Washington Kills 230 Civilians in Mosul Overnight - Where's the Outrage?

[AZJoe]

Washington Kills 230 civilians overnight in Mosul.
http://www.ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/peace-and-prosperity/2017/march/23/reports-us-airstrikes-killed-230-civilians-in-mosul-overnight/

"As the US airstrikes in the Iraqi city of Mosul are increasingly concentrated around densely populated neighborhoods in the city’s west, the death toll from those airstrikes in spiraling rapidly out of control, with the most recent figures out of the area suggesting around 230 civilians were killed overnight in US and coalition strikes (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/us-air-strikes-mosul-230-civilians-killed-dead-isis-held-iraq-battle-islamic-state-a7646011.html) in just a single neighborhood. ...

Britain’s Daily Telegraph reported (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/23/coalition-air-strikes-kill-100-civilians-one-building-mosul/) that the civilian death toll was mostly women and children, saying that the bulk of the bodies were pulled from just three adjoining residences in the Jadida neighborhood ...

[TheCount]

Knee-jerk Trumpers are already on the defense. Those weren't civilians, all terrorists, we're the best, etc:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?508896-Nunes-Trump-transition-members-were-under-surveillance-during-Obama-administration&p=6439513&viewfull=1#post6439513


I predict that mysteriously, some of the loudest opponents of Obama's drone programs will be silent on Trump's. Code Pink 2.0, I suppose.

[phill4paul]

“When you get these terrorists, you have to take out their families. They care about their lives, don’t kid yourself. When they say they don’t care about their lives, you have to take out their families.”

[CPUd]

I guess you all would have preferred Hillary and WWIII.

[TheCount]

I guess you all would have preferred Hillary and WWIII.

Anyone who won't support killing children loves nuclear war and wishes we were all dead.

[AZJoe]

Knee-jerk Trumpers are already on the defense. Those weren't civilians, all terrorists, we're the best, etc:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?508896-Nunes-Trump-transition-members-were-under-surveillance-during-Obama-administration&p=6439513&viewfull=1#post6439513

True, but that statement would have stronger effect if it were not coming from an apologist for all the Obama murders, regimes changes, invasions, lies.

[TheCount]

True, but that statement would have stronger effect if it were not coming from an apologist for all the Obama murders, regimes changes, invasions, lies.

Your statement would be better if it wasn't so hilariously stupid.

[enhanced_deficit]

Is this confirmed?
Not seeing this anywhere in Wash Post, CNN etc.

https://www.google.com/#q=iraq+mosul+civilians+site:washingtonpost.com+&*

In Mosul campaign, reported civilian deaths in U.S. strikes climb - The ...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/...mosul...civilian.../e4ca84e0-b33b-11e6-bc2d-19b3d...
Nov 25, 2016 - IRBIL, Iraq — Air and artillery strikes by the U.S.-led coalition in the Iraqi city of Mosul appear to have killed more than 80 civilians since a major ...



https://www.google.com/#q=iraq+mosul+civilians+site:cnn.com&*

No current news


Granted US MSM seems to be tied up with DGPbagcare repeal but still why such a big news if true is not being reported in US MSM ?

[undergroundrr]

Is this confirmed?
Not seeing this anywhere in Wash Post, CNN etc.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/us-air-strikes-mosul-230-civilians-killed-dead-isis-held-iraq-battle-islamic-state-a7646011.html
http://www.rudaw.net/english/middleeast/iraq/230320172
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/23/coalition-air-strikes-kill-100-civilians-one-building-mosul/

Hmmm... now why would the MSM be covering up trump's heinous civilian killings? Wouldn't they use this to take him down? They're against him aren't they?

The MSM did the same thing back in January.

826426103229272065

[silverhandorder]

It's terrible. Trump didn't start this war. He will end it by pulling out

[undergroundrr]

It's terrible. Trump didn't start this war. He will end it by pulling out

He's the commander-in-chief. He could have told every soldier to stand down, had every plane grounded, every drone mothballed on January 20.

That's the exact opposite of what happened.

[Zippyjuan]

It's terrible. Trump didn't start this war. He will end it by pulling out

Hmm. Didn't somebody say that eight years ago? Trump has said (and has acted) that he is less concerned about "collateral damages" from attacks.

[CPUd]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHLnP8VuoV4

[phill4paul]

Trump just masterminded the fall of Paul Ryan as speaker, kept Obamacare so that it will fail and the Dems will go down and has daily phone calls with Rand. He just hasn't gotten around to foreign intervention yet. Next he's going to work on lowering everyone's taxes. Then he's going to have to work on getting the wall built. After that then I would imagine infrastructure would be his focus. Give the guy a chance. He will take out ISIS in 30 days once he is free from other pressing matters.

[Zippyjuan]

Trump just masterminded the fall of Paul Ryan as speaker, kept Obamacare so that it will fail and the Dems will go down and has daily phone calls with Rand. He just hasn't gotten around to foreign intervention yet. Next he's going to work on lowering everyone's taxes. Then he's going to have to work on getting the wall built. After that then I would imagine infrastructure would be his focus. Give the guy a chance. He will take out ISIS in 30 days once he is free from other pressing matters.

I dunno about that. He already bombed Yemen (something Obama didn't do) and is increasing forces and actions in Syria. He is threatening Iran and North Korea and wants more money for defense and more forces in Iraq and Afghanistan.

[phill4paul]

I dunno about that. He already bombed Yemen (something Obama didn't do) and is increasing forces and actions in Syria. He is threatening Iran and North Korea and wants more money for defense and more forces in Iraq and Afghanistan.

All of that is Obama. Like I said, Trump hasn't gotten around to it yet. The C.I.A. and the Pentagon are just on Obamapilot. He talks with Rand twice a day and I'm sure there is a non-interventionist plan in the works. After he implements his 30 day destruction of Isis, of course. You can't build a shed in twenty minutes, and it took centuries to totally deconstruct Rome. Give him a chance.

[Zippyjuan]

All of that is Obama. Like I said, Trump hasn't gotten around to it yet. The C.I.A. and the Pentagon are just on Obamapilot. He talks with Rand twice a day and I'm sure there is a non-interventionist plan in the works. After he implements his 30 day destruction of Isis, of course. You can't build a shed in twenty minutes, and it took centuries to totally deconstruct Rome. Give him a chance.

30 days to destroy ISIS? The Iraq War was supposed to be shorter than that. Still there. Yes- he still has plenty of time to add to the mess in the Middle East. Killing people there isn't hard. It is what comes afterwards which is difficult- how to make it stable again. Iraq turned into such a mess because there was nothing in place when Saddam was removed. Ditto for Libya.

[phill4paul]

30 days to destroy ISIS? The Iraq War was supposed to be shorter than that. Still there. Yes- he still has plenty of time to add to the mess in the Middle East.

You really need to PM dannno. He'll lay it all out for you. If Trump said "30 days" he means thirty days. Once he can get to it. This is still Obama's war. Trump hasn't had the time to address this yet. I'm sure he would like to, but so many factions are causing him to concentrate elsewhere right now. He talks with Rand at least twice a day. Just give him a chance.

[Zippyjuan]

You really need to PM dannno. He'll lay it all out for you. If Trump said "30 days" he means thirty days. Once he can get to it. This is still Obama's war. Trump hasn't had the time to address this yet. I'm sure he would like to, but so many factions are causing him to concentrate elsewhere right now. He talks with Rand at least twice a day. Just give him a chance.

Just like he was going to repeal and replace Obamacare as soon as he took office. Trump is now Commander in Chief. Any US military actions are now his. Or if what you say is true, Trump is actually fighting not Obama's wars but Bush's wars since he was the one who started them and Obama only continued them.

He is going to have to send a lot more troops over if his goal is to take out ISIS in 30 days. We used to have about 100,000 in Afghanistan- now down to about 8,000. In Iraq- about 5,000- 6,000. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/nov/7/us-troop-numbers-in-iraq-syria-depend-on-isis-figh/


U.S. commanders continually assess the American footprint in Iraq as the siege of Mosul progresses and weigh changes to U.S. troop levels accordingly, said Mr. Cook. “The same kind of considerations have been made for Syria,” he said, noting that the 5,000 to 6,000 U.S. troops now deployed in both countries has been adequate thus far.
(that figure is for both Iraq and Syria combined)

[phill4paul]

Just like he was going to repeal and replace Obamacare as soon as he took office. Trump is now Commander in Chief. Any US military actions are now his. Or if what you say is true, Trump is actually fighting not Obama's wars but Bush's wars since he was the one who started them and Obama only continued them.

I suppose you could say that. It's not his war yet. He's given command to the C.I.A. and the Pentagon who are still operating under Bush's and Obama's plan. They are so secure in their role that don't even understand there is a new sheriff in town. Probably just another masterful chess game to show how ineffectual they are. Just like he is doing with Paul Ryan and all the RINO's. He talks with Rand twice a day. Give him a chance.

[Zippyjuan]

I suppose you could say that. It's not his war yet. He's given command to the C.I.A. and the Pentagon who are still operating under Bush's and Obama's plan. They are so secure in their role that don't even understand there is a new sheriff in town. Probably just another masterful chess game to show how ineffectual they are. Just like he is doing with Paul Ryan and all the RINO's. He talks with Rand twice a day. Give him a chance.

Actually his "30 days" was that he wanted a plan within 30 days- not that he could defeat ISIS in 30 days. https://www.rt.com/usa/375434-trump-isis-defeat-strategy/ And that 30 days is already up as of March 1st.

Yes- he has given more power to the CIA- especially over drone attacks- since they don't have to reveal anything about how many missions or how many casualties- enemy or civilian. He is already taken control over what the military does. He ordered the bombing of Yemen where Obama never bombed. He sent more troops into Syria and increased bombing there. Cannot claim Trump has nothing to do with the wars he is fighting in. He now "owns" them.

https://www.lawfareblog.com/us-deploys-more-troops-syria-trump-loosens-rules-counterterrorism-operations-and-turkey-feuds-europe


U.S. Deploys More Troops to Syria, Trump Loosens Rules for Counterterrorism Operations

http://www.latimes.com/world/middleeast/la-fg-trump-yemen-20170304-story.html


Trump steps up airstrikes against Al Qaeda in Yemen; more ground raids could follow

Only way to not own them is to start withdrawing- and he doesn't want to do that. He wants to amp them up.



He talks with Rand twice a day.

He does? Link?

[Occam's Banana]

If Trump said "30 days" he means thirty days.

No he doesn't. You just don't understand ...

He *really* meant 45 days but only said 30 days to fool ISIS so that after 31 days ISIS would be all like "Whew! Looks like Teh Donald was just talking smack. We can relax now, guys" and so they think the danger has passed and they let down their guard but then WHAMMO! fourteen days later Trump completely destroys them and they never even see it coming.

This is multi-super-hyper-dimensional Sun Tzu Art of Chess type stuff ...

[agitator]

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/ba/ba5807e7049f29330e09b11aed67c312cabd2115ba8c3baeff 1512cd196b4c72.jpg

[kcchiefs6465]

I dunno about that. He already bombed Yemen (something Obama didn't do) and is increasing forces and actions in Syria. He is threatening Iran and North Korea and wants more money for defense and more forces in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Obama didn't bomb Yemen?

You must be forgetting about the Al Majalah Cruise Missile strike that killed 40+ civilians.

You know, the one that Obama had journalist Abdulelah Haider Shaye sentenced to years in prison for exposing.

Not to mention the countless other strikes.

[phill4paul]

He does? Link?

PM dannno for the details.

[enhanced_deficit]

Without knowing the facts, don't want to rush to judgment like the Nobel Peace Prize committee that awarded Peace prize to last DGP before the facts had come in ... but IF this report is confirmed, Trump would deserve Nobel Peace Prize in hypocrisy if he will be acting no different than SWCs Bush and DGP considering his earlier statements:

Trump just called Obama a bigger warmonger than Bush (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?279592-Trump-just-called-Obama-a-bigger-warmonger-than-Bush&)


Trump tells Bush: 'You're fired'
July 13, 2004 - 11:22AM
http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2004/07/13/donald_trump,0.jpg
Donald Trump.
The billionaire host of NBC's The Apprentice has weighed in on the Bush administration's decision to invade Iraq, terming it a "brutal mistake" that would "make it very hard for Bush to get re-elected".
"Look, the war is a disaster. The war should not have been entered into," he told The Dallas Morning News while his fiancee, Melania Knauss, looked on.

"To lose all of those thousands and thousands of people, on our side and their side. I mean, you have Iraqi kids, not only our soldiers, walking around with no legs, no arms, no faces. All for no reason. It is a disgrace."


From: Trump: Families Of Soldiers Killed In Iraq Should Sue NYT For WMD Reporting, US made Iraq mess (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?486352-Trump-Families-Of-Soldiers-Killed-In-Iraq-Should-Sue-NYT-For-WMD-Reporting-US-made-Iraq-mess&)







Is this confirmed?
Not seeing this anywhere in Wash Post, CNN etc.

https://www.google.com/#q=iraq+mosul+civilians+site:washingtonpost.com+&*

In Mosul campaign, reported civilian deaths in U.S. strikes climb - The ...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/...mosul...civilian.../e4ca84e0-b33b-11e6-bc2d-19b3d...
Nov 25, 2016 - IRBIL, Iraq — Air and artillery strikes by the U.S.-led coalition in the Iraqi city of Mosul appear to have killed more than 80 civilians since a major ...

https://www.google.com/#q=iraq+mosul+civilians+site:cnn.com&*

No current news

Granted US MSM seems to be tied up with DGPbagcare repeal but still why such a big news if true is not being reported in US MSM ?


iraq mosul civilians site:nbcnews.com

iraq mosul civilians site:cbsnews.com

iraq mosul civilians site:abcnews.com

No reporting.






Hmmm... now why would the MSM be covering up trump's heinous civilian killings? Wouldn't they use this to take him down? They're against him aren't they?



That is a very good question.
Not only just CNN, WaPo neocons are not reporting this, it is not being reported by NBC , CBS, ABC news either... why all left wing neocons leaning outlets would not be rushing with headlines that put Trump in bad light?

Not sure if this is valid reason but might be plausible reason, could they be trying to avoid further tainting of DGP's legacy for fear that Trump people would try to blame this mess on DGP's masters?


Donald Trump inherits Obama's mess: U.S. troops in Iraq are ...
www.theblaze.com/.../donald-trump-inherits-obamas-mess-u-s-troops-in-iraq-are-adv (http://www.theblaze.com/.../donald-trump-inherits-obamas-mess-u-s-troops-in-iraq-are-adv)...
Dec 28, 2016 - In a phrase that defies logic, Reuters reports that American ground troops are preparing to advance to the front lines in Mosul in a new phase of ...

Mission to take Mosul will test Obama's controversial plan to fight ISIS ...
www.pbs.org/.../mission-take-mosul-will-test-obamas-plan-fight-isis-without-u-s-force (http://www.pbs.org/.../mission-take-mosul-will-test-obamas-plan-fight-isis-without-u-s-force)...
Oct 17, 2016 - Children cheer as a Peshmerga military convoy rolls towards eastern Mosul. Photo by Emrah Yorulmaz/Getty Images. WASHINGTON — More ...

Obama hoping for quick Mosul victory to validate ISIS strategy, boost ...
www.washingtontimes.com/.../obama-hoping-for-quick-mosul-victory-to-validate-i/ (http://www.washingtontimes.com/.../obama-hoping-for-quick-mosul-victory-to-validate-i/)
Oct 23, 2016 - With the fight for Mosul entering its second week, the Obama administration is under pressure to declare victory over the Islamic State, a win the ...

How Mosul could redefine a key part of Obama's legacy (+video ...
www.csmonitor.com/.../How-Mosul-could-redefine-a-key-part-of-Obama-s-legacy-vi (http://www.csmonitor.com/.../How-Mosul-could-redefine-a-key-part-of-Obama-s-legacy-vi)...
Oct 19, 2016 - The battle to free Mosul from the Islamic State is a test of America's evolving approach to fighting terrorism abroad, as well as US credibility in ...

Successful Mosul offensive would bolster Obama's legacy on Isis
https://www.ft.com/content/ff9ffd36-9482-11e6-a1dc-bdf38d484582
Oct 17, 2016 - The launch of the battle for Mosul presents the Obama administration with the tantalising prospect of a crushing defeat of Isis in Iraq before it ...

The War for Mosul Could Mend Obama's Troubled Iraq Legacy ...
https://www.bloomberg.com/.../the-war-for-mosul-could-mend-obama-s-troubled-ira...
Nov 1, 2016 - The War for Mosul Could Mend Obama's Troubled Iraq Legacy. What the next president can learn from the recent approach to fighting the ...




Team Obama keeps laying new land mines for Trump (http://nypost.com/2017/01/16/team-obama-keeps-laying-new-landmines-for-trump/)


https://i.ytimg.com/vi/z03nKTsIsHg/maxresdefault.jpg

[AngryCanadian]

Apparently MSM only seems to care when supposed Russia does the killing. According to the MSM the US/EU are the "good guys narrative"

[AZJoe]

Obama didn't bomb Yemen?
You must be forgetting about the Al Majalah Cruise Missile strike that killed 40+ civilians.
You know, the one that Obama had journalist Abdulelah Haider Shaye sentenced to years in prison for exposing.
Not to mention the countless other strikes.

Don't forget Obama's drone assassinations in Yemen like the 16 year old American citizen. Or Obama's cluster bombing (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/yemen/7806882/US-cluster-bombs-killed-35-women-and-children.html) of women and children in Yemen.
https://prod01-cdn07.cdn.firstlook.org/wp-uploads/sites/1/2017/01/abdulrahman-1485778045-216x300.png

[kcchiefs6465]

Don't forget Obama's drone assassinations in Yemen like the 16 year old American citizen. Or Obama's cluster bombing (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/yemen/7806882/US-cluster-bombs-killed-35-women-and-children.html) of women and children in Yemen.
https://prod01-cdn07.cdn.firstlook.org/wp-uploads/sites/1/2017/01/abdulrahman-1485778045-216x300.png
Yes, that Obama didn't bomb Yemen is absurd. Some of Obama's worst war crimes were in Yemen.

Zippy's propaganda is getting sloppy.

[pcosmar]

I dunno about that. He already bombed Yemen (something Obama didn't do)

What makes you say that?


:confused:






























Who pays you to say that? or are you naturally that phucking stupid?

[undergroundrr]

2 days later, US media is starting to do tentative little stories about this.

[undergroundrr]

EDIT: Made a new thread -

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?508997-trump-Campaign-Promise-Fulfilled-Killing-lots-of-families&p=6440364#post6440364

[Brian4Liberty]

Apparently MSM only seems to care when supposed Russia does the killing. According to the MSM the US/EU are the "good guys narrative"

The establishment MIC media has their priorities. No time to talk about expanding, undeclared wars. More important to cover a tweet from Trump about Obama 24x7 for a month.

[Zippyjuan]

What makes you say that?


:confused:

Who pays you to say that? or are you naturally that phucking stupid?

http://www.ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/peace-and-prosperity/2017/march/09/bomb-the-shstart-out-of-them-trump-drones-yemen-more-in-one-week-than-obama-in-a-year/


Undeterred by the disastrous commando raid on Yemen in the first days of his Administration, where plenty of civilians were killed but the target got away, President Donald Trump has escalated US military involvement in the tragic Yemen conflict to an unprecedented level. In fact as Foreign Policy reports, the US President has bombed Yemen more in the past week than President Obama (no peacenik) has bombed in a year.

But although the US escalation in Yemen is sold back home as another aggressive front in the war against al-Qaeda, in fact US operations in Yemen are actually helping al-Qaeda as well as its chief sponsor, Saudi Arabia.

The problem is that because his advisors are increasingly drawn from the neocon camp, the advice he is given is filtered through the "noble lie" that the neocons view as the central tenet of their faith. Thus even though the main enemies of al-Qaeda in Yemen are the Houthis, because Trump has been sold the neocon lie that the Houthis are Iranian proxies Trump is droning Yemen back to the stone age to the advantage of al-Qaeda and Saudi Arabia, who are on the same side.

While it is arguable that the President has authority under the authorization for the use of military force against those attacked us on 9/11 to attack al-Qaeda in Yemen, very few would argue that such authorization extends to actually helping al-Qaeda in Yemen.

Meanwhile, US drone attacks are killing civilians in Yemen and contributing to the genocide of the Yemeni people whose only crime is to have rejected a president who ran unopposed -- a US-backed "Arab Spring" candidate -- and who immediately approved US drone strikes on his own country.

The Trump State Department is going all in. A sale of anti-Houthi weapons to Saudi Arabia that even the Obama administration rejected was hastily approved by the new Administration and soon will be deployed in Saudi Arabia's war of aggression against its neighbor.

The Trump Administration is doubling down on all of President Obama's mistakes. Siding with al-Qaeda in Yemen on the false notion that it is fighting a proxy war against Iran.

[jmdrake]

It's terrible. Trump didn't start this war. He will end it by pulling out

Ummmm......but we had already pulled out. And Trump, who falsely claimed to have been against the Iraq war from the beginning, jumped on the stupid GOP "ISIS is because Obama pulled out of Iraq too soon" bandwagon. The Iraq/Iran coalition already had ISIS on the run before Trump took office. In fact the Iraqi army had made major gains in Mosul back at the beginning of the month but they have now suspended Mosul operations in the wake of civilian losses.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/27/middleeast/iraq-army-seizes-key-mosul-bridge/

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/25/iraq-suspends-mosul-offensive-after-coalition-airstrike-atrocity

Soooo.....what's the plan again?

[jmdrake]

I dunno about that. He already bombed Yemen (something Obama didn't do) and is increasing forces and actions in Syria. He is threatening Iran and North Korea and wants more money for defense and more forces in Iraq and Afghanistan.


What makes you say that?


:confused:


Who pays you to say that? or are you naturally that phucking stupid?


http://www.ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/peace-and-prosperity/2017/march/09/bomb-the-shstart-out-of-them-trump-drones-yemen-more-in-one-week-than-obama-in-a-year/

Undeterred by the disastrous commando raid on Yemen in the first days of his Administration, where plenty of civilians were killed but the target got away, President Donald Trump has escalated US military involvement in the tragic Yemen conflict to an unprecedented level. In fact as Foreign Policy reports, the US President has bombed Yemen more in the past week than President Obama (no peacenik) has bombed in a year.



Zippy, you realize your own source proves you wrong right? You said Obama didn't bomb Yemen. But your source said Trump bombed Yemen more than Obama bombed Yemen which proves that Obama bombed Yemen.

[CPUd]

845258614092840961
https://twitter.com/airwars/status/845258614092840961


http://i.imgur.com/xstye3C.png
https://airwars.org/

[chudrockz]

Zippy, you realize your own source proves you wrong right? You said Obama didn't bomb Yemen. But your source said Trump bombed Yemen more than Obama bombed Yemen which proves that Obama bombed Yemen.

He is really slipping. His employer's probably got him in the corner for a timeout.

[enhanced_deficit]

UK press is reporting that Mosul operation been suspended. Policies conducted under Trump's command wil be his responsibility even if he inherited a horrible mideast mess from Obama.
US media neocons silence so far has been stunning... is this part of DGP legacy (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?508958-Washington-Kills-230-Civilians-in-Mosul-Overnight-Where-s-the-Outrage&p=6440229&viewfull=1#post6440229) defense tactic by media owners or something else is the reason for media blackout so far?

Iraq suspends Mosul offensive after coalition airstrike atrocity

Move comes as international outrage grows over airstrikes that killed at least 150 people in Mosul Jadida neighbourhood


(https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/25/iraq-suspends-mosul-offensive-after-coalition-airstrike-atrocity#img-1) Resident of Mosul Jadida retrieve bodies from the rubble following the coalition airstrikes. Photograph: Felipe Dana/AP
artin Chulov in Mosul, and Emma Graham-Harrison
Saturday 25 March 2017

Iraqi military leaders have halted their push to recapture west Mosul from Islamic State as international outrage grew over the civilian toll from airstrikes that killed at least 150 people in a single district of the city.

The attack on the Mosul Jadida neighbourhood is thought to have been one of the deadliest bombing raids for civilians since the US invasion of Iraq in 2003. Rescuers were still pulling bodies from the rubble on Saturday, more than a week after the bombs landed, when the US-led coalition confirmed that its aircraft had targeted Isis fighters in the area.
They carried out the attack on 17 March “at the request of the Iraqi security forces”, and have now launched a formal investigation into reports of civilian casualties, the coalition said.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/25/iraq-suspends-mosul-offensive-after-coalition-airstrike-atrocity





http://www.ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/peace-and-prosperity/2017/march/09/bomb-the-shstart-out-of-them-trump-drones-yemen-more-in-one-week-than-obama-in-a-year/

But although the US escalation in Yemen is sold back home as another aggressive front in the war against al-Qaeda, in fact US operations in Yemen are actually helping al-Qaeda as well as its chief sponsor, Saudi Arabia.



http://www.headlinepolitics.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/obama-bows-saudi-king.jpg

Some had suggested during recent years of ISIS birthing/cultivation and bloodbath campaigns in Syria/Iraq/Libya/Yemen etc that DGP's masters included wealthy mideast dictators among domestic masters.
Do you agree with such assertions?

[ChristianAnarchist]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHLnP8VuoV4

Those were the days... Someone with honest integrity who wasn't afraid to tell the truth and the liars in D.C. and the bought press did everything to shoot the messenger... If his message was actually covered fairly I believe the people would have voted the good Dr. into the white house and by now we would have peace and prosperity!

[AZJoe]

https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/p480x480/17458115_769743716483999_4622671441129882035_n.jpg ?oh=8018453ce1b8fe35693b8723ee7a72d2&oe=5958C9FE

[AZJoe]

https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/17457519_1913159235571001_8953800786202048177_n.jp g?oh=7750af9991c4918d3f5b1c5a17270631&oe=595D1B2B

[enhanced_deficit]

Coalition air strikes 'kill more than 200 people' in Mosul

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/content/dam/news/2017/03/15/JS123240194_AFP_An-Iraqi-woman-and-her-daughter-stand-on-small_trans_NvBQzQNjv4BqOTom2IDArMR5JububTrAx0VINf Ka4zCDQ_zFkNoTnRU.jpg An Iraqi woman and her daughter stand on a street holding a white flag as Iraqi security forces secure Mosul's Dawasa neighbouhood Credit: AFP



Josie Ensor, Beirut


23 March 2017 • 2:07pm More than 200 civilians are reported to have been killed in a single US-led coalition raid on Mosul, as the United Nations warns the worst was yet to come for those still trapped in the Iraqi city.
Some 230 bodies of mostly women and children were pulled from three adjoining houses in the Jadida neighbourhood of west Mosul overnight Wednesday and into Thursday morning, according to witnesses.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/23/coalition-air-strikes-kill-100-civilians-one-building-mosul/






https://scontent-lax3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/p480x480/17458115_769743716483999_4622671441129882035_n.jpg ?oh=8018453ce1b8fe35693b8723ee7a72d2&oe=5958C9FE



Was there any connection between US Media's blackout of 200 civilians deaths in Iraq and this claim of ISIS terrorists in UK media?





‘BLOOD FOR BLOOD’
Parliament terror attack celebrated by ISIS as revenge for airstrikes in Mosul

Sick fanatics took to social media to celebrate the terror attack on the Capital

By Olivia Loveridge-Greene and Patrick Knox
22nd March 2017, 5:28 pm

ISIS supporters have taken to social media to celebrate the terror attack on Westminster which has left four people dead and many more “catastrophically” injured.
The terror fanatics dubbed the Nice and Berlin copycat attack “revenge” for the UK strikes in Mosul, Iraq calling it “blood for blood”.


'She was horrified'

https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/hd-composite-may-car-v2.jpg?strip=all&quality=100&w=300&h=192&crop=1 (https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3165551/moment-theresa-may-is-bundled-into-car-as-shots-are-heard-during-london-terror-attack/)

GET IN THE CAR, PM!
Moment Theresa May runs the WRONG way before being bundled into car by armed security team



https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3153391/isis-supporters-gleefully-celebrate-parliament-terror-attack-that-left-two-dead-as-revenge-for-airstrikes-in-mosul/




Related

Obama Hides His Iraq War (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?493859-Obama-Hides-His-Iraq-War&)


London Parliament Attack: Media Coverage Triggers Criticism in Britain
by Saphora Smith

LONDON — The near-blanket coverage of the car-and-knife attack on the British Parliament has triggered questions about whether the vast amount of reporting actually helps the terrorists' cause.
In "sensationalizing and dramatizing a crime" committed by a possibly deranged person, the British media had become "a megaphone for the act," said Simon Jenkins, a former editor of The Times of London.
"No one is supposing we shouldn't cover this outrage but editors have a decision about how much prominence you give it and it's grossly disproportionate," he told NBC News.
https://media4.s-nbcnews.com/j/newscms/2017_12/1943246/170324-media-coverage-london-ks-03_9b00b9f6dade9d624dac29032b1edbe2.nbcnews-ux-600-480.jpg (https://media4.s-nbcnews.com/j/newscms/2017_12/1943246/170324-media-coverage-london-ks-03_9b00b9f6dade9d624dac29032b1edbe2.nbcnews-ux-2880-1000.jpg) The front pages of U.K. daily newspapers reporting on the March 22 terror attack in central London Daniel Sorabji / AFP - Getty Images
The London attacker Khalid Masood — born Adrian Russell Ajao — killed an American tourist, a police officer and two others outside of the Houses of Parliament on Wednesday. Police said on Friday they were looking into how he was radicalized.
By covering the crime "as if 9/11 has come to London is ridiculous," Jenkins said, adding that the media had essentially become "an accomplice" of terrorists by giving them the publicity.

[silverhandorder]

Ummmm......but we had already pulled out. And Trump, who falsely claimed to have been against the Iraq war from the beginning, jumped on the stupid GOP "ISIS is because Obama pulled out of Iraq too soon" bandwagon. The Iraq/Iran coalition already had ISIS on the run before Trump took office. In fact the Iraqi army had made major gains in Mosul back at the beginning of the month but they have now suspended Mosul operations in the wake of civilian losses.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/27/middleeast/iraq-army-seizes-key-mosul-bridge/

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/mar/25/iraq-suspends-mosul-offensive-after-coalition-airstrike-atrocity

Soooo.....what's the plan again?

Stop reading propaganda. We were in Syria covertly.

And all of a sudden us kiling civilians is also not incidental. We adopted Russian strategy of prioritizing success over collateral dmg. For better or worse this will bring the war to a quicker end.

[undergroundrr]

We adopted Russian strategy of prioritizing success over collateral dmg. For better or worse this will bring the war to a quicker end.

Au contraire. Leaving aside the Stalinist war criminal baby killer aspect for a moment, it will send terrorist recruitment through the roof and ensure perpetual ME war for trump's MIC handlers. The nicest thing one could say about trump is that he's too ignorant of history and human nature to understand this. A Ron Paul supporter should recognize this dynamic immediately, not pop off neocon shill cakewalk nonsense.

[merkelstan]

Not too easy for US military. ISIS is dug-in to a still-populated city, with tunnels n stuff, moving around house to house.

So wat do? Send in ground forces, knocking house to house 'r u terririst'?' Or ensure the safety of your own men and do your best to killum from the air?

[EDIT] I am not military trained and do not know anything about this stuff.

[enhanced_deficit]

Iraqi government's conflicting claim in news today:

Iraq gov claim implicates 'Obama founded' group in civilians deaths in Mosul Iraq (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?509026-Iraq-gov-claim-implicates-Obama-founded-group-in-civilians-deaths-in-Mosul-Iraq&)


But Mosul would more likely become a bigger quagmire now than it was last week.

[silverhandorder]

Au contraire. Leaving aside the Stalinist war criminal baby killer aspect for a moment, it will send terrorist recruitment through the roof and ensure perpetual ME war for trump's MIC handlers. The nicest thing one could say about trump is that he's too ignorant of history and human nature to understand this. A Ron Paul supporter should recognize this dynamic immediately, not pop off neocon shill cakewalk nonsense.

I recognize it is better to never be there in the first place. Also they have no problem with recruitment either way. There are a lot of factors. Making human shields an obsolete tactic has its bonuses too. Also human shields might start fighting captors if they know Americans don't care and will bomb.

[CPUd]

500 killed in probable US Mosul airstrike: civil defence

The number of victims in the recent Mosul air raids has risen to 511 people, including 187 children under the age of 15, Iraqi officials have said.
The strikes in western Mosul where US-backed troops are fighting the Islamic State group are currently under investigation by Iraqi authorities.

"We don't know where more bodies will turn up as some have been blasted hundreds of metres from the location of the airstrike," Laith Sattar of the civil defence force told The New Arab.

"Until now the number of victims has reached 511. Around 200 of the bodies remain unidentified because of the severity of the blast has totally destroyed their facial features," he said.

Sattar said that the attack was the deadliest bombing raids for civilians since the US invasion of Iraq in 2003.

"A team of international investigators arrived at the site early on Sunday," he added.

An Iraqi military official told The New Arab that whoever carried out the attack may have used internationally banned weapons.

"Six of these bombs destroyed the targeted street and three adjacent alleys. The charred state of the dead bodies and fused iron and deep craters left by the bombs could not have been from normal weaponry," the official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, claimed.

The Iraqi speaker of parliament, Salim al-Jubouri, expressed concern on Saturday about the air raid.

"What's happening in west Mosul is extremely serious, security agencies must investigate the reason why hundreds of innocent civilians have been killed," Jubouri tweeted.

It was unclear who carried out the airstrikes, but on Friday the US-led coalition against IS said it was investigating the allegations.

The coalition, which has been bombing the extremists for more than two and a half years, said it had struck a location in west Mosul where civilians were reportedly killed.

"An initial review of strike data... indicates that, at the request of the Iraqi security forces, the coalition struck [IS] fighters and equipment, March 17, in west Mosul at the location corresponding to allegations of civilian casualties," it said in a statement.
https://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/news/2017/3/26/500-killed-in-probable-us-mosul-airstrike-civil-defence

[enhanced_deficit]

I recognize it is better to never be there in the first place. Also they have no problem with recruitment either way. There are a lot of factors. Making human shields an obsolete tactic has its bonuses too. Also human shields might start fighting captors if they know Americans don't care and will bomb.

Tactics of Russia/Israel would not work for US given the history of Iraq war and US role there/recent popular insurgency in Iraq against a "foreign invader", deep US interests embedded throughout Arab world and relatively much bigger exposure around the world, very different US demographics & societies. Unlike Israel/Russia , US is still nota closed state despite great progress made towards being a security centric police state in the past decade following 9/11/mideast wars launch.

Looking at recent foreign policy history and resultimg changes in US/UK, an argument could be made that all recent major political/cultural/systemic changes in the US (from 9/11 to US Iraq invasion, gradual phase out of civil liberties, intrusive TSA checkpoits , growing mass surveillance Police State, election of America's "first muslim President", Obamacare, election of first muslim mayor of London etc) were all directly linked to "heavy collateral damage" policies like US military support for "deterrent" bombings of Palestinians and US bombing of Iraqi civilains shelter in Iraq in 199Os Iraq war. A bombed Iraq civilians shelter museum was reportedly visited by some of 9/11 hijackers and some US 9/11 families had visited that shelter as an expression of finding solidarity with innocent Iraqi victims of violence.


9-11 FAMILIES IN IRAQ Visit bombed shelter on 6-day peace mission

BY Greg Gittrich
Thursday, January 9, 2003

As U.S. troops massed in the region, relatives of victims of the Sept. 11 attacks visited a Baghdad shelter bombed during the Gulf War and sang songs of peace with Iraqi children yesterday. "Suffering is universal," said Kristina Olsen, 44, a nurse from Massachusetts whose sister was aboard one of the hijacked jets that exploded into the World Trade Center. "It connects us, and we've bonded together in that suffering.

http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/news/9-11-families-iraq-visit-bombed-shelter-6-day-peace-mission-article-1.659672



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIiH9OuH6gI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIiH9OuH6gI




US public mood swings to extremes from patriotic love of Bush's Iraq invasion in 2003 to a radiacl shift in 2008 with election of an "anti war" son of a black Muslim man to the White House. Instead of capitulation from fringe extreme groups that many see as US creation, more likely possible scenarios from repeat of large civilian collateral damage/blowbacks cycle of the past could be:

A- US becoming a fully security centric Police State like Israel, with racial profilings and threats fear driven world view
B- A sharp "appeasement/apology" U-turn again during next couple of election cycles with extreme actions like election of a mideast heredity President having first name "Hussein" and last name "Sadiq Khan".
C- Some mix of A / B


Just quick probable outcomes projection that I concede is backward looking but based on actual history.

[phill4paul]

Stop reading propaganda. We were in Syria covertly.

And all of a sudden us kiling civilians is also not incidental. We adopted Russian strategy of prioritizing success over collateral dmg. For better or worse this will bring the war to a quicker end.

Why keep pussy footing around? Neutron bombs were invented for clearing the riff raff while keeping the infrastructure intact.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/f2/68/d2/f268d26099236c678ebde6f3f48fa53a.jpg

[enhanced_deficit]

Would be curious to see how many would see "Jesus" type figure in mid transition of this cloud if this graphic is used as an ink blot test.

But p-word footing is very necessary now; today's US demographics and civilians civil rights culture are radically different from those of 1940s era and mideast is not an isolated Island like Japan.. even if both regions shared some traits like "kamikaze" tactics.



https://www.nap.edu/openbook/030906838X/xhtml/images/p200047d1g44001.jpg

[silverhandorder]

Why keep pussy footing around? Neutron bombs were invented for clearing the riff raff while keeping the infrastructure intact.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/f2/68/d2/f268d26099236c678ebde6f3f48fa53a.jpg

We will get to that. We have not seen the last of nukes.

[silverhandorder]

Tactics of Russia/Israel would not work for US given the history of Iraq war and US role there/recent popular insurgency in Iraq against a "foreign invader", deep US interests embedded throughout Arab world and relatively much bigger exposure around the world, very different US demographics & societies. Unlike Israel/Russia , US is still nota closed state despite great progress made towards being a security centric police state in the past decade following 9/11/mideast wars launch.

Looking at recent foreign policy history and resultimg changes in US/UK, an argument could be made that all recent major political/cultural/systemic changes in the US (from 9/11 to US Iraq invasion, gradual phase out of civil liberties, intrusive TSA checkpoits , growing mass surveillance Police State, election of America's "first muslim President", Obamacare, election of first muslim mayor of London etc) were all directly linked to "heavy collateral damage" policies like US military support for "deterrent" bombings of Palestinians and US bombing of Iraqi civilains shelter in Iraq in 199Os Iraq war. A bombed Iraq civilians shelter museum was reportedly visited by some of 9/11 hijackers and some US 9/11 families had visited that shelter as an expression of finding solidarity with innocent Iraqi victims of violence.


9-11 FAMILIES IN IRAQ Visit bombed shelter on 6-day peace mission

BY Greg Gittrich
Thursday, January 9, 2003

As U.S. troops massed in the region, relatives of victims of the Sept. 11 attacks visited a Baghdad shelter bombed during the Gulf War and sang songs of peace with Iraqi children yesterday. "Suffering is universal," said Kristina Olsen, 44, a nurse from Massachusetts whose sister was aboard one of the hijacked jets that exploded into the World Trade Center. "It connects us, and we've bonded together in that suffering.

http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/news/9-11-families-iraq-visit-bombed-shelter-6-day-peace-mission-article-1.659672



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIiH9OuH6gI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIiH9OuH6gI




US public mood swings to extremes from patriotic love of Bush's Iraq invasion in 2003 to a radiacl shift in 2008 with election of an "anti war" son of a black Muslim man to the White House. Instead of capitulation from fringe extreme groups that many see as US creation, more likely possible scenarios from repeat of large civilian collateral damage/blowbacks cycle of the past could be:

A- US becoming a fully security centric Police State like Israel, with racial profilings and threats fear driven world view
B- A sharp "appeasement/apology" U-turn again during next couple of election cycles with extreme actions like election of a mideast heredity President having first name "Hussein" and last name "Sadiq Khan".
C- Some mix of A / B


Just quick probable outcomes projection that I concede is backward looking but based on actual history.

At some point it will be one terrorist attack too many. And then we will start really fighting.

We shouldn't fight. But this is what will happen. A. We go bankrupt. or B. We will bomb the shit out of anything that moves.

[H. E. Panqui]

At some point it will be one terrorist attack too many. And then we will start really fighting.

...:rolleyes:

...anyone not a brainwashed goddamned republicrat fool knows that your stinking republicrats are the world champion 'terrorists'...get a grip...and a dictionary, republican-radio parrot..

[jmdrake]

Stop reading propaganda. We were in Syria covertly.

Stop lying. I never said we were not in Syria covertly. I said we pulled out of Iraq.



And all of a sudden us kiling civilians is also not incidental. We adopted Russian strategy of prioritizing success over collateral dmg. For better or worse this will bring the war to a quicker end.

Except the Iraq army already had ISIS on the run in Iraq and had now suspended its Mosul operations due to the bombing. Who cares how long it takes the Iraqi army to win as long as they are winning? You're starting to sound like Janet Reno. "Oh it's taking too long in Waco. We need to take out the Davidians for the children."

[jmdrake]

At some point it will be one terrorist attack too many. And then we will start really fighting.

We shouldn't fight. But this is what will happen. A. We go bankrupt. or B. We will bomb the $#@! out of anything that moves.

And the reason we are bombing civilians in Iraq is because......?

[Occam's Banana]

So wat do? Send in ground forces, knocking house to house 'r u terririst'?' Or ensure the safety of your own men and do your best to killum from the air?

"Just come home. We just marched in, we can just come home ..."

[silverhandorder]

...:rolleyes:

...anyone not a brainwashed goddamned republicrat fool knows that your stinking republicrats are the world champion 'terrorists'...get a grip...and a dictionary, republican-radio parrot..
Oh God get out of your loser mindset. Define it as you like. You triggered on definition of terrorism.

Stop lying. I never said we were not in Syria covertly. I said we pulled out of Iraq.

Except the Iraq army already had ISIS on the run in Iraq and had now suspended its Mosul operations due to the bombing. Who cares how long it takes the Iraqi army to win as long as they are winning? You're starting to sound like Janet Reno. "Oh it's taking too long in Waco. We need to take out the Davidians for the children."

Extrapolate that to Iraq. We are much more involved, then Obama was letting on.

The fighting was suspended because Russia decided to pay us back and spammed everyone with civilian deaths. We did it to them too. Did you think Syrian regime just suspended their operations around Allepo when news was filled with news of civilian deaths there?


And the reason we are bombing civilians in Iraq is because......?

They are human shields. They are protecting military objectives. We been bombing civilians before, especially when operation began.

This is not an endorsement of war. But if you fighting do it right.

[osan]

Knee-jerk Trumpers are already on the defense. Those weren't civilians, all terrorists, we're the best, etc:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?508896-Nunes-Trump-transition-members-were-under-surveillance-during-Obama-administration&p=6439513&viewfull=1#post6439513


I predict that mysteriously, some of the loudest opponents of Obama's drone programs will be silent on Trump's. Code Pink 2.0, I suppose.

You may be correct, but what if they were?

How does one tell civilians from the rest? Is there a formula? Perhaps the drones have new Insta-Cog(tm) software?

Is Trump throwing good money after bad? Or is he being faithful to the admittedly rotten commitment made by the "USA" in the region? After all, things were stable prior to our interference. Have we no obligation to right the wrongs we've made? Just asking questions, mind you. No implicit value judgments here.

But there IS something educational in all this. Bush^1 and Clinton went in, each semi-erect. Bush^2 went in with a fair to raging erection. Obama can't get it up, as he is gay and making believe he is straight, but remained in any event. Now Trump appears to be doubling down on the old mistake.

So now ask yourselves this: if presumably intelligent adults have not seen the light, then what is wrong with the picture? Twenty six years of unending war and nobody is pulling out? Something is verily amiss here. But what? Trump is not an idiot. Obama... not so sure, but lets give him the benefit of doubt. GWB: Hate him if you want (I certainly don't care for the man), but he's not quite an imbecile. Clinton may be scum, but he's smart scum. Bush^1 was no piker, either. So why, pray tell, have all these men kept us in this state of perpetual war for going on three decades?

I have no definite answer, but only my usual speculations. There IS an answer to this, but what is it? What is the actual, no guessing, no bullshit, no lies truth of it?

[H. E. Panqui]

silverboor limbaughs: "Oh God get out of your loser mindset."

:rolleyes:

...yeah, slaughtering people in patently immoral, illegal, undeclared, largely-secretive, etc., wars has always been a winning strategy for your world-champion terrorists/republicrats...

[Todd]

You really need to PM dannno. He'll lay it all out for you. If Trump said "30 days" he means thirty days. Once he can get to it. This is still Obama's war. Trump hasn't had the time to address this yet. I'm sure he would like to, but so many factions are causing him to concentrate elsewhere right now. He talks with Rand at least twice a day. Just give him a chance.


I approve this rant. Very Big_ J (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?122144-Why-Im-Being-Censored!!!1) like. Good job.

[jmdrake]

Extrapolate that to Iraq. We are much more involved, then Obama was letting on.


Extrapolation often leads to stupid conclusions and this is a prime example. You have not actually made a coherent argument. We had pulled out of Iraq. YOUR HERO TRUMP SAID WE PULLED OUT OF IRAQ TOO EARLY! Now was it wrong for Obama to get us involved in Syria? Most certainly. But that has nothing to do with my factually accurate statement that we had pulled out of Iraq. And the answer to the war in Syria? Simple. Trump needs to actually keep the campaign promise to "Let Russia handle it." Instead he's doubled down on the failed Obama strategy of "helping the moderate rebels."



The fighting was suspended because Russia decided to pay us back and spammed everyone with civilian deaths. We did it to them too. Did you think Syrian regime just suspended their operations around Allepo when news was filled with news of civilian deaths there?


Oh. So now your channeling your inner Hillary Clinton and deciding to "blame Russian interference." :rolleyes: As if Al Jazeera wasn't covering the civilian deaths in Mosul.



They are human shields. They are protecting military objectives. We been bombing civilians before, especially when operation began.

This is not an endorsement of war. But if you fighting do it right.

Except the Iraqi army already had ISIS on the run without the need for America to "take out" the so called "human shields." And since this "war" is about saving Iraqi civilians from ISIS......

[jmdrake]

silverboor limbaughs: "Oh God get out of your loser mindset."

:rolleyes:

...yeah, slaughtering people in patently immoral, illegal, undeclared, largely-secretive, etc., wars has always been a winning strategy for your world-champion terrorists/republicrats...






He and other Trumpbots have completely bought the Trump Kool Aid. We've just had a Trumpbot longing for Trump to impose martial law in order to save us from the New World Order. You can't make this stuff up.

[silverhandorder]

silverboor limbaughs: "Oh God get out of your loser mindset."

:rolleyes:

...yeah, slaughtering people in patently immoral, illegal, undeclared, largely-secretive, etc., wars has always been a winning strategy for your world-champion terrorists/republicrats...





Make strawmans. Get owned. No need to talk toyou further.

Extrapolation often leads to stupid conclusions and this is a prime example. You have not actually made a coherent argument. We had pulled out of Iraq. YOUR HERO TRUMP SAID WE PULLED OUT OF IRAQ TOO EARLY! Now was it wrong for Obama to get us involved in Syria? Most certainly. But that has nothing to do with my factually accurate statement that we had pulled out of Iraq. And the answer to the war in Syria? Simple. Trump needs to actually keep the campaign promise to "Let Russia handle it." Instead he's doubled down on the failed Obama strategy of "helping the moderate rebels."



Oh. So now your channeling your inner Hillary Clinton and deciding to "blame Russian interference." :rolleyes: As if Al Jazeera wasn't covering the civilian deaths in Mosul.



Except the Iraqi army already had ISIS on the run without the need for America to "take out" the so called "human shields." And since this "war" is about saving Iraqi civilians from ISIS......

I am not going to engage in parsle tongue with you.

What I said so far is enough to win the argument for those that read the exchange.

[jmdrake]

I am not going to engage in parsle tongue with you.

What I said so far is enough to win the argument for those that read the exchange.

The argument in your own mind? Let's recap the argument that you have really just admitted you lost.

Me: We had already pulled out of Iraq.
You: Don't read the propaganda. We were still in Syria.
Me: Mmmm....Syria isn't Iraq. Don't be an idiot.
You: I know that but I'm right because MAGA!

It's really simple. You bought the bill of goods that Trump was somehow against the MIC and aggressive foreign policy. I don't blame you. I once believed that too. I hoped that Trump was possibly an antiwar candidate. It turns out that he wasn't. That was a ploy to get votes, stand out from the crowd, and siphon off support from Rand Paul. And.....it worked. It totally worked. Trump has been on both sides of almost every issue. Ron Paul said it best when he said that Trump changes positions within minutes. He was "kinda sorta" for the Iraq war....then he supposedly was "always against it" and you should "ask Sean Hannity" for proof...which never came. But then he pushed the neocon lie that ISIS was because Obama "pulled out too early." So it should come as no shocker to anyone that General Mattis is saying now that we should stay in Iraq indefinitely. Meet the new boss...same as the old boss....

[Suzanimal]

"Just come home. We just marched in, we can just come home ..."

For people who don't who said that...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XX-DIpkJRDY

[jmdrake]

"Just come home. We just marched in, we can just come home ..."


For people who don't who said that...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XX-DIpkJRDY

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Seriously I was starting to think I was on the wrong forum. We have to bomb the human shields in order to save them? WTF?

[Suzanimal]

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Seriously I was starting to think I was on the wrong forum. We have to bomb the human shields in order to save them? WTF?

Yeah, I was beginning to doubt anyone even remembered that guy. :(

[ChristianAnarchist]

For people who don't who said that a different world we would live in if that man had been elected!!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XX-DIpkJRDY

What a different

[AuH20]

U.S. won't be leaving the Middle East anytime soon with China on the prowl in both Africa and Eurasia. I doubt Trump can do anything unless he goes completely rogue and tells Kissinger and Co. to go cry in the corner.

[jmdrake]

U.S. won't be leaving the Middle East anytime soon with China on the prowl in both Africa and Eurasia. I doubt Trump can do anything unless he goes completely rogue and tells Kissinger and Co. to go cry in the corner.

What would Ron Paul do?

[AuH20]

What would Ron Paul do?

Pull them out and then be poisoned a day or two after.

[TheCount]

U.S. won't be leaving the Middle East anytime soon with China on the prowl in both Africa and Eurasia. I doubt Trump can do anything unless he goes completely rogue and tells Kissinger and Co. to go cry in the corner.

Stop making pathetic excuses for him. He's not only maintaining the policies of his predecessors, he's doubling down on them.

This 'Trump is simultaneously fighting the deep state and unable to do anything that we believed that he would because of the deep state' trope is getting sad quickly. Any criticism of any kind is met with handwaving and a mumbling of 'deepstatedeepstatedeepstate.'

[undergroundrr]

https://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/news/2017/3/26/500-killed-in-probable-us-mosul-airstrike-civil-defence

If it turns out to be over 500, that's our own mini-9/11. A black mark on US history.

[AuH20]

Stop making pathetic excuses for him. He's not only maintaining the policies of his predecessors, he's doubling down on them.

This 'Trump is simultaneously fighting the deep state and unable to do anything that we believed that he would because of the deep state' trope is getting sad quickly. Any criticism of any kind is met with handwaving and a mumbling of 'deepstatedeepstatedeepstate.'

I'm not making excuses for him. He's made some pacts with questionable personnel which falls on his shoulders. I'm explaining the nature of this entrenched bureaucracy that seemingly runs on autopilot. Even Kennedy could not stop the Bay of Pigs operation.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXKxcVIJbdY

[jmdrake]

https://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/news/2017/3/26/500-killed-in-probable-us-mosul-airstrike-civil-defence
An Iraqi military official told The New Arab that whoever carried out the attack may have used internationally banned weapons.

"Six of these bombs destroyed the targeted street and three adjacent alleys. The charred state of the dead bodies and fused iron and deep craters left by the bombs could not have been from normal weaponry," the official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, claimed.



If it turns out to be over 500, that's our own mini-9/11. A black mark on US history.

Wait a second. So after overthrowing and being complicit in the murder of Saddam Hussein over alleged possession of banned weapons in Iraq...we use banned weapons in Iraq? Dafuq?

[jmdrake]

Pull them out and then be poisoned a day or two after.

And so instead of pulling out, Trump out Obama's Obama and out Bush's Bush. Ummmmmmmm.....okay. :rolleyes:

[Suzanimal]

U.S. won't be leaving the Middle East anytime soon with China on the prowl in both Africa and Eurasia. I doubt Trump can do anything unless he goes completely rogue and tells Kissinger and Co. to go cry in the corner.

Wasn't his less aggressive foreign policy one of his selling points during the election? Now, you're saying he has no control over it? :confused: Maybe I'm not getting what you're saying.

[AuH20]

Wasn't his less aggressive foreign policy one of his selling points during the election? Now, you're saying he has no control over it? :confused: Maybe I'm not getting what you're saying.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/2014/10/18/vote-all-you-want-the-secret-government-won-change/jVSkXrENQlu8vNcBfMn9sL/story.html


Though it’s a bedrock American principle that citizens can steer their own government by electing new officials, Glennon suggests that in practice, much of our government no longer works that way. In a new book, “National Security and Double Government,” he catalogs the ways that the defense and national security apparatus is effectively self-governing, with virtually no accountability, transparency, or checks and balances of any kind. He uses the term “double government”: There’s the one we elect, and then there’s the one behind it, steering huge swaths of policy almost unchecked. Elected officials end up serving as mere cover for the real decisions made by the bureaucracy.


The presidency itself is not a top-down institution, as many people in the public believe, headed by a president who gives orders and causes the bureaucracy to click its heels and salute. National security policy actually bubbles up from within the bureaucracy. Many of the more controversial policies, from the mining of Nicaragua’s harbors to the NSA surveillance program, originated within the bureaucracy. John Kerry was not exaggerating when he said that some of those programs are “on autopilot.”

[jmdrake]

Wasn't his less aggressive foreign policy one of his selling points during the election? Now, you're saying he has no control over it? :confused: Maybe I'm not getting what you're saying.

Yes. But at the same time Trump ran on a less aggressive foreign policy he also ran on a more aggressive foreign policy.


https://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/2014/10/18/vote-all-you-want-the-secret-government-won-change/jVSkXrENQlu8vNcBfMn9sL/story.html

Really that excuse is thin. Trump is doing what he said he would do which is "bomb the shyt out of ISIS" and "kill their families." I'm sure in the rubble and body count of dead civilians there were people who were at least distantly related to someone in ISIS regardless of whether those people actually agreed with ISIS or not. The real danger in a Donald Trump is that since he is all over the map on every issue anything that he does is keeping a promise to somebody.

[ChristianAnarchist]

Yes. But at the same time Trump ran on a less aggressive foreign policy he also ran on a more aggressive foreign policy.



Really that excuse is thin. Trump is doing what he said he would do which is "bomb the shyt out of ISIS" and "kill their families." I'm sure in the rubble and body count of dead civilians there were people who were at least distantly related to someone in ISIS regardless of whether those people actually agreed with ISIS or not. The real danger in a Donald Trump is that since he is all over the map on every issue anything that he does is keeping a promise to somebody.

Surely you are not suggesting that it's ok to kill people who are related to ISIS wackos??

[pcosmar]

Pull them out and then be poisoned a day or two after.

Perhaps.


For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

[silverhandorder]

Loser mindset: US needs to care about Iraqis.

MAGA mindset: Trump is kicking ass left and right domestically. Will kick ass foreign policy wise when it is time to work on it.

[Suzanimal]

Loser mindset: US needs to care about Iraqis.

MAGA mindset: Trump is kicking ass left and right domestically. Will kick ass foreign policy wise when it is time to work on it.

I hope this was sarcasm.

[Suzanimal]

https://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/2014/10/18/vote-all-you-want-the-secret-government-won-change/jVSkXrENQlu8vNcBfMn9sL/story.html


Elected officials end up serving as mere cover for the real decisions made by the bureaucracy.

Then quit serving as cover for them. That's certainly within his power.

[Suzanimal]

Yes. But at the same time Trump ran on a less aggressive foreign policy he also ran on a more aggressive foreign policy.


36DDD chess?

[TheCount]

I'm not making excuses for him. He's made some pacts with questionable personnel which falls on his shoulders. I'm explaining the nature of this entrenched bureaucracy that seemingly runs on autopilot. Even Kennedy could not stop the Bay of Pigs operation.Still a garbage excuse. Still don't believe it. It is within the President's power to affect these things and yet he does not. Quite the opposite, he enables it. You can't blame the deep state for that.

[enhanced_deficit]

It is within the President's power to affect these things and yet he does not. Quite the opposite, he enables it. You can't blame the deep state for that.

BTW did you criticize or understood/support DGP's killing of children, civilians?

Curious if you see loss of innocent life through partisan lens or called dgp out too during the violent chapter following his Nobel Peace prize win.

[enhanced_deficit]

At some point it will be one terrorist attack too many. And then we will start really fighting.



Did you know in Mosul Iraq, terrorist group Hezbullah and US tax payers funded forces are defacto allies?

Iran's Hezbollah Franchise in Iraq: Lessons from Lebanon's Shiite ...
www.washingtoninstitute.org/.../irans-hezbollah-franchise-in-iraq-lessons-from-leban (http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/.../irans-hezbollah-franchise-in-iraq-lessons-from-leban)...
As Shiite militias in Iraq attempt to become potent political actors, they may follow Hezbollah's Lebanese model: using military leverage over the government to ...


Hezbollah fighters train Iraqi Shiite militants near Mosul
www.longwarjournal.org/.../hezbollah-fighters-train-iraqi-shiite-militants-near-mosul (http://www.longwarjournal.org/.../hezbollah-fighters-train-iraqi-shiite-militants-near-mosul)....
Nov 5, 2016 - Video surfaced of Hezbollah fighters training Iraqi Shiite militants near Mosul this week. They are not wearing their militia's insignia, but their ...

Terrorism is attack on civilians with a political/militant or such objective and terrorist attacks have been going on routinely for many years now.
Iraq war was a revenge slash greed driven operation based on lies, Iraqi people have paid enough price already for the war mongering adventures of US based neocons.



We shouldn't fight. But this is what will happen. A. We go bankrupt. or B. We will bomb the $#@! out of anything that moves

So you see no prospects for any other outcomes like options (C), if Trump behaves as you are projecting, and 4-8 years from now we find another Barack Hussein Obama or an openly muslim arab man sitting in the White House?
Bush's wars produced Obama, how can anyone be so sure that Trump's wars with high collateral damage and all the physical/psychological/emotional/financial costs that come with it won't push American public to swing to the opposite extreme again?

Beyond some verbal bluffs and incidental blunders like recent ones in Yemen/Iraq, I don't see Trump moving militarily in fighting escalation diection. Mostly because it's not practical and very little appetite in most of America for such a costly course.

[charrob]

Instead he's [Trump has] doubled down on the failed Obama strategy of "helping the moderate rebels."


He's helped the SDF which is composed primarily of Kurds in the north. But I haven't read anything saying he's continued the cia's arming/training/funding of the anti-Assad rebels in the rest of the country. In fact, I believe Trump ended that program:


Trump administration instructs CIA to halt support for anti-Assad rebels in Syria (https://intelnews.org/2017/02/23/01-2068/)


Can you provide a link discussing that he re-started this program? Don't get me wrong: I am not happy with the continued U.S. aggression abroad, now under Trump; but I've seen no evidence of Obama's anti-assad program of arming "moderate rebels" (which pretty much caused the so-called "civil war") being re-started.

[Ender]

He's helped the SDF which is composed primarily of Kurds in the north. But I haven't read anything saying he's continued the cia's arming/training/funding of the anti-Assad rebels in the rest of the country. In fact, I believe Trump ended that program:


Trump administration instructs CIA to halt support for anti-Assad rebels in Syria (https://intelnews.org/2017/02/23/01-2068/)


Can you provide a link discussing that he re-started this program? Don't get me wrong: I am not happy with the continued U.S. aggression abroad, now under Trump; but I've seen no evidence of Obama's anti-assad program of arming "moderate rebels" (which pretty much caused the so-called "civil war") being re-started.

Uhhhh...... maybe listen to Ron Paul? Trump & Co. are arming 2 different sides that are fighting each other.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?508448-Race-For-Raqqa-Major-US-Escalation-In-Syria

[undergroundrr]

He's helped the SDF which is composed primarily of Kurds in the north. But I haven't read anything saying he's continued the cia's arming/training/funding of the anti-Assad rebels in the rest of the country. In fact, I believe Trump ended that program:


Trump administration instructs CIA to halt support for anti-Assad rebels in Syria (https://intelnews.org/2017/02/23/01-2068/)


Can you provide a link discussing that he re-started this program? Don't get me wrong: I am not happy with the continued U.S. aggression abroad, now under Trump; but I've seen no evidence of Obama's anti-assad program of arming "moderate rebels" (which pretty much caused the so-called "civil war") being re-started.

Saudi Arabia supports the anti-Assad rebels. We provide arms to Saudi Arabia.

[Zippyjuan]

Surely you are not suggesting that it's ok to kill people who are related to ISIS wackos??

Killing Taliban wackos and their families helped create more ISIS wackos.

[charrob]

Uhhhh...... maybe listen to Ron Paul? Trump & Co. are arming 2 different sides that are fighting each other.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?508448-Race-For-Raqqa-Major-US-Escalation-In-Syria


The question is the cia program of directly arming/training/funding the anti-assad so-called 'moderate forces': i think he ended that (see my link given above). It may re-start, but i don't believe that it has restarted (although i may be wrong). At least i have seen no news articles stating that Trump restarted that program.

Re: the RP video: This video was mostly about the addition of U.S. forces to the mess in Syria, not re-starting obama's program of the cia training/arming anti-assad rebels. Also, it wasn't Ron Paul but rather Daniel McAdams who stated the situation in Manbij at the beginning of the video then elaborated on that later in the video. At the beginning he mis-spoke but later, when he elaborated on Manbij he corrected himself and stated that we sent in rangers to separate the U.S. backed kurdish forces from the Turkish backed forces.

Daniel also conjectured that the U.S. military may give Raqqa to "moderate rebels" after the U.S. military obtains that land, but at this point that is only conjecture without any proof.

[charrob]

Saudi Arabia supports the anti-Assad rebels. We provide arms to Saudi Arabia.

That is true. But my question was on the direct training/arming/funding of anti-assad rebels by the cia. That program, as far as i have seen, was cancelled by Trump at the beginning of his administration.

I follow antiwar.com regularly and believe Jason Ditz would have had an article on that if that program was re-started. But at least up till now I've seen no evidence that program was restarted. If I have missed an article stating this program was re-started, I'd be most obliged if you would provide a link.

[Zippyjuan]

That is true. But my question was on the direct training/arming/funding of anti-assad rebels by the cia. That program, as far as i have seen, was cancelled by Trump at the beginning of his administration.

I follow antiwar.com regularly and believe Jason Ditz would have had an article on that if that program was re-started. But at least up till now I've seen no evidence that program was restarted. If I have missed an article stating this program was re-started, I'd be most obliged if you would provide a link.

The new forces he is sending in are supposed to be aiding Syrian rebels though ostensibly against ISIS, not Assad. http://observer.com/2017/03/dennis-kucinich-donald-trump-adds-troops-war-syria/


For the duration of the war in Syria, which began in 2011, the United States’ involvement has been limited to drone strikes and airstrikes, supplemented with special forces operations. Under the Trump administration, U.S. involvement is quietly escalating with the announcement that another 400 heavily armed marines will be deployed to Syria. The Washington Post reported on March 8, “The deployment marks a new escalation in the U.S. war in Syria, and puts more conventional U.S. troops in the battle. Several hundred Special Operations troops have advised local forces there for months, but the Pentagon has mostly shied away from using conventional forces in Syria. The new mission comes as the Trump administration weighs a plan to help Syrian rebels take back Raqqa, the de facto capital of the Islamic State. The plan also includes more Special Operations troops and attack helicopters.” On March 15, the Washington Post reported that the Trump administration planned to deploy 1,000 more troops to Syria in the coming weeks.

[Ender]

The question is the cia program of directly arming/training/funding the anti-assad so-called 'moderate forces': i think he ended that (see my link given above). It may re-start, but i don't believe that it has restarted (although i may be wrong). At least i have seen no news articles stating that Trump restarted that program.

Re: the RP video: This video was mostly about the addition of U.S. forces to the mess in Syria, not re-starting obama's program of the cia training/arming anti-assad rebels. Also, it wasn't Ron Paul but rather Daniel McAdams who stated the situation in Manbij at the beginning of the video then elaborated on that later in the video. At the beginning he mis-spoke but later, when he elaborated on Manbij he corrected himself and stated that we sent in rangers to separate the U.S. backed kurdish forces from the Turkish backed forces.

Daniel also conjectured that the U.S. military may give Raqqa to "moderate rebels" after the U.S. military obtains that land, but at this point that is only conjecture without any proof.

Trump has given droning powers to CIA:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?508600-Trump-gives-CIA-power-to-launch-drone-strikes-report&highlight=trump+power+CIA

[charrob]

Trump has given droning powers to CIA:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?508600-Trump-gives-CIA-power-to-launch-drone-strikes-report&highlight=trump+power+CIA

Yes I know, and that's really bad. But my question in particular was about the cia program of directly training/arming/funding anti-assad rebels in Syria. That program in particular (i think) ended a couple months ago.

[undergroundrr]

That is true. But my question was on the direct training/arming/funding of anti-assad rebels by the cia. That program, as far as i have seen, was cancelled by Trump at the beginning of his administration.

I follow antiwar.com regularly and believe Jason Ditz would have had an article on that if that program was re-started. But at least up till now I've seen no evidence that program was restarted.

Good question. I'd love to know. I hope you're right.

The more Deep State-obsessed trump supporters would say trump has little ability to control anything about the CIA (after a year of telling us he's going to take the wrecking ball to them). As Ender notes, trump has given the CIA expanded control of the execution of the drone program. It would be interesting if he were expanding their scope in some ways and restricting it in others. As far as anybody can tell he's letting the CIA do what they want.

[charrob]

The new forces he is sending in are supposed to be aiding Syrian rebels though ostensibly against ISIS, not Assad. http://observer.com/2017/03/dennis-kucinich-donald-trump-adds-troops-war-syria/


Right, and that's been the breakdown for years: Obama had the pentagon train rebels that fought isis while he had the cia train rebels that fought assad. My understanding is that Trump stopped the cia's direct program of training/arming/funding the anti-assad rebels.

Trump administration instructs CIA to halt support for anti-Assad rebels in Syria (https://intelnews.org/2017/02/23/01-2068/)


Trump may restart that program (who knows as he's all over the map with his policy views). But at least for now (i think) the cia's program has ended.

[Zippyjuan]

Right, and that's been the breakdown for years: Obama had the pentagon train rebels that fought isis while he had the cia train rebels that fought assad. My understanding is that Trump stopped the cia's direct program of training/arming/funding the anti-assad rebels.

Trump administration instructs CIA to halt support for anti-Assad rebels in Syria (https://intelnews.org/2017/02/23/01-2068/)


Trump may restart that program (who knows as he's all over the map with his policy views). But at least for now (i think) the cia's program has ended.

Also doesn't rule out training and funding them in other ways than by using the CIA for it.

[charrob]

Good question. I'd love to know. I hope you're right.

The more Deep State-obsessed trump supporters would say trump has little ability to control anything about the CIA (after a year of telling us he's going to take the wrecking ball to them). As Ender notes, trump has given the CIA expanded control of the execution of the drone program. It would be interesting if he were expanding their scope in some ways and restricting it in others. As far as anybody can tell he's letting the CIA do what they want.


Right. I think the difference is that the purpose of Trump's expansion (at least so far) has been to destroy isis while Obama wanted to destroy both isis and assad.

Will Trump eventually decide "Assad must go"? That's anybody's guess... but at least for now it appears there is an end to the U.S. proxy war against Assad's forces in Syria (and by extension an end to the U.S./Russia proxy war).

[charrob]

Also doesn't rule out training and funding them in other ways than by using the CIA for it.


So you are saying the pentagon is now directly training anti-assad rebel forces who are fighting the Syrian military?

[jmdrake]

Surely you are not suggesting that it's ok to kill people who are related to ISIS wackos??

Of course not. I'm saying Trump is doing what he promised in the campaign. That's because during the campaign Trump was all over the map. And that's part of the reason why I don't support Trump. He's not trustworthy.

[Zippyjuan]

So you are saying the pentagon is now directly training anti-assad rebel forces who are fighting the Syrian military?

Couldn't say for sure. They are training and arming rebels- who could potentially fight against both Assad and ISIS. ISIS is the stated target but missions can tend to creep in initially undesired directions. What will happen when US supported rebel troops come face to face with Russian backed Syrian forces on the battlefield as they eventually will? I don't think we should do anything in Syria. We are just complicating things there.

[jmdrake]

Loser mindset: US needs to care about Iraqis.

MAGA mindset: Trump is kicking ass left and right domestically. Will kick ass foreign policy wise when it is time to work on it.

Libertarian mindset. The U.S. needs to minds its own business and let the Iraqis continue what they were doing before Trump got elected which is kicking ISIS but without any assistance from us.

[jmdrake]

He's helped the SDF which is composed primarily of Kurds in the north. But I haven't read anything saying he's continued the cia's arming/training/funding of the anti-Assad rebels in the rest of the country. In fact, I believe Trump ended that program:


Trump administration instructs CIA to halt support for anti-Assad rebels in Syria (https://intelnews.org/2017/02/23/01-2068/)


Can you provide a link discussing that he re-started this program? Don't get me wrong: I am not happy with the continued U.S. aggression abroad, now under Trump; but I've seen no evidence of Obama's anti-assad program of arming "moderate rebels" (which pretty much caused the so-called "civil war") being re-started.

In helping the Kurds he is putting the U.S. on a crash course with NATO ally Turkey.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/03/21/the-race-to-raqqa-could-cost-trump-turkey/

Why not let Russia/Turkey and Syria handle ISIS? Trump said during the campaign he would do that...before saying the exact opposite.

[Zippyjuan]

In helping the Kurds he is putting the U.S. on a crash course with NATO ally Turkey.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/03/21/the-race-to-raqqa-could-cost-trump-turkey/

Why not let Russia/Turkey and Syria handle ISIS? Trump said during the campaign he would do that...before saying the exact opposite.

Kurds have been one of the few effective fighting forces and governments in the region. When things in Iraq collapsed, they were the only stable part of the country. They have also been one of the most effective against ISIS.

[charrob]

Why not let Russia/Turkey and Syria handle ISIS? Trump said during the campaign he would do that...before saying the exact opposite.

Well yes of course I totally agree with you on this.




In helping the Kurds he is putting the U.S. on a crash course with NATO ally Turkey.
http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/03/21/the-race-to-raqqa-could-cost-trump-turkey/

True, but the Syrian military has completely cut off Turkey in the northern aleppo province from coming any further south. It may be reading tea leaves, but Trump had to choose one way or the other: go with the Kurds, or go with Turkey. And it completely appears that he has chosen the Kurds who now almost have Raqqa surrounded. And, yes, Erdogan was pissed... he stated he was. Especially after Trump put in rangers in Manbij to stop Erdogan's attack on that city.

I detest Erdogan so am glad his invasion of Syria has (at least for now) been stopped. The question is how aggressive the kurds will be after taking Raqqa: will they want to keep all this territory? And that's where the real negotiating (and hopefully not war) will begin is when isis is defeated. I think Erdogan and Turkey is out (which is a good thing); i think the U.S. proxy war against Assad is out (at least for now) and by extension the U.S. proxy war with Russia is out (at least for now). But the Kurds want an autonomous or federalized state: will Assad allow this? The big questions really come after isis is defeated.

[undergroundrr]

after isis is defeated.

You lost me there.

[jmdrake]

Kurds have been one of the few effective fighting forces and governments in the region. When things in Iraq collapsed, they were the only stable part of the country. They have also been one of the most effective against ISIS.

I wasn't questioning their effectiveness. I was questioning the wisdom of getting in between the Kurds and a fight with NATO ally Turkey in Syria. Note that Syria is not Iraq.

[jmdrake]

Well yes of course I totally agree with you on this.





True, but the Syrian military has completely cut off Turkey in the northern aleppo province from coming any further south. It may be reading tea leaves, but Trump had to choose one way or the other: go with the Kurds, or go with Turkey. And it completely appears that he has chosen the Kurds who now almost have Raqqa surrounded. And, yes, Erdogan was pissed... he stated he was. Especially after Trump put in rangers in Manbij to stop Erdogan's attack on that city.

I detest Erdogan so am glad his invasion of Syria has (at least for now) been stopped. The question is how aggressive the kurds will be after taking Raqqa: will they want to keep all this territory? And that's where the real negotiating (and hopefully not war) will begin is when isis is defeated. I think Erdogan and Turkey is out (which is a good thing); i think the U.S. proxy war against Assad is out (at least for now) and by extension the U.S. proxy war with Russia is out (at least for now). But the Kurds want an autonomous or federalized state: will Assad allow this? The big questions really come after isis is defeated.

I guarantee that what comes after ISIS is defeated will be a big stinking mess that won't be cleaned up for decades.

[charrob]

You lost me there.

sorry i don't understand. Here was i think the sentence you are referring to:


I detest Erdogan so am glad his invasion of Syria has (at least for now) been stopped. The question is how aggressive the kurds will be after taking Raqqa: will they want to keep all this territory? And that's where the real negotiating (and hopefully not war) will begin is when isis is defeated.

So the question is what happens after isis is defeated in raqqa? The Kurds presently have almost all territory surrounding raqqa east of the Euphrates, and over the weekend they have now taken territory surrounding raqqa west of the Euphrates. So pretty much the kurds, backed by the U.S., will be taking raqqa. Turkey (and their so-called 'moderate rebels' -- ie. ahrar al sham, fsa, al-zinki, etc.) is completely out of the loop and unable to go further south. So the big question is: what happens to this territory after isis is defeated in raqqa? I think that's where the real war or (more hopefully) the real negotiating will come in.

[charrob]

I guarantee that what comes after ISIS is defeated will be a big stinking mess that won't be cleaned up for decades.


Sadly you are probably right. So much wish this wasn't so. :(

[TheCount]

Trump had to choose one way or the other: go with the Kurds, or go with Turkey.You can't see any other potential options besides these two?

[charrob]

You can't see any other potential options besides these two?


As i stated in the same post you are referring, do nothing and letting Syria/Russia/Iran free Raqqa of isis is of course the best solution.

But since Trump has it in his mind to take part in the 'liberation' of Raqqa from isis, then Trump has a number of options, however it was one of those two options that were obviously going to be chosen. Other options would have had more pushback by the American people and the MSM. For example: working with Russia would have had the russophobes in the MSM going ballistic 24/7. Having all U.S. troops invade without local help would have had more pushback from military families and congress. Re-starting Obama's cia program of backing al qaeda linked "rebels" was not something Trump was going to do. The kurds were already close by wanting to partner with the U.S. in this invasion; the Turks also wanted this partnership. So, yes of course there were other options, but those 2 were obviously the predominant options that made the most sense for American participation in the invasion of raqqa considering all political factors.

[undergroundrr]

Re-starting Obama's cia program of backing al qaeda linked "rebels" was not something Trump was going to do.

Why is this axiomatic? trump is giving the CIA carte blanche about droning. Why wouldn't he be giving them free reign in other areas too, outside of public purview?

No matter what news story you've read, it's hardly like the CIA suddenly stopped tinkering in Middle East affairs when trump took office.

[charrob]

Why is this axiomatic?

It's axiomatic because Trump ended the official cia program that trained/armed/funded al qaeda linked rebels. That program was official. Congress gave funding for that program during the Obama administration. I remember writing my congressman asking him to vote not to fund that program. Trump ended it:

Trump administration instructs CIA to halt support for anti-Assad rebels in Syria (https://intelnews.org/2017/02/23/01-2068/)



trump is giving the CIA carte blanche about droning. Why wouldn't he be giving them free reign in other areas too, outside of public purview? No matter what news story you've read, it's hardly like the CIA suddenly stopped tinkering in Middle East affairs when trump took office.

The official program was ended. Is Trump lying to the media and congress that this program has ended (like Reagan did during Iran/Contra) and funding the cia through some other sources? I don't know, but the official program funded by congress has been ended. Is the CIA going behind Trump's back and continuing the program with some other funding? I don't know; it sure wouldn't surprise me given the reputation of the CIA. But officially that program and it's funding has ended.

You asked: Why would Trump give the CIA carte blanche about droning but not about training al qaeda linked rebels? I don't know. A possibility could be that Trump, unlike Obama and the democrats, doesn't want to overthrow Assad and increase tensions with Russia. Maybe he justs wants to get rid of isis and then get out of Syria. Maybe he's uncomfortable training al qaeda linked rebels. Or maybe he hasn't made up his mind yet whether he wants to overthrow Assad or not. I don't know what his reasons are. But as far as i've seen, the official program has ended. He may re-start it; who knows? But at least for now, from what i have seen, it's ended.

[Ender]

sorry i don't understand. Here was i think the sentence you are referring to:



So the question is what happens after isis is defeated in raqqa? The Kurds presently have almost all territory surrounding raqqa east of the Euphrates, and over the weekend they have now taken territory surrounding raqqa west of the Euphrates. So pretty much the kurds, backed by the U.S., will be taking raqqa. Turkey (and their so-called 'moderate rebels' -- ie. ahrar al sham, fsa, al-zinki, etc.) is completely out of the loop and unable to go further south. So the big question is: what happens to this territory after isis is defeated in raqqa? I think that's where the real war or (more hopefully) the real negotiating will come in.

Raqqa is about OIL. And we all know where Trump is on that.

[charrob]

Raqqa is about OIL. And we all know where Trump is on that.

Russia/Syria/Iran are not going to let that happen without a fight. I really question if Trump would allow things to escalate with Russia. He might, but at least so far he doesn't seem to be doing that.

The Kurds do want to keep Raqqa however (http://news.antiwar.com/2017/03/27/syrian-kurdish-leader-raqqa-will-join-kurdish-run-region/)... the biggest problems in Syria are sure to come after the fall of isis because then everyone shows their true motives...

[Ender]

Russia/Syria/Iran are not going to let that happen without a fight. I really question if Trump would allow things to escalate with Russia. He might, but at least so far he doesn't seem to be doing that.

The Kurds do want to keep Raqqa however (http://news.antiwar.com/2017/03/27/syrian-kurdish-leader-raqqa-will-join-kurdish-run-region/)... the biggest problems in Syria are sure to come after the fall of isis because then everyone shows their true motives...

Trump might be cautious with Russia but he hates Iran and doesn't give a rat's ass about Syria.

[undergroundrr]

So the question is what happens after isis is defeated in raqqa?

Again, your presumption gives super-powers to trump and the MIC. Your question is like asking what will happen after Al Qaeda is defeated in Kabul.

http://www.iol.co.za/news/world/police-blame-al-qaeda-for-kabul-blast-94169

[enhanced_deficit]

Do neocons, or their political slaves, have this weird theory that children burnt to death/mutilated with bombs/drones is more acceptable than gas attack?

[timosman]

Do neocons, or their political slaves, have this weird theory that children burnt to death/mutilated with bombs/drones is more acceptable than gas attack?

C'mon, gas is terrible!:cool:

[Occam's Banana]

Do neocons, or their political slaves, have this weird theory that children burnt to death/mutilated with bombs/drones is more acceptable than gas attack?

The sights and smells of mutilated and burning children are more pleasing to their gods.

[undergroundrr]

RPF, where people argue about what method of killing children is more humane.

[AZJoe]

https://www.davidicke.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Untitled-4-4.jpg

[enhanced_deficit]

Not opposed to such investigations by Iraqis but US shoud make sure that US will be exempt from any rights violation citations due to our exceptional sacrifices for cause of freedom in Iraq and exceptional record of putting civilians protection above everything else:


Iraq probes allegations of human rights violations in Mosul



By sinan salaheddin, associated press

BAGHDAD — May 24, 2017, 7:00 AM ET

http://a.abcnews.com/images/International/WireAP_81f364b193ff4856ba50199530a281f5_12x5_1600. jpgThe Associated Press

WATCH Battle for Mosul, Iraq, leaves civilians on the run





Iraq's Interior Ministry said it launched an investigation into allegations of human rights violations perpetrated by its forces fighting the Islamic State group in Mosul.
The allegations were first reported by Germany's Der Spiegel magazine last weekend. The report, authored by an Iraqi photographer reportedly embedded with the police unit, claims he witnessed killing, torture and rape of IS suspects.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/iraq-probes-allegations-human-rights-violations-mosul-47602607

[CPUd]

Could be some more white phosphorus in the future:

876406637333946368
https://twitter.com/LovedayM/status/876406637333946368