Why the H-1B Visa Racket Should Be Abolished, Not Reformed

[Brian4Liberty]

Why the H-1B Visa Racket Should Be Abolished, Not Reformed (https://ricochet.com/424854/why-the-h-1b-visa-racket-should-be-abolished-not-reformed/)
By Ilana Mercer - April 24, 2017


Billionaire businessman Marc Cuban insists that the H-1B visa racket is a feature of the vaunted American free market. This is nonsense on stilts. It can’t go unchallenged. Another billionaire, our president, has ordered that the H-1B program be reformed. This, too, is disappointing. You’ll see why.

First, let’s correct Mr. Cuban: America has not a free economy, but a mixed-economy. State and markets are intertwined. Trade, including trade in labor, is not free; it’s regulated to the hilt. If anything, the labyrinth of work visas is an example of a government-business cartel in operation.

The H-1B permit, in particular, is part of that state-sponsored visa system. The primary H-1B hogs—Infosys (and another eight, sister Indian firms), Microsoft, and Intel—import labor with what are grants of government privilege. Duly, the corporations that hog H-1Bs act like incorrigibly corrupt rent seekers. Not only do they get to replace the American worker, but they get to do so at his expense.

Here’s how:

Globally, a series of sordid liaisons ensures that American workers are left high and dry. Through the programs of the International Trade Administration, the Export-Import Bank, the Overseas Private Investment Corporation, the International Monetary Fund, and other oink-operations, the taxpaying American worker is forced to subsidize and underwrite the investment risks of the very corporations that have given him the boot.

Domestically, the partnership with the State amounts to a subsidy to business at the expense of the taxpayer. See, corporations in our democratic welfare state externalize their employment costs onto the taxpayers.

So while public property is property funded by taxpayers through expropriated taxes; belongs to taxpayers; is to be managed for their benefit—at least one million additional immigrants a year, including recipients of the H-1B visa, are allowed the free use of taxpayer-supported infrastructure and amenities. Every new arrival avails himself of public works such as roads, hospitals, parks, libraries, schools, and welfare.

Does this epitomize the classical liberal idea of laissez-faire?

Moreover, chain migration or family unification means every H-1B visa recruit is a ticket for an entire tribe. The initial entrant—the meal ticket—will pay his way. The honor system not being an especially strong value in the Third World, the rest of the clan will be America’s problem. More often than not, chain-migration entrants become wards of the American taxpayer.

Spreading like gravy over a tablecloth, this rapid, inorganic population growth is detrimental to all ecosystems: natural, social and political.
...
Never as dumb as the local reporters, the likes of Bill Gates, Steve Ballmer, Mark Zuckerberg, and Marc Cuban are certainly as detached.

Barricaded in their obscenely lavish compounds—from the comfort of their monster mansions—these social engineers don’t experience the “environmental impacts of rapid urban expansion”; the destruction of verdant open spaces and farmland; the decrease in the quality of the water we drink and air we breathe; the increase in traffic and traffic accidents; air pollution; the cellblock-like housing erected to accommodate their imported IT workers and extended families; the delicate bouquet of amped-up waste management and associated seepages.

For locals, this lamentable state means an inability to afford homes in a market in which property prices have been artificially inflated. Young couples lineup to view tiny apartments. They dream of that picket fence no more. (And our “stupid leaders,” to quote the president before he joined leadership, wonder why birthrates are so low!)
...
Alas, since the high-tech titans can externalize their employment costs on to the community; because corporations are subsidized at every turn by their victims—they need not bring in the best.
...
Theoretically, the H-1B program could be completely abolished and all needed Einsteins imported through the O-1 program. (Why, even future first ladies would stand a chance under the business category of the O-1A visa, as a wealth-generating supermodel could certainly qualify.)

Now you understand my disappointment. In his April 18 Executive Order, President Trump promised to merely reform a program that needs abolishing. That is if “Hire American” means anything to anybody anymore.
...
More: https://ricochet.com/424854/why-the-h-1b-visa-racket-should-be-abolished-not-reformed/

[Madison320]

"The H-1B permit, in particular, is part of that state-sponsored visa system. The primary H-1B hogs—Infosys (and another eight, sister Indian firms), Microsoft, and Intel—import labor with what are grants of government privilege.


I agree. The H1B program should be available to any business that wants hire a qualified foreigner, not just certain ones who are granted government favors.

[dannno]

I agree. The H1B program should be available to any business that wants hire a qualified foreigner, not just certain ones who are granted government favors.

That's a horrible idea, if you read the rest of the article you would know that. I've been saying for while now that the H1-B program is part of a huge subsidy program and I had people arguing against me. I'm glad this article was posted to back me up.

Until the subsidies and welfare state ends, there is no benefit to opening up immigration.

People used to come here for the opportunity to succeed on their own and for the American culture. Now they are coming for the benefits and the money and the subsidies.

If you pay a woman $500 to go on a date with you and then complain when she doesn't love you, isn't that your fault? We are paying these people to come here then expecting that they are going to love our country.. they don't love our country, they love the free shit. Not only that, they are fucking socialists at nearly twice the rate as native born Americans.

I'm all about open borders, in a free society, but I'm not about to help destroy western civilization by promoting open borders and immigration when we have a huge welfare state.

[TheCount]

I agree, we should implement a permanent residency program for skilled workers rather than just a temporary visa.

[Danke]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyPFpJg8wMY

[Madison320]

That's a horrible idea, if you read the rest of the article you would know that. I've been saying for while now that the H1-B program is part of a huge subsidy program and I had people arguing against me. I'm glad this article was posted to back me up.

Until the subsidies and welfare state ends, there is no benefit to opening up immigration.

People used to come here for the opportunity to succeed on their own and for the American culture. Now they are coming for the benefits and the money and the subsidies.

If you pay a woman $500 to go on a date with you and then complain when she doesn't love you, isn't that your fault? We are paying these people to come here then expecting that they are going to love our country.. they don't love our country, they love the free $#@!. Not only that, they are $#@!ing socialists at nearly twice the rate as native born Americans.

I'm all about open borders, in a free society, but I'm not about to help destroy western civilization by promoting open borders and immigration when we have a huge welfare state.

We already beat this dead horse so let's not get into the details again. Would you at least agree that eliminating the H1B program is WAY down on the list of our problems? If we completely eliminate the H1B program, you won't notice squat either way. We've got not just one, but dozens of massive elephants in the room and we're worried about a speck of dust. How about SS, Medicare, Defense spending, tax reform, minimum wage, money printing, socialized healthcare (Obamacare or Trumpcare), etc, etc.

A combination of xenophobia and hatred of big business has turned this from a teensy tiny molehill to the Himalayas.

[dannno]

We already beat this dead horse so let's not get into the details again. Would you at least agree that eliminating the H1B program is WAY down on the list of our problems? If we completely eliminate the H1B program, you won't notice squat either way. We've got not just one, but dozens of massive elephants in the room and we're worried about a speck of dust. How about SS, Medicare, Defense spending, tax reform, minimum wage, money printing, socialized healthcare (Obamacare or Trumpcare), etc, etc.

A combination of xenophobia and hatred of big business has turned this from a teensy tiny molehill to the Himalayas.

No it's not high on my priority list, but I'm not going to complain about Trump curtailing the program either.

[Brian4Liberty]

A combination of xenophobia and hatred of big business has turned this from a teensy tiny molehill to the Himalayas.

Every individual will have different reasons. While those reasons you identify can be factors for some people, unemployment, overcrowding, traffic and housing prices are also effecting people. Those impact people directly, which tends to make them bigger issues. Just like healthcare has become a big issue, as it is hitting people right in the wallet.


No it's not high on my priority list, but I'm not going to complain about Trump curtailing the program either.

But it was high on the priority of most Trump voters, and even some non-Trump voters. It also brought him some swing voters, who might normally vote Democrat.

[charrob]

The H-1B Visa Racket Should Be Abolished, Not Reformed: totally agree.

[kahless]

Where is the upside?

- Foreigner workers preferred over American workers. Some tech companies 70-80% engineers are H-1B. It is an anti-American worker program.
- Low salaries of H-1B's drive down the salaries of American workers. Less spending money in the pockets of Americans = less money put back into the economy.
- Displacement of American workers for foreign workers places more American workers on unemployment and welfare benefits.
- The H-1B's life is subject to a sponsor and lives in the country at the whim of the employer. Effectively a slave that must comply to any demand out of fear of being sent back home.
- Institutionalized age discrimination. Most H-1Bs are under 30, and since younger workers are cheaper than older ones in both wages and health care costs, employers use the H-1B program to avoid hiring older (35+) Americans.

[oyarde]

I see no need for it or upside for taxpayers .

[jmdrake]

Why the H-1B Visa Racket Should Be Abolished, Not Reformed (https://ricochet.com/424854/why-the-h-1b-visa-racket-should-be-abolished-not-reformed/)
By Ilana Mercer - April 24, 2017


That's a horrible idea, if you read the rest of the article you would know that. I've been saying for while now that the H1-B program is part of a huge subsidy program and I had people arguing against me. I'm glad this article was posted to back me up.

Until the subsidies and welfare state ends, there is no benefit to opening up immigration.

People used to come here for the opportunity to succeed on their own and for the American culture. Now they are coming for the benefits and the money and the subsidies.

If you pay a woman $500 to go on a date with you and then complain when she doesn't love you, isn't that your fault? We are paying these people to come here then expecting that they are going to love our country.. they don't love our country, they love the free $#@!. Not only that, they are $#@!ing socialists at nearly twice the rate as native born Americans.

I'm all about open borders, in a free society, but I'm not about to help destroy western civilization by promoting open borders and immigration when we have a huge welfare state.

Sorry but the stupidity of this article hurts my neurons. This part in particular.

So while public property is property funded by taxpayers through expropriated taxes; belongs to taxpayers; is to be managed for their benefit—at least one million additional immigrants a year, including recipients of the H-1B visa, are allowed the free use of taxpayer-supported infrastructure and amenities. Every new arrival avails himself of public works such as roads, hospitals, parks, libraries, schools, and welfare.

Ummm....H1B visa holders pay taxes. Many of them pay more taxes than the average native born American. And most of them send their kids to private schools because, frankly, American public schools suck. I can see complaining about immigrants using welfare or the public school system. But complaining about immigrants using "muh roads?" Seriously?

Okay. Substitute "tourist" for "H1B visa holders." It would be wrong to give tourists food stamps. But should you keep tourists off the roads? If they are driving, they buy gas and pay gas taxes. If they are paying someone else to drive, like an Uber driver, the person they hired is buying gas and paying gas taxes. Maybe you can make the argument that tourists are using "welfare" when they use public transportation so....ban tourism? :rolleyes:

Really, anti immigrant conservatives are as bad as statist liberals. Once in a family law class the teacher brought up "octomom" (the lady that had 8 kids at once.) Most of the class was like "Oh....that's so terrible! That should be banned!" Mind you everyone was all for any type of "alternative" family. Two guys or two gals? Perfect. Family having 8 kids? Terrible! Their reasoning "They are using up our precious resources." I was like "But what if they aren't on welfare?" One particularly angry witch droned "I used to work in a public school and I saw how all these kids come in and they use this and that." so I said "And if the kids are home schooled?" She was like "They use our electricity!" So I countered "And if they are off grid?" Then she shut up.

I'm seeing the same thing with the anti immigrant crowd. Sure, I don't want people coming here and getting on welfare. But getting on our roads? Are you freaking kidding me?

Oh, AND THE ARTICLE FLAT OUT LIED BY STATING THAT H1B VISA PARTICIPANTS GET WELFARE!

Stupid article. Worst I have ever read on the subject.

[Ender]

Sorry but the stupidity of this article hurts my neurons. This part in particular.

So while public property is property funded by taxpayers through expropriated taxes; belongs to taxpayers; is to be managed for their benefit—at least one million additional immigrants a year, including recipients of the H-1B visa, are allowed the free use of taxpayer-supported infrastructure and amenities. Every new arrival avails himself of public works such as roads, hospitals, parks, libraries, schools, and welfare.

Ummm....H1B visa holders pay taxes. Many of them pay more taxes than the average native born American. And most of them send their kids to private schools because, frankly, American public schools suck. I can see complaining about immigrants using welfare or the public school system. But complaining about immigrants using "muh roads?" Seriously?

Okay. Substitute "tourist" for "H1B visa holders." It would be wrong to give tourists food stamps. But should you keep tourists off the roads? If they are driving, they buy gas and pay gas taxes. If they are paying someone else to drive, like an Uber driver, the person they hired is buying gas and paying gas taxes. Maybe you can make the argument that tourists are using "welfare" when they use public transportation so....ban tourism? :rolleyes:

Really, anti immigrant conservatives are as bad as statist liberals. Once in a family law class the teacher brought up "octomom" (the lady that had 8 kids at once.) Most of the class was like "Oh....that's so terrible! That should be banned!" Mind you everyone was all for any type of "alternative" family. Two guys or two gals? Perfect. Family having 8 kids? Terrible! Their reasoning "They are using up our precious resources." I was like "But what if they aren't on welfare?" One particularly angry witch droned "I used to work in a public school and I saw how all these kids come in and they use this and that." so I said "And if the kids are home schooled?" She was like "They use our electricity!" So I countered "And if they are off grid?" Then she shut up.

I'm seeing the same thing with the anti immigrant crowd. Sure, I don't want people coming here and getting on welfare. But getting on our roads? Are you freaking kidding me?

Oh, AND THE ARTICLE FLAT OUT LIED BY STATING THAT H1B VISA PARTICIPANTS GET WELFARE!

Stupid article. Worst I have ever read on the subject.

AMEN.

[Madison320]

Where is the upside?

- Foreigner workers preferred over American workers. Some tech companies 70-80% engineers are H-1B. It is an anti-American worker program.
- Low salaries of H-1B's drive down the salaries of American workers. Less spending money in the pockets of Americans = less money put back into the economy.
- Displacement of American workers for foreign workers places more American workers on unemployment and welfare benefits.
- The H-1B's life is subject to a sponsor and lives in the country at the whim of the employer. Effectively a slave that must comply to any demand out of fear of being sent back home.
- Institutionalized age discrimination. Most H-1Bs are under 30, and since younger workers are cheaper than older ones in both wages and health care costs, employers use the H-1B program to avoid hiring older (35+) Americans.

You're using classic, flawed Keynesian logic. You're only looking at one side of the equation, the pay of the US worker. If that were true we could simply raise the minimum wage to $1000 an hour and we'd all be rich. The other sides of the equation are the business owners and the consumers. Cheaper, more productive workers allow producers to charge less for their products, which is good for consumers. It also allows businesses to compete globally.

You and many others here need to read Henry Hazlitt's Economics in One Lesson. It's basically the broken window fallacy.

[Madison320]

Oh, AND THE ARTICLE FLAT OUT LIED BY STATING THAT H1B VISA PARTICIPANTS GET WELFARE!



Yeah, that part was especially stupid. By definition H1Bs aren't on welfare. Duh.

[juleswin]

I see no need for it or upside for taxpayers .

Which tax payers? business people, shareholders, customers who get more affordable goods and services are tax payers too and I think they see an upside or else they won't be asking for it.

[kahless]

You're using classic, flawed Keynesian logic. You're only looking at one side of the equation, the pay of the US worker. If that were true we could simply raise the minimum wage to $1000 an hour and we'd all be rich. The other sides of the equation are the business owners and the consumers. Cheaper, more productive workers allow producers to charge less for their products, which is good for consumers. It also allows businesses to compete globally.

You and many others here need to read Henry Hazlitt's Economics in One Lesson. It's basically the broken window fallacy.

I only believe in Libertarian values within what is the geographic borders of the US. Unless you are an internationalist Oligarch, outside of that, it and globalism is retarded for any chance at individual liberty for the majority of people in this geographic region.

[Madison320]

Which tax payers? business people, shareholders, customers who get more affordable goods and services are tax payers too and I think they see an upside or else they won't be asking for it.

Yeah, but they're rich people, therefore sub human and have no rights.

[kahless]

Yeah, but they're rich people, therefore sub human and have no rights.

Another exaggeration about the opposition. The issue is really about the immorality of the elites which clearly is being ignored and their propaganda propagated here. Prior to the 80s they would be called out for their immorality and some corporations would actually serve the people here and their community equally with the quest for profits. But now it is solely about majority shareholder value over everything no matter the consequences and without any allegiance to the people of this country. God forbid you call out their immorality since people have now been brainwashed to believe that some how makes you against free markets, some how promoting regulations or a Communist.

The globalists and those supporting these policies are the enemy of the majority of Americans more than any foreign power.

[Madison320]

Another exaggeration about the opposition. The issue is really about the immorality of the elites which clearly is being ignored and their propaganda propagated here. Prior to the 80s they would be called out for their immorality and some corporations would actually serve the people here and their community equally with the quest for profits. But now it is solely about majority shareholder value over everything no matter the consequences and without any allegiance to the people of this country. God forbid you call out their immorality since people have now been brainwashed to believe that some how makes you against free markets, some how promoting regulations or a Communist.

The globalists and those supporting these policies are the enemy of the majority of Americans more than any foreign power.

I don't mind you "calling out" corporations for their "immorality". What I hate is when you support government power to infringe on my natural rights. In this case the right of a business to hire who it wants, which affects me indirectly because now I have to pay more for stuff.

[oyarde]

Does anyone really think jobs would go unfilled or undone without this program ? I am not seeing that .I ran many different large specialized facilities without ever using any and I have only been out of that for a year.

[juleswin]

I don't mind you "calling out" corporations for their "immorality". What I hate is when you support government power to infringe on my natural rights. In this case the right of a business to hire who it wants, which affects me indirectly because now I have to pay more for stuff.

What a irony coming from people who supported Trump in the election. A man with next to zero morals who would do just about anything to attain the almighty dollar. He outsourced production for his clothing line, palled around with crooked Hillary and rapey Bill, used eminent domain to boot old ladies out of their homes, owned and profited from casinos, used bankruptcies to evade paying his debts, worked with the mob etc etc.

People who supported Trump on this site shouldn't be lecturing anyone about the morality of elites. You lack the minimum amount of credibility need to have that discussion.

[kahless]

I don't mind you "calling out" corporations for their "immorality". What I hate is when you support government power to infringe on my natural rights. In this case the right of a business to hire who it wants, which affects me indirectly because now I have to pay more for stuff.

There is no logic to the argument we cannot find good people out out the 325 million people that live in the US. By your reasoning we should just open up the immigration flood gates to allow a billion people to come here to be slave laborers over Americans since Madison320 is effectively anti-American citizen.

Yep, lets screw over all the people that live here for that purpose for you and the elites regardless of the wide ranging ramifications. No your policy will not destabilize the economy or create civil unrest. :rolleyes:

[kahless]

What a irony coming from people who supported Trump in the election. A man with next to zero morals who would do just about anything to attain the almighty dollar. He outsourced production for his clothing line, palled around with crooked Hillary and rapey Bill, used eminent domain to boot old ladies out of their homes, owned and profited from casinos, used bankruptcies to evade paying his debts, worked with the mob etc etc.

People who supported Trump on this site shouldn't be lecturing anyone about the morality of elites. You lack the minimum amount of credibility need to have that discussion.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend. It was preferable to over look Trump's immorality on some issues given those that oppose him were of greater immorality including those that promoted policies that favored foreigners over American citizens.

Since there were no other competing choices I would painfully make that decision again. Getting something rather than nothing is still better than the alternative which is the opposite of everything I prefer.

[oyarde]

Which tax payers? business people, shareholders, customers who get more affordable goods and services are tax payers too and I think they see an upside or else they won't be asking for it.

Best I can tell , people in the US are not buying many products made in the US . I am in one of the last few remaining areas heavily involved in Mnfg and there is only one Co here employing these people .

[PierzStyx]

So while public property is property funded by taxpayers through expropriated taxes; belongs to taxpayers; is to be managed for their benefit—at least one million additional immigrants a year, including recipients of the H-1B visa, are allowed the free use of taxpayer-supported infrastructure and amenities. Every new arrival avails himself of public works such as roads, hospitals, parks, libraries, schools, and welfare.

Does this epitomize the classical liberal idea of laissez-faire?

So the solution to having a mixed economy is to lean even harder into socialism and big government? Sorry, that is stupid. Immigration regulation by the government is nothing but socialism because it is the limiting of the free market through government regulations on the free movement of human capital. Supporting government regulation of immigration isn't just unconstitutional but it is socialism and if you support it then you are a socialist.

The rest of the article is equally idiotic. Workers willing to work for less is a feature of the free market that keeps production low and point of sale costs even lower. Calling to "hire/buy American" and prevent economic competition among laborers is the kind of protectionist bullcrap that comes spewing out of Bernie Sander's mouth than any supporter of the free market. Companies aren't using this as a system to take advantage of anyone, if anything they're using the only outlet they have to escape burdensome government regulation. You have a problem with the government? Then get rid of the government and stop trying to force your dieals and beliefs about how teh world should work on everyone else through it, otherwise you're just another Progressive.

[PierzStyx]

Response sin bold.


There is no logic to the argument we cannot find good people out out the 325 million people that live in the US. By your reasoning we should just open up the immigration flood gates to allow a billion people to come here to be slave laborers over Americans since Madison320 is effectively anti-American citizen.

What kind of idiocy are you even talking about?

Yep, lets screw over all the people that live here for that purpose for you and the elites regardless of the wide ranging ramifications. No your policy will not destabilize the economy or create civil unrest. :rolleyes:

What a great example of doublethink. The only elites I see are the ones that favor giving regulatory power to control society over to a few politically connected powers and taking that power out of the hands of private people and businesses. In other words, people like you serve the needs of the elites quite well. Removing form the government the power to control who goes where when, why, and how would be shrinking the power of the State and taking power out of the hands of the elites.

[juleswin]

Best I can tell , people in the US are not buying many products made in the US . I am in one of the last few remaining areas heavily involved in Mnfg and there is only one Co here employing these people .

I sympathize with anyone in a situation you described where people's livelihood is dependent on one company that could go overseas(or something like that). But how is this any kind of reply to the question I asked you?

[PierzStyx]

Sorry but the stupidity of this article hurts my neurons. This part in particular.

So while public property is property funded by taxpayers through expropriated taxes; belongs to taxpayers; is to be managed for their benefit—at least one million additional immigrants a year, including recipients of the H-1B visa, are allowed the free use of taxpayer-supported infrastructure and amenities. Every new arrival avails himself of public works such as roads, hospitals, parks, libraries, schools, and welfare.

Ummm....H1B visa holders pay taxes. Many of them pay more taxes than the average native born American. And most of them send their kids to private schools because, frankly, American public schools suck. I can see complaining about immigrants using welfare or the public school system. But complaining about immigrants using "muh roads?" Seriously?

Okay. Substitute "tourist" for "H1B visa holders." It would be wrong to give tourists food stamps. But should you keep tourists off the roads? If they are driving, they buy gas and pay gas taxes. If they are paying someone else to drive, like an Uber driver, the person they hired is buying gas and paying gas taxes. Maybe you can make the argument that tourists are using "welfare" when they use public transportation so....ban tourism? :rolleyes:

Really, anti immigrant conservatives are as bad as statist liberals. Once in a family law class the teacher brought up "octomom" (the lady that had 8 kids at once.) Most of the class was like "Oh....that's so terrible! That should be banned!" Mind you everyone was all for any type of "alternative" family. Two guys or two gals? Perfect. Family having 8 kids? Terrible! Their reasoning "They are using up our precious resources." I was like "But what if they aren't on welfare?" One particularly angry witch droned "I used to work in a public school and I saw how all these kids come in and they use this and that." so I said "And if the kids are home schooled?" She was like "They use our electricity!" So I countered "And if they are off grid?" Then she shut up.

I'm seeing the same thing with the anti immigrant crowd. Sure, I don't want people coming here and getting on welfare. But getting on our roads? Are you freaking kidding me?

Oh, AND THE ARTICLE FLAT OUT LIED BY STATING THAT H1B VISA PARTICIPANTS GET WELFARE!

Stupid article. Worst I have ever read on the subject.

In fact there was a study fairly recently that said immigrants pay as much as $2 BILLION dollars a year in taxes. And since people on visas are ehre legally they pay income taxes as well. This article is absolutely moronic.

[PierzStyx]

Best I can tell , people in the US are not buying many products made in the US . I am in one of the last few remaining areas heavily involved in Mnfg and there is only one Co here employing these people .

Blame the State. Minimum wage laws and business regulations have made it cheaper to ship jobs and production overseas. That isn't an immigrants fault. Your beef is with the government.

[oyarde]

Since americans are not very bright in general and buy most products made overseas why would you bring workers here ? LOL

[PierzStyx]

Another exaggeration about the opposition. The issue is really about the immorality of the elites which clearly is being ignored and their propaganda propagated here. Prior to the 80s they would be called out for their immorality and some corporations would actually serve the people here and their community equally with the quest for profits. But now it is solely about majority shareholder value over everything no matter the consequences and without any allegiance to the people of this country. God forbid you call out their immorality since people have now been brainwashed to believe that some how makes you against free markets, some how promoting regulations or a Communist.

No, what makes you a Communist and against free markets is calling for anti-free market economic protectionist laws that increase the power of the state to regulate and control the flow of human capital across international borders. In other words, you get called a communist because you're endorsing socialism, and the whole purpose of socialism is to lead to communism.

[juleswin]

The enemy of my enemy is my friend. It was preferable to over look Trump's immorality on some issues given those that oppose him were of greater immorality including those that promoted policies that favored foreigners over American citizens.

Since there were no other competing choices I would painfully make that decision again. Getting something rather than nothing is still better than the alternative which is the opposite of everything I prefer.

I understad, you had 2 bad choices in front of you and u have to pick one. Maybe the industrialists and CEO choosing to use foreign workers are facing similar dilemma? Maybe they are also facing multiple bad choices - lose money, go bust or look elsewhere other than the US for workers. If it is OK for you to make one bad decision, why is it bad when they do so?

[oyarde]

I sympathize with anyone in a situation you described where people's livelihood is dependent on one company that could go overseas(or something like that). But how is this any kind of reply to the question I asked you?
Well , it seemed to me you think it may be good for customers . I do not see that it matters . I do not think you will get a better product or a cheaper product .

[juleswin]

Best I can tell , people in the US are not buying many products made in the US . I am in one of the last few remaining areas heavily involved in Mnfg and there is only one Co here employing these people .

I understand your post now. Well, if the citizens in the richest country in the world aren't buying it, best believe that nobody else can afford it. I don't believe American's aren't buying products made in America. Most of the software (video games, computer programs, etc) are made in the US and many US citizens still buy those products.

Most of the H-1B visas go to computer, scientific/medical research firms. I also think fashion models is also among the top 10. These are in industries that sell massively to American citizens.

[tod evans]

Most of the H-1B visas go to computer, scientific/medical research firms. I also think fashion models is also among the top 10. These are in industries that sell massively to American citizens.

Calling computer games, research and modeling "industries" is really a stretch....

Industry has made tangible items throughout time.

And please don't try the data on a disc is tangible argument...

[oyarde]

I understand your post now. Well, if the citizens in the richest country in the world aren't buying it, best believe that nobody else can afford it. I don't believe American's aren't buying products made in America. Most of the software (video games, computer programs, etc) are made in the US and many US citizens still buy those products.

Most of the H-1B visas go to computer, scientific/medical research firms. I also think fashion models is also among the top 10. These are in industries that sell massively to American citizens.
Around here they are only engineers . The company that uses them just pays them less . The product will not be cheaper or better. I can see americans would have a tough time finding fashion models . I do not care about any of these jobs , I just see no purpose for the program nor any reason to support it .

[juleswin]

Calling computer games, research and modeling "industries" is really a stretch....

Industry has made tangible items throughout time.

And please don't try the data on a disc is tangible argument...

Well, what would you call them?

And yes, they all made tangible items that you can hold in your hand. A software that makes your car break system work well is sold with a car which is tangible, a game is tangible, a medication created by researcher is tangible and a nice looking jeans that you bought because you saw some sexy model wearing it on a billboard is tangible.

Yea, I think nobody would die if no new models were give a H-1B visas. But it is none of my business who a fashion designer chooses to model their design.

[Danke]

These arguments always revolve around reductionism to were we just need to get government out of this or that to solve the problem. But the realist know that that will not happen overnight. So as a practical interim solution, let's limit what we can do in the here and now. We know hospitals cannot refuse patients even though many patients have no means to pay. So maybe we should limit those who come to our country without means. (Wall anyone?) As far as the visa program, it has been shown we already have qualified workers here for those positions. But companies don't want to hire them. The result is We have more people unemployed and sucking on the tit of the government rather than being gainfully employed. Passing the buck once again to the taxpayers, not only in direct costs, but indirect cost of broken families, etc.


baby steps, to reach our goal seems more practical.

[TheCount]

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.It should be obvious by now that he is not, and was never, the enemy of your enemy.


including those that promoted policies that favored foreigners over American citizens.

Could you list for us these policies that favor foreigners over Americans? I can't think of any at the moment.

[TheCount]

So as a practical interim solution, let's limit what we can do in the here and now.These arguments always reduce the problem to the absurd and suggest an action which is counterproductive to the overall goal. More government is not a solution to reach less government. Less freedom will never beget more freedom.


it has been shown we already have qualified workers here for those positions

It has been shown where by whom?


But companies don't want to hire them.

You'll need to invent an entirely new school of economic thought to explain how and why companies are ignoring a surplus of local qualified workers in favor of a once-a-year lottery wherein they pay the government for the privilege to hire a foreign worker at an additional cost.

[Danke]

These arguments always reduce the problem to the absurd and suggest an action which is counterproductive to the overall goal. More government is not a solution to reach less government. Less freedom will never beget more freedom.

[/COLOR]

It has been shown where by whom?

[/COLOR]

You'll need to invent an entirely new school of economic thought to explain how and why companies are ignoring a surplus of local qualified workers in favor of a once-a-year lottery wherein they pay the government for the privilege to hire a foreign worker at an additional cost.



Not really creating more government, just this system already in place.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?510053-Why-the-H-1B-Visa-Racket-Should-Be-Abolished-Not-Reformed&p=6458395&viewfull=1#post6458395

[jmdrake]

I only believe in Libertarian values within what is the geographic borders of the US. Unless you are an internationalist Oligarch, outside of that, it and globalism is retarded for any chance at individual liberty for the majority of people in this geographic region.

Well Ron Paul believes libertarian values go beyond U.S. borders which is why he supports a non-interventionist foreign policy based on the Golden Rule. Oh and he supports freedom of international travel including the right of foreign workers to come to the U.S. While in Congress Ron voted to double the number of H1B Visas. http://profiles.numbersusa.com/improfile.php3?DistSend=TX&VIPID=787 I agree with his position. But not just because he has it. The OP article is farcical in its arguments. H1B visa holders on welfare? Wrong. Flat out lie. Keep foreign workers out because they use the highways? Silly. They pay gas tax just like anyone else. Hospitals? They typically have private health insurance so that's not a factor. They over use libraries? :rolleyes: Whoever wrote this has probably not been to a library in years. Libraries are in no danger of overuse. They drive down U.S. wages? Not nearly as much as if they aren't allowed in the country. You see you can outsource over the internet. Someone from India who works in Silicon Valley has to pay the same high cost of living as someone born in the U.S. who works in Silicon Valley. But if you have that same person working and living in India...well on a McDonald's salary he can have a decent life. So...why don't the high tech firms just outsource over the internet if it's simply about saving money on salary? Because it is NOT about saving money on salary! Go to any major university in the country and check out who's getting the PhDs in STEM fields. The majority are people born outside the U.S., mostly China, India and Pakistan. That's the problem. H1B visas are merely a symptom.

[BSWPaulsen]

I don't mind you "calling out" corporations for their "immorality". What I hate is when you support government power to infringe on my natural rights. In this case the right of a business to hire who it wants, which affects me indirectly because now I have to pay more for stuff.

And here we have a case example of the atomization of western society in action. In the pursuit of ever-cheaper goods, and the utter detachment from any sense of community, people will sell out their neighbors in favor of foreigners if they can extract personal economic benefit from it. When economics is your god base behavior inevitably follows.

As a side-note, the number of libertarians that both protest government involvement in the market and endorse supporting their community (despite the increased cost often associated in the era of the internet) are laughably few. This, perhaps more than anything, demonstrates why libertarians will remain politically irrelevant. It is difficult to rally a people with no attachment to those around them at all. Herding cats indeed.

Poll idea: how many libertarians would buy something at twice the cost to support another libertarian in favor of purchasing it cheaper from a communist? I have a feeling the result would be depressing.

[Madison320]

Best I can tell , people in the US are not buying many products made in the US . I am in one of the last few remaining areas heavily involved in Mnfg and there is only one Co here employing these people .

I agree, but banning H1Bs puts yet another small nail in the manufacturing coffin.

And it annoys me when people here assume they know more than the CEOs of corporations. You guys are watching too many Hollywood movies where every CEO has a hot secretary and practices putting all day in his office.

[jmdrake]

And here we have a case example of the atomization of western society in action. In the pursuit of ever-cheaper goods, and the utter detachment from any sense of community, people will sell out their neighbors in favor of foreigners if they can extract personal economic benefit from it. When economics is your god base behavior inevitably follows.

As a side-note, the number of libertarians that both protest government involvement in the market and endorse supporting their community (despite the increased cost often associated in the era of the internet) are laughably few. This, perhaps more than anything, demonstrates why libertarians will remain politically irrelevant. It is difficult to rally a people with no attachment to those around them at all. Herding cats indeed.

Poll idea: how many libertarians would buy something at twice the cost to support another libertarian in favor of purchasing it cheaper from a communist? I have a feeling the result would be depressing.

I will pose you two different scenarios. Pick one. The background scenario is a new robotics startup that has a need for PhD level engineers to solve tricky problems in machine vision and machine learning. This company is having trouble filling these positions.

Scenario 1: The startup fills them using H1B visa holders who just graduated from U.S. universities. (Again most of the STEM PhD's at U.S. universities are foreigners.) The startup flourishes and highers lots of Americans to do various tasks that don't require engineering PhDs.

Scenario 2: The H1B visa program is killed, the foreign born PhD students return home, the startup relocates to India or China.

Which scenario do you choose and why?

Edit: And why do you believe H1B visa holders are more likely to be communists than native born Americans?

[Madison320]

And here we have a case example of the atomization of western society in action. In the pursuit of ever-cheaper goods, and the utter detachment from any sense of community, people will sell out their neighbors in favor of foreigners if they can extract personal economic benefit from it. When economics is your god base behavior inevitably follows.

As a side-note, the number of libertarians that both protest government involvement in the market and endorse supporting their community (despite the increased cost often associated in the era of the internet) are laughably few. This, perhaps more than anything, demonstrates why libertarians will remain politically irrelevant. It is difficult to rally a people with no attachment to those around them at all. Herding cats indeed.

Poll idea: how many libertarians would buy something at twice the cost to support another libertarian in favor of purchasing it cheaper from a communist? I have a feeling the result would be depressing.

Two questions.

1. Do you shop around for the best deal?

2. Do you favor government intervention in the free market?

I think one major reason people tend to focus on cost is due to government regulation. Government regulation tends to make products and services more uniform so the only thing left to shop for is cost. Plus it lowers our standard of living so we HAVE to focus on cost.

[oyarde]

I agree, but banning H1Bs puts yet another small nail in the manufacturing coffin.

And it annoys me when people here assume they know more than the CEOs of corporations. You guys are watching too many Hollywood movies where every CEO has a hot secretary and practices putting all day in his office.

I have ran more mnfg companies than most CEO's will ever hope to . I personally do not care who they employ but still see no reason for that program .

[jmdrake]

I have ran more mnfg companies than most CEO's will ever hope to . I personally do not care who they employ but still see no reason for that program .

Yeah. Screw it. They should just move operations to India and be done with it. /sarcasm

[BSWPaulsen]

I will pose you two different scenarios. Pick one. The background scenario is a new robotics startup that has a need for PhD level engineers to solve tricky problems in machine vision and machine learning. This company is having trouble filling these positions.

Scenario 1: The startup fills them using H1B visa holders who just graduated from U.S. universities. (Again most of the STEM PhD's at U.S. universities are foreigners.) The startup flourishes and highers lots of Americans to do various tasks that don't require engineering PhDs.

Scenario 2: The H1B visa program is killed, the foreign born PhD students return home, the startup relocates to India or China.

Which scenario do you choose and why?

Kill the H1B visa program, and let come what may. I have zero doubt your hypothetical start up, with its lush cash fund enabling it to relocate wherever it pleases in order to make use of ostensibly superior Indian or Chinese talent, will figure it out without the H1B program. Hell, if those countries are where the talent is coming from and they have no compunction about hiring foreigners why wouldn't they start it overseas in the first place?

If, on the other hand, this start up is founded by an American that just cannot locate other American talent, the question must be posed - why in the hell are Americans only good enough to start something up, but not finish it themselves?



Edit: And why do you believe H1B visa holders are more likely to be communists than native born Americans?

Utterly bizarre extrapolation from my post.

[timosman]

I will pose you two different scenarios. Pick one. The background scenario is a new robotics startup that has a need for PhD level engineers to solve tricky problems in machine vision and machine learning. This company is having trouble filling these positions.

Scenario 1: The startup fills them using H1B visa holders who just graduated from U.S. universities. (Again most of the STEM PhD's at U.S. universities are foreigners.) The startup flourishes and highers lots of Americans to do various tasks that don't require engineering PhDs.

Scenario 2: The H1B visa program is killed, the foreign born PhD students return home, the startup relocates to India or China.

Which scenario do you choose and why?

Edit: And why do you believe H1B visa holders are more likely to be communists than native born Americans?

Please find me a profitable startup. :cool:

[BSWPaulsen]

Two questions.

1. Do you shop around for the best deal?

I shop around for the best deal between vendors/companies whose interests align most closely with my own. I do not place the lowest cost as the most important factor, and never will. I regard such behavior as base, and tantamount to useful idiocy when it leads to supporting companies whose priorities are not necessarily in line with my own.



2. Do you favor government intervention in the free market?

Domestically? No. If the whole country is playing by the same rules it's all good.

Internationally? The notion of an international free market, one in which all countries are playing by the same rules, is nonsense. It is simply impossible so long as governments span the globe. There is too much advantage in using unethical means to achieve beneficial economic ends. If the US ceased doing it (or ceased to exist altogether) other governments would pick up the slack.

As such, given I have no compulsion to support some kind of universal free market, as opposed to one operative within an outlined boundary, it would suit me fine if the US were entirely funded through taxes collected at ports and borders.



I think one major reason people tend to focus on cost is due to government regulation. Government regulation tends to make products and services more uniform so the only thing left to shop for is cost. Plus it lowers our standard of living so we HAVE to focus on cost.

People tend to focus on cost because they either believe there is no moral dimension to their economic activity, or simply are looking out for themselves first. There is no bigger picture, just the atomized individual. Cost should be a consideration, not the determinant.

The chief problem with government regulation is that it reduces competition, and as such limits the ability to purchase from people that could be pro-liberty.

[jmdrake]

Kill the H1B visa program, and let come what may. I have zero doubt your hypothetical start up, with its lush cash fund enabling it to relocate wherever it pleases in order to make use of ostensibly superior Indian or Chinese talent, will figure it out without the H1B program. Hell, if those countries are where the talent is coming from and they have no compunction about hiring foreigners why wouldn't they start it overseas in the first place?

Maybe they actually want to...I don't know...higher Americans when they can? :rolleyes: You pushed the cynical view that libertarians are so awful that all they care about is the bottom line and have no sense of community, and yet you're perfectly willing to just have all of the jobs go to foreigners instead of just some? Rather self defeating don't you think?



If, on the other hand, this start up is founded by an American that just cannot locate other American talent, the question must be posed - why in the hell are Americans only good enough to start something up, but not finish it themselves?

Utterly bizarre extrapolation from my post.

Not really. You said: Poll idea: how many libertarians would buy something at twice the cost to support another libertarian in favor of purchasing it cheaper from a communist? I have a feeling the result would be depressing.

That poll, in the context of this thread, depends upon H1B visa holders being somehow "less libertarian." Maybe well educated people coming over from India to get a good paying high tech job are more libertarian than native born Americans. Then if you give the job to the Indian you're giving it to the libertarian.

[BSWPaulsen]

Maybe they actually want to...I don't know...higher Americans when they can? :rolleyes: You pushed the cynical view that libertarians are so awful that all they care about is the bottom line and have no sense of community, and yet you're perfectly willing to just have all of the jobs go to foreigners instead of just some? Rather self defeating don't you think?

Actually, I am of the belief that all of the jobs would, in fact, go to Americans without the H1B program if the founder of the start up wanted to hire Americans. I suffer no delusion that only foreigners could perform the highly specific work you cited. That would be considered optimistic, but as I decided to play along with your overly contrived scenario I left that out.



Not really. You said: Poll idea: how many libertarians would buy something at twice the cost to support another libertarian in favor of purchasing it cheaper from a communist? I have a feeling the result would be depressing.

That poll, in the context of this thread, depends upon H1B visa holders being somehow "less libertarian." Maybe well educated people coming over from India to get a good paying high tech job are more libertarian than native born Americans. Then if you give the job to the Indian you're giving it to the libertarian.

Again, utterly bizarre extrapolation. My question was specifically aimed at libertarians and communists, not Americans and foreigners. If I had wanted to make the poll idea into what you thought it was, then I would have. I didn't, which is why your extrapolation is erroneous.

[jmdrake]

Actually, I am of the belief that all of the jobs would, in fact, go to Americans without the H1B program if the founder of the start up wanted to hire Americans. I suffer no delusion that only foreigners could perform the highly specific work you cited. That would be considered optimistic, but as I decided to play along with your overly contrived scenario I left that out.

Please visit your local state university, find out how many STEM PhDs are going to Americans, and get back to us once you pull your jaw up off the floor.



Again, utterly bizarre extrapolation. My question was specifically aimed at libertarians and communists, not Americans and foreigners. If I had wanted to make the poll idea into what you thought it was, then I would have. I didn't, which is why your extrapolation is erroneous.

What is "utterly bizarre" is that you engage in a thread that is specifically about U.S. vs foreign workers and then try to pretend that we aren't talking about U.S. vs. foreign workers. But if you want to engage in silliness, go right ahead. Sorry for actually trying to take you seriously.

[BSWPaulsen]

Please visit your local state university, find out how many STEM PhDs are going to Americans, and get back to us once you pull your jaw up off the floor.

Completely and utterly irrelevant. If there is even 1 American receiving it, then there is a market for an American doing the job.



What is "utterly bizarre" is that you engage in a thread that is specifically about U.S. vs foreign workers and then try to pretend that we aren't talking about U.S. vs. foreign workers. But if you want to engage in silliness, go right ahead. Sorry for actually trying to take you seriously.

I did mention I was delving into a side-note in the preceding paragraph, or did you miss that? Reading comprehension is fundamental, and I suggest you work on yours.

[jmdrake]

Completely and utterly irrelevant. If there is even 1 American receiving it, then there is a market for an American doing the job.

:rolleyes: Says the guy that injects a discussion about whether a libertarian would buy a good made by a communist into a thread about H1B visas.

If there isn't 1 American receiving "it"? What is "it"? An H1B visa? By definition no American can receive "it." And whether there is a market for an American doing the job is irrelevant. The question is are there qualified Americans ready and willing to take the job? If the job specs are for a PhD in quantum physics and all of the American born quantum physics PhDs are not looking for a job, then while there is certainly a "market for an American doing the job", there's not a qualified American in the market to do the job.



I did mention I was delving into a side-note in the preceding paragraph, or did you miss that? Reading comprehension is fundamental, and I suggest you work on yours.

The "side note" really has no relevance to the thread and was basically a baseless attack on libertarian thinking with no rhyme or reason to it. Writing is fundamental. I suggest you work on yours.

[BSWPaulsen]

:rolleyes: Says the guy that injects a discussion about whether a libertarian would buy a good made by a communist into a thread about H1B visas.

If there isn't 1 American receiving "it"? What is "it"? An H1B visa? By definition no American can receive "it." And whether there is a market for an American doing the job is irrelevant. The question is are there qualified Americans ready and willing to take the job? If the job specs are for a PhD in quantum physics and all of the American born quantum physics PhDs are not looking for a job, then while there is certainly a "market for an American doing the job", there's not a qualified American in the market to do the job.

"It" is obviously a degree in this oh-so-specialized field you fancied in your overly wrought scenario (Why would I mention an American alongside an H1B visa?!). There's that reading comprehension problem of yours again...

Let's be entirely clear. If there is even one qualified American, just one, then there is a market for those services. Given your ridiculous start-up scenario now requires there to be no Americans available and interested in the job it must be summarily dismissed as a trite absurdity. If that was your goal, then you have succeeded brilliantly. Bravo!



The "side note" really has no relevance to the thread and was basically a baseless attack on libertarian thinking with no rhyme or reason to it. Writing is fundamental. I suggest you work on yours.

It wasn't a "baseless attack" on libertarian thinking. It was an observation on why libertarians have no political power, and will continue to have no political power. Whether this is a defect in the philosophy or a defect in the individuals endorsing it is another matter entirely.

Your inability to draw distinctions does explain why you are struggling so badly with this.

[jmdrake]

"It" is obviously a degree in this oh-so-specialized field you fancied in your overly wrought scenario (Why would I mention an American alongside an H1B visa?!). There's that reading comprehension problem of yours again...

Oh yes. You are so smart. Your ability to twist the English language in ways that it (that is the language) is not supposed to be used is fascinating. Is Egnwish your 3rd or 4th language? Clearly you are not an native speaker so you must have mastered something else first. Chinese perhaps? You had what is known as a dangling pronoun. "It" could have referred to a job or a PhD. So now that we've cleared up your writing deficiencies, what you wrote still doesn't make sense. If there is at least 1 American receiving a PhD then there is a market for American PhDs. Of course there is. Now the question which seems to have escaped your oh so brilliant mind is, are there more American PhDs then there are PhD job openings? If that 1 American PhD gets hired and there are 10 PhD job openings....well you see the problem? No, you probably don't. If Engwish was your first language you might.


Let's be entirely clear. If there is even one qualified American, just one, then there is a market for those services. Given your ridiculous start-up scenario now requires there to be no Americans available and interested in the job it must be summarily dismissed as a trite absurdity. If that was your goal, then you have succeeded brilliantly. Bravo!

You're making the assumption that the one American PhD that exists either didn't get hired or is willing and able to work all of the PhD jobs. Maybe English isn't your problem. Maybe it's math and/or logic that you are failing at.


It wasn't a "baseless attack" on libertarian thinking. It was an observation on why libertarians have no political power, and will continue to have no political power. Whether this is a defect in the philosophy or a defect in the individuals endorsing it is another matter entirely.

Now you're shifting gears to why libertarians aren't politically powerful? That's simple. Freedom isn't popular. People like hearing silly platitude like "Let's fight em over there so we don't have to fight em over here" or "ban all drugs and just build a wall to keep them out" or "The constitution is not a suicide pact so get used to getting groped before you get on an airplane." Banning foreign workers to "save" the job from some American PhD that probably has more job offers than he or she can handle is yet another example of a stupid platitude that the ignorant masses can latch onto. Congratulations! You've master the art of demagogue politics! MAGA!

[BSWPaulsen]

Oh yes. You are so smart. Your ability to twist the English language in ways that it (that is the language) is not supposed to be used is fascinating. Is Egnwish your 3rd or 4th language? Clearly you are not an native speaker so you must have mastered something else first. Chinese perhaps? You had what is known as a dangling pronoun. "It" could have referred to a job or a PhD. So now that we've cleared up your writing deficiencies, what you wrote still doesn't make sense. If there is at least 1 American receiving a PhD then there is a market for American PhDs. Of course there is. Now the question which seems to have escaped your oh so brilliant mind is, are there more American PhDs then there are PhD job openings? If that 1 American PhD gets hired and there are 10 PhD job openings....well you see the problem? No, you probably don't. If Engwish was your first language you might.

In no context could it have been anything other than a PhD given the statement I was responding to. Good God, man. You wrote the preceding statement I directly responded to and could not follow the discussion? Disappointing.

Even assuming, for the sake of argument, that there was a lack of American PhDs at a given point in time the number is not static, and newly minted American PhDs could be expected in a field with such urgent demand. This supposed risk of a "successful start up" that "wants to hire the Americans they can" of relocating to India or China to exploit the ostensibly superior labor pool in those countries is categorical bullshit devoid of any attachment to reality.

This supposed need for highly qualified foreigners is dramatically overblown, and is tantamount to useful idiocy on behalf of those that primarily make use of H1B visa programs to bring in cheaper labor.



You're making the assumption that the one American PhD that exists either didn't get hired or is willing and able to work all of the PhD jobs. Maybe English isn't your problem. Maybe it's math and/or logic that you are failing at.

In your absurd and overwrought scenario it is altogether unlikely there isn't an American available for the jobs in question. And even if there weren't it does not create a need for nonsense like the H1B visa program.



Now you're shifting gears to why libertarians aren't politically powerful? That's simple. Freedom isn't popular.

When those that do espouse freedom cannot achieve any degree of unity and interdependency they will never have any degree of political power as there is nothing binding them together. The fact is that even among those people with which freedom is popular far too many of them are thoroughly atomized and therefore politically ineffectual.

The rest of your post was inane and unworthy of comment.

[PierzStyx]

Closed borders is Socialism. The only libertarian position on national borders is that they must be open.

Bernie Sanders, the avowed Socialist Progressive agrees with closed borders. He has repeatedly said that America needs to "secure the borders" and that the government needs to "protect American jobs." In fact, other than opposing mass deportations -something even Ron Paul opposes and is again another unlibertarian program- Sanders sounds more or less like Donald Trump.


Sanders’ opposition to the 2007 immigration reform bill and his rhetoric about the effect of immigrant labor on American workers have dismayed immigration activists and liberal allies in the past. He has expressed concern repeatedly over the years that guest workers in the United States depress wages and squeeze Americans out of their jobs.

Sanders opposed comprehensive immigration reform in 2007 on the grounds that it would expand the number of guest workers in the United States. It included a measure that would allow 200,000 guest workers to stay in the country for two years on temporary visas. The bill was widely supported by immigrant rights groups and would have put the undocumented on a path to citizenship.

“If poverty is increasing and if wages are going down, I don’t know why we need millions of people to be coming into this country as guest workers who will work for lower wages than American workers and drive waged down even lower than they are now,” Sanders said in a television interview in June 2007.

Joining Sanders in opposing the 2007 bill was the AFL-CIO, the largest coalition of labor unions in the country—as well as staunchly conservative members of Congress like King and advocates like Beck.

..."It does not make a lot of sense to me to bring hundreds of thousands of those workers into this country to work for minimum wage and compete with Americans kids," Sanders said in 2013.

http://time.com/4170591/bernie-sanders-immigration-conservatives/

Why, that sounds like he even shares Trump's opinion on H-1B visas.

So, you see, Bernie Sanders OPPOSES opening the borders and believes in economic protectionism through big government border regulation. Why? Because he is a Socialist and those programs are Socialist too.

So, in short, those on these forums who want closed borders agree with Bernie Sanders and are supporting a Socialist position. The opposition position, the free market position, the one that allows all forms of capital to be freely exchanged between nations, is open borders.

And no one is talking about utopia. But liberty is certainly better than centralized tyranny, the free market is better than socialist regulation and intrusive big government programs. To quote Thomas Jefferson:

http://www.meoso.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/i-would-rather-be-exposed-to-the-inconveniences-attending-too-much-liberty-than-to-those-attending-too-small-a-degree-of-it-cfl.jpg

[helmuth_hubener]

So, in short, those on these forums who want closed borders agree with Bernie Sanders and are supporting a Socialist position.

I'll bet Bernie Sanders eats sandwiches, too! With meat! Anyone here who's not a vegan is a huge, total Socialist!

[Danke]

I'll bet Bernie Sanders eats sandwiches, too! With meat! Anyone here who's not a vegan is a huge, total Socialist!

I bet socialists believe in self defense too!

[Superfluous Man]

100% agree with ending H1B and all other Visas.

Just let people come and go without any paperwork.

[Superfluous Man]

I'll bet Bernie Sanders eats sandwiches, too! With meat! Anyone here who's not a vegan is a huge, total Socialist!

But eating sandwiches with meat isn't part of socialism. Limiting immigration is.

[PierzStyx]

I'll bet Bernie Sanders eats sandwiches, too! With meat! Anyone here who's not a vegan is a huge, total Socialist!

You're correct. I mislabeled things. Socialists are internationalists. It is the National Socialist variety that favors big government economic protectionist programs to limit the free market exchange of capital, both goods and people.

If it waddles like a duck, quacks like a duck, and shits like a duck, then its a duck.

So, keep quacking.

[Occam's Banana]

But eating sandwiches with meat isn't part of socialism. Limiting immigration is.

Even if support for limiting immigration is a part of socialism, it is not valid to identify someone as a socialist because he supports limiting immigration.

To do so is an example of the formal logical fallacy known as "affirming the consequent."

[Brian4Liberty]

Even if support for limiting immigration is a part of socialism, it is not valid to identify someone as a socialist because he supports limiting immigration.

To do so is an example of the formal logical fallacy known as "affirming the consequent."

But that's too complex. It must be black and white. Up or down. Yes or no. On or off. If you support immigration, you are an international socialist. If you don't support immigration, you are a national socialist. ;)

[Brian4Liberty]

From the article:


So while public property is property funded by taxpayers through expropriated taxes; belongs to taxpayers; is to be managed for their benefit—at least one million additional immigrants a year, including recipients of the H-1B visa, are allowed the free use of taxpayer-supported infrastructure and amenities. Every new arrival avails himself of public works such as roads, hospitals, parks, libraries, schools, and welfare.


This is a restating of the old saying that "if the welfare state disappears, then immigration can be open". There was a time when that was not controversial in "libertarian" circles.

To avoid the heated topic of "muh roads", let's look at a government-less analogy to illustrate the point trying to be made.

Image a religious organization, which usually implies a certain amount of voluntary socialism. How much an individual contributes will vary (as an aside, it's an eye-opening experience to see who "donates" and how much).

So this group of people, say your grandparent's generation, form together in this religious congregation. They need a place to gather, so through donations and sweat equity, they buy some property, and build their building. They slowly grow, and decide they will build a bigger and more dramatic building. They push for members to contribute even more for a larger structure. Through your parent's generation, the building is paid off, and it has the perfect capacity for this socialist organization, which has grown at an organic rate.

All of a sudden, a lot of new people join. What "right"' do they have to this existing organization's property and capacity? What if they demand that the land and building be sold, so that they can have a down payment on an even bigger building that also contains a full-blown K-12 school? Once again, the existing members are pushed for even more donations (taxes) and will bear the majority of the new burdon, as the massive amount of new-comers have no money. But as new members, they instantly have a say in the management and use of existing property and equity.

Thus the dilemma. A rush of new members now exceeds the existing capacity, and they have new desires for this socialist organization. The old members must increase their payments, and at the same time, their say is reduced, and things are being forced down their throats. And this is a voluntary organization. How much worse is this in a non-voluntary situation?

[helmuth_hubener]

But that's too complex. It must be black and white. Up or down. Yes or no. On or off. If you support immigration, you are an international socialist. If you don't support immigration, you are a national socialist. ;)

The knack for simplification is also why the leftist mind is able to sustain so much more zeal and fervor. Am I fighting blackest evil, yes or no? Then should I be willing to go bomb this campus building for my cause, yes or no? It's a great strength. Right-side philosophies like conservatism and libertarianism are much more nuanced and complex, not so black and white, and so it's hard to get people to mobilize for it and to whip up fervor.

[Brian4Liberty]

Sorry but the stupidity of this article hurts my neurons. This part in particular.

So while public property is property funded by taxpayers through expropriated taxes; belongs to taxpayers; is to be managed for their benefit—at least one million additional immigrants a year, including recipients of the H-1B visa, are allowed the free use of taxpayer-supported infrastructure and amenities. Every new arrival avails himself of public works such as roads, hospitals, parks, libraries, schools, and welfare.

Ummm....H1B visa holders pay taxes. Many of them pay more taxes than the average native born American. And most of them send their kids to private schools because, frankly, American public schools suck. I can see complaining about immigrants using welfare or the public school system. But complaining about immigrants using "muh roads?" Seriously?

Okay. Substitute "tourist" for "H1B visa holders." It would be wrong to give tourists food stamps. But should you keep tourists off the roads? If they are driving, they buy gas and pay gas taxes. If they are paying someone else to drive, like an Uber driver, the person they hired is buying gas and paying gas taxes. Maybe you can make the argument that tourists are using "welfare" when they use public transportation so....ban tourism? :rolleyes:

Really, anti immigrant conservatives are as bad as statist liberals. Once in a family law class the teacher brought up "octomom" (the lady that had 8 kids at once.) Most of the class was like "Oh....that's so terrible! That should be banned!" Mind you everyone was all for any type of "alternative" family. Two guys or two gals? Perfect. Family having 8 kids? Terrible! Their reasoning "They are using up our precious resources." I was like "But what if they aren't on welfare?" One particularly angry witch droned "I used to work in a public school and I saw how all these kids come in and they use this and that." so I said "And if the kids are home schooled?" She was like "They use our electricity!" So I countered "And if they are off grid?" Then she shut up.

I'm seeing the same thing with the anti immigrant crowd. Sure, I don't want people coming here and getting on welfare. But getting on our roads? Are you freaking kidding me?

Oh, AND THE ARTICLE FLAT OUT LIED BY STATING THAT H1B VISA PARTICIPANTS GET WELFARE!

Stupid article. Worst I have ever read on the subject.

Well, the article could be better written, and welfare was inappropriately added to a laundry list. But she did clarify in the next paragraph:


Moreover, chain migration or family unification means every H-1B visa recruit is a ticket for an entire tribe. The initial entrant—the meal ticket—will pay his way.

So her point is that an H1-B visa holder, although holding a job, on the day that they arrive they will have paid no taxes at all, but will be able to take advantage of an existing socialist society, including it's infrastructure. Additionally, chain immigration will result in people without jobs. It's worth noting that the H1-B system is a gateway to achieving citizenship, at which point, a former H1-B visa holder will be eligible to receive public assistance, and a certain percentage probably will, especially if they are replaced after ten years by a younger, fresher, less expensive H1-B holder.

[Brian4Liberty]

Paul Ryan Expands H-2B Blue-Collar Outsourcing Program for 2017
by Neil Munro - 1 May 2017

House Speaker Paul Ryan’s new 2017 budget allows the Department of Homeland Security to import at least 20,000 extra foreign blue-collar workers for seasonal jobs in the United States, instead of requiring companies to recruit, train, and pay marginalized Americans.

The bipartisan congressional language creates a headache for Trump and his deputies because it flips the politically difficult problem from Congress to the Department of Homeland Security of deciding whether to provide extra wage-cutting H-2B contract workers to companies or else to improve job opportunities for Trump’s blue-collar voters.

The new rule is opposed by pro-American groups, including the Federation for American Immigration Reform. According to FAIR’s Robert Law:


Increasing the number of low skilled foreign workers through a massive government funding bill is Washington at its worst. This is a clear betrayal of blue collar Americans who were hit the hardest by the Obama economy. Even after Trump’s victory, Congress is more interested in rewarding the business lobby’s thirst for cheap workers than getting their unemployed constituents back in the work force.

The new rule helps business groups offset rising pressure for wage increases, just 18 months before the mid-term elections when voters will vet the success or not of Trump’s “Buy American, Hire American” policies.

The H-2B language was hidden deep in the draft 2017 supplemental budget — which is to face House and Senate votes this week — and it surprised opponents of the legislation. In December 2016, Ryan had agreed to trim the program when the partial 2017 budget deal was announced just one month after blue-collar voters backed Donald Trump’s campaign promise of a low-immigration, high-wage national economic policy.
...
The program means companies don’t have to pay a premium to hire Americans for seasonal overtime work that leaves them unemployed in winter, and it also reduces pressure on the companies to recruit and train youths and marginalized Americans, including millions of Americans who have fallen out of the workforce. The imported workers are also paid at rates that are lower than needed to attract Americans to those jobs — which also means that the companies can pay lower wages to their full-time American workers.
...
The new 2017 rule may allow far more visas to be given out because the RWE program was also used under George W. Bush to import 130,000 foreign workers in 2007. If that 2007 number sets the 2017 limit, then, then the DHS will be able to triple the program to almost 200,000 foreign workers.
...
The H-2B program is backed by many politicians, notably Sen. Thom Tillis, a GOP Senator from North Carolina, Arizona Sen. Jeff Flake, and Utah Sen. Orrin Hatch.
...
The annual inflow of 1 million contract workers is in addition to the annual inflow of 1 million legal immigrants. Every year, these two million new arrivals compete with the 4 million young Americans who enter the workforce each year, forcing down wages, driving up unemployment and transferring roughly $500 billion from employees to employers and investors. Several million working-age men have been pushed out the workforce by declining wages, say economists.
...
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/05/01/paul-ryan-expands-h-2b-blue-collar-outsourcing-program-2017/

Whether or not one supports these programs, the outrage here is that it was hidden in a supplementary budget bill. Nothing like a huge omnibus to bury special interest cronyism.

The additional irony is that at the same time as they do things like this, there are lamentations about unemployment and minimum wage. Politically, they are playing both ends. People march in the streets for increased wages and more immigration, as if the law of supply and demand can somehow be eliminated via "living wage" legislation.

[specsaregood]

We used to consume Basmati rice; but I decided to MAGA and now we only purchase and consume Texmati rice. Just doing my part, every little bit helps.

[oyarde]

We used to consume Basmati rice; but I decided to MAGA and now we only purchase and consume Texmati rice. Just doing my part, every little bit helps.

I only eat rice at chinese places . I dunno where they get it .

[oyarde]

I just figured all this rice came from Louisiana or something ?

[oyarde]

I like eating ducks I have shot in rice fields but I eat muh duck without rice .

[Brian4Liberty]

The knack for simplification is also why the leftist mind is able to sustain so much more zeal and fervor. Am I fighting blackest evil, yes or no? Then should I be willing to go bomb this campus building for my cause, yes or no? It's a great strength. Right-side philosophies like conservatism and libertarianism are much more nuanced and complex, not so black and white, and so it's hard to get people to mobilize for it and to whip up fervor.

If you keep it simple, then you don't even have to connect any two of these black and white issues. Higher wages via legislation is good, anybody opposed is evil. More immigration is good, anyone opposed is evil. The direct supply and demand connection between the two issues be damned.

And don't bring up the Federal Reserve or monetary inflation. The Fed needs to be independent! :rolleyes:

[timosman]

If you keep it simple, then you don't even have to connect any two of these black and white issues. Higher wages via legislation is good, anybody opposed is evil. More immigration is good, anyone opposed is evil. The direct supply and demand connection between the two issues be damned.

And don't bring up the Federal Reserve or monetary inflation. The Fed needs to be independent! :rolleyes:

Independence is something you can not afford.:cool:

[TheCount]

The knack for simplification is also why the leftist mind is able to sustain so much more zeal and fervor.This from the guy who abandoned one thread on tax cuts to create a new thread on tax cuts because the original was too complicated and he wanted to simplify.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

This from the guy who abandoned one thread on tax cuts to create a new thread on tax cuts because the original was too complicated and he wanted to simplify.


Madison 320 already had a thread. YOU are the one who created a new thread.

YOU are the guy who attempts to derail threads, but then gets butt hurt when his derailing thread doesn't go the way he likes. Same guy who complains about me, but now complains about somebody for simply disagreeing with him and viewing an issue a different way.:rolleyes:

[helmuth_hubener]

This from the guy who abandoned one thread on tax cuts to create a new thread on tax cuts because the original was too complicated and he wanted to simplify.

Sigh.

Yes, perish the thought that we should ever simplify. We should strive to always keep our ideas as esoteric and convoluted and non-actionable as possible. Also muddledly moderate, desertly dry, and utterly uninspiring. This is the kind of stuff young men will really go to the ramparts for.

Mr. The Count: I posted in your thread, and indeed have a loose post hanging unanswered at the moment. Feel free to reply to it any time. No need to feel jilted.

[specsaregood]

I'm just gonna put this here.
http://www.itwire.com/outsourcing/78004-only-36-of-indian-engineers-can-write-compilable-code-study.html



Only 36% of software engineers in India can write compilable code based on measurements by an automated tool that is used across the world, the Indian skills assessment company Aspiring Minds says in a report.

The report is based on a sample of 36,800 from more than 500 colleges across India.

Aspiring Minds said it used the automated tool Automata which is a 60-minute test taken in a compiler integrated environment and rates candidates on programming ability, programming practices, run-time complexity and test case coverage.

It uses advanced artificial intelligence technology to automatically grade programming skills.

"We find that out of the two problems given per candidate, only 14% engineers are able to write compilable codes for both and only 22% write compilable code for exactly one problem," the study said.

It further found that of the test subjects only 14.67% were employable by an IT services company.

When it came to writing fully functional code using the best practices for efficiency and writing, only 2.21% of the engineers studied made the grade.
more at link...


TBH, I'm a bit surprised they scored so well.

[Krugminator2]

Closed borders is Socialism. The only libertarian position on national borders is that they must be open.

Bernie Sanders, the avowed Socialist Progressive agrees with closed borders. He has repeatedly said that America needs to "secure the borders" and that the government needs to "protect American jobs."

Communist Ron Paul, "What is your view on legal immigration?I think it depends on our economy. If we have a healthy economy, I think we could be very generous on work programs. People come in, fulfill their role and go back home." "Is the economy healthy enough right now?
No. I don`t think so. I think the economy is going downhill."


"You have a long record of being a serious libertarian. You musthave libertarians who are annoyed with you on this.
I imagine there are some, because there are some who are literally don`t believe in any borders! (http://www.vdare.com/articles/in-praise-of-huddled-masses) Totally free immigration! I`ve never taken that position."
"Why not?

Because I believe in national sovereignty. (http://www.vdare.com/archives/2006/08/12/dissolving-national-sovereignty/)"

http://www.vdare.com/articles/ron-paul-i-believe-in-national-sovereignty
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2T-iJKwskH4

[Danke]

Communist Ron Paul, "What is your view on legal immigration?I think it depends on our economy. If we have a healthy economy, I think we could be very generous on work programs. People come in, fulfill their role and go back home." "Is the economy healthy enough right now?
No. I don`t think so. I think the economy is going downhill."


"You have a long record of being a serious libertarian. You musthave libertarians who are annoyed with you on this.
I imagine there are some, because there are some who are literally don`t believe in any borders! (http://www.vdare.com/articles/in-praise-of-huddled-masses) Totally free immigration! I`ve never taken that position."
"Why not?

Because I believe in national sovereignty. (http://www.vdare.com/archives/2006/08/12/dissolving-national-sovereignty/)"

http://www.vdare.com/articles/ron-paul-i-believe-in-national-sovereignty
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2T-iJKwskH4

Who knew RP is a socialist!

[Natural Citizen]

If you remove the H1-B Visa, you collapse the economy. Period. :)

As was mentioned some place in the thread earlier, there are no Americans who can do these jobs. The American education system is a failure. And they better fix it soon because all of the brains are going back to their countries. We're seing Silicon Valleys popping up all over the world now. China, India, elsewhere...

These foreign people here on the H1-B do not just control jobs. They control entire industries. Without the H1-B there would be no Silicon Valley in America.

[specsaregood]

If you remove the H1-B Visa, you collapse the economy. Period. :)

As was mentioned some place in the thread earlier, there are no Americans who can do these jobs. The American education system is a failure. And they better fix it soon because all of the brains are going back to their countries. We're seing Silicon Valleys popping up all over the world now. China, India, elsewhere...

These foreign people here on the H1-B do not just control jobs. They control entire industries. Without the H1-B there would be no Silicon Valley in America.

True enough, kick em all out and the IT industry would become so much more productive that everybody would be replaced by robots.

[Brian4Liberty]

These foreign people here on the H1-B do not just control jobs. They control entire industries. Without the H1-B there would be no Silicon Valley in America.

Can we safely assume you are not talking about the 50 or so years that Silicon Valley had been innovating and growing before the massive importation of H1-B workers?

And the claim that everything would stop if there were no H1-Bs is like saying there would be no education if the Department of Education was abolished.

[Brian4Liberty]

True enough, kick em all out and the IT industry would become so much more productive that everybody would be replaced by robots.

The cost savings would be a boon to the economy.

As Ron Paul would say "replace them with... nothing".

[specsaregood]

Can we safely assume you are not talking about the 50 or so years that Silicon Valley had been innovating and growing before the massive importation of H1-B workers?

And the claim that everything would stop if there were no H1-Bs is like saying there would be no education if the Department of Education was abolished.

And I thought he was joking... now I'm confused.

[Natural Citizen]

Can we safely assume you are not talking about the 50 or so years that Silicon Valley had been innovating and growing before the massive importation of H1-B workers?

And the claim that everything would stop if there were no H1-Bs is like saying there would be no education if the Department of Education was abolished.

Well. Try it and see what happens.

I'm right. And you know I'm right. :)

[Brian4Liberty]

And I thought he was joking... now I'm confused.

Sarcasm meter failure? I have been doing a lot of rewiring lately.


Well. Try it and see what happens.

Agree. There's only one way to know for sure. We must try it.

[timosman]

If you remove the H1-B Visa, you collapse the economy. Period. :)

As was mentioned some place in the thread earlier, there are no Americans who can do these jobs. The American education system is a failure. And they better fix it soon because all of the brains are going back to their countries. We're seing Silicon Valleys popping up all over the world now. China, India, elsewhere...

These foreign people here on the H1-B do not just control jobs. They control entire industries. Without the H1-B there would be no Silicon Valley in America.

What exactly have we gotten from the Silicon Valley innovations in the last 10 years? Just like the rest of the economy it has become a money laundering operation. Name one profitable startup.:cool:

[Natural Citizen]

What exactly have we gotten from the Silicon Valley innovations in the last 10 years?

Like I said. The geniuses are going back home. They're coming here, they're getting an education, and they're going home. And I'll repeat that we're starting to see Silicon Valleys in China, India and elsewhere.

I'm pretty sure we can figure out how this story ends. American kids aren't learning to produce anything. They're learning only to be good little consumers of foreign goods made buy some kid who got the education here instead of our kids getting it. They're learning to be dependent on the products of other countries. It's why I've always supported STEM programs in public schools.

And before anyone gives me the business about government run schools, I agree with you. But I don't see anybody doing anything about it. All I see is a bunch of talk and posturing. So if were gonna have it, then at least educate them in a relevant way instead of the usual bow and obey books and lessons.

I've sat on a couple STEM boards in public school. So I have at least some background on the matter.

[Danke]

What exactly have we gotten from the Silicon Valley innovations in the last 10 years? Just like the rest of the economy it has become a money laundering operation. Name one profitable startup.:cool:

I don't know the name of his company, but I was recently visited by a Cambodian immigrant my church sponsored over 30 years ago, I bought him boots after I saw him waiting for the school bus in cold Minnesota temperatures with just flimsy tennis shoes on. His company was bought out by Cisco. He is a rich man now, tendering his garden. I think he wrote a big check to the church during his visit.

[Natural Citizen]

Just like the rest of the economy it has become a money laundering operation.

I forgot to answer this.

This is what we call mercantilism. We used to kind of have capitalism and a truly free market. But what we have now is mercantilism. Mix that in with fascism (the merge of corporation and state) and it's over. Heck, I've heard some people try to pawn this off as 'libertarian' even.

[timosman]

I don't know the name of his company, but I was recently visited by a Cambodian immigrant my church sponsored over 30 years ago, I bought him boots after I saw him waiting for the school bus in cold Minnesota temperatures with just flimsy tennis shoes on. His company was bought out by Cisco. He is a rich man now, tendering his garden. I think he wrote a big check to the church during his visit.

Was his company profitable or he simply found a sucker with a fat wallet?:cool:

[Danke]

Was his company profitable or he simply found a sucker with a fat wallet?:cool:

His company created a router that was faster than what anyone else had. I think like twice as fast.

[timosman]

His company created a router that was faster than what anyone else had. I think like twice as fast.

I think you are missing a part of the story. :cool:

[Danke]

I think you are missing a part of the story. :cool:

Like what?

[timosman]

Like what?

How am I supposed to know? Twice as fast is not significant plus a better technology does not always win. It is all about having the right connections. Maybe he got lucky during an elevator ride and pitched it to somebody.

[Danke]

How am I supposed to know? Twice as fast is not significant plus a better technology does not always win. It is all about having the right connections. Maybe he got lucky during an elevator ride and pitched it to somebody.


Well, my eyes glazed over when he tried to explain it to me, plus he has a strong accent. So I really don't know all the details. But both him and his brother are hard workers, I know that. He got sponsored first, and eventually got his brother, then mother and sister over here. His father died when they were escaping Cambodia. His story of the journey is incredible.


anyway, he is an engineer. He studied hard and became something. To try and demean his accomplishments by somehow saying he was "connected" is an insult to him. He went to one of the worst public schools here, and still beat all odds learning English and math etc.

[timosman]

Well, my eyes glazed over when he tried to explain it to me, plus he has a strong accent. So I really don't know all the details. But both him and his brother are hard workers, I know that. He got sponsored first, and eventually got his brother, then mother and sister over here. His father died when they were escaping Cambodia. His story of the journey is incredible.


anyway, he is an engineer. He studied hard and became something. To try and demean his accomplishments by somehow saying he was "connected" is an insult to him. He went to one of the worst public schools here, and still beat all odds learning English and math etc.

Same with trying to portray him as a typical example. I have heard myself of quite a few lottery winners. :cool:

[timosman]

Well, my eyes glazed over when he tried to explain it to me, plus he has a strong accent. So I really don't know all the details. But both him and his brother are hard workers, I know that. He got sponsored first, and eventually got his brother, then mother and sister over here. His father died when they were escaping Cambodia. His story of the journey is incredible.


anyway, he is an engineer. He studied hard and became something. To try and demean his accomplishments by somehow saying he was "connected" is an insult to him. He went to one of the worst public schools here, and still beat all odds learning English and math etc.

Is this your guy's company - https://www.cnet.com/news/procket-lures-cisco-exec-into-ceo-spot/ ?

[Brian4Liberty]

Was his company profitable or he simply found a sucker with a fat wallet?:cool:

That's what it's all about now. M&A. The big boys all need to show growth, and the best way to do that is acquisitions. They pay outrageous amounts to keep up the appearance of growth. That is the goal of the majority of start-ups. Do something to attract the big players, and the sell-out is like winning the lottery. Needless to say, this does restrain true competition, but the people involved don't care if it's lucrative for them.

[Brian4Liberty]

Like I said. The geniuses are going back home. They're coming here, they're getting an education, and they're going home. And I'll repeat that we're starting to see Silicon Valleys in China, India and elsewhere.

I'm pretty sure we can figure out how this story ends. American kids aren't learning to produce anything. They're learning only to be good little consumers of foreign goods made buy some kid who got the education here instead of our kids getting it. They're learning to be dependent on the products of other countries. It's why I've always supported STEM programs in public schools.

And before anyone gives me the business about government run schools, I agree with you. But I don't see anybody doing anything about it. All I see is a bunch of talk and posturing. So if were gonna have it, then at least educate them in a relevant way instead of the usual bow and obey books and lessons.

I've sat on a couple STEM boards in public school. So I have at least some background on the matter.

I have been involved in recruiting, and have talked to my share of college kids. Since about 2000, American kids have been discouraged from STEM degrees by the knowledge that companies are only hiring foreign workers. By the same token, some foreign kids are moving into STEM fields simply becuase they believe their connections will make it easier for them to find jobs.

And becoming educated in the US is one of the easiest and well-known paths to US citizenship. All of these factors have resulted in the situation we have today. It has nothing at all to do with the intelligence or skill levels of Americans vs. these foreign students, and everything to do with hiring preferences, enticements and politics.

[Superfluous Man]

Since about 2000, American kids have been discouraged from STEM degrees by the knowledge that companies are only hiring foreign workers.

That is shear baloney.

[Brian4Liberty]

That is shear baloney.

The real world is a different place than your cocoon.

[juleswin]

That is shear baloney.

This misinformation about colleges in the US is scary. People take anecdotal information from X college campus and extrapolate to all US colleges and their students. Colleges encourage the hell out of their students to do stem courses. There are scholarship left and right and they put on so many conferences and events to hook students in.

[specsaregood]

The real world is a different place than your cocoon.

I was happy to see this recently. I hope its the beginning of a trend. Its something Ive been promoting for years.

https://careers.linkedin.com/reach/AboutReach


REACH is a 6 month apprenticeship program where you will be placed on one of our functional engineering teams, learn from our managers, and develop applications at scale. You will gain insight to what it’s like to work as a software engineer at LinkedIn and gain experience that will be leveraged for a future career in software engineering.

At the end of the program, successful apprentices have the potential to be offered a full time software engineering role. This position is a short-term employee role for 6 months in our Sunnyvale office.

Our first cohort started in April 2017 with 29 talented and passionate apprentices joining LinkedIn!

We are targeting a second cohort for later this year. If you would like to stay up-to-date on our program and future cohorts, please join our mailing list and provide your contact info through this form.

LinkedIn’s vision is to create economic opportunity for every member of the global workforce. This program is designed for candidates who have non-traditional career paths. We encourage applications from candidates without Computer Science degrees who are self-taught, re-entering the workforce, starting second careers, veterans, or those who have attended boot camp style programming courses.

More at link...


IT and programming apprenticeship programs are a great idea.

[Krugminator2]

That is shear baloney.


I don't know that people are being discouraged as much as Asians are just better students and STEM is encouraged culturally.

Being a fellow Wolverine, I am just curious what you notice about these pictures. Does anything stick out? http://www.engin.umich.edu/ioe/people/grad/masters
http://www.engin.umich.edu/ioe/people/grad/phd/ph-d-students

[Brian4Liberty]

This misinformation about colleges in the US is scary. People take anecdotal information from X college campus and extrapolate to all US colleges and their students. Colleges encourage the hell out of their students to do stem courses. There are scholarship left and right and they put on so many conferences and events to hook students in.

Yeah, it would be hard to see a University discourage someone from going for a STEM degree. Did anyone say that has happened?

I said "American kids have been discouraged from STEM degrees by the knowledge that companies are only hiring foreign workers".

I did not say that the University, their counselors, or their recruiters are trying to discourage anyone. They are discouraged by hearing that foreigners are getting hired over them. They are discouraging by hearing that pay is going down. They are discouraged by hearing that their grand parents or parents were forced to train their foreign replacement. They are discouraged by hearing that they are less capable than foreigners at these majors. They are discouraged by walking into a classroom that is 80% or more foreigners.

A happy sales pitch doesn't always overcome what they hear about in the real world.

[TheCount]

I said "American kids have been discouraged from STEM degrees by the knowledge that companies are only hiring foreign workers".Anyone who has that 'knowledge' should probably stay away from STEM degrees for other reasons.

[Superfluous Man]

The real world is a different place than your cocoon.

It is also a different place than your make believe stories.

[Brian4Liberty]

It is also a different place than your make believe stories.

Tell us all about your experience in high tech, Mr. Pupa.

[juleswin]

Yeah, it would be hard to see a University discourage someone from going for a STEM degree. Did anyone say that has happened?

I said "American kids have been discouraged from STEM degrees by the knowledge that companies are only hiring foreign workers".

I did not say that the University, their counselors, or their recruiters are trying to discourage anyone. They are discouraged by hearing that foreigners are getting hired over them. They are discouraging by hearing that pay is going down. They are discouraged by hearing that their grand parents or parents were forced to train their foreign replacement. They are discouraged by hearing that they are less capable than foreigners at these majors. They are discouraged by walking into a classroom that is 80% or more foreigners.

A happy sales pitch doesn't always overcome what they hear about in the real world.

Thanks for the correction/clarification but someone should also inform these kids that those stories of their grandparents having to train their foreign replacements are greatly exaggerated. The chances that a company would replace your job with an equally experienced employee is next to zero. Also there is just 1 or 2 STEM job fields that experience this phenomena at all. Kids should still strive for STEM job because they are for the most part very secured, lucrative job titles in the US.

[Brian4Liberty]

lso there is just 1 or 2 STEM job fields that experience this phenomena at all. Kids should still strive for STEM job because they are for the most part very secured, lucrative job titles in the US.

Agree. It is very degree specific. It's the IT fields that have been taken over by the mass influx. Degrees like Information Technology, Information Systems, Information Science and Computer Science. There are plenty of other STEM fields where this is not a huge issue (yet).

A couple of years ago, a first generation (his parents immigrated to the US) Indian student that I knew changed his major from Computer Engineering to Computer Science. The engineering program he was in was diverse. When he interned and saw the real world, he switched. Basically, it was Indian IT people telling him, "drop that engineering degree, go IT and join us, we guarantee you an easy job".

[Natural Citizen]

I have been involved in recruiting, and have talked to my share of college kids..

I'm sure that you have, Brian. And I commend you for it. I know about the college campus recruiting efforts. That's something that I haven't personally became involved with that but I know that it's been a successful effort. To some extent.


Since about 2000, American kids have been discouraged from STEM degrees by the knowledge that companies are only hiring foreign workers.

Right. But these companies are hiring foreign workers who came here and got the education that American youth didn't. The majority of the top technical colleges run flunkout programs. And toward the end of this response, I'm gonna take you back to 1994 and show you exactly why these kids (now in college) aren't qualified to be phd candidate in the STEM department. Just click on that link for a precise, correct, and thorough explanation. I know that because I went to war with the department of education about it for a very long time.


By the same token, some foreign kids are moving into STEM fields simply becuase they believe their connections will make it easier for them to find jobs.

50% of all PHD candidates are foreign born. And in some cases 100% are foreign born depending on the university. It's beyond just jobs. These people create entire industries. And, again, we're seeing Silicon Valleys popping up in India and China and elsewhere now. Where did they come from? They came from America via the H-1B. Without the H-1B many colleges wouldnt even exist in America.


And becoming educated in the US is one of the easiest and well-known paths to US citizenship. All of these factors have resulted in the situation we have today. It has nothing at all to do with the intelligence or skill levels of Americans vs. these foreign students, and everything to do with hiring preferences, enticements and politics

American graduates regularly compete at the level of third world countries, Brian. Surely you must know this. This is a fact. Do we need to rehash common core to demonstrate? That's just a popular term for the evolution of it, by the way. Common core has been around since the early 90s. It just wasn't called common core. Traditional math linguistics were killed by TERC. Although each course had it's own alter ego of 'TERC'. I only offer TERC here because we're talking about the STEM departments where traditional math is, of course, expected to be uderstood by any given phd candidate, foreign or American. Here's an example of what American Math students have been learnng sunce the early 90s based on the 1994 model that It's Time to Abandon Computational Algorithms (http://wgquirk.com/TERC.html) Read that and tell me that these kids, in their late 20s now, are gonna compete with the phd candidates here on the H1-B. Again, 50% of phd candidates are foreign born. 100% in many science colleges.

Also, America hasn't contributed anything of significance since Apollo. And even that technology is being produced by foreign nations while our youth have been taught merely to consume, bow, and obey since the 80s that I can think of. I think Reagan opened up those floodgates so that kids were advertising targets for Chinese junk instead of educating them. I forget the name of the law(corporate penned, btw, by the same people who produced tjer stuff overseas.) but I can sure find it.

[Natural Citizen]

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by juleswin http://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?p=6467079#post6467079) lso there is just 1 or 2 STEM job fields that experience this phenomena at all. Kids should still strive for STEM job because they are for the most part very secured, lucrative job titles in the US.Agree. It is very degree specific. It's the IT fields that have been taken over by the mass influx. Degrees like Information Technology, Information Systems, Information Science and Computer Science. There are plenty of other STEM fields where this is not a huge issue (yet).

A couple of years ago, a first generation (his parents immigrated to the US) Indian student that I knew changed his major from Computer Engineering to Computer Science. The engineering program he was in was diverse. When he interned and saw the real world, he switched. Basically, it was Indian IT people telling him, "drop that engineering degree, go IT and join us, we guarantee you an easy job".

You can't compartmentalize this issue like that. If there is a chain of argument, then every link in the chain must work, otherwise you're left with bunch of really important outliers that were ignored in your observation of the problem which ultimately become non sequiturs to you, but left behind for somone else to address because you didnt pay attention to the fundamental outliers to the larger issue. lol. You know who said it best? Michio Kaku. He correctly pointed out that science as a whole is the engine that drives prosperity. From steam power to electricity to the laser to the transister....to the computer...we're talking about the scientific establishment of this country. Without the H-1B, the scientific establishment of this country would collapse. Forget about Silicon Valley. There would be no Silicion Valley without the H-1B. Once the scientific establishment of this country collapses, the economy collapses, too.

I agree with Michio on this one. Sorry guys. I really think you guys are misunderstanding the nature of statistics here. And I think you're counting only your hits and disregarding your misses. Observational selection. Post hoc, ergo propter hoc in relation to the Indian gentleman, not to mention your argument is offered from a perspective of adverse consequences in the first place. Confusion of correlation and causation as the late Sagan liked to say. And again, I offer this respectfully.

[Natural Citizen]

There's a much bigger discussion here. And I know the reason it's being avoided. It's because some friends will get caught up tripping over their own horse pucky if the larger issue is inserted into the terms of controvery here. That's something else. Respectfully. lol. It's okay. I love yuns all just the same. Actually, I don't recall reading anything here about free/forced trade either. Although mercantilism was mentioned.

Proceed...

[Natural Citizen]

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Superfluous Man http://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?p=6467025#post6467025)


It is also a different place than your make believe stories.




Tell us all about your experience in high tech, Mr. Pupa.

lol. Okay, that was funny.

[Natural Citizen]

Hey, Brian, I just want to tell you that I'm not mad at you or anything. Sorry if I came off in a bad way. I was trying to be as respectful as I could. Yet offer legitimate reasons for my disagreement with the topic of the H-1B as a whole as well as compartmentalization of the issues as a consequence of political opinion.

The thing is that I just don't give a crap anymore. Seriously. lol. But here's the thing. It's a wonderful feeling. I absolutely love it. I should have tried this a long time ago.

[helmuth_hubener]

To sum up:

We are educating vast numbers of foreigners.

We are not educating Americans very well.

We are preferentially hiring vast numbers of foreigners.

We are not hiring Americans as much.

None of these elements necessarily has causal priority. No reason to argue with each other over that. They all feed off of each other in a downward (erowe/Super would say "upward") spiral of multicultural vibrancy.

[Brian4Liberty]

50% of all PHD candidates are foreign born. And in some cases 100% are foreign born depending on the university. It's beyond just jobs. These people create entire industries.

Going to school in the US is one of the main legal pathways to citizenship. This is an artificial enticement. And admittedly, some cultures value education more than others.


And, again, we're seeing Silicon Valleys popping up in India and China and elsewhere now. Where did they come from? They came from America via the H1-B. Without the H1-B many colleges wouldnt even exist in America.

They come from US Silicon Valley companies opening up new sites in other places. RTP for example. And yes, if a person needs to look up that acronym, that would be a red flag that a person does not have a whole lot of knowledge of the subject.

I agree that people who were educated in the US can go back to their home nation and work there, but they are not creating these "new Silicon Valleys" absent US companies, US R&D, US education and US consumers (both retail and subcontracting).

Universities turn people away. We have a lack of supply of higher education. We need more competition in education. Less foreign students opens up space for Americans that want to learn.


American graduates regularly compete at the level of third world countries, Brian. Surely you must know this. This is a fact. Do we need to rehash common core to demonstrate? That's just a popular term for the evolution of it, by the way. Common core has been around since the early 90s. It just wasn't called common core. Traditional math linguistics were killed by TERC. Although each course had it's own alter ego of 'TERC'. I only offer TERC here because we're talking about the STEM departments where traditional math is, of course, expected to be uderstood by any given phd candidate, foreign or American. Here's an example of what American Math students have been learnng sunce the early 90s based on the 1994 model that It's Time to Abandon Computational Algorithms (http://wgquirk.com/TERC.html) Read that and tell me that these kids, in their late 20s now, are gonna compete with the phd candidates here on the H1-B. Again, 50% of phd candidates are foreign born. 100% in many science colleges.

Granted, US education standards and education ethic has suffered, but I'm not willing to throw in the towel on the youth of America.


Also, America hasn't contributed anything of significance since Apollo.

OK, so I'll take that as hyperbole. The internet was not created in Mumbai. Cell phone technology was not developed in Zhongguancun.


And even that technology is being produced by foreign nations while our youth have been taught merely to consume, bow, and obey since the 80s that I can think of. I think Reagan opened up those floodgates so that kids were advertising targets for Chinese junk instead of educating them. I forget the name of the law(corporate penned, btw, by the same people who produced tjer stuff overseas.) but I can sure find it.

Once again, I'm not giving up on American kids. They have every opportunity to learn if they want to. They just need the proper motivation. And telling them they are ignorant, incapable and their jobs will be taken by foreigners will not help motivate them.

[susano]

We already beat this dead horse so let's not get into the details again. Would you at least agree that eliminating the H1B program is WAY down on the list of our problems? If we completely eliminate the H1B program, you won't notice squat either way. We've got not just one, but dozens of massive elephants in the room and we're worried about a speck of dust. How about SS, Medicare, Defense spending, tax reform, minimum wage, money printing, socialized healthcare (Obamacare or Trumpcare), etc, etc.

A combination of xenophobia and hatred of big business has turned this from a teensy tiny molehill to the Himalayas.

The Financial International bankrolled Lenin and Trotsky. Take that for what it's worth.

Communists and libertarians are so much alike.

It's not a molehill to me or millions of other Americans. Perhaps if you had to train your foreign replacement you might better understand. The purpose of globalization, open borders and multikulti is to destroy cohesive populations, lessening obstacles to centralized global corporate control and the global plantation, which includes the race to the bottom. In Marxist revolutionary theory, the solution to such artificially created misery is bloody revolution and the communist international.

[Superfluous Man]

Tell us all about your experience in high tech, Mr. Pupa.

I won't talk about specifics of my personal life. But it's significant enough to know what I'm talking about.

Also, if what you said were factual, you wouldn't need to rely on anecdotes.

[susano]

Sorry but the stupidity of this article hurts my neurons. This part in particular.

So while public property is property funded by taxpayers through expropriated taxes; belongs to taxpayers; is to be managed for their benefit—at least one million additional immigrants a year, including recipients of the H-1B visa, are allowed the free use of taxpayer-supported infrastructure and amenities. Every new arrival avails himself of public works such as roads, hospitals, parks, libraries, schools, and welfare.

Ummm....H1B visa holders pay taxes. Many of them pay more taxes than the average native born American. And most of them send their kids to private schools because, frankly, American public schools suck. I can see complaining about immigrants using welfare or the public school system. But complaining about immigrants using "muh roads?" Seriously?

Okay. Substitute "tourist" for "H1B visa holders." It would be wrong to give tourists food stamps. But should you keep tourists off the roads? If they are driving, they buy gas and pay gas taxes. If they are paying someone else to drive, like an Uber driver, the person they hired is buying gas and paying gas taxes. Maybe you can make the argument that tourists are using "welfare" when they use public transportation so....ban tourism? :rolleyes:

Really, anti immigrant conservatives are as bad as statist liberals. Once in a family law class the teacher brought up "octomom" (the lady that had 8 kids at once.) Most of the class was like "Oh....that's so terrible! That should be banned!" Mind you everyone was all for any type of "alternative" family. Two guys or two gals? Perfect. Family having 8 kids? Terrible! Their reasoning "They are using up our precious resources." I was like "But what if they aren't on welfare?" One particularly angry witch droned "I used to work in a public school and I saw how all these kids come in and they use this and that." so I said "And if the kids are home schooled?" She was like "They use our electricity!" So I countered "And if they are off grid?" Then she shut up.

I'm seeing the same thing with the anti immigrant crowd. Sure, I don't want people coming here and getting on welfare. But getting on our roads? Are you freaking kidding me?

Oh, AND THE ARTICLE FLAT OUT LIED BY STATING THAT H1B VISA PARTICIPANTS GET WELFARE!

Stupid article. Worst I have ever read on the subject.

I believe she referenced chain migration and the relatives of the visa holders getting the welfare benefits. Are you claiming they don't?

[susano]

Another exaggeration about the opposition. The issue is really about the immorality of the elites which clearly is being ignored and their propaganda propagated here. Prior to the 80s they would be called out for their immorality and some corporations would actually serve the people here and their community equally with the quest for profits. But now it is solely about majority shareholder value over everything no matter the consequences and without any allegiance to the people of this country. God forbid you call out their immorality since people have now been brainwashed to believe that some how makes you against free markets, some how promoting regulations or a Communist.

The globalists and those supporting these policies are the enemy of the majority of Americans more than any foreign power.

And, actually, the ones pushing globalism, open borders and multikulti are the ones advocating international communism/Trotskyism, whether they are aware of it or not.

[susano]

Does anyone really think jobs would go unfilled or undone without this program ? I am not seeing that .I ran many different large specialized facilities without ever using any and I have only been out of that for a year.

Nope. Hence the ongoing import and replace racket where already employed Americans are put in the position of having to train their lower paid foreign replacements or lose their severance pay as the door hits them in the ass on their way out.

[susano]

Best I can tell , people in the US are not buying many products made in the US . I am in one of the last few remaining areas heavily involved in Mnfg and there is only one Co here employing these people .

My sister lives in a small town in western Michigan. Depressed economy and she's gone through several jobs in the last year and a half. One was in a bakery which she couldn't hack. Eight hour days with high heat, no lunch break, low pay. Two 10 minute breaks, though. Other than a few Americans, the place is mostly Mexicans who can handle the high heat and grueling no lunch conditions because they're used to it. But, hey, cheaper bread and more profit for the owner, right? That seems to be the argument put forth by some here.

Race
to
the
bottom

[Superfluous Man]

I believe she referenced chain migration and the relatives of the visa holders getting the welfare benefits. Are you claiming they don't?

Their children can.

But so can the children of citizens. So what? Yes, welfare shouldn't exist. But that has nothing to do with immigration.

[Superfluous Man]

And, actually, the ones pushing globalism, open borders and multikulti are the ones advocating international communism/Trotskyism, whether they are aware of it or not.


That's not true. Ron Paul is not advocating communism/Trotskyism.

In fact it's the exact opposite. Immigration regulation has always been a socialist scheme and still is today. You don't see free market proponents pushing it. You only see commies like Trump pushing it.

[Brian4Liberty]

I won't talk about specifics of my personal life. But it's significant enough to know what I'm talking about.

Also, if what you said were factual, you wouldn't need to rely on anecdotes.

What part exactly do you know about? You have provided no evidence at all for your positions.

The real world is a series of anecdotes. A survey does not make them any more or less real. It might quantify some things, if it is a well-designed and thorough study, which the vast majority are not. Every special interest can come up with stats that support their agendas. Zippy is the expert at stats. Nothing is real unless it comes from a government source. :rolleyes:

Here's a stat for you:


Nationally, computer science is the only STEM (science, technology, engineering and mathematics) field that has seen a decrease in student participation in the last 20 years (Time). (http://www.exploringcs.org/resources/cs-statistics)

A decrease in the last 20 years. Now why would that be? Could it possibly be for the reasons I have heard from actual students who have decided against computer science?


I have been involved in recruiting, and have talked to my share of college kids. Since about 2000, American kids have been discouraged from STEM degrees by the knowledge that companies are only hiring foreign workers. ...


...
They are discouraged by hearing that foreigners are getting hired over them. They are discouraging by hearing that pay is going down. They are discouraged by hearing that their grand parents or parents were forced to train their foreign replacement. They are discouraged by hearing that they are less capable than foreigners at these majors. They are discouraged by walking into a classroom that is 80% or more foreigners.
...

[Brian4Liberty]

Public schools working hard to make US kids competitive in Computer Science. Or not.


Huh? Schools Think Kids Don’t Want to Learn Computer Science
...
In a big survey conducted with Gallup and released today, Google found a range of dysfunctional reasons more K-12 students aren’t learning computer science skills. Perhaps the most surprising: schools don’t think the demand from parents and students is there.

Google and Gallup spent a year and a half surveying thousands of students, parents, teachers, principals, and superintendents across the US. And it’s not that parents don’t want computer science for their kids. A full nine in ten parents surveyed viewed computer science education as a good use of school resources. It’s the gap between actual and perceived demand that appears to be the problem.

“Most principals and superintendents surveyed say it is important to offer computer science education,” the survey’s authors wrote. “However, given the tendency to prioritize subjects that are included in required testing, computer science is not a top priority.”

Perhaps even more troubling, the very people elected to represent the interests of parents and the community don’t seem to get it.

“Less than half of principals and superintendents surveyed say their school board thinks offering computer science education is important.”
...
More: https://www.wired.com/2015/08/schools-dont-think-kids-want-learn-computer-science/

[Superfluous Man]

What part exactly do you know about? You have provided no evidence at all for your positions.

Neither have you. Your claim to have heard someone give you a bogus totally uninformed reason for why they didn't choose some career doesn't count as evidence for the conclusion that more H1B Visas in these fields where there's nowhere near enough supply of labor to meet the demand is somehow creating a disincentive in the market as a whole for Americans to go into those fields and to choose other fields where the demand is lower and they will get paid less and have less job security instead.



A decrease in the last 20 years. Now why would that be? Could it possibly be for the reasons I have heard from actual students who have decided against computer science?

No. That makes no sense. Even if you're telling the truth, you're listening to people making excuses for themselves or else are just trying to feed into a nationalist ideology. Foreign workers are not making it harder for Americans to get high tech jobs. The demand is there if they want to do the work to go into those fields.

In fact, government intervention to make it harder to hire foreign workers will only make more whole companies move overseas to hire those workers, and the demand for high tech labor in the US will go down.

Come to think of it, I've heard anecdotes from Americans who decided not to become computer programmers because they were worried that Trump was going to reduce H1B Visas and cause their potential employers to relocate overseas. They decided to become poets and philosophers instead.

[r3volution 3.0]

These arguments always revolve around reductionism to were we just need to get government out of this or that to solve the problem. But the realist know that that will not happen overnight. So as a practical interim solution, let's limit what we can do in the here and now. We know hospitals cannot refuse patients even though many patients have no means to pay. So maybe we should limit those who come to our country without means.

The practical solution is to limit immigrants' access to welfare, not limit immigration.

More people support the former than the latter (everyone who supports the latter would support the former, but not vice versa).

[helmuth_hubener]

Even if you're telling the truthBad form, erowe. Bad form.

[susano]

Their children can.

But so can the children of citizens. So what? Yes, welfare shouldn't exist. But that has nothing to do with immigration.

Chain migration doesn't mean their children unless the visa who comes has children who follow (not US citizens). It generally means spouses, siblings, grandparents and possibly more. One person gets the visa, with a job, and the rest of the family, without jobs or even language skills, comes here with no requirement to be able to support themselves.

[susano]

Their children can.

But so can the children of citizens. So what? Yes, welfare shouldn't exist. But that has nothing to do with immigration.

And, btw, just because you think welfare shouldn't exist doesn't mean jack. It does exist and it has everything to do with immigration as many immigrants and illegal aliens receive all kinds of "benefits". If you feel welfare should not exist than you're putting the cart before the horse on your open borders stance. I believe it was Milton Freidman (could be wrong on that) who said you cannot have open borders AND a welfare state. You can have one or the other. Obviously, the result of doing both is more debt, money creation and eventual collapse. If you want open borders then you need end the welfare state first.

None of this addresses the other important impacts of mass migration but I doubt you'd care about that anyway.

[r3volution 3.0]

I believe it was Milton Freidman (could be wrong on that) who said you cannot have open borders AND a welfare state. You can have one or the other. Obviously, the result of doing both is more debt, money creation and eventual collapse. If you want open borders then you need end the welfare state first.

So how about it?

What would happen if anti-immigrant people shifted their focus from restricting immigration to denying them welfare benefits?

Why is that not an option?

[susano]

That's not true. Ron Paul is not advocating communism/Trotskyism.

In fact it's the exact opposite. Immigration regulation has always been a socialist scheme and still is today. You don't see free market proponents pushing it. You only see commies like Trump pushing it.

You are mistaken. Marxist internationalism is no nation states and absolute freedom of movement (labor following capital). There is no "immigration regulation" because there are no nation states. Just one big global plantation.

IIRC, Ron Paul changed his mind about mass immigration a few years ago and even supported increased border control. Whether he did or not, though, doesn't matter to me. Open borders will destroy the United States as sure they're destroying Europe and the massive illegal alien population has turned California into an overtaxed, third world, commie shithole.

[susano]

So how about it?

What would happen if anti-immigrant people shifted their focus from restricting immigration to denying them welfare benefits?

Why is that not an option?

It is an option for anyone feeling strongly enough about it. I'm just sayin' that you can't have both. Those advocating open borders but who oppose any form of welfare have it ass backwards.

[r3volution 3.0]

It is an option for anyone feeling strongly enough about it. I'm just sayin' that you can't have both. Those advocating open borders but who oppose any form of welfare have it ass backwards.

Point is, the "since there's welfare, we have to restrict immigration" argument makes no sense.

It presupposes that it's impossible to cut welfare for immigrants, when that's actually more politically feasible than further restricting immigration.

[susano]

Point is, the "since there's welfare, we have to restrict immigration" argument makes no sense.

It presupposes that it's impossible to cut welfare for immigrants, when that's actually more politically feasible than further restricting immigration.

That's not what I said. I said you can't have both. There are many other reasons to oppose mass immigration besides the fact that immigrants and illegal aliens receive welfare.

[r3volution 3.0]

There are many other reasons to oppose mass immigration besides the fact that immigrants and illegal aliens receive welfare.

Such as?

[Natural Citizen]

A decrease in the last 20 years. Now why would that be? Could it possibly be for the reasons I have heard from actual students who have decided against computer science?



No.

The vast majority of these students are simply pulling out their arbitrary victim status card because they don't understand that they had an inferior education. They simply aren't qualified to be phd candidates in these fields because the information revolution's weakness is precisely the education system. America has the worst education system known to math and science. The worst part is that they really don't know this. If they did, we wouldn't need to go to campuses to pass out literature, now would we?








http://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty http://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?p=6467000#post6467000)
...
They are discouraged by hearing that foreigners are getting hired over them. They are discouraging by hearing that pay is going down. They are discouraged by hearing that their grand parents or parents were forced to train their foreign replacement. They are discouraged by hearing that they are less capable than foreigners at these majors. They are discouraged by walking into a classroom that is 80% or more foreigners.



See? They hear things. They see things. But I doubt very highly that they are of the geopolitical aptitude to relate what they are seeing and hearing to the reality of the situation. They think they are qualified because they don't know they got an inferior education. To them, they think they got great education. But they didn't. They forgot that in todays American education system, everybody is on the honor roll. lol. You know it and I know it. It's just another example of the entitlement mindset.

And unfortunately for them, they don't have a right to have their feelings addressed. It's okay. Just give them a sticker and a mop and call them the last winner.

The problem with the H1B is the grade school and high school education system. That needs to be resolved. But you guys are against the education system so you're stuck in your own horse pucky and trying to circlejerk around the issue and compartmentalize it into something else. I suppose mom and dad (if there is such a situation) can teach junior the mathematical prerequisites for quantum physics if he can pull them away from Dancing With The Stars and their McMac for 5 minutes. Couldn't they?

[Madison320]

So how about it?

What would happen if anti-immigrant people shifted their focus from restricting immigration to denying them welfare benefits?

Why is that not an option?

I think that's what irritates me the most about this. Even if immigration is a net negative (which I don't think it is), the negative effects are MICROSCOPIC compared to the REAL problems we have. It's such wasted energy.

[r3volution 3.0]

I think that's what irritates me the most about this. Even if immigration is a net negative (which I don't think it is), the negative effects are MICROSCOPIC compared to the REAL problems we have. It's such wasted energy.

Indeed. Even by the estimate of anti-immigrant group FAIRUS, total government spending (all levels, but excluding national defense) per illegal immigrant is $10,272. If we assume all immigrants cost this much (a generous assumption, since legal immigrants are richer and therefore consume fewer benefits), that works out to $451 billion (given 44 million immigrants), or 6% of the total ($7.04 trillion). By contrast, total spending on natives (again sans national defense) is $5.653 trillion (80% of the total); while spending per native is about twice as much at $20,407. This is largely driven by social security and medicare, which accounts for more than a fifth of the budget and goes almost exclusively to natives.

[timosman]

I think that's what irritates me the most about this. Even if immigration is a net negative (which I don't think it is), the negative effects are MICROSCOPIC compared to the REAL problems we have. It's such wasted energy.

As measured by FRNs as nothing else matters to the free market "advocates":rolleyes:

[timosman]

A decrease in the last 20 years. Now why would that be?

Have you heard of Agile?:(

[timosman]

RTP for example. And yes, if a person needs to look up that acronym, that would be a red flag that a person does not have a whole lot of knowledge of the subject.


Please do everybody a favor and explain what RTP is, pretty please.:D

[Brian4Liberty]

Neither have you. Your claim to have heard someone give you a bogus totally uninformed reason for why they didn't choose some career doesn't count as evidence for the conclusion that more H1B Visas in these fields where there's nowhere near enough supply of labor to meet the demand is somehow creating a disincentive in the market as a whole for Americans to go into those fields and to choose other fields where the demand is lower and they will get paid less and have less job security instead.
...

OK, I provided links with evidence, and all you do is repeat the US Chamber and cheap labor lobby talking points. You have no evidence to back up your claims.

Your sophistry knows no bounds.

[Brian4Liberty]

No.

The vast majority of these students are simply pulling out their arbitrary victim status card because they don't understand that they had an inferior education. They simply aren't qualified to be phd candidates in these fields because the information revolution's weakness is precisely the education system. America has the worst education system known to math and science. The worst part is that they really don't know this. If they did, we wouldn't need to go to campuses to pass out literature, now would we?

See? They hear things. They see things. But I doubt very highly that they are of the geopolitical aptitude to relate what they are seeing and hearing to the reality of the situation. They think they are qualified because they don't know they got an inferior education. To them, they think they got great education. But they didn't. They forgot that in todays American education system, everybody is on the honor roll. lol. You know it and I know it. It's just another example of the entitlement mindset.

And unfortunately for them, they don't have a right to have their feelings addressed. It's okay. Just give them a sticker and a mop and call them the last winner.

The problem with the H1B is the grade school and high school education system. That needs to be resolved. But you guys are against the education system so you're stuck in your own horse pucky and trying to circlejerk around the issue and compartmentalize it into something else. I suppose mom and dad (if there is such a situation) can teach junior the mathematical prerequisites for quantum physics if he can pull them away from Dancing With The Stars and their McMac for 5 minutes. Couldn't they?

Why doesn't this apply to all STEM fields? Why is Computer Science the only STEM field which is decreasing for US students?

Once again:


The percentage of U.S. high school students taking STEM courses has increased over the last 20 years across all STEM disciplines except computer science ...Nationally, computer science is the only STEM (science, technology, engineering and mathematics) field that has seen a decrease in student participation in the last 20 years (http://www.exploringcs.org/resources/cs-statistics)

[Brian4Liberty]

Have you heard of Agile?:(

Sure, that's where the team does Yoga together every day. ;)


Please do everybody a favor and explain what RTP is, pretty please.:D

Real-time Transport Protocol? Release to Production? :toady:

OK, since the subject was new "Silicon Valleys", it's Research Triangle Park in North Carolina. A large, centrally planned R&D area, it's main objective was to draw large companies there for a lower cost of living, tax incentives and prospective employees from local Universities. Started slowly but has been taking off lately as they reach a critical mass.

[enhanced_deficit]

Such a drastic step is quite unlikey.



The man angling to become the U.S. envoy to India shares Trump's ...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/.../trumps.../71b6bf82-9ff5-45a2-b506-ce06cdc6d5e5...
Feb 22, 2017 - Shalabh “Shalli” Kumar, founder of the Republican Hindu Coalition, ... donated $1,162,400 to Trump's campaign and victory fund, ...

H1B issue not a sticking point in India-US ties: Shalabh Kumar
1 Feb, 2017, 10.01AM ISTDuring his campaign, Trump promised to increase oversight of our H-1B and L-1 visa programmes.




Related

Facebook, Microsoft owners enabling torture of civilians for cheap labor? (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?512164-Breaking-on-Drudge-GREAT-AGAIN-India-PM-gives-Trump-bear-hug&p=6489848&viewfull=1#post6489848)

Breaking: India PM gives Trump bear hug... (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?512164-Breaking-on-Drudge-GREAT-AGAIN-India-PM-gives-Trump-bear-hug&)

[showpan]

I'm all about open borders, in a free society, but I'm not about to help destroy western civilization by promoting open borders and immigration when we have a huge welfare state.

JP Morgan makes millions from each states welfare programs. It's a huge chunk of their profits now.
It's never going to end as long as the elite remain in control.

[enhanced_deficit]

Smart move:

Modi invites Ivanka Trump to lead US delegation in India
7 days ago - WASHINGTON: Prime Minister Narendra Modi on Monday invited Ivanka Trump, daughter of US President Donald Trump to India, to lead the US delegation of entrepreneurs.

India PM Modi Before Trump Meeting: We Need U.S. Jobs
Dimitra DeFotis
June 26, 2017
http://www.barrons.com/articles/india-pm-modi-before-trump-meeting-we-need-u-s-jobs-1498501300

[enhanced_deficit]

Is President Trump acting on his recent ultimatum for India's Modi? (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?516241-Is-President-Trump-acting-on-his-recent-ultimatum-for-India-s-Modi&)

Trump's Afghanistan strategy includes a new ultimatum for India
Matthew Pennington, Associated Press
Aug. 22, 2017
"We appreciate India's important contributions to stability in Afghanistan, but India makes billions of dollars in trade with the United States, and we want them to help us more with Afghanistan, especially in the area of economic assistance and development," Trump said.
He didn't elaborate, but the threat was clear, especially given Trump's regular chafing over countries enjoying significant trade surpluses with the United States. Either India must pony up more money for what the Trump administration is calling its "regional approach" to Afghanistan, or it could face commercial repercussions.
The U.S. deficit in goods and services with India last year was about $30 billion. Trump also is reviewing a work visa program heavily used by Indians.

Interpreting Trump’s not-so-subtle threat to India to do more in Afghanistan
One, this is a clear and overt threat: cooperate or else. President Trump has been waving the trade flag in all his perorations concerning India. He has been unequivocal about seeking enhanced market access for US goods and services. The joint press statement issued during prime minister Narendra Modi’s Washington DC visit has him saying: “It is important that barriers be removed to the export of US goods into your markets, and that we reduce our trade deficit with your country.” Indo-US trade touched $114.8 billion during 2016, with India enjoying a $30.8-billion trade surplus. It would seem Trump has made India’s trade with the US contingent upon cooperation in Afghanistan.



US committee passes bill increasing minimum pay of H1B visa holders to $90,000

If made into law, this bill could prove a deterrent to organisations hiring Indian techies.
TNM Staff

Friday, November 17, 2017


http://www.thenewsminute.com/sites/default/files/styles/news_detail/public/The%20White%20House%20FB.jpg?itok=NKBfQfzD


In what could prove to be a hurdle for Indian IT companies, a key US Congressional Committee has voted in favour of passing a legislation that proposes to increase the minimum salaries of H1B visa holders from $60,000 to $90,000, reported PTI.
The Protect and Grow American Jobs Act (HR 170), which also proposes several other restrictions on H1B visa holders, a majority of whom are Indian, was passed by the House Judiciary Committee on Thursday.
According to the PTI report, the bill will next head to the full House. A similar version of the bill will also have to be passed by the Senate after which US President Donald Trump can sign it into law.
Following Trump's election on a protectionist platform, the US has announced stricter norms for issuing the H1B and L1 visas.

H1B visas are one of the most opted visas in the US that provide skilled workers from foreign countries work in a wide range of specialty occupations, including information technology, academic research, and accounting. It is used mostly by Indian IT professionals.

In April, the US administration began enforcing stricter bureaucratic norms for the issuance of H1B visas in order to prevent "fraud and abuse" in the programme.

[euphemia]

There is no logic to the argument we cannot find good people out out the 325 million people that live in the US.

Disney fired 250 native workers in favor of H1B workers. Link (http://www.foxbusiness.com/features/2016/03/01/disney-workers-forced-to-train-their-foreign-replacements.html)

Raising the minimum salaries might well make this kind of move a bad choice in future, but does nothing to help the ones who were fired and still had mortgages, rents, etc.

[enhanced_deficit]

Hopefully no one will confuse "native" with "native Americans".

[enhanced_deficit]

There was apaprenty no change in above policy despite all the noise and yet India has joined China-Europe in a global trade war escalation against US starting today?





India just retaliated with new tariffs on U.S. goods. Here’s why developing economies like tariffs.

by Ida Bastiaens, Nita Rudra and Stacey Williams June 28


In a week that saw President Trump tweet against a wide range of companies and countries, India got its own shout-out for high tariffs (https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1011574256117993472). India joined the European Unionand China to push back against U.S. steel and aluminum tariffs, and notified the World Trade Organization (WTO) last week that it would impose higher import tariffs on 30 U.S. goods (https://www.business-standard.com/article/economy-policy/india-s-retaliatory-tariffs-on-30-us-items-to-rake-in-additional-240-mn-118061700511_1.html), including almonds, shrimp and chocolates.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2018/06/28/india-just-retaliated-with-new-tariffs-on-u-s-goods-heres-why-developing-economies-like-tariffs/


Worldwide retaliation for US tariffs begin on Sunday, putting a 'bull's eye' on wide range of goods (https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/30/canadas-tit-for-tat-tariffs-begin-sunday-and-include-whiskey-ketchup.html)




Fighting back against the Trump administration's steel tariffs, Canada will start collecting duties on a variety of U.S. products, including orange juice, yogurt, whiskey, maple syrup and soups.
Mexico and China will soon start collecting new tariffs on U.S. pork and dairy products.
On July 6, China is expected to unleash a 25 percent tariff on U.S. soybeans, a move that farmers have long dreaded.


Jeff Daniels | @JeffD (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/member.php?u=20706)anielsca

Published 1 Hour Ago Updated 17 Mins Ago




Good news for Indian techies: US Deputy Chief of Mission in India says there is no big change in H-1B visa

H-4 is issued to the spouse of H-1B visa holders, a significantly large number of whom are high-skilled professionals from India.

June 6, 2018 5:12 PM
There have been “no big changes” in the H-1B programme and “nothing new” on the H-4 visa policy, the US said today, amid the Trump administration’s plan to overhaul the immigration system. (Reuters)
There have been “no big changes” in the H-1B programme and “nothing new” on the H-4 visa policy, the US said today, amid the Trump administration’s plan to overhaul the immigration system. US Deputy Chief of Mission (DCM) in Delhi, MaryKay L Carlson said granting employment visa and work permits is the sovereign decision of a country.

https://www.financialexpress.com/world-news/no-big-changes-in-h-1b-visa-us-deputy-chief-of-mission-marykay-l-carlson/1195889/

[timosman]

high-skilled professionals from India.

Here is your problem. :cool:

[timosman]

In the next thread we will be covering how to drain money from US back to India - tax free via ghost workers. You just pay them wages! In one of the places I worked in the past, I was able to locate, on the company chart, a very junior person with 300 contractors reporting. What could she possibly do with them? :confused:

[Brian4Liberty]

In the next thread we will be covering how to drain money from US back to India - tax free via ghost workers. You just pay them wages! In one of the places I worked in the past, I was able to locate, on the company chart, a very junior person with 300 contractors reporting. What could she possibly do with them? :confused:

One of the only times I saw a manager fired was an Indian woman who hired 10-20 "workers" in India via deceptive means. There was no work for them, she was just building an empire. One of those things that is acceptable in many places in the world.

[timosman]

One of the only times I saw a manager fired was an Indian woman who hired 10-20 "workers" in India via deceptive means. There was no work for them, she was just building an empire. One of those things that is acceptable in many places in the world.

Building empires is par for the course in US as well. There are some areas where it is normal hiring low skill workers (<$100k/yr) for the purpose of addressing a real problem which is somewhere else. You end up with a department 100+ strong while the original problem persists. In the meantime the company is still working on the strategy, goes through multiple reorgs, fires and hires people but doesn't really address the elephant in the room because somebody might feel offended. Everybody is 100% busy while the actual output is close to 0% :cool:

[enhanced_deficit]

This was probably not even mentioned in art of the deal:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?527029-Trump-I-want-to-scrap-all-H1B-visas&p=6733646&viewfull=1#post6733646

[enhanced_deficit]

I see no need for it or upside for taxpayers .


It also further enriches diversity.

[Pauls' Revere]

I'm all about open borders, in a free society, but I'm not about to help destroy western civilization by promoting open borders and immigration when we have a huge welfare state.

hears how I see it. I don't want criminals to run around in the society where I live. Be they citizens or not. Every country on the planet locks up criminals within their borders. So, why would ANY country want/accept criminals from any other country? Its the bad apples in the apple cart nobody wants. Seriously, if I can go through a 10 day background check to own a firearm why is the immigration process so long? Why not do a background check, quick physical for gnarly communicable diseases like Ebola and grant citizenship. Put up a wall/barrier/Kinetic Border impediment device for those that try to bypass this. Additionally, demolish the welfare system.

[Itsback]

Self driving car




https://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/inline-images/waymo%20crash.jpg

[enhanced_deficit]

Self driving car




https://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/inline-images/waymo%20crash.jpg


Is there a connection to this topic?

[Itsback]

Is there a connection to this topic?

Self-driving cars is a product from Silicon Valley California

[Superfluous Man]

I agree. The H1B program should be available to any business that wants hire a qualified foreigner, not just certain ones who are granted government favors.

Disagree. The H1B program should be abolished, along with all other visas. Businesses who want to be able to hire foreigners should be able to do so without anyone having to file any paperwork with the government.

[Swordsmyth]

Disagree. The H1B program should be abolished, along with all other visas. Businesses who want to be able to hire foreigners should be able to do so without anyone having to file any paperwork with the government.
That is a recipe for a communist takeover.

[kahless]

That is a recipe for a communist takeover.

Funny how it is the policies of some libertarians that will accelerate a Communist takeover in the US. At some point libertarians need to wake up that they are being played by the elites for that purpose. The only road to achieve a more libertarian like system within the region of the US is to take a more nationalist approach.

[Swordsmyth]

Funny how it is the policies of some libertarians that will accelerate a Communist takeover in the US. At some point libertarians need to wake up that they are being played by the elites for that purpose. The only road to achieve a more libertarian like system within the region of the US is to take a more nationalist approach.
Some of them are useful idiots but others may be in the pay of the "Integrity Initiative":

Major Psy-Op In Europe Exposed: UK Government Tramples On Values It Vowed To Protect (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?528735-Major-Psy-Op-In-Europe-Exposed-UK-Government-Tramples-On-Values-It-Vowed-To-Protect&highlight=Integrity+Initiative)

Covert British Military-Smear Machine Moving Into US (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?530159-Covert-British-Military-Smear-Machine-Moving-Into-US&highlight=Integrity+Initiative)

In a strange twist, Ross appeared on stage at the Integrity Initiative’s Seattle event alongside Emmi Bevensee (https://c4ss.org/content/author/emmi-bevensee), a contributor to the left-libertarian Center for a Stateless Society (C4SS) think tank, whose tagline, “a left market anarchist think-tank” expresses its core aim of uniting far-left anarchists with free-market right-libertarians.
Bevensee (https://c4ss.org/content/author/emmi-bevensee), a PhD candidate at the University of Arizona and self-described “Borderlands anarcho into tech and crypto,” concluded her presentation by asserting a linkage between the alternative news site, Zero Hedge, and the “physical militarized presence in the borderlands” of anti-immigrant vigilantes.
Like Bevensee, Ross has written for (https://c4ss.org/content/49265) C4SS in the past.
The irony of contributors to an anarchist group called the “Center for a Stateless Society” auditioning before The State – the most jackbooted element of it, in fact – for more opportunities to attack anti-war politicians and journalists, can hardly be overstated.
But closer examination of the history of C4SS veers from irony into something much darker and more unsettling.


C4SS was co-founded in 2006 by a confessed child rapist (http://www.classicalite.com/articles/15493/20150123/kansas-city-libertarian-activist-confesses-child-molestation-according-facebook-post.htm) and libertarian activist, Brad ********, who set the group up to promote “Market anarchism” to “replace Marxism on the left.” (https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/molinari-institute/conversations/messages/223)
https://zh-prod-1cc738ca-7d3b-4a72-b792-20bd8d8fa069.storage.googleapis.com/s3fs-public/inline-images/Screen-Shot-2019-01-08-at-12.51.16-AM.png
When ********’s child rape confessions emerged in 2015, the Center for Stateless Society founder was finally drummed out (http://c4ss.org/content/35256) by his colleagues.
There’s more: ********’s understudy (https://historynewsnetwork.org/blog/57119) and deputy (https://web.archive.org/web/20100305112840/http:/c4ss.org/about-the-center) in the C4SS, Kevin Carson — currently listed as the group’s “Karl Hess Chair in Social Theory” (http://c4ss.org/about) — turned out to be a longtime friend and defender (https://twitter.com/exiledonline/status/687142658964369408)of white nationalist Keith Preston. Preston’s name is prominently plastered on the back of Kevin Carson’s book, hailing the C4SS man as “the Proudhon of our time” (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1439221995/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_bibl_vppi_i3) — a loaded compliment, given the unhinged anti-Semitism (https://www.marxists.org/reference/subject/economics/proudhon/1847/jews.htm) of Pierre-Joseph Proudhon, the influential 19thCentury French anarchist.
Carson only disowned (http://mutualist.blogspot.com/2009/05/open-letter-to-keith-preston.html) Preston in 2009, shortly before Preston helped white nationalist leader Richard Spencer launch his alt-right webzine, Alternative Right.
Kevin Carson defending his neo-Nazi bro Keith Preston https://t.co/qfV2y5orQ7 pic.twitter.com/AdzN2S09gM (https://t.co/AdzN2S09gM)
— exiledonline.com (@exiledonline) January 13, 2016 (https://twitter.com/exiledonline/status/687142658964369408?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw)
The C4SS group currently participates (https://c4ss.org/content/51428) in the annual Koch-backed International Students For Liberty conference in Washington, D.C., LibertyCon, (https://www.libertycon.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/LibCon-Program-FINAL-web.pdf) a who’s who of libertarian think-tank hacks and Republican Party semi-celebrities like Steve Forbes, FCC chairman Ajit Pai, and Alan Dershowitz.
In 2013, C4SS’s Kevin Carson tweeted out his dream fantasy that four Jewish leftists—Mark Ames, co-author of this article; Yasha Levine; Corey Robin, and Mark Potok — would die in a plane crash while struggling over a single parachute. Potok was an executive editor at the Southern Poverty Law Center, which last year retracted every one of the crank articles that Alexander Reid Ross published with them and formally apologized (https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2018/03/09/update-multipolar-spin-how-fascists-operationalize-left-wing-resentment) for having run them.
https://zh-prod-1cc738ca-7d3b-4a72-b792-20bd8d8fa069.storage.googleapis.com/s3fs-public/inline-images/KevinCarsonIntegrity.png
For some reason, the super-sleuth Ross conveniently failed to investigate the libertarian group, C4SS, that he has chosen to partner with and publish in. That ability to shamelessly smear and denounce leftists over the most crudely manufactured links to the far-right—while cozying up to groups as sleazy as C4SS and authoritarian as the Integrity Initiative —is the sort of adaptive trait that MI6 spies and the Rendon Group would find useful in a covert domestic influence operation.
Ross did not respond to our request for comment on his involvement with the Integrity Initiative and C4SS.

[scaryassea]

I agree. The H1B program should be available to any business that wants hire a qualified foreigner, not just certain ones who are granted government favors.

I read one of the article where it was "high rank employees or managers of IT/Tech companies are now in U.S government and they make easy laws for foreign workers"

[timosman]

I read one of the article where it was "high rank employees or managers of IT/Tech companies are now in U.S government and they make easy laws for foreign workers"

http://cdn03.androidauthority.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/gettyimages-84512296-e1454457563715.jpg

[NAmerica]

If you remove the H1-B Visa, you collapse the economy. Period. :) As was mentioned some place in the thread earlier, there are no Americans who can do these jobs. The American education system is a failure. And they better fix it soon because all of the brains are going back to their countries. We're seing Silicon Valleys popping up all over the world now. China, India, elsewhere...These foreign people here on the H1-B do not just control jobs. They control entire industries. Without the H1-B there would be no Silicon Valley in America.

American IT/Tech workers trained H1-B visas and then American workers lost their jobs.

On-job training which Indian managers fear like plague in India. In India on job training is removed. They just want experts for low-level jobs. All the nonsense during job interviews in India.

[Pauls' Revere]

Bump

Hell ya! Abolish!

[enhanced_deficit]

Bump

Hell ya! Abolish!

'Diversity is our strength' model could be a factor too in such policy consideration.
However two (MH1BGA (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?527029-Trump-I-want-to-scrap-all-H1B-visas&p=6733646&viewfull=1#post6733646)) and two (Indian man accused of genocide to sleep in Trump’s bed in Israel) don't seem to quite add up.


https://akm-img-a-in.tosshub.com/indiatoday/images/story/201908/israel-770x433.png?cQesD2z7kCMhrjgRIr70qboK8KFXcoJ3
India's Modi to sleep in Trump's bed in Israel

US approves more H-1B visas this year

Oct 14, 2019
Highlights



US has approved a higher number of H-1B applications this year
3.89 lakh applications were approved for the fiscal 2019, up from last year's 3.35 lakh
In past years, more than 70% of the aggregate H-1B visa applications for new jobs and visa extensions given to those born in India


MUMBAI: The US has approved a higher number of H-1B applications (both for initial visas and visa extensions for continued employment) this year, showing that the demand for these work visas continues unabated. This is a relief to Indians, who are the dominant holders of H-1B visas, especially after processing regulations got more stringent post-2015 .
timesofindia.indiatimes.com/business/india-business/more-scrutiny-but-more-h-1b-visas-okd/articleshow/71572241.cms

Temporary relief to Indians in US! Work ban on H-1B visa holders' spouses pushed back till 2020
A 2015 rule issued by Barack Obama allowed work permits for certain categories of H-4 visa holders (dependent family members - spouse and children - of the H-1B visa holders), who otherwise could not be employed
September 19, 2019

Backlash against Modi as Indian PM 'endorses Trump for 2020 in breach of diplomatic convention'
Speaking in Texas, Modi repeated to rapturous applause the borrowed Trump campaign slogan: ‘Abki baar Trump sarkar (This time, [a] Trump government)’
September 23, 2019

Trump nominates Indian American to replace Kavanaugh
WASHINGTON (AP) — President Donald Trump is nominating administration official Neomi Rao to fill the appeals court seat previously held by Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh.
Trump’s announcement came on Nov. 13 during the White House’s celebration of Diwali, the Hindu festival of light. Rao, who is Indian American, was present at the event.
Trump said he was nominating Rao for the U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit — sometimes referred to as the nation’s second-highest court. Rao currently serves as the administrator of the Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs (OIRA), which is part of the Office of Management and Budget.



The Times also reported that Grenell — who was only officially tapped into the role on Thursday and who says he will not be the nominee for the full-time role — also made a slew of his own new hires on Friday, including an expert on Trump conspiracy theories.
One hire is Kashyap Patel, a senior member of the National Security Council and former top aide to Rep. Devin Nunes (R-Calif.), the former House Intelligence Committee chairman.

https://imagevars.gulfnews.com/2019/11/22/Kashyap-Patel-20192211_16e942e7986_medium.jpg
Kashyap Patel has reportedly been given permission to "clean house" at the agency.

[enhanced_deficit]

On a potentially related note, this is some dedication if it is not fakenews:


Indian man who fasted for four days ‘to pray for Trump’s coronavirus recovery’ dies of cardiac arrest

Mon, October 12, 2020

https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/ypuaKuwlsp9tS5u1NspFUQ--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTk2MDtoPTcyMA--/https://s.yimg.com/uu/api/res/1.2/zxxc4OjsQl9Q6vJ2LRcmpA--~B/aD0xNTM2O3c9MjA0ODthcHBpZD15dGFjaHlvbg--/https://media.zenfs.com/en/the_independent_635/080234b7fdbea14c55e35d78d186d5f4

Trump has a keen following in India, particularly among supporters of prime minister Narendra Modi (Getty)A 38-year-old man from the Indian state of Telangana (https://www.independent.co.uk/topic/telangana) has died after fasting for four days to pray for Donald Trump’s recovery from Covid-19.

According to his family, Bussa Krishna Raju worshipped the US president like a god, and was shocked and disturbed to find out about his coronavirus diagnosis.

Mr Raju refused food and started praying for Mr Trump’s recovery when he found out about his infection last week. Mr Trump tested positive on Thursday 1 October, and was treated at the Walter Reed Medical Center for several days.
Mr Raju’s family told the Times of India that he collapsed on Sunday while having tea at his relative’s residence in the village of Toopran in Medak district. He was taken to hospital where doctors declared him dead.
A close family member told the Times of India: "He was upset when he learnt about Trump testing positive for coronavirus. He spent sleepless nights, starved and prayed for the US president's recovery for the past three-four days. He died of cardiac arrest today around noon."

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/indian-man-fasted-four-days-112650576.html

[kahless]

On a potentially related note, this is some dedication if it is not fakenews:


Indian man who fasted for four days ‘to pray for Trump’s coronavirus recovery’ dies of cardiac arrest

Mon, October 12, 2020

https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/ypuaKuwlsp9tS5u1NspFUQ--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTk2MDtoPTcyMA--/https://s.yimg.com/uu/api/res/1.2/zxxc4OjsQl9Q6vJ2LRcmpA--~B/aD0xNTM2O3c9MjA0ODthcHBpZD15dGFjaHlvbg--/https://media.zenfs.com/en/the_independent_635/080234b7fdbea14c55e35d78d186d5f4

Trump has a keen following in India, particularly among supporters of prime minister Narendra Modi (Getty)A 38-year-old man from the Indian state of Telangana (https://www.independent.co.uk/topic/telangana) has died after fasting for four days to pray for Donald Trump’s recovery from Covid-19.

According to his family, Bussa Krishna Raju worshipped the US president like a god, and was shocked and disturbed to find out about his coronavirus diagnosis.

Mr Raju refused food and started praying for Mr Trump’s recovery when he found out about his infection last week. Mr Trump tested positive on Thursday 1 October, and was treated at the Walter Reed Medical Center for several days.
Mr Raju’s family told the Times of India that he collapsed on Sunday while having tea at his relative’s residence in the village of Toopran in Medak district. He was taken to hospital where doctors declared him dead.
A close family member told the Times of India: "He was upset when he learnt about Trump testing positive for coronavirus. He spent sleepless nights, starved and prayed for the US president's recovery for the past three-four days. He died of cardiac arrest today around noon."

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/indian-man-fasted-four-days-112650576.html

Why even post that in this thead?

[enhanced_deficit]

Why even post that in this thead?

Potentially related (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?510053-Why-the-H-1B-Visa-Racket-Should-Be-Abolished-Not-Reformed&p=6924706&viewfull=1#post6924706) to this topic.

[Swordsmyth]

Why even post that in this thead?

Because he is an insane troll.

Here is an actually relevant post:

The Trump administration announced plans Tuesday to sharply limit visas for skilled workers from overseas, a move officials said was a priority amid job losses caused by the coronavirus pandemic.

Department of Homeland Security and Department of Labor officials said new rules for what’s known as the H1-B program will restrict who can obtain a work visa and will impose additional salary requirements on companies seeking to hire foreign workers.

Acting Deputy DHS Secretary Ken Cuccinelli said about one-third of the people who have applied for H1-B visas in recent years would be denied under the new rules, which also will include limits on the number of specialty occupations available under the program.

President Donald Trump in June issued an order temporarily suspending the H-1B program until the end of the year.

The new rules reflect a broader effort by his administration to curb both legal and illegal immigration, an issue important to Trump’s base even if it’s less prominent in his campaign this year than in 2016.

A new requirement that employers pay higher prevailing wages to foreign workers will take effect in the coming days, reflecting the need to help the job market recover from the coronavirus shutdown, said Deputy Secretary of Labor Patrick Pizzella.

“With millions of Americans looking for work, as the economy continues its recovery, immediate action is needed to guard against the risk lower-cost foreign labor can pose to the well-being of U.S. workers,” Pizzella said.

More at: https://www.borderreport.com/news/po...-worker-visas/ (https://www.borderreport.com/news/politics/trump-administration-to-sharply-limit-skilled-worker-visas/)

[enhanced_deficit]

March 31, 2021
Biden to let Trump's H-1B visa ban expire in a win for ...
latimes.com/politics/story/2021-03-31/biden-to-let-h1-b-visa-ban-expire
President Biden opted not to renew the ban on H-1B visas, which are used by technology companies to hire foreign coders and engineers. It was imposed last June.





April 30, 2021
Biden bans travel from India amid COVID surge (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?553734-Biden-bans-travel-from-India-amid-COVID-surge&)

[enhanced_deficit]

Biden admin appears to be charting a different course compared to last maga administration:

Biden’s promised expansion of H1B visas rife with challenges
Observer Research Foundation

US issues more H-1B visas in 2021
Aug 25, 2021

Approval rates for H-1B visas in the quarter to June and in the first three quarters of the US financial year were 98.1% and 97% respectively, compared to about 84% in 2018 and 2019 during the previous Donald Trump administration.

outlookindia.com/website/story/world-news-us-lawmakers-seek-permanent-residence-for-h1b-visa-holders-to-help-indians/393286

US Lawmakers Seek Permanent Residence For H1B Visa Holders
01 September 2021


Under the current system, individuals from countries with large populations -- such as India and China -- face decades-long wait times to achieve lawful permanent resident status.

In a move that will help a significant number of Indians, a group of US lawmakers have sought path to permanent residence for people in the employment-based green card backlog, most of whom are H-1B visa holders.
A group of 40 US lawmakers led by Indian-American Raja Krishnamoorthi have written a letter to Speaker of House Nancy Pelosi and Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer seeking a path to meet this.

There are reportedly 1.2 million people in the employment-based green card backlog. A significant majority of them are from India.
Under the current system, no more than seven percent of employment-based green cards are available to individuals from a single country. As a result, individuals from countries with large populations -- such as India and China -- face decades-long wait times to achieve lawful permanent resident status.


US Chambers seeks to double H-1B quota
Jun 24, 2021


The powerful US Chambers of Commerce has launched a massive campaign to address the acute shortage of skilled and professional workforce in America, prominent among which includes urging the Biden administration and Congress to double the number of H-1B visas and eliminate per-country quota for the Green Card.
The most sought-after H-1B visa is a non-immigrant visa that allows US companies to employ foreign workers in speciality occupations that require theoretical or technical expertise. Technology companies depend on it to hire tens of thousands of employees each year from countries like India and China.




Related

India may urge Joe Biden administration to revoke new rules on H1B visas
Jan 17, 2021
BusinessLine

Indian PM 'endorses Trump for 2020 in breach of diplomatic convention'
https://images.axios.com/i6PtVVmYSg2MvboBk3W_kuqDDJ0=/0x0:4854x2730/1920x1080/2019/09/22/1569196043083.jpg
Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi and President Donald Trump attend the "Howdy, Modi!" rally at NRG Stadium in Houston Sunday. Photo: Saul Loeb/AFP/Getty Images


US approves more H-1B visas this year
Oct 14, 2019



US has approved a higher number of H-1B applications this year
3.89 lakh applications were approved for the fiscal 2019, up from last year's 3.35 lakh
In past years, more than 70% of the aggregate H-1B visa applications for new jobs and visa extensions given to those born in India




Biden's request for $6.4 billion in funding to resettle Afghan refugee sparks conservative fears of 'unlimited green cards' (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?510053-Why-the-H-1B-Visa-Racket-Should-Be-Abolished-Not-Reformed&p=7058563&viewfull=1#post7058563)


Biden administration's request would allow green cards for Afghans who arrived as late as Sept. 2022

Sep 10, 2021
The Biden administration this week made a request for $6.4 billion in funding for Afghan refugee resettlement and language that would allow for the tens of thousands of Afghans being brought in to quickly apply for permanent U.S. residency -- sparking conservative fears of "unlimited green cards" for those arriving into late 2022.
The language was included in a request for a continuing resolution (CR) to allow for lawmakers to pass a budget for fiscal year 2022, which also includes a $14 billion request for disaster relief.

foxnews.com/politics/bidens-afghan-refugee-request-conservative-fears-unlimited-green-cards




Some of them are useful idiots but others may be in the pay of the "Integrity Initiative":

Major Psy-Op In Europe Exposed: UK Government Tramples On Values It Vowed To Protect


Covert British Military-Smear Machine Moving Into US


Be interesting to see how these stories impact things being dsicussed in this thread.

[Invisible Man]

While we're at it, let's abolish all visas.

[enhanced_deficit]

That might be too extreme.


In other news:

Sep 17, 2021

Judge Kills The Last Trump H-1B Visa Rule Left Standing


Stuart AndersonSenior Contributor
Leadership Strategy
I write about globalization, business, technology and immigration.

Senior Advisor to the President for Policy Stephen Miller talks to reporters about immigration at ... [+]

Getty Images A federal judge has ended a Trump administration regulation designed to make it difficult for international students to gain H-1B status. The ruling is the latest judicial decision to stop a Trump administration H-1B rule, leaving in tatters the legacy pursued by Trump aide Stephen Miller and others.
Between 2017 and 2021, Trump administration officials increased H-1B denial rates by issuing memos and policies that judges determined to be unlawful. Once those policies ended, H-1B denial rates returned to pre-Trump levels, according to a National Foundation for American Policy analysis. Today, the most significant H-1B restriction is the same one in place before Donald Trump took office—the 85,000 annual limit on new H-1B petitions for companies.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/stuartanderson/2021/09/17/judge-kills-the-last-trump-h-1b-visa-rule-left-standing/

[enhanced_deficit]

That's amazing display of political skills by Tulsi Gabbard supported so called 'hanging chad' of Netanyahu (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?528087-Tulsi-Gabbard-is-a-member-of-CFR&p=7061704&viewfull=1#post7061704) who was banned from entering US just few years ago over genocide charges:


2020:

Indian PM 'endorses Trump for 2020 in breach of diplomatic convention'

https://images.axios.com/i6PtVVmYSg2MvboBk3W_kuqDDJ0=/0x0:4854x2730/1920x1080/2019/09/22/1569196043083.jpg
Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi and President Donald Trump attend the "Howdy, Modi!" rally at NRG Stadium in Houston Sunday.



2021:

Indian PM Modi raises issue of H-1B visas with President Biden: Foreign Secretary Shringla

Sep 25, 2021

The technology companies depend on it to hire tens of thousands of employees each year from countries like India and China
https://s3.ap-southeast-1.amazonaws.com/images.deccanchronicle.com/dc-Cover-jctk0ru3a1b4me4pmt881kvud2-20210925064237.Medi.jpeg
Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi with US President Joe Biden meets in the Oval Office of the White House, Friday, Sept. 24, 2021, in Washington.

Washington: Prime Minister Narendra Modi in his first-ever in-person meeting with President Joe Biden raised a number of issues involving the Indian community in America, including access for Indian professionals in the US and speaking about the H-1B visas, Foreign Secretary Harsh Vardhan Shringla has said.
A fact sheet issued by the White House later said that the United States was proud to have issued a record 62,000 visas to Indian students so far in 2021.
USAID looks forward to working with the Indian government on establishing the US-India Gandhi-King Development Foundation to promote initiatives and exchanges that honor both visionary leaders, it added.