NAGR is the enemy of gun rights in North Carolina

[GunnyFreedom]

For 20 years we have had "Grassroots NC" known as GRNC (www.grnc.org (http://www.grnc.org)) operated by Paul Valone as the no-compromise 100% gun rights advocate in NC. So NAGR decided they are doing to operate in NC. First they create NC Gun Rights and are trying to divert donations away from NCGR by promoting themselves as NCGR instead. Now they are attacking pro-gun legislators and legislation in NC.

WTF are these assholes doing?

So far as I am concerned, the NAGR and their affiliate NC Gun Rights is now an enemy of gun rights in NC and across the US, and I consider them to be worse than the Brady people, because at least the Brady people are honest about being antigun instead of trying to steal that shyt in the middle of the night.

You may ask is it possible that NAGR has just made a mistake? no. It's obvious that everything was calculated from right up front. Whatever the fck is going on with NAGR, they are trying to take down pro-gun groups, pro-gun legislators, and pro-gun legisaltion in NC.

Grassroots NC has been around for over 20 years, and I trust them to defend my gun rights in NC more than anybody else in America. Gun Rights NC is a fake spoof organization created by NAGR to divert people away from a real gun rights org and into an org that will take your money while selling your gun rights (and your elected gun rights supporters) down the river.

Today they just sent a mass mailer opposing Constitutional Carry in NC and soliciting money.

These scumbags need outed and shut the fk down.

[GunnyFreedom]

Looks to me that NAGR and NC Gun Rights is simply an extension of the Sabre money-grubbing machine. They have never done ANYTHING in support of gun rights but yell "give us money give us money," all the while orgs like Grassroots NC who is ALWAYS at the legislature, holding meeting, hosting gun show booths, sponsoring events, have been working and making real progress here for decades.
Best I can tell, NAGR is just another arm of this Sabre scam that has glommed on to the Liberty Movement and tried to suck us dry of our funding.

[GunnyFreedom]

So once again we have Mike Rothfeld and Saber and their legion affiliated orgs attacking liberty and pro-liberty elected people in NC. Is it time yet to just write off Rothfeld, Saber, NAGR, and all such affiliated groups as scammers and thieves yet? Seems pretty clear to me they are just here to divert money and attention from any real groups who may actually be having some success at actually securing liberty, meanwhile all they ever really do is send out emails demanding money, and holding conferences for exorbitant fees where they don't actually teach you anything.

I'm so mad about this I could spit. Who TF are these people to come in here, spend all of 20 fkn DAYS in NC and suddenly start vomiting all over orgs who have been here working for 20 YEARS and trying to shut down the most pro-gun members of our legislature?

How much of this crap is it going to take before we accept the fact that this Rothfeld jerk is in fact an enemy of liberty who has just wormed his way into the Paul sphere in order to take us down from the inside?

[pcosmar]

True Pro 2nd Amendment folks are rare.

It is a handy issue for politicians,, and a good money draw.. regardless of their party.

[GunnyFreedom]

True Pro 2nd Amendment folks are rare.

It is a handy issue for politicians,, and a good money draw.. regardless of their party.

And it's pretty clear to me that anything touched by Rothfeld/Saber is just a scam designed to separate liberty people from any effective use of our hard earned dollars. This crap is the last straw. I used to consider them mere self-enrichment opportunists. Now I consider them more than that, actual enemies of philosophical liberty. Trying to scam money off of the liberty movement is one thing. Actively trying to subvert the expansion of liberty during the course of scamming that money is another matter entirely.

[GunnyFreedom]

Well I thought it was particularly appalling anyway.

[Keith and stuff]

Today they just sent a mass mailer opposing Constitutional Carry in NC and soliciting money.

Before I comment, can you please share some quotes from that where they say they oppose the NC Constitutional Carry bill? Thanks.

[Origanalist]

Before I comment, can you please share some quotes from that where they say they oppose the NC Constitutional Carry bill? Thanks.

Some more info would be nice, not that I don't trust Gunny.

[GunnyFreedom]

https://i.imgur.com/vi3CiVI.jpg

Utter unmitigated bullshit. Every single aspect of HB69 is a relaxation of gun regulations. EVERY PART.


http://www.ncleg.net/gascripts/BillLookUp/BillLookUp.pl?Session=2017&BillID=H69


But that's just the icing on the "trying to shut down NCGR and divert their donations to ourselves" cake.

[GunnyFreedom]

https://www.carolinafirearmsforum.com/forum/main-forum/news-and-views/2a-partners/grnc/83240-is-%E2%80%98nc-gun-rights%E2%80%99-a-fraud

Is ‘NC Gun Rights’ a fraud?02-05-2017, 06:34 PM




http://paracom.paramountcommunication.com/cimages/5bcf6b4cbc542c90ce112ef502d41dff/GRNCLogoLarge.jpg


Gun Rights Supporters:

For North Carolina Second Amendment supporters, there is a new game in town. Unfortunately, it seems to be a carnival game and, like most carnival games, is probably an illusion designed to empty your pockets.

Is ‘NC Gun Rights’ a fraud?

In recent weeks, North Carolinians have been receiving email solicitations from the “North Carolina Gun Rights PAC (http://paracom.paramountcommunication.com/ct/40314994:sOHrxIlNA:m:1:345464062:33C15487E8E58D1E7 15ABEEAC2C57F08:r),” which purports to be advocating for constitutional carry in our state.

But here is where things start to get dodgy: The Treasurer for the PAC is one “Melodie Johnson (http://paracom.paramountcommunication.com/ct/40314995:sOHrxIlNA:m:1:345464062:33C15487E8E58D1E7 15ABEEAC2C57F08:r)” who, to the best of our knowledge, has never shown her face to advocate gun rights at the NC General Assembly, and who does not respond to inquiries about her “organization.”

Indeed, although the PAC lists a Raleigh post office box, the email “Melodie” lists in PAC disclosure forms is at “rightsidecompliance.com”, an equally nebulous entity which does not list a phone number, but does claim addresses in McLean, VA and Austin, TX.

Who is behind the scheme?

And who is behind this supposed new gun rights advocacy group in North Carolina? Given the non-responsiveness of its representatives, we can only hypothesize, but given similarity of graphics and tactics, the likely culprits are some or all of same operators who created the “National Association for Gun Rights (http://paracom.paramountcommunication.com/ct/40314996:sOHrxIlNA:m:1:345464062:33C15487E8E58D1E7 15ABEEAC2C57F08:r)” – a group with a reputation for exaggerating threats to rake in money and, when it actually does do something, attacking pro-gun legislators.

Ironically, the guy who created NAGR and continues to consult for the organization is the same guy who originally trained GRNC in grassroots mobilization back in the 1990s, namelyMike Rothfeld (http://paracom.paramountcommunication.com/ct/40314997:sOHrxIlNA:m:1:345464062:33C15487E8E58D1E7 15ABEEAC2C57F08:r).

Unfortunately, Mr. Rothfeld and his firm,Saber Communications (http://paracom.paramountcommunication.com/ct/40314998:sOHrxIlNA:m:1:345464062:33C15487E8E58D1E7 15ABEEAC2C57F08:r), along with his hand-picked head of NAGR, Dudley Brown (http://paracom.paramountcommunication.com/ct/40314999:sOHrxIlNA:m:1:345464062:33C15487E8E58D1E7 15ABEEAC2C57F08:r), appear to have gone awry, and are now using predatory fundraising tactics to line their pockets. For a sample of Saber/NAGR’s various scandals, check Slate.com (http://paracom.paramountcommunication.com/ct/40315000:sOHrxIlNA:m:1:345464062:33C15487E8E58D1E7 15ABEEAC2C57F08:r)

http://paracom.paramountcommunication.com/cimages/5bcf6b4cbc542c90ce112ef502d41dff/NCGunRights.jpg Indeed, after NAGR sent a phony fundraiser about Senator R.C. Soles (http://paracom.paramountcommunication.com/ct/40315001:sOHrxIlNA:m:1:345464062:33C15487E8E58D1E7 15ABEEAC2C57F08:r), “the most vociferous anti-gun zealot in North Carolina” (he wasn’t, and had already quit), GRNC warned NAGR that if they persisted in predatory fundraising in NC, we would “out” them.

And so GRNC and NAGR remained in a standoff until December, when a new entity calling itself “NC Gun Rights” and using the address “gunrightsNC.com” (presumably designed to create confusion with GRNC.org) began screaming for money to passconstitutional carry in North Carolina.

But there is a tiny, little problem: By all accounts – including the legislators who actually run GRNC’s pro-gun legislation – they haven’t done anything for constitutional carry or, for that matter, anything else.

Do NOT sign a NAGR petition

Based on the relatively sophisticated graphics, AR-15 monthly giveaways, petitions, hysterical rhetoric, use of cut-outs for PAC treasurers, and expensive swag, the likely puppet master is NAGR.

GRNC recommends that you do not sign a NAGR petition or register for their “giveaways.” Their M.O. is to collect millions of gun-owner email addresses, which they aggressively dun for money. (By some accounts, NAGR might also sell your email address to other groups.)

As we head into the legislative season, GRNC also strongly suggests you regard with extreme skepticism any legislative alert coming from this or similar groups which unfairly maligns pro-gun legislators who are fighting for your rights.

Do not confuse these charlatans with
Grass Roots North Carolina

In summary, please understand that Grass Roots North Carolina (GRNC, not “NCGR”) is not behind this money-grubbing and that although this charade (and others) might claim to be “North Carolina’s only no-compromise gun rights organization,” in truth that name applies only to GRNC which, since 1994, has brought you:

Concealed carry;
Concealed handgun reciprocity;
Purchase permit bypass;
Castle Doctrine/Stand Your Ground;
Expansion of concealed carry into restaurants, education properties and many other places;
The death of countless gun control proposals and, coming soon ...



Constitutional carry!
Armatissimi e liberissimi,
http://paracom.paramountcommunication.com/cimages/5bcf6b4cbc542c90ce112ef502d41dff/PaulV_Signature.jpg

F. Paul Valone
President, Grass Roots North Carolina
Executive Director, Rights Watch International

[GunnyFreedom]

https://www.grnc.org/defend-your-rights/press-releases/892-support-hb-69-for-nc-constitutional-carry

Support HB 69 FOR NC CONSTITUTIONAL CARRY!
With GRNC feedback and support, Representative LARRY PITTMAN (http://www.ncleg.net/gascripts/members/viewMember.pl?sChamber=H&nUserID=633) (R-Cabarrus) today introduced House Bill 69 for what will be GRNC’s main legislative thrust for 2017: constitutional (permitless) carry. In addition to Rep. Pittman, primary sponsors for the bill include Reps. MICHAEL SPECIALE (http://www.ncleg.net/gascripts/members/viewMember.pl?sChamber=H&nUserID=671) (R-Beaufort, Craven, Pamlico), BEVERLY BOSWELL (http://www.ncleg.net/gascripts/members/viewMember.pl?sChamber=H&nUserID=714) (R-Beaufort, Dare, Hyde, Washington), and JAY ADAMS (http://www.ncleg.net/gascripts/members/viewMember.pl?sChamber=H&nUserID=697) (R-Catawba).


HB 69 (“Constitutional Carry Act”): (http://www.ncleg.net/Sessions/2017/Bills/House/PDF/H69v0.pdf)



Establishes a new Article 54C, under which handguns may be carried concealed without permits;






Removes the need to have a concealed handgun permit to carry a concealed handgun in restaurants, public assemblies, parades and funerals, and (with the same limitations as currently in law) onto educational properties; and






Retains the current CHP system for purposes of reciprocity with other states.



HB 69 is designed to be a “clean” reciprocity bill (i.e. without other measures) in order to draw fewer objections from potential supporters. GRNC will shepherd the introduction of additional legislative initiatives in other bills.
IMMEDIATE ACTION REQUIRED!


CONTACT SPEAKER TIM MOORE at:
919-733-3451 (tel:(919)%20733-3451), Tim.Moore@ncleg.net
Tell him to move HB 69 forward. You can use the copy/paste text below, under 'Deliver This Message,' to send an email message to Speaker Moore.
CONTACT RULES CHAIRMAN DAVID LEWIS at: 919-715-3015 (tel:(919)%20715-3015),David.Lewis@ncleg.net
Tell him to move HB 69 forward. You can use the copy/paste text below, under 'Deliver This Message,' to send an email message to Rep. Lewis.
CONTACT YOUR NC HOUSE REP: Tell them to sign onto HB 69 as a co-sponsor ASAP. Click here (http://www.ncleg.net/representation/WhoRepresentsMe.aspx) to find your NC House representative, or go to: http://www.ncleg.net/representation/WhoRepresentsMe.aspx
THANK THE BILL SPONSORS; Use these copy/paste email addresses:
Larry.Pittman@ncleg.net;Michael.Speciale@ncleg.net ;Beverly.Boswell@ncleg.net; Jay.Adams@ncleg.net



Email a copy of the following text to: Tim.Moore@ncleg.net


and also to David.Lewis@ncleg.net


Suggested Subject: "Support HB 69 - Constitutional Carry"






Dear [Speaker Moore or Representative Lewis]:
A powerful trend is sweeping across the United States in which eleven states have now adopted (or previously had) statutes under which lawful citizens could carry firearms for self-protection without obtaining burdensome permits.

The states with permitless concealed carry now include Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Idaho, Kansas, Maine, Mississippi, Missouri, Vermont, West Virginia, and Wyoming. Indeed, Missouri’s law went into effect on January 1, and West Virginia’s went into effect in May. Additionally, more limited versions of permitless carry exist in Montana, New Hampshire, New Mexico, and Oklahoma.

It is high time North Carolina joined those enlightened states by relieving lawful North Carolinians from expensive and burdensome permit requirements which discriminate against people with lesser means. Accordingly, I ask you to give a prompt hearing to House Bill 69 (“Constitutional Carry Act”), sponsored by Reps. Larry Pittman, Michael Speciale, Beverly Boswell, and Jay Adams.

Each time we have expanded concealed carry – whether into parks, restaurants, educational property or elsewhere – naysayers have predicted gloom and doom. Each time, they have been wrong. In fact, I am aware of no instance in any of the states which have adopted constitutional carry in which it has caused problems.

Again, I urge you to give HB 69 a prompt hearing. I will be monitoring this issue through Grass Roots North Carolina legislative alerts.

Respectfully,

[GunnyFreedom]

https://www.carolinafirearmsforum.com/forum/main-forum/news-and-views/2a-partners/grnc/94432-grnc-alert-2-19-17-give-hb-69-a-fair-hearing

GRNC Alert 2-19-17 GIVE HB 69 A FAIR HEARING!02-19-2017, 08:55 PM





GIVE HB 69 A FAIR HEARING!


As you know, Representative LARRY PITTMAN (http://paracom.paramountcommunication.com/ct/40632028:sRwnkclNM:m:N:345464062:E47CC4B27C597BD29 B2DADC0DA97C168) (R-Cabarrus) introduced House Bill 69 (with GRNC's feedback and support) to restore our rights to constitutional (permitless) carry. The primary sponsors of the bill include Reps. MICHAEL SPECIALE (http://paracom.paramountcommunication.com/ct/40632029:sRwnkclNM:m:N:345464062:E47CC4B27C597BD29 B2DADC0DA97C168) (R-Beaufort, Craven, Pamlico), BEVERLY BOSWELL (http://paracom.paramountcommunication.com/ct/40632030:sRwnkclNM:m:N:345464062:E47CC4B27C597BD29 B2DADC0DA97C168) (R-Beaufort, Dare, Hyde, Washington), and JAY ADAMS (http://paracom.paramountcommunication.com/ct/40632031:sRwnkclNM:m:N:345464062:E47CC4B27C597BD29 B2DADC0DA97C168) (R-Catawba).


Since its introduction, HP 69 currently resides in House Judiciary I (http://paracom.paramountcommunication.com/ct/40632032:sRwnkclNM:m:N:345464062:E47CC4B27C597BD29 B2DADC0DA97C168) which is chaired by Representative TED DAVIS, JR (http://paracom.paramountcommunication.com/ct/40632033:sRwnkclNM:m:N:345464062:E47CC4B27C597BD29 B2DADC0DA97C168). We have reported his actions in previous GRNC Alerts (http://paracom.paramountcommunication.com/ct/40632034:sRwnkclNM:m:N:345464062:E47CC4B27C597BD29 B2DADC0DA97C168) and feel strongly that HB 69, if it stays in House Judiciary I under Rep. Davis, will be in danger of being stopped.

GRNC feels strongly that the seriousness of this bill deserves a fair hearing and is asking everyone to contact your representatives to urge them to move HB 69 to House Judiciary II (http://paracom.paramountcommunication.com/ct/40632035:sRwnkclNM:m:N:345464062:E47CC4B27C597BD29 B2DADC0DA97C168), chaired by Representative JOHN M. BLUST (http://paracom.paramountcommunication.com/ct/40632036:sRwnkclNM:m:N:345464062:E47CC4B27C597BD29 B2DADC0DA97C168).


To recap the details of HB 69 (http://paracom.paramountcommunication.com/ct/40632037:sRwnkclNM:m:N:345464062:E47CC4B27C597BD29 B2DADC0DA97C168)(“Constitutional Carry Act”) (http://paracom.paramountcommunication.com/ct/40632037:sRwnkclNM:m:N:345464062:E47CC4B27C597BD29 B2DADC0DA97C168) and the reasons for GRNC's support:

Establishes a new Article 54C, under which handguns may be carried concealed without permits;
Removes the need to have a concealed handgun permit to carry a concealed handgun in restaurants, public assemblies, parades and funerals, and (with the same limitations as currently in law) onto educational properties;
and Retains the current CHP system for purposes of reciprocity with other states.



HB 69 is designed to be a “clean” reciprocity bill (i.e. without other measures) in order to draw fewer objections from potential supporters. GRNC will shepherd the introduction of additional legislative initiatives in other bills.











IMMEDIATE ACTION REQUIRED!



CONTACT SPEAKER TIM MOORE and CHAIRMAN DAVID LEWIS
at:

919-733-3451, Tim.Moore@ncleg.net
919-715-3015, David.Lewis@ncleg.net
Tell them to move HB 69 from House Judiciary I to House Judiciary II in order for it to receive the fair hearing it deserves. You can use the copy/paste text below, under 'Deliver This Message,' to send an email message to Speaker Moore and Chairman Lewis.
CONTACT CHAIRMAN JOHN M. BLUST at:
919-733-5781, John.Blust@ncleg.net
Urge him to work with Speaker Moore to take the HB 69 into his committee and give it the fair hearing it deserves. You can use the copy/paste text below, under 'Deliver This Message,' to send an email message to Representative Blust.




DELIVER THIS MESSAGE



Here are two suggested messages to deliver:

Suggested Subject: "Give HB 69 a fair hearing and move to House Judiciary II"


Dear [Speaker Moore or Chairman Lewis]:



House Bill 69, sponsored by Reps. Larry Pittman, Michael Speciale, Beverly Boswell, and Jay Adams, has been introduced and currently resides in House Judiciary I, chaired by Rep. Ted David, Jr. I feel that Rep. Davis will not give the bill the fair hearing it deserves and urge you to please move it to House Judiciary II chaired by Rep. John M. Blust.

A powerful trend is sweeping across the United States in which eleven states have now adopted (or previously had) statutes under which lawful citizens could carry firearms for self-protection without obtaining burdensome permits.

The states with permitless concealed carry now include Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Idaho, Kansas, Maine, Mississippi, Missouri, Vermont, West Virginia, and Wyoming. Indeed, Missouri’s law went into effect on January 1, and West Virginia’s went into effect in May. Additionally, more limited versions of permitless carry exist in Montana, New Hampshire, New Mexico, and Oklahoma.

It is high time North Carolina joined those enlightened states by relieving lawful North Carolinians from expensive and burdensome permit requirements which discriminate against people with lesser means. Accordingly, I ask you to give a prompt hearing to HB 69 (“Constitutional Carry Act”).

Each time we have expanded concealed carry – whether into parks, restaurants, educational property or elsewhere – naysayers have predicted gloom and doom. Each time, they have been wrong. In fact, I am aware of no instance in any of the states which have adopted constitutional carry in which it has caused problems.

Again, I urge you to give HB 69 a fair hearing and move it from Rep. Davis and House Judiciary I to House Judiciary II and Rep. Blust. I will be monitoring this issue through Grass Roots North Carolina legislative alerts.

Respectfully,

Suggested Subject: "Please work with Speaker Moore and give HB 69 a fair hearing in House House Judiciary II"

Dear House Chairman Blust:

House Bill 69, sponsored by Reps. Larry Pittman, Michael Speciale, Beverly Boswell, and Jay Adams, has been introduced and currently resides in House Judiciary I, chaired by Rep. Ted David, Jr. I feel that Rep. Davis will not give the bill the fair hearing it deserves and urge you to please work with Speaker Moore to move it to House Judiciary II under your leadership.

As you know, Rep. Blust, a powerful trend is sweeping across the United States in which eleven states have now adopted (or previously had) statutes under which lawful citizens could carry firearms for self-protection without obtaining burdensome permits.

The states with permitless concealed carry now include Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, Idaho, Kansas, Maine, Mississippi, Missouri, Vermont, West Virginia, and Wyoming. Indeed, Missouri’s law went into effect on January 1, and West Virginia’s went into effect in May. Additionally, more limited versions of permitless carry exist in Montana, New Hampshire, New Mexico, and Oklahoma.

It is high time North Carolina joined those enlightened states by relieving lawful North Carolinians from expensive and burdensome permit requirements which discriminate against people with lesser means.

Each time we have expanded concealed carry – whether into parks, restaurants, educational property or elsewhere – naysayers have predicted gloom and doom. Each time, they have been wrong. In fact, I am aware of no instance in any of the states which have adopted constitutional carry in which it has caused problems.

Again, I urge you to work with Speaker Moore to move HB 69 to your House Judiciary Committee, House Judiciary II, to give it the fair hearing it deserves. I will be monitoring this issue through Grass Roots North Carolina legislative alerts.

Respectfully,


Sincerely,

© 2017 Grass Roots North Carolina. All rights reserved. Reproduction and distribution is permitted provided full attribution is given and the item is reprinted in its entirety. Address questions to: President@GRNC.org

[GunnyFreedom]

Grassroots NC has been in the trenches and making REAL GAINS for 20 fkn years, and these pieces of unmitigated Rothfeld/Saber filth calling themselves "Gun Rights NC" are here for 20 fkn DAYS trying to undo all of our work, and discredit the people we have fighting for gun rights in the General Assembly.

Where the fuck was Rothfeld/NAGR when we passed Castle Doctrine eh? Where the fuck was Rothfeld/NAGR when we passed "must-issue" Concealed Carry, huh? Where the fuck was Rothfeld/NAGR when we passed Restaurant Parks and school carry huh? Where the fuck was Rothfeld/NAGR when Speciale and Pittman were getting attacked by the left and the right alike for being "too extreme on gun rights advocacy" Huh?

These motherfuckers clearly do not give a flying fuck about gun rights, all they are here to do is take advantage of well meaning gun rights activists to strip us of our hard earned money that should go to Grassroots NC.

[Origanalist]

833945587141611521

[Keith and stuff]

Thanks. Reading the bill, it appears to be far less clean than any Constitutional Carry law. It isn't close to a clean bill IMO because the new section Article 54C. Letters (a), (b), (c), (d), (e), and (f) alone make it not a clean bill. When taken together, they make the bill questionable. Honestly, when the NRA screwed up the NH Constitutional Carry bill in the 2011/2012 session in NH, that version was about what the average state CC law is. We still stopped it because we thought no CC was better for NH than the standard other states pass, only with 2 bad additions. This NC bill is very concerning. This bill could set a dangerous precedent. In fact, I could see something like this passing in TX if it passed in NC. That wouldn't be a good trend, IMO :( Are you sure you really support it?

Sorry, I could be totally wrong. I'm not trying to undermine you. This is just my take based on my reading of the bill compared to my reading of the CC laws in other states.



(b)
Carrying Concealed
Handgun
.
–
A
ny person
who is
a citizen of the United States and
22
is
at least
18
years old
may carry a concealed
handgun
in this State
unless
provided otherwise by
23
State
law
or
by
18 U
.
S
.
C
.
§
922 or any other
federal
law.
24
(c)
Prohibition on
C
arrying
C
oncealed on
P
osted
P
rivate
P
roperty.
–
A person
shall
not
25
carry a concealed handgun on another person
'
s private property
if notice is given that carrying a
26
concealed handgun on the premises is prohibited by either
the
posting
of
a
conspicuous notice or
27
statement by the person in legal possession or control of the premises.
This subsection does not
28
apply to a law enforcement officer who is discharging the officer
'
s official duties.
29
(d)
Prohibition on
C
onsuming
A
lcohol
W
hen
C
arrying
C
oncealed.
–
It is unlawful for a
30
person to carry a concealed handgun while consuming alcohol or at any time while the person has
31
remaining in the person
'
s body any alcohol or in the person
'
s blood a controlled substance
32
previously consumed, but a person do
es not violate this condition if a controlled substance in the
33
person
'
s blood was lawfully obtained and taken in therapeutically appropriate amounts or if the
34
person is on the person
'
s own property.





(f)
Valid Identification Required;
Disclosure
to Law Enforcement Officer When Carrying
38
Concealed.
–
When carrying a concealed
h
andgun
, a person shall also carry valid identification
39
and
shall disclose to any law enforcement officer that the person is carrying a concealed
handgun
40
when approached or addressed by the officer and shall display the proper identification upon the
41
request of a law enforcement officer.

[GunnyFreedom]

Thanks. Reading the bill, it appears to be far less clean than any Constitutional Carry law. It isn't close to a clean bill IMO because the new section Article 54C. Letters (a), (b), (c), (d), (e), and (f) alone make it not a clean bill. When taken together, they make the bill questionable. Honestly, when the NRA screwed up the NH Constitutional Carry bill in the 2011/2012 session in NH, that version was about what the average state CC law is. We still stopped it because we thought no CC was better for NH than the standard other states pass, only with 2 bad additions. This NC bill is very concerning. This bill could set a dangerous precedent. In fact, I could see something like this passing in TX if it passed in NC. That wouldn't be a good trend, IMO :( Are you sure you really support it?

Sorry, I could be totally wrong. I'm not trying to undermine you. This is just my take based on my reading of the bill compared to my reading of the CC laws in other states.

You are totally wrong. The part you are looking at is a VOLUNTARY piece which allows interstate reciprocation. You may note that Constitutional Carry States without such a voluntary registry have zero interstate carry reciprocation. Without this voluntary piece I would not be able to CC in Virginia or Tennessee or SC, or anywhere else where we currently have reciprocal carry. You would only need to seek the license if you were carrying concealed into other States for the purposes of reciprocity. You did note the 100% voluntary bit yes?

[Matt Collins]

Looks to me that NAGR and NC Gun Rights is simply an extension of the Sabre money-grubbing machine.You have to be able to raise money in order to be consistently effective.


They have never done ANYTHING in support of gun rights but yell "give us money give us money," all the while orgs like Grassroots NC who is ALWAYS at the legislature, holding meeting, hosting gun show booths, sponsoring events, have been working and making real progress here for decades.
Best I can tell, NAGR is just another arm of this Sabre scam that has glommed on to the Liberty Movement and tried to suck us dry of our funding.Uh no. They pick very specific targets where they think they have a chance to achieve victory. They are also responsible for stopping the Toomey-Manchin gun control bill (which the NRA supported).

If they are setting up shop in NC it is because they think they have a chance to accomplish something.



It seems to me that you are just jealous someone who is professional is infringing in your fiefdom. You really should be welcoming the help.




Seems pretty clear to me they are just here to divert moneyThere is no way for them to "divert" money from other groups... Seems like you somehow think some groups are entitled to money :rolleyes:


Who TF are these people to come in here, spend all of 20 fkn DAYS in NC and suddenly start vomiting all over orgs who have been here working for 20 YEARS and trying to shut down the most pro-gun members of our legislature? A few points...

- you should be glad you have help if you really care about the issues, but it sounds like you are jealous. Of course I know the real reason, you are still butthurt that Brannon's campaign didn't hire you.

- if a local group has been operating for 20 years and hasn't already passed Constitutional Carry, especially in a state like NC where it is achievable, then that group is obviously ineffective. This is how it normally is across the country, lots of the state level pro-gun groups are not run by full time professionals and dont know how to raise money or cause political pain, gotv, etc.

- just because a legislator is pro-gun doesn't mean that they are a good legislator. If they aren't willing to vote on pro-gun measures then they are not helping the cause. Only leaders are willing to introduce bills AND force recorded floor votes on these bills.





How much of this crap is it going to take before we accept the fact that this RothfeldI do agree that his personality lends himself to earning that label sometimes.



And it's pretty clear to me that anything touched by Rothfeld/Saber is just a scam designed to separate liberty people from any effective use of our hard earned dollars. This crap is the last straw. I used to consider them mere self-enrichment opportunists. Now I consider them more than that, actual enemies of philosophical liberty. Trying to scam money off of the liberty movement is one thing. Actively trying to subvert the expansion of liberty during the course of scamming that money is another matter entirely.LOL, no one is scamming anything from anyone. As someone who has raised money for them and worked for them, I can assure you that they are very frugal and use their money to achieve victories... places like Missouri, Mississippi, West Virginia, and others just to name a few. They are working on getting it passed in SD this year too.



Grassroots NC has been in the trenches and making REAL GAINS for 20 fkn years, If that is the case, then why haven't they passed Constitutional Carry? :rolleyes:

NAGR can pass it anywhere in less than 10 years (CA, NY, IL, MA, CT, RI excluded) and in most cases they can pass it in 4-6 years.



and these pieces of unmitigated Rothfeld/Saber filth calling themselves "Gun Rights NC" are here for 20 fkn DAYS trying to undo all of our work, and discredit the people we have fighting for gun rights in the General Assembly. They are not trying to undo anyone's work. But if a legislator doesn't meet their exceptionally high standards, then yeah, they are going to give them some grief.


Where the fuck was Rothfeld/NAGR when we passed Castle Doctrine eh? Where the fuck was Rothfeld/NAGR when we passed "must-issue" Concealed Carry, huh? Where the fuck was Rothfeld/NAGR when we passed Restaurant Parks and school carry huh? Where the fuck was Rothfeld/NAGR when Speciale and Pittman were getting attacked by the left and the right alike for being "too extreme on gun rights advocacy" Huh?Off passing Constitutional Carry in other states. Congrats on your victories though, but you should be excited to have help. Again you are coming off as a whining kid here who doesn't want anyone else playing with his toys. Not to mention that your cussing is exceptionally immature and unprofessional.


These motherfuckers clearly do not give a flying fuck about gun rights, all they are here to do is take advantage of well meaning gun rights activists to strip us of our hard earned money that should go to Grassroots NC.As previously mentioned, you really shouldn't drink and post.

[Keith and stuff]

You are totally wrong. The part you are looking at is a VOLUNTARY piece which allows interstate reciprocation. You may note that Constitutional Carry States without such a voluntary registry have zero interstate carry reciprocation. Without this voluntary piece I would not be able to CC in Virginia or Tennessee or SC, or anywhere else where we currently have reciprocal carry. You would only need to seek the license if you were carrying concealed into other States for the purposes of reciprocity.
We don't have any of those restricts in New Hampshire. They aren't required. Most states with CC only have 1, 2 or 3 of them.


You did note the 100% voluntary bit yes?
Thank you. Yes I missed it. Where in the bill does it mention that?

[GunnyFreedom]

You have to be able to raise money in order to be consistently effective.

If naming yourself by the acronym of an actually legitimate Gun Rights org who has been operating here for 20 years is how you are raising money, then you are crooked as hell. If you are trying to take away from a group who is in the General Assembly 3 days a week, every week, for the last 20 years when all your org does is send emails soliciting donations, you are not being effective. Unless your intend is to destroy gin rights organizations.


Uh no. They pick very specific targets where they think they have a chance to achieve victory. They are also responsible for stopping the Toomey-Manchin gun control bill (which the NRA supported).

If they are setting up shop in NC it is because they think they have a chance to accomplish something.

Shutting down and discrediting NC's only pro-gun legislators? This is what they think they can accomplish?


It seems to me that you are just jealous someone who is professional is infringing in your fiefdom. You really should be welcoming the help.

Again, your speculation easts you into pure fantasy. I am pro-gun. I myself have not been back to the NCGA in 3 years. These idiot's version of "help" is to destroy the work of gun rights activists. Why would I welcome that?


There is no way for them to "divert" money from other groups... Seems like you somehow think some groups are entitled to money :rolleyes:

Riiight. We've only been here 20 days, but we're just going to pretend to be affiliated with the group that has been here for 20 years when demanding money.


A few points...

- you should be glad you have help if you really care about the issues, but it sounds like you are jealous. Of course I know the real reason, you are still butthurt that Brannon's campaign didn't hire you.

Once again you are lying and deflecting, which is what you do, therefore I am not surprised. The reason I oppose "Gun Rights NC" is because I am pro gun and Gun Rights NC is actively trying to stop us.


- if a local group has been operating for 20 years and hasn't already passed Constitutional Carry, especially in a state like NC where it is achievable, then that group is obviously ineffective. This is how it normally is across the country, lots of the state level pro-gun groups are not run by full time professionals and dont know how to raise money or cause political pain, gotv, etc.

Bullshit. You don't have the first clue what you are talking about. NC had been under liberal domination since the 1870's. In the five years since Republicans have taken back NC's government, we have made more gun right gains than any other State in the union.


- just because a legislator is pro-gun doesn't mean that they are a good legislator. If they aren't willing to vote on pro-gun measures then they are not helping the cause. Only leaders are willing to introduce bills AND force recorded floor votes on these bills.

Do you even know who Larry Pittman and Michael Speciale are whom you are accusing of being "Bad Legislators?" Because I know them personally, and I have for over a decade, and you are full of shit.


I do agree that his personality lends himself to earning that label sometimes.


LOL, no one is scamming anything from anyone. As someone who has raised money for them and worked for them,

Well that explains a lot.


I can assure you that they are very frugal and use their money to achieve victories... places like Missouri, Mississippi, West Virginia, and others just to name a few. They are working on getting it passed in SD this year too.


If that is the case, then why haven't they passed Constitutional Carry? :rolleyes:

NAGR can pass it anywhere in less than 10 years (CA, NY, IL, MA, CT, RI excluded) and in most cases they can pass it in 4-6 years.


They are not trying to undo anyone's work. But if a legislator doesn't meet their exceptionally high standards, then yeah, they are going to give them some grief.

Off passing Constitutional Carry in other states. Congrats on your victories though, but you should be excited to have help.

Help destroying gun rights and gin rights activists and gun rights legislators? Thanks but no thanks.


Again you are coming off as a whining kid here who doesn't want anyone else playing with his toys. Not to mention that your cussing is exceptionally immature and unprofessional.

I don't rightly give a fuck what personal fantasies you paint me with. I will stand and defend the right to bear arms no matter how mich you wish I would sit down and shut up.


As previously mentioned, you really shouldn't drink and post.

You do understand that constantly accusing someone of drunkenness whenever you disagree with them is called "Libel" right? If we needed any evidence of your crooked and unprincipled nature, there it is.

[GunnyFreedom]

We don't have any of those restricts in New Hampshire. They aren't required. Most states with CC only have 1, 2 or 3 of them.

What restrics? This bill makes no requirements for Concealed Carry except that you can legally possess a gun.


Thank you. Yes I missed it. Where in the bill does it mention that?

That's the entire point of this bill. If you read it, it says clearly that there is no permit needed to carry concealed. The only reason the permitting process is being retained is for out of state reciprocity.

If Gun Rights NC had spent more than the last 20 days in NC they would have known that we tried this 2 years ago and gun owners freaked out because they were going to lose reciprocity.

[phill4paul]

A connection to Mike Rothfield/Saber is about all I need to know about this organization. To simply shuffle the acronym for an existing gun rights lobby is about what I'd expect out of them. Thanks for the heads up Gunny. I'll pass the word around and double check who it is soliciting funds.

[phill4paul]

From an old thread...


I see Mike Rothfield consults with Gun Owners of America. What is our position on Gun Owners of America?

Well, that makes sense. I'm sure he acquired a rather nice mailing list and decided to cash in on the liberty movement. Again.

[pcosmar]

You have to be able to raise money in order to be consistently effective.



You mean like the NRA?

They have been fleecing and screwing gun owners for years. and I expect the same thing here.

and they all support a police state..
and that is the bottom line.

[pcosmar]

What restrics? This bill makes no requirements for Concealed Carry except that you can legally possess a gun.
.

And that is an issue that no one will touch.

and it is key.

Possession of any tool of self defense should not be prohibited.. or even questioned.

There should never be any question of legal possession,, unless it is clearly a stolen weapon..(witnessed observation)

[William Tell]

OK, I realize this thread is about NC. I don't know much about NC so I don't have anything to add on NC I'll defer to members from there like Gunny. I don't have anything to counter his claims about NCGR, sounds like they have screwed up.


That said, as far as NAGR in Texas goes I do have something to add. NAGR and their state affiliate here TXGR are the good guys. the leaders here are respectable grassroots liberty advocates. They are one of the few groups supporting our CC bill here. Their political PAC gets involved in primaries and contributes directly to candidates and sends out direct mail supporting a good candidate or attacking a bad one, and in every case I have seen they are contributing to the right side. Yes, their fundraising can be annoying, but I don't mind a few hundred emails in my spam box when good campaigns are getting $1,000 checks. I only wish they were writing even bigger checks, but hey its better than what most of us can do.

Now, they may be inefficient, I have no doubt there is some waste. And their claim to be the only no compromise group is suspect, bu to be fair there were few if any other active no compromise groups here before they came on the scene. And so far I have never seen them compromise.

They do lobby for good legislation like our Constitutional Carry bill at the capitol and call BS on the leadership when the legislature tries to give us watered down substitute bills instead.

There are few groups around here that have proven trustworthy in this state and so far they haven't been a disappointment. All I know is in this state they have been a force for good. I don't think you will find any informed liberty person in Texas who would claim that we would be better off without them here.

[Matt Collins]

You mean like the NRA?

They have been fleecing and screwing gun owners for years. and I expect the same thing here.

and they all support a police state..
and that is the bottom line.No, NAGR does not support a police state, and yes the NRA is a bad organization most of the time. NAGR's budget is less than $20 million, the NRA's is more than $100 million. The NRA has also given themselves monopoly status by writing themselves into many state laws for training and qualification.

[Matt Collins]

If naming yourself by the acronym of an actually legitimate Gun Rights org who has been operating here for 20 years is how you are raising money, then you are crooked as hell. If you are trying to take away from a group who is in the General Assembly 3 days a week, every week, for the last 20 years when all your org does is send emails soliciting donations, you are not being effective. Unless your intend is to destroy gin rights organizations.First off, they are not "taking away" from anyone. If they are better at fundraising than the other group, then it is a free market and they deserve to raise funds. It's not like the previous group "owns" donor's discretionary money :rolleyes:



Secondly, about the name, yeah that can create some confusion I don't disagree. However my guess is that they may not have known the other group existed before they set up shop.





Shutting down and discrediting NC's only pro-gun legislators? This is what they think they can accomplish?If NAGR is attacking them, then they aren't really pro gun, or at least aren't pro-gun enough. They have very high standards.



Bullshit. You don't have the first clue what you are talking about. NC had been under liberal domination since the 1870's. In the five years since Republicans have taken back NC's government, we have made more gun right gains than any other State in the union.Ask yourself this... why was NAGR able to pass ConCarry in WV the first year they gained Republican control? Why is it taking you +5 years?




Do you even know who Larry Pittman and Michael Speciale are whom you are accusing of being "Bad Legislators?" Because I know them personally, and I have for over a decade, and you are full of shit.Are they willing to force a clean ConCarry bill to the floor of each chamber and demand a recorded vote?






You do understand that constantly accusing someone of drunkenness whenever you disagree with them is called "Libel" right? If we needed any evidence of your crooked and unprincipled nature, there it is.Then perhaps you shouldn't write as if you are intoxicated.

[GunnyFreedom]

First off, they are not "taking away" from anyone. If they are better at fundraising than the other group, then it is a free market and they deserve to raise funds. It's not like the previous group "owns" donor's discretionary money :rolleyes:

Secondly, about the name, yeah that can create some confusion I don't disagree. However my guess is that they may not have known the other group existed before they set up shop.

Considering that Grassroots NC has been active in NC for over 20 years and is familiar to every gun rights activist in the state, the fact that they may not have known about them is not exactly a recommendation.


If NAGR is attacking them, then they aren't really pro gun, or at least aren't pro-gun enough. They have very high standards.

Bullshit.


Ask yourself this... why was NAGR able to pass ConCarry in WV the first year they gained Republican control? Why is it taking you +5 years?

A couple years ago I might have considered that they had something to do with it. Now that I have seen their 'activism' up close and personal I am inclined to believe WV passed it in spite of NAGR.


Are they willing to force a clean ConCarry bill to the floor of each chamber and demand a recorded vote?

THEY are, like they were in 2015, 2013, 2011; but LEADERSHIP decides what is and is not heard in committee, and leadership is the residue of Thom Tillis. Discharge Petitions do not work. You can introduce a dozen perfect bills, but when the Speaker decides red light green light which bills are allowed to be heard in Committee, and they do not want a bill heard, then you get nothing at all done.

If Gun Rights NC had bothered to actually spend any effort at all to understand the environment here then they might have understood what is going on. This is the same reason Reilly fell apart with Brannon. The Saber orgs want to come into NC and think they can make things happen with ZERO understanding of NC politics. All politics is local. Trying to come at NC as though we were WV or LA does not work. It will not work.


Then perhaps you shouldn't write as if you are intoxicated.

Perhaps it takes a narcissistic blithering ignoramus to constantly assume anyone who doesn't worship you must be drunk, and a sociopath to not give a fuck about the real professional harm that can be done by such libelous accusations.

[Matt Collins]

Considering that Grassroots NC has been active in NC for over 20 years and is familiar to every gun rights activist in the state, the fact that they may not have known about them is not exactly a recommendation. How big is their list?




A couple years ago I might have considered that they had something to do with it. Now that I have seen their 'activism' up close and personal I am inclined to believe WV passed it in spite of NAGR. Because you don't know what you are talking about. You never took the time to learn or understand their strategy therefor you can't comprehend what is going on behind the scenes. I was the guy who first passed in WV, and I assure you, it wouldn't have happened it it weren't for our action. The locals had been working for years to get it done and couldn't.




THEY are, like they were in 2015, 2013, 2011; but LEADERSHIP decides what is and is not heard in committee, and leadership is the residue of Thom Tillis. Discharge Petitions do not work. You can introduce a dozen perfect bills, but when the Speaker decides red light green light which bills are allowed to be heard in Committee, and they do not want a bill heard, then you get nothing at all done. Have they ever tried to discharge a bill? If they haven't then that is why they are ineffective. In order to get something passed you MUST have a recorded floor vote. As you have observed, leadership doesn't want that, so you have to force the vote anyway. If the guys in there don't have enough of a spine to do that, then they really aren't helping. If they aren't willing to defy leadership, then they in fact going along with leadership.





Trying to come at NC as though we were WV or LA does not work. It will not work. Actually as someone who has traveled the country and operated in many states, I can tell you that it does in fact work the same everywhere. Politics in the US is extremely formulaic.

[fr33]

I skimmed the bill so tell me if I'm wrong. This is for unlicensed conceal carry only, right?

Google tells me that open carry is already legal in NC. It's confusing to have it called constitutional carry when they only seem to reference concealed carry in the bill's description.

[fr33]

That said, as far as NAGR in Texas goes I do have something to add. NAGR and their state affiliate here TXGR are the good guys. the leaders here are respectable grassroots liberty advocates. They are one of the few groups supporting our CC bill here.
TXGR are one of a few groups who supported open carry from the start.

The NRA and TSRA jumped on the bandwagon at the last minute when it was obvious their members were getting annoyed at them dragging their feet. I remember Charles Cotton (Mr. NRA of Texas), after Open Carry passed, was lamenting on his own forum that getting open carry passed was a waste of gun rights energy. You'll notice that the NRA and TSRA are not at all supporting the Constitutional Carry bill for this legislature session. They (Charles Cotton) spend their time criticizing Jonathan Stickland and Don Huffines, who are the strongest 2nd Amendment supporters we have in Texas. They also love Speaker of the House Joe Straus; the guy who almost killed Open Carry and the guy who will make sure Constitutional Carry never sees a vote this session.

IMO groups like NAGR are great for forcing the NRA to actually support gun rights in these state fights. All the hand-wringing over OCT in Texas was just whiny babies scared to fight for our rights.

[pcosmar]

No, NAGR does not support a police state,

You are as full of shit as the day is long.

There is NO gun organization that does not..
Every one supports Police.. and more police. and tools for police.. and Regulation of Guns..

Every Phucking One.

None call for less Police.
None insist on Leashes for the Dog.

All insist on keeping guns from some.

[Matt Collins]

Google tells me that open carry is already legal in NC. It's confusing to have it called constitutional carry when they only seem to reference concealed carry in the bill's description.
This is going to be your best resource on the subject: http://www.handgunlaw.us/states/northcarolina.pdf

[Matt Collins]

You are as full of shit as the day is long.

There is NO gun organization that does not..
Every one supports Police.. and more police. and tools for police.. and Regulation of Guns..

Every Phucking One.

None call for less Police.
None insist on Leashes for the Dog.

All insist on keeping guns from some.Nope, you are wrong. NAGR routinely fights sheriff and police associations when trying to pass Constitutional Carry.

[Matt Collins]

TXGR are one of a few groups who supported open carry from the start.

The NRA and TSRA jumped on the bandwagon at the last minute when it was obvious their members were getting annoyed at them dragging their feet. I remember Charles Cotton (Mr. NRA of Texas), after Open Carry passed, was lamenting on his own forum that getting open carry passed was a waste of gun rights energy. You'll notice that the NRA and TSRA are not at all supporting the Constitutional Carry bill for this legislature session. They (Charles Cotton) spend their time criticizing Jonathan Stickland and Don Huffines, who are the strongest 2nd Amendment supporters we have in Texas. They also love Speaker of the House Joe Straus; the guy who almost killed Open Carry and the guy who will make sure Constitutional Carry never sees a vote this session.

IMO groups like NAGR are great for forcing the NRA to actually support gun rights in these state fights. All the hand-wringing over OCT in Texas was just whiny babies scared to fight for our rights.
Yep it was disgusting what they did to Jonathan, who is one of the best legislators in the country. I watched this happen live and was about to come unglued:





https://youtu.be/a8TLoiuqjkY



As far as the NRA goes, they started actively lobbying for ConCarry in WV too once we got involved. Of course they sold out to the Sheriff's Association and compromised to exclude 18-21 year old adults from being able to carry without a permit.

[TheTexan]

Yep it was disgusting what they did to Jonathan, who is one of the best legislators in the country. I watched this happen live and was about to come unglued:


https://youtu.be/a8TLoiuqjkY

It's absolutely disgraceful - and shameful - that they would not allow a vote on his amendment, or even a vote on whether or not they should vote on it.

I expect much better voting from my representatives. I will write a letter to them, in the appropriate tone, diction, and style, that such a travesty would require.

[GunnyFreedom]

From Paul Valone:

Dear Gun Rights Supporter:

Unfortunately, the operatives from the long-discredited “National Association for Gun Rights” (appropriately enough, “NAGR”) are at it again.

The culprits are Noel Fritsch and Reilly O’Neal, both “formerly” of NAGR (but likely still working on NAGR’s behalf). And their playbook -- straight from NAGR -- is not to actually pass legislation, but rather to tell lies about pro-gun legislators and organizations, branding them “not pro-gun enough.” Why? To raise money, of course.

Recently, North Carolina Gun Rights (“NCGR”, which is likely a deliberately misleading anagram of GRNC) and one of O’Neal’s other entities, “firstinfreedomdaily,” have obliquely referred to GRNC as a “fraudulent gun rights organization,” attempted to bill brand House Bill 69 for constitutional carry as “compromise carry,” and lied about veterans supposedly being denied their rights under the bill.

Meet the scammers

To give you the flavor of the two operatives involved, O’Neal, formerly a campaign manager for Greg Brannon’s US Senate bid, and also formerly a Ron Paul campaign staffer (in conjunction with NAGR, whose principals consulted for Paul), has reportedly been disavowed by Brannon.

In addition to other dubious fundraising organizations on a variety of issues here in North Carolina, O’Neal was the subject of ethics complaints for his “Defense of Liberty PAC” (“DOLPAC”) in Maine and has been caught doing predatory fundraising in Louisiana.

Then we have Mr. Fritsch. Considered by some as responsible for sinking the US Senate bid by pro-gun Mississippi state Sen. Chris McDaniel, for whom he served as communications director, Fritsch was reportedly a subject of a grand jury investigation into whether he or others paid someone to lie about vote buying by McDaniel’s opponent. Indeed, Fritsch was so “popular” in Mississippi during the debate over constitutional carry there that his own bill sponsor threatened to call capitol police on him.

To give you a feel for Fritsch’s stability, one Mississippi reporter called Fritsch’s propensity to yell at and then hang up on reporters -- later calling them back as if they were old friends -- “Sybil-like.”

But a Mississippi legislator said it best: “I think this is just a fundraising group — a shield, a sham, a ruse," Gipson said…They're doing what they've done in other states, going after the most conservative, pro-gun rights people…”

The scam in question

The most recent (among many) fundraising letter from “The Boys From NAGR” makes a number of assertions about HB 69 which range from selectively misleading to downright false.

Scam #1: “…H.B. 69 includes numerous statutes that strip law-abiding North Carolina citizens of their God-given right to keep and bear arms guaranteed by the Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.”

Truth: HB 69 does not create any new restrictions. In order to be narrowly crafted (and more likely passed into law), the new Section 54C mirrors language in our existing concealed handgun statute, differing only in that people would no longer need permits. Meanwhile, GRNC has drafted language and recruited sponsors to remove many restrictions in OTHER legislation.

Scam #2: “…under H.B. 69, a veteran who gets a divorce or is found guilty of committing adultery could be DENIED their right to carry in North Carolina…”

Truth: Nice try, fellas, but wrong again. Under NC’s original concealed handgun statute, flawed language bars applicants who were discharged from the military under “other than honorable” conditions. GRNC has been the ONLY organization involved in trying to get that language changed as recently as the last session of the legislature, and will do so again this year. However, HB 69 does NOT MIRROR THIS LANGUAGE, instead applying only to people who were DISHONORABLY discharged, a category which does not include adultery or other minor offenses, but instead only serious crimes subject to courts martial.

Scam #3: The Boys from NAGR intimate that a new, better constitutional carry bill will be introduced by Rep. Chris Millis at their behest.

Truth: As Hertz commercials put it, “Not exactly.” While Rep. Millis (R-Onslow, Pender, GRNC ****) does plan to introduce legislation (which, presuming it is well crafted, GRNC will support), according to Millis, “The Boys from NAGR” had nothing to do with it. If Millis introduces a good bill, what will likely happen is that bits and pieces of both bills will be melded into a committee substitute which is acceptable to enough parties to secure passage. (Expect to hear lots of Fritsch-like wailing when that happens.)

The scammers are spammers: Don’t sign petition!

Straight out of the NAGR playbook (and following what they’ve done in Mississippi and elsewhere), the single and only thing The Boys from NAGR are doing is to push a “petition” for which they claim a ridiculously inflated number of signatures.

But here is their dirty little secret: While we may disagree on the effectiveness of petitions as political weapons (many argue they are too easily ignored), a petition makes an excellent ruse for predatory fundraising.

You see, the scammers are also spammers. If you sign their petition, you will receive endless spam dunning you for money. And if The Boys from NAGR are anything like the folks who trained them, the “thanks” you receive for signing or contributing will likely be to have your email sold to other spammers.

What you can do to pass constitutional carry

Our problem is that HB 69 is currently assigned to the NC House Judiciary I Committee, chaired by Rep. Ted Davis (R-New Hanover, GRNC *), who will likely deny it a hearing, killing it. Accordingly, we need to move the bill to the Judiciary II Committee, chaired by Rep. John Blust (R-Guilford, ***) who, thanks to your input in response to GRNC’s alert last weekend, has promised to give the bill a hearing.

To get HB 69 moved to J-2, please contact Speaker Tim Moore (R-Cleveland, ****) and Rules Chair David Lewis (R-Harnett, ***) and tell them to re-assign the bill.

GRNC: Kicking butt since 1994!

• Since 1994, only one truly “no-compromise” North Carolina gun rights organization has defended your rights;

• One organization has been primarily responsible for passing concealed carry, concealed handgun reciprocity, the purchase permit bypass, Castle Doctrine/Stand Your Ground, expansion of concealed carry into parks, restaurants, public assemblies and elsewhere;

• One organization has killed scores of proposed anti-gun bills;

• One organization sued Winston-Salem and forced dozens of municipalities to repeal illegal anti-gun ordinances and remove posting signs from parks and elsewhere;

• One organization forced hundreds of stores and restaurants to remove “no firearms signs”

• One NC organization has sued to overturn NC’s “state of emergency” gun ban, reinforcing your right to self protection during riots and natural disasters ...

...and only one organization can get constitutional carry passed in North Carolina.

That organization is Grass Roots North Carolina.

And unlike the poseurs, GRNC vows to put your money to use more efficiently and effectively than any other organization in defending your rights.

Armatissimi e liberissimi,


F. Paul Valone
President, Grass Roots North Carolina
Executive Director, Rights Watch International

[GunnyFreedom]

These are the people whom NAGR is attacking, and whom Matt Collins is here attacking as "not pro gun enough:"


Michael Speciale
8 hrs ·
I submitted four bills today to allow the voters to clean up some NC Constitutional issues. If passed by both houses, they will be on the ballot in Nov 2018 for you to decide.
1. Remove the literacy test required to vote in Article VI section 4. This is no longer done and was put in the constitution by democrats during the jim crow era to keep blacks from voting. It needs to be removed.
2. Remove the reconstruction era mandate forever prohibiting secession in Article I section 4. This is not a bill to secede.
3. Remove the authority of the General Assembly to regulate concealed carry at the end of Article I section 30. This is necessary for constitutional carry in NC.
4. Remove the words '...and government...' from Article I section 5. It currently reads "Every citizen of this state owes paramount allegiance to the Constitution and government of the United States...". We DO NOT owe the government our allegiance, we owe our country and constitution our allegiance. This needs to be corrected.

http://ncleg.net/gascripts/BillLookUp/BillLookUp.pl?Session=2017&BillID=H145


A BILL TO BE ENTITLED
AN ACT TO REPEAL THE CONSTITUTIONAL PROVISION ALLOWING THE REGULATION OF CARRYING A CONCEALED WEAPON.

The General Assembly of North Carolina enacts:

SECTION 1. Section 30 of Article I of the North Carolina Constitution reads as rewritten:

"Sec. 30. Militia and the right to bear arms.
A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed; and, as standing armies in time of peace are dangerous to liberty, they shall not be maintained, and the military shall be kept under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power. Nothing herein shall justify the practice of carrying concealed weapons, or prevent the General Assembly from enacting penal statutes against that practice."

SECTION 2. The amendment set out in Section 1 of this act shall be submitted to the qualified voters of the State at a statewide election to be conducted in November of 2018, which election shall be conducted under the laws then governing elections in the State. The question to be used in the voting systems and ballots shall be:

"[ ] FOR [ ] AGAINST
A constitutional amendment to repeal the provision which provides that the General Assembly may prohibit the practice of carrying concealed weapons."

SECTION 3. If a majority of votes cast on the question are in favor of the amendment set out in Section 1 of this act, the State Board of Elections shall certify the amendment to the Secretary of State. The Secretary of State shall enroll the amendment so certified among the permanent records of that office. The amendment set out in Section 1 of this act becomes effective upon certification.

SECTION 4. This act is effective when it becomes law.

[pcosmar]

A BILL TO BE ENTITLED
AN ACT TO REPEAL THE CONSTITUTIONAL PROVISION ALLOWING THE REGULATION OF CARRYING A CONCEALED WEAPON.

I like that idea.
Several states had prohibition to concealed carry written n their State Constitution.
While Open Carry was common and acceptable,,, concealing a weapon was considered dishonest. and was prohibited.

I am personally in favor of open carry. (were I allowed) but it should be wholly up to the individual..

and NONE of the "states" business.

[Matt Collins]

These are the people whom NAGR is attacking, and whom Matt Collins is here attacking as "not pro gun enough:"I don't know anything about them... are they willing to force a full recorded floor vote on Constitutional Carry?

[Matt Collins]

Straight out of the NAGR playbook (and following what they’ve done in Mississippi and elsewhere)Oh you mean like actually making Constitutional Carry law? :rolleyes: :D

[phill4paul]

I don't know anything about them... are they willing to force a full recorded floor vote on Constitutional Carry?

Perhaps that is the whole problem. NCGR moved into GRNC space without even....consulting? Didn't call them on the phone? No? They were just going to adopt the acronym and start shit? Does that sound like a winning plan? Or does it seem like a sleazy money grabbing slime.
As a Cackalackian it seems pretty sleazy money grabbing operation to me.
So tell me, if these guys are so good why is the word spreading that they are shysters?

[GunnyFreedom]

I don't know anything about them... are they willing to force a full recorded floor vote on Constitutional Carry?
No shit you don't know anything about them. And yet you accused them of being anti gun. That should be all any rational person needs to know about you.

[GunnyFreedom]

Oh you mean like actually making Constitutional Carry law? :rolleyes: :D
No.

[GunnyFreedom]

Perhaps that is the whole problem. NCGR moved into GRNC space without even....consulting? Didn't call them on the phone? No? They were just going to adopt the acronym and start shit? Does that sound like a winning plan? Or does it seem like a sleazy money grabbing slime.
As a Cackalackian it seems pretty sleazy money grabbing operation to me.
So tell me, if these guys are so good why is the word spreading that they are shysters?

Well they pissed me off pretty good but now that Matt Collins has compounded it I will be devoting my 2nd Amendment speech to the NCRLC tomorrow night to exposing these criminals as the enemies of NC gun owners they are.

[phill4paul]

Well they pissed me off pretty good but now that Matt Collins has compounded it I will be devoting my 2nd Amendment speech to the NCRLC tomorrow night to exposing these criminals as the enemies of NC gun owners they are.

I'm going to get something condensed together and send to social media friends. This shit just pisses me off.

[Matt Collins]

No shit you don't know anything about them. And yet you accused them of being anti gun. That should be all any rational person needs to know about you.Answer the question: are they willing to force a full recorded roll call vote to the floor? Yes, or no?

[Matt Collins]

Perhaps that is the whole problem. NCGR moved into GRNC space without even....consulting? This statement presupposes that GRNC has some sort of monopoly or ownership over the pro-gun rights movement in NC.





Didn't call them on the phone? Honestly, no, they probably didn't. And when I worked there I did encourage them to do more outreach like that in order to prevent or at least minimize butthurt like this. See my next line below:



So tell me, if these guys are so good why is the word spreading that they are shysters?Because people get emotional when the professionals move in after years and years of doing the same thing. It's like a band that suddenly becomes popular and mainstream, the original fan base accuses them of selling out. It's just human nature. People have vested interests in keeping their little fiefdom and are tribal and territorial.


That being said, even if NAGR did do some grassroots warming up in advance, as I recommended when I worked there, it probably wouldn't change some people's attitudes because of the jealousy aspect (see Gunny). I had the same problem in WV with the locals too though.

I guess over the years they have found it better just to not pre-warn the local groups that they are setting up shop so that the local groups get less advance notice to be able to undermine their efforts.

[Matt Collins]

Well they pissed me off pretty good but now that Matt Collins has compounded it I will be devoting my 2nd Amendment speech to the NCRLC tomorrow night to exposing these criminals as the enemies of NC gun owners they are.LOL, I am sure that will make a huge difference ha ha ha :D

[phill4paul]

This statement presupposes that GRNC has some sort of monopoly or ownership over the pro-gun rights movement in NC.

They are the local/state advocates. Glen made clear the situation. To steal an acronym and make the local grass roots org. seem like bad guys is going to fail. And I'm going to help it fail.[/QUOTE]

Have fun. I'm spreading the word. And those I know will spread the word.

[Matt Collins]

To steal an acronym and make the local grass roots org. seem like bad guys is going to fail. And I'm going to help it fail.
You have no clue how things work. NAGR's list is at LEAST 10 times bigger than the list that the local group has, guaranteed.


Nice to see you being a traitor to the cause of freedom though.

[Matt Collins]

To steal an acronym and make the local grass roots org. seem like bad guys is going to fail. And I'm going to help it fail.You have no clue how things work. NAGR's list is at LEAST 10 times bigger than the list that the local group has, guaranteed.


Nice to see you being a traitor to the cause of freedom though.

[pcosmar]

You have no clue how things work. NAGR's list is at LEAST 10 times bigger than the list that the local group has, guaranteed.



Oh,, you know something about lists of donors?

[phill4paul]

You have no clue how things work. NAGR's list is at LEAST 10 times bigger than the list that the local group has, guaranteed.


Nice to see you being a traitor to the cause of freedom though.


Oh,, you know something about lists of donors?

If you call a man that conceals, and open carries, without a license or government approve a traitor then I think you need to re-define your definition of "traitor." Stay the fuck out of my state Matt. I'm pretty sure at this point your affiliations just hit a brick wall.

[GunnyFreedom]

Answer the question: are they willing to force a full recorded roll call vote to the floor? Yes, or no?
You obviously do not know how the North Carolina General Assembly even works. Which is even more evidence that you and your shit-stack ilk need to stay the fk out of North Carolina.

[GunnyFreedom]

This statement presupposes that GRNC has some sort of monopoly or ownership over the pro-gun rights movement in NC.




Honestly, no, they probably didn't. And when I worked there I did encourage them to do more outreach like that in order to prevent or at least minimize butthurt like this. See my next line below:


Because people get emotional when the professionals move in after years and years of doing the same thing. It's like a band that suddenly becomes popular and mainstream, the original fan base accuses them of selling out. It's just human nature. People have vested interests in keeping their little fiefdom and are tribal and territorial.


That being said, even if NAGR did do some grassroots warming up in advance, as I recommended when I worked there, it probably wouldn't change some people's attitudes because of the jealousy aspect (see Gunny). I had the same problem in WV with the locals too though.

Bullshit. You obviously do not have the first clue about what motivates me. Your constant inaccurate speculation about my jealousy or my drunkenness further demonstrates that you are talking out of your ass.


I guess over the years they have found it better just to not pre-warn the local groups that they are setting up shop so that the local groups get less advance notice to be able to undermine their efforts.

Or they are just grubbing for money against a convenient target, and have discovered that sneak attacks and claiming credit for what they had nothing to do with work better than trying to fool the people who have actually been in the trenches for decades.

[Matt Collins]

Bullshit. You obviously do not have the first clue about what motivates me. Your constant inaccurate speculation about my jealousy or my drunkenness further demonstrates that you are talking out of your assActions speak louder than words

[Matt Collins]

You obviously do not know how the North Carolina General Assembly even works. Which is even more evidence that you and your shit-stack ilk need to stay the fk out of North Carolina.
In the House rule #39 and in the Senate rule #47. While a discharge in the Senate is not possible unless someone in leadership is on your side, it is possible in the House.


Barring a discharge petition, make a motion to amend a bill on the floor with Constitutional Carry language. If they rule it non-germane then challenge the decision of the chair with a roll call vote. That is the recorded vote for or against ConCarry. Or one could simply push to suspend the rules in order to bring a bill to the floor. That is also the recorded vote you need. Either way, you then have a nice list of legislators who are for and against ConCarry. Procedural votes count too.


Do I have to spell everything out for you? :rolleyes:

[GunnyFreedom]

In the House rule #39 and in the Senate rule #47. While a discharge in the Senate is not possible unless someone in leadership is on your side, it is possible in the House.


Barring a discharge petition, make a motion to amend a bill on the floor with Constitutional Carry language. If they rule it non-germane then challenge the decision of the chair with a roll call vote. That is the recorded vote for or against ConCarry. Or one could simply push to suspend the rules in order to bring a bill to the floor. That is also the recorded vote you need. Either way, you then have a nice list of legislators who are for and against ConCarry. Procedural votes count too.


Do I have to spell everything out for you? :rolleyes:

First, just because something is possible in the rules does not mean it is possible in reality. I had the Speaker Pro Tem on my Discharge Petition for the NC Jobs Bill in 2011 *AND* I had the necessary signatures, but in reality, the Speaker runs things and does WTF he wants.

Second, North Carolina does not allow off-topic amendments, and the Bill Sponsor must approve any amendment that changes the title. There is no appeal.

Again you have no clue WTF you are talking about, neither did Reilly O'Neil, and neither does NAGR. If any of you lot had two brain cells to rub together you would have sought local allies up front who understand the political landscape in North Carolina. Instead, you will continue to fail, you will continue to set back liberty in NC with your ham-handed thumb-fingered ignorance.

But what's even worse than your ignorance, is your prideful ignorance. You lot keep coming to NC and sticking your dicks in, getting them chopped off, and then trying to blame the people like me who told you that you were doing it wrong.

Honestly I wouldn't even care that your people kept discrediting themselves except they are eroding the very real and thus-far successful long term plans that we have been enacting.

How about you and your kind stay the Fk out of North Carolina where you have no clue what is going on or how to get things done, and stop hindering those of us who DO know from actually doing it eh?

[CPUd]

Second, North Carolina does not allow off-topic amendments, and the Bill Sponsor must approve any amendment that changes the title. There is no appeal.



This seems like something that could solve a lot of problems in the US House.

[Matt Collins]

First, just because something is possible in the rules does not mean it is possible in reality. I had the Speaker Pro Tem on my Discharge Petition for the NC Jobs Bill in 2011 *AND* I had the necessary signatures, but in reality, the Speaker runs things and does WTF he wants.

Second, North Carolina does not allow off-topic amendments, and the Bill Sponsor must approve any amendment that changes the title. There is no appeal. You force the vote anyway and challenge the ruling of the chair or move to suspend the rules. You'll lose but of course but either method will get you the roll call that is needed to see who is for and against Constitutional Carry. It's not rocket science.




The rest of your post isn't even worth reading, much less responding to.



So, are the two legislators you mentioned willing to stick their neck out for the cause of liberty, or not?

[GunnyFreedom]

You force the vote anyway and challenge the ruling of the chair or move to suspend the rules. You'll lose but of course but either method will get you the roll call that is needed to see who is for and against Constitutional Carry. It's not rocket science.




The rest of your post isn't even worth reading, much less responding to.



So, are the two legislators you mentioned willing to stick their neck out for the cause of liberty, or not?

They do. Every day. While you are busy pounding your pud they are risking their necks.

And you still have zero clue how reality works. If the Bill Sponsor says, "No, I am not willing to change the Bill title" then there is no vote to force, because there is no vote, dumbass. Even if your contrived method were even possible in actual, you know, reality; spitting in the faces of your caucus will get you blackballed and back-benched.

[Matt Collins]

spitting in the faces of your caucus will get you blackballed and back-benched.And the truth finally come out... these guys are indeed apparently putting politics ahead of principle and are unilling to stand up against leadership because they care more about what their "Esteemed colleagues" think about them then actually moving the ball towards the goal. They don't want to be on the bad side of the establishment lulz.... I just never thought you of all people would be defending it.


However I always knew I'd get the real answer out of you eventually. And now I know exactly why NAGR is beating them up. Thank you for confirming it for me

[Richard Spencer]

This thread can be summed up in this one picture:

http://i.imgur.com/AofAXqt.png

[GunnyFreedom]

And the truth finally come out... these guys are indeed apparently putting politics ahead of principle and are unilling to stand up against leadership because they care more about what their "Esteemed colleagues" think about them then actually moving the ball towards the goal. They don't want to be on the bad side of the establishment lulz.... I just never thought you of all people would be defending it.


However I always knew I'd get the real answer out of you eventually. And now I know exactly why NAGR is beating them up. Thank you for confirming it for me

aaand that's why the only things you have ever accomplished, are to take credit for the accomplishments of others.

[TheTexan]

aaand that's why the only things you have ever accomplished, are to take credit for the accomplishments of others.

If I remember correctly, he basically single handedly got Rand Paul elected

Collins will deny that of course, but that's just cus hes so humble

[Keith and stuff]

...but that's just cus hes so humble

What a great American indeed!

[Matt Collins]

aaand that's why the only things you have ever accomplished, are to take credit for the accomplishments of others.
#FAIL


Please try again:


https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem

[GunnyFreedom]

#FAIL


Please try again:


https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem

Holy fuck! You've totally convinced me! :eek:

[phill4paul]

#FAIL


Please try again:


https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ad-hominem

I've said before you would get a neg. rep everytime I find you using a logical fallacy meme. True to my word...you get one.

[Bryan]

This thread gets an A+ for debate content but an F with being civil.

IMO, your position comes off best when you stick to facts and logic. Name calling and such weakens the discussion value and can divert attention from your valid points. I find this true even if you are responding to an attack.

Remember, we generally have the same goals but our experiences and values can give us different approaches to a problem. Disagreements in one area should not lead to bad blood.

[phill4paul]

This thread gets an A+ for debate content but an F with being civil.

IMO, your position comes off best when you stick to facts and logic. Name calling and such weakens the discussion value and can divert attention from your valid points. I find this true even if you are responding to an attack.

Remember, we generally have the same goals but our experiences and values can give us different approaches to a problem. Disagreements in one area should not lead to bad blood.

The shit started in post #17. I call it as I seez it....


You have to be able to raise money in order to be consistently effective.

Uh no. They pick very specific targets where they think they have a chance to achieve victory. They are also responsible for stopping the Toomey-Manchin gun control bill (which the NRA supported).

If they are setting up shop in NC it is because they think they have a chance to accomplish something.



It seems to me that you are just jealous someone who is professional is infringing in your fiefdom. You really should be welcoming the help.



There is no way for them to "divert" money from other groups... Seems like you somehow think some groups are entitled to money :rolleyes:

A few points...

- you should be glad you have help if you really care about the issues, but it sounds like you are jealous. Of course I know the real reason, you are still butthurt that Brannon's campaign didn't hire you.

- if a local group has been operating for 20 years and hasn't already passed Constitutional Carry, especially in a state like NC where it is achievable, then that group is obviously ineffective. This is how it normally is across the country, lots of the state level pro-gun groups are not run by full time professionals and dont know how to raise money or cause political pain, gotv, etc.

- just because a legislator is pro-gun doesn't mean that they are a good legislator. If they aren't willing to vote on pro-gun measures then they are not helping the cause. Only leaders are willing to introduce bills AND force recorded floor votes on these bills.




I do agree that his personality lends himself to earning that label sometimes.


LOL, no one is scamming anything from anyone. As someone who has raised money for them and worked for them, I can assure you that they are very frugal and use their money to achieve victories... places like Missouri, Mississippi, West Virginia, and others just to name a few. They are working on getting it passed in SD this year too.


If that is the case, then why haven't they passed Constitutional Carry? :rolleyes:

NAGR can pass it anywhere in less than 10 years (CA, NY, IL, MA, CT, RI excluded) and in most cases they can pass it in 4-6 years.


They are not trying to undo anyone's work. But if a legislator doesn't meet their exceptionally high standards, then yeah, they are going to give them some grief.

Off passing Constitutional Carry in other states. Congrats on your victories though, but you should be excited to have help. Again you are coming off as a whining kid here who doesn't want anyone else playing with his toys. Not to mention that your cussing is exceptionally immature and unprofessional.

As previously mentioned, you really shouldn't drink and post.

[Matt Collins]

I've said before you would get a neg. rep everytime I find you using a logical fallacy meme. True to my word...you get one.
And I care, why? :rolleyes:

[phill4paul]

And I care, why? :rolleyes:

Because an honorable man would care if his character was called into question. You don't. And so you keep using your logicalfallacy rebuttals.

[Matt Collins]

Because an honorable man would care if his character was called into question. Only if by someone who I respect, lol