The Return of Sound Money [Archive] - Ron Paul Forums / Liberty Forest

helmuth_hubener

04-18-2017, 01:27 PM

How do you know it really exists in a vault.? Still another middle man.

Electric ducats are not "sound money." IMHO. A bird in the hand beats two in the bush.

Guys, I don't have any disagreement with you. You are right, so far as in what you're talking about. Storage security is a complex issue. If you feel more comfortable about the risks of keeping gold in your house than the risks of keeping it in someone else's vault, then that is by all means the better option for you as far as secure gold storage.

At the same time, I do hope you'll try to understand what Midas is.

What I've created is something different.

You can already buy and hoard gold. That's not anything new. What Midas is for is if you want to be able to use your gold as money.

What the Midas Liquid Gold Card lets you do is spend your gold. At any merchant that accepts Visa.

That's all! Nothing much. :) It just lets you use gold as money.

If you do not want to use gold as money, then it isn't really solving any problem for you, right? And so is probably not for you.

Thank you very much for taking a look at it and for your feedback!

presence

04-18-2017, 02:44 PM

I would be OK with accepting bitcoin to fund the card.

What spot rate?
What fees?
Min / Max transfer size?
How long before the balance appears?

helmuth_hubener

04-18-2017, 03:19 PM

What spot rate?
Google's. https://www.google.com/search?q=bitcoin+spot+rate

What fees? No fee.

Min / Max transfer size? For the beta test, let's make it max $500 (so about 4/10 of a bitcoin). No minimum.

How long before the balance appears?Well, first we'd have to set you up with an account and get a card. In this beta-testing mode, that will take a while.

Once you're set up, though, it will appear as soon as we receive the funds. So, in the case of a bitcoin funding, probably within a couple hours. Certainly within a business day.

helmuth_hubener

04-19-2017, 11:52 AM

OK, well, any other interest?

PierzStyx

04-19-2017, 12:39 PM

Electric ducats are not "sound money." IMHO. A bird in the hand beats two in the bush.

Yeah, the whole point is what you end up holding, not the process you go through to get there. If I'm left holding dollars in the end, there isn't much of a point. And if teh system crashes someone else holding my gold doesn't help me at all.

helmuth_hubener

04-19-2017, 12:42 PM

Yeah, the whole point is what you end up holding, not the process you go through to get there. If I'm left holding dollars in the end, there isn't much of a point.

Thank you, Pierz. I see now I have a LOOONG way to go before I can be said to have explained how Midas works in a easy-to-understand way.

Because, with Midas, you are not holding dollars. You are holding gold.

helmuth_hubener

04-19-2017, 12:54 PM

OK, here's another way to understand it:

Let's say you are a customer of a bank or credit union (You probably are! So not too much imagination required.). Your bank helps you handle your financial affairs more easily. You have an account, and you have a debit card linked to that account with which you can make purchases.

Wouldn't it be nice if that bank was run under the principle of 100% reserve? Rather than making fraudulent loans and thus creating money out of thin air? I think most of us would agree that it would be. That would be a big improvement. If there were a bank that switched over to being run like that, boy oh boy, wouldn't that be great?

Now, what if this 100% reserve bank then decided that keeping 100% reserve in terms of dollars was not good enough? It goes one step further and becomes a 100% gold reserve bank. All accounts are backed 100% by gold. Backed by, denominated in, and convertible to. Wow, that would be even better!

Ahh well, that's a beautiful dream, but only a dream. Right?

Except.... now it's not. Now it's real. It's built.

helmuth_hubener

04-19-2017, 06:26 PM

angelatc, Brian4Liberty, undergroundrr, dannno, Danke, jmdrake, anybody seen this thread?

I think I needed a better thread title.

Danke

04-19-2017, 06:45 PM

@angelatc (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/member.php?u=198), @Brian4Liberty (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/member.php?u=1874), @undergroundrr (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/member.php?u=2785), @dannno (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/member.php?u=10908), @Danke (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/member.php?u=6186), @jmdrake (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/member.php?u=849), anybody seen this thread?

I think I needed a better thread title.

I will look into it, but the link says I am not invited. "private beta testing "

oyarde

04-19-2017, 06:57 PM

angelatc, Brian4Liberty, undergroundrr, dannno, Danke, jmdrake, anybody seen this thread?

I think I needed a better thread title.
Thread title is good , but I would go with Return to Sound Money / Gold backed card . Something like that .

Danke

04-19-2017, 07:01 PM

Thread title is good , but I would go with Return to Sound Money / Gold backed card . Something like that .

How about trading for beads?

oyarde

04-19-2017, 07:07 PM

How about trading for beads?

High quality bead days are over . The white socialists invaded the country like locusts . Being too lazy to make nice beads for themselves they outsourced it to chinese kids . Nobody wants those . I usually just go with something simple like Bobcat claws or teeth these days .

Danke

04-19-2017, 07:13 PM

High quality bead days are over . The white socialists invaded the country like locusts . Being too lazy to make nice beads for themselves they outsourced it to chinese kids . Nobody wants those . I usually just go with something simple like Bobcat claws or teeth these days .

How many Bobcat claws or teeth do I need for a young squaw?

helmuth_hubener

04-19-2017, 09:34 PM

I will look into it, but the link says I am not invited. "private beta testing " THIS is your invitation, Danke! You're all invited! Everyone's invited! Midas is my site.

I haven't had time yet to make a nice sign-up form and process. So, we're just doing it via PM.

oyarde

04-19-2017, 09:49 PM

How many Bobcat claws or teeth do I need for a young squaw?

It is about time you settled down and made some babies . Some new recruits for my militia .

angelatc

04-20-2017, 09:38 AM

How is this different than e-gold?

helmuth_hubener

04-20-2017, 10:39 AM

How is this different than e-gold?

e-gold:

* You could pay anyone with an e-gold account

Midas:

* You can pay anyone who accepts Visa

The Liquid Gold Card is an actual, physical payment card I send you in the mail, which you can use just like any other payment card, and which is 100% backed by gold.

e-gold:

* Combination of factors (anonymous, spends were irrevocable) made it very attractive to criminals. Crime, gambling, and pyramid/MLM scams were the top three principle clientele of e-gold. Sad but true. Libertarian enthusiasts were a distant fourth. This brought them, inevitably, to the disapproving attention of the authorities.

Midas:

* Midas is not anonymous, spends are revocable, and it has no feature that would serve any purpose for a criminal, nor for illegal gambling, nor for pyramid/MLM scams. Not one. It holds no attractiveness nor value for such applications. We want only honest, high-quality people on the platform.

We are doing everything by the book and are strongly focused on avoiding any legal problems. Protecting our customers and keeping you safe is Priority #1 and no other priority even comes close.

helmuth_hubener

04-20-2017, 10:47 AM

Great question, BTW, angelatc! Thank you!

helmuth_hubener

04-20-2017, 10:48 AM

How many Bobcat claws or teeth do I need for a young squaw?
Just make that ball land on red and you'll be able to buy plenty!

PierzStyx

04-20-2017, 12:25 PM

Thank you, Pierz. I see now I have a LOOONG way to go before I can be said to have explained how Midas works in a easy-to-understand way.

Because, with Midas, you are not holding dollars. You are holding gold.

Well, it seems like you, or whoever runs the vault, is the one holding the gold. Not me. I get what you're saying about how it works. And it isn't like But the issue is that the whole point of holding gold is that I hold it, in my hand. Or at least I have easy access to it.

And it still sounds like I'm left using dollars. You take my gold, convert it to dollars, that gets spent. I get what I bought, the company gets gold converted dollars (digital or physical), you get gold with whatever amount you take as user fees and such. That isn't a bad plan as far as economic go, except the dollar is controlled by madmen who are destroying it. That problem and its related problems of devaluation don't go away.

And no, I don't hate you. I hate some of the ideas you've espoused. But that is not the same as hating the person.

helmuth_hubener

04-20-2017, 12:56 PM

Well, it seems like you, or whoever runs the vault, is the one holding the gold. Not me. True, physically. But legally, you are the owner.

I get what you're saying about how it works. Excellent!

And it isn't like ....???

But the issue is that the whole point of holding gold is that I hold it, in my hand. The whole point? That is the only benefit of gold, to you? Because you can hold dollar bills in your hand too; they satisfy that standard.

If you (a) want to use gold as money, and (b) you absolutely demand to hold it in your hand at all times, if that is your standard, then you have created a Catch-22 for yourself. You will need to first convince everyone with whom you wish to do business to accept gold. That is not practical. So, you're stuck with no solution.

I broke open the Catch-22.

Or at least I have easy access to it. Well, "easy" is relative. If you can ask for redemption in gold at any time and within a week your gold arrives in the mail, would that be easy enough? I think for many, it will be. For you, I don't know. Maybe so, maybe not.

And it still sounds like I'm left using dollars. You take my gold, convert it to dollars, that gets spent. Have you heard of the concept of "Just In Time (JIT)"? It's a manufacturing and logistics concept. That's what this is. Your gold stays your gold until the last possible second. Only when you swipe the card does your gold get sold. At that moment. Why is it sold at all? Because the person you're paying wants dollars. Sorry, but he does. That's the way it is right now. That could change, and Midas is a bridge to that future, but first we have to deal with this side of the shore, as it really is, in order to build our way to the other.

So, you are on the gold standard: you own and use gold, because you have been educated by Ron Paul and Rothbard and others and prefer the benefits of gold (inflation-proof). And at the same time, you can conduct business with everyone else, even though they are still stuck on the dollar standard.

the dollar is controlled by madmen who are destroying it. That problem and its related problems of devaluation don't go away. It does for you.

Your account is in gold. You keep gold. Your savings is in gold. You stick everyone else with dollars. McDonalds gets dollars. Home Depot gets dollars. Your barber gets dollars. They still are vulnerable to the madmen and their devaluation. You aren't.

you get gold with whatever amount you take as user fees and such You should actually go to the page and read the intro. I think you'll find my fees very reasonable. :)

https://Midas.gold/intro

Thank you for the conversation, and keep it coming!

Jamesiv1

04-27-2017, 11:59 AM

Why would I want to spend away my gold?

except so I can say "I'm using gold for money. woohoo!!"

I always looked at gold as a SHTF thing.

besides, whoever has the gold makes the rules.

helmuth_hubener

04-27-2017, 12:48 PM

Why would I want to spend away my gold? The more interesting question is: why would you want to hold any dollars?

Jamesiv1

04-27-2017, 01:16 PM

The more interesting question is: why would you want to hold any dollars?
Why wouldn't I want to?

Seems semantic.....

When the bottom falls out, I would rather have more gold, less dollars. Wouldn't you?

The Proservative

04-27-2017, 01:43 PM

Bravo for trying something different, bringing something to the market to help increase the usage of gold and sound money. You're going to need to make some updates to your website, post some legal terms of your policies, some company information, and explain how VISA has authorized you to use their payment network (and what you will do when VISA decides to revoke that authorization), before most people trust you with storing their gold for you. For many, gold is the safest form of currency, to be depended on when all other fiat currency fails. Adding more points of failure, your company, your website, VISA's allowing you to continue to use their network for processing, to the use of gold as currency most likely goes against the very reason people buy and use gold in the first place.

I sincerely wish you the best though, and thank you for joining our fight to make gold and silver legal tender.

helmuth_hubener

05-01-2017, 09:29 AM

When the bottom falls out, I would rather have more gold, less dollars. Wouldn't you?

Exactly.

With a Midas account and a Liquid Gold card, you can run your life on gold. You can have your main financial account in gold. Then you only convert to dollars at the last possible moment, and you convert the bare minimum of exactly what you need to pay that particular bill.

Here's another cool way of looking at it. The Liquid Gold card is like having your own personal currency exchanger there with you at every check-out line. You hand him the gold coins. He accepts them in his left hand, and with his right he passes the cashier the correct amount of US bills and coins. All of a sudden, for you, gold is accepted everywhere!

helmuth_hubener

05-01-2017, 09:37 AM

Bravo for trying something different, bringing something to the market to help increase the usage of gold and sound money. Thank you very sincerely! Would you be interested in being a beta-tester to help make sure all the bugs are worked out? And also to offer all your suggestions? I could really use the help! Or any help! Even your post here in this thread was helpful, and I thank you.

You're going to need to make some updates to your website Any thoughts on what direction you would take it? Make it more a clone of a typical bank site? Which current parts are the worst?

post... what you will do when VISA decides to revoke that authorization That almost certainly will not happen. We have done everything in an approved, above-the-board way. However, we have also done it in a very smart and risk-adverse way, so we are totally prepared if this were to occur. We would inform everyone and simply send everyone back their funds. No big problem. Inconvenient, but no customer loses any money.

helmuth_hubener

05-02-2017, 07:55 PM

Ender, GunnyFreedom, acptulsa? Thoughts?

Dr.No.

05-02-2017, 09:31 PM

How can you fund the card?

helmuth_hubener

05-02-2017, 09:43 PM

How can you fund the card?
You mail a check. ACH and automatic deposit will also be options.

Jamesiv1

05-03-2017, 03:46 AM

Exactly.

With a Midas account and a Liquid Gold card, you can run your life on gold. You can have your main financial account in gold. Then you only convert to dollars at the last possible moment, and you convert the bare minimum of exactly what you need to pay that particular bill.

Here's another cool way of looking at it. The Liquid Gold card is like having your own personal currency exchanger there with you at every check-out line. You hand him the gold coins. He accepts them in his left hand, and with his right he passes the cashier the correct amount of US bills and coins. All of a sudden, for you, gold is accepted everywhere!
What you are selling is the idea of "I'm running my life on gold. woohoo!!"

There is no financial incentive that I can see. Why would I want to bother?

The sh!t has not yet hit the fan, so why would I want to spend my gold, rather than hoard my gold?

Is this not just a clever way for *you* to get *my* gold? :)

helmuth_hubener

05-03-2017, 08:31 AM

What you are selling is the idea of "I'm running my life on gold." Well, actually not the idea but the reality.

There is no financial incentive that I can see. Why would I want to bother? You divest yourself of dollars, and instead you own gold. Your checking account is in gold.

Is there an advantage to that? Well, it depends on what you think about gold. If you are pro-gold, if you are a big gold fan, you would probably say "Yes, sir!" If you are not, then you may be more happy instead with holding fiat dollars.

Is this not just a clever way for *you* to get *my* gold? No. :mad: That is a serious accusation.

And it is one that needs to be addressed. I am an RIA -- a Registered Investment Adviser. I am registered with the federal SEC. I have my real name and contact info on the page. You can look me up in the SEC database. I live in the United States. I have intentionally made myself eminently sue-able. I am not insulated from my customers' wrath at all. If I do anything wrong, if you have the slightest delay in receiving your funds, all you need to do is call up the SEC and they will be on it.

I believe in good financial governance, that is, having structures and procedures built in to make it maximally difficult, improbable, and indeed impossible for anyone to do anything untoward. When this project gets traction and takes off, good third-party audits for example will certainly be part of the safety regimen. The principle is: don't trust; just verify. Then verify again.

helmuth_hubener

05-03-2017, 10:23 AM

TheNewYorker, Warrior_of_Freedom, osan, bunklocoempire? Suggestions?

wizardwatson

05-03-2017, 11:10 AM

Can you at least keep the gold in the US? Your site isn't very long on transparency and where the gold actually is.

Here's a good read about implementing gold and silver currencies from the Cato Journal.

Gold and Silver as Constitutional
Alternative Currencies
Edwin Vieira Jr
https://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/serials/files/cato-journal/2015/5/cj-v35n2-3.pdf

Talks a little bit about how we could actually store and protect the gold we're banking with if ever implemented.

But you can see from your responses, people don't really get the difference between gold-backed reserve banking and the practice of burying stuff in a hole in their yard. They are obtuse it appears, simply from their ignorance of the necessity of banking services in general. 'muh gold!!!

Also, what's the April 19th significance for you?

r3volution 3.0

05-03-2017, 11:58 AM

There is no financial incentive that I can see. Why would I want to bother?

Yea, I've never really understood the appeal of this kind of service (either for PMs or crypocurrencies).

Say I earn and spend $5000 monthly, with the funds usually deposited into a checking account on Day 1 of the month.

A service such as the OP's protects that $5000 (less as the month goes on, as I spend it) from inflation, but that's it.

Unless one is carrying abnormally large cash balances for some reason, it's a pretty minor benefit.

...potentially more than offset by fees, forgone interest, and variation in the gold price.

If we were in the midst of a hyperinflationary episode, with money noticeably losing value on a daily basis, this might make sense.

Till then, I don't really see the point.

wizardwatson

05-03-2017, 12:45 PM

Yea, I've never really understood the appeal of this kind of service (either for PMs or crypocurrencies).

Say I earn and spend $5000 monthly, with the funds usually deposited into a checking account on Day 1 of the month.

A service such as the OP's protects that $5000 (less as the month goes on, as I spend it) from inflation, but that's it.

Unless one is carrying abnormally large cash balances for some reason, it's a pretty minor benefit.

...potentially more than offset by fees, forgone interest, and variation in the gold price.

If we were in the midst of a hyperinflationary episode, with money noticeably losing value on a daily basis, this might make sense.

Till then, I don't really see the point.

Is John trying to sell you his wares outside a Walmart after you stopped by to pick up some milk?

No, this is a real-world sound money banking initiative under discussion in a grassroots activist subforum named after the man most associated with sound money.

Of course sound money isn't going to have an immediate financial benefit for you. It's going to be extra work, a lot of extra work for whoever tries to get it off the ground. Perhaps even dangerous. Maybe you could leave your name, and when he's giving people free movie tickets for signing up, he'll shoot you an email. :rolleyes:

...

See, helmuth. Not to pick on our misnomer-ed friend r3volution 3.0, but it's a perfect example of what Rothbard talked about in Ethics concerning people more attracted to the idea of liberty than the goals:

"It might be thought that the libertarian, the person committed to the "natural system of liberty" (in Adam Smith's phrase), almost by definition hold the goal of liberty as his highest political end. But this is often not true; for many libertarians, the desire for self-expression, or for bearing witness to the truth of the excellence of liberty, frequently takes precedence over the goal of the triumph of liberty in the real world." - Murray Rothbard

Now, again, maybe this isn't who Rev3 "really is", you know... "deep down" or whatever, but the sentiments he expresses are spot on for the comparison. And I always like to give people the benefit of the doubt and assume both that they mean well generally (until they make it otherwise clear) and that they generally aren't aware of their spreading of rationalizations for inaction, and overall divisiveness.

I'm sure you've noticed the gatekeeper effect before. I've not focused on your posts, but you've been around long enough I have a general impression of your post quality.

The do-nothing armchair intellectuals are really the primary blocking factors to any grass-roots activity. You can always count on them to be there at your moment of glory to tell you "I don't see the point."

So I'm going to stick around on your thread. I've subscribed and what-not so I'll do my part to thwart the gatekeepers. You've actually done something, and you're aware I have as well, and neither of us are anonymous. So that's something to build on.

I'm very much interested in sound money strategy, and we've both put a lot of effort into it, so perhaps if nothing else, we can learn something and cause others to learn something.

Still waiting to hear about April 19th. Also, very curious that you are the first "sound money" project I've seen from a member here in the 10 years this site has existed. Thought I would be the first, but you beat me by 2 days. Kinda spooky. :)

r3volution 3.0

05-03-2017, 12:51 PM

Is John trying to sell you his wares outside a Walmart after you stopped by to pick up some milk?

No, this is a real-world sound money banking initiative under discussion in a grassroots activist subforum named after the man most associated with sound money.

Of course sound money isn't going to have an immediate financial benefit for you. It's going to be extra work, a lot of extra work for whoever tries to get it off the ground. Perhaps even dangerous. Maybe you could leave your name, and when he's giving people free movie tickets for signing up, he'll shoot you an email. :rolleyes:

What in my characterization of the OP's proposal is incorrect?

wizardwatson

05-03-2017, 12:54 PM

What in my characterization of the OP's proposal is incorrect?

Your implication that in order for his proposal to be valid, it must have some financial benefit for the user. It is a complete tossing aside of the context of his project.

He is framing is at a sound money implementation, and you are framing it as an investment you don't want to invest in.

wizardwatson

05-03-2017, 12:57 PM

r3volution 3.0

05-03-2017, 01:00 PM

Your implication that in order for his proposal to be valid, it must have some financial benefit for the user. It is a complete tossing aside of the context of his project.

Yes, I was assuming the purpose of the service was to provide some benefit to the people using it.

He is framing is at a sound money implementation, and you are framing it as an investment you don't want to invest in.

If you mean that this platform is expected to somehow bring about the end of the current monetary system (bring society at large onto the gold standard, rather than just the platform's users), that's unrealistic, especially if the only incentive to adopt the platform in the first place is altruism (i.e. if it provides no immediate benefit to its users).

The broader point I would make is that none of these agorist-type strategies are going to work.

They're based in a misunderstanding of the nature of state power.

wizardwatson

05-03-2017, 01:22 PM

Yes, I was assuming the purpose of the service was to provide some benefit to the people using it.

Well, now you say "assumed..benefit" but before you wrote "financial benefit". I can't yet read the minds of anonymous agents which may or may not be one or more humans, so I'm forced to make judgements based on what those agents actually post.

If you mean that this platform is expected to somehow bring about the end of the current monetary system (bring society at large onto the gold standard, rather than just the platform's users), that's unrealistic, especially if the only incentive to adopt the platform in the first place is altruism (i.e. if it provides no immediate benefit to its users).

The broader point I would make is that none of these agorist-type strategies are going to work.

They're based in a misunderstanding of the nature of state power.

Is not the goal to End the Fed? If you say "especially if.." doesn't that imply some strategies will work better than others?

But I'm actually more interested in the broader point you make. Isn't 100% reserve community banking the most ideal candidate for an agorist approach?

Start a community bank, market why the community is better off with it, grow it into the next community. Rinse. Repeat.

What is it that you imply is not understood about state power? If this state power truly wishes to crush any competition, but operates in the shadows, then it seems to me a viable sound money system that starts catching on is a good strategy to flush them out and force them to act.

On what front do you suggest we confront the tyrannical state power? The electoral process? That's even more hopeless. As an agent of change I'd say Bitcoin has been far more influential than Trump, some crypto supporters would probably say more than Ron Paul.

I myself am convinced that taking the money power from the hands of a few and making it accessible and controlled an enlightened public is the most suitable course of action. It goes to the root of the problem. What other strategy gets to the root problems as completely?

osan

05-03-2017, 02:25 PM

@TheNewYorker (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/member.php?u=6690), @Warrior_of_Freedom (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/member.php?u=14128), @osan (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/member.php?u=25257), @bunklocoempire (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/member.php?u=5040)? Suggestions?

For what? I thought I'd posted here, but I can't find it.

r3volution 3.0

05-03-2017, 03:08 PM

Is not the goal to End the Fed?

That's one important goal, sure, but how does this help accomplish that?

If you say "especially if.." doesn't that imply some strategies will work better than others?

It means just it what it says.

A parallel monetary system is not likely to succeed; even less so if it can't deliver concrete benefits to the people expected to adopt it.

But I'm actually more interested in the broader point you make. Isn't 100% reserve community banking the most ideal candidate for an agorist approach?

Start a community bank, market why the community is better off with it, grow it into the next community. Rinse. Repeat.

No, I don't see that working, for much the same reasons as the OP's platform.

FRB is popular (and full reserve banking basically non-existent) because people would rather earn interest than pay fees on their demand deposits.

What is it that you imply is not understood about state power?

That it can use violence to stifle any of these market-based initiatives.

On what front do you suggest we confront the tyrannical state power? The electoral process? That's even more hopeless.

Electoral politics is hopeless in the long run, though worthwhile as a delaying tactic. I favor education, not of the masses (truly hopeless) but of a libertarian elite: create a libertarian Eton, as I noted recently in another thread. Stage our own long march through the institutions. And this is entirely doable, just requires money.

As an agent of change I'd say Bitcoin has been far more influential than Trump, some crypto supporters would probably say more than Ron Paul.

I don't see that BTC has had any effect at all in terms of reducing state power.

I myself am convinced that taking the money power from the hands of a few and making it accessible and controlled an enlightened public is the most suitable course of action.

The problem is that none of these strategies involving BTC- or PM-based transaction systems is remotely capable of accomplishing that.

wizardwatson

05-03-2017, 03:19 PM

That's one important goal, sure, but how does this help accomplish that?

It means just it what it says.

A parallel monetary system is not likely to succeed; even less so if it can't deliver concrete benefits to the people expected to adopt it.

No, I don't see that working, for much the same reasons as the OP's platform.

FRB is popular (and full reserve banking basically non-existent) because people would rather earn interest that pay fees on their demand deposits.

That it can use violence to stifle any of these market-based initiatives.

Electoral politics is hopeless in the long run, though worthwhile as a delaying tactic. I favor education, not of the masses (truly hopeless) but of a libertarian elite: create a libertarian Eton, as I noted recently in another thread. Stage our own long march through the institutions. And this is entirely doable, just requires money.

I don't see that BTC has had any effect at all in terms of reducing state power.

The problem is that none of these strategies involving BTC- or PM-based transaction systems is remotely capable of accomplishing that.

Most people don't earn interest on their deposits.

And who said BTC "reduced state power"? I'm simply referencing that it created "change" in the educational sense, hence the Ron Paul comparison. Education, you say is your goal, no?

So a market-based approach on the monetary side of things, you think is unrealistic. But isn't education also a market-based approach?

In fact, I'd say it's exactly the same. "Educate a core group of people how to build this and that societal system." You admit monetary system is a component of that. In fact, I think Helmuth and I both have in mind to try these monetary systems out, "theoretically" here in this forum precisely because of its "elite libertarian" (emphasis on the quotations there) status.

So you have other components and strategic ideas, but the idea of libertarian smartie-farties is still the game plan, and really, if we're serious we're only discussing components and priorities.

Well, after you assemble your first batch of Avengers anyway.

Where do I sign up?

r3volution 3.0

05-03-2017, 03:38 PM

Most people don't earn interest on their deposits.

They earn more interest and/or pay lower fees than they would with full reserve banking; that's just in the nature of the two systems.

A bank which provides services to demand deposit holders, but doesn't loan out those deposits, has to make up their costs somewhere.

There's a reason that essentially every bank in the world holds fractional reserves.

And who said BTC "reduced state power"? I'm simply referencing that it created "change" in the educational sense, hence the Ron Paul comparison. Education, you say is your goal, no?

I haven't seen that effect.

So a market-based approach on the monetary side of things, you think is unrealistic. But isn't education also a market-based approach?

The distinction I'm making is between:

(a) taking control of the state

and (b) trying to become free while leaving the state in enemy hands

wizardwatson

05-03-2017, 04:21 PM

They earn more interest and/or pay lower fees than they would with full reserve banking; that's just in the nature of the two systems.

A bank which provides services to demand deposit holders, but doesn't loan out those deposits, has to make up their costs somewhere.

There's a reason that essentially every bank in the world holds fractional reserves.

I'm in the camp that thinks fractional reserve banking should just be illegal. It's counterfeiting. So yeah, of course it's popular because counterfeiting is lucractive business. Any society that is going to transition is going to have to be educated about why this particular brand of counterfeiting needs to be outlawed and is bad.

But we're still discussing why "it wouldn't work in the market". But what's stopping the libertarian elite from setting up the prototypes? If the end game for everyone is to cease and desist fractional reserve banking, shouldn't we be doing this now? Or ASAP? Cost would be minimal. No it wouldn't no less than zero but it wouldn't be much cost.

I haven't seen that effect.

Well, honestly, I haven't either, at least not to a degree that I would like. Bitcoin has definitely amplified the "Fractional Reserve Banking is bad" meme, but the communities attempts to pass bitcoin off as a viable alternative has had some negative effects in that department, to be frank. But it has raised hopes that alternatives are possible, and hope is certainly an important part of any group strategy.

The distinction I'm making is between:

(a) taking control of the state

and (b) trying to become free while leaving the state in enemy hands

Clearly, we have to kick the bums out. But the systems we would put in place, the rules and regulations, can be applied in the organization itself which intends to usurp the established organization, no? So again, what's the hold up?

Forget any agenda but yours. You say you only need money. What are you obstacles besides money? What is the structure of your organization?

For years, I haven't been convinced there are any real obstacles but the beaten spirits of regular men. I did have some technical unknowns for how to set up decentralized banking, but I resolved the remainder of those a few months ago.

But now I'm pretty much set on the idea that men simply have no faith, and live in fear. Because there isn't really anything we can't do with the freedoms we still possess here in the US. Of course when/if the US gets Venezuela-ed that may all change, but at the moment, we have ideal circumstances in the United States for peaceful revolution.

Problem is Americans have a slave mentality about escaping tyranny. So they make all sorts of excuses why they "can't do this and that".

Now admittedly, many of the old fogies here on this forum have an "on average" greater amount of spirit. But these days, right back into captured slave mentality. But I'm always excited to be proven wrong. Helmuth's idea might be wonky, he might be doing it for personal gain to some degree, but clearly there's an activist component. That gives me hope. Wish more people were doing stuff instead of wallowing in despair dressed up as indifference.

r3volution 3.0

05-03-2017, 04:37 PM

I'm in the camp that thinks fractional reserve banking should just be illegal. It's counterfeiting. So yeah, of course it's popular because counterfeiting is lucractive business. Any society that is going to transition is going to have to be educated about why this particular brand of counterfeiting needs to be outlawed and is bad.

FRB is not inherently fraudulent as Rothbard claimed. It's only fraudulent if the banks misrepresent themselves as holding full reserves.

The problem with our present banking system is the central bank, the FDIC, the SEC, etc - not the practice of FRB.

If the government were entirely removed from banking, you'd still have 99.999999% of banks practicing FRB - without causing any problems.

But we're still discussing why "it wouldn't work in the market". But what's stopping the libertarian elite from setting up the prototypes? If the end game for everyone is to cease and desist fractional reserve banking, shouldn't we be doing this now? Or ASAP? Cost would be minimal. No it wouldn't no less than zero but it wouldn't be much cost.

Ending FRB isn't the end game (see above).

Well, honestly, I haven't either, at least not to a degree that I would like. Bitcoin has definitely amplified the "Fractional Reserve Banking is bad" meme, but the communities attempts to pass bitcoin off as a viable alternative has had some negative effects in that department, to be frank. But it has raised hopes that alternatives are possible, and hope is certainly an important part of any group strategy.

If so, then that's a mark against BTC.

Forget any agenda but yours. You say you only need money. What are you obstacles besides money? What is the structure of your organization?

The long-term strategy is to create a libertarian elite to infiltrate all of the important institutions in society, just as the socialists did (long march). As a starting point, I'd set up a school which charges no tuition, offers the best of everything, and accepts only the tippy-tippy top of the bell curve. The graduates would go on to the top ranks of business, academia, the professions, media, and government - taking their ideals with them. Over time, as the alumni network grew, it would become a major funding source, to fund other, complimentary operations: think tanks to develop strategy, grants to capture other organizations, etc. Again, think about how "they" did it over the past century or so. There's no magic to it; just clear thinking, patience, and (alas, what we don't have) $$$.

wizardwatson

05-03-2017, 04:55 PM

FRB is not inherently fraudulent as Rothbard claimed. It's only fraudulent if the banks misrepresent themselves as holding full reserves.

The problem with our present banking system is the central bank, the FDIC, the SEC, etc - not the practice of FRB.

If the government were entirely removed from banking, you'd still have 99.999999% of banks practicing FRB - without causing any problems.

I disagree, but I've been wrong before. Even if we assume FRB isn't economically unsound, you have to admit it would be nearly impossible for 100% reserve banking to coexist. The money multiplier effect allows startups to easily inflate the local currency and buy up assets. It would be a competition between the reserve and non-reserve banks. And if they are on even intellectual footing as "acceptable" then 100% reserve banking is out because FRB can just use part of the money multiplier to bribe customers.

Anyway, FRB has got to go, in my opinion. It's economically unsound and prone to abuse, and there's nothing other than arbitrary rules that tell us what the reserve fraction should be. It's going to take more than "it was fine before centralization" to convince me. I would say it led to centralization.

...

To your "long term, clear thinking, patience" strategy. Just sounds like wishy-washy gradualism to me. You don't seem to have a problem with current systems, just want to be closer to the circle of power.

Just go join the masons, or the jesuits, or any of the other fancy fraternal orgs. Work your way up to black pope then dissolve the organization. Seems simpler than trying to start your own Xavier school for the gifted.

helmuth_hubener

05-03-2017, 04:57 PM

Can you at least keep the gold in the US? Your site isn't very long on transparency and where the gold actually is. That would certainly be possible. I see having it outside the United States as an advantage for Americans, as I believe having some money outside of the jurisdiction you live is a wise course. The gold is in Zurich, Switzerland, which is a particularly good jurisdiction for storing gold. But if there is demand for it, it would be relatively easy to add additional vault locations, including in the US.

Here's a good read about implementing gold and silver currencies from the Cato Journal. Cool, thanks. I'll have to check it out.

But you can see from your responses, people don't really get the difference between gold-backed reserve banking and the practice of burying stuff in a hole in their yard. They are obtuse it appears, simply from their ignorance of the necessity of banking services in general. 'muh gold!!! Yes, well, I am just happy for responses. Keep them coming, everyone!

helmuth_hubener

05-03-2017, 04:59 PM

Also, what's the April 19th significance for you?

Listen my children and you shall hear
Of the midnight ride of Paul Revere,
On the eighteenth of April, in Seventy-five;
Hardly a man is now alive
Who remembers that famous day and year.

He said to his friend, "If the British march
By land or sea from the town to-night,
Hang a lantern aloft in the belfry arch
Of the North Church tower as a signal light,--
One if by land, and two if by sea;
And I on the opposite shore will be,
Ready to ride and spread the alarm
Through every Middlesex village and farm,
For the country folk to be up and to arm."

Then he said "Good-night!" and with muffled oar
Silently rowed to the Charlestown shore,
Just as the moon rose over the bay,
Where swinging wide at her moorings lay
The Somerset, British man-of-war;
A phantom ship, with each mast and spar
Across the moon like a prison bar,
And a huge black hulk, that was magnified
By its own reflection in the tide.

Meanwhile, his friend through alley and street
Wanders and watches, with eager ears,
Till in the silence around him he hears
The muster of men at the barrack door,
The sound of arms, and the tramp of feet,
And the measured tread of the grenadiers,
Marching down to their boats on the shore.

Then he climbed the tower of the Old North Church,
By the wooden stairs, with stealthy tread,
To the belfry chamber overhead,
And startled the pigeons from their perch
On the sombre rafters, that round him made
Masses and moving shapes of shade,--
By the trembling ladder, steep and tall,
To the highest window in the wall,
Where he paused to listen and look down
A moment on the roofs of the town
And the moonlight flowing over all.

Beneath, in the churchyard, lay the dead,
In their night encampment on the hill,
Wrapped in silence so deep and still
That he could hear, like a sentinel's tread,
The watchful night-wind, as it went
Creeping along from tent to tent,
And seeming to whisper, "All is well!"
A moment only he feels the spell
Of the place and the hour, and the secret dread
Of the lonely belfry and the dead;
For suddenly all his thoughts are bent
On a shadowy something far away,
Where the river widens to meet the bay,--
A line of black that bends and floats
On the rising tide like a bridge of boats.

Meanwhile, impatient to mount and ride,
Booted and spurred, with a heavy stride
On the opposite shore walked Paul Revere.
Now he patted his horse's side,
Now he gazed at the landscape far and near,
Then, impetuous, stamped the earth,
And turned and tightened his saddle girth;
But mostly he watched with eager search
The belfry tower of the Old North Church,
As it rose above the graves on the hill,
Lonely and spectral and sombre and still.
And lo! as he looks, on the belfry's height
A glimmer, and then a gleam of light!
He springs to the saddle, the bridle he turns,
But lingers and gazes, till full on his sight
A second lamp in the belfry burns.

A hurry of hoofs in a village street,
A shape in the moonlight, a bulk in the dark,
And beneath, from the pebbles, in passing, a spark
Struck out by a steed flying fearless and fleet;
That was all! And yet, through the gloom and the light,
The fate of a nation was riding that night;
And the spark struck out by that steed, in his flight,
Kindled the land into flame with its heat.
He has left the village and mounted the steep,
And beneath him, tranquil and broad and deep,
Is the Mystic, meeting the ocean tides;
And under the alders that skirt its edge,
Now soft on the sand, now loud on the ledge,
Is heard the tramp of his steed as he rides.

It was twelve by the village clock
When he crossed the bridge into Medford town.
He heard the crowing of the cock,
And the barking of the farmer's dog,
And felt the damp of the river fog,
That rises after the sun goes down.

It was one by the village clock,
When he galloped into Lexington.
He saw the gilded weathercock
Swim in the moonlight as he passed,
And the meeting-house windows, black and bare,
Gaze at him with a spectral glare,
As if they already stood aghast
At the bloody work they would look upon.

It was two by the village clock,
When he came to the bridge in Concord town.
He heard the bleating of the flock,
And the twitter of birds among the trees,
And felt the breath of the morning breeze
Blowing over the meadow brown.
And one was safe and asleep in his bed
Who at the bridge would be first to fall,
Who that day would be lying dead,
Pierced by a British musket ball.

You know the rest. In the books you have read
How the British Regulars fired and fled,---
How the farmers gave them ball for ball,
>From behind each fence and farmyard wall,
Chasing the redcoats down the lane,
Then crossing the fields to emerge again
Under the trees at the turn of the road,
And only pausing to fire and load.

So through the night rode Paul Revere;
And so through the night went his cry of alarm
To every Middlesex village and farm,---
A cry of defiance, and not of fear,
A voice in the darkness, a knock at the door,
And a word that shall echo for evermore!
For, borne on the night-wind of the Past,
Through all our history, to the last,
In the hour of darkness and peril and need,
The people will waken and listen to hear
The hurrying hoof-beats of that steed,
And the midnight message of Paul Revere.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/29/a7/70/29a77059f10481491fcc36ed57cde9ba.jpg

wizardwatson

05-03-2017, 04:59 PM

Yes, well, I am just happy for responses. Keep them coming, everyone!

Well, that's a key component of happiness and contentment: Low expectations.

r3volution 3.0

05-03-2017, 05:03 PM

I disagree, but I've been wrong before. Even if we assume FRB isn't economically unsound, you have to admit it would be nearly impossible for 100% reserve banking to coexist. The money multiplier effect allows startups to easily inflate the local currency and buy up assets. It would be a competition between the reserve and non-reserve banks. And if they are on even intellectual footing as "acceptable" then 100% reserve banking is out because FRB can just use part of the money multiplier to bribe customers.

That's another way of saying that FR banks would be able to offer better/cheaper services.

Anyway, FRB has got to go, in my opinion. It's economically unsound and prone to abuse, and there's nothing other than arbitrary rules that tell us what the reserve fraction should be.

That's a feature of the state's interference in banking. Absent that, the market regulates the reserve requirement.

Banks' disincentive to overinflate is the very real threat of bankruptcy (with no Fed to bail them out).

It's going to take more than "it was fine before centralization" to convince me. I would say it led to centralization.

What led to centralization in the banking industry was the recognition among bankers that, in a free market, they paid dearly for over-inflation.

They lobbied for the creation of the Fed et al to allow them to do what they could not do previously.

To your "long term, clear thinking, patience" strategy. Just sounds like wishy-washy gradualism to me. You don't seem to have a problem with current systems, just want to be closer to the circle of power.

If that's what you're hearing, you're not listening.

wizardwatson

05-03-2017, 05:18 PM

If that's what you're hearing, you're not listening.

Probably not. You don't agree with Ron Paul. You think FRB is just fine. The only system you propose is a a free school where the tests to get in are really hard.

I really like the idea of allowing the market to determine what backs the currency, make sure there are no-fraud laws, and really look into the matter whether or not we should have fractional reserve banking. Yes, you have the Fed creating money out of this air, but then this is magnified by fractional reserve banking which is really fraudulent. And all it does is build financial bubbles guaranteeing the business cycle and the collapses, and as long as you patch it together, the longer you do that, the bigger the bubble. And now we’re in the midst of a big correction. - Ron Paul

https://www.ronpaul.com/2009-11-14/end-the-fed-consider-outlawing-fractional-reserve-banking/

Guess, I've just been on Ron Paul Forums too long. I get a little tired of anonymous people acting smart but openly contradicting Ron Paul's ideas.

Why didn't you just come out with "There's nothing wrong with FRB." instead of this soft-attack of "Well, I don't really see the financial incentive of using gold in such small amounts."? Why make me dig so hard?

Anyway, thanks for the workout.

helmuth_hubener

05-03-2017, 05:21 PM

Zippyjuan

05-03-2017, 05:24 PM

wizardwatson

05-03-2017, 05:27 PM

Fractional reserve banking means that a bank is required to keep some of their funds in "reserve"- ie, not loaned out. There are two other alternative forms of banking available. One- allow a bank to loan out as much money as they want to (a no- reserve form of banking) or a 100% reserve banking where banks are not allowed to loan out any of the money that they have. If a business needs to borrow money to expand their production or meet payroll, they will be unable to get it from a bank. Which of those two alternatives would you prefer and view as more "legal"?

Fractional reserve banking can exist with or without a central bank and it can exist with metal based money or fiat based money (technically, metal backed currencies would also be "fiat" meaning their value is declared by the government).

Thanks, cap. But me and Ron Paul think it's fraudulent is my point.

There might still be one or two others around here that agree with us.

Zippyjuan

05-03-2017, 05:29 PM

Thanks, cap. But me and Ron Paul think it's fraudulent is my point.

There might still be one or two others around here that agree with us.

Is it the lending of money you consider fraudulent? Do you prefer the 100% reserve bank then?

r3volution 3.0

05-03-2017, 05:31 PM

Fractional reserve banking means that a bank is required to keep some of their funds in "reserve"- ie, not loaned out. There are two other alternative forms of banking available. One- allow a bank to loan out as much money as they want to (a no- reserve form of banking) or a 100% reserve banking where banks are not allowed to loan out any of the money that they have. If a business needs to borrow money to expand their production or meet payroll, they will be unable to get it from a bank. Since the bank is unable to generate revenues from lending in this case, they would have to make money off fees- charging you to keep your money there and for moving your money around. Which of those two alternatives would you prefer and view as more "legal"?

Fractional reserve banking can exist with or without a central bank and it can exist with metal based money or fiat based money (technically, metal backed currencies would also be "fiat" meaning their value is declared by the government). Bubbles can and will occur no matter what form of money or banking you choose. Fraud can also occur with any of them.

The underlined is incorrect.

Loans would just come from time deposits rather than demand deposits.

wizardwatson

05-03-2017, 05:32 PM

Do you prefer the 100% reserve bank then?

Yes, me and Ron Paul both do. You should look him up. Spread the word. Guy has some great ideas.

Zippyjuan

05-03-2017, 05:32 PM

The underlined is incorrect.

Loans would just come from time deposits rather than demand deposits.

If you can loan from any of your deposits, you are talking a fractional reserve form of banking. You prefer a particular kind of fractional reserve then.

I haven't done the numbers for a while but one time I did and came up with about ten percent of deposits being demand deposits and 90% of deposits being time deposits. If a bank has a ten percent reserve requirement (as most do today) then your conditions would be met.

wizardwatson

05-03-2017, 05:33 PM

The underlined is incorrect.

Loans would just come from time deposits rather than demand deposits.

Another important point.

You know, not being straightforward and sufficiently explicit, doesn't make you seem smarter or more knowledgeable. It just makes you passive aggressive.

Everyone knows the current system loans out demand deposits.

r3volution 3.0

05-03-2017, 05:35 PM

If you can loan from any of your deposits, you are talking a fractional reserve form of banking.

No, fractional reserve banking refers to a bank's practice of loaning out demand deposits.

i.e. the bank keeps on hand only a fraction of the funds required to repay all demand liabilities

Time deposits are another matter entirely; there's no need for any reserve, ever, because depositors cannot withdraw them on demand.

r3volution 3.0

05-03-2017, 05:36 PM

Another important point.

You know, not being straightforward and sufficiently explicit, doesn't make you seem smarter or more knowledgeable. It just makes you passive aggressive.

Everyone knows the current system loans out demand deposits.

And I said nothing to the contrary.

I was describing how full reserve banking would work.

Zippyjuan

05-03-2017, 05:39 PM

No, fractional reserve banking refers to a bank's practice of loaning out demand deposits.

i.e. the bank keeps on hand only a fraction of the funds required to repay all demand liabilities

Time deposits are another matter entirely; there's no need for any reserve, ever, because depositors cannot withdraw them on demand.

It is still fractional reserve banking. You are just applying a 100% reserve on some types of accounts and no reserve on other types.

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/fractionalreservebanking.asp

What is 'Fractional Reserve Banking'

Fractional reserve banking is a banking system in which only a fraction of bank deposits are backed by actual cash on hand and are available for withdrawal. This is done to expand the economy by freeing up capital that can be loaned out to other parties.

Banks are required to keep a certain amount of the cash depositors give them on hand available for withdrawal. That is, if someone deposits $100, the bank can't lend out the entire amount. That said, it isn't required to keep the entire amount either. Most banks are required to keep 10% of the deposit, referred to as reserves. This reserve requirement is set by the Federal Reserve and is one of the Fed's tools to implement monetary policy. Increasing the reserve requirement takes money out of the economy, while a decrease in the reserve requirement puts money into the economy.

wizardwatson

05-03-2017, 05:41 PM

And I said nothing to the contrary.

I was describing how full reserve banking would work.

Oh, I thought you were implying that your understanding of FRB was that demand deposits were NOT loaned out.

And here I was, angry at myself for you not being forthcoming and me falsely condemning you as an FRB supporter.

I have moved you from possibly redeemed back into FRB supporter category.

wizardwatson

05-03-2017, 05:43 PM

It is still fractional reserve banking. You are just applying a 100% reserve on some types of accounts and no reserve on other types.

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/fractionalreservebanking.asp

Well, technically he's right. A time "deposit" isn't really a deposit. It's a contractual loan essentially. The depositor of a C.D. for instance is loaning the money explicitly to the bank. Savings accounts are the same way assuming they are not on demand. These facilities could still exist with a 100% reserve bank, because there's no counterfeit effect.

r3volution 3.0

05-03-2017, 05:45 PM

It is still fractional reserve banking. You are just applying a 100% reserve on some types of accounts and no reserve on other types.

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/f/fractionalreservebanking.asp

It sounds like we're arguing about semantics.

The term "fractional reserve banking" normally refers to how banks handle demand deposits - not time deposits.

If some people are using the term differently, well okay, what's in a word, but that's not what I'm talking about.

r3volution 3.0

05-03-2017, 05:46 PM

Oh, I thought you were implying that your understanding of FRB was that demand deposits were NOT loaned out.

And here I was, angry at myself for you not being forthcoming and me falsely condemning you as an FRB supporter.

I have moved you from possibly redeemed back into FRB supporter category.

Explain to me Wiz who is being defrauded by fractional reserve banking.

Zippyjuan

05-03-2017, 05:48 PM

Total savings deposits in the US: $9.2 trillion. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/WSAVNS

Total demand deposits in the US: $1.4 trillion. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/DEMDEPSL

Total deposits by adding the two figures: $10.6 trillion.

If we require 100% reserves on demand deposits and zero reserve on savings deposits that gives us $1.4 trillion in required reserves.

If we require a ten percent reserve on all deposits, we get $1.1 trillion in required reserves. Nearly the same thing.

We basically already have the system you recommend.

Zippyjuan

05-03-2017, 05:54 PM

It sounds like we're arguing about semantics.

The term "fractional reserve banking" normally refers to how banks handle demand deposits - not time deposits.

If some people are using the term differently, well okay, what's in a word, but that's not what I'm talking about.

The definition does not specify any particular type of accounts- only to "deposits". Both savings and demand accounts are types of deposits.

wizardwatson

05-03-2017, 05:54 PM

Explain to me Wiz who is being defrauded by fractional reserve banking.

I don't want to derail Helmuth's thread.

You want to be educated, here you go:
https://www.lewrockwell.com/2008/11/walter-e-block/is-fractional-reserve-banking-fraudulent/

I'm not the one who disagrees with 100% reserve banking, and Helmuth's general aim. I'm not the one who doesn't see ending FRB as a "end game" and who disagrees with Ron Paul on FRB in general. That's you.

Why should I give you the time? I know my level of intelligence and I've gathered enough of you to know the payoff for getting into long convo's with you where it won't benefit third party readers is negative. You might benefit, but I fear that will just make you a better arguer against people I'd rather have win arguments in opposition to you. So you don't get one-on-one special consideration from me. You're just an opponent for spectators.

Zippyjuan

05-03-2017, 05:58 PM

Explain to me Wiz who is being defrauded by fractional reserve banking.

Is it fraud to loan out deposits? He did say that deposits are loans to the bank (which they are). If I loan you $20 and you loan that money to somebody else have you committed fraud? It is only fraud if you fail to repay the money you were loaned. So is lending out money you don't have. If making loans is fraud and depositing money in a bank is a loan then your deposit is also fraud.

From Rockwell:

But if I deposit some cash with the bank, I don’t retain my property interest. Instead, I’m making a loan to the bank and I obtain a contractual right to repayment on demand. If I demand my cash (plus interest, if any) and the bank fails to pay me, then I can sue it for breach of contract and demand expectation damages. If the bank were not a bank but just an ordinary borrower, and it was insolvent, then I have to race other creditors for its assets; otherwise, my contract right is converted into a claim in bankruptcy, and I have to share with other creditors. (Since it is a bank, I may well obtain full compensation from the government, but that is not relevant to the debate.)

If you asked the bank whether it might lend out your money, it would most certainly tell you that it would. So it is not lying to you, and there can’t be fraud. Nor is there any other contradiction, incompatibility, or problem with the arrangement. Depositors take a risk that the bank will breach the contract but anyone who enters a contract takes the same risk.

This says that a bank is NOT committing fraud by being a fractional reserve bank and making loans. They only commit fraud if they fail to pay you back.

wizardwatson

05-03-2017, 06:01 PM

Is it fraud to loan out deposits? He did say that deposits are loans to the bank (which they are). If I loan you $20 and you loan that money to somebody else have you committed fraud? It is only fraud if you fail to repay the money you were loaned. So is lending out money you don't have. If making loans is fraud and depositing money in a bank is a loan then your deposit is also fraud.

You are lost too, apparently. A deposit is not a loan. If it was a loan how could you take it out whenever you wanted?

Read link in post #82 zippy. Try to guess which side Rev is on, and which side I'm on.

I feel like all the Ron Paul supporters left and I'm like talking to NSA robots or something.

Zippyjuan

05-03-2017, 06:07 PM

You are lost too, apparently. A deposit is not a loan. If it was a loan how could you take it out whenever you wanted?

Read link in post #82 zippy. Try to guess which side Rev is on, and which side I'm on.

I feel like all the Ron Paul supporters left and I'm like talking to NSA robots or something.

Let's read post #77 and see what you said instead.

Well, technically he's right. A time "deposit" isn't really a deposit. It's a contractual loan essentially. The depositor of a C.D. for instance is loaning the money explicitly to the bank. Savings accounts are the same way assuming they are not on demand. These facilities could still exist with a 100% reserve bank, because there's no counterfeit effect.

r3volution 3.0

05-03-2017, 06:08 PM

Is it fraud to loan out deposits?

If the deposit is a loan, no. If it's a bailment, yes.

Which is it? Well, that depends on what the bank and depositor agree to.

If they're both under the impression that it's a loan, then it's a loan, and there's no fraud.

If the bank lies to the depositor and tells him it's a bailment, then the bank's defrauded him.

One can argue that in the actual system that presently exists, depositors are being defrauded, led to believe that their depositors are bailments. That's clearly not true, but, even if were true, it wouldn't mean that FRB should be outlawed. No more than a grocery store caught selling water as milk would justify outlawing all groceries. Any business can be fraudulent; you outlaw the fraud, not the entire business.

r3volution 3.0

05-03-2017, 06:09 PM

A deposit is not a loan. If it was a loan how could you take it out whenever you wanted?

Do you know what a call loan is?

Ever heard of a margin call?

Zippyjuan

05-03-2017, 06:13 PM

If the deposit is a loan, no. If it's a bailment, yes.

Which is it? Well, that depends on what the bank and depositor agree to.

If they're both under the impression that it's a loan, then it's a loan, and there's no fraud.

If the bank lies to the depositor and tells him it's a bailment, then the bank's defrauded him.

One can argue that in the actual system that presently exists, depositors are being defrauded, led to believe that their depositors are bailments. That's clearly not true, but, even if were true, it wouldn't mean that FRB should be outlawed. No more than a grocery store caught selling water as milk would justify outlawing all groceries. Any business can be fraudulent; you outlaw the fraud, not the entire business.

Did the bank tell you they would not loan out any money? If you asked them, would they tell you they were not going to loan out your money? Do you expect a bank not to loan out any money? If you deposit money do you expect to get back the exact same notes you deposited in the same condition? Unless they did, it is not a bailment.

Again from the Rockwell article:

“If you asked the bank whether it might lend out your money, it would most certainly tell you that it would. So it is not lying to you, and there can’t be fraud. Nor is there any other contradiction, incompatibility, or problem with the arrangement. Depositors take a risk that the bank will breach the contract but anyone who enters a contract takes the same risk.”

r3volution 3.0

05-03-2017, 06:19 PM

Did the bank tell you they would not loan out any money? If you asked them, would they tell you they were not going to loan out your money? Do you expect a bank not to loan out any money? If you deposit money do you expect to get back the exact same notes you deposited in the same condition? Unless they did, it is not a bailment.

Zippy, I think you're gettng mixed up responding to Wiz and myself at the same time.

I'm arguing that demand deposits are NOT bailments.

I'm arguing that FRB is NOT fraudulent.

We're in agreement (as least with respect to the legitimacy of FRB).

Zippyjuan

05-03-2017, 06:30 PM

r3volution 3.0

05-03-2017, 06:36 PM

Sorry if I confused things.

No problem

On another note, just noticed that the article you posted is from Walter Block. He's one of the few libertarians to challenge Rothbard's fallacious argument against FRB (Bob Murphy may have as well, IIRC), which I'm personally convinced Rothbard made disingenuously (didn't like FRB for economic reasons but didn't want to admit that banning it would violate libertarian ethics), as he was far too intelligent to not see the error in the reasoning.

EDIT: Er, nevermind, read that wrong, Block's on the other side. It was Posner taking the correct, pro-FRB position.

wizardwatson

05-03-2017, 06:41 PM

Zippy, I think you're gettng mixed up responding to Wiz and myself at the same time.

I'm arguing that demand deposits are NOT bailments.

I'm arguing that FRB is NOT fraudulent.

We're in agreement (as least with respect to the legitimacy of FRB).

Sorry if I confused things.

I'm really happy you to could come together in support of Fractional Reserve Banking here in a sound money related thread in grassroots central at ronpaulforums.com

Brings a tear to my eye, really. :rolleyes:

Fractional Reserve Banking IS FRAUD, just like Ron Paul says.

Just like you can't legally make a contract with two people saying you will be at two different locations at once, you can't make a contract saying the same dollar is available for two people you owe it to to withdraw at the same time.

I'm with Block on this. It may be the norm, but liberty isn't the norm.

If you support FRB you're disagreeing with Ron.

wizardwatson

05-03-2017, 06:45 PM

No problem

On another note, just noticed that the article you posted is from Walter Block. He's one of the few libertarians to challenge Rothbard's fallacious argument against FRB (Bob Murphy may have as well, IIRC), which I'm personally convinced Rothbard made disingenuously (didn't like FRB for economic reasons but didn't want to admit that banning it would violate libertarian ethics), as he was far too intelligent to not see the error in the reasoning.

I think you are recalling incorrectly. Walter Block is the one in that article zippy quoted, that I posted, lambasting Eric Posner's attack on Walters anti-frb stance.

So...yeah, not sure what you're confusion is here.

Zippyjuan

05-03-2017, 06:50 PM

I'm really happy you to could come together in support of Fractional Reserve Banking here in a sound money related thread in grassroots central at ronpaulforums.com

Brings a tear to my eye, really. :rolleyes:

Fractional Reserve Banking IS FRAUD, just like Ron Paul says.

Just like you can't legally make a contract with two people saying you will be at two different locations at once, you can't make a contract saying the same dollar is available for two people you owe it to to withdraw at the same time.

I'm with Block on this. It may be the norm, but liberty isn't the norm.

If you support FRB you're disagreeing with Ron.

So what would your alternative to Fractional Reserve Banking be? A 100% reserve bank which is unable to make loans?

wizardwatson

05-03-2017, 06:53 PM

So what would your alternative to Fractional Reserve Banking be? A 100% reserve bank which is unable to make loans?

The act of loaning need not be attached to the act of providing a reserve banking and payment system. We're just used to them being associated.

r3volution 3.0

05-03-2017, 06:54 PM

Just like you can't legally make a contract with two people saying you will be at two different locations at once, you can't make a contract saying the same dollar is available for two people you owe it to to withdraw at the same time.

That's not what the contract says.

The contract says "I agree to loan $100 to ABC Bank at 1% per year, the loan being callable on demand."

The $100 is not available to two people at the same time.

It's available to the bank until the depositor calls the loan.

Zippyjuan

05-03-2017, 06:56 PM

The act of loaning need not be attached to the act of providing a reserve banking and payment system. We're just used to them being associated.

Where does the bank then get money to loan out? Their own pockets? Or do they cease lending?

wizardwatson

05-03-2017, 06:59 PM

Where does the bank then get money to loan out? Their own pockets? Or do they cease lending?

The initial loan has to be explicit. Anyone can make a loan. This isn't some kind of magical thing only banks can do, or that by doing you become "a bank". Banks can loan their assets, which might be proceeds from explicit loans from customers.

That you are baffled by this basic concept only shows how indoctrinated we are with the current banking establishments practices.

Zippyjuan

05-03-2017, 07:03 PM

The initial loan has to be explicit. Anyone can make a loan. This isn't some kind of magical thing only banks can do, or that by doing you become "a bank". Banks can loan their assets, which might be proceeds from explicit loans from customers.

That you are baffled by this basic concept only shows how indoctrinated we are with the current banking establishments practices.

Like deposits? You stated earlier that they were explicit loans to the bank from their customers.

Well, technically he's right. A time "deposit" isn't really a deposit. It's a contractual loan essentially. The depositor of a C.D. for instance is loaning the money explicitly to the bank. Savings accounts are the same way assuming they are not on demand. These facilities could still exist with a 100% reserve bank, because there's no counterfeit effect.

wizardwatson

05-03-2017, 07:09 PM

Where does the bank then get money to loan out? Their own pockets? Or do they cease lending?

Let me be more clear.

Banks have safety deposit boxes. They already perform a type of 100% reserve system doing that.

With 100% reserve banking it's like everything is in a safety deposit box. Does that change things like using my debit card or writing a check? No it does not. Once you write a check, that's permission for the bank to debit your account and credit their own and dispense the funds to the recipient of your check. (Or use software to clear with other banks).

It also doesn't change the practice of loaning. But anyone with sufficient capital can make loans, and typically loans require some form of collateral anyway. I doubt if 100% reserve banking came into being though that loaning services would remain so tightly coupled.

wizardwatson

05-03-2017, 07:12 PM

Like deposits? You stated earlier that they were explicit loans to the bank from their customers.

I said things like CD's "Certificates of Deposits" were like loans. But in a 100% reserve system they would have to be explicitly loans.

I'm was talking about "time deposits" in that post as opposed to "demand deposits". Contractually a 6 month loan and a 6 month "certificate of deposit" are similar from the customers side of things.

Zippyjuan

05-03-2017, 07:13 PM

Let me be more clear.

Banks have safety deposit boxes. They already perform a type of 100% reserve system doing that.

With 100% reserve banking it's like everything is in a safety deposit box. Does that change things like using my debit card or writing a check? No it does not. Once you write a check, that's permission for the bank to debit your account and credit their own and dispense the funds to the recipient of your check. (Or use software to clear with other banks).

It also doesn't change the practice of loaning. But anyone with sufficient capital can make loans, and typically loans require some form of collateral anyway. I doubt if 100% reserve banking came into being though that loaning services would remain so tightly coupled.

Writing a check or using a safe deposit box is not taking out a loan. You seem to favor banks being a storage place rather than a transaction place. You can put things there but they can't do anything with it.

Zippyjuan

05-03-2017, 07:15 PM

I said things like CD's "Certificates of Deposits" were like loans. But in a 100% reserve system they would have to be explicitly loans.

I'm was talking about "time deposits" in that post as opposed to "demand deposits". Contractually a 6 month loan and a 6 month "certificate of deposit" are similar from the customers side of things.

You called time deposits explicit loans. And savings accounts.

The depositor of a C.D. for instance is loaning the money explicitly to the bank. Savings accounts are the same way assuming they are not on demand.

r3volution 3.0

05-03-2017, 07:21 PM

wizardwatson, still waiting for a response:

That's not what the contract says.

The contract says "I agree to loan $100 to ABC Bank at 1% per year, the loan being callable on demand."

The $100 is not available to two people at the same time.

It's available to the bank until the depositor calls the loan.

I've gone ahead and created a dedicated thread (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?510300-Fractional-Reserve-Banking-Is-Not-Fraudulent) for FRB. You can respond there if you like.

Zippyjuan

05-03-2017, 08:06 PM

You mail a check. ACH and automatic deposit will also be options.

Back to the thread topic.

So to set up an account, I send you dollars. Since I am in the US (like most here- your site says there is one for overseas customers) I will be charged a fee. You issue me a debit card I can use against that money I sent you- which you use to buy gold (which doesn't really effect me- I am spending my own money I already gave you to get the debit card). I use the debit card and the balance in my account goes down. And only if I don't use all of money and want some back do I actually have anything to do with the gold. From my end, I am not really using gold but dollars. You are tracking my transactions in terms of gold (bookkeeping) but everything on my end is dollars. The stores I use the card at are not getting gold but dollars. I gave you dollars to fund the account. I pretend I am using gold for money but really I am not. I am just adding another layer of complexity and costs to the transactions.

Aren't I better off using accounts and cards I already have and if I want to "redeem" my account for gold buying it myself?

Origanalist

05-03-2017, 08:27 PM

Back to the thread topic.

So to set up an account, I send you dollars. Since I am in the US (like most here- your site says there is one for overseas customers) I will be charged a fee. You issue me a debit card I can use against that money I sent you- which you use to buy gold (which doesn't really effect me- I am spending my own money I already gave you to get the debit card). I use the debit card and the balance in my account goes down. And only if I don't use all of money and want some back do I actually have anything to do with the gold. From my end, I am not really using gold but dollars. You are tracking my transactions in terms of gold (bookkeeping) but everything on my end is dollars. The stores I use the card at are not getting gold but dollars. I gave you dollars to fund the account. I pretend I am using gold for money but really I am not. I am just adding another layer of complexity and costs to the transactions.

Aren't I better off using accounts and cards I already have and if I want to "redeem" my account for gold buying it myself?

Sure, I guess. But you like a lot of people are missing the point entirely. You take your FRN's, transfer them into gold backed currency, and then spend them at your leisure. I don't see what you're all freaked out about, I'm going to use it and if you don't want to don't. Personally I'm going to do everything in my power to deny the federal reserve any way I can no matter how trivial.

Zippyjuan

05-03-2017, 08:38 PM

Sure, I guess. But you like a lot of people are missing the point entirely. You take your FRN's, transfer them into gold backed currency, and then spend them at your leisure. I don't see what you're all freaked out about, I'm going to use it and if you don't want to don't. Personally I'm going to do everything in my power to deny the federal reserve any way I can no matter how trivial.

You aren't denying the Federal Reserve anything. You are using Federal Reserve notes. Helmut is the only one using the gold. Plus the Federal Reserve processes a large chunk of credit and debit cards so you may be giving them more money.

The Fed's income comes primarily from the interest on government securities that it has acquired through open market operations. Other sources of income are the interest on foreign currency investments held by the Federal Reserve System; fees received for services provided to depository institutions, such as check clearing, funds transfers, and automated clearinghouse operations; and interest on loans to depository institutions.

https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/about_12799.htm

You are right it is up to the individual to decide if it could work for them. If you like it, great.

Origanalist

05-03-2017, 08:41 PM

You aren't denying the Federal Reserve anything. You are using Federal Reserve notes. Helmut is the only one using the gold. Plus the Federal Reserve processes a large chunk of credit and debit cards so you may be giving them more money.

https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/about_12799.htm

You are right it is up to the individual to decide if it could work for them. If you like it, great.

While my money is in that account it's not fiat money. Tell me why I'm wrong.

Zippyjuan

05-03-2017, 08:52 PM

While my money is in that account it's not fiat money. Tell me why I'm wrong.

Only while it is in that account. The money you put in is fiat, the money you take out and spend is fiat. Unless you take him up on his gold redemption offer. But if you like the idea, go for it.

wizardwatson

05-03-2017, 08:57 PM

While my money is in that account it's not fiat money. Tell me why I'm wrong.

Do you ever feel like you are in the twilight zone?

RPF 2008: End the Fed! Only gold and silver based constitutional money!

RPF 2017: Fractional Reserve Banking is sound money. If you invest in gold and keep it as savings, really you're still using fiat currency because you bought the gold with FRN's.

..ugh.

Origanalist

05-03-2017, 08:57 PM

Only while it is in that account. The money you put in is fiat, the money you take out and spend is fiat. Unless you take him up on his gold redemption offer. But if you like the idea, go for it.

I am. And while my money is in there it is gold backed currency, not fairy dust bullshit monopoly money created by the federal reserve. It may not be a huge game changer but it's a move in the right direction.

Origanalist

05-03-2017, 08:58 PM

Do you ever feel like you are in the twilight zone?

RPF 2008: End the Fed! Only gold and silver based constitutional money!

RPF 2017: Fractional Reserve Banking is sound money. If you invest in gold and keep it as savings, really you're still using fiat currency because you bought the gold with FRN's.

..ugh.

RPF's has undergone quite the transformation.

Zippyjuan

05-03-2017, 09:00 PM

Origanalist

05-03-2017, 09:02 PM

True. Unless you pay somebody with gold for something.

Hey slippy, you are paying with gold.

Zippyjuan

05-03-2017, 09:03 PM

Hey slippy, you are paying with gold.

So when you use that debit card, the merchant gets paid in gold. Does Helmut ship it to them?

Origanalist

05-03-2017, 09:06 PM

So when you use that debit card, the merchant gets paid in gold.

Yes. And it get's transferred to FRN's at that point. That is my understanding.

Zippyjuan

05-03-2017, 09:07 PM

Yes. And it get's transferred to FRN's at that point. That is my understanding.

I could be wrong but I think they are getting paid in FRNs. The "gold balance" in your account gets converted back into FRNs and that is what the merchant receives. It is only gold while it is in your account as I understand it.

wizardwatson

05-03-2017, 09:13 PM

I could be wrong but I think they are getting paid in FRNs.

Zippy, think of it as Originalist lives in Ron Paul country and Zippy lives in FRB loving Bankster country.

Originalist opens an account at Ron Paul's 100% gold backed awesome bank, and Zippy has an account in Baby-killer Luciferian FRB Bank of the Jesuits in Bankster country.

Just because Originalist writes you a check and some exchange is doing the conversion doesn't mean his account isn't gold-backed. It is.

Zippyjuan

05-03-2017, 09:14 PM

Okay. Since it is gold backed, can I insist that Helmut gives me gold instead of FRNs when Originalist buys something from me? Or is it only convertible by Originalist into gold since it is his account? Does the gold always stay there until he has no more money in the account? If I can get gold from him, then yes, it is really gold backed. Otherwise it is just a bookkeeping thing.

r3volution 3.0

05-03-2017, 09:16 PM

Do you ever feel like you are in the twilight zone?

RPF 2008: End the Fed! Only gold and silver based constitutional money!

RPF 2017: Fractional Reserve Banking is sound money.

You're mixing up different ideas.

One can (and should) both (a) end the Fed, (b) return to hard money, and (c) allow fractional reserve banking.

There's no contradiction there at all.

The base money can be gold (or whatever the market chooses), and that can be the base for fractional reserve banking.

That's in fact how banking worked in the past.

And it worked just fine; the problem has always been state interference (chiefly by bailing out failing banks).

helmuth_hubener

05-04-2017, 07:47 AM

See, helmuth. Not to pick on our misnomer-ed friend r3volution 3.0, but it's a perfect example of what Rothbard talked about in Ethics concerning people more attracted to the idea of liberty than the goals:

Now, again, maybe this isn't who Rev3 "really is", you know... "deep down" or whatever, but the sentiments he expresses are spot on for the comparison. Well, look, he's not my favorite either; I still have him on ignore. However, he has come and taken the time to give feedback on my project, and that helps me, even if it's negative. I think. I could be wrong. I suppose if the thread gets too overwhelmingly negative it could become toxic and be a net loss.

So anyway, good on ya and thank you, r3volution 3.0.

So I'm going to stick around on your thread. I've subscribed and what-not so I'll do my part to thwart the gatekeepers. You've actually done something, and you're aware I have as well, and neither of us are anonymous. So that's something to build on.

I'm very much interested in sound money strategy, and we've both put a lot of effort into it, so perhaps if nothing else, we can learn something and cause others to learn something. Well thank you very much. Yes, I hope so.

Still waiting to hear about April 19th. Lexington and Concord. Patriot's Day.

And one was safe and asleep in his bed
Who at the bridge would be first to fall,
Who that day would be lying dead,
Pierced by a British musket ball.

I honor that man. I honor him. I honor them all. May we remember them forever.

So through the night rode Paul Revere;
And so through the night went his cry of alarm
To every Middlesex village and farm,---
A cry of defiance, and not of fear,
A voice in the darkness, a knock at the door,
And a word that shall echo for evermore!
For, borne on the night-wind of the Past,
Through all our history, to the last,
In the hour of darkness and peril and need,
The people will waken and listen to hear
The hurrying hoof-beats of that steed,
And the midnight message of Paul Revere.

Also, very curious that you are the first "sound money" project I've seen from a member here in the 10 years this site has existed. Thought I would be the first, but you beat me by 2 days. Kinda spooky. :) I guess it was time.

helmuth_hubener

05-04-2017, 07:56 AM

Helmuth, what about this:

What if, in addition to auto-conversion to dollars, you passed this through bitcoin as well, or any other crypto for that matter.

I buy gold, and in addition to my account being useable with the card, I also have a bitcoin wallet to spend my gold. If you tie the gold vault to the bitcoin wallet on the bank side as well, it gives a level of transparency and auditing that the blockchain provides, and also removes this stigma everyone's throwing at you that "it's really just dollars behind it all isn't it?"

You could peg a crypto as a gold weight, heck, there might already be one. I haven't really ever looked. In other words have an additional pay-out mechanism: bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies. I don't know how much demand there would be for that. Bitcoin enthusiasts can already pay people and merchants who accept bitcoin. Of which there are not all that many, by the way (relative to how many merchants accept Visa).

That said, there is an attractiveness to being a hub, an elegant and simple-to-use nexus, connecting together gold, bitcoin, and the dollar. I think that a lot of people (especially libertarians) would like that. So there is something to your idea.

helmuth_hubener

05-04-2017, 07:59 AM

For what? I thought I'd posted here, but I can't find it. Sorry to confuse you, osan. No, you hadn't posted here yet. I am ask for and inviting your feedback regarding the new gold-backed payment card I have created. Check it out, if you have a moment:

https://Midas.gold (https://Midas.gold/intro)

Thanks!

helmuth_hubener

05-04-2017, 08:12 AM

FRB is popular because people would rather earn interest than pay fees on their demand deposits. The fact that people are not getting virtually any interest on their deposits right now from the incumbent banks, along with the fact that many millions of people actually pay more in nuisance fees than they get in interest, makes the incumbents highly vulnerable to disruption at this point in time.

Retail banks today make a majority of their revenues from... what? <Fanfare>: Fees! That's right, banks profit when their customers make a mistake! That is their #1 revenue stream. It will take decades of the "interest payments" you're talking about for all those .1 percents to finally offset a single $20 overdraft fee.

That is the real situation.

I intend to out-compete these buggers.

Origanalist

05-04-2017, 08:20 AM

The fact that people are not getting virtually any interest on their deposits right now from the incumbent banks, along with the fact that many millions of people actually pay more in nuisance fees than they get in interest, makes the incumbents highly vulnerable to disruption at this point in time.

Retail banks today make a majority of their revenues from... what? <Fanfare>: Fees! That's right, banks profit when their customers make a mistake! That is their #1 revenue stream. It will take decades of the "interest payments" you're talking about for all those .1 percents to finally offset a single $20 overdraft fee.

That is the real situation.

I intend to out-compete these buggers.

I left Bank of Amigo over those fees, $35.00 a shot if I remember right. It was a complete scam, they weren't anything but thieves holding your money. I went to a small community bank and haven't had one single problem for years now.

It's not very accessible as it only has 5 branches and isn't open Saturdays but it's worth it not to have the greedy bastards leeching off my hard earned money.

helmuth_hubener

05-04-2017, 08:23 AM

So to set up an account, I send you dollars. Since I am in the US (like most here- your site says there is one for overseas customers) I will be charged a fee. No, not at all. There will be NO FEE.

You issue me a debit card I can use against that money I sent you- which you use to buy gold (which doesn't really affect me It does affect you: you are the owner of the gold. You now own gold. That is different than owning dollars, just as owning real estate is different than owning junk bonds.

Now, that may not be a huge difference, depending on how you look at it, but it is a difference. Gold and (present-day paper) dollars are two different classes of objects. They have dramatically divergent properties.

Previously, one big difference was that dollars you could spend, in virtually all situations calling for spending, whereas gold you could not spend in virtually any situation. This made dollars a whole lot more useful.

Midas changes that. It makes gold more useful.

helmuth_hubener

05-04-2017, 08:32 AM

Sure, I guess. But you like a lot of people are missing the point entirely. You take your FRN's, transfer them into gold backed currency, and then spend them at your leisure. I don't see what you're all freaked out about, I'm going to use it and if you don't want to don't. Personally I'm going to do everything in my power to deny the federal reserve any way I can no matter how trivial.

Thanks a million for all your support, Origanalist! And thanks for your patience; I know it's taken a long time.

Thanks also wizardwatson for holding down the fort and for the very generous words of support. I've got to get back over to your site and do some more testing for you one of these days soon, here. Check out his Metric Reserve system, people!

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?509872-My-first-and-last-official-business-thread-Metric-Reserve

www.metricreserve.com

helmuth_hubener

05-04-2017, 08:33 AM

Helmuth is the only one using the gold.
:rolleyes: Totally false lie.

wizardwatson

05-04-2017, 08:37 AM

Thanks a million for all your support, Origanalist! And thanks for your patience; I know it's taken a long time.

Thanks also wizardwatson for holding down the fort and for the very generous words of support. I've got to get back over to your site and do some more testing for you one of these days soon, here. Check out his Metric Reserve system, people!

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?509872-My-first-and-last-official-business-thread-Metric-Reserve

www.metricreserve.com

Thanks,

Yeah, I'm in the middle of an interface overhaul. In fact pondering just today whether to just go ahead and blockchain the concept myself. Meaning, take the metric reserve model and implement it on a blockchain, and just have www.metricreserve.com be an interface too it, much like coinbase is.

I'm sure I'll finish the interface overhaul in any case. Just a lot of work if I go the blockchain route.

But this ongoing convo about FRB has made me realize just how pro-blockchain I am. People are so in love with FRB, money in this world really needs the blockchain. Shell game needs to end where money is concerned.

Thanks for the plug.

helmuth_hubener

05-04-2017, 08:37 AM

...as to your debit card idea...question...i give you 1000 frn's when gold is at exactly [comex] 1000 frn's/oz...6 mos. later (and no account activity) gold is at exactly 1500/oz..how many frn's are available to me?....and how many frn's are available to me if the price drops to exactly 500/oz?...

Great question, Hank!

When gold is at 1500/oz, $1500 FRNs will be available to you.

When gold is at 500/oz, $500 FRNs will be available to you.

Origanalist

05-04-2017, 08:45 AM

Great question, Hank!

When gold is at 1500/oz, $1500 FRNs will be available to you.

When gold is at 500/oz, $500 FRNs will be available to you.

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/stir.gif

helmuth_hubener

05-04-2017, 09:00 AM

Regarding the Fractional Reserve Banking issue:

I will briefly weigh in. Midas is 100% reserve. RIAs are, in fact, legally required to be 100% reserve with respect to their clients' funds. We will never be fractional reserve. I am strongly committed on the side of full-reserve.

I, like Rothbard, am opposed to FRB on economic grounds. Also, I did not read the entire conversation but I will admit that r3v is correct when he says that two parties should in general be able to contract with each other however they want. Contract is sacred. In a free society, we must respect contract.

That said, there is some problematicness in being inherently bankrupt, and also in incurring obligations which are mathematically impossible to keep in realistic scenarios with non-trivial probability of occurring (scenarios which, in fact, can be expected to occur eventually and have occurred repeatedly throughout history).

Anyway, these are interesting technical issues. Even with time deposits, by the way, solvency would require the cumulative average loan duration to match or to be less than the cumulative average deposit duration. These are just good, sound, safe accounting practices. 100% reserve is good and sound and safe. Might other less sound arrangements be acceptable to some people? Perhaps.

Just not to us at Midas.

r3volution 3.0

05-04-2017, 11:52 AM

The fact that people are not getting virtually any interest on their deposits right now from the incumbent banks, along with the fact that many millions of people actually pay more in nuisance fees than they get in interest, makes the incumbents highly vulnerable to disruption at this point in time.

...

I intend to out-compete these buggers.

There may be an opening there; they've gotten complacent in their cartel and charge higher fees/pay less interest than they could.

This doesn't necessarily have anything to do with gold, mind you (a payment system that uses dollars exclusively might compete on this front).

Anyway, I have a specific question about how your platform works:

You're doing at least one round-trip exchange from dollars to gold to dollars per transaction, right?

And you're storing physical gold in Switzerland?

If you don't charge any fees, how are you covering those costs?

If you already explained this, my apologies.

helmuth_hubener

05-04-2017, 12:32 PM

There may be an opening there; they've gotten complacent in their cartel and charge higher fees/pay less interest than they could.

This doesn't necessarily have anything to do with gold, mind you (a payment system that uses dollars exclusively might compete on this front). True.

Anyway, I have a specific question about how your platform works:

You're doing at least one round-trip exchange from dollars to gold to dollars per transaction, right?

And you're storing physical gold in Switzerland?

If you don't charge any fees, how are you covering those costs?

If you already explained this, my apologies.
We'll make it up on volume! :D

No, it's good to be suspicious of companies with no visible revenue source. First off, the storage fees and conversion fees we're dealing with are surprisingly low. At least part of the long-term revenue plan involves sharing a portion of the merchant charges (which, as you may know, is a significant percentage). Profitability will not be immediate (especially with significant sunk costs), but with enough active customers it should be able to turn a profit.

r3volution 3.0

05-04-2017, 12:52 PM

We'll make it up on volume! :D

LOL

No, it's good to be suspicious of companies with no visible revenue source. First off, the storage fees and conversion fees we're dealing with are surprisingly low. At least part of the long-term revenue plan involves sharing a portion of the merchant charges (which, as you may know, is a significant percentage). Profitability will not be immediate (especially with significant sunk costs), but with enough active customers it should be able to turn a profit.

Gotcha

Do you anticipate getting merchants to pay from the outset (I would assume you'd need a fairly large user base to entice them)?

And how do the merchant fees compare to other payment systems?

helmuth_hubener

05-04-2017, 01:18 PM

Do you anticipate getting merchants to pay from the outset (I would assume you'd need a fairly large user base to entice them)?
I don't want to share too much confidential information, but I do not anticipate being profitable before at least 1,000 customers.

specsaregood

05-04-2017, 01:21 PM

Send me information on how to sign up as a beta tester.

But, what are the tax implications? IF gold goes up and we convert to USD to spend are we not on the hook for capital gains?

r3volution 3.0

05-04-2017, 01:22 PM

I don't want to share too much confidential information, but I do not anticipate being profitable before at least 1,000 customers.

Fair enough

I remain skeptical of the political value of this sort of thing, but it does sound plausible as a payment system.

And I do applaud your ambition

Best of luck

Zippyjuan

05-04-2017, 01:36 PM

No, not at all. There will be NO FEE.

It does affect you: you are the owner of the gold. You now own gold. That is different than owning dollars, just as owning real estate is different than owning junk bonds.

Now, that may not be a huge difference, depending on how you look at it, but it is a difference. Gold and (present-day paper) dollars are two different classes of objects. They have dramatically divergent properties.

Previously, one big difference was that dollars you could spend, in virtually all situations calling for spending, whereas gold you could not spend in virtually any situation. This made dollars a whole lot more useful.

Midas changes that. It makes gold more useful.

Thank you for the correction. Since you are in Switzerland I assumed that Americans would be considered foreign customers.

Foreign Transaction Fee: 2% of each foreign purchase transaction or foreign ATM advance transaction in U.S. Dollars; 3% of each foreign purchase transaction or foreign ATM advance transaction in Foreign Currency

osan

05-04-2017, 05:12 PM

Sorry to confuse you, osan. No, you hadn't posted here yet. I am ask for and inviting your feedback regarding the new gold-backed payment card I have created. Check it out, if you have a moment:

https://Midas.gold (https://Midas.gold/intro)

Thanks!

Well, it is a damned sight better than anything we have at this time. It seems you are effectively issuing gold-backed electronic money. My question, and I have not yet read the site because I just got in from doing farm stuff and I'm whipped, is whether it would be convertible. I see both virtues and hazards in convertibility. I can easily see hordes of people panicking and depleting the gold reserve in about 10 minutes when some talking-douche on the TV announces that the economy is crashing hard and that we are all about to die. We all know how that sort of thing goes.

Were this to take off, and I wish you all success, I see several possibilities. Firstly, you become a billionaire, which would please me to no end. There would be an effectively stable currency, all else equal - which leads me to some concerns. Were this to succeed, one of two things would likely happen: either every bank on the planet would jump on the bandwagon, or your body would be found floating down some obscure river in Outer Mongolia. If stable and effectively real money (or currency) is precisely what Theye do not want, I would fear for your very life because you are poking a large and dangerous creature whose attention most men do not want. Of course, all this assumes that money such as this is an actual economic factor in the grander scheme of global economic politics, which it may not be. I suspect that one of the reasons we have not had a global currency meltdown is because of all the electronics. There are vast swaths of currency stores that can simply disappear and reappear with a few keystrokes. That changes the power game fundamentally when compared with paper that must be run through a press and which, once released into the market, becomes very difficult for Themme to control.

Origanalist

05-04-2017, 10:10 PM

Well, I managed to make three different transactions at three different locations with $25.00 in gold backed currency today. I'll be sending a check after I order some Helmuth.

Jamesiv1

05-05-2017, 05:15 AM

No. :mad: That is a serious accusation.My apologies. I really did not mean that in an untoward way. I just meant that instead of me holding my gold, now you would be holding my gold. No offense intended.

Peace&Freedom

05-05-2017, 06:56 AM

True.

We'll make it up on volume! :D

No, it's good to be suspicious of companies with no visible revenue source. First off, the storage fees and conversion fees we're dealing with are surprisingly low. At least part of the long-term revenue plan involves sharing a portion of the merchant charges (which, as you may know, is a significant percentage). Profitability will not be immediate (especially with significant sunk costs), but with enough active customers it should be able to turn a profit.

I'm not concerned about the coverage of expenses issue (you'll figure that out as you proceed), but more about the protection from the jackboots issue. In a decade that has seen the raiding of lots of online, gold-based financial services or alternatives to government fiat tyranny, will your variation fare any better? E.g., just because the gold is in Zurich, the site and business may still subject the enterprise to government intervention (shutdown attempts) if either of the latter are US based.

You don't think they'll go after you? Tell it to the Liberty Dollar, e-Gold, e-Bullion, Liberty Reserve, etc. If you are a non-fiat alternative that could thus effect the current regime in some way, watch out. Bitcoin et al cryptocurrency has been successful for a reason---as an open-source software and peer network based transaction vehicle, there is no office to raid, no centrally located assets that can be seized, no party to subpoena to suspend operations, and no website to shut down. To duplicate that kind of invulnerability to disruption while still remaining physically based, you will have to take more steps than I see on the current site.

I suggest to you four countries: Morocco, Cambodia, Nepal, and Mongolia. These are about the only four nations left that a) have no laws or enforce no laws about such financial alternatives, and b) have no standing extradition arrangement with the US. I suggest you store the gold in one of these four countries, set up the physical HQ in another, register the domain in another, and host the site on a server in the fourth.

Between the lack of US jurisdiction and the spreading of risk across countries not cooperating with the US, your alternative then should be safe enough to stably operate. Apart from such extreme safeguards, I have concerns about its survival.

helmuth_hubener

05-05-2017, 08:53 AM

Well, I managed to make three different transactions at three different locations with $25.00 in gold backed currency today. I'll be sending a check after I order some Helmuth.

That's great, Origanalist!

helmuth_hubener

05-05-2017, 09:21 AM

Send me information on how to sign up as a beta tester.

But, what are the tax implications? IF gold goes up and we convert to USD to spend are we not on the hook for capital gains?

Can do! PM on the way.

Regarding taxes: precious metals are classified by the IRS as collectibles, and so a higher capital gains rate may apply. The maximum capital gains rate charged on collectables is 28 percent. This does not necessarily mean that you will have to pay 28 percent, however. The actual rate that someone pays is determined by the amount of time the precious metals were held and the payer’s ordinary income tax rate. The investor must also determine if the capital gain is short-term or long-term based on how long they held the precious metals. Short-term capital gains are taxed differently from long-term capital gains.

I am, unfortunately, (or maybe fortunately! :D) not a tax expert, but basically this is my understanding:

1. 28% is the maximum, not the minimum.
2. If your regular tax rate is lower than 28%, you use your regular tax rate (just add the gains on as a little extra income).
3. If your overall amount of capital gains is below a certain amount, I think it's $10, nobody reports it and the IRS doesn't worry about it.

From the IRS directly:

"If you figure your tax using the maximum capital gain rate and the regular tax computation results in a lower tax, the regular tax computation applies.
Example.

"All of your net capital gain is from selling collectibles, so the capital gain rate would be 28%. If you are otherwise subject to a rate lower than 28%, the 28% rate does not apply."

-- http://www.irs.gov/publications/p17/ch16.html#d0e56153

wizardwatson

05-05-2017, 10:15 AM

I have a question Helmuth, for everyone's benefit really.

In the thread which split off this one concerning whether FRB was fraudulent (I say it is and was declared thread winner by the way) the main question of what distinguishes a fractional reserve bank from a 100% reserve bank is WHETHER THE DEPOSITOR IS THE LEGAL OWNER OF THE DEPOSIT.

Can you assure your customers that they are in fact the legal owners of the gold being stored on their behalf and that their deposit is not a "loan" to your institution?

Because if the deposit is a "loan" then technically it is your companies asset. If it is a bailment, then you are simply storing the owners asset for some fee.

Very important question.

EDIT: Also, sign me up for beta testing. You signed up for mine, I feel like I'm not reciprocating fully.

specsaregood

05-05-2017, 10:26 AM

Can do! PM on the way.

Regarding taxes: precious metals are classified by the IRS as collectibles, and so a higher capital gains rate may apply. The maximum capital gains rate charged on collectables is 28 percent. This does not necessarily mean that you will have to pay 28 percent, however. The actual rate that someone pays is determined by the amount of time the precious metals were held and the payer’s ordinary income tax rate. The investor must also determine if the capital gain is short-term or long-term based on how long they held the precious metals. Short-term capital gains are taxed differently from long-term capital gains.

I am, unfortunately, (or maybe fortunately! :D) not a tax expert, but basically this is my understanding:

1. 28% is the maximum, not the minimum.
2. If your regular tax rate is lower than 28%, you use your regular tax rate (just add the gains on as a little extra income).
3. If your overall amount of capital gains is below a certain amount, I think it's $10, nobody reports it and the IRS doesn't worry about it.

From the IRS directly:

"If you figure your tax using the maximum capital gain rate and the regular tax computation results in a lower tax, the regular tax computation applies.
Example.

"All of your net capital gain is from selling collectibles, so the capital gain rate would be 28%. If you are otherwise subject to a rate lower than 28%, the 28% rate does not apply."

-- http://www.irs.gov/publications/p17/ch16.html#d0e56153

So the answer is yes.
With that in mind, will you have detailed reports available to users that show their conversion rates with buy-in/cash out dates and the differences in value so they can properly figure out their taxes owed. Or even plan on sending out a yearly statement if requested with all the info they need?

I say this partly to protect your customers AND to protect yourself as not doing so could be interpreted as aiding tax evasion I would think.

helmuth_hubener

05-05-2017, 10:59 AM

So the answer is yes. Yes. Sorry, I guess maybe I over-complicated the answer with too much information. :)

With that in mind, will you have detailed reports available to users that show their conversion rates with buy-in/cash out dates and the differences in value so they can properly figure out their taxes owed. Or even plan on sending out a yearly statement if requested with all the info they need?

I say this partly to protect your customers AND to protect yourself as not doing so could be interpreted as aiding tax evasion I would think. Absolutely. Thus far everyone has been well under the $10 limit, so no problem. But once things are really rolling, we will need to provide everyone with an annual report like you are talking about -- probably just a 1099, actually. So for 2016 we didn't, but for year-end 2017, that is the plan!

helmuth_hubener

05-05-2017, 11:06 AM

I have a question Helmuth, for everyone's benefit really.

Can you assure your customers that they are in fact the legal owners of the gold being stored on their behalf and that their deposit is not a "loan" to your institution? Yes, the customers are definitely the legal owners of the gold. Midas is just the custodian. As a good custodian, our job is simply to make sure the gold is sitting there, safely. We cannot use the gold for anything -- certainly cannot loan it out.

EDIT: Also, sign me up for beta testing. You signed up for mine, I feel like I'm not reciprocating fully. Can do!

helmuth_hubener

05-05-2017, 11:34 AM

My apologies. I really did not mean that in an untoward way. I just meant that instead of me holding my gold, now you would be holding my gold. No offense intended. No problem!

helmuth_hubener

05-10-2017, 03:23 PM

jct74, Bryan, JoshLowry, ronpaulhawaii? Incisive remarks?

ronpaulhawaii

05-10-2017, 11:59 PM

Looks simple enough. A pre-paid debit card that uses gold to store value.

For me, using this would be completely separate from any personal stacking I may do, so I'm not sure why that red herring was tossed in the fire... Then a whole field of FRB strawman. Quite the slog... That Rothbard quote was apropo...

I'm assuming you are banking on merchant fees and rounding down to turn a profit. What about ATM fees?

On a different note, I don't care for the thought cloud thing on the blog page. Looks cute. I don't know that cute and banking fit well. More practically, it makes it hard for me to scan/read, being a small window. Otherwise site looks good and url is great.

Bravo for this initiative. I'd be happy to help beta test.

#Onward

helmuth_hubener

05-11-2017, 09:05 AM

Looks simple enough. A pre-paid debit card that uses gold to store value. Right, except I would leave off the "pre-paid" part. Pre-paids are cards like Green Dot, etc., that one can pick up at Walgreens-type places and usually charge high monthly fees. This is more like just a normal debit card. Except it uses gold to store value, just as you say.

For me, using this would be completely separate from any personal stacking I may do, so I'm not sure why that red herring was tossed in the fire Exactly! Thank You!! You understand it 100%. We all can and should have some gold and a little bit of silver in physical form -- I would generally recommend bullion coins -- and keep it in our possession. At the same time, most of us also need to interface with the larger world around us and purchase things from it, and today that means using the current banking/payment processing system, and that's what Midas is designed to help with. It would be great if everyone accepted bullion coins and all employers paid with bullion coins and we could just run our lives on that, on the physical metals. Unfortunately, that's not the case. This is a step, at least, to get a little closer to that.

I'm assuming you are banking on merchant fees and rounding down to turn a profit. What about ATM fees? Yes. ATM fees is an unresolved issue. I would like people to be able to affordably withdraw cash from a network of thousands upon thousands of ATMs. With the current solution, that is not the case. ATM cash withdrawal is just unreasonably expensive -- around 6% plus a flat fee of a few dollars.

On a different note, I don't care for the thought cloud thing on the blog page. Looks cute. I don't know that cute and banking fit well. More practically, it makes it hard for me to scan/read, being a small window. Otherwise site looks good and url is great. Yes, I think you're right. I just haven't gotten around to changing it yet. That is terrific feedback! What do you think about the overall visual layout? Should I change it entirely?

There's so many design options to choose from. I could go for the standard Silicon Valley startup style: flat, one-page. Like this:

https://thegrid.io
https://www.magicleap.com

Or more like a bank:

https://necu.org/

A hybrid, some of each:

https://www.simple.com/

Or something completely different! Stripped-down black-and-white simplicity:

http://urbit.org/posts/

Bravo for this initiative. I'd be happy to help beta test. That's great. Thanks! And thanks for your very kind words and very constructive criticism.

#Onward Yes! And I love your signature! Press on! We will never surrender! The r3VOLution will never die.

ronpaulhawaii

05-11-2017, 05:32 PM

Yes. ATM fees is an unresolved issue. I would like people to be able to affordably withdraw cash from a network of thousands upon thousands of ATMs. With the current solution, that is not the case. ATM cash withdrawal is just unreasonably expensive -- around 6% plus a flat fee of a few dollars.

I'm wondering if it shouldn't be mentioned up front in the fees section. I imagine many will have the same question...

Yes, I think you're right. I just haven't gotten around to changing it yet. That is terrific feedback! What do you think about...

Of all of them I prefer

https://www.simple.com/ (https://www.simple.com/)

but I'm kinda old... I do imagine there is value in the format being familiar to people looking into your bank...

helmuth_hubener

05-12-2017, 09:19 AM

I'm wondering if it shouldn't be mentioned up front in the fees section. I imagine many will have the same question... It should be. Done!

Of all of them I prefer

https://www.simple.com/ (https://www.simple.com/)

but I'm kinda old... I do imagine there is value in the format being familiar to people looking into your bank... Thank you again. Excellent feedback!

specsaregood

05-12-2017, 10:01 AM

helmuth_hubener

05-12-2017, 10:08 AM

Maybe I missed it, but are you planning on adding the ability to ACCEPT Credit cards to fund the account. Or set one up as a business account instead of personal?
ie: sometimes customers want to pay me by credit card, I'd consider using this as a merchant account.

I had not considered this. But, with the technologies I'm tying into, it would be possible. Hmm.

Well, it's not going to be the first feature on the road-map to add, but perhaps down the road a while. It would be a nice feature.

H. E. Panqui

05-17-2017, 06:46 AM

Well, it seems like you, or whoever runs the vault, is the one holding the gold. Not me. I get what you're saying about how it works. And it isn't like But the issue is that the whole point of holding gold is that I hold it, in my hand. Or at least I have easy access to it.

And it still sounds like I'm left using dollars. You take my gold, convert it to dollars, that gets spent. I get what I bought, the company gets gold converted dollars (digital or physical), you get gold with whatever amount you take as user fees and such. That isn't a bad plan as far as economic go, except the dollar is controlled by madmen who are destroying it. That problem and its related problems of devaluation don't go away.

And no, I don't hate you. I hate some of the ideas you've espoused. But that is not the same as hating the person.

...i agree with pierzstyx...i was going to stay away from criticizing helmuth's republican-radio level of understanding about 'money' but helmuth just neg-repped me with a 'worthless'...;)...and i've been wanting to call helmuth out so i'll start by pointing out the fraudulent idiocy of the title of this thread....helmuth...AGAIN...there has NEVER been a 'sound money' system to 'return to'...i believe you'll find THE BANKSTERS HAVE ALWAYS CHEATED...i believe a return to your phony ludwig fantasy would reveal a system whereby the banksters merely mixed in a little gold to their mostly paper/bank credit system...just to keep the mullets confused...

...furthermore, a/?your stinking gold/metal system would be attended by much environmental destruction in order to undertake a mere 'increase in the money supply'...furthermore, the same goddamned monster$ who now control our miserable monetary order WILL SURELY control the gold/mines/etc.. and will STILL exercize their hideous, unjust control over the rest of us...

wizardwatson writes: I myself am convinced that taking the money power from the hands of a few and making it accessible and controlled an enlightened public is the most suitable course of action. It goes to the root of the problem. What other strategy gets to the root problems as completely?

...most/all people i meet are worse than butt-ignorant about 'the issuance of money'...PRIVATE BANKSTERS [not 'the government'] get to use 'our' money in 'the first round of spending' and this is the/an insurmountable advantage/privilege of your real ma$ter$...until you deal with this [and NO STINKING REPUBLICRAT IN MY LIFETIME HAS EVER EVEN PUBLICLY DISCUSSED THIS TRAGIC AND MONSTROUS ASPECT OF 'BANKING'] you will fail in any attempt to promote 'justice'...

...a simple 'strategy' would be to undertake and honest educational effort as to 'money'...getting 'a major microphone' into the hands of an honest monetary realist could affect rapid positive change...but 'the banksters' own the microphones...ugh...

helmuth_hubener

05-17-2017, 09:27 AM

helmuth just neg-repped me with a 'worthless' The post was worthless. Discouraging worthless posts and encouraging worthwhile ones is the purpose of the reputation system.

i've been wanting to call helmuth out Thank you. The rep worked like a charm. Having you, Zippyjuan, and satirical ("opposite day") accounts like JamesIV and TheTexan criticize my work as worthless and stupid is some of the best endorsement I could get.

I actually thought long ago that you personally, Hank, might actually like my creation and give me a bravo or two when it was released. That it might bring a smile to your face and be a little beam of light on the existence you otherwise see as so dreary and miserable. But your brain is too addled to understand it. Ahh, well.

I'll start by pointing out the fraudulent idiocy of the title of this thread....THE BANKSTERS HAVE ALWAYS CHEATED Great. Please feel free to change the title in your head to whatever you deem more appropriate.

...just to keep the mullets confused... Do people still have mullets? I haven't seen one in quite a while.

Perhaps just in your household?

If I wanted to keep people really confused, I would put you in charge of communications.

your stinking gold/metal system would be attended by much environmental destruction in order to undertake a mere 'increase in the money supply'Oh no. Not that. I must stop destroying Mother Gaia. Must.... Stop........ Too hard. Maybe next year.

...but 'the banksters' own the microphones...ugh... You know, Hank, if you would just stop tuning in to the Golden EIB Microphone for even just one week, just one day, I think you would find yourself a lot happier. That little button on the left side of the radio box is for "off."

Oh, and thanks for the feedback.

+rep!

helmuth_hubener

05-17-2017, 10:16 AM

I hope that my last post was not discouraging to you, Hank. I like you. I think I would possibly like you, were we to meet in person.

I have created a financial system with a 100% reserve. A system where no one is using your money first in the first round of spending. If you really think this system is a bad thing, explain why.

helmuth_hubener

05-17-2017, 05:01 PM

Several shared cloud servers are having an issue right now, so the Midas site is down for the moment.

Danke

05-17-2017, 05:18 PM

The post was worthless. Discouraging worthless posts and encouraging worthwhile ones is the purpose of the reputation system.

Thank you. The rep worked like a charm. Having you, Zippyjuan, and satirical ("opposite day") accounts like JamesIV and TheTexan criticize my work as worthless and stupid is some of the best endorsement I could get.

I actually thought long ago that you personally, Hank, might actually like my creation and give me a bravo or two when it was released. That it might bring a smile to your face and be a little beam of light on the existence you otherwise see as so dreary and miserable. But your brain is too addled to understand it. Ahh, well.

Great. Please feel free to change the title in your head to whatever you deem more appropriate.

Do people still have mullets? I haven't seen one in quite a while.

Perhaps just in your household?

If I wanted to keep people really confused, I would put you in charge of communications.

Oh no. Not that. I must stop destroying Mother Gaia. Must.... Stop........ Too hard. Maybe next year.

You know, Hank, if you would just stop tuning in to the Golden EIB Microphone for even just one week, just one day, I think you would find yourself a lot happier. That little button on the left side of the radio box is for "off."

Oh, and thanks for the feedback.

+rep!

perfect!

helmuth_hubener

05-18-2017, 09:47 AM

Several shared cloud servers are having an issue right now, so the Midas site is down for the moment.
Back up.

H. E. Panqui

05-21-2017, 06:09 AM

helmuth writes: "You know, Hank, if you would juststoptuningin to the Golden EIB Microphone for even just one week, just one day, I think you would find yourself a lot happier. That little button on the left side of the radio box is for "off."

:cool:

...hmmm...so, in essence, what you are saying is because i criticize the/?your stinking, stooooooooooooooooopid conservative radio-republicans, i must listen to them all the time...and what i ought to do is merely turn off the radio and stfu...right?..

...so if i ever hear anyone complaining about, say, 'fake news,' 'liberal media,' etc. ad nauseam, i should just tell them something like, 'you know, [you conservative republican critics of the liberal media], if you would just stop tuning in to [the fake news liberal media] for even just one week, just one day, i think you would find yourself a lot happier..that little button on the left side of the teevee box is for 'off'....

[a little hint for helmuth: i bet i listen to much MUCH less ruse limbaugh, etc., than the/?your fake news/liberal media bashing conservative fellows listen to msnbc, cnn, etc.!..]

...btw, were you my neighbor, i have little doubt we would get along famously!...(especially if you enjoy the best eggs, asparagus, apples, plums, icebox watermelons, etc.)

...after learning of your interest in politics, etc., i would ask you privately and politely, 'how come the banksters get government bonds [and nearly everything else] for nothing? [i ask this of every politico i meet]...hopefully your forehead wouldn't crinkle in puzzlement :confused: like approx. 99.5% of the politicos i meet!... ;)

helmuth_hubener

05-22-2017, 08:02 AM

...hmmm...so, in essence, what you are saying is because i criticize the/?your stinking, stooooooooooooooooopid conservative radio-republicans, i must listen to them all the time...and what i ought to do is merely turn off the radio and shut my trap...right?.. I am not demanding nor requesting that you shut your trap. I am noting that you are incorrigibly and impersuadably convinced that all or most of the denizens of RPF are

1. Regular listeners of conservative talk radio and the Republican Party
1^. Acolytes, nay, slavish devotees of conservative talk radio and the Republican Party
2. Total ignoramuses of the Secret Truths regarding banking into which you yourself have been initiated
2^. Total morons and hopeless idiots in toto

I am of the opinion that none of these assertions are correct. But, as I say, you are impermeable and immovable on them, and so the only solution is to simply ignore your bizarro-grammatical interjections (which is easy, because due to your bold declaration of independence from grammatical conformity, they are impenetrable anyway). Which is what all of RPF does 90 and upwards percent of the time, I guarantee you!

You deserve better than that, but it is what it is.

...btw, were you my neighbor, i have little doubt we would get along famously!...(especially if you enjoy the best eggs, asparagus, apples, plums, icebox watermelons, etc.) Yes, though the noodle runs on logic,
We can help it with a picnic!

...after learning of your interest in politics, etc., i would ask you privately and politely, 'how come the banksters get government bonds [and nearly everything else] for nothing? [i ask this of every politico i meet]...hopefully your forehead wouldn't crinkle in puzzlement :confused: like approx. 99.5% of the politicos i meet!... ;)And I would answer: because the system is a scam! The banksters are ripping everybody off.

Is that sufficiently close to the Correct Answer that I would pass muster with you?

Anyway, I have done something to try to address the problem and provide a solution. What I have done has shortcomings. Major ones! It is, in fact, really bad! It's not anywhere near as perfect and as polished and as capable as I would hope it to be, and I'm sure it falls even shorter of your standards. However it is something. Though not perfect, it is something. Likewise my monetary knowledge, though perhaps not as perfect as your own (and if you want to teach I am always willing to learn, by the way!) it is at least on roughly the same side as your own. At least the same ballpark.... as far as my puny brain can ascertain what ballpark in which you are playin'.

bunklocoempire

05-23-2017, 11:43 AM

TheNewYorker, Warrior_of_Freedom, osan, bunklocoempire? Suggestions?

Suggestions? It's been said already in this thread and daily in other threads. Hang with people and use exchange systems that dig and promote what you value.

I've found that people don't value the same things. :eek: Anyone else notice that?;)

Best wishes for your venture, will consider it and will share it with others who might be interested.

H. E. Panqui

05-24-2017, 06:32 AM

'fake news' from helmuth: "I am not demanding nor requesting that you shut your trap. I am noting that you are incorrigibly and impersuadably convinced that all or most of the denizens of RPF are

1. Regular listeners of conservative talk radio and the Republican Party
1^. Acolytes, nay, slavish devotees of conservative talk radio and the Republican Party.."

:rolleyes:

...not 'all' or even 'most,' helmuth!...maybe 20%...

...!my aching christ helmuth, your posts are filled with so many 'helmuthisms' i hardly know where to begin!...your advise to me and others to 'turn off the radio' [and 'the media' in general] is ripe, considering you are OBVIOUSLY a huge consumer of 'republicrat-level' media yourself...for example, i believe you have opined on these pages about donald trump, julian assange, etc. ad goddamned nauseam...how would YOU know anything about which to opine about donald trump, 'the economy,' etc. ad goddamned nauseam, without consuming the very 'media' you, hypocritically, urge others boycott? :confused:...[in other words, helmuth, your hypocritical and dishonest admonitions about 'media' are truly WORSE than my mere 'worthlessness'] ;)

...btw, helmuth, as to your debit-card initiative, what do you say to someone who might say, 'currently, i use 'credit' and pay nothing in fee$..in fact, i get decent reward$ for merely using their 'credit'!..can you offer me free use and reward$, helmuth?'...

...did you understand my post, helmuth?...hopefully this wasn't too 'impenetrable' and 'bizarro' for you...btw, let me know when i write something confusing to you, helmuth...i take for granted many people here have at least some basic, honest understandings of the hideous origin and nature of the 'money' at the very center of so many concerns...i sense you are not in possession of a clear, honest understanding of 'the [hideous] money thing'...i know the loud, dullard, radio-republicans you appear to defend are not in any $uch po$$e$$ion... ;)

...as one wag put it on the subject of 'money,' "in 'politics' there is not a more important subject with which one can concern themselves"...and i haven't seen where you have ever truly concerned yourself here on these pages..but i could be wrong..