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Anti Federalist
06-05-2017, 11:36 AM
Theocracy Advances in Utah… And Soon Near You, Too

https://ericpetersautos.com/2017/06/05/theocracy-advances-utah-soon-near/

By eric - June 5, 2017

The slippery slope argument gets mocked a lot – but here’s another case that proves the point:

Utah has just done what thinking brains knew was inevitably coming. The state government has nearly halved the legal threshold defining what risibly continues to be called “drunk” driving (see here) from the iffy .08 BAC (Blood Alcohol Content) to the downright ridiculous .05 BAC.

This is a level that many people reach after as few as two – or fewer – drinks. One is enough, in some cases, to risk a “bust.”

Thus, Utah’s fatwa – and that is the right word, as this business comes out of religion – Mormonism – which would outlaw all drinking, period, if it had the power to do so – is a hop-skip away from outlawing any drinking prior to driving. Because with a threshold that low and Breathalyzer machines so notoriously inaccurate, the margin for error is much too close for comfort. To have even a single beer or glass of wine with dinner is to risk being arrested and caged for “drunk” driving.

Some, of course, will agree that any alcohol consumption prior to driving is “dangerous” and that prohibition, period, is a good thing.

But that is a far hop from “drunk” driving – a hysterical, over-the-top characterization. It is also a mere opinion – a moralizing and meretricious one – not supported by any facts.

The legislation’s author, a Mormon Republican and graduate of the Mormon college, Brigham Young University, is a guy named Norm Thurston. He piously assures us that “the public safety impact of this is so compelling that it’s worth doing.”

Lies. Pious lies. But nonetheless.

There is no evidence at all that people are “drunk” or even meaningfully impaired at the .05 BAC level.

It is an outrageous, religious effort to mask religious proscription as a public safety issue.

But it is also nothing new, really.

It is critical to understand that it isn’t necessary – in Utah or anywhere else in the Homeland – to establish that a person’s driving is impaired by alcohol to convict him of “drunk” driving. Even under the soon-to-be-old .08 BAC standard. It is enough to establish that the accused has a BAC of .08 – or .05 or whatever arbitrary number is selected. For those under the age of 21 – not legal age to drink but old enough to be held fully legally accountable for any crime they commit – it is zero BAC. Any trace of alcohol – and you are guilty of “drunk” driving.

One’s actual driving, in all cases, being 100 percent legally irrelevant.

The arresting cop might admit under cross-examination, that the accused’s handling of his car was faultless. No wandering or weaving; no erratic anything. That he had no reason to suspect him of not being in full possession of his faculties or question whether he was in complete control of his vehicle.

It doesn’t matter.

The victim – whoops, “drunk” driver – simply had the bad luck to roll up on a Fourth Amendment Free Zone. That is, a random/dragnet checkpoint at which every driver must submit to a search/interrogation and testing, absent any individualized suspicion or other probable cause.

The cop can then demand – under a loathsome piece of totalitarian doublespeak called implied consent – that the driver submit to a breath test upon command. To self-incriminate. He must prove his innocence, rather than the cop (and later, the prosecutor) having to prove guilt.

And he must comply – or else (in most states) face immediate arrest and forfeiture of his driver’s license as the punishment for declining to consent to provide evidence that can and will be used against him in court.

Before .08, it was generally necessary to have some evidence of impairment before – key thing! – a cop had the legal authority – probable cause – to pull a specific individual over. The fact of erratic driving having been established, the next step was to establish why.

Note the horse before cart arrangement.

Since .08 became the national standard – and the Fourth and Fifth Amendments got thrown in the Woods – the cart has been placed foursquare in front of the horse.

Now comes Utah to take away the horse and maybe soon the cart, too.

Point-oh-eight as a universal standard was hugely questionable on scientific grounds. People vary in both their abilities behind the wheel and their ability to process alcohol. It is a fact that some people with a zero-point-zero BAC are far less able as drivers than other people with point-zero-five or even point-zero-eight.

It is hugely politically incorrect to even broach this topic. But the fact remains.

Which is why .08 had to be implemented using random checkpoints without any pretense of individualized suspicion. To stop using a person’s actual driving as the measure of their impairment.

The object of the exercise has become convicting as many people as possible of “drunk” driving – notwithstanding that they aren’t “drunk” (except perhaps by hard-core Baptist and Mormon standards, for whom a whiff of cough syrup is sufficient) and their driving can’t be faulted.

So, erect random checkpoints and “bust” people not on account of their driving but only because they happen to have “x” BAC – the number deliberately dumbed-down and under-posted, very much as speed limits are and for exactly the same reasons.

Which are, of course, to give the government the flimsiest of reasons to “bust” as many victims as possible in order to both extract as much money as possible and to instill in them a servile fear of The Law. Turn everyone into a “drunk” driver. Just as almost everyone who is driving is also a “speeder.”

The Utah decree doubles down on this and be advised – it’s not just Utah.

Or soon won’t be.

Some history: It was Utah that first enacted the .08 BAC standard. They did it because of the Mormon aversion to drink – period. But other states – and the Feds – soon realized what a cash (and control) cow the .08 standard could be potentially be for them and – shazam! – the whole country adopted .08 as the universal standard.

Can it be doubted that the same forces of ka-ching! (and clink) are as operative as ever? That “mothers” (read: very well-paid full-time agitators who work hand in hand with the government and insurance mafia) will demand the new .05 standard?

For “safety” and “the children”?

Actually, for the money and the power. It has always been thus, but it’s getting worse. A farce, except one with teeth.

Ender
06-05-2017, 12:03 PM
Utah's not too bright in this area but neither are the rest of the states. The answer is to get rid of all these types of laws; if a person causes an accident, prosecute him with the full extent of the law- until then it's nobody business.

Anti Federalist
06-05-2017, 12:06 PM
Utah's not too bright in this area but neither are the rest of the states. The answer is to get rid of all these types of laws; if a person causes an accident, prosecute him with the full extent of the law- until then it's nobody business.

Well, I agree, but you do realize what a minority position we hold?

Ender
06-05-2017, 12:08 PM
Well, I agree, but you do realize what a minority position we hold?

Absolutely.

Tywysog Cymru
06-05-2017, 12:40 PM
I've had friends who live in Utah who say that it's a terrible place if you like alcohol.

euphemia
06-05-2017, 12:47 PM
But isn't this something we agree should be a state's rights issue? Does a state have the right to make the laws the majority of people want? If people don't like it, they can move away, or so libertarians would say.

Adding: There are still dry counties in Tennessee, including where Jack Daniels is made. They have no problem with people owning alcohol. They just don't allow it to be sold in that county.

Anti Federalist
06-05-2017, 12:59 PM
But isn't this something we agree should be a state's rights issue? Does a state have the right to make the laws the majority of people want? If people don't like it, they can move away, or so libertarians would say.

Adding: There are still dry counties in Tennessee, including where Jack Daniels is made. They have no problem with people owning alcohol. They just don't allow it to be sold in that county.

Sure...but:


Some history: It was Utah that first enacted the .08 BAC standard. They did it because of the Mormon aversion to drink – period. But other states – and the Feds – soon realized what a cash (and control) cow the .08 standard could be potentially be for them and – shazam! – the whole country adopted .08 as the universal standard.

TER
06-05-2017, 01:01 PM
But isn't this something we agree should be a state's rights issue? Does a state have the right to make the laws the majority of people want? If people don't like it, they can move away, or so libertarians would say.

Adding: There are still dry counties in Tennessee, including where Jack Daniels is made. They have no problem with people owning alcohol. They just don't allow it to be sold in that county.

I agree that this is a state issue. The OP's warning is much appreciated however.

Interestingly, my parish priest was just re-located to Utah. Apparently, many Mormons there are converting to Orthodox Christianity. Hopefully, in good time, that ridiculous and discrimantory law will be changed.

Ender
06-05-2017, 01:02 PM
I've had friends who live in Utah who say that it's a terrible place if you like alcohol.

I'm in Utah and there are tons of clubs here and lots of drinkers- driving laws are a bit over the top.

PierzStyx
06-05-2017, 01:16 PM
That is the problem with democracy. Eventually the majority forces rules on you that you don't like.

TER
06-05-2017, 01:40 PM
For any interested:

From a couple of weeks ago:

Utah’s Largest Newspaper Interviews Mormon to Orthodox Christian Convert (https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/orthodoxyandheterodoxy/2017/05/13/utah-mormon-orthodox-convert/)

Here is a nice website for those interested: http://mormontoorthodox.blogspot.com

RJB
06-05-2017, 03:11 PM
Think Mormonism is bad for enjoying a drink, check out Sharia Law.

Anti Federalist
06-05-2017, 03:19 PM
Think Mormonism is bad for enjoying a drink, check out Sharia Law.

True.

Iowa
06-05-2017, 04:18 PM
I like government here, here, and here, but not there, there, and there.

acptulsa
06-05-2017, 06:04 PM
I like government here, here, and here, but not there, there, and there.

I'm a libertarian. I may like what you like, but I can do without it here and here, knowing as I do that it will overstep its bounds eventually. Another way can be found.

And I certainly don't like the central government involving itself in one single thing that can be done on a more local level. Period. Even if I like what Washington does in a particular area, and dislike what most states or counties do, I would rather see the counties do it.

kpitcher
06-05-2017, 09:23 PM
Think Mormonism is bad for enjoying a drink, check out Sharia Law.

Is there a single place in the US that has any of the major dictates of sharia law? Currently it's the big bad boogieman of Islam I keep seeing.

I think self driving cars, or the ability to turn on auto drive, will be a boon for drunks. They can get wasted and still get home.

Probably will also cause a big increase in car detailing.

RJB
06-05-2017, 09:28 PM
Is there a single place in the US that has any of the major dictates of sharia law? Currently it's the big bad boogieman of Islam I keep seeing.

. I just compared one group of statist teatotalers to another. Why are you so defensive?

otherone
06-05-2017, 09:30 PM
[QUOTE=acptulsa;6478946 Even if I like what Washington does in a particular area, and dislike what most states or counties do, I would rather see the counties do it.[/QUOTE]

The individual has far greater individual power at a local level. Don't like something? Talk to your neighbors.
The premise of the Bill of Rights was to protect individuals from having their Rights violated by local government. Didn't turn out that way.

Zippyjuan
06-06-2017, 01:45 PM
There are Christians who would also like to impose their view of morality on all people in their state/ country.

Schifference
06-06-2017, 02:43 PM
That is the problem with democracy. Eventually the majority forces rules on you that you don't like.

I don't think it takes a majority. All it takes is a couple of lawmakers in power that agree.

heavenlyboy34
06-06-2017, 02:54 PM
But isn't this something we agree should be a state's rights issue? Does a state have the right to make the laws the majority of people want? If people don't like it, they can move away, or so libertarians would say.

Adding: There are still dry counties in Tennessee, including where Jack Daniels is made. They have no problem with people owning alcohol. They just don't allow it to be sold in that county.
Nope. There are some things that aren't even the business of states. Real libertarians argue that there is no crime if there is no victim.

ProBlue33
06-06-2017, 06:10 PM
Drunk driving is problem for sure, but I can tell you I have had couple of glasses of wine on a Sunday night, and driving home I am way more alert than after a night shift I just worked. Other factors are more dangerous than people having 2-3 drinks these days. Other medications, both legal and illegal, being over tired, or having intense family problems that cause extreme stress, texting while driving, these are all much bigger problems than blowing .08% that impair reaction times and regular driving skills.

I don't get drunk so I am not worried, but it's an overreaction to people who get plastered and kill somebody while driving.

euphemia
06-06-2017, 06:35 PM
Sure...but:

So, if the state adopts a standard, people who don't like it can move. I get accused of being anti-liberty, but I'm really not. Some people don't want to share the roads with people who have been drinking, including me. We don't drive unless we are stone cold sober. Drinkers don't have to live in Utah, and they should work hard to get liberty people elected in other states, right? Utah can decide what to do about the lost revenue from alcohol taxes and lower population and insurance companies can decide how much to charge in states that have higher BAC standards. That's a straight up liberty position.

euphemia
06-06-2017, 06:39 PM
Interestingly, my parish priest was just re-located to Utah. Apparently, many Mormons there are converting to Orthodox Christianity. Hopefully, in good time, that ridiculous and discrimantory law will be changed.

Actually, this is the straighter liberty position. Liberty is not defined by laws. It is experienced by the transformation of the heart

acptulsa
06-06-2017, 08:05 PM
There are Christians who would also like to impose their view of morality on all people in their state/ country.

Um, don't look now, Zippy, but that's what the OP said. Or should we chalk you up as one of the people arguing that Mormons are not Christians?

Trolling must be interesting. On the one hand, the official line is to define all Christians as crazy fundamentalists, whether they are or not. On the other hand, the intolerance of crazy fundamentalists is a very useful tool for the totalitarians you work for. They have seized on the blathering of busybody nosepokers to excuse their power grabs, and their curtailments of liberty, and their legislated gifts to the insurance lobbies, and their drumming up of business for their lawyer friends for centuries.

How do you know when to stop demonizing the fundamentalists and support their bleating for more and uglier laws? After all, every scrap of totalitarianism, including your bosses at the Federal Reserve, that this nation has ever seen has come from fundamentalist-style intolerance and fundamentalist-style misplaced faith in authority. Do your bosses micromanage that for you, or do you have to figure out how to balance the Christian-bashing against the usefulness of fundamentalist idiots yourself?

Speaking of which...


So, if the state adopts a standard, people who don't like it can move. I get accused of being anti-liberty, but I'm really not. Some people don't want to share the roads with people who have been drinking, including me... That's a straight up liberty position.

One, the federal government has been having a fine time setting these standards. And they make no distinction between Manhattan, where it is hard to drive and impossible to find an abandoned piece of pavement, and the middle of the Mojave. Where, I may add, you never drive. And this sort of intolerant bleating, and failure to make such distinctions, is exactly what Washington uses to make that very sort of power grab.

Two, you have no idea whatsoever what the blood alcohol content of the drivers around you is. You barely understand the rules of the road well enough to accurately identify who is driving well, and you have no way on earth to tell which of the drivers around you is sober as a judge and which isn't. None. You can possibly detect which are driving erratically and which are not. But you have no clue in this world whether the erratic ones are driving so haphazardly because of alcohol, or smartphone surfing, or coo-cooing babies, or epileptic fits, or anything else.

What you are doing is getting your panties in a knot over an activity which, 99 44/100% of the time you cannot even detect unless and until it bites you in the ass. And by whining about it, harmless as it generally is where your little life is concerned, you are merely encouraging the powers that be to turn this nation into a straight up, full on, 'Surrender your papers' totalitarian dictatorship.

That is not a liberty position. That is brainlessly and irresponsibly misusing free speech to promote jackboot heels because one is brainwashed into getting their nose out of joint over something that is usually nothing.

For, you see, running Nazi checkpoints takes officers off the beat, where they could be spotting erratic and incompetent drivers from every cause, not just for some arbitrary standard that pays the state well to enforce and gets the local lawyers business too. But, you see, they run those checkpoints because it allows them to bust and bleed dry people who are no danger to you or anyone else, and who are driving so flawlessly that even their trained officers cannot tell they had a drop without the aid of a breathalizer. And it's the intolerant whining of people brainwashed into considering everyone who had a drink but can drive safely anyway an actual problem that allows them to get away with it. If you were to think about it, instead of having a kneejerk reaction in defense of your conditioning, you just might see that the patrol and observe strategy would actually keep you safer, too.

The straight up liberty position is try to stop the incompetent and dangerous before they do harm, and hold them accountable if they do harm, whether their incompetence comes from a bottle, or a smartphone, or a screaming brat, or whatever. The straight up liberty position is leave the competent and not dangerous alone, even if they have done things that evening which would leave another person incompetent and dangerous. Do not lay in wait to punish the overachievers, thereby depleting the forces you could array to spot the real problems. Do not set up overmanned checkpoints to ferret out the violators of the letter of the law who are operating safely and sanely to otherwise go undetected, and deploy your forces wide enough to spot the real threats to the public safety.

You have a lot of faith in checkpoints and arbitrary standards, much like faith in rites and clergy and dogma. Faith is better placed in God, and your mind is better kept clear and your panties unknotted so you can spot any erratic driver--even the sober ones. For, you see, not every drinker will kill you, and not every sober person won't kill you--and forgetting that can get you dead.


Liberty is not defined by laws. It is experienced by the transformation of the heart

So sit there and tell us laws cannot curtail liberty, and see what kind of reaction you get. I dare you.

euphemia
06-06-2017, 08:29 PM
The Constitution recognizes the several states, not counties or municipalities.

phill4paul
06-06-2017, 08:33 PM
The Constitution recognizes the several states, not counties or municipalities.

If I got my municipality to go for full automatic weapons carry I'm fine. Right?

acptulsa
06-06-2017, 08:38 PM
The Constitution recognizes the several states, not counties or municipalities.

So why are you bleating and repeating the hysteria which the federal government uses as an excuse to withhold federal highway funds to states which refuse to toe the federal line on subjects like this?

euphemia
06-06-2017, 09:03 PM
So why are you bleating and repeating the hysteria which the federal government uses as an excuse to withhold federal highway funds to states which refuse to toe the federal line on subjects like this?

Just putting some thoughts out there. Stop putting words in my mouth. I just put out the Constitutional concept of states rights. The Constitution would make way for a state standard. Not wanting to share the roads with drunks is not the same as being in favor of federal standards. Reading comprehension is the key. I would suggest that a drunk or distracted driver interferes with my right to travel.

Anti Federalist
06-06-2017, 09:22 PM
I would suggest that a drunk or distracted driver interferes with my right to travel.

Even when there is no visible or demonstrable impairment?

What about an aged driver?

Or a tired driver?

And according to the powers that be, you have no "right" to drive.

However, I believe that you do.

Therefore so does everybody else.

Therefore you cannot restrict, inhibit or rescind that right, nor go trolling for violators with roadblocks and other such nonsense nor can you convict without proof and a trial where the accused is presumed innocent.

nikcers
06-06-2017, 09:32 PM
We live in a defacto theocracy due to unrestrained power that has gravitated to the executive branch and the complete circumvention of fair elections. The worst part is we have no way of holding the establishment accountable, they have no skin in the game, they are on both tickets regardless who get's nominated by the political parties.

phill4paul
06-06-2017, 09:41 PM
I'll not be going to Utah. Might pass through, won't spend the night.

TheCount
06-06-2017, 11:18 PM
Sharia law bad Biblical law good

acptulsa
06-07-2017, 08:10 AM
Stop putting words in my mouth.

I didn't pen the crap you regurgitate. I think you have me confused with some MADD employee.

Point your baseless accusations somewhere else.