Ron's Tweetstorm - Was Trump's Speech Libertarian?

[Brian4Liberty]

Ron's Tweetstorm - Was Trump's Speech Libertarian? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTjUf3r0xG4)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTjUf3r0xG4


Dr. Paul took to Twitter last night to make live comments on President Trump's address to Congress. From a Libertarian perspective, where did Trump get it wrong and where did he get it right? What final grade did Dr. Paul give him?

[CaptUSA]

Damn. So much sense.

Why is it that we have so many people on these forums that have forgotten all of this stuff? Did they ever even know?

[CPUd]

Anyone with a spare twitter account, Ron could use some support in the replies. Just pick tweets from here:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?508126-Ron-Paul-s-been-on-a-Twitter-roll-tonight!&p=6425407&viewfull=1#post6425407

Warning- you will get stalked by alt-right statists, so you might not want to use your main account.

[CaptUSA]

Anyone with a spare twitter account, Ron could use some support in the replies. Just pick tweets from here:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?508126-Ron-Paul-s-been-on-a-Twitter-roll-tonight!&p=6425407&viewfull=1#post6425407

Warning- you will get stalked by alt-right statists, so you might not want to use your main account.

So... pretty much like RPF, then?

I don't do Twitter, but I support EVERYTHING Ron said in this video. It should be watched and reviewed by all Trump supporters here.

[CPUd]

RPFs is relatively tame compared to what's out there on social media.

[Ender]

Damn. So much sense.

Why is it that we have so many people on these forums that have forgotten all of this stuff? Did they ever even know?

Wonder sometimes.

Ron Paul always makes sense.

[bunklocoempire]

Thank you Dr. Paul.

Dr. Common Sense Gadfly tweets like a boss.:cool:

Ideas. Consistency. Conscience. Compassion. The Reality of Man's Nature.

[undergroundrr]

This is one of the best Liberty Reports ever. It really gets emotional in the part about the war widow.

Interesting that he implicates Obama for the Yemen raid at 15:00 - "The presidentS, both of them are responsible for this particular raid."

[PierzStyx]

I got sick last night listening to that speech. Physically ill.

[Superfluous Man]

I wonder if we could successfully petition RP to stop letting Rockwell publish his stuff until he stops pumping Trump.

[Superfluous Man]

I got sick last night listening to that speech. Physically ill.

Why subject yourself to that tripe?

[afwjam]

Awesome episode! I watch every one of them. We love you Dr. Paul.

[unknown]

Damn. So much sense.

Why is it that we have so many people on these forums that have forgotten all of this stuff? Did they ever even know?

Ive been wondering the same thing.

Were half the Ron Paul "people" really Deep State, authoritarian, big government RINO infiltrators?

[Superfluous Man]

Ive been wondering the same thing.

Were half the Ron Paul "people" really Deep State, authoritarian, big government RINO infiltrators?

Honestly, most of the ones who turned out to be Trump trannies (we're not supposed to say trolls), are not surprising.

When you take out the ones who have always been racists, protectionists, high 24/7, or just plain dumb, there aren't many left.

[timosman]

Honestly, most of the ones who turned out to be Trump trannies (we're not supposed to say trolls), are not surprising.

When you take out the ones who have always been racists, protectionists, high 24/7, or just plain dumb, there aren't many left.

Which of these categories you are in?

[GunnyFreedom]

Damn. So much sense.

Why is it that we have so many people on these forums that have forgotten all of this stuff? Did they ever even know?

They just hated the status quo and we had the best thing going, so they would happily smile and nod, maybe even repeat some of our key phrases about, but I think it was all a vehicle for whatever scheme they thought they had going on.

[Brian4Liberty]

Surprised no one has mentioned that we now have a "right" to childcare and extra paid leave for a special category of worker...

A look at Trump’s $500 billion child care plan (https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/nation/2017/03/01/look-trump-billion-child-care-plan/XTt64hYtoVkeKkU7toUWdL/story.html)

[sparebulb]

When you take out the ones who have always been racists, protectionists, high 24/7, or just plain dumb, there aren't many left.

A basket of deplorables, eh?

[Superfluous Man]

Which of these categories you are in?

None. But Timo's man fits a lot of them.

[ChristianAnarchist]

Thank you Ron Paul... Always consistent, always standing for liberty!!

[jmdrake]

Damn. So much sense.

Why is it that we have so many people on these forums that have forgotten all of this stuff? Did they ever even know?

Some always had their own agenda and the Ron Paul movement was just a means to push it. Others project what they want to see into Trump.

[PierzStyx]

Why subject yourself to that tripe?

Ugh. Who knows anymore. I guess it was the same instinct that makes you want to see the car crash on the side of the road, so you slow down just to watch.

[PierzStyx]

They just hated the status quo and we had the best thing going, so they would happily smile and nod, maybe even repeat some of our key phrases about, but I think it was all a vehicle for whatever scheme they thought they had going on.

Which makes me wonder if Dr. Ron Paul is right about the rise of libertarianism.

That said, today one of my students told me she thought the biggest problem with society was the government. And that gives me hope.

[CPUd]

Which makes me wonder if Dr. Ron Paul is right about the rise of libertarianism.

That said, today one of my students told me she thought the biggest problem with society was the government. And that gives me hope.

YAL has been growing since the end of Ron 2012 campaign and especially with Rand 2016.

[phill4paul]

I'd really like to hear from LibertyEagle.

And dannno.

[dannno]

I'd really like to hear from @LibertyEagle (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/member.php?u=660).

And @dannno (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/member.php?u=10908).

I have no issue with Ron Paul's criticisms of Trump.. I share them.. but the fact is, he is no worse on any of these issues than the establishment, and he is a LOT better on many other issues.

But do you see Ron Paul getting up there and asking if the Russians hacked the election or talking about all the other stupid bullshit that gets passed around the msm about Trump? No, if anything he actually defends Trump on some of these points.. Unlike the msm, does Ron Paul zero in on the real liberty issues? Absolutely. Nothing wrong with that.

[phill4paul]

I have no issue with Ron Paul's criticisms of Trump.. I share them.. but the fact is, he is no worse on any of these issues than the establishment, and he is a LOT better on many other issues.

But do you see Ron Paul getting up there and asking if the Russians hacked the election or talking about all the other stupid bullshit that gets passed around the msm about Trump, or does Ron Paul zero in on the liberty issues?

I'm glad to hear you share Ron Paul's criticisms. I'd like to hear you cite Ron Paul's criticisms in future threads.

[osan]

I certainly appreciate Dr. Paul's normative notions and find myself in broad agreement. But are his positive expectations realistic, given the "very bad" conditions we find today? I cannot say they are not, but neither can I say that they are. The momentum of Leviathan is incalculable, particularly the mental aspect. To expect normatively correct measures to find realization in the current circumstance is not particularly realistic. It is, in fact, dangerous.

Is it not possible that Trump is attempting to optimize achievement in the right direction? It seems to me eminently plausible that in order to do this, one must take intermediate steps between the current state mess we're in and the goal state. People will simply reject out of hand most sea changes because they fear them or that which they imply. I have done a lot of process reengineering in my career, some of it for very large operations. In every case there were intermediate steps because flashing from "here" to "there" in one fell swoop is usually bound for failure precisely because people cannot take it all in. Now, imagine that situation magnified millions or billions of times as it applies to American political culture and economics. The nation would burn in short order for any of a fair list of reasons.

If we were to put Ron Paul in Trump's place this very afternoon, would be do better than Trump? I say no; not because he isn't smart or a man of integrity, but because there is only so much a sitting president can do. Swimming 180* against the mental tide of a nation this largely entrenched stands to fail rapidly and with great fireworks. Even an American president does not have that sort of power. I would also point out that all our talk of kicking liberal ass in the streets aside, the real truth is that a president is obliged, rightly or otherwise, to evade civil war at any reasonable cost. If that means taking 8 years to accomplish what could otherwise be done in 30 days, then he takes 8 years.

This journey back toward something resembling freedom cannot be accomplished as most people envision it. If Initiative-X were to put us 50% of the way from where we are to freedom and could be accomplished in a month's time, the cost being the "lefties" going apeshit and starting a war, is a president justified in undertaking it despite millions dead? It would be a tough sell and the precedent it would set, endlessly dangerous because that sword cuts both ways.

I will stop short of saying Ron Paul is mistaken on some of these issues, but I do question his positions in the particulars.

I would also point out that there are many actions Trump could take that would likely result in his assassination or removal from office, despite all of them being in the best interests of the American people. Let us not forget for even a moment what the Congress is. Let us not ignore the deadly dangerous corruption that lives and breathes there every day. It is commonplace and not some rare evil. It is become banal, and because of it, ever more dangerous to men like Dr. Paul and, possibly, Donald Trump.

It pays to be circumspect about these things. Would I like to see the "left" destroyed? No - I'd LOVE to. But the "right" isn't that much better, on average. Were I God over America and could eliminate everyone worthy of it with absolute precision, the aftermath would leave America with a population of about three. IOW, there is plenty of flaw on all sides and those sides, when threatened in truth or imagination, become unpredictable and endlessly dangerous, even to a sitting president.

Threats to life aside, there remains the fact that if Trump goes too far too fast, giving the vipers of Congress and others no time to adjust themselves to the changes, they will forget their cross-aisle differences and band together against him. The result: four years of nothing happening and a regime change back to something Theye feel is far safer and we will be back in the Obammy boat, for all intents and purposes. Is that what we want? I don't.

It therefore behooves the thinking man to take a step back and consider that maybe Trump is in good awareness of his predicament and chooses his actions for maximal effect in a circumstance to tight that larger and bolder bites risks the consolidation of the den into a bloc in full array against him. If Trump proves himself otherwise, there is not that much we can do about it now. Therefore, the best course, IMO, is to be supportive and do what you can to help steer things in a better direction while maintaining realistic expectations, which means bearing in mind the growing militancy of the "left". They are talking a new talk and beginning to walk it. If they strike, we deal with it as we must, but I see no reason to goad them unnecessarily into initiation, satisfying as it might be in some respects. Do not forget that any of us could end up dead in a national melée. Best to live to fight another day under less immediately dangerous conditions, if possible.

Trump has purged a large chunk of State. Unless there is something there of which I am unaware, I call that a good move in the right direction. No, it's not instant liberty for all. You weren't going to get that in any event, so be glad for a nudge in a better direction. And if you feel he is not doing right on a given issue, why not become involved? I deplore the reports that Trump intends on continuing his support for the drug war. Perhaps I should get off my ass and see what I might do to help him see the better way. What a concept.

[givemeliberty2010]

I certainly appreciate Dr. Paul's normative notions and find myself in broad agreement. But are his positive expectations realistic, given the "very bad" conditions we find today? I cannot say they are not, but neither can I say that they are. The momentum of Leviathan is incalculable, particularly the mental aspect. To expect normatively correct measures to find realization in the current circumstance is not particularly realistic. It is, in fact, dangerous.

Is it not possible that Trump is attempting to optimize achievement in the right direction? It seems to me eminently plausible that in order to do this, one must take intermediate steps between the current state mess we're in and the goal state. People will simply reject out of hand most sea changes because they fear them or that which they imply. I have done a lot of process reengineering in my career, some of it for very large operations. In every case there were intermediate steps because flashing from "here" to "there" in one fell swoop is usually bound for failure precisely because people cannot take it all in. Now, imagine that situation magnified millions or billions of times as it applies to American political culture and economics. The nation would burn in short order for any of a fair list of reasons.

If we were to put Ron Paul in Trump's place this very afternoon, would be do better than Trump? I say no; not because he isn't smart or a man of integrity, but because there is only so much a sitting president can do. Swimming 180* against the mental tide of a nation this largely entrenched stands to fail rapidly and with great fireworks. Even an American president does not have that sort of power. I would also point out that all our talk of kicking liberal ass in the streets aside, the real truth is that a president is obliged, rightly or otherwise, to evade civil war at any reasonable cost. If that means taking 8 years to accomplish what could otherwise be done in 30 days, then he takes 8 years.

This journey back toward something resembling freedom cannot be accomplished as most people envision it. If Initiative-X were to put us 50% of the way from where we are to freedom and could be accomplished in a month's time, the cost being the "lefties" going ape$#@! and starting a war, is a president justified in undertaking it despite millions dead? It would be a tough sell and the precedent it would set, endlessly dangerous because that sword cuts both ways.

I will stop short of saying Ron Paul is mistaken on some of these issues, but I do question his positions in the particulars.

I would also point out that there are many actions Trump could take that would likely result in his assassination or removal from office, despite all of them being in the best interests of the American people. Let us not forget for even a moment what the Congress is. Let us not ignore the deadly dangerous corruption that lives and breathes there every day. It is commonplace and not some rare evil. It is become banal, and because of it, ever more dangerous to men like Dr. Paul and, possibly, Donald Trump.

It pays to be circumspect about these things. Would I like to see the "left" destroyed? No - I'd LOVE to. But the "right" isn't that much better, on average. Were I God over America and could eliminate everyone worthy of it with absolute precision, the aftermath would leave America with a population of about three. IOW, there is plenty of flaw on all sides and those sides, when threatened in truth or imagination, become unpredictable and endlessly dangerous, even to a sitting president.

Threats to life aside, there remains the fact that if Trump goes too far too fast, giving the vipers of Congress and others no time to adjust themselves to the changes, they will forget their cross-aisle differences and band together against him. The result: four years of nothing happening and a regime change back to something Theye feel is far safer and we will be back in the Obammy boat, for all intents and purposes. Is that what we want? I don't.

It therefore behooves the thinking man to take a step back and consider that maybe Trump is in good awareness of his predicament and chooses his actions for maximal effect in a circumstance to tight that larger and bolder bites risks the consolidation of the den into a bloc in full array against him. If Trump proves himself otherwise, there is not that much we can do about it now. Therefore, the best course, IMO, is to be supportive and do what you can to help steer things in a better direction while maintaining realistic expectations, which means bearing in mind the growing militancy of the "left". They are talking a new talk and beginning to walk it. If they strike, we deal with it as we must, but I see no reason to goad them unnecessarily into initiation, satisfying as it might be in some respects. Do not forget that any of us could end up dead in a national melée. Best to live to fight another day under less immediately dangerous conditions, if possible.

Trump has purged a large chunk of State. Unless there is something there of which I am unaware, I call that a good move in the right direction. No, it's not instant liberty for all. You weren't going to get that in any event, so be glad for a nudge in a better direction. And if you feel he is not doing right on a given issue, why not become involved? I deplore the reports that Trump intends on continuing his support for the drug war. Perhaps I should get off my ass and see what I might do to help him see the better way. What a concept.What reason do we have for thinking Trump wants to move things in what libertarians would consider the right direction? Trump sometimes talks a moderately good game on foreign policy, but talk doesn't change anything. His biggest policy proposal so far is the budget plans, which, although not official yet, seem likely to mean more debt.

I will grant that a lot has been made of his anti-regulatory policies. While I lack the specific knowledge of how much he can put into effect and what the effect would be, perhaps that is one area where his actions look libertarian. On another important libertarian concern, limitation of executive power, his actions have been terrible.

[osan]

What reason do we have for thinking Trump wants to move things in what libertarians would consider the right direction? Trump sometimes talks a moderately good game on foreign policy, but talk doesn't change anything. His biggest policy proposal so far is the budget plans, which, although not official yet, seem likely to mean more debt.

I will grant that a lot has been made of his anti-regulatory policies. While I lack the specific knowledge of how much he can put into effect and what the effect would be, perhaps that is one area where his actions look libertarian. On another important libertarian concern, limitation of executive power, his actions have been terrible.

Would you prefer Clinton? Another four of Obama?

Complain all you like. You are NOT going to get what I presume you to want any time soon. You should be happy that thus far Trump has made a couple of rather good moves, like gutting the "7th Floor" of State. Criminy, what in hell did you think would happen, even if Ron Paul had been elected - smoking crack on the Capitol steps with your M60 while a tranny prostitute takes your money and hums your knob for all to see? Not going to happen, even if it is what you want.

I'll repeat it: any turn toward liberty, however slight, is going to take a lot of time to realize. It took us 229 years to get here. What makes anyone think that in even 20 years or 30 under far better conditions than those we now face, that we would be able to wing naked in the streets with our 20mm cannon on our backs, blunts ablaze, as we ride hookers down the boulevard?

In case you have not been paying attention these past 20 years or so, the vast majority of Americans have NO INTEREST in freedom. None. Zero. Want to see the fat-assed lazy Americans jump into murderous action from one day to the next? Unleash freedom on them. They would be so gob-smacked with terror and disgust, they would be on the streets burning the nation to the waterline without so much as the first thought about what it was they were doing or why. Jesus, man, just look at what happened in Portland and Berkeley with the election of Trump, and that was a drop in the bucket compared with what would have happened had Ron Paul ascended the throne.

We are a TINY minority. Most on the "right" are still statists, the only notable difference between them and the left being that they want far prettier cages. Then there is the "left" half of America - a race of raving, cowardly nitwits who shriek "love" and "tolerance" while all at once being some of the most immeasurably hateful, intolerant, and fear-wracked people I have ever encountered. But toss real liberty onto them like napalm and see how quickly they would be sucking each other's dicks in support of the effort to burn the witches and affect the nation's thankful return to the pretty slavery with which they are so comfortable and calling it "freedom".

I really don't know what some of you folks think is going to happen when your libertarian messiah arrives to take his oath. Chances are good to better that his brains would be decorating a sidewalk in a city near you. I will be not at all surprised if this happens to Trump.

Trump ain't perfect, that is for damned sure, but it was going to be him or Hillary and I know Hillary was the worse of the two. I've said my peace about what intelligent men should do with Trump. Either act on it or tell me "fuck you". It's all good, I suppose. Eight years of the depressing pessimism brought on by that Kenyan bastard was enough for me, and methinks millions of others. I have no great expectations, but at least some hope that I would have otherwise not had if Hillary had gotten the nod.

As bad as these political times are, I would think that intelligent men would be glad that things didn't go as wrong as they might have with this most recent election. The system is rigged and fucked and lousy, we all grant that. That leaves YOU with a decision: make the best of it in whatever way you can, of pick up your rifle. If you're not going to join a militia and start shooting, then I can only say that you should zip it because you are wasting your breath and everyone else's time. Things are what they are. You either work within the current context, or you go to war. Doesn't matter to me which you choose, so long as you stop carping pointlessly, and by "you" I don't mean you personally, but the third person plural sense of the word, which means all of us. I'm not ready to start shooting, so I am sitting back and observing how Trump proceeds. State department slaughterhouse was a good move to start. Reversing Obama's gun control measure was good. There are others on the plus-side of the list, and then there's the "wall" and his stated consideration of doubling down on the drug war... both bad moves IMO. Well, if he is to fuck up, I call these relatively minor errors that might even stand correction in time. So thus far, I am not seeing the basis for all the howling I hear about Trump. OTOH, I'm not that smart, so who knows what I might be missing.

[undergroundrr]

Would you prefer Clinton? Another four of Obama?

Back in November, I would have said not much difference. Knowing what we do now about trump's intentions for the military and massive deficit spending, I would say less war with Obama and Clinton. This looks to be the biggest victory the MIC has ever had in electoral politics since FDR. trump was every bit as negligent in the Jan. 29 Yemen raid as Hillary was with Benghazi. He's got a whole military staff stacked and ready to put boots on the ground in Syria and Iran. And he thinks torture is a great idea.

A reversion to the good old drug war. More mass surveillance. trump even seems to want to give us continuing Obamacare instead of getting rid of it. In the past he's been okay with single payer. Who knows? Let's see if he goes there. Also, Fedgov under trump & DeVos is trying to get its paws into home education with an insidious voucher program. Bankers upon bankers upon bankers in the cabinet. trump wants to tax Americans 20% on imported goods.

Don't remember Obama being as bad as all those things, come to think of it. Everybody still has their guns. Yeah, he got Obamacare through, but only because of awesome conservative Supreme Court Justice John Roberts. Let's have some more of those awesome conservatives on the Court! Woohoo! Would Hillary have been worse? I don't think even she would have been the gift-wrapped delight to the MIC trump is trying to be.

Something positive about trump? It doesn't seem like he's going to do much about undocumented immigrants. Mass deporter Obama got rid of 2.5 million.

It is not an obvious conclusion, especially to conservatives or libertarians, that trump is superior to Hillary or Barry. Libertarians should be screaming louder than liberals about how lousy this guy is.

[ChristianAnarchist]

Back in November, I would have said not much difference. Knowing what we do now about trump's intentions for the military and massive deficit spending, I would say less war with Obama and Clinton. This looks to be the biggest victory the MIC has ever had in electoral politics since FDR. trump was every bit as negligent in the Jan. 29 Yemen raid as Hillary was with Benghazi. He's got a whole military staff stacked and ready to put boots on the ground in Syria and Iran. And he thinks torture is a great idea.

A reversion to the good old drug war. More mass surveillance. trump even seems to want to give us continuing Obamacare instead of getting rid of it. In the past he's been okay with single payer. Who knows? Let's see if he goes there. Also, Fedgov under trump & DeVos is trying to get its paws into home education with an insidious voucher program. Bankers upon bankers upon bankers in the cabinet. trump wants to tax Americans 20% on imported goods.

Don't remember Obama being as bad as all those things, come to think of it. Everybody still has their guns. Yeah, he got Obamacare through, but only because of awesome conservative Supreme Court Justice John Roberts. Let's have some more of those awesome conservatives on the Court! Woohoo! Would Hillary have been worse? I don't think even she would have been the gift-wrapped delight to the MIC trump is trying to be.

Something positive about trump? It doesn't seem like he's going to do much about undocumented immigrants. Mass deporter Obama got rid of 2.5 million.

It is not an obvious conclusion, especially to conservatives or libertarians, that trump is superior to Hillary or Barry. Libertarians should be screaming louder than liberals about how lousy this guy is.

agree...

[Ender]

Back in November, I would have said not much difference. Knowing what we do now about trump's intentions for the military and massive deficit spending, I would say less war with Obama and Clinton. This looks to be the biggest victory the MIC has ever had in electoral politics since FDR. trump was every bit as negligent in the Jan. 29 Yemen raid as Hillary was with Benghazi. He's got a whole military staff stacked and ready to put boots on the ground in Syria and Iran. And he thinks torture is a great idea.

A reversion to the good old drug war. More mass surveillance. trump even seems to want to give us continuing Obamacare instead of getting rid of it. In the past he's been okay with single payer. Who knows? Let's see if he goes there. Also, Fedgov under trump & DeVos is trying to get its paws into home education with an insidious voucher program. Bankers upon bankers upon bankers in the cabinet. trump wants to tax Americans 20% on imported goods.

Don't remember Obama being as bad as all those things, come to think of it. Everybody still has their guns. Yeah, he got Obamacare through, but only because of awesome conservative Supreme Court Justice John Roberts. Let's have some more of those awesome conservatives on the Court! Woohoo! Would Hillary have been worse? I don't think even she would have been the gift-wrapped delight to the MIC trump is trying to be.

Something positive about trump? It doesn't seem like he's going to do much about undocumented immigrants. Mass deporter Obama got rid of 2.5 million.

It is not an obvious conclusion, especially to conservatives or libertarians, that trump is superior to Hillary or Barry. Libertarians should be screaming louder than liberals about how lousy this guy is.

Tis true, tis sad; tis sad tis true.

[osan]

Back in November, I would have said not much difference. Knowing what we do now about trump's intentions for the military and massive deficit spending, I would say less war with Obama and Clinton. This looks to be the biggest victory the MIC has ever had in electoral politics since FDR. trump was every bit as negligent in the Jan. 29 Yemen raid as Hillary was with Benghazi. He's got a whole military staff stacked and ready to put boots on the ground in Syria and Iran. And he thinks torture is a great idea.

A reversion to the good old drug war. More mass surveillance. trump even seems to want to give us continuing Obamacare instead of getting rid of it. In the past he's been okay with single payer. Who knows? Let's see if he goes there. Also, Fedgov under trump & DeVos is trying to get its paws into home education with an insidious voucher program. Bankers upon bankers upon bankers in the cabinet. trump wants to tax Americans 20% on imported goods.

Don't remember Obama being as bad as all those things, come to think of it. Everybody still has their guns. Yeah, he got Obamacare through, but only because of awesome conservative Supreme Court Justice John Roberts. Let's have some more of those awesome conservatives on the Court! Woohoo! Would Hillary have been worse? I don't think even she would have been the gift-wrapped delight to the MIC trump is trying to be.

Something positive about trump? It doesn't seem like he's going to do much about undocumented immigrants. Mass deporter Obama got rid of 2.5 million.

It is not an obvious conclusion, especially to conservatives or libertarians, that trump is superior to Hillary or Barry. Libertarians should be screaming louder than liberals about how lousy this guy is.


You seem clear on it all. I am as yet not.

[CaptUSA]

You seem clear on it all. I am as yet not.

It's because you are not holding him to the same standard. If any other politician behaved in the same manner and took the same actions, you'd be apoplectic. Really - try putting Romney's name in place of Trump. You'll see that you're giving Trump far too much latitude. You've allowed your hope to replace your discernment. Never a good idea. (especially, when you have a guy in there who wrote a book about playing to people's hopes and fantasies in order to manipulate them.)

[Ender]

It's because you are not holding him to the same standard. If any other politician behaved in the same manner and took the same actions, you'd be apoplectic. Really - try putting Romney's name in place of Trump. You'll see that you're giving Trump far too much latitude. You've allowed your hope to replace your discernment. Never a good idea. (especially, when you have a guy in there who wrote a book about playing to people's hopes and fantasies in order to manipulate them.)

Yep.

[osan]

It's because you are not holding him to the same standard.

Your assume too much. Those who think any president has the capability of marching in, kicking ass, and taking names as he pleases is not living in the real world.

There is no potential president who would meet my normative standards, including Ron Paul. The standard to which I hold Trump does not yet come completely into play. As I have mentioned, I approve of his gutting of State. I disapprove of his speak of continuing the drug war and building that stupid wall on the southern border. Overall, he's done better than Obama this far in. I can only consider that an improvement and given how bad things have gone to feces, that's about as good a development for which I dare hope.


If any other politician behaved in the same manner and took the same actions, you'd be apoplectic.

Again, you assume too much. Much of my reaction stems from the fact that with Trump I at least hold the least glimmer of hope that things will not go further to hell. So far, so good. I readily admit that between the absence of TV and a wife recovering from nearly dying, I am not following current presidential events particularly closely.

But it seems I must repeat myself unto nausea: the wrongs with this land are not going to be corrected any time soon. The only ways they will ever see resolution will be through the good old reset event that disrupts the very fabric of society to the extent that all survivors find themselves in a sudden state of complete freedom, or we take the piecemeal approach with relatively small adjustments coming over the course of decades. If you see a faster path that doesn't result in massive death and destruction, please illuminate because I don't see it.

It will take several years just to ramp down from the welfare state without precipitating nationwide rioting by people who are generational parasites. We are talking about tens of millions of people who have no job, have never had one, and have no intention of ever getting one. Look at what the snowflakes did in Berkeley last month just because Milo Yiannopoulous was going to speak at the university. Now imagine taking away the only forms of sustenance millions of people have ever known.

Seriously turning our backs on tyranny is going to be fraught with risk and will almost certainly result in substantial death even in the best case where we go really slowly and with optimum skill.

I would LOVE to wake up tomorrow and find that Trump or someone has freed Americans. Even though my inner sociopath says "screw 'em" to all those who would certainly die as a result, another part of me suspects this might not be the best route to the ideal state of human social order.

What I am doing here is making an earnest attempt at being a realist, bearing in mind just how bad things really are - a truth most people have no interest in pondering, much less accepting.

What I do not understand about some people is their grumbling and bellyaching about how Trump hasn't delivered us from evil in toto. Yeah, I'm exaggerating a bit, but not that much. If they don't get everything they want, the president is the devil? I dunno... I suppose they could be right, but I don't see it. I'd have given Obama credit, had he done anything good - something else I don't see.


Really - try putting Romney's name in place of Trump.

What difference does the label make? I could call Trump Obama or Houdini, for all the good it would do.


You'll see that you're giving Trump far too much latitude.

No, D00d. I'm just giving him rope. Have I not in posts past repeatedly made it clear that I expect substantively good to have developed at the end of Trump's tenure, whether four or eight years? But I don't want to live the next four years as I did those with Obama. From the very beginning, Bammy had nothing to day that I wanted to hear. His rhetoric was violently repugnant to human rights and dignity. He was a liar and ignoramus up one side and down the other. People rant about how Trump is unqualified for the office. Well, please someone show me how Bammy was more so, because once again, I don't see it. So because Trump at least seems to make a minimal effort to talk some sense along certain lines, I choose to dare hope for something better, however thinly marginal it might be. If it proves not to come to pass, I will lose little, but at least I have dome basis for limited optimism - something I didn't have with Bammy.

If people want to hate Trump, go ahead. I'm not wasting my time with it until I have a firm basis for deciding. I'm not being a hypocrite, nor am I putting my head in the sand. I'm just waiting to see how things shake out. I don't see how I can be more reasonable than this, other than not expecting perfection from any man.



You've allowed your hope to replace your discernment.

I must be failing terribly at written communication, because I cannot imagine how anyone could otherwise come to this conclusion. You're confusing my patience with hope. Unlike so many around me, even here, I am willing to withhold broad judgment until I have a basis for making it. I've mentioned the few things Trump has done that are, if not perfect, a damned sight better than anything Bammy did. I've mentioned the things of which I've become aware that I think are grave errors. How much more must I do to be clear? It seems that if I'm not ready to soak him in gasoline and light a match, some of the folks here think I now live to suck his dick. I suppose it must be me because I just don't get it.


Never a good idea. (especially, when you have a guy in there who wrote a book about playing to people's hopes and fantasies in order to manipulate them.)

Never heard of this before. That aside, it is something certainly to take into consideration, but I'm not sure I'd condemn him on that basis alone.

In a month or three years I may well be cursing the Trump name - would not surprise me a whit. But not today, unless you can show me something extraordinary he has done that assassinates him in toto.

I've asked this before, and nobody's stepped up with an answer: how do you envision your perfect president proceeding that differs from Trump at the deep level, and why do you think they would be more successful?

[ChristianAnarchist]

well Osan, I'd love to hear on what points Ron Paul fails to live up to your standards...

[CaptUSA]

Too clever by half...


You(r) assume too much.


You'll see that you're giving Trump far too much latitude. You've allowed your hope to replace your discernment.


I must be failing terribly at written communication, because I cannot imagine how anyone could otherwise come to this conclusion. You're confusing my patience with hope.

And earlier in the same damned post:


Again, you assume too much. Much of my reaction stems from the fact that with Trump I at least hold the least glimmer of hope that things will not go further to hell.

and again, later in the post:



So because Trump at least seems to make a minimal effort to talk some sense along certain lines, I choose to dare hope for something better, however thinly marginal it might be. If it proves not to come to pass, I will lose little, but at least I have dome basis for limited optimism - something I didn't have with Bammy.


...Ok, enough with the demonstration. Try this:

President Romney has called for a stimulus package 25% BIGGER than Obama's $800 billion!
President Romney has promised the government will ensure "equal pay for equal work" (that's generally a democrat line)
President Romney has proposed in his budget the biggest increase in military spending EVER!
President Romney authorized an increase of 10,000 federal agents! With guns!!!
President Romney approved an illegal raid in a foreign country which resulted in the loss of American and foreign innocent lives!
President Romney is stocking his cabinet with hardcore neocons!
President Romney, in his first official action, selected Mike Pence as his running mate!
President Romney selected Jeff Sessions as his AG!! Not Commerce Secretary... Attorney friggin' General!!
President Romney has directed Congress to make sure "everyone" is insured!
President Romney falsely claimed the crime rate is higher than ever and used that as his impetus for signing executive orders to protect police and fight drugs!
President Romney hastily instituted a travel ban that made no sense, created a mess, and lost his argument in court.

And that was all in the first 40 days or so!!!!

(oh yeah, that was all Trump)

(on the plus side, he picked a fairly equitable SC nominee to replace Scalia and he's hinted at reducing some regulations at some point)


I've asked this before, and nobody's stepped up with an answer: how do you envision your perfect president proceeding that differs from Trump at the deep level, and why do you think they would be more successful?

Easy. You don't take things in the opposite direction. You either keep them status quo, or move them towards liberty. I'm not looking for a miracle. But when you have someone diametrically opposed to liberty on nearly all fronts, you have to call it out. You can't let your hope, regardless of how miniscule it may be, to obfuscate what is really being done. You don't grow government even more than your predecessor - who we all agree was horrible.

(and yeah, you should really read "The Art of the Deal" if you want to understand how this guy manipulates people based on their desires to believe what they want to believe.)

[osan]

Too clever by half...


http://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by osan http://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?p=6429193#post6429193)
You(r) assume too much.




http://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by CaptUSA http://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?p=6428860#post6428860)
You'll see that you're giving Trump far too much latitude. You've allowed your hope to replace your discernment.




http://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by osan http://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?p=6429193#post6429193)
I must be failing terribly at written communication, because I cannot imagine how anyone could otherwise come to this conclusion. You're confusing my patience with hope.



And earlier in the same damned post:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by osan http://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?p=6429193#post6429193)
Again, you assume too much. Much of my reaction stems from the fact that with Trump I at least hold the least glimmer of hope that things will not go further to hell.



and again, later in the post:


http://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by osan http://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?p=6429193#post6429193)
So because Trump at least seems to make a minimal effort to talk some sense along certain lines, I choose to dare hope for something better, however thinly marginal it might be. If it proves not to come to pass, I will lose little, but at least I have dome basis for limited optimism - something I didn't have with Bammy



You appear to assume here that patience and hope are mutually exclusive. It is certainly reasonable to infer this from what you have written, above.

May I not reasonably exercise the one while holding some epsilon of the other? Or is it your contention that I must choose between them?

Have I not made is plain that I fully recognize that Trump may be a colossally talented bullshitter who has pulled the wool over the nation's eyes? Have I not made plain that I fully expect to be disappointed? Have I not made it plain that I am already disappointed in his wall and the picture that is evolving regarding the drug war? What more does anyone want?



President Romney has called for a stimulus package 25% BIGGER than Obama's $800 billion!
President Romney has promised the government will ensure "equal pay for equal work" (that's generally a democrat line)
President Romney has proposed in his budget the biggest increase in military spending EVER!
President Romney authorized an increase of 10,000 federal agents! With guns!!!
President Romney approved an illegal raid in a foreign country which resulted in the loss of American and foreign innocent lives!
President Romney is stocking his cabinet with hardcore neocons!
President Romney, in his first official action, selected Mike Pence as his running mate!
President Romney selected Jeff Sessions as his AG!! Not Commerce Secretary... Attorney friggin' General!!
President Romney has directed Congress to make sure "everyone" is insured!
President Romney falsely claimed the crime rate is higher than ever and used that as his impetus for signing executive orders to protect police and fight drugs!
President Romney hastily instituted a travel ban that made no sense, created a mess, and lost his argument in court.

I will have to take your word on some of this. However, the "travel ban" as you call it, was not nonsensical as you have chosen to characterize it. Is it a liberty move? Not really, but it is a move that makes sense in a world where there are many who would bring us harm. It was temporary. Sure, how is "temporary" defined? OK, something by all means upon which to keep one's eyes. I've already called him on the drug war, as well as the walll

The world is in some dangerously sad shape at the moment, yet people seem to think that a president, ANY president, may waltz into office and fling open the doors of liberty wide on such a world wholly unprepared for il. This nation's people are not even close to being prepared for lfreedom. If you think they are, then you have not been paying attention. I you made me king today and by COB this evening I opened the flood gates, by April the land would be heading for ruin. Perhaps that is what we need, but most people probably don't want to see such a thing come to pass. As for me, I'm not sure where I stand on the issue, as I find myself torn between not wanting to see people hurt and my disdain for stoopid people.


llEasy. You don't take things in the opposite direction. You either keep them status quo, or move them towards liberty. I'm not looking for a miracle. Bul when you have someone diametrically opposed to liberty on nearly all fronts, you have to call it out. You can't let your hope, regardless of how miniscule it may be, to obfuscate what is really being done. You don't grow government even more than your predecessor - who we all agree was horrible.

And I say it is still too early to say what the net movement is. Hence, patience. Just a little.