Oregon's Ultra Liberal Abortion Laws Add Taxpayer-funded Abortions for Illegals

[Swordsmyth]

Oregon taxpayers have paid for 52,000 abortions over the past 14 years, at a cost of $24 million. In a bill passed last week by the Oregon Senate (which Democratic Governor Kate Brown is expected to sign), the state has gone even further. The measure, known as the Reproductive Health Equity Act of 2017, requires that insurance companies provide coverage for abortions, and also entitles illegal aliens to free abortion services.
These abortions, for both citizens and illegals, would be “free,” or taxpayer-funded, even if they are not considered medically necessary. The taxpayers will pay for the procedures, even if they are purely elective. Late-term as well as sex-selection abortions will be among these “free” procedures.

More at: https://www.thenewamerican.com/culture/faith-and-morals/item/26429-oregon-s-ultra-liberal-abortion-laws-add-taxpayer-funded-abortions-for-illegals

[Zippyjuan]

Fewer anchor babies?

[Swordsmyth]

Fewer anchor babies?
So your solution to Illegals is to KILL them?
If you think we are going to get conned into agreeing with such a heinous statement you will be disappointed.

[Swordsmyth]

Fewer anchor babies?

Could somebody please NEG Rep zippy for this it won't let me.

[Zippyjuan]

So your solution to Illegals is to KILL them?
If you think we are going to get conned into agreeing with such a heinous statement you will be disappointed.

I am not offering it as a solution to anything. Nor do I suggest that the government should be involved on either side of the abortion issue- either banning it or subsidizing it.

[euphemia]

Fewer anchor babies?

It seems cruel, doesn't it?

[juleswin]

So your solution to Illegals is to KILL them?
If you think we are going to get conned into agreeing with such a heinous statement you will be disappointed.

I could never understand why people who are against welfare are at the same time so anti abortion. Terminate these unwanted pregnancies at a lowly cost of about $5k and save the tax payers 100s of thousands of dollars in potential welfare program spending. Even the cost of an abortion is cheaper than the cost of child birth.

And here is the kicker, after a few abortions on the same woman, the woman is likely to have a complication that would make her sterile preventing her from having any more babies in the future. In one fell swoop, you will end potential generations of welfare recipients. If it was left(not a Freudian slip :)) to me, abortion would be free and available to anybody who is collecting welfare.

[juleswin]

Wait a minute, the math doesn't sound right. $24m for 52k abortions, so that gives you $400 ish for one abortion. Did they just give out plan B to these girls? that is definitely not the kind of abortion I have in mind.

[Swordsmyth]

I am not offering it as a solution to anything. Nor do I suggest that the government should be involved on either side of the abortion issue- either banning it or subsidizing it.
You were implying we should support it.

[Zippyjuan]

Funding contraception can help reduce abortion.

https://www.guttmacher.org/fact-sheet/state-facts-about-abortion-oregon


As of 2014, some 60% of women having abortions were in their 20s; 59% had one or more children; 86% were unmarried; 75% were economically disadvantaged; and 62% reported a religious affiliation.[1] No racial or ethnic group made up a majority: Some 39% of women obtaining abortions were white, 28% were black, 25% were Hispanic and 9% were of other racial or ethnic backgrounds.[1]

[Swordsmyth]

I could never understand why people who are against welfare are at the same time so anti abortion. Terminate these unwanted pregnancies at a lowly cost of about $5k and save the tax payers 100s of thousands of dollars in potential welfare program spending. Even the cost of an abortion is cheaper than the cost of child birth.

And here is the kicker, after a few abortions on the same woman, the woman is likely to have a complication that would make her sterile preventing her from having any more babies in the future. In one fell swoop, you will end potential generations of welfare recipients. If it was left(not a Freudian slip :)) to me, abortion would be free and available to anybody who is collecting welfare.

Eugenics is evil buster.
Stop welfare don't KILL the poor.

[oyarde]

I am not offering it as a solution to anything. Nor do I suggest that the government should be involved on either side of the abortion issue- either banning it or subsidizing it.

Thats how I see it . I should not be forced to pay for it .

[juleswin]

Eugenics is evil buster.
Stop welfare don't KILL the poor.

Abortion is not illegal and they might use a hanger and cause way more damage that an abortion technique. Also, there is no force, they want to the abortion and you can provide it for them. It is a win, win situation.

I think one of the worst thing that can happen to a child's psyche is to allow them to grow up in a house where they are not loved. And some of these children are going to experience that if you deny them the abortion. I say you just play along, pay for the cheaper option and in time the problem would mostly resolve itself.

Ending welfare is not possible, these people vote and they would vote you the hell out if anyone tried to remove their welfare.

[phill4paul]

Abortion is not illegal and they might use a hanger and cause way more damage that an abortion technique. Also, there is no force, they want to the abortion and you can provide it for them. It is a win, win situation.

I think one of the worst thing that can happen to a child's psyche is to allow them to grow up in a house where they are not loved. And some of these children are going to experience that if you deny them the abortion. I say you just play along, pay for the cheaper option and in time the problem would mostly resolve itself.

Ending welfare is not possible, these people vote and they would vote you the hell out if anyone tried to remove their welfare.

That's the biggest bunch of malarkey I've seen spewed on Ron Paul forums.

You did realize you were posting on RPF's right?


Pro-life libertarians have a vital task to perform: to persuade the many abortion-supporting libertarians of the contradiction between abortion and individual liberty; and, to sever the mistaken connection in many minds between individual freedom and the "right" to extinguish individual life.


And in abortion, the statists have found a most effective method of obliterating freedom: obliterating the individual. Abortion on demand is the ultimate State tyranny; the State simply declares that certain classes of human beings are not persons, and therefore not entitled to the protection of the law.


Our lives, also, are a whole from the beginning at fertilization until death. To deny any part of liberty, or to deny liberty to any particular class of individuals, diminishes the freedom of all. For libertarians to support such an abridgement of the right to live free is unconscionable.

http://www.l4l.org/library/bepro-rp.html

Calling taxation, which is applied through force, to fund that which one fundamentally disagrees with, is in no way a win-win.

[Zippyjuan]

https://www.lp.org/platform/


1.5 Abortion

Recognizing that abortion is a sensitive issue and that people can hold good-faith views on all sides, we believe that government should be kept out of the matter, leaving the question to each person for their conscientious consideration.



1.1 Self-Ownership

Individuals own their bodies and have rights over them that other individuals, groups, and governments may not violate. Individuals have the freedom and responsibility to decide what they knowingly and voluntarily consume, and what risks they accept to their own health, finances, safety, or life.

Not everybody will agree with this.

[Swordsmyth]

https://www.lp.org/platform/
Even to Liberaltarians Oregon's policy is somewhat evil.

[phill4paul]

https://www.lp.org/platform/

The libertarian party has always been divided on the issue. My personal views on the matter align with Dr. Paul, that it is the taking of a sentient life depriving it of a chance at life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. In the end all libertarians should agree that any form of taxation that in anyway may provide for abortion is not within the scope of the government.

[agitator]

Abortion should be legal until 18th birthday.

[juleswin]

That's the biggest bunch of malarkey I've seen spewed on Ron Paul forums.

You did realize you were posting on RPF's right?







http://www.l4l.org/library/bepro-rp.html

Calling taxation, which is applied through force, to fund that which one fundamentally disagrees with, is in no way a win-win.

It is a difficult position to defend but juleswin "the internet character" is looking at it from a purely logical point of view. Right now, your tax money is being used to create more and more high probability tax dependent citizens. Your tax money is being taken by force to fund these programs whether you fundamentally disagree with it or not.

Now, Juleswin have come up with a policy that one:

Would reduce the tax theft by govt
Secondly, prevent the creation of another child who would be facing a difficult childhood.
Nobody is being encourage or forced to get an abortion, only those will and requesting help would be helped. Full information about risks would be given etc
At the end of the day, the tax payers win a little by keeping more of his money, the woman is relieved of the responsibility of taking care of a child they never wanted. So a win/win?

Just for the record, this is the idea juleswin have come up with just from my observation of society. It is in no way libertarian or conservative. Btw, the reason juleswin is even saying this is because none of you guys know the real me, this is just the unfiltered me on the internet throwing ideas on the wall to see what people think about it. The real me would completely object to such measures of reducing welfare program. I might even call you a eugenicist if you brought it up around me :)

[Swordsmyth]

It is a difficult position to defend but juleswin "the internet character" is looking at it from a purely logical point of view. Right now, your tax money is being used to create more and more high probability tax dependent citizens. Your tax money is being taken by force to fund these programs whether you fundamentally disagree with it or not.

Now, Juleswin have come up with a policy that one:

Would reduce the tax theft by govt
Secondly, prevent the creation of another child who would be facing a difficult childhood.
Nobody is being encourage or forced to get an abortion, only those will and requesting help would be helped. Full information about risks would be given etc
At the end of the day, the tax payers win a little by keeping more of his money, the woman is relieved of the responsibility of taking care of a child they never wanted. So a win/win?

Just for the record, this is the idea juleswin have come up with just from my observation of society. It is in no way libertarian or conservative. Btw, the reason juleswin is even saying this is because none of you guys know the real me, this is just the unfiltered me on the internet throwing ideas on the wall to see what people think about it. The real me would completely object to such measures of reducing welfare program. I might even call you a eugenicist if you brought it up around me :)

Wow I have never seen someone confess to being a TROLL before.

[juleswin]

Wow I have never seen someone confess to being a TROLL before.

http://files.abovetopsecret.com/files/img/wa58bcaf18.gif

[phill4paul]

It is a difficult position to defend but juleswin "the internet character" is looking at it from a purely logical point of view. Right now, your tax money is being used to create more and more high probability tax dependent citizens. Your tax money is being taken by force to fund these programs whether you fundamentally disagree with it or not.

Now, Juleswin have come up with a policy that one:

Would reduce the tax theft by govt
Secondly, prevent the creation of another child who would be facing a difficult childhood.
Nobody is being encourage or forced to get an abortion, only those will and requesting help would be helped. Full information about risks would be given etc
At the end of the day, the tax payers win a little by keeping more of his money, the woman is relieved of the responsibility of taking care of a child they never wanted. So a win/win?

Just for the record, this is the idea juleswin have come up with just from my observation of society. It is in no way libertarian or conservative. Btw, the reason juleswin is even saying this is because none of you guys know the real me, this is just the unfiltered me on the internet throwing ideas on the wall to see what people think about it. The real me would completely object to such measures of reducing welfare program. I might even call you a eugenicist if you brought it up around me :)

Taxation is theft. To then use those taxes to perform fundamentally antithetical purposes is worse than theft. It corrupts the very soul when one is made accomplice to murder. Feel free to create spread sheets and statistical charts. It doesn't change the principle of the laws of nature and of nature's God.

[Zippyjuan]

It is a difficult position to defend but juleswin "the internet character" is looking at it from a purely logical point of view. Right now, your tax money is being used to create more and more high probability tax dependent citizens. Your tax money is being taken by force to fund these programs whether you fundamentally disagree with it or not.

Now, Juleswin have come up with a policy that one:

Would reduce the tax theft by govt
Secondly, prevent the creation of another child who would be facing a difficult childhood.
Nobody is being encourage or forced to get an abortion, only those will and requesting help would be helped. Full information about risks would be given etc
At the end of the day, the tax payers win a little by keeping more of his money, the woman is relieved of the responsibility of taking care of a child they never wanted. So a win/win?

Just for the record, this is the idea juleswin have come up with just from my observation of society. It is in no way libertarian or conservative. Btw, the reason juleswin is even saying this is because none of you guys know the real me, this is just the unfiltered me on the internet throwing ideas on the wall to see what people think about it. The real me would completely object to such measures of reducing welfare program. I might even call you a eugenicist if you brought it up around me :)

Some have suggested that the decline we have seen in serious crime rates was due to the legalization of abortion.

http://www.nber.org/papers/w8004


We offer evidence that legalized abortion has contributed significantly to recent crime reductions. Crime began to fall roughly 18 years after abortion legalization. The 5 states that allowed abortion in 1970 experienced declines earlier than the rest of the nation, which legalized in 1973 with Roe v. Wade. States with high abortion rates in the 1970s and 1980s experienced greater crime reductions in the 1990s. In high abortion states, only arrests of those born after abortion legalization fall relative to low abortion states. Legalized abortion appears to account for as much as 50 percent of the recent drop in crime.

http://www.data360.org/temp/dsg237_500_350.jpg

[juleswin]

Taxation is theft. To then use those taxes to perform fundamentally antithetical purposes is worse than theft. It corrupts the very soul when one is made accomplice to murder. Feel free to create spread sheets and statistical charts. It doesn't change the principle of the laws of nature and of nature's God.

Wake up mate, you have been made an accomplice to murder for decades now. The wars in the middle east actually kill people who want to live, people who did nothing to you. That in my opinion is 1000x worse than what I am proposing.

I am not even trying to convince you of anything, just bringing out some of the crazier ideas that I have in my head but have no courage to bring it up to anyone that respects me in real life.

[Swordsmyth]

Wake up mate, you have been made an accomplice to murder for decades now. The wars in the middle east actually kill people who want to live, people who did nothing to you. That in my opinion is 1000x worse than what I am proposing.
Two wrongs don't make a right.


I am not even trying to convince you of anything, just bringing out some of the crazier ideas that I have in my head but have no courage to bring it up to anyone that respects me in real life.
That is your instincts telling that it is WRONG.

[juleswin]

Some have suggested that the decline we have seen in serious crime rates was due to the legalization of abortion.

http://www.nber.org/papers/w8004



http://www.data360.org/temp/dsg237_500_350.jpg

I am not quite sure what the graph you showed me have to do with abortion but if voluntary, uncoerced abortions reduces crime rates while using less govt force than before, then how can I be against it?

[phill4paul]

Wake up mate, you have been made an accomplice to murder for decades now. The wars in the middle east actually kill people who want to live, people who did nothing to you. That in my opinion is 1000x worse than what I am proposing.

I am not even trying to convince you of anything, just bringing out some of the crazier ideas that I have in my head but have no courage to bring it up to anyone that respects me in real life.

I admit that I had been made an accomplice. Which is why I know now of what I am saying. I've been an agorist going on 6-7 years now. So unless you have done the same don't speak down to me or equate me with your herd.

[phill4paul]

I am not quite sure what the graph you showed me have to do with abortion but if voluntary, uncoerced abortions reduces crime rates while using less govt force than before, then how can I be against it?

Paid for by voluntary, uncoersed donations?

[euphemia]

The first inalienable right is the right to life.

Poor people love their kids. I am all about personal responsibility. I am also a realistic. There are people in the US who were born in their homes up in Appalaciha who have never been off the mountain. There is no work or industry there. You can drive through a lot of places in Kentucky and West Virginia and see that people have no inside plumbing. Moving them somewhere else would be unwise and unhelpful. What do you do about jobs for people who live on property their family has owned for generations?

Some of you are positively drunk on the mainstream media and believe every single stereotype they put out. Not all poor families are in projects and on welfare cradle to grave.

The very first inalienable right is the right to life. Nobody can take that away, and I will never be in favor of government or anyone else invading a woman's womb with the intent to kill her unborn baby just because she doesn't have the income to meet someone's arbitrary standard. If you want to do something about unplanned pregnancy, stop warehousing people in housing projects and government schools.

[William Tell]

Some have suggested that the decline we have seen in serious crime rates was due to the legalization of abortion.

http://www.nber.org/papers/w8004



http://www.data360.org/temp/dsg237_500_350.jpg
LOL the same Zippy who screams correlation does not = causation on all the vaccine/gmo etc data does a 180. :D

[phill4paul]

LOL the same Zippy who screams correlation does not = causation on all the vaccine/gmo etc data does a 180. :D

He said "some." I dislike that Zip won't put his own person on display, but that seems to be the path he has chosen. It's garnered him a lot of negativity. I don't mind his postings. Or CPUd for that matter. I don't mind seeing alternative media. It provides opposition research for me. When I go on FB I actually know what these idiots are on about. It's not like I see it on the tube. FWIW.

[juleswin]

I admit that I had been made an accomplice. Which is why I know now of what I am saying. I've been an agorist going on 6-7 years now. So unless you have done the same don't speak down to me or equate me with your herd.

I am a bit confused here, why is the fact that you are now an agorist have anything to do with the discussion? Do you pay taxes? if yes, then that is all that matters.

[euphemia]

Right now, your tax money is being used to create more and more high probability tax dependent citizens. Your tax money is being taken by force to fund these programs whether you fundamentally disagree with it or not.

This much is true, but if freedom is the issue, then the government should not ever be involved or have any kind of say, and it should certainly not confiscate the money of citizens to finance it.


Now, Juleswin have come up with a policy that one:

Would reduce the tax theft by govt
Secondly, prevent the creation of another child who would be facing a difficult childhood.
Nobody is being encourage or forced to get an abortion, only those will and requesting help would be helped. Full information about risks would be given etc
At the end of the day, the tax payers win a little by keeping more of his money, the woman is relieved of the responsibility of taking care of a child they never wanted. So a win/win?

Just for the record, this is the idea juleswin have come up with just from my observation of society. It is in no way libertarian or conservative. Btw, the reason juleswin is even saying this is because none of you guys know the real me, this is just the unfiltered me on the internet throwing ideas on the wall to see what people think about it. The real me would completely object to such measures of reducing welfare program. I might even call you a eugenicist if you brought it up around me :)

So why do you place the burden on the woman who carries and bears the child? Why not snip the fathers? That is a much cheaper option. What you suggest is not exactly equal protection under the law.

[phill4paul]

I am a bit confused here, why is the fact that you are now an agorist have anything to do with the discussion? Do you pay taxes? if yes, then that is all that matters.

Let me make it easy for you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agorism

As an conscientous objector I absolutely do not. In any way I am able. Do you?

Do you pay income tax to state or Fed? Are you happy that your tithing goes to murder infants, murder people abroad, murder those that received injustice at the hand of a "Justice?"

You go on being your bad ass self. And point a finger at me. You're out your head.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2F_hGwD26g

[juleswin]

This much is true, but if freedom is the issue, then the government should not ever be involved or have any kind of say, and it should certainly not confiscate the money of citizens to finance it.



So why do you place the burden on the woman who carries and bears the child? Why not snip the fathers? That is a much cheaper option. What you suggest is not exactly equal protection under the law.

Freedom is the issue but freedom achieved through reducing govt welfare in form of funding of abortions. Sounds insane? yes it sounds insane to me but logically it makes sense.

Also, the problem with snipping the males is that it would be almost impossible to convince them to get sterilized. The woman on the other hand would comes in voluntarily cos she needs medical attention. Obviously, the goal is not to sterilize anyone but complications happens and do it enough times and you might just end up getting sterilized

[phill4paul]

Freedom is the issue but freedom achieved through reducing govt welfare in form of funding of abortions. Sounds insane? yes it sounds insane to me but logically it makes sense.

Also, the problem with snipping the males is that it would be almost impossible to convince them to get sterilized. The woman on the other hand would comes in voluntarily cos she needs medical attention. Obviously, the goal is not to sterilize anyone but complications happens and do it enough times and you might just end up getting sterilized

You do very bad at expressing logic. Give it up. Take a night off, Ed.

[juleswin]

Let me make it easy for you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agorism

As an conscientous objector I absolutely do not. In any way I am able. Do you?

Do you pay income tax to state or Fed? Are you happy that your tithing goes to murder infants, murder people abroad, murder those that received injustice at the hand of a "Justice?"

Yes I pay taxes and no I am not happy with what is being done with my tax money. Sadly unlike you, there is very little I can do to fight this injustice. On the other hand I can sit around thinking up new ways to reduce govt force on me. I know very well that abortions would never be offered freely like I imagine with my policy, this is mainly a thought experiment.


You go on being your bad ass self. And point a finger at me. You're out your head.

Why would you say that to me? I am not pretending to be a bad ass nor am I point fingers at anyone

[Feeding the Abscess]

So why do you place the burden on the woman who carries and bears the child? Why not snip the fathers? That is a much cheaper option. What you suggest is not exactly equal protection under the law.

A woman can get impregnated by another, non-sterilized man.