Is President Trump selling out his base and embracing illegal immigration?

[johnwk]

Last night, President Trump, contrary to a number of fake news reports earlier in the day, did not indicate he may have more compassion for those who have invaded America’s borders than he has for American Citizens who have be made into tax slaves to support the economic needs of millions of foreigners who have invaded America’s borders, and are suffering the devastating effects of illegal immigration.

And just what are some of the devastating effects inflicted upon American citizens by illegal entrants? Aside from the criminal element which Trump seems to be genuinely concerned over and wants to address, millions of good paying jobs in the construction trades and other industries have been taken by illegal entrants who work off the books, below the going wage, and do not pay taxes on their eared wages. In addition, a considerable number of our nation’s emergency rooms have been bankrupted by illegal entrants. In Florida, nearly “one-third of Bethesda Hospital East’s 2,900 births each year are paid for by Emergency Medicaid, the category that covers mainly illegal immigrants.” See: How Undocumented Immigrants Sometimes Receive Medicaid Treatment (http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/how-undocumented-immigrants-sometimes-receive-medicaid-treatment/)


The article also points out “A 2007 medical article in the Journal of the American Medical Association reported that 99 percent of those who used Emergency Medicaid during a four-year period in North Carolina were thought to be illegal immigrants.”

Indeed, President Trump seems to have made the connection between the high cost of Medicaid and both illegal and legal immigration.

In addition, how many of our local schools have been overwhelmed and financially destroyed trying to keep up with the massive influx of both legal and illegal immigration? See Chelsea Schools Overwhelmed By Sudden Influx Of Immigrant Students (http://boston.cbslocal.com/2014/06/24/chelsea-schools-overwhelmed-with-sudden-influx-of-illegal-immigrants/):

June 24, 2014

”CHELSEA (CBS) – The national immigration crisis on the United States’ southern border is now impacting Massachusetts.

Tens of thousands of children have come across the border on their own in the past year. Many of them are now finding their way to communities around Boston.

Chelsea is ground zero for this wave of children, many undocumented immigrants, coming from Honduras, El Salvador and Guatemala.

“There’s been a dramatic increase for us from January of this year through the closing of schools which was last week,” says Chelsea Schools Superintendent Dr. Mary Bourque.”


Those who advocate legalizing the millions of illegal entrants who are now here so they can “come out of the shadows and pay taxes”, are in effect giving their nod of approval to the current devastating effects which these illegal entrants have, and are now, inflicting upon American citizens. This group would still, by-and large, if given legal status, be subsidized by American Citizens, they would still be working jobs which have been taken from American Citizens, their children would still be overwhelming our public schools and Emergency Rooms and Medicaid, and American Citizens would still be made into tax slaves to support the economic needs of this group which has invaded America’s borders.

Keep in mind the next time you hear that we need “comprehensive immigration reform,” that is code for screw American Citizens and ignore the Constitution and the rule of law.

JWK



American citizens are sick and tired of being made into tax slaves and forced to finance the personal economic needs of millions of foreigners who have invaded America’s borders.

[dean.engelhardt]

We will soon forget about this when he introduces Universal Healthcare.

[Superfluous Man]

millions of good paying jobs in the construction trades and other industries have been taken by illegal entrants who work off the books, below the going wage, and do not pay taxes on their eared wages.

Are you being serious?

[johnwk]

Are you being serious?

The facts are what they are!

JWK



There was a time not too long ago in New York when able-bodied people were ashamed to accept home relief, a program created by Franklin D. Roosevelt in 1931 when he was Governor. Now these ticks and fleas not only demand welfare, but use it to buy beer, wine, drugs and Lotto tickets.

[Superfluous Man]

The facts are what they are!


But you talk about them taking jobs like it's a bad thing.

[Madison320]

millions of good paying jobs in the construction trades and other industries have been taken by illegal entrants who work off the books, below the going wage, and do not pay taxes on their eared wages.

This may come as a shock to you but businesses exist to make a profit.

[Madison320]

But you talk about them taking jobs like it's a bad thing.

I agree.

This socialist, "down with the employer up, with the worker" crap gets annoying. Especially on this forum.

[showpan]

But you talk about them taking jobs like it's a bad thing.

It's not a bad thing....if you are a corporate billionaires transferring the country's wealth to yourself. Immigration is a just another tool used to artificially manipulate (lower) wages.

[undergroundrr]

It's not a bad thing....if you are a corporate billionaires transferring the country's wealth to yourself. Immigration is a just another tool used to artificially manipulate (lower) wages.

Why would that be artificial? And can I assume you also favor a minimum wage increase?

[showpan]

This may come as a shock to you but businesses exist to make a profit.

This may come as a shock to you, but business would not exist without workers

[Superfluous Man]

It's not a bad thing....if you are a corporate billionaires transferring the country's wealth to yourself. Immigration is a just another tool used to artificially manipulate (lower) wages.

You say that like you think it's a bad thing.

Am I in some kind of Twilight Zone where the Ron Paul forums turned into the Bernie Sanders forums?

[Superfluous Man]

This may come as a shock to you, but business would not exist without workers

A minute ago the problem was that there are too many workers.

Which is it?

[showpan]

Why would that be artificial? And can I assume you also favor a minimum wage increase?

It's an obvious manipulation of wages. More workers for less jobs equals lower pay. In economics, we call that supply and demand. And please do not EVER assume anything from me again thank you. It's a distraction to gain attention for yourself.

[showpan]

You say that like you think it's a bad thing.

Am I in some kind of Twilight Zone where the Ron Paul forums turned into the Bernie Sanders forums?

Am I in some kind of twilight zone where the Ron Paul forum has turned into the neocon zoone

[Superfluous Man]

More workers for less jobs equals lower pay. In economics, we call that supply and demand.

Exactly.

So, why call the simple working of the laws of economics "manipulation"?

There's no need to assume anything. You're putting your views on display all by yourself.

[Superfluous Man]

Am I in some kind of twilight zone where the Ron Paul forum has turned into the neocon zoone

Please look up what neocon means.

[showpan]

Exactly.

So, why call the simple working of the laws of economics "manipulation"?

There's no need to assume anything. You're putting your views on display all by yourself.

By letting millions of people into a country that has shipped millions of jobs out of the country is ......manipulation.

[undergroundrr]

In economics, we call that supply and demand.

Exactly. You're calling for an artificial manipulation of supply.

[showpan]

Please look up what neocon means.

please take an economics class

[showpan]

Exactly. You're calling for an artificial manipulation of supply.

I'm not the one that wants more immigrants coming here who will work longer hours for considerably lesser pay and no benefits

[undergroundrr]

I'm not the one that wants more immigrants coming here who will work longer hours for considerably lesser pay and no benefits

You're asking for the government to use force to manipulate the labor market. I'm arguing for a free, unmanipulated labor market.

Your stance is for an interventionist market restriction, Bernie Sanders style. Cool if you want to stand by it, but call it what it is.

[Madison320]

I'm not the one that wants more immigrants coming here who will work longer hours for considerably lesser pay and no benefits

Let me 'splain you.

You are under the liberal illusion that the evil business owner has unlimited funds.

Suppose a farmer employs 50 expensive legal workers and 50 cheap illegal ones. If you make him replace the cheap illegal workers with expensive legal ones he's going out of business and we now have 0 jobs. Comprende?

[juleswin]

please take an economics class

You are the one who seems to be in need of an economic lesson. You have to understand that demand and supply are always in a search for an equilibrium point with price. Without manipulation, workers (supply) will stream into areas where demand and price is high until it reaches the equilibrium point. The same happens when prices are too low, workers leave to other areas until where has been balanced out.

Think of a town where unskilled day labourers are earning $25/ hr under the table pay. The news of this extraordinary pay would get out and just about everybody in that town and surrounding area would come out and give the job a try. This would immediately swell the supply for day labourers and the price would continue to go down until some equilibrium point is hit.

Now the manipulation only comes in when there is an artificial barrier for the flow of workers.

[Superfluous Man]

please take an economics class

Are you under the impression that people who take economics classes are likely to come away from them thinking that protectionism is good for the economy?

Have you ever actually taken any? I have.

[pcosmar]

Is President Trump selling out his base?

Is he turning a profit?

His Base is his to sell,,

none of my business.

[showpan]

Let me splain a little something to you. If you have 100 workers making a decent wage while at the same time making a decent profit and then decide that you want more so you can buy a 4th vacation home over seas, you open the border to let 100 workers in who will work for half the pay while displacing the 100 workers who once made enough to buy new cars, TV's and homes. Now since those 100 workers no longer have a job, they need welfare to survive. So you take more taxes from another companies 100 workers to supplement the 100 workers who were replaced by people who are now making half the pay. Meanwhile,, the economy goes to crap since there are now 300 workers who make hardly anything and can't afford to buy new cars, TV's and homes.

Economics 101: without decent paying jobs, we can't afford to buy your Chinese crap that breaks as soon as the warranty is up

[undergroundrr]

Let me splain a little something to you. If you have 100 workers making a decent wage while at the same time making a decent profit and then decide that you want more so you can buy a 4th vacation home over seas, you open the border to let 100 workers in who will work for half the pay while displacing the 100 workers who once made enough to buy new cars, TV's and homes. Now since those 100 workers no longer have a job, they need welfare to survive. So you take more taxes from another companies 100 workers to supplement the 100 workers who were replaced by people who are now making half the pay. Meanwhile,, the economy goes to crap since there are now 300 workers who make hardly anything and can't afford to buy new cars, TV's and homes.

Economics 101: without decent paying jobs, we can't afford to buy your Chinese crap that breaks as soon as the warranty is up

Property Rights 101: I (or you), as a businessman, should be able to "import" 10,000 workers from wherever I want, to work for whatever pay we agree on.

[silverhandorder]

Relax snowflakes he is not selling out his base. He is taking you in for the ride that is all.

[CPUd]

He's definitely taking someone for a ride

[silverhandorder]

Also I think in the interim it is a good thing to focus on rebuilding industry in the country. Losing cheap labor does hurt profits and economy. However you can't ignore voters. As in people who vote just voted for economic protections for them selves. You might as well be upset that we vote. :)

[CaptUSA]

By letting millions of people into a country that has shipped millions of jobs out of the country is ......manipulation.

Lol - do you even buy the crap you're selling? Here's a primer for you... If you're "letting" something happen that would happen without your interference, then you are not "manipulating". That's the exact opposite of "manipulation".

[CaptUSA]

Let me splain a little something to you. If you have 100 workers making a decent wage while at the same time making a decent profit and then decide that you want more so you can buy a 4th vacation home over seas, you open the border to let 100 workers in who will work for half the pay while displacing the 100 workers who once made enough to buy new cars, TV's and homes. Now since those 100 workers no longer have a job, they need welfare to survive. So you take more taxes from another companies 100 workers to supplement the 100 workers who were replaced by people who are now making half the pay. Meanwhile,, the economy goes to crap since there are now 300 workers who make hardly anything and can't afford to buy new cars, TV's and homes.

Economics 101: without decent paying jobs, we can't afford to buy your Chinese crap that breaks as soon as the warranty is up

Krugman?! Is that you? Demand-side economics?! Central-planning? Do you even Ron Paul, bro?

[Philmanoman]

silverhored and mordan are some of the dumbest posters I've seen on these forums.

[angelatc]

But you talk about them taking jobs like it's a bad thing.

My freaking husband looked for work for 4 years before he found a job. Fuck the Mexicans.

[angelatc]

You're asking for the government to use force to manipulate the labor market..

The government already manipulates the labor force. If we were talking about abolishing the welfare state as well as the minimum wage, I'd be in.

But none of those things are happening. Fuck the Mexicans - send them home. Housing prices come down, wages go up.

[TheCount]

Am I in some kind of Twilight Zone where the Ron Paul forums turned into the Bernie Sanders forums?When people say that the alt-right are national socialists, it's not hyperbole.

[TheCount]

More workers for less jobs equals lower pay.Does more people mean less jobs, the same number of jobs, or more jobs?

[Madison320]

The government already manipulates the labor force. If we were talking about abolishing the welfare state as well as the minimum wage, I'd be in.

But none of those things are happening. $#@! the Mexicans - send them home. Housing prices come down, wages go up.

Yeah! Power to the workers! Who needs those evil business owners trying to make a profit!

[rpfocus]

silverhored and mordan are some of the dumbest posters I've seen on these forums.

I second that.

[CaseyJones]

H.R. 140 The Birthright Citizenship Act of 2017

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?508142-Action-Alert-H-R-140-Birthright-Citizenship-Act-of-2017

[The Northbreather]

Let me splain a little something to you. If you have 100 workers making a decent wage while at the same time making a decent profit and then decide that you want more so you can buy a 4th vacation home over seas, you open the border to let 100 workers in who will work for half the pay while displacing the 100 workers who once made enough to buy new cars, TV's and homes. Now since those 100 workers no longer have a job, they need welfare to survive. So you take more taxes from another companies 100 workers to supplement the 100 workers who were replaced by people who are now making half the pay. Meanwhile,, the economy goes to crap since there are now 300 workers who make hardly anything and can't afford to buy new cars, TV's and homes.

Economics 101: without decent paying jobs, we can't afford to buy your Chinese crap that breaks as soon as the warranty is up

The function of the free market is not to gaurantee/mandate "decent paying jobs".

It's function is to allow unrestricted competition resulting in the the highest quality goods and services at the lowest price for the consumer.

[undergroundrr]

But none of those things are happening. $#@! the Mexicans - send them home.

Well, news flash. That's definitely not happening. And by the way, Mexicans are third in new arrivals after Chinese and Indians. Be sure to give everybody their proper expletive.

[juleswin]

I have a sick feeling that some of the people here are not quite ready for a free market. They want things to return to the way things were before. Whatever that means.

[dannno]

It's really disappointing going through a thread on Ron Paul Forums and seeing that both sides are wrong.

The anti-Trump folks are wrong because they are insinuating that all of the illegal immigration that is occurring is the result of the free market working. No. It's not. Immigration is a huge government program that is negatively impacting American workers in several ways. For one, they have to pay for the government services of those who are and aren't working. Secondly, they have to compete against laborers who are being paid under the table and aren't paying taxes. This IS unfair competition.

On the other hand, some of the Trump supporting folks are wrong because they assume that more labor is necessarily a bad thing. In a free market, it is not a bad thing because people will only come if there are jobs that they are willing and able to do it for less. If they take those jobs, then that frees up the rest of the labor to produce other types of goods and services. This creates new jobs and greater variation in products and services, often leading to increases in standard of living. In a free market, it is easy to transition to new job sectors because you don't have regulations and government licensing schemes.

So clearly the problem is we don't have a free market, and the government immigration program is producing a negative outcome for citizens in this country. That is why Trump supporters feel entitled to a secure border, because we have been and are paying for this damn thing and should have priority over those who have not.

If Trump allows illegal immigrants to work and pay taxes, that would be a step forward in creating a more equitable situation for everyone, and it sounds like he might be doing something along those lines. So I'm not sure why everybody is complaining. STFU and MAGA.

[TheCount]

If Trump allows illegal immigrants to work and pay taxes, that would be a step forward in creating a more equitable situation for everyone, and it sounds like he might be doing something along those lines. So I'm not sure why everybody is complaining. STFU and MAGA.Many Trump supporters will not accept this solution and continue to complain because the focus on the economic problems resulting from immigration is just a smokescreen for their real reasons for opposing immigration and immigration reform.

[H. E. Panqui]

...ugh...the biggest, most real (but of course NEVER honestly discussed) impediment to 'a free market' is the abominable monetary order where owner$ of corporation$ get 'the money' (the unit of account...virtually one half of every 'economic transition' here in the US) for nothing and the rest of us are forced to suck 'their' arse$ to get $ome for ourselves!...REALITY..

...'BOTH' sides of this stinking strawman political issue are flailing at the leaves of the tree of evil...NEVER striking the root$!...UGH!!!

...krugmanites and ludwigites need to put away their stinking theorie$ and get some monetary realism...ugh..

...i sense that if chattel slavery still existed many many goddamned republicrat fools would still be yapping about/praising 'the free market' ...oblivious to the reality that truly 'free markets' and 'slavery' are diametrically opposed..good grief!..

"While boasting of our noble deeds we're careful to conceal the ugly fact that by an iniquitous money system we have nationalized a system of oppression which, though more refined, is not less cruel than the old system of chattel slavery." (greeley)

[angelatc]

Well, news flash. That's definitely not happening. And by the way, Mexicans are third in new arrivals after Chinese and Indians. Be sure to give everybody their proper expletive.

Yeah, right. I totally believe that more INdians are coming here than Mexicans. If that is true, it's only because Mexico is empty. In any event , fuck them all. I got my college education paid for by an employer who needed educated people.

Thanks to the open borders lobby, now my fellow taxpayers and I get to pay the tuition for illegal immigrants while employers fly in people who were educated in a socialist system.

This isn't a free market. This is rape.
.

[angelatc]

Many Trump supporters will not accept this solution and continue to complain because the focus on the economic problems resulting from immigration is just a smokescreen for their real reasons for opposing immigration and immigration reform.

And the liberals here will ignore their legitimate arguments and just call them racists.

[Brian4Liberty]

If Trump allows illegal immigrants to work and pay taxes, that would be a step forward in creating a more equitable situation for everyone, and it sounds like he might be doing something along those lines. So I'm not sure why everybody is complaining. STFU and MAGA.

OK, I'll be Zippy and be contrarian. Let's imagine the borders are open completely, and the labor pool is completely elastic, flexible and without any favoritism (fantasy scenario, but we'll start there).

The proposal that all labor must then conform to all taxes, regulations, mandates and bureaucracy still has a problem. You have the same essential conflict: hiring people under the table (illegally) vs. the inconvenience, overhead and costs of full legal compliance.

Perhaps instead of making "illegal" labor "legal", we should work on making legal labor less burdensome.

[angelatc]

On the other hand, some of the Trump supporting folks are wrong because they assume that more labor is necessarily a bad thing. In a free market, it is not a bad thing because people will only come if there are jobs that they are willing to do for less.

This isn't a free market. What we have now is simply a cluster fuck.

[undergroundrr]

This is rape.

Well, anti-business rhetoric has been a theme of anti-immigrationists here. But you've definitely taken it to a new level.

Don't get me wrong. I understand your personal pain, I understand employment woes (intimately). But you don't have the right to a labor market custom-designed to your liking by government force.

I do however believe you have a right to hire whoever you want, from wherever you want, for whatever price and conditions you and the worker agree on. And I believe anybody competing with you has the same right.

[angelatc]

OK, I'll be Zippy and be contrarian. Let's imagine the borders are open completely, and the labor pool is completely elastic, flexible and without any favoritism (fantasy scenario, but we'll start there).

The proposal that all labor must then conform to all taxes, regulations, mandates and bureaucracy still has a problem. You have the same essential conflict: hiring people under the table (illegally) vs. the inconvenience, overhead and costs of full legal compliance.

Perhaps instead of making "illegal" labor "legal", we should work on making legal labor less burdensome.

That's what Reagan was going to do. He gave everybody amnesty and then he was going to lower taxes and regulations. At this point, employers have to pay so much in benefits to legitimate employees that our wages will never rise.

[undergroundrr]

OK, I'll be Zippy and be contrarian. Let's imagine the borders are open completely, and the labor pool is completely elastic, flexible and without any favoritism (fantasy scenario, but we'll start there).

The proposal that all labor must then conform to all taxes, regulations, mandates and bureaucracy still has a problem. You have the same essential conflict: hiring people under the table (illegally) vs. the inconvenience, overhead and costs of full legal compliance.

Perhaps instead of making "illegal" labor "legal", we should work on making legal labor less burdensome.

Right now, due to labor regulations, taxation, etc. what you have is a prohibition on labor, just like a prohibition on drugs, alcohol or guns.

Guess what? There's a black market.

Legalize it.

[angelatc]

Well, anti-business rhetoric has been a theme of anti-immigrationists here. But you've definitely taken it to a new level.

Don't get me wrong. I understand your personal pain, I understand employment woes (intimately). But you don't have the right to a labor market custom-designed to your liking by government force.

I do however believe you have a right to hire whoever you want, from wherever you want, for whatever price and conditions you and the worker agree on. And I believe anybody competing with you has the same right.

And you don't have the right to insist that there are no rules. Maybe there shouldn't be, but there are. I own a freaking business. I can't hire anybody I want to. . Ido not have that right. Again,maybe I should but I don't. If I can't do it, then you're goddammed right I'm going to bitch about the people who are cheating the system.

[Brian4Liberty]

That's what Reagan was going to do. He gave everybody amnesty and then he was going to lower taxes and regulations. At this point, employers have to pay so much in benefits to legitimate employees that our wages will never rise.

That lowering taxes phase always seems to disappear.

Phase 1 - Open immigration.
Phase 2 - ?
Phase 3 - Profit!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zc4bGkU05o

[angelatc]

Right now, due to labor regulations, taxation, etc. what you have is a prohibition on labor, just like a prohibition on drugs, alcohol or guns.

Guess what? There's a black market.

Legalize it.

What will happen is that they'll legalize the illegals and then raise the minimum wage. Wash, rinse repeat. And those third-worlders are not libertarians. They aren't coming here for freedom. They're coming here to cash in.

[Madison320]

Yeah, right. I totally believe that more INdians are coming here than Mexicans. If that is true, it's only because Mexico is empty. In any event , $#@! them all. I got my college education paid for by an employer who needed educated people.

Thanks to the open borders lobby, now my fellow taxpayers and I get to pay the tuition for illegal immigrants while employers fly in people who were educated in a socialist system.

This isn't a free market. This is rape.
.

You're right, the problem is we don't have a free market. It's not immigration.

[Madison320]

What will happen is that they'll legalize the illegals and then raise the minimum wage. Wash, rinse repeat. And those third-worlders are not libertarians. They aren't coming here for freedom. They're coming here to cash in.

Make them sign a document that they won't take government handouts.

[angelatc]

You're right, the problem is we don't have a free market. It's not immigration.

It is the combination of the two. There's no solid support for abolishing market restrictions. Didn't you hear Zippy the other day when Trump encroached on Obama's water regulations? Even though they're 3 years old, repealing them means all our water will be poison.

There is never going to be a free country. That's certainly something we should work towards, but in the purest form it is as much Utopian as the kind of Socialism that doesn't end with starvation.

Ron Paul clearly states we cannot have open borders and a welfare state, and he didn't run on an open borders platform.

[angelatc]

Make them sign a document that they won't take government handouts.

Make them pay taxes but not qualify for benefits? I don't understand how that would work.

[TheCount]

And the liberals here will ignore their legitimate arguments and just call them racists.I'm the liberal when you're the one who thinks that it is the role of the government to protect your husband from labor market competition.

[Madison320]

Make them pay taxes but not qualify for benefits? I don't understand how that would work.

Grant them immediate legal status if they sign a waiver that they'll pay taxes but not get benefits. For many it would still be a lot better than where they came from.

[angelatc]

I'm the liberal when you're the one who thinks that it is the role of the government to protect your husband from labor market competition.

No,you're the liberal creating strawman after strawman.

[H. E. Panqui]

...as one wag put it, 'if the people coming to america made their living doing what YOU do for a living you'd stfu about 'the free :rolleyes: market' in a hurry'.. ;)

[TheCount]

No,you're the liberal creating strawman after strawman.Is that not what you're arguing? What do you think the role of the government should be in the labor market?

[Ender]

Wow.

So much misunderstanding of capitalism.

Real capitalism is free market, getting the gov out of business, and REAL MONEY.

When we have all three and especially a dollar that is backed and not just a keystroke on a computer, then capitalism can really do it's job.

Everybody wins.

[angelatc]

Grant them immediate legal status if they sign a waiver that they'll pay taxes but not get benefits. For many it would still be a lot better than where they came from.

I think that's a huge step in the wrong direction. Isn't that serfdom? How long do you think that would last? Good heavens, our government thinks people who have never worked should get benefits.

[angelatc]

Is that not what you're arguing?

No. I am arguing that the government is already involved in the labor market. Let me know when the minimum wages and Obamacare are abolished, then we can talk about open borders.

As per Ron Paul we can't have a welfare state and open borders. Even if there was 100% agreement in Congress it would take decades to roll back the welfare state. It should take that long to open the borders.

[Zippyjuan]

Grant them immediate legal status if they sign a waiver that they'll pay taxes but not get benefits. For many it would still be a lot better than where they came from.

If they work or buy things or pay rent, they do pay taxes. They are not eligible for federal government benefits if they are in the country illegally so your conditions are already met.

[Madison320]

Let me splain a little something to you. If you have 100 workers making a decent wage while at the same time making a decent profit and then decide that you want more so you can buy a 4th vacation home over seas, you open the border to let 100 workers in who will work for half the pay while displacing the 100 workers who once made enough to buy new cars, TV's and homes. Now since those 100 workers no longer have a job, they need welfare to survive. So you take more taxes from another companies 100 workers to supplement the 100 workers who were replaced by people who are now making half the pay. Meanwhile,, the economy goes to crap since there are now 300 workers who make hardly anything and can't afford to buy new cars, TV's and homes.

Economics 101: without decent paying jobs, we can't afford to buy your Chinese crap that breaks as soon as the warranty is up

You have two major things wrong in this post:

It's not up to you what a "decent" profit is. It is up to the owner.

The idea that the more you pay your workers the more it benefits the economy is classic broken window fallacy. Using your logic we should raise the minimum wage to $100 an hour. All those rich workers would buy lots of stuff and the economy would be booming.

[undergroundrr]

Make them pay taxes but not qualify for benefits? I don't understand how that would work.

That's already happening. They're paying consumption and property taxes with all that dough they're banking from building Trump Tower, mowing Mitt Romney's lawn, etc. In many cases, they're having Fed Income Tax and SS taken out of their paychecks and then never filing a 1040 to get it back.

Then they end up using less benefits than native-born Americans. https://www.cato.org/publications/economic-development-bulletin/poor-immigrants-use-public-benefits-lower-rate-poor

[Madison320]

I'd like to know how many of you are in favor of punishing businesses for hiring illegals. That really pisses me off. I'm not against some control over immigration but that should be the government's job, not private companies. If you happen to catch an illegal speeding or committing a crime then deport them but don't force businesses to be agents of the government.

[TheCount]

No. I am arguing that the government is already involved in the labor market. Let me know when the minimum wages and Obamacare are abolished, then we can talk about open borders.

Minimum wages and Obamacare do not affect the situation at hand, unless you're contending that your husband was/is willing to compete with immigrants for a wage below the minimum and without benefits.



As per Ron Paul we can't have a welfare state and open borders.None of the reasons why that is true involve labor market competition. They're budgetary concerns.

[Brian4Liberty]

"First, they came for the farm workers, and I did not speak out—Because I was not a farm worker." ;)


...as one wag put it, 'if the people coming to america made their living doing what YOU do for a living you'd stfu about 'the free :rolleyes: market' in a hurry'.. ;)

[angelatc]

That's already happening. They're paying consumption and property taxes with all that dough they're banking from building Trump Tower, mowing Mitt Romney's lawn, etc. In many cases, they're having Fed Income Tax and SS taken out of their paychecks and then never filing a 1040 to get it back.

]

Consumption taxes aren't the problem. Unless they're consuming more than their share. But they drive on the roads and send their kids to school, so they're clearly consuming public resources.

The federal government will issue an ITIN to anybody, and illegals get their tax refunds. For decades, they filed and got more than they paid in via the refundable child tax credits, but I think the government finally quashed that.

[Madison320]

If they work or buy things or pay rent, they do pay taxes. They are not eligible for federal government benefits if they are in the country illegally so your conditions are already met.

I'm saying grant them immediate legal status if they waive federal benefits. Now that I think about it, it would have to be their children also.

An even better idea would be to deny voting privileges to anyone who has accepted benefits in the last year. That would break the cycle of "vote for me and I'll steal for you".

[Madison320]

...as one wag put it, 'if the people coming to america made their living doing what YOU do for a living you'd stfu about 'the free market' in a hurry'..


"First, they came for the farm workers, and I did not speak out—Because I was not a farm worker." ;)

What does that mean? You're against free markets?

[angelatc]

...as one wag put it, 'if the people coming to america made their living doing what YOU do for a living you'd stfu about 'the free :rolleyes: market' in a hurry'.. ;)

Well that's pretty insulting. Was that "wag" implying that we don't work enough to deserve a decent living?

Or perhaps that we should be content to squat with 13 other people in a mobile home with no running water?

[H. E. Panqui]

What does that mean? You're against free markets?

:cool:

...i'm no more against 'free markets' than i am unicorns..it's frivolous/ridiculous to be evoking 'free markets'...there aren't any...and NEVER have been...

...furthermore if you want a 'free market' start with the decidedly unfree market in money creation. banking, etc..anything else exposes one as a trifling republicrat radio fool....

[Madison320]

:cool:

...i'm no more against 'free markets' than i am unicorns..it's frivolous/ridiculous to be evoking 'free markets'...there aren't any...and NEVER have been...

...furthermore if you want a 'free market' start with the decidedly unfree market in money creation. banking, etc..anything else exposes one as a trifling republicrat radio fool....

Hey! The quote said "you'd stfu about the free market' in a hurry". What was I supposed to think?

I totally agree about the fiat monetary system.

[H. E. Panqui]

Well that's pretty insulting. Was that "wag" implying that we don't work enough to deserve a decent living?

Or perhaps that we should be content to squat with 13 other people in a mobile home with no running water?

...i think what he means is that if, for one example, the people mass-migrating across the border were licensed lawyers, the pro-immigration lawyers now apologizing for/facilitating mass immigration probably wouldn't be apologizing/facilitating so much....sorry, maybe i could put it less clumsily...

[undergroundrr]

Ron Paul clearly states we cannot have open borders and a welfare state, and he didn't run on an open borders platform.

That's partially true. But he also never called for stopping immigration in any way, shape or form. Generally, he explained why benefits act as a magnet for illegals.

Start at about 7:30 in today's Liberty Report and you can review it. http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?508144-Ron-s-Tweetstorm-Was-Trump-s-Speech-Libertarian&p=6425754#post6425754

Note that he's never suggested mass deportation. He never scapegoats the "illegals." Dr. Paul always shines the spotlight on government. Government is impoverishing us

I'm a proponent on rolling back the welfare state or denying benefits to non-American citizens. Here's a plan that's constitutional and practical: https://www.cato.org/publications/policy-analysis/building-wall-around-welfare-state-instead-country

But I've also come to the conclusion (from data) that we benefit from more open borders even when you take into account the hand-outs, black market labor, etc. There's no downside to more freedom of movement for everybody on Earth.

[Brian4Liberty]

What does that mean? You're against free markets?

It was supposed to be ambiguous, humorous and ironic all at the same time.

True free markets are rare.

"Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist." :)

[johnwk]

Wow.

So much misunderstanding of capitalism.

Real capitalism is free market, getting the gov out of business, and REAL MONEY.

When we have all three and especially a dollar that is backed and not just a keystroke on a computer, then capitalism can really do it's job.

Everybody wins.

The word "capitalism" was popularized by Karl Marx and used to attack "free enterprise" and "free market" . Keep in mind the ugly word "free" which socialists, communists and progressives hate with a passion. The term "capitalism" is also not to be found during time period when our Constitution was framed and ratified.

Let's keep with the phrases "free market" and free enterprise. Just a suggestion!

JWK

[johnwk]

This may come as a shock to you but businesses exist to make a profit.

And your point is with regard to what you quoted?


JWK

[Madison320]

And your point is with regard to what you quoted?


JWK

Here's your quote:

"millions of good paying jobs in the construction trades and other industries have been taken by illegal entrants who work off the books, below the going wage, and do not pay taxes on their eared wages."

You make it sound like this a bad thing. That the business owner's reason for existence is to provide high paying jobs and that illegals are taking it.

[Ender]

The word "capitalism" was popularized by Karl Marx and used to attack "free enterprise" and "free market" . Keep in mind the ugly word "free" which socialists, communists and progressives hate with a passion. The term "capitalism" is also not to be found during time period when our Constitution was framed and ratified.

Let's keep with the phrases "free market" and free enterprise. Just a suggestion!

JWK

Maybe.....maybe not......


The Sad Decline Of The Word "Capitalism"

Alejandro Chafuen ,

Contributor

I cover think tanks, scholars, and champions of innovation.

Late last week in Orlando, a passionate champion of economic freedom, Rep. Trey Radel (R-Fl.) said, “Capitalism has turned into a dirty word” to a gathering of 500 pro-capitalist think tank operatives during the closing speech of the 36th Resource Bank. The conclave is one of the two largest annual events for U.S. market-oriented think tanks; the other being organized by State Policy Network.

If “capitalism” is viewed as a dirty word, should think tanks “clean it up” or abandon it? Like other Americans who were not born in the United States, I still mourn the loss of the word “liberal.” In most of the world the word means nearly the opposite of what it means here. I doubt that the word capitalism will be “stolen” but should we mind if it gets lost? During my college years I was more than satisfied with the arguments in favor of capitalism provided in “Capitalism: the Unknown Ideal” by Ayn Rand, and Ludwig von Mises’ The Anti-Capitalist Mentality. In his great treatise, Human Action, Mises recognized that “the system of free enterprise has been dubbed capitalism in order to deprecate and to smear it.” He chose nevertheless to keep the word and redeem it.

Although Karl Marx did not create the word, it was after his work “Das Kapital” (1867) when the term “capitalism” began to be widely used to describe an economic system based on private property as the means of production. Marx remains the great labeler: “capital,” “the capitalist” and “the capitalist system of production” appear repeatedly in his writings.

Ludwig von Mises was never shy about engaging in intellectual battles with the other side on their turf and with their choice of words. He wrote that the concept of capitalism “if it means anything, it means the market economy” and that modern capitalism is “essentially mass production for the needs of the masses.” Audiences view terms such as “a system of free enterprise,” the “market economy,” and “mass production for the needs of the masses,” much more favorably than “capitalism.”

In other regions of the world, the word also has its problems. When Hernando de Soto, founder and leader of the Instituto Libertad y Democracia in Peru, was doing his field work, he asked small businessmen and street vendors if they were capitalists. Their answer was “No! Capitalists are those up there” (“los que están arriba”), which means those who are above or control “the law.” This is similar to today’s term “crony capitalism.”

Scholars from think tanks and the academy made important contributions to refocus the definition of the word and move it beyond the material aspects of economics. Israel Kirzner finds that discovery, or the unforeseen way to create wealth, is the essence of capitalism. The American Enterprise Institute’s Michael Novak finds that the human mind is the treasure and foundation of capitalism. He makes an effort to use as root the Latin word caput, or head. Discovery, innovation, creativity are the essence of capitalism while the private ownership of the means of production provides its environment but not its ends. “The distinctive, defining difference of the capitalist economy is enterprise: the habit of employing human wit to invent new goods and services, and to discover new and better ways to bring them to the broadest possible public,” says Novak.

Unfortunately, Kirzner and Novak are in the minority. Until their arguments crowd out the others, more allies of freedom will avoid the term. Going back to the Heritage Resource Bank meeting, only one person from almost 500 represented an organization which uses “capitalism” in its name: “Enlightened Capitalism.” Intellectuals seem obliged to use adjectives: “state capitalism” and “crony capitalism” for the bad; “conscious” or “democratic” for the good. The great investor, Sir John Templeton, decades ago began using the term “people’s capitalism” for a system which allows and encourages wide dissemination of property and wealth. That also has power. His son, Dr. Jack Templeton, correctly points out that capitalism was seldom used during the era of the ascendancy of free enterprise ideas from the Founding Fathers through the beginning of the 20th century.

Not everyone is giving up. One example is Fred L. Smith, chairman and founder of the Competitive Enterprise Institute, who has launched the Center for Advancing Capitalism. One of his goals is to mobilize businessmen to promote capitalism. For Smith, there’s no need for adjectives – only a capitalism constrained by rule of law and limited government deserves that name. On a similar crusade internationally, the former Czech Republic president, Vaclav Klaus, believes that giving up on the word capitalism is tantamount to surrendering to the enemy. Like Klaus, I am not fond of giving up on battles and although I seldom use the word, I still like the concept of “capitalism” to describe some aspects of the economic system. I sometimes even wear a tie that Steve Forbes gave me with the inscription “capitalist tool.”

Should we care if we lose the term capitalism? Assessing its popularity, or lack thereof, I recently reviewed the mission of 25 leading market oriented think tanks around the globe. I could not find a single one using the term. “Free enterprise,” “free-markets” “free-economy” and better yet “free society” will continue to crowd out “capitalism,” if not as a system, at least as a word.

[undergroundrr]

Yep. I'm here to put in a good word for capitalism. Love it.

[afwjam]

I love capitalism. I hate lying cowards like Trump.

[Swordsmyth]

But you talk about them taking jobs like it's a bad thing.

I see you are not one of the millions who can't find decent work.:mad:

[H. E. Panqui]

Yep. I'm here to put in a good word for capitalism. Love it.

:confused:

...i'm here to put a bad word in for the present, past and sadly, probably future $ystem, where a relatively tiny 'bank$ter class' gets a grotesquely huge portion of 'the newly-created money' in 'the first round of spending'...screw this form of 'free :rolleyes: market capitalism'...'justice'/a just market is a much better goal than a 'free :rolleyes: market' 'capitalist' society of many monetary ignoramuses enslaved/controlled by a few secret-squirrel banksters...you know, like it is NOW and has been for eons...

..ime, 'the capitalists,' (and the rest) NEVER talk honestly or knowledgeably about 'the money thing'...

...remember, money is, largely, the point$ in 'the great $coreboard of life'...'money' is one half of 'market transactions'...money is, by far, the most ubiquitous man-made market commodity...is it too much to ask for some honest scorekeeper$ and 'an economic game' with some sane rules where people are treated equally/fairly?..must we have a stinking game where 'the leading' capitalists, socialists, communists, etc., get awarded illion$ of free point$ while the rest of us must suck their arses to get point$?

...IF NEW MONEY IS TO BE PRODUCED/CREATED SHOULDN'T WE ALL GET AN EQUAL SHARE?...WHY NOT??...and doesn't this simple change end much of what the radio-republicrats and other monetary ignoramuses term 'the welfare problem'?...

...just a thought..

[showpan]

Absolutely go after the employers who hire them. What they are doing is illegal....period. I worked in Vegas for 15 years during one of the biggest building booms this country has ever seen. Hispanics at one point outnumbered Caucasians making us the minority. I have dealt with them directly and can tell you from first hand experience that at least half of the ones that came there to work, did so illegally, using fake SS numbers and filing EXEMPT on their W-2's. So they didn't pay taxes. Only sales taxes. Then they would bring their wives and claim they weren't married with their 5-6 kids who would qualify for assistance as soon as they enrolled them in school. If they had another baby here, they didn't have to pay anything and got everything. The system encourages this. They are still doing it today and most of the ones I talked to said they would never become citizens even after Amnesty because they make too much money being illegals by collecting welfare and not paying any taxes...lol...Thats why Trump has so many supporters. Anyone that has been around this knows whats going on. What they fail to admit though is the wall won't stop anyone except the ones who can't afford the plane ticket and the feeble minded who hasn't figured out how to use a shovel or a ladder...lol...the ONLY way to stop this is to punish the greedy employers who hire them. Yeah, that's right...GREED. There is plenty of money in construction to pay your employees well and still make a really good profit. A non-union contractor bids work at the same rate a union contractor does. The difference is that union companies pay their people a decent wage, insurance and retirement while the non union contractor POCKETS the difference. Those that hire illegals under the table are making everyone else like me pay for them!!!

End the FED, end the drug wars, end regime change, end NAFTA, abolish the IRS, shut down all the 3 letter depts and then we are moving in the right direction.

But eliminating Glass-Steagall and the renewed attack on Dodd-Frank causes this.....

http://wallstreetonparade.com/2017/01/u-s-quietly-drops-bombshell-wall-street-banks-have-2-trillion-european-exposure/

[showpan]

And another thing, they aren't going to send the illegals home and they aren't going to end NAFTA anytime soon because they don't want Americans working. They want us all on welfare and food stamps because they make MILLIONS every month. the more people using these programs, the more they make.

http://reason.com/blog/2014/02/18/big-banks-food-stamps-and-the-trouble-wi

[undergroundrr]

As I said in another thread, what you have here in essence is a government prohibition, just like drugs, alcohol or guns. But it's labor that's being prohibited. Therefore, a black market arises. There's crime, exploitation and all kinds of nasty unintended consequences.

Legalize it.

[Superfluous Man]

I see you are not one of the millions who can't find decent work.:mad:

That's not it at all.

What I am is one of the millions who believes that the free market, not central management, is what will revitalize the economy.

[Superfluous Man]

Absolutely go after the employers who hire them. What they are doing is illegal....period.

It's only illegal according to unjust laws. And unjust laws are no laws at all.

[showpan]

sry, but the real crime is letting in 20 people who shouldn't even be here compete for one job that belongs to a citizen of THIS country. How is THAT fair!!! Of course it's artificial manipulation of wages because they only made 30 cents per hr where they came from and will work for half what an American worker will make. He won't complain about things like breaks, over time, insurance, retirement, asbestos this and silica that either unlike you lazy over payed snowflakes In the meantime, as a company owner, just because I only pay half the wages I had to pay, if you think I'm lowering the price for my services by half...lol...your nuts. I'm gonna outbid my competitors now by just enough to get the job and hire even more people for half the pay, bid on lots more work, pocket all that money and buy me a a new Harley, a new friggin Hellcat so I can go on Vacation every 3 months. thanks dude. Free Market (capitalism) is what MAKES MERICA GREAT

[Superfluous Man]

This:

sry, but the real crime is letting in 20 people who shouldn't even be here compete for one job that belongs to a citizen of THIS country.

Contradicts this:

Free Market (capitalism) is what MAKES MERICA GREAT

[showpan]

This:


Contradicts this:

It sure does...lmao...because I'm a sarcastic SOB

[Superfluous Man]

It sure does...lmao...because I'm a sarcastic SOB


So, just to be clear, you really are for the first part. And you really are against free market capitalism, and ridicule it.

[undergroundrr]

one job that belongs to a citizen of THIS country.

Nope. The money the employer will pay, the resources the employee will use to do the job are the property of the employer. The choice of who gets the job, citizen or not, belongs to him and him alone.


I'm gonna outbid my competitors now by just enough to get the job and hire even more people for half the pay, bid on lots more work, pocket all that money and buy me a a new Harley, a new friggin Hellcat so I can go on Vacation every 3 months.

Then your competitors will find other ways to cut costs or else a new player in the market will. Anyway, in a free labor market, you won't be able to monopolize the labor. And instead of being paranoid about getting caught and deported, the "illegals" will shop between employers for the best pay and conditions.

But if you're a good businessman, you'll still get the rewards of your work.

[showpan]

Your free market DOES NOT exist and NEVER WILL. What about that don't you understand. Some day if you can convince people like JP Morgan, Rothschild and the rest to stop doing what they are doing so you can live in your free market, open border utopia.....then I'm all in. Until then, I'm an American and live in THIS country NOW with mouths to feed.

please let us know if you manage to get a meeting with JP Morgan will ya, thanks

[Superfluous Man]

Your free market DOES NOT exist and NEVER WILL.

Doesn't matter.

A genuine tax rate of absolute zero won't ever exist either. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't always support lower taxes and oppose higher taxes.


I'm an American and live in THIS country NOW with mouths to feed.


But you support policies that are economically destructive and will make it harder for you to feed them.

[showpan]

Doesn't matter.

A genuine tax rate of absolute zero won't ever exist either. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't always support lower taxes and oppose higher taxes.



But you support policies that are economically destructive and will make it harder for you to feed them.

HAHA....I have been working for over 30 years and have endured what has happened by each and every president and congress since 1980....lmfao

let me ask you something, do you know what the deep state is?

[Superfluous Man]

let me ask you something, do you know what the deep state is?

Yes?

You mean like the kind of thing that Trump wants to put Snowden to death for warning us about. Right?

[CPUd]

sry, but the real crime is letting in 20 people who shouldn't even be here compete for one job that belongs to a citizen of THIS country. How is THAT fair!!! Of course it's artificial manipulation of wages because they only made 30 cents per hr where they came from and will work for half what an American worker will make. He won't complain about things like breaks, over time, insurance, retirement, asbestos this and silica that either unlike you lazy over payed snowflakes In the meantime, as a company owner, just because I only pay half the wages I had to pay, if you think I'm lowering the price for my services by half...lol...your nuts. I'm gonna outbid my competitors now by just enough to get the job and hire even more people for half the pay, bid on lots more work, pocket all that money and buy me a a new Harley, a new friggin Hellcat so I can go on Vacation every 3 months. thanks dude. Free Market (capitalism) is what MAKES MERICA GREAT

Do you believe "diversity" is a code word for "white genocide"?

[showpan]

Do you believe "diversity" is a code word for "white genocide"?

If you are suggesting I'm racist by sharing my experiences with illegal immigration, you are way off in your failed attempt to even intellectually debate such a monumental topic that has negatively effecting the lives of most people in this country. I have nothing against someone coming here to better themselves legally and willing to assimilate to this country. I do however have a problem with your globalistic neocon version of immigration, because that is all it is. Your theories do not apply.

[angelatc]

It's only illegal according to unjust laws. And unjust laws are no laws at all.

Again, that's clever and deep and thought-provoking and mind blown and all that, but it's also false.

[jmdrake]

Is he turning a profit?

His Base is his to sell,,

none of my business.

LOL. You win the web.

[Superfluous Man]

If you are suggesting I'm racist by sharing my experiences with illegal immigration, you are way off in your failed attempt to even intellectually debate such a monumental topic that has negatively effecting the lives of most people in this country. I have nothing against someone coming here to better themselves legally and willing to assimilate to this country. I do however have a problem with your globalistic neocon version of immigration, because that is all it is. Your theories do not apply.

Funny how you couldn't just answer yes or no.

Actually, what I've seen of your posts here haven't included anything about your experiences with illegal immigration, and have included plenty of clues about racism. I don't think you ever answered my question about that interesting website.

[Superfluous Man]

Again, that's clever and deep and thought-provoking and mind blown and all that, but it's also false.

No, it's true. And it's not a matter of opinion.

[Ender]

Again, that's clever and deep and thought-provoking and mind blown and all that, but it's also false.

Because something is "legal" does not make it "lawful." Two entirely different concepts.

[H. E. Panqui]

...i hate to be the constant $tick-in-the-mud around here ;) but, until you deal with the hideous REALITY this wag reveals, you are behaving as would a trifling republicrat monetary ignoramus:.

"Banking was conceived in iniquity and was born in sin. The Bankers own the earth. Take it away from them, but leave them the power to create deposits, and with the flick of the pen they will create enough deposits to buy it back again. However, take it away from them, and all the great fortunes like mine will disappear and they ought to disappear, for this would be a happier and better world to live in. But, if you wish to remain the slaves of Bankers and pay the cost of your own slavery, let them continue to create deposits."


[btw, madison 320, please...not with the 'fiat :rolleyes: money' thing again (hint for republicrats and ludwiggers: it's always 'fiat'...always...remember, history/reality not theory)..i ?remember you being pummeled?..and the hated zippy feasted on you!] ;) ...was i dreaming?..

[johnwk]

Maybe.....maybe not......


Would you expand upon that? I'm not sure what your thinking is regarding "capitalism" vs "Free Market", "Free Enterprise", etc. I know enemies of a free market system, etc., hate the phrase because of the word "free".


JWK




There was a time not too long ago in New York when able-bodied people were ashamed to accept home relief, a program created by Franklin D. Roosevelt in 1931 when he was Governor. Now these ticks and fleas not only demand welfare, but use it to buy beer, wine, drugs and Lotto tickets.

[johnwk]

Yep. I'm here to put in a good word for capitalism. Love it.

How do you feel about “Free enterprise,” “free-market” and "free" in general? Why do you embrace a word popularized by Karl Marks and used to attack “Free enterprise,” “free-market”, etc.?


JWK



They are not “liberals” or “progressives”. They are conniving Marxist parasites who use government force to steal and then enjoy the property which labor, business and investors have worked to create.

[Superfluous Man]

Because something is "legal" does not make it "lawful." Two entirely different concepts.

That is true as well.

But what I was saying was a larger claim than that. The only law that actually counts is the Creator's law. Make believe laws that politicians make up and call "laws" that violate the laws that actually exist, aren't laws at all.

This view may be out of favor today, especially with statists like I suppose Angelatc must be. But there's nothing novel or radical about it. Ron and Rand Paul have both affirmed it explicitly, as did Jefferson and others among the more libertarian leaning of the nation's founders, Augustine, Bastiat, Spooner, etc.

[Superfluous Man]

Why do you embrace a word popularized by Karl Marks and used to attack “Free enterprise,” “free-market”, etc.?


I can't speak for undergroundr, but capitalism is a fine word, and one we all should embrace. And Marx's opposition to it makes it all the more attractive to those of us here who aren't Marxists.

You, on the other hand, who favor a central government regulating immigration, as though it owns all of the property within its tax jurisdiction, fall squarely on the side of marxism.

[undergroundrr]

How do you feel about “Free enterprise,” “free-market” and "free" in general? Why do you embrace a word popularized by Karl Marks and used to attack “Free enterprise,” “free-market”, etc.?


JWK


I understand your concern. I don't have a problem with any of those terms. I'm just a little taken aback to be discouraged from using the un-PC word "capitalism." As noted elsewhere, if Marx attacked it, then that's even more reason. There are any number of movements in art, music, and politics whose names originate from a demeaning smear. Impressionist art, progressive rock, etc.

Don't get me wrong, if I'm discussing economics with a bunch of socialists, I would probably steer clear of any of these terms, avoid economics altogether and just start from a basis of individual rights. If things go in the right direction, I might even get a chance to point out to them that corporations aren't in any way capitalist, but government-created legal entities.

Regardless, I don't think there's any reason to avoid using the word capitalism here.

[H. E. Panqui]

"Don't get me wrong, if I'm discussing economics with a bunch of socialists, I would probably steer clear of any of these terms, avoid economics altogether and just start from a basis of individual rights."

...the fundamental unit of account in the 'economy' is fundamentally misunderstood by 99.44% of the 'capitalists,' 'socialists,' 'communists,' etc., who i meet...none of them have anything of honest value to add in a discussion about anything 'economic'...​

...you can't expect a knowledgeable person to take seriously anyone working their hole about some illion 'dollar' 'economy' if the hole-worker is clueless as to the HIDEOUS origin and nature of even one 'dollar'!...[ime, this leaves VERY VERY few hole-workers who can be taken seriously as to 'economic$,' 'free market$,' 'free enterpri$e,' 'capitali$m,' etc. ad gd nau$eam!..]...reality..

[johnwk]

I can't speak for undergroundr, but capitalism is a fine word, and one we all should embrace. And Marx's opposition to it makes it all the more attractive to those of us here who aren't Marxists.

You, on the other hand, who favor a central government regulating immigration, as though it owns all of the property within its tax jurisdiction, fall squarely on the side of marxism.



You say you cannot speak for “undergroundr”, so why speak for me and assert something false about what I favor?

The fact is, I am one of the few who has actually laid out the documentation to confirm our federal government has absolutely no authority to compel a State to accept unwanted immigrants.

Finally, why do you favor using the word “capitalism” to describe our system, a word unknown or used by our Founders, instead of using “free enterprise” and/or “free market”?

Additionally, the word capitalism implies a system governed by “capital”, which, as applied to us, implies a system governed by Federal Reserve Notes [capital], which were unconstitutionally declared to be a “legal tender” and are now used to plunder the real material wealth created by business, labor and investors.

Words do have meaning and the money changes have conned many into using their chosen word “capitalism” to describe our system which implies something far different than “free enterprise” and/or “free market”.


JWK

[johnwk]

I understand your concern. I don't have a problem with any of those terms. I'm just a little taken aback to be discouraged from using the un-PC word "capitalism." As noted elsewhere, if Marx attacked it, then that's even more reason.

Marx used the word "capitalism" to attack "free enterprise" and a "free market system". Socialists, Marxists and Progressives fear the word "free", which is self defining.

This may be a small point to ponder, but tell me, what is more descriptive, "capitalism" or "free enterprise" and "free market"?


JWK

[phill4paul]

millions of good paying jobs in the construction trades and other industries have been taken by illegal entrants who work off the books, below the going wage, and do not pay taxes on their eared wages.

That's what I do. Why shouldn't they?




American citizens are sick and tired of being made into tax slaves and forced to finance the personal economic needs of millions of foreigners who have invaded America’s borders.


That's your choice. I've chosen not to.

[phill4paul]

I'm not the one that wants more immigrants coming here who will work longer hours for considerably lesser pay and no benefits

I am. They are great workers. I actually pay more because I give no benefits. And since there are no "citizens" willing to do the construction job I task them with it works out great for me and them. No whining, no laying out of work, no feeling entitled to anything more than a good days pay for a good days work. Kinda what it used to be before "citizens" grew up to feel entitled. Want a job? I pay $15/hr. under the table.

[phill4paul]

My freaking husband looked for work for 4 years before he found a job. Fuck the Mexicans.

Should have just started his own gig. I did.

[phill4paul]

I'd like to know how many of you are in favor of punishing businesses for hiring illegals. That really pisses me off. I'm not against some control over immigration but that should be the government's job, not private companies. If you happen to catch an illegal speeding or committing a crime then deport them but don't force businesses to be agents of the government.

Your welcome to try. This is the exact reason why I have not formed a business. I hire and fire at will. And it's nobody's business but my own.

[phill4paul]

I see you are not one of the millions who can't find decent work.:mad:

Plenty of jobs out there. To those that can't find "decent work" I say get of your ass and create your own. Or perhaps adjust your attitude as to what "decent work" is.

[phill4paul]

sry, but the real crime is letting in 20 people who shouldn't even be here compete for one job that belongs to a citizen of THIS country. How is THAT fair!!! Of course it's artificial manipulation of wages because they only made 30 cents per hr where they came from and will work for half what an American worker will make. He won't complain about things like breaks, over time, insurance, retirement, asbestos this and silica that either unlike you lazy over payed snowflakes In the meantime, as a company owner, just because I only pay half the wages I had to pay, if you think I'm lowering the price for my services by half...lol...your nuts. I'm gonna outbid my competitors now by just enough to get the job and hire even more people for half the pay, bid on lots more work, pocket all that money and buy me a a new Harley, a new friggin Hellcat so I can go on Vacation every 3 months. thanks dude. Free Market (capitalism) is what MAKES MERICA GREAT

Your such a self entitled snowflake. Get off your ass and go make a living and quit expecting it to be handed to you because you were born here.

[phill4paul]

Listen up you wasted, blubbering, snowflakes, that feel that you are somehow entitled to "decent work" because you had the good fortune of being born an American citizen.
There is a reason that people hire illegals. It is because they are willing to...work.
Get up off your asses, quit your belly-aching and go make a living.

[Swordsmyth]

Listen up you wasted, blubbering, snowflakes, that feel that you are somehow entitled to "decent work" because you had the good fortune of being born an American citizen.
There is a reason that people hire illegals. It is because they are willing to...work.
Get up off your asses, quit your belly-aching and go make a living.

And you know all of us?
Just because you had different opportunities and have never experienced our lot in life does not mean you know everything.
If you want to hear someone defend a wrong with more arrogance and viciousness than is reasonable, find someone who makes money on that wrong.

Americans Own America, and have a perfect right to limit and control who comes here to our own benefit.

[phill4paul]

And you know all of us?
Just because you had different opportunities and have never experienced our lot in life does not mean you know everything.
If you want to hear someone defend a wrong with more arrogance and viciousness than is reasonable, find someone who makes money on that wrong.

Americans Own America, and have a perfect right to limit and control who comes here to our own benefit.

I made my opportunities. I remake them everyday. That's what the people that founded this country did. Being such a failure at life sounds like a personal problem to me.

[klamath]

Your such a self entitled snowflake. Get off your ass and go make a living and quit expecting it to be handed to you because you were born here.
Really makes you wonder if these are liberty forums or the united workers against free enterprise forums! I deserve it! It is MY right! Kill the scabs!
Start your own goddamned business and hire only certified citizens people! Labor and business are just different words for trade. Nobody forces you to by my product at a price I tell you to pay. Nobody should be required to buy your labor (AKA as your product) for a price you demand.

[H. E. Panqui]

"Listen up you wasted, blubbering, snowflakes, that feel that you are somehow entitled to "decent work" because you had the good fortune of being born an American citizen."

:confused:

...what do you to say about 'the banksters' who are apparently 'entitled' to illion$ in free money?...maybe save some of your scorn for the real $cumbags who prey upon/enslave/etc. humanity...and have for eon$...

[klamath]

"Listen up you wasted, blubbering, snowflakes, that feel that you are somehow entitled to "decent work" because you had the good fortune of being born an American citizen."

:confused:

...what do you to say about 'the banksters' who are apparently 'entitled' to illion$ in free money?...maybe save some of your scorn for the real $cumbags who prey upon/enslave/etc. humanity...and have for eon$... Ah maybe not bail them out with taxpayers money, like trump advocated....

[phill4paul]

"Listen up you wasted, blubbering, snowflakes, that feel that you are somehow entitled to "decent work" because you had the good fortune of being born an American citizen."

:confused:

...what do you to say about 'the banksters' who are apparently 'entitled' to illion$ in free money?...maybe save some of your scorn for the real $cumbags who prey upon/enslave/etc. humanity...and have for eon$...

I don't pay federal tax and I use a small local bank. I don't give a shit about them. You can keep on getting bent out of shape about them if you want or you can simplify your life. Instead of wasting time caring about the bankers I spend more time looking for the next job opportunity. Time is money. ;)

[Ender]

Listen up you wasted, blubbering, snowflakes, that feel that you are somehow entitled to "decent work" because you had the good fortune of being born an American citizen.
There is a reason that people hire illegals. It is because they are willing to...work.
Get up off your asses, quit your belly-aching and go make a living.

Never found harder workers than Mexicans.

And I have told the story several times on this forum about living in an entitled spoiled tourist city where no service jobs were filled by anyone but Hispanics. One woman looked for weeks trying to fill some well paying home care jobs and couldn't find a soul until she went to the local service org and got some Mexicans to take the jobs. AND these jobs started at $15-$20 an hour.

[Swordsmyth]

I made my opportunities. I remake them everyday. That's what the people that founded this country did. Being such a failure at life sounds like a personal problem to me.
Again with the self righteous arrogance, I am not a "failure at life" and I do everything I can to make opportunities but I am not omnipotent and state/local/fedgov do a pretty good job of limiting options/messing up the economy.

And I see you were incapable of responding to what I said, so you responded with ad-homenims.
And don't even start with the argument that groups don't exist or that group ownership doesn't exist at some level, you will make a fool of your self denying the obvious and I will not respond.

[phill4paul]

Again with the self righteous arrogance, I am not a "failure at life" and I do everything I can to make opportunities but I am not omnipotent and state/local/fedgov do a pretty good job of limiting options/messing up the economy.

And I see you were incapable of responding to what I said, so you responded with ad-homenims.
And don't even start with the argument that groups don't exist or that group ownership doesn't exist at some level, you will make a fool of your self denying the obvious and I will not respond.

I responded as I usually do to those that feel a need to whine about their state of affairs and want a government to make life better for them. So please, don't bother to respond if it is just going to be more whining.

[Superfluous Man]

You say you cannot speak for “undergroundr”, so why speak for me and assert something false about what I favor?


It's not false. Your main point in this thread has been to push immigration control.

[phill4paul]

Never found harder workers than Mexicans.

And I have told the story several times on this forum about living in an entitled spoiled tourist city where no service jobs were filled by anyone but Hispanics. One woman looked for weeks trying to fill some well paying home care jobs and couldn't find a soul until she went to the local service org and got some Mexicans to take the jobs. AND these jobs started at $15-$20 an hour.

Well, can't say I "never found." But the ones I've worked with do good by me. Honestly, it's tough finding good help. I've gone through the phase of friend, neighbors, acquaintances, recommending me their son, cousin, nephew for hire. I just nip that shit in the bud anymore. My ladies son works as a lineman. There is good pay, but hard work. He recently was pulled from the lines and put in charge of new hire training. He said on the day that the new hires had to show they could climb a pole 3/4 of the class was cut. Who the hell signs up for a lineman's job that can't even scale a pole?

[69360]

I've never believed Trump actually hated messicans and mooslims. It was all a show to get elected. He's a businessman and knows illegals are good cheap labor. The economy would utterly fall apart if you really rounded up all the illegals.

[johnwk]

That's what I do. Why shouldn't they?



That's your choice. I've chosen not to.


So, you are in disagreement with the rule of law and our Constitution. OK, that's your prerogative.


JWK




There was a time not too long ago in New York when able-bodied people were ashamed to accept home relief, a program created by Franklin D. Roosevelt in 1931 when he was Governor. Now these ticks and fleas not only demand welfare, but use it to buy beer, wine, drugs and Lotto tickets.

[H. E. Panqui]

I don't pay federal tax...Time is money. ;)

:rolleyes:

...this is asinine...even if you don't 'pay income tax' you pay all kinds of federal taxe$!...do you buy ammo?...firearms?...gasoline?...natural gas?...do you ever fly?...drink alcohol?...etc. ad goddamned nau$eam...GET REAL...

...your 'time is money' is just another stooooooooooopid, tired, bs cliche!...time is time...it is 'created' by 'god' if you will...money is money...it is created BY MAN! (some real scumbag men)...and anyone who truly understands our stinking rotten goddamned insane MAN-MADE monetary order is horrified..your lack of concern reveals a butt-ignorance typical of republicrats and other monetary ignoramuses...

[phill4paul]

:rolleyes:

...this is asinine...even if you don't 'pay income tax' you pay all kinds of federal taxe$!...do you buy ammo?...firearms?...gasoline?...natural gas?...do you ever fly?...drink alcohol?...etc. ad goddamned nau$eam...GET REAL...

...your 'time is money' is just another stooooooooooopid, tired, bs cliche!...time is time...it is 'created' by 'god' if you will...money is money...it is created BY MAN! (some real scumbag men)...and anyone who truly understands our stinking rotten goddamned insane MAN-MADE monetary order is horrified..your lack of concern reveals a butt-ignorance typical of republicrats and other monetary ignoramuses...

I do what I can. More importantly, less than most. I understand the stinking rotten goddamned insane MAN-MADE monetary order as much as you. I also learn to work within it. And outside it.

Call me ignorant but I'm not crying that Mexicans are stealing my jerbs.

[phill4paul]

So, you are in disagreement with the rule of law and our Constitution. OK, that's your prerogative.


JWK

I just happened to be born here. I didn't come out of the womb and sign a paper authorizing anyone's authority over me. I was indoctrinated to believe in it. And to feel I didn't have a choice. And then I decided that I did.

[nikcers]

This is the darkest timeline

[H. E. Panqui]

'I understand the stinking rotten goddamned insane MAN-MADE monetary order as much as you.'

:rolleyes:

...i really really really doubt that!!...really..

[phill4paul]

'I understand the stinking rotten goddamned insane MAN-MADE monetary order as much as you.'

:rolleyes:

...i really really really doubt that!!...really..

Yeah, do the teenager "rolleyes" one more time. That will convinced me that I know nothing and you know everything.

I have a good life. A happy life. As secure as one can be on any given day. Or into the given future.

I don't really care what you think you know. Or what you think you know about me.

I'm sure that will hurt you some. But, that's a personal problem.

[nikcers]

Never found harder workers than Mexicans.

And I have told the story several times on this forum about living in an entitled spoiled tourist city where no service jobs were filled by anyone but Hispanics. One woman looked for weeks trying to fill some well paying home care jobs and couldn't find a soul until she went to the local service org and got some Mexicans to take the jobs. AND these jobs started at $15-$20 an hour. There are lots of hard working Americans-just not ones that will work hard doing something they perceive to be beneath them. Service jobs used to be first jobs that taught you how to work hard, or jobs people picked up because they needed extra money. The destruction of low skill labor wage is what's caused a lot of people to never have to learn how to work hard. You could say that there are positives and negatives to letting a lot of cheap labor come in and take jobs for cheaper then the market would normally allow, but one could argue that in many ways it has hurt a lot more people then it helps. I don't think it helps enable the Mexican cartels and the Mexican government to rob their people and take advantage of them by letting their citizens come here to fix our problems (labor costs too much and we need to stay competitive).

[otherone]

So, you are in disagreement with the rule of law and our Constitution. OK, that's your prerogative.


"our"
It is to laugh.

[H. E. Panqui]

I have a good life. A happy life. As secure as one can be on any given day. Or into the given future.

:rolleyes:

[...said 'the house n!gger' to his not-so-lucky fellows...said the top of the pyramid dweller to the lower-level pyramid dweller$..ps..i bet i live 'higher on the hog' than you!...]

"The real menace of our Republic is the invisible government, which like a giant octopus sprawls its slimy legs over our cities, states and nation. To depart from mere generalizations, let me say that at the head of this octopus are the Rockefeller (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_D._Rockefeller)–Standard Oil (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Oil) interests and a small group of powerful banking houses generally referred to as the international bankers. The little coterie of powerful international bankers virtually run the United States government for their own selfish purposes.
They practically control both parties, write political platforms, make catspaws of party leaders, use the leading men of private organizations, and resort to every device to place in nomination for high public office only such candidates as will be amenable to the dictates of corrupt big business.
These international bankers and Rockefeller–Standard Oil interests control the majority of the newspapers and magazines in this country. They use the columns of these papers to club into submission or drive out of office public officials who refuse to do the bidding of the powerful corrupt cliques which compose the invisible government. It operates under cover of a self-created screen [and] seizes our executive officers, legislative bodies, schools, courts, newspapers and every agency created for the public protection."

[angelatc]

Really makes you wonder if these are liberty forums or the united workers against free enterprise forums! I deserve it! It is MY right! Kill the scabs!
Start your own goddamned business and hire only certified citizens people! Labor and business are just different words for trade. Nobody forces you to by my product at a price I tell you to pay. Nobody should be required to buy your labor (AKA as your product) for a price you demand.

And that's the disconnect. We cannot hire anybody we want at any wage we choose. We'd be for open borders if the market was free and the welfare state was abolished. Instead, the system now rewards cheats and liars. Philosophically, free trade is awesome. Practically speaking, it's a fairy tale.

[CaptUSA]

And that's the disconnect. We cannot hire anybody we want at any wage we choose. We'd be for open borders if the market was free and the welfare state was abolished. Instead, the system now rewards cheats and liars. Philosophically, free trade is awesome. Practically speaking, it's a fairy tale.

But you know this Angela. You cannot cure a government-created problem with MORE government. It will always exacerbate the problems > which in turn, you'll need MORE government to fix. It's the endless cycle. You can apply this to nearly EVERY problem where government gets involved.

[angelatc]

But you know this Angela. You cannot cure a government-created problem with MORE government. It will always exacerbate the problems > which in turn, you'll need MORE government to fix. It's the endless cycle. You can apply this to nearly EVERY problem where government gets involved.

There's no indication that the government is getting uninvolved.

[klamath]

There's no indication that the government is getting uninvolved. In other words you gave up and endorsed it. Sad. Heck I might just as well endorse full socialism. I can get all kinds of free stuff. The system isn't going to change. Trump didn't even win a popular majority.

[johnwk]

It's not false. Your main point in this thread has been to push immigration control.

You falsely asserted I am in "... favor a central government regulating immigration". What I am in favor of is abiding by our federal Constitution and the rule of law.

JWK

[angelatc]

In other words you gave up and endorsed it. Sad. Heck I might just as well endorse full socialism. I can get all kinds of free stuff. The system isn't going to change. Trump didn't even win a popular majority.

I am not endorsing anything, including open borders. But you're right, the system will never change. We're just screwed.

[phill4paul]

:rolleyes:
blargh, blargh, blargh.

There you go with the teenager hissyfit again. Go clean your room and develop a life skill.

[MallsRGood]

Also I think in the interim it is a good thing to focus on rebuilding industry in the country. Losing cheap labor does hurt profits and economy. However you can't ignore voters. As in people who vote just voted for economic protections for them selves. You might as well be upset that we vote. :)

Now that you mention it...

[charrob]

They are not eligible for federal government benefits if they are in the country illegally so your conditions are already met.


A 2011 report from the Treasury Inspector General for Tax Administration found that people who weren't authorized to work in the United States were paid $4.2 billion in refundable child tax credits during the 2010 tax-processing year.

http://thehill.com/policy/finance/319244-gop-rep-urges-trump-to-prevent-illegal-immigrants-from-claiming-tax-credits

The agency next to the building where i work used to have social services with free immunizations for kids, etc. When i walked across the street during my lunch break to buy a sandwich during the years they were there, the line for these free services came out the door of the office, down the outside stairs, and wound around the entire block. This went on for all the years they were there. The people in line did not speak English. And I made a point of counting the number of children with each woman every day. The least amount of children i counted was 4, but the vast majority had between 6 and 9 children with them. Were these illegal immigrants obtaining these free services everyday? I don't know. But i do know they did not speak English, not even broken English.

Hate me if you will but I see employers who currently employ illegal immigrants as parasites on the U.S. taxpayer that are being made to pay that employer's corporate welfare. Because that's what it is: corporate welfare. We, the taxpayers, are subsidizing that employer. The parasitic employer's profits are privatized and his costs are socialized. While the employer gets larger profits due to paying half the wages, the rest of us taxpayers are paying for the food stamps, schooling for umpteen kids, unearned tax credits, WIC, healthcare via emergency room visits, etc. that these people utilize. If the borders were sealed and the parasitic employer had to pay the going wages -- wages American workers would accept, the parasitic employer's profits would decrease but that employer's workers would make enough of a salary that they would not require food stamps, etc., to survive.

I despise globalization. And that's what this argument is about: globalization (open borders) versus nationalism.

[johnwk]

If they work or buy things or pay rent, they do pay taxes. They are not eligible for federal government benefits if they are in the country illegally so your conditions are already met.


You still posting fake news Zippy?

see REPEAL, BUT DON’T REPLACE OBAMACARE (http://www.newswithviews.com/Nelson/kelleigh382.htm)

By Kelleigh Nelson
January 9, 2017


Congress expanded Medicaid to include illegal immigrants, children (through CHIP (https://chipmedicaid.org/), Children’s Medicaid), and pregnant women. Because of the U.S. Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_Medical_Treatment_and_Active_Labor_Act) of 1986 (42 U.S.C. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_42_of_the_United_States_Code)), most hospitals may not refuse anyone treatment for an emergency medical condition because of citizenship (illegal aliens), legal status, or ability to pay. An example of the cost conflict between federal government, state and local government, and private institutions, is that the Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) brings injured and ill illegal aliens to hospital emergency rooms, but does not pay for their medical care. Almost $190 million, or about 25 percent, of the uncompensated costs Southwest border county hospitals incurred, resulted from emergency medical treatment provided to illegal immigrants. Emergency rooms on our southern borders have gone bankrupt and closed. Whether anyone wants to admit it or not, the cost to American taxpayers for medical treatment of illegals, and now the so-called Syrian refugees and Somalis, has exacerbated and exponentially increased our own healthcare costs. [Link (http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/immigration/item/2070-illegal-immigrants-overrun-arizonas-emergency-rooms)], [Link (http://www.wnd.com/2005/03/29329/)], [Link (http://www.foxnews.com/story/2005/03/18/la-emergency-rooms-full-illegal-immigrants.html)]

Anchor baby births alone have cost Americans billions of dollars each year. Breitbart documents (http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/08/25/census-anchor-baby-delivered-every-93-seconds/) that one is born every 93 seconds. Medicaid alone paid $2.2 billion last year (http://dailycaller.com/2013/02/15/report-2-billion-spent-annually-for-medicaid-emergencies-largely-for-illegal-immigrant-baby-delivery/) to partially reimburse hospitals for unpaid illegal alien delivery bills, double estimates from news reports.


JWK




American citizens are sick and tired of being made into tax slaves and forced to finance the personal economic needs of millions of foreigners who have invaded America’s borders.

[Zippyjuan]

You still posting fake news Zippy?

see REPEAL, BUT DON’T REPLACE OBAMACARE (http://www.newswithviews.com/Nelson/kelleigh382.htm)

By Kelleigh Nelson
January 9, 2017


Congress expanded Medicaid to include illegal immigrants, children (through CHIP (https://chipmedicaid.org/), Children’s Medicaid), and pregnant women. Because of the U.S. Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_Medical_Treatment_and_Active_Labor_Act) of 1986 (42 U.S.C. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Title_42_of_the_United_States_Code)), most hospitals may not refuse anyone treatment for an emergency medical condition because of citizenship (illegal aliens), legal status, or ability to pay. An example of the cost conflict between federal government, state and local government, and private institutions, is that the Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) brings injured and ill illegal aliens to hospital emergency rooms, but does not pay for their medical care. Almost $190 million, or about 25 percent, of the uncompensated costs Southwest border county hospitals incurred, resulted from emergency medical treatment provided to illegal immigrants. Emergency rooms on our southern borders have gone bankrupt and closed. Whether anyone wants to admit it or not, the cost to American taxpayers for medical treatment of illegals, and now the so-called Syrian refugees and Somalis, has exacerbated and exponentially increased our own healthcare costs. [Link (http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/immigration/item/2070-illegal-immigrants-overrun-arizonas-emergency-rooms)], [Link (http://www.wnd.com/2005/03/29329/)], [Link (http://www.foxnews.com/story/2005/03/18/la-emergency-rooms-full-illegal-immigrants.html)]

Anchor baby births alone have cost Americans billions of dollars each year. Breitbart documents (http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/08/25/census-anchor-baby-delivered-every-93-seconds/) that one is born every 93 seconds. Medicaid alone paid $2.2 billion last year (http://dailycaller.com/2013/02/15/report-2-billion-spent-annually-for-medicaid-emergencies-largely-for-illegal-immigrant-baby-delivery/) to partially reimburse hospitals for unpaid illegal alien delivery bills, double estimates from news reports.


JWK




American citizens are sick and tired of being made into tax slaves and forced to finance the personal economic needs of millions of foreigners who have invaded America’s borders.





Emergency rooms cannot refuse treatment based on immigration status, income, or insurance status. Mostly due to #3. Illegal immigrants are not eligible for Medicare or Medicaid. Legal immigrants only after five years in the country and if they meet certain conditions.

http://www.mymedicare.com/medicare-eligibility/


Certain groups of individuals born outside of the United States can be eligible for Medicare coverage. No illegal aliens are allowed to collect Medicare benefits. Those who are legal aliens in the United States and have lived in the country for at least five years continuously may be Medicare eligible but need to contact a local Medicare office for specific eligibility information as it can vary from person to person.

As for anchor babies, they are declining.

http://assets.pewresearch.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/12/2015/09/FT_15.09.10_BirthsToUnauthorizedImmigrants_LineCha rt310px.png

[CPUd]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_I9xtqceUhY

[johnwk]

Emergency rooms.....]




You alleged illegal entrants "... are not eligible for federal government benefits..." That was fake bull-crap-ski.


JWK

[afwjam]

Trump!