Trump expects Russia to ‘return Crimea' – White House

[goldenequity]

... and here I was thinking Nikki Haley had gone full retard. Nope.

Trump expects Russia to ‘return Crimea' – White House (https://www.rt.com/usa/377346-spicer-russia-return-crimea/)

https://img.rt.com/files/2017.02/original/58a34fa0c46188ef078b46b7.jpg

US President Donald Trump has been tough on Russia
and expects Moscow to “return” the Crimea peninsula to Ukraine,
the White House spokesman told reporters.

Addressing the resignation of National Security Adviser Michael Flynn –
hounded by the media over his contacts with Russian diplomats prior to Trump’s inauguration –
Spicer pointed out that Russia “seized” Crimea under the Obama administration
and that the Trump-appointed ambassador to the UN Nikki Haley
has “strongly denounced the Russian occupation.”

"President Trump has made it very clear
that he expects the Russian government
to de-escalate violence in the Ukraine and return Crimea,"
“At the same time, he fully expects to – and wants to – get along with Russia."

“Crimea is a part of Ukraine.
Our Crimea-related sanctions will remain in place until Russia returns control of the peninsula to Ukraine,”
Haley said at the UN Security Council meeting on February 2.

Russian envoy Vitaly Churkin responded by citing the US Constitution
and pointing out that Crimeans overwhelmingly voted to join Russia,
after the US-backed coup in February 2014
overthrew the elected government in Kiev.

It is in the national and economic interest of the US
to have a good relationship with Russia, Spicer explained,
but said that Haley “speaks for the president” on the matter of Crimea.

Flynn’s resignation on Monday followed several weeks of media furor
over his telephone conversation with the Russian ambassador to the US in December,
after the outgoing Obama administration expelled 35 Russian diplomats and seized two properties.
Moscow chose not to respond in kind.

“There is nothing that General Flynn did that was a violation of any sort,” Spicer said,
explaining that the adviser was asked to resign because of Trump’s “eroding trust”
after Flynn’s accounts of the conversation to administration officials
did not square with what was leaked to the media.

[rpfocus]

HAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Trump is about to find out the hard way how much Putin respects him now. Putin stole that land and Trump is truly naive if he thinks Putin is going to give it back.

[Origanalist]

https://media.giphy.com/media/MwOuiiTfWfWgM/giphy.gif

[luctor-et-emergo]

HAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Trump is about to find out the hard way how much Putin respects him now. Putin stole that land and Trump is truly naive if he thinks Putin is going to give it back.

Indeed. And I must say, I do not worry about Putin sending any nukes. I also must say, however, that if this is going to be Trump's way of dealing with things, ah well. Enough said.

[AngryCanadian]

The Trump's admin had a change of view because the deep state declared war on the Trump's admin. The deep state wants war with Russia and McCain is already itchy,

[AngryCanadian]

HAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Trump is about to find out the hard way how much Putin respects him now. Putin stole that land and Trump is truly naive if he thinks Putin is going to give it back.

Putin stole that land?
Crimea had a referendum kid. And the results is not what MSM and Deep state were expecting.

[Ender]

HAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Trump is about to find out the hard way how much Putin respects him now. Putin stole that land and Trump is truly naive if he thinks Putin is going to give it back.

Is this sarcasm?

The US promoted a Ukraine coup. Crimea voted to go back to Russia and now Russia stole the land?

[Chomp]

Never it goes back to Ukraine. ( please, look for the Crimean history to learn more ) Crimean annexation in 1954 AD as a part of the Ukrainian SSR ,was a mistake by at those time Soviet leader N. Khruschev who believed that the USSR will last forever and ever. Even during the Soviet era, Crimea had total problems with the Ukranization. The language was Russian and Crimeans never agreed. The Godly thing, the peninsula returned back to Russia without war and bloodshed.

[rpfocus]

Putin stole that land?
Crimea had a referendum kid. And the results is not what MSM and Deep state were expecting.

Crimea held a 'referendum' AFTER Russia took over the peninsula with military force, "kid." The United Nations does not recognize Russia's annexation of Crimea as valid, so yes, it is stolen land.

[goldenequity]

What is significant to ponder is: (NOT the 'merits' of Crimea)
but
Why the 'need' to tighten/harden the rhetoric all of a sudden?
This would not help to deflect the Flynn fallout.
It won't cancel the internal intelligence war.. or the media war.. or the neocon war against Trump.
So..
Why do it?
It suggests a profound lack of confidence... a severe 'stumble'..
Sad.

It really can only suggest one thing..
the administration is (already) panicking about their 'image'...
like the little kid who suddenly feels the need to 'talk dirty'..
thinking
it will help his image as being tough.

[luctor-et-emergo]

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/02/14/world/europe/russia-cruise-missile-arms-control-treaty.html?src=twr&smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur&_r=0&referer=

I guess they are playing poker... I guess it's safe to say who is better at keeping their real emotions and intentions hidden.

[AngryCanadian]

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/02/14/world/europe/russia-cruise-missile-arms-control-treaty.html?src=twr&smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur&_r=0&referer=

I guess they are playing poker... I guess it's safe to say who is better at keeping their real emotions and intentions hidden.
But US forces marching towards near the Russian borders is ok with the news media?

[rpfocus]

Is this sarcasm?

The US promoted a Ukraine coup. Crimea voted to go back to Russia and now Russia stole the land?

You disregard the fact that Russia invaded Crimea prior to the "vote" which according to the UN has no validity anyway.

[luctor-et-emergo]

You disregard the fact that Russia invaded Crimea prior to the "vote" which according to the UN has no validity anyway.

How much validity does the UN itself have ?

[AngryCanadian]

Crimea held a 'referendum' AFTER Russia took over the peninsula with military force, "kid." The United Nations does not recognize Russia's annexation of Crimea as valid, so yes, it is stolen land.

The same United Nations which is also responablie for allowing the death and destruction of Yemeni civilians while turning a blind eye?


Crimea held a 'referendum' AFTER Russia took over the peninsula with military force
Nope.

[rpfocus]

How much validity does the UN itself have ?

Considering that most countries recognize it's resolutions as binding, I'm guessing a lot.

[rpfocus]

Nope.

Ah, alternative facts. Ok.

[AngryCanadian]

Crimea held a 'referendum' AFTER Russia took over the peninsula with military force, "kid." The United Nations does not recognize Russia's annexation of Crimea as valid, so yes, it is stolen land.

If you want to talk about annexations how about you Americans return Kosovo back to Serbia then? after all its occupied by NATO forces illegally.

[AngryCanadian]

Ah, alternative facts. Ok.

Ah Mainstream News Media facts like how you still view rebels in Syria
as moderates right?

[rpfocus]

If you want to talk about annexations how about you Americans return Kosovo back to Serbia then? after all its occupied by NATO forces illegally.

Take it up with Trump.

[rpfocus]

Ah Mainstream News Media facts like how you still view rebels in Syria
as moderates right?

I don't, but that's not really what we're discussing here.

[AngryCanadian]

Considering that most countries recognize it's resolutions as binding, I'm guessing a lot.

Funny you support the fascist Ukrainians. But thats no surprise.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C4euwj0UMAAjl3V.jpg:large

[rpfocus]

Funny you support the fascist Ukrainians.


If you say so...

[Ender]

Crimea held a 'referendum' AFTER Russia took over the peninsula with military force, "kid." The United Nations does not recognize Russia's annexation of Crimea as valid, so yes, it is stolen land.

You mean AFTER the US backed coup?

[Origanalist]

You mean AFTER the US backed coup?

Short memories....

[specsaregood]

Crimea held a 'referendum' AFTER Russia took over the peninsula with military force, "kid." The United Nations does not recognize Russia's annexation of Crimea as valid, so yes, it is stolen land.

lol @ "The united nations does not recognize"

[AngryCanadian]

If you say so...

Crimea is ethnically Russian. The Russians in Crimea never supported Kiev kid. Oh and dont even start with those Muslim Crimean Tatars. Historically belonged to Russia.

But how about we talk of bringing Kosovo back to Serbia first?

[AngryCanadian]

I don't, but that's not really what we're discussing here.

Nice deflection. Go join you're NeoCons then. It seems the Western Mainstream News Media propaganda agaisnt Russia has worked its magic on you.

[CPUd]

http://i.imgur.com/sTD7tYv.png

[shakey1]

Indeed. And I must say, I do not worry about Putin sending any nukes. I also must say, however, that if this is going to be Trump's way of dealing with things, ah well. Enough said.

Trump seems to be going into a chess match with the intent on playing checkers.

https://therearenosunglasses.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/2014-02-22-ukrainecrisis.jpg

[nikcers]

We need one of those disinformation polls because I think there is a lot of contention? I found this on some youtube channel that seemed relevant..?


It has been a very busy few days for Ukraine's parliament. They just reinstated the 2004 constitution, which basicly turns Ukraine back to a parliamentary system rather than a presidential one. The parliament also appointed a new interior minister and speaker of the parliament (both which are part of the Fatherland Party, led by the recently freed Yulia Tymoshenko), and now the parliament is moving to impeach measures against former President, Viktor Yanukovych. Or should I say current president? Because even before the impeachment proces started, the parliament dismissed Yanukovych, on grounds that he was incapable of fulfilling his presidential duties. This is very dubious because technically speaking such a charge does not excist in Ukraine's constitution. Im not defending the legitimacy Yanukovych, but the parliament simply bypassed the entire impeachment proces and thus acted against their own constitution, therefore one can argue whether this was a coup or not.

[P3ter_Griffin]

What is significant to ponder is: (NOT the 'merits' of Crimea)
but
Why the 'need' to tighten/harden the rhetoric all of a sudden?
This would not help to deflect the Flynn fallout.
It won't cancel the internal intelligence war.. or the media war.. or the neocon war against Trump.
So..
Why do it?
It suggests a profound lack of confidence... a severe 'stumble'..
Sad.

It really can only suggest one thing..
the administration is (already) panicking about their 'image'...
like the little kid who suddenly feels the need to 'talk dirty'..
thinking
it will help his image as being tough.

Personally I think you were misreading him(Trump) the whole time. Things like 'if I was president, Putin would not have gone into Ukraine', and so forth are much more in-line with his view imo, that Obammer was 'weak' and that is why foreign governments were challenging US 'interests'- implying a shared view on what US interests are with the neocons. On ze bright side, not reducing sanctions until Russia gives Crimea back implies that there will be no further escalation to make that happen.

[goldenequity]

Personally I think you were misreading him(Trump) the whole time. Things like 'if I was president, Putin would not have gone into Ukraine', and so forth are much more in-line with his view imo, that Obammer was 'weak' and that is why foreign governments were challenging US 'interests'- implying a shared view on what US interests are with the neocons. On ze bright side, not reducing sanctions until Russia gives Crimea back implies that there will be no further escalation to make that happen.
Well.. to be clear.. I was always confused by him. Still am. He could (actually) be nutz. :)

[afwjam]

Trump is such a pussy, we should send him one of those pink pussy hats.

[juleswin]

Personally I think you were misreading him(Trump) the whole time. Things like 'if I was president, Putin would not have gone into Ukraine', and so forth are much more in-line with his view imo, that Obammer was 'weak' and that is why foreign governments were challenging US 'interests'- implying a shared view on what US interests are with the neocons. On ze bright side, not reducing sanctions until Russia gives Crimea back implies that there will be no further escalation to make that happen.

This is the way I read the man. I always knew he was a neocon war monger but he was just smart enough to know that the last two president won by pretending to be anti war, so that is what he did despite his history of support american interventionist policies.

Going forward, I would not give any of them the benefit of the doubt. I will assume they are all neocons up until they prove me wrong with their actions. Cos using campaign rhetoric is worst way possible of judging them.

[silverhandorder]

Everyone jumps to conclusions during posturing. Sit down. Shut up. And wait. He might be a neocon but give him a minute to succeed or fuck up. Not like you going to change anything.

[undergroundrr]

Everyone jumps to conclusions during posturing. Sit down. Shut up. And wait. He might be a neocon but give him a minute to succeed or $#@! up. Not like you going to change anything.

I'm grateful you're not advising Rand Paul.

[P3ter_Griffin]

Everyone jumps to conclusions during posturing. Sit down. Shut up. And wait. He might be a neocon but give him a minute to succeed or fuck up. Not like you going to change anything.

Of course not. But I don't think that is what discussion on Trump and US policy is about. More about understanding the truth of what is going on around us. I would rather by overly critical of a politician and get proved wrong then allow their propaganda to influence my understanding of da truth.

[P3ter_Griffin]

This is the way I read the man. I always knew he was a neocon war monger but he was just smart enough to know that the last two president won by pretending to be anti war, so that is what he did despite his history of support american interventionist policies.

Going forward, I would not give any of them the benefit of the doubt. I will assume they are all neocons up until they prove me wrong with their actions. Cos using campaign rhetoric is worst way possible of judging them.

It really is. We got lucky with Ron, honest to the core. Maybe if we all kick in a few pieces of organ we can get Ron back to a biological age of 40. ;)

[undergroundrr]

It really is. We got lucky with Ron, honest to the core. Maybe if we all kick in a few pieces of organ we can get Ron back to a biological age of 40. ;)

People on this board tend to freak out about transhumanism, but wouldn't it be great to have an immortal cyborg Ron Paul?!?!?

[Zippyjuan]

Personally I think you were misreading him(Trump) the whole time. Things like 'if I was president, Putin would not have gone into Ukraine', and so forth are much more in-line with his view imo, that Obammer was 'weak' and that is why foreign governments were challenging US 'interests'- implying a shared view on what US interests are with the neocons. On ze bright side, not reducing sanctions until Russia gives Crimea back implies that there will be no further escalation to make that happen.

In that interview (August 1st) he said Russia would not go into Ukraine on his watch. "Write it down!" After it was pointed out Russia was already in the Ukraine he said that was Obama's fault. But he has also suggested easing sanctions on Russia which were imposed for going into the Ukraine. http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/31/politics/donald-trump-russia-ukraine-crimea-putin/


"He's not going into Ukraine, OK, just so you understand. He's not going to go into Ukraine, all right? You can mark it down. You can put it down. You can take it anywhere you want," Trump said in an interview on Sunday with ABC's George Stephanopoulos on "This Week."

"Well, he's already there, isn't he?" Stephanopoulos responded, in a reference to Crimea, which Putin took from Ukraine in early 2014.


During the ABC interview, Stephanopoulos interjected to note that Trump has suggested he could recognize Russia's claim on Crimea over Ukraine's -- and Trump didn't back away from that possibility in the interview.

"I'm going to take a look at it," he said. "But you know, the people of Crimea, from what I've heard, would rather be with Russia than where they were. And you have to look at that, also ... just so you understand, that was done under Obama's administration."

Trump added: "And as far as the Ukraine is concerned, it's a mess. And that's under the Obama's administration with his strong ties to NATO. So with all of these strong ties to NATO, Ukraine is a mess. Crimea has been taken. Don't blame Donald Trump for that."

But it looks like perhaps he is starting to listen to his generals. During confirmation hearings, Secretary of Defense Mattis and Secretary of State nominee Tillerson warned about Russia.

Mattis: http://www.militarytimes.com/articles/mattis-confirmation-hearing-sasc-trump


“Each of our last three presidents has had great expectations of building a partnership with the Russian government,” he said, referencing similar promises by Trump. “Each attempt has failed, not for lack of good faith and effort on the U.S. side, but because of a stubborn fact that we must finally recognize: (Russian President Vladimir) Putin wants to be our enemy.

“He will never be our partner … He believes that strengthening Russia means weakening America. We must proceed realistically on this basis.”

Tillerson: http://www.defensenews.com/articles/trumps-secretary-of-state-nominee-talks-tough-on-russia


n an exchange with Sen. Rob Portman, R-Wis., Tillerson said Russia’s aggressive behavior serves its goal of re-establishing its supremacy in the world order. Tillerson argued his time spent in Russia gave him the understanding that “there is scope to bring down the temperature around the conflicts we have today.”

“The important conversation we have to have with them is does Russia now and forever want to be an adversary of the United States; Do you want this to get worse or do you want a different relationship,” Tillerson said. “We’re not likely to ever be friends. Our values are starkly different.”

And more specifically to the topic of this thread- Crimea:


When he was asked whether Russia has a legal claim to Crimea, his response was a swift “no.” He argued the US had a weak response to Russia’s annexation in 2014, which inadvertently encouraged Russia to advance into eastern Ukraine, “the next illegal action."

His response, he said, would have been to recommend Ukraine mass forces on the eastern border, arm those forces with defensive lethal weapons, share intelligence with them and call on NATO to provide air surveillance.

“The absence of a very firm and forcible response to Crimea was judged by the leadership in Russia as a weak response,” Tillerson said, adding: “I think what Russia would have understood is strong response, that yes, you took Crimea, but this stops right here.”

Trying to find it but there have been previous statements about the US wanting Crimea returned to the Ukraine- can't remember if it was Trump, an official statement, or one of his cabinet nominees but they have said that before.

[AZJoe]

Putin stole that land and Trump is truly naive if he thinks Putin is going to give it back.


Crimea held a 'referendum' AFTER Russia took over the peninsula with military force, "kid." The United Nations does not recognize Russia's annexation of Crimea as valid, so yes, it is stolen land.

Someone has been tainted by the neocon koolaid. It’s understandable. The American populace has been programmed by the media. In the US, the MSM has become nothing more than a spokesperson for the Department of State propaganda. Western media spin is so blatantly unbalanced, biased and even falsified it has reached the point of absurdity.

The first and most important consideration is there would never have been a civil war faction. There never would have been a referendum if the US government had not funded a coup overthrowing the Ukraine government in the first place. US assistant secretary of State Victoria Nuland admitted the US poured $5 billion into setting up this regime change. (The US with an $18 trillion official debt by magical government accounting and $75+ trillion actual debt by accounting methods required of you and me and everyone else, the government has no business pouring a single dime into any other nation’s politics).

If Washington does not like the consequences of its actions, it should never have fostered the overthrow of the Ukraine government to begin with. Where the blame lies is with this idiotic NeoCon foreign policy implemented by Obama, Bush, Kerry, Clinton, McCain, etc. It’s intellectually defective.
(More on the Coup Below)

CRIMEA

And as for “taking over the Peninsula with military force”, it did not happen. The Russian military base in Crimea has been there for decades. It was there before the Maidan rebels and after. They did not “invade” Crimea any more than the US just invaded Cuba because there is a US naval base there. Crimea was wholly independent politically with their own legislature and their own laws, and own leaders, attached to Ukraine merely by political boundary. Its people are overwhelmingly Russian. The people of Crimea were turning to Russia for help and assistance. There was no “taking over by military force”.

When the Maidan revolution overthrew the government of Ukraine, the elected government ceased to exist. None of the regions were obligated to subjugate themselves to the revolutionaries any more than Americans would be obligated to subjugate themselves to an Occupy Wallstreet if they violently seized the Capitol. When the Ukraine government was overthrown by Washington backed Maidan rebels, Ukraine did not exist.

Crimea voted by referendum overwhelmingly to part with the rebels in Kiev. That is their right. The US should not be involved. US tried to spin that this was an election under duress. It’s BS. OSCE observed the election as well as media from all over the world. The people there are ecstatic to be parted from the Keiv regime. The people of Crimea are not out in the streets protesting the election. They aren’t demanding return to the Kiev junta. No, they are happy to be away from the Maidan rebels and Svoboda and Right Sector.

The Crimean people exercised their right to breakaway from the Washington Maidan rebels that overthrew their nation. With a voter turnout of 83.37 percent, the Crimeans voted 95.7% in favor of dissolving the political bands that once connected them with Kiev. The people there are VERY ecstatic to be parted from the Kiev regime. The people of Crimea are not out in the streets protesting the election. There are no demands to be ruled by the Kiev Maidan rebels that overthrew their elected government. They aren’t demanding return to the Kiev junta. No, they are happy to be away from the Maidan rebels and Svoboda and Right Sector.

In an attempt to discredit the referendum, even a western sponsored post referendum Gallup polled showed that 68.4% of the Ukrainians in Crimea believed the result was legitimate. Moreover 73.9% of the Ukrainians in Crimea felt that joining Russia would make their lives better. And when another Gallup poll was taken a year later 93% of the total population endorsed the joining of Russia and only 2 percent opposed.http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoz.../#40996df5951b (http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2015/03/20/one-year-after-russia-annexed-crimea-locals-prefer-moscow-to-kiev/#40996df5951b)

Funny how the supposed “pro-democracy” Washington supports the violent overthrow of the elected democratic government of Ukraine, and then opposes Crimea’s act of democracy, of self–determination.

And a little background for context: Crimea was never previously part of Ukraine. Crimea was “gifted” to Ukraine by Kruschev in 1954 when they were both in the Soviet Union. At that time it was a purely symbolic but meaningless in practice, nothing more than a gesture as they were both part of the Soviet Union. When the Soviet Union ceased to exist, Ukraine came out of it larger than it went in. At least on boundaries it now had Crimea as well as Russian province in the east made up of Russian people speaking Russian.

Likewise the people of Donetsk, Kharkov, Lugansk, all also have the same right to self-determination. The destruction of the elected government of Ukraine by the Maidan rebels, gives them the right to part ways. The government of Ukraine they once belonged to, exists no more. They have the right to self-determination and neither the US, nor Russia, nor EU, nor any nation should interfere with their right to self-determination. Just as the US parted ways from England, they have even greater justification to part from the Kiev Maidan rebel regime.

The only reason the incompetent Kiev regime refuses any diplomatic solution with the eastern territory (independence, political independence, self-governing like Crimea had, etc) is because they perceive they are backed militarily, politically, fiscally by the giant – US government. If the US stopped interfering like a bull in a China shop, not only would none of these events ever transpired, but the Kiev Regime would already have been forced to sit down and establish a workable solution with the citizens in the East.

The US government has no consistent policy. They support independence movements if the political agenda can exploit it and oppose it if doing so fuels the US political elite’s agenda. The Washington supported independence of Kosovo. Where two weeks before changing policy the US listed the KLA Kosovo Liberation Army as the number one terrorist organization. Then simply took them off the list and supported their independence. Why? Simply because they wanted to poke a finger in the eye of Russia when they thought it was weak. Serbia was politically loyal to Russia. And the result? The US created the first and only openly Muslim based political government in the heart of Europe.


BACK TO THE MAIDAN COUP CONTINUED

Even before Yanukovych was ousted from office, you have the taped conversation of US Assistant Secretary of State Victoria “Yats is the guy” Nuland discussing with the US ambassador to Ukraine, Geoffrey Pyatt. They were determining who to select to install as the leader of Ukraine. When the recording was leaked, the US media focused all the hoopla on the fact Nuland said “Fuck the E.U.” Well that reflects the juvenile mentality of the egotists running US foreign policy and the contempt they have for Europe and U.S. trading partners, but that is nothing but a distraction. The real issue was the fact the Washington was selecting the new leader of Ukraine - and doing so even before the Ukraine government was overthrown, while the elected president Yanukovych was still in office.

And who did Nuland and Pyatt pick? Why they picked Arseniy Yatsenyuk. Their joint selection in the conversation decided “Yats is the guy.” And sure enough who became prime minister after the regime change coup? – Why it was Arseniy Yatsenyuk. What great luck!

Washington has no business whatsoever selecting the leaders or any foreign nation. It must respect the sovereignty of other nations. That is what American exceptionalism means – respecting the sovereignty of other nations. Sure the prior Ukraine government was corrupt. So is the current government. So is any puppet the U.S. chooses. So was every prior Ukraine government since its beginning in 1991. Nevertheless it belongs to the Ukraine people, not Washington. It is their country, their process, their leaders, their government. It does not belong to the USA. It does not border the USA. It is not even in the same continent let alone the same hemisphere as the USA.

During the Maidan revolution, Victoria “Yats is the guy” Nuland was down on the street handing out pastries and goodies to the rebels. John McCain went to Ukraine and did photo ops and campaign stumps with Svoboda and Right Sector. These are openly Nazi parties with actual swastikas and heil salutes. This is what Washington supported.

And think about how embarrassing that is. Imagine if the Venezuelan ambassador joined in operation Wall Street protests and gave away goodies in support; or foreign Chinese or Russian politicians came to USA to campaign for US politicians, or a Putin ambassador came to the USA to support the tea party movement. Think about how ridiculously insulting that is. But that is what our politicians are doing. Thanks McCain.

And what was the precipitating factor to cause Washington to push the Coup through at the beginning of 2014. It was the fact Ukraine rejected the E.U. trade agreement in favor of the Russian trade agreement. When you look at the actual proposals, it was a complete no brainer. It was not even a close call. The E.U. offered $5 billion in loans, and in exchange they would have more open trade with the E.U., however in return the Ukraine’s monetary policy would be dictated by the European Central Bank. Additionally, Ukraine’s fiscal directives would be subject to requirements by the E.U. In other words they would become a puppet state under the thumb of E.U. fiscal and monetary control like Greece or Portugal. Additionally, Ukraine’s natural gas, farm and commodity resources would be open to “investment” and 50% ownership by European companies. Additionally, they were forbidden from entering separate trade agreements with Russia or China.

That does not sound like a deal, that sounds like an ass raping by the E.U. They were right to reject it even if Russia had not even offered any alternative. But let’s look at what Russia offered. Russia offered $15 billion in low interest loans. That’s three times the available loans. Plus, those loans came with no mandates over Ukraine monetary or fiscal decisions. That’s not to say there is no influence. Of course there is influence between a large creditor and a debtor nation, especially when it is Ukraine’s largest trading partner and has an extensive joint cultural history going back thousands of years. But influence is separate from mandates placing them under the control of a foreign entity. Ukraine keeps its sovereignty. In addition, the Russian trade agreement gave Ukraine completely open trade access for all goods and services with Russia, Belarus and Kazakhstan. Russia is solidly Ukraine’s largest trading partner. In addition, Ukraine would also receive subsidized prices to Russian natural gas at nearly half the price on the world market. Lastly the Russian agreement had no provision preventing Ukraine from entering any free trade agreements with any other nations.

All in all, the decision was not even a close choice by any margin. It was a no brainer. And sure enough the democratically elected government of Ukraine chose the Russian deal and rejected the E.U. deal. And rationally they should have rejected the E.U. deal even if there was no Russian proposal on the table at all. Nevertheless the U.S. could not fathom that a foreign sovereign government would not do as it says. The U.S. neocon foreign policy is all about force – bribe them or regime change or bomb them. Don’t do as we say and it’s time for “regime change.”

And who was the coalition Washington put together with its NGOs like the NED for this Maidan revolution? (By the way NGO or Non-governmental organization is a misnomer because they are funded by the government) Why it was a coalition of a couple fascist parties with a couple openly NAZI parties – Svoboda and Right Sector. This is utter madness.

And aside from the fact it is a sovereign nation in which the US should not be meddling in its internal affairs and politics at all, the US has absolutely no significant interest in Ukraine at all. Ukraine borders Russia, not USA. In fact it’s not even in the same continent as the USA. It’s not even in the same hemisphere.

By contrast it does border Russia. Russia is its largest trading partner. It has a long cultural history with Russia going back millennia, before USA even existed or even before Columbus ever set sail. In fact Ukraine is the birthplace of Russia. Kiev was the original capital of Rus. It wasn’t until Kiev got sacked by the Mongols that the capital was transferred to Muscovy.

Imagine if Russia poured $5 billion into overthrowing the government of Canada or Mexico on USA’’s border. And they used a coalition of Nazi parties to do so. Then they tried to install their own puppet government. Do you think the US might not sit idly by and let it happen? Of course not.

Now imagine it is not only Canada or Mexico, but imagine a country with close cultural history such as England actually bordered the USA, and Russia fostered a coup in England and overthrew their government and installed their puppets. Would you expect USA to sit by and do nothing?

By contrast, Russia has shown extreme restraint compared to what the US would have done. The US would already have invaded.

And the western spin on everything is ridiculous. The US Department of State is now the US Department of State Propaganda. It runs circles around anything the old Soviet Union could ever have imagined with Pravda, and US media are not journalists, but act like spokespersons for Obama’s Department of State Propaganda. One has to turn to alternative or foreign media to find any sense of balance to accurately investigate issues these days.

[AngryCanadian]

Someone has been tainted by the neocon koolaid. It’s understandable. The American populace has been programmed by the media. In the US, the MSM has become nothing more than a spokesperson for the Department of State propaganda. Western media spin is so blatantly unbalanced, biased and even falsified it has reached the point of absurdity.

The first and most important consideration is there would never have been a civil war faction. There never would have been a referendum if the US government had not funded a coup overthrowing the Ukraine government in the first place. US assistant secretary of State Victoria Nuland admitted the US poured $5 billion into setting up this regime change. (The US with an $18 trillion official debt by magical government accounting and $75+ trillion actual debt by accounting methods required of you and me and everyone else, the government has no business pouring a single dime into any other nation’s politics).


If Washington does not like the consequences of its actions, it should never have fostered the overthrow of the Ukraine government to begin with. Where the blame lies is with this idiotic NeoCon foreign policy implemented by Obama, Bush, Kerry, Clinton, McCain, etc. It’s intellectually defective.
(More on the Coup Below)

CRIMEA

And as for “taking over the Peninsula with military force”, it did not happen. The Russian military base in Crimea has been there for decades. It was there before the Maidan rebels and after. They did not “invade” Crimea any more than the US just invaded Cuba because there is a US naval base there. Crimea was wholly independent politically with their own legislature and their own laws, and own leaders, attached to Ukraine merely by political boundary. Its people are overwhelmingly Russian. The people of Crimea were turning to Russia for help and assistance. There was no “taking over by military force”.

When the Maidan revolution overthrew the government of Ukraine, the elected government ceased to exist. None of the regions were obligated to subjugate themselves to the revolutionaries any more than Americans would be obligated to subjugate themselves to an Occupy Wallstreet if they violently seized the Capitol. When the Ukraine government was overthrown by Washington backed Maidan rebels, Ukraine did not exist.

Crimea voted by referendum overwhelmingly to part with the rebels in Kiev. That is their right. The US should not be involved. US tried to spin that this was an election under duress. It’s BS. OSCE observed the election as well as media from all over the world. The people there are ecstatic to be parted from the Keiv regime. The people of Crimea are not out in the streets protesting the election. They aren’t demanding return to the Kiev junta. No, they are happy to be away from the Maidan rebels and Svoboda and Right Sector.

The Crimean people exercised their right to breakaway from the Washington Maidan rebels that overthrew their nation. With a voter turnout of 83.37 percent, the Crimeans voted 95.7% in favor of dissolving the political bands that once connected them with Kiev. The people there are VERY ecstatic to be parted from the Kiev regime. The people of Crimea are not out in the streets protesting the election. There are no demands to be ruled by the Kiev Maidan rebels that overthrew their elected government.
They aren’t demanding return to the Kiev junta. No, they are happy to be away from the Maidan rebels and Svoboda and Right Sector.

In an attempt to discredit the referendum, even a western sponsored post referendum Gallup polled showed that 68.4% of the Ukrainians in Crimea believed the result was legitimate. Moreover 73.9% of the Ukrainians in Crimea felt that joining Russia would make their lives better. And when another Gallup poll was taken a year later 93% of the total population endorsed the joining of Russia and only 2 percent opposed.http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoz.../#40996df5951b (http://www.forbes.com/sites/kenrapoza/2015/03/20/one-year-after-russia-annexed-crimea-locals-prefer-moscow-to-kiev/#40996df5951b)

Funny how the supposed “pro-democracy” Washington supports the violent overthrow of the elected democratic government of Ukraine, and then opposes Crimea’s act of democracy, of self–determination.

And a little background for context: Crimea was never previously part of Ukraine. Crimea was “gifted” to Ukraine by Kruschev in 1954 when they were both in the Soviet Union. At that time it was a purely symbolic but meaningless in practice, nothing more than a gesture as they were both part of the Soviet Union. When the Soviet Union ceased to exist, Ukraine came out of it larger than it went in. At least on boundaries it now had Crimea as well as Russian province in the east made up of Russian people speaking Russian.

Likewise the people of Donetsk, Kharkov, Lugansk, all also have the same right to self-determination. The destruction of the elected government of Ukraine by the Maidan rebels, gives them the right to part ways. The government of Ukraine they once belonged to, exists no more. They have the right to self-determination and neither the US, nor Russia, nor EU, nor any nation should interfere with their right to self-determination. Just as the US parted ways from England, they have even greater justification to part from the Kiev Maidan rebel regime.

The only reason the incompetent Kiev regime refuses any diplomatic solution with the eastern territory (independence, political independence, self-governing like Crimea had, etc) is because they perceive they are backed militarily, politically, fiscally by the giant – US government. If the US stopped interfering like a bull in a China shop, not only would none of these events ever transpired, but the Kiev Regime would already have been forced to sit down and establish a workable solution with the citizens in the East.

The US government has no consistent policy. They support independence movements if the political agenda can exploit it and oppose it if doing so fuels the US political elite’s agenda. The Washington supported independence of Kosovo. Where two weeks before changing policy the US listed the KLA Kosovo Liberation Army as the number one terrorist organization. Then simply took them off the list and supported their independence. Why? Simply because they wanted to poke a finger in the eye of Russia when they thought it was weak. Serbia was politically loyal to Russia. And the result? The US created the first and only openly Muslim based political government in the heart of Europe.


BACK TO THE MAIDAN COUP CONTINUED

Even before Yanukovych was ousted from office, you have the taped conversation of US Assistant Secretary of State Victoria “Yats is the guy” Nuland discussing with the US ambassador to Ukraine, Geoffrey Pyatt. They were determining who to select to install as the leader of Ukraine. When the recording was leaked, the US media focused all the hoopla on the fact Nuland said “$#@! the E.U.” Well that reflects the juvenile mentality of the egotists running US foreign policy and the contempt they have for Europe and U.S. trading partners, but that is nothing but a distraction. The real issue was the fact the Washington was selecting the new leader of Ukraine - and doing so even before the Ukraine government was overthrown, while the elected president Yanukovych was still in office.

And who did Nuland and Pyatt pick? Why they picked Arseniy Yatsenyuk. Their joint selection in the conversation decided “Yats is the guy.” And sure enough who became prime minister after the regime change coup? – Why it was Arseniy Yatsenyuk. What great luck!

Washington has no business whatsoever selecting the leaders or any foreign nation. It must respect the sovereignty of other nations. That is what American exceptionalism means – respecting the sovereignty of other nations. Sure the prior Ukraine government was corrupt. So is the current government. So is any puppet the U.S. chooses. So was every prior Ukraine government since its beginning in 1991. Nevertheless it belongs to the Ukraine people, not Washington. It is their country, their process, their leaders, their government. It does not belong to the USA. It does not border the USA. It is not even in the same continent let alone the same hemisphere as the USA.

During the Maidan revolution, Victoria “Yats is the guy” Nuland was down on the street handing out pastries and goodies to the rebels. John McCain went to Ukraine and did photo ops and campaign stumps with Svoboda and Right Sector. These are openly Nazi parties with actual swastikas and heil salutes. This is what Washington supported.

And think about how embarrassing that is. Imagine if the Venezuelan ambassador joined in operation Wall Street protests and gave away goodies in support; or foreign Chinese or Russian politicians came to USA to campaign for US politicians, or a Putin ambassador came to the USA to support the tea party movement. Think about how ridiculously insulting that is. But that is what our politicians are doing. Thanks McCain.

And what was the precipitating factor to cause Washington to push the Coup through at the beginning of 2014. It was the fact Ukraine rejected the E.U. trade agreement in favor of the Russian trade agreement. When you look at the actual proposals, it was a complete no brainer. It was not even a close call. The E.U. offered $5 billion in loans, and in exchange they would have more open trade with the E.U., however in return the Ukraine’s monetary policy would be dictated by the European Central Bank. Additionally, Ukraine’s fiscal directives would be subject to requirements by the E.U. In other words they would become a puppet state under the thumb of E.U. fiscal and monetary control like Greece or Portugal. Additionally, Ukraine’s natural gas, farm and commodity resources would be open to “investment” and 50% ownership by European companies. Additionally, they were forbidden from entering separate trade agreements with Russia or China.

That does not sound like a deal, that sounds like an ass raping by the E.U. They were right to reject it even if Russia had not even offered any alternative. But let’s look at what Russia offered. Russia offered $15 billion in low interest loans. That’s three times the available loans. Plus, those loans came with no mandates over Ukraine monetary or fiscal decisions. That’s not to say there is no influence. Of course there is influence between a large creditor and a debtor nation, especially when it is Ukraine’s largest trading partner and has an extensive joint cultural history going back thousands of years. But influence is separate from mandates placing them under the control of a foreign entity. Ukraine keeps its sovereignty. In addition, the Russian trade agreement gave Ukraine completely open trade access for all goods and services with Russia, Belarus and Kazakhstan. Russia is solidly Ukraine’s largest trading partner. In addition, Ukraine would also receive subsidized prices to Russian natural gas at nearly half the price on the world market. Lastly the Russian agreement had no provision preventing Ukraine from entering any free trade agreements with any other nations.

All in all, the decision was not even a close choice by any margin. It was a no brainer. And sure enough the democratically elected government of Ukraine chose the Russian deal and rejected the E.U. deal. And rationally they should have rejected the E.U. deal even if there was no Russian proposal on the table at all. Nevertheless the U.S. could not fathom that a foreign sovereign government would not do as it says. The U.S. neocon foreign policy is all about force – bribe them or regime change or bomb them. Don’t do as we say and it’s time for “regime change.”

And who was the coalition Washington put together with its NGOs like the NED for this Maidan revolution? (By the way NGO or Non-governmental organization is a misnomer because they are funded by the government) Why it was a coalition of a couple fascist parties with a couple openly NAZI parties – Svoboda and Right Sector. This is utter madness.

And aside from the fact it is a sovereign nation in which the US should not be meddling in its internal affairs and politics at all, the US has absolutely no significant interest in Ukraine at all. Ukraine borders Russia, not USA. In fact it’s not even in the same continent as the USA. It’s not even in the same hemisphere.

By contrast it does border Russia. Russia is its largest trading partner. It has a long cultural history with Russia going back millennia, before USA even existed or even before Columbus ever set sail. In fact Ukraine is the birthplace of Russia. Kiev was the original capital of Rus. It wasn’t until Kiev got sacked by the Mongols that the capital was transferred to Muscovy.

Imagine if Russia poured $5 billion into overthrowing the government of Canada or Mexico on USA’’s border. And they used a coalition of Nazi parties to do so. Then they tried to install their own puppet government. Do you think the US might not sit idly by and let it happen? Of course not.

Now imagine it is not only Canada or Mexico, but imagine a country with close cultural history such as England actually bordered the USA, and Russia fostered a coup in England and overthrew their government and installed their puppets. Would you expect USA to sit by and do nothing?

By contrast, Russia has shown extreme restraint compared to what the US would have done. The US would already have invaded.

And the western spin on everything is ridiculous. The US Department of State is now the US Department of State Propaganda. It runs circles around anything the old Soviet Union could ever have imagined with Pravda, and US media are not journalists, but act like spokespersons for Obama’s Department of State Propaganda. One has to turn to alternative or foreign media to find any sense of balance to accurately investigate issues these days.

I couldn't agree more. Well stated.

[P3ter_Griffin]

In that interview (August 1st) he said Russia would not go into Ukraine on his watch. "Write it down!" After it was pointed out Russia was already in the Ukraine he said that was Obama's fault. But he has also suggested easing sanctions on Russia which were imposed for going into the Ukraine. http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/31/politics/donald-trump-russia-ukraine-crimea-putin/


But it looks like perhaps he is starting to listen to his generals. During confirmation hearings, Secretary of Defense Mattis and Secretary of State nominee Tillerson warned about Russia.


Mattis: http://www.militarytimes.com/articles/mattis-confirmation-hearing-sasc-trump


Tillerson: http://www.defensenews.com/articles/trumps-secretary-of-state-nominee-talks-tough-on-russia


And more specifically to the topic of this thread- Crimea:


Trying to find it but there have been previous statements about the US wanting Crimea returned to the Ukraine- can't remember if it was Trump, an official statement, or one of his cabinet nominees but they have said that before.


Thanks for posting, zip. My minor disagreements with what you say is:


But he has also suggested easing sanctions on Russia which were imposed for going into the Ukraine.

what he said is : 'I'm going to take a look at' [recognizing Crimea as Russian territory]

He has also said things like 'I'm not opposed to eliminating sanctions on Russia'. He lived on making statements that had no meaning. These statements were then the ones used by 'alt-media' to portray Trump as different and by the mainstream media to paint him as being 'worryingly' friendly with Russia.

and


But it looks like perhaps he is starting to listen to his generals.

Trump's undertones are very aligned with what his generals are saying. Things like, 'Crimea has been taken' is a recognition that Trump does not believe that Russia has a legal claim to Crimea. The generals response to what he would have done in the event of Crimea under his watch has the same meaning as Trump's 'He's not going to go into Ukraine, all right?'.

The campaign and whoever is behind it had a deep understanding of psychology, imo. And of the Ron Paul voting populace.

[charrob]

>>> Trump expects Russia to 'return Crimea' -- White House

Yep, here's a link to today's White House Press Briefing where Sean Spicer says exactly this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9C4LrbBgL4I&t=6m33s

[enhanced_deficit]

In realted news, Putin expects US to return Iraq, Libya, Syria, Palestine, Abu Ghraib etc.

[timosman]

In realted news, Putin expects US to return Iraq, Libya, Syria, Palestine, Abu Ghraib etc.

Let's not forget Alaska. :cool:

[KrokHead]

Russia is not the "good guy", and Putin is always up to no good. But I know two things:

1. War with Russia will be a massive waste of human life and money
2. Russia made no impact with our elections, as the "evidence" amounts to nothing if you research it.

[nikcers]

Just think this through here Donald. You don't have to prove yourself to be tougher than Obama just because your party thinks he was weak.

831846101179314177

[Rothbardian Girl]

Putin stole that land?
Crimea had a referendum kid. And the results is not what MSM and Deep state were expecting.
Yeah, because Stalin did a good job exterminating all the native inhabitants.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deportation_of_the_Crimean_Tatars

[silverhandorder]

I am still holding out hope for big deal and us pulling back from a lot of places.

[MelissaCato]

Why can't we just bring ALL our Military home ?

[undergroundrr]

Why can't we just bring ALL our Military home ?

This is old fogie Ron Paul thinking. It's way out of the trump-era Overton Window.

[juleswin]

Why can't we just bring ALL our Military home ?

That would be bad for jobs.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gk0TqIbPNbY

[goldenequity]

RT
‘Our land’: Russia tells US that Crimea won’t be ‘given back’ to Ukraine (https://www.rt.com/news/377387-russia-crimea-ukraine-trump/)

https://cdn.rt.com/files/2017.02/original/58a4144ec46188cd348b45a2.jpg

Russia won’t give Crimea back to Ukraine, Russian Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Maria Zakharova
said in response to White House comments that Donald Trump expects Moscow to “return” the peninsular.

“We don’t return our territories. Crimea is a territory of the Russian Federation,”

Crimea became part of the Russian Empire back in the 18th century,
but was reassigned to the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic in 1954
by the Soviet Union’s ruling presidium.
Following the 2014 coup in Kiev,
Crimeans overwhelmingly voted in a referendum to rejoin Russia.

The majority of those living in Crimea today are ethnic Russians –
almost 1,200,000 or around 58.3 percent of the population,
according to the last national census conducted back in 2001.

Some 24 percent are Ukrainians (around 500,000)
and 12 percent are Crimean Tatars.

READ MORE: Facts you need to know about Crimea and why it is in turmoil (https://www.rt.com/news/crimea-facts-protests-politics-945/)

[nikcers]

That would be bad for jobs.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gk0TqIbPNbY

Yeah but they also tend to end the interview when he says this kind of stuff..

https://youtu.be/txnaVtFdvPg?t=4m38s

[juleswin]

Thanks for posting, zip. My minor disagreements with what you say is:



what he said is : 'I'm going to take a look at' [recognizing Crimea as Russian territory]

He has also said things like 'I'm not opposed to eliminating sanctions on Russia'. He lived on making statements that had no meaning. These statements were then the ones used by 'alt-media' to portray Trump as different and by the mainstream media to paint him as being 'worryingly' friendly with Russia.

and



Trump's undertones are very aligned with what his generals are saying. Things like, 'Crimea has been taken' is a recognition that Trump does not believe that Russia has a legal claim to Crimea. The generals response to what he would have done in the event of Crimea under his watch has the same meaning as Trump's 'He's not going to go into Ukraine, all right?'.

The campaign and whoever is behind it had a deep understanding of psychology, imo. And of the Ron Paul voting populace.

This is where the old me would have inserted "Thread winner" but it annoys the hell out of me when I now see it :)

But yea, this post is spot on. Trump realized at an early state that many people did not want confrontation with Russia and that is why he tailored his message to be Russia friendly. But when you examined what he said closely, you can see that he isn't actually Russia friendly. Take for example the DNC hacking, while Russia was busy trying to deny the story that they were the ones who hacked the emails, Trump was on the campaign trail saying "I wish they would also hack Hillary's email". I mean WTF? why make a statement implying that the country you are supposedly friendly with hacked into the DNC emails?

I am yet to hear Trump say that he would remove the sanctions on Russia, he talks like he may remove it, but until he actually removes the economic sanction for taking Crimea territory back, I would believe that they were all campaign trail lies. Which is a staple for all politicians, even virgin ones :)

[goldenequity]

TASS
State Duma speaker calls to end all talks on #Crimea’s alienation from Russia (http://tass.com/politics/930957)

https://phototass2.cdnvideo.ru/width/744_b12f2926/tass/m2/en/uploads/i/20170215/1161475.jpg


TASS
Russian lawmaker calls @realDonaldTrump's statements on #Crimea alarming (http://tass.com/politics/930939)
The lawmaker stressed that "there is still a chance that Russian-US relations will improve."

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/840/283/350.png








CNN: The head of US Special Operations Command says the US government is in "unbelievable turmoil" (http://www.cnn.com/2017/02/14/politics/us-special-ops-government-turmoil/index.html?sr=twCNN021517us-special-ops-government-turmoil1059AMVODtopLink&linkId=34518270)


**fake news provocateurs giggling uncontrollably**

"We are now fully in Benedict Arnold territory."

New York Times claimed in its article on Wednesday that members of Trump’s presidential campaign had had contacts with Russian intelligence officials.

Malcolm Nance
Trump staffers caught by NSA/CIA in comms w/Russian Intelligence services during election. We are now fully in Benedict Arnold territory.







TASS
►Moscow rejects media reports on Trump close circle’s ties with Russian intelligence (http://tass.com/politics/930967)

[goldenequity]

Trump: 'Russian Connection Nonsense' Attempt to Hide Clinton Campaign Mistakes (https://sputniknews.com/us/201702151050705023-trump-russian-connection-clinton/)

https://cdn2.img.sputniknews.com/images/105004/41/1050044178.jpg

Late on Monday, Trump’s National Security Adviser Michael Flynn resigned after he was repeatedly accused of having discussed sanctions with Russian Ambassador to the United States Sergei Kislyak in December and hiding the details. He admitted he had given the White House incomplete information on Russian phone calls, despite Trump’s team previously denying the fact.

On Tuesday, The New York Times reported, pointing at phone records and intercepted calls, that members of Trump’s presidential campaign and several associates allegedly contacted Russian intelligence services and members of the government prior to the elections.

The US leader also alleged that the US intelligence community was giving out information to the country's media outlets illegally, questioning the involvement of the National Security Agency (NSA) and Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) in this.

Donald J. Trump Verified account ‏@realDonaldTrump
This Russian connection non-sense is merely an attempt to cover-up the many mistakes made in Hillary Clinton's losing campaign.
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/831837514226921472?ref_src=twsrc^tfw

Donald J. Trump ‏@realDonaldTrump 5h5 hours ago
The real scandal here is that classified information is illegally given out by "intelligence" like candy. Very un-American!

Donald Trump has repeatedly refuted reports about having any relations with Russia.

He has been calling for a political dialogue with Moscow, particularly in regards to the fight against terrorism, and expressed readiness to build positive relations with Russia. Moscow has long been promoting the idea of fruitful cooperation with Washington.

After the leaders' phone talks on January 28, the Kremlin and Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said the presidents had noted the importance of respect in relations.

In early November, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said that Moscow did not have official contacts with the Republican nominee Trump's team during the presidential campaign.

[AZJoe]

This combined with Trump letting Flynn go - Does it mean the NSA/CIA total surveillance apparatus has finally gotten to Trump?

[CPUd]

Trump loves the CIA, he is behind them 1000%. It is the fake news who are saying Trump is at war with the CIA


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkKxO2WWIwE

[anaconda]

Trump loves the CIA, he is behind them 1000%. It is the fake news who are saying Trump is at war with the CIA


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkKxO2WWIwE

I suggest the possibility that Trump's speech at the CIA was an infowar battle.

[CPUd]

I suggest the possibility that Trump's speech at the CIA was an infowar battle.

Maybe. He did bring his own claque into a captive audience.

[nikcers]

We will find out if gas starts tanking in price. My guess is the deep state has been pushing this pro Russian narrative because of his anti Russian monetary and foreign policy. I think that the only reason why the Russians played along is because they wanted to make Trump supporters like Russians/Putin, and the MSM / deep state has totally flipped every Trump supporter on this already.

[anaconda]

We will find out if gas starts tanking in price. My guess is the deep state has been pushing this pro Russian narrative because of his anti Russian monetary and foreign policy. I think that the only reason why the Russians played along is because they wanted to make Trump supporters like Russians/Putin, and the MSM / deep state has totally flipped every Trump supporter on this already.

Are you saying that Trump supporters have turned from good feelings about Putin to acrimonious feelings?

[juleswin]

We will find out if gas starts tanking in price. My guess is the deep state has been pushing this pro Russian narrative because of his anti Russian monetary and foreign policy. I think that the only reason why the Russians played along is because they wanted to make Trump supporters like Russians/Putin, and the MSM / deep state has totally flipped every Trump supporter on this already.

Mind blown, what are the chances that the deep state and Trump were working together all along fooling such stalwart libertarians like Tom Woods and Stefan Molyneux into thinking he wasn't just Clinton with a horrible hair piece?

[nikcers]

Mind blown, what are the chances that the deep state and Trump were working together all along fooling such stalwart libertarians like Tom Woods and Stefan Molyneux into thinking he wasn't just Clinton with a horrible hair piece? I think that some libertarians like probably legitimately thought he was the lesser of two evils, and some of them thought they could use Trump as a useful idiot, and some of them are Israel first, and some are just bought. From our government's perspective though its much easier to keep us quiet by fooling us.

If you can fool enough of us into thinking that Trump is libertarian light, then we won't oppose them. If you can convince enough of us that you are going to destroy our enemy and lock them up and put them in jail we won't opposte you. I thought it was a scam as soon as they announced they didn't want any campaign contributions. If something is free then you are the product.

I worked on Ron Paul's campaign enough to recognize that money makes campaigns get recognition. There was no accurate political poll but if you could get tons of donations from a lot of different people then you can legitimately show that your campaign has wheels. Then when they tried to compare him to Ron Paul on the MSM and then didn't give him the Ron Paul treatment, that was another red flag.

[pcosmar]

Seems the guy talks out of multiple orifices.

Hard to tell what shit he says and what he says is shit