Memorial Day

[helmuth_hubener]

I've never cared about Memorial Day before, but this time around I find myself caring a little. Thinking about it. Thinking about death.

I know this is libertarianly-politically--incorrect. You know what? I don't care. Many of these men were fighting for freedom. Come in here, Pierz, et. al. and tell me how wrong all Patriots and Warriors of all times and all conflicts in all history have been. Because you know what? I don't give a hoot. I really don't. You think you're all "edgy" for having the Secret Knowledge about how lame and sheep-like all soldiers really are.

You know what's edgy?

Storming into certain death. That's pretty edgy. Sprinting onto Normandy beach. Charging into a wall of bayonets at Balaclava. These soldiers hadn't read their Rothbard; they weren't politically pure and perfect? Oh brother. We may have better theory, but we need to man up and learn a thing or two about practice. About courage. I'll give the Nazis respect too, for that matter. Everybody was fighting for freedom. As best they knew how.

So props to them, man.

Props to them.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJQ3DWpvdC0



And here's a Ron Paul version for you, too:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XDpcZlkcaA

But please be aware: marching around waving signs will not be enough.

It has never been enough.

And it never will be.

[otherone]

I've never cared about Memorial Day before, but this time around I find myself caring a little. Thinking about it. Thinking about death.

I know this is libertarianly-politically--incorrect. You know what? I don't care. Many of these men were fighting for freedom. Come in here, Pierz, et. al. and tell me how wrong all Patriots and Warriors of all times and all conflicts in all history have been. Because you know what? I don't give a hoot. I really don't. You think you're all "edgy" for having the Secret Knowledge about how lame and sheep-like all soldiers really are.

You know what's edgy?

Storming into certain death. That's pretty edgy. Sprinting onto Normandy beach. Charging into a wall of bayonets at Balaclava. These soldiers hadn't read their Rothbard; they weren't politically pure and perfect? Oh brother. We may have better theory, but we need to man up and learn a thing or two about practice. About courage. I'll give the Nazis respect too, for that matter. Everybody was fighting for freedom. As best they knew how.

So props to them, man.

Props to them.


sniff. I love you, man.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZ8zUcg_Lks

[oyarde]

In my family Decoration Day was a time all of the woman went to the cemeteries to replace the winter decorations with more spring and summer type flowers . Since they were there already they just did everyone else in the families as well . There would be Fall decorations , Christmas decorations , Winter ,Spring/Summer decorations , Independence .

[VIDEODROME]

https://media.defense.gov/2016/Apr/19/2001517367/-1/-1/0/160415-F-NI493-038.JPG

[RJB]

They speak of the tragedy of innocent women and children killed in war, but what of all the millions of innocent teenage boys, suited up in a uniform and thrown into the meat grinder over the millennia as their governments took advantage of their hormone surge in the name of patriotism.

Some conflicts have been needed. Most were not.

[sam1952]

I've always liked this song;


https://youtu.be/ydWhRObVxrM

[charrob]

The late and lamented Rudy Rummel, a professor at the University of Hawaii and the acknowledged expert on the phenomenon of “democide,” estimated that governments murdered more than 260 million human beings in the 20th century alone. That figure excludes – and is six times as large as – military casualties in the century’s wars.
(http://original.antiwar.com/thomas-knapp/2017/05/28/this-memorial-day-remember-the-victims-of-democide/)

Those who choose to go into the military are not children. They are adults who have chosen to murder as their profession or train others to murder as a profession. Personally I find it disgusting. As adults they should be personally responsible and research their chosen profession before entering it to verify they are on the right side of history. They are not fighting for our freedom and never have; they are fighting for their buddy standing next to them and the profits of Goldman Sachs and Lockheed Martin.

I would argue that except for the Revolution and the War of 1812, every single war fought by the U.S. military has not only been completely unnecessary but also resulted from U.S. aggression, not defense. That includes the so-called 'great war' of ww2. There is nothing heroic about any of this crap. It's sick and it's twisted.

I do have more sympathy for those who were drafted against their will when the draft was in place. But for those who volunteer? I'm disgusted by their choice.

As far as courage, imho it takes a lot more courage to stand up against the State and refuse orders then it does in implementing the State's wars and all the carnage that results from that implementation.




The Troops Don't Defend Our Freedoms
(http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-articles/2017/may/29/the-troops-dont-defend-our-freedoms/)
How often do we hear the claim that American troops “defend our freedoms”? The claim is made often by U.S. officials and is echoed far and wide across the land by television commentators, newspaper columnists, public-school teachers, and many others. It's even a common assertion that emanates on Sundays from many church pulpits.

Unfortunately, it just isn't so. In fact, the situation is the exact opposite — the troops serve as the primary instrument by which both our freedoms and well-being are threatened.
[...]

[euphemia]

i want to remember people who consider liberty a cause worth dying for.

[oyarde]

There are more soldier memorials in Indianapolis than any american city other than district of columbia . I remember seeing them all when I was younger and still went to the city on occasion .

[helmuth_hubener]

sniff. I love you, man. Heil Hitler! Yes! You are so edgy! Awesome!


Those who choose to go into the military are not children. They are adults who have chosen to murder as their profession or train others to murder as a profession. Personally I find it disgusting. As adults they should be personally responsible and research their chosen profession before entering it to verify they are on the right side of history. They are not fighting for our freedom and never have; they are fighting for their buddy standing next to them and the profits of Goldman Sachs and Lockheed Martin. Never? Really, never? Oh, wait, there's exceptions:


I would argue that except for the Revolution and the War of 1812, every single war fought by the U.S. military has not only been completely unnecessary but also resulted from U.S. aggression, not defense. So it was OK to be a soldier in the American Revolution, eh? And in the War of 1812, too!

So soldiers were not murdering anyone in those wars? In those wars they were not "professional murderers."

Oh, or maybe all of the murderers were on one side and none on the other? Maybe in both these cases one side of the war was completely Just and Holy in everything it did and the other was the Avatar of Satan. What a remarkable miracle of history.

Look, I am with you on the morality of war, and the lack of convenient loopholes where morality does not apply and so you can just go murder and rape but somehow it's not murder and rape because "war."

I am also with you on this:


As far as courage, imho it takes a lot more courage to stand up against the State and refuse orders then it does in implementing the State's wars

My point is, more productive (perhaps) than pointing fingers and condemning everyone who exercised their courage in a less-than-ideal way (which is everyone in all of history), would be to get some of that courage for ourselves.

The State has a super-weapon that it uses against, well, everyone, called Ideology. These young men thought that they were fighting to preserve their homes, their ways of life, their countries, and their families. They thought that if they went out and took on the danger themselves that they could protect their (weaker) wives and children from having to bear the brunt of it. All of these are noble sentiments.

We have that same super-weapon, you know. Libertarianism is an ideology. Can you guarantee that we, like our mirror-image cousin ideology Communism, will not someday inspire horrifying wars with mountains of bodies? That we will not try to reach our Libertarian Heaven by stacking bodies high and higher to build our Babel Tower? Especially since you've already let the camel in the tent with the American Revolutionary War? All our Libertarian Leaders will have to do is label and frame any and all coming conflicts as American Revolution II, III, etc.

[Swordsmyth]

John 15:13 “Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.”

King James Version (KJV)


Those who truly believed they were doing their duty to the "right" are clean, the blood is on the hands of those who knew better and sent them to kill and die.

[charrob]

Those who choose to go into the military are not children. They are adults who have chosen to murder as their profession or train others to murder as a profession. Personally I find it disgusting. As adults they should be personally responsible and research their chosen profession before entering it to verify they are on the right side of history. They are not fighting for our freedom and never have; they are fighting for their buddy standing next to them and the profits of Goldman Sachs and Lockheed Martin.

Never? Really, never? Oh, wait, there's exceptions:


I would argue that except for the Revolution and the War of 1812, every single war fought by the U.S. military has not only been completely unnecessary but also resulted from U.S. aggression, not defense.

So it was OK to be a soldier in the American Revolution, eh? And in the War of 1812, too!

As mentioned above: “As adults they should be personally responsible and research their chosen profession before entering it to verify they are on the right side of history.”

This isn't rocket science. It doesn't take a genius to comprehend that every war fought since the beginning of this country has had nothing to do with “defense” and everything to do with “offense”. All it takes is an open mind and a tiny effort to read about U.S. military history.

We have 3 young members in my family who volunteered for military service. They didn't do it out of a sense of patriotism or defending our country. They did it because their buddies in high school took the military route, because without a college degree there are no living wage jobs, and because they could get a free college education by joining. They joined because it gave them a hand up to be successful in life. Imho that is no excuse to join an organization that is irreparably harming millions of innocent people, and destroying entire countries and cultures.

I admit, there are those who join, who didn't do their homework, and afterwards realize that the organization they joined has little to do with defending our country. I deeply respect individuals in groups like “Iraq Veterans against the War” who speak out against U.S militarism and acknowledge their mistake in joining. But all those who join are not in this group.

Only about 5% of the U.S. Military ever sees combat. By far most “train” foreigners with U.S. weaponry and tactics and, by some estimates, they train up to 800,000 foreigners per year. A real bonanza for the U.S. weapon's industry.

I have no problem with “Defense”. I have a real problem with “Offense” and the training of armies all over the planet.



The State has a super-weapon that it uses against, well, everyone, called Ideology. These young men thought that they were fighting to preserve their homes, their ways of life, their countries, and their families. They thought that if they went out and took on the danger themselves that they could protect their (weaker) wives and children from having to bear the brunt of it. All of these are noble sentiments.

I would argue that before, when there was a draft, that men accepted their fate and followed the orders of the State. I would argue many of these men would not have volunteered but only did so under threats by the State. I would argue that since there is no more draft, many have volunteered for reasons other than patriotism. I suppose there are a small number of people who volunteer now for the reasons you state, but I cannot accept action based on ignorance is noble.

I agree: volunteering to defend one's country against active aggression is noble. Syrian soldiers currently fighting to retake the al-tanf border of Syria with Iraq against U.S. military threats and even U.S. military attacks which recently killed a number of Syrian soldiers is noble: they are defending the sovereignty of Syrian territory against U.S. military aggression. So tell me: how can I possibly see the U.S. military's action to kill Syrian soldiers near al-tanf as noble? Certainly in the minds of these U.S. soldiers they are quite aware that their action in no way was defending U.S. citizens. IF they were courageous and noble as you assume, these soldiers would protest these unconstitutional unnecessary aggressive actions of violence and refuse to implement them: where is their protest? Where is their courage? I hear pindrops.

In current life in the U.S., I am constantly bombarded with “thanking the troops”, “honoring the troops”, and on and on. In a local restaurant I am asked to “donate to the troops”. Every Father's Day I take my Dad to a baseball game and, in addition to the National Anthem at the beginning of the game, in the middle of the game members of the military walk on the field as fans are asked to honor them and sing God Bless America; during this the big display board at the stadium is covered with words of “honor” for the troops. This is major league baseball. I was waiting in line to get an xray recently and a member of the military was waiting in line behind me: people already sitting in the waiting room got up and walked over to shake his hand and thank him for his service. And it goes on and on and on and on. IF people would end the hypocrisy and own up to the truth that U.S. troops are NOT fighting for our freedom, that they are actually HARMING our freedom, joining the military might become such an anathema that endless classes of kids joining the military might finally come to an end. Calling their decision to fight in current wars noble only perpetuates the insanity.

Nobility is based on the context of the war that the soldier fights in. Commendations for those who fight for self-determination and defense should be carefully, but vocally, separated from those who, through ignorance or indifference, fight for aggression and offense. It's up to us, as a society, to tell the latter group the truth.

[jllundqu]

Take your self righteous bullshit to some place that cares. ANYONE who wants contribute to the cause of liberty is welcome here. I'm a veteran and Ron Paul changed my life.

Go to hell if you can't respect that.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yP8q7fc7TR4

[jllundqu]

Oh yeah... that small little fact that RON PAUL was in the military too...

[shakey1]

A holiday glorifying war?... find it hard to swallow somehow.

http://www.upworthy.com/mesmerizing-photographs-of-soldiers-faces-before-and-after-a-war

[Zippyjuan]

Military can be for good as well as evil. Disarming yourself will not bring about increased liberty. Just don't blindly follow anybody- politicians or military leaders.

[charrob]

Take your self righteous bull$#@! to some place that cares. ANYONE who wants contribute to the cause of liberty is welcome here. I'm a veteran and Ron Paul changed my life.

Go to hell if you can't respect that.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yP8q7fc7TR4


Of course anyone who wants to contribute to the cause of Liberty is welcome here. The question is: does the current U.S. military contribute to the cause of Liberty, or does it harm the cause of Liberty and harm our safety and security as a people? I would argue the latter.

Ron Paul himself stated yesterday that members of the U.S. military should definitely not be thought of as "heroes" but as victims of bad policy. Daniel McAdams and Ron Paul argued against the flag-waving jingoistic bullshit that occurs in this country every memorial day: Here you go for Ron Paul's words: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=We4eFlYNSAs&t=6m54s

Of course families grieve and go to cemetarys of their loved ones. Ron Paul and Daniel McAdams argues that that's all Memorial Day should be: is something quiet among families of the dead. It shouldn't be endless heroism, flag waving, and thousands of Rolling Thunder Motorcyclists roaring into D.C. with their flags waving. Ron Paul argues against this.

[otherone]

Yes! You are so edgy! Awesome!



One anthem is as good as the next, HH.
Whatever gets the blood up.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

America has become a society of the self-deluded and upside down. War is peace. Safety is liberty. Freedom isn't free.

It was only a couple of decades ago that the higher ups denied why we go to war. Liberty people and others attempted to expose them with cites about oil.

Now, the masses don't speak of riches, but the higher ups do. How times have changed.




"Iraq possesses huge reserves of oil and gas-reserves I'd love Chevron to have access to." --Kenneth Derr, Chevron CEO, 1998

"Of course it’s about oil, it is very much about oil, and we cannot really deny that." --Gen. John Abizaid

"I am saddened that is it politically inconvenient to acknowledge what everyone knows: the Iraq war is largely about oil." --Alan Greenspan (from his book and Face the Nation)

"Well, we're in Libya because of oil." --Congressman Ed Markey

John Bolton referred to "the critical oil and natural gas producing region that we fought so many wars to try and protect our economy from the adverse impact of losing that supply or having it available only at very high prices."

Def. Secretary Chuck Hegel acknowledged oil by saying, "We are not there for figs."

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

I'm on Yahoo Answers, replying to young people considering joining organizations in law enforcement, government, military etc. I even made an RPF thread about it here: (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?503048-RPFers-Join-me-on-Yahoo-Anwers-Reply-to-questions-on-jury-nullifying-CPS-joining-cops-etc).


Here is one of my semi-standard replies, including my citation evidence in the comments of my reply (https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20170106072916AAPt2BN)


Yahoo Questioner Jessica wants to know about joining the military




My answer:

Best Answer: Jessica,

I am providing a somewhat different perspective than other people here. Even Gen. George Patton said, "If everyone is thinking alike, then someone isn't thinking."

There are some pros in joining the military, but there are also some cons. This is true with most decisions. Here are some facts from peer reviewed research and the Veteran's Administration (VA). (See comments for citations.)

Vets are more like to be homeless than civilians. Female vets/wives of vets are more likely than female civilians to suffer domestic violence (70% vets vs. 27% civilian). Vets are more likely than civilians to get PTSD (30% vs. 7.5%). This even applies to reservists and National Guard.

A peer reviewed study called "Veteran Status, Marital Infidelity, and Divorce," found these results:

Married vets in extramarital affairs--32%
Civilians in extramarital affairs--17%

Vet divorce rate--39%
Civilian divorce rate--29%


Another study found compulsive sexual behavior (sex addiction, excessive masturbation, etc.) higher for vets:

Male military vets--17%
Civilian population--5%


The respected pro military publication called MILITARY TIMES recently said:

"Veterans are more likely to contract cancer, battle heart disease and face substance abuse problems than their civilian peers,..."
"And more veterans suffer from heart disease (5.5 percent to 3.4 percent) and cancer (11 to 10) than their civilian peers."

Another Veteran's Administration quote said:

"McCarthy and colleagues compared suicide rates among Veterans to that of the general population.
Overall, for men and women combined, suicide risks among Veterans Health patients were 66% higher than those observed in the general US population."


Another peer reviewed study said:

"Rates of problem (PG) and pathological gambling (PAG) are much higher among veterans, military recruits and those currently in the military compared with rates in the general population
1,15"



A recent government report on military drug use said:

"Although illicit drug use is lower among U.S. military personnel than among civilians, heavy alcohol and tobacco use, and especially prescription drug abuse, are much more prevalent and are on the rise."

***************************************...


You have heard the marketing slogan "fighting for our freedoms," but top US officials acknowledge that wars like Iraq are about oil. Gen. John Abizaid said, "Of course it’s about oil, it is very much about oil, and we cannot really deny that." Iraq's oil industry was nationalized before the war; it was open to global merchants after the war. Business interests got rich while US taxpayers paid the bill.

There were also no weapons of mass destruction (WMD) as described by the US government. Former Central Intelligence Director Michael Morrell apologized to Gen. Colin Powell, saying, "We said he [Hussein] has chemical weapons, he has a biological weapons production capability, and he is restarting his nuclear weapons program. We were wrong on all 3 of those."

You generally have much less freedom and choice in the military. This ranges from food in industrial-sized cans to a MOS (job) you did not pick. You will sign a multi-year contract (up to 8 years) unseen in practically any other civilian sector (who signs anything for 8 years in this day-and-age?).

Sure, you will get a 10% restaurant discount and NFL football halftime salutes; however, did you know that the NFL shows are sponsored and paid for by the military itself? It's not really the grass roots cheering it appears to be. The real issue vets often face is the perennial problem of being ignored by the VA. Yes, every politician promises to fix this, but once you've done your military time, you're forgotten.

I am for constitutionally defending the country; however, the US military has sadly gotten away from this with massive global interventions.

It is for the all these reasons that I suggest you think long & hard about your decision. You can't get these things back. Regrets are never in the beginning. Regrets are always in the end.

See the list below (comments section) for organizations of vets and others, some of whom once supported the US military, but are now critical. See statistics and other figures cited in my reply.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

I would not shun anybody drawn to a liberty cause, regardless of their background. I basically find 4 types of military people on Yahoo answers:


Diehards who simplistically see the world as good and evil

Vets and current military who see more complexity, but continue on

Vets and military who are indifferent or just go along in life

Vets who see the reality and have somewhat, to completely, rejected it



The best hope is the fourth group. You can find them on this forum.

Charrob mentioned Iraqi Vets Against the War. Here are some similar or related organizations:




Arlington Memorials
Chelsea Manning Support Network
Courage to Resist
GI Rights Hotline
Golden Rule Boat Project
Iraq Water Project
Iraqi Student Project
King Condemned US Wars International Awareness Campaign
Korea Peace Campaign
Military Families Speak Out
The National Network Opposing the Militarization of Youth (NNOMY)
National Priorites Project
Peace In Our Times
School of the Americas Watch
Stop These Wars
United National Antiwar Coalition
Vietnam Agent Orange Relief & Responsibility Campaign
Vietnam Vets Against the War