Trump to go after H1B visa abuse next. [Archive] - Ron Paul Forums / Liberty Forest

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specsaregood

01-30-2017, 10:12 PM

heh, about time. if you thought the tech companies were wailing already, just wait until their steady flow of indentured servants gets slowed.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-01-30/trump-s-next-move-on-immigration-to-hit-closer-to-home-for-tech

President Donald Trump’s clash with Silicon Valley over immigration is about to become even more contentious.

After the new president banned refugees and travelers from seven predominantly Muslim countries, Google, Facebook, Salesforce, Microsoft and others railed against the move, saying it violated the country’s principles and risked disrupting its engine of innovation. Trump’s next steps could strike even closer to home: His administration has drafted an executive order aimed at overhauling the work-visa programs technology companies depend on to hire tens of thousands of employees each year.

If implemented, the reforms could shift the way American companies like Microsoft Corp., Amazon.com Inc. and Apple Inc. recruit talent and force wholesale changes at Indian companies such as Infosys Ltd. and Wipro Ltd. Businesses would have to try to hire American first and if they recruit foreign workers, priority would be given to the most highly paid.

“Our country’s immigration policies should be designed and implemented to serve, first and foremost, the U.S. national interest,” the draft proposal reads, according to a copy reviewed by Bloomberg. “Visa programs for foreign workers … should be administered in a manner that protects the civil rights of American workers and current lawful residents, and that prioritizes the protection of American workers -- our forgotten working people -- and the jobs they hold.”

more at link...

newbitech

01-30-2017, 10:46 PM

PatriotOne

01-30-2017, 10:53 PM

Does this mean I might actually someday talk to an American if I called tech support? :eek:

kahless

01-30-2017, 11:45 PM

Good to see another campaign promise being honored. Not only does it look like he is following through he is not being weasley about it or doubling down against Americans like other Republicans. This helps move the national dialogue in the right direction instead of the out right ass kissing talk to appeal to the Silicon Valley Oligarchs for campaign financing we usually hear.

CaptainAmerica

01-31-2017, 12:41 AM

freejack

01-31-2017, 03:29 AM

Does this mean I might actually someday talk to an American if I called tech support? :eek:

Less likely. Companies don't sponsor call center staff for H1B visas. The unintended consequence of reducing visa applicants is an increase in cost due to higher salaries being paid to domestic employees. Companies will need to move easy-to-train jobs like customer service offshore to offset the cost.

TheCount

01-31-2017, 03:56 AM

Does this mean I might actually someday talk to an American if I called tech support? :eek:No, it will make it less likely.

Those call centers are not in the United States because of the prohibitive cost of having them here. Making it even more expensive will not somehow magically change that math. :rolleyes:

newbitech

01-31-2017, 07:18 AM

call center / help desk are the perfect environment to begin training employees for higher skilled positions.

I think if there truly is a shortage companies will want a pipeline of local home grown talent. The biggest problem that H1B's have caused besides offshoring the high skilled positions is that it chokes off the entire tech pathway.

If there truly is a reform of H1B's and companies have to rely on homegrown talent more, it would make sense for companies to invest in training from the ground up and help US workers get educated. Those elementary tech skills one gains while doing phone support quickly translate into higher level of skill in the right environment.

Right now, foreigners reaps those rewards. The whole way that high tech companies think about education also needs to change. Education and high tech have never really made institutional gains. That could change if foreign out sourcing of that pipeline dries up.

Schifference

01-31-2017, 07:33 AM

Realistically who want's to deal with a call center? On hold for lengthy periods only to have to navigate a robotic system that heaven forbid you choose the wrong selection, none at all, or for some phantom reason get disconnected. If you can finally speak with a live person, they often times are robot like and have very limited authority or say things that are not delivered upon.

When I have an issue I prefer to send an email which I can easily save and then there is no misunderstanding of what the company told me or what I told them. In just a couple of minutes I can relay my issue in a note and click send. That is much better and faster for me than calling and not getting results.

I would imagine that one day there will be robots reading email's and answering our concerns instead of humans. If you don't like the response the robot gives you, you simply click a link and escalate your concern.

specsaregood

01-31-2017, 07:50 AM

specsaregood

03-09-2017, 05:43 PM

Brian4Liberty

03-09-2017, 09:05 PM

screw Obamacare, can trump get busy with sending the hordes of worthless fuckstick H1-b visa morons back where they came from? my week has been wasted dealing with these people with more letters in their PHD than braincells they have to rub together.

LOL. Didn't you know, they are the best and brightest. They do the work that Americans are too stupid to do.

oyarde

03-09-2017, 10:12 PM

I remain unconvinced that these visas are needed.

timosman

03-10-2017, 01:57 AM

I remain unconvinced that these visas are needed.

Confirmed. Why Can't Programmers.. Program? https://blog.codinghorror.com/why-cant-programmers-program/

AZJoe

03-10-2017, 07:00 AM

Does this mean I might actually someday talk to an American if I called tech support? :eek:

No. The H1B is for highly educated, highly skilled and talented in specialized occupations generally engineering, chemists, physicists, biotechnology. The minimum salary to qualify for an H1B visa is $60k, but generally they are well in the six figures and up.
These are the best, and brightest, and most talented, and most creative that the world has to offer. Of all the immigrant categories, this is the one that should not be restricted. We should be encouraging and welcoming the most talented, innovative and intelligent that the world has to offer, not restricting them.

specsaregood

03-10-2017, 07:25 AM

No. The H1B is for highly educated, highly skilled and talented in specialized occupations generally engineering, chemists, physicists, biotechnology. The minimum salary to qualify for an H1B visa is $60k, but generally they are well in the six figures and up.
These are the best, and brightest, and most talented, and most creative that the world has to offer. Of all the immigrant categories, this is the one that should not be restricted. We should be encouraging and welcoming the most talented, innovative and intelligent that the world has to offer, not restricting them.

https://cdn.meme.am/cache/instances/folder554/500x/61977554.jpg

timosman

03-10-2017, 10:45 AM

We should be encouraging and welcoming the most talented, innovative and intelligent that the world has to offer, not restricting them.

Are we still talking about H1B?:rolleyes:

Brian4Liberty

03-10-2017, 11:53 AM

Are we still talking about H1B?:rolleyes:

Only if it's from someone not familiar with workers here on H1B...or cheap labor lobbyists.

osan

03-10-2017, 12:45 PM

timosman

03-10-2017, 12:47 PM

Yeah, because Bloomeberg is such a reliable source.

That aside, I find the use of "national interest" most unfortunate. World leaders need to hire me to teach them how to think and speak properly.

In case you have not noticed these skills are not very important on this planet.:cool:

osan

03-10-2017, 09:06 PM

In case you have not noticed these skills are not very important on this planet.:cool:

True, but the truth remains, regardless of the opinions of fools and nitwits.

Madison320

03-11-2017, 11:53 AM

slave labor contracts going bye bye????? wow. This is incredibly surprising. How many people are aware that visas are issued because corporations know they have special laws imposed on foreigners to make them basically slaves?

I have a lot of questions about this. Are H1Bs are here against their will? How do H1Bs hurt the economy? Do they hurt the businesses that hire them? The people that buy their products? I'm a programmer, this interests me.

Brian4Liberty

03-11-2017, 12:31 PM

...Do they hurt the businesses that hire them? The people that buy their products? I'm a programmer, this interests me.

Good question. Faith in businesses doing what is actually best for the business is totally overblown. Nine out of ten businesses fail. There is a reason for that.

As far as H1Bs hurting a business, I have personally witnessed the following at two different, large tech companies: An H1B is hired at a management/hiring level, and one of their first actions is to hire ~10 H1Bs to work under them. No advertised open positions, no real search for the best employees, just 10 new bodies. Were there kick-backs involved? That was never proven. There is no doubt this was not a standard hiring process. In both instance, these hired H1Bs provided little if any benefit to the business.

At one company, this type of action was common place. That large company went out of business. At the other company, this was "discovered" after ~6 months, and the manager and employees were let go. That company is still in business.

Is this good for business? It depends. There is certainly no hard and fast rule that it is good. The fact that IT is dominated by H1Bs from a specific nation is no accident. It is the result of non-market favoritism and a massive PR campaign by ignorant executives.

Madison320

03-11-2017, 12:35 PM

Good question. Faith in businesses doing what is actually best for the business is totally overblown. Nine out of ten businesses fail. There is a reason for that.

As far as H1Bs hurting a business, I have personally witnessed the following at two different, large tech companies: An H1B is hired at a management/hiring level, and one of their first actions is to hire ~10 H1Bs to work under them. No advertised open positions, no real search for the best employees, just 10 new bodies. Were there kick-backs involved? That was never proven. There is no doubt this was not a standard hiring process. In both instance, these hired H1Bs provided little if any benefit to the business.

At one company, this type of action was common place. That large company went out of business. At the other company, this was "discovered" after ~6 months, and the manager and employees were let go. That company is still in business.

Is this good for business? It depends. There is certainly no hard and fast rule that it is good. The fact that IT is dominated by H1Bs from a specific nation is no accident. It is the result of non-market favoritism and a massive PR campaign by ignorant executives.

Shouldn't we let the business decide what's best for them?

Brian4Liberty

03-11-2017, 03:30 PM

Shouldn't we let the business decide what's best for them?

Certainly they are free to make as many bad business decisions as they want until their doors close. But there are limits. If they want to dump toxic waste into the street because that's the cheapest way to do it, a lot of other people will be affected, and will have a problem with it.

timosman

03-11-2017, 03:38 PM

I have a lot of questions about this. Are H1Bs are here against their will? How do H1Bs hurt the economy? Do they hurt the businesses that hire them? The people that buy their products? I'm a programmer, this interests me.

In the presence of H1B is hard to see an actual salary increase if the corp has an option of bringing in an H1B at the current or even lower rate. Salary suppression by eliminating market forces.

Brian4Liberty

03-11-2017, 03:48 PM

Shouldn't we let the business decide what's best for them?

Your question was "Do they hurt the businesses that hire them?" I gave you an example of where it does hurt them.

nikcers

03-11-2017, 03:50 PM

Your question was "Do they hurt the businesses that hire them?" I gave you an example of where it does hurt them.

Does the government need to be involved in capitalism?

Ender

03-11-2017, 05:47 PM

Does the government need to be involved in capitalism?

NO.

Then it isn't capitalism, it's mercantilism- the reason we fought the War of Independence.

Madison320

03-11-2017, 06:01 PM

Your question was "Do they hurt the businesses that hire them?" I gave you an example of where it does hurt them.

I'm not seeing any rights violations here. And I don't see how it harms the economy in general. This is the classic broken window fallacy. Yes, it's bad for the US programmer who loses his job, but it's good for the business and good for the consumer. Many businesses would go bankrupt if they couldn't hire H1B workers. Or illegal workers for that matter. At least this preserves some US jobs.

Are you in favor of banning H1B visas?

Madison320

03-11-2017, 06:03 PM

In the presence of H1B is hard to see an actual salary increase if the corp has an option of bringing in an H1B at the current or even lower rate. Salary suppression by eliminating market forces.

Who's rights are being violated by H1Bs?

Brian4Liberty

03-11-2017, 06:40 PM

I'm not seeing any rights violations here. And I don't see how it harms the economy in general. This is the classic broken window fallacy. Yes, it's bad for the US programmer who loses his job, but it's good for the business and good for the consumer. Many businesses would go bankrupt if they couldn't hire H1B workers. Or illegal workers for that matter. At least this preserves some US jobs.

Are you in favor of banning H1B visas?

You are changing the subject again. You asked, and I gave an example of how hiring H1Bs had hurt some businesses. It has nothing to do with "rights" violations. As far as hurting the economy in general, I'd say that when a large company goes bankrupt due to poor management, it does effect a wider portion of the economy. Perhaps only locally, but it does have a ripple effect when that many people lose jobs all at once.

timosman

03-11-2017, 06:41 PM

Who's rights are being violated by H1Bs?

Nobody's. Why are you asking?:rolleyes:

charrob

03-11-2017, 06:56 PM

I'm with Specsrgood on this one. Just another open borders/globalization argument. The middle class has been destroyed in this country because of globalization and endless immigration. I've read for several decades how American programmers are being screwed by these H1b's: people in their late 50's / early 60's who worked hard for a company their whole lives and, as a result, their salaries increased and benefits increased. Then, before retirement, the companies fire them and the only way they can at least even get a month or so of severance pay is if they completely train the foreigners who will be taking their jobs at half the salaries and hardly any benefits.

So older workers then lose their pensions, their jobs, and eventually their homes.

The Disney programmers who all lost their jobs weren't even older I don't think, yet they all were replaced by foreigners willing to work for so much less. The endless influx of foreigners not only fires American tech workers, but for those Americans continuing to work in the field, it drives down wages.

There's almost 3 billion humans in China and India -- many of whom would work for less if they could get a U.S. programming job. In the mean time competent U.S. programmers are being fired, our middle class is shrinking, our coastlines where most of these jobs exist are overpopulated. Open borders for greedy businesses is not the answer.

Madison320

03-11-2017, 06:57 PM

You are changing the subject again. You asked, and I gave an example of how hiring H1Bs had hurt some businesses. It has nothing to do with "rights" violations. As far as hurting the economy in general, I'd say that when a large company goes bankrupt due to poor management, it does effect a wider portion of the economy. Perhaps only locally, but it does have a ripple effect when that many people lose jobs all at once.

Ok, forget about whether it may hurt some businesses. That's irrelevant to where I was going.

My point is you sound like you're against H1Bs. If there are no rights being violated why are you against it? In other words what libertarian basis is there for banning foreigners from legally working here?

Madison320

03-11-2017, 06:58 PM

Nobody's. Why are you asking?:rolleyes:

So you're in favor of H1Bs?

Madison320

03-11-2017, 07:00 PM

There's almost 3 billion humans in China and India -- many of whom would work for less if they could get a U.S. programming job. In the mean time competent U.S. programmers are being fired, our middle class is shrinking, our coastlines where most of these jobs exist are overpopulated. Open borders for greedy businesses is not the answer.

Greedy businesses? Is this still a Ron Paul forum? Did I take a wrong turn?

agitator

03-11-2017, 07:02 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU

charrob

03-11-2017, 07:03 PM

Greedy businesses? Is this still a Ron Paul forum? Did I take a wrong turn?

I don't agree with Ron Paul on open borders. On this issue i agree with the likes of Pat Buchanan and Trump.

timosman

03-11-2017, 07:05 PM

Greedy businesses? Is this still a Ron Paul forum? Did I take a wrong turn?

Did you get lost again?:cool:

Madison320

03-11-2017, 07:20 PM

Did you get lost again?:cool:

???

specsaregood

03-11-2017, 07:35 PM

I don't agree with Ron Paul on open borders. On this issue i agree with the likes of Pat Buchanan and Trump.

Ron Paul is not for open borders either, except in a theoretical environment.

Madison320

03-11-2017, 07:42 PM

I don't agree with Ron Paul on open borders. On this issue i agree with the likes of Pat Buchanan and Trump.

I'm against people coming here and getting welfare and voting for socialism. But that's not the case here is it? You don't have a right to a job. It's owned by the business owner. Any Austrian economist will tell you that hiring lower cost workers is good for productivity and good for the economy. It sucks for the worker but it's good for the consumers. That's the side of the equation you're leaving out. It's the same logic as automation. Lower cost machines replace higher cost labor. Yes it sucks temporarily for the worker until he finds a new job, but he didn't have a right to it.

nikcers

03-11-2017, 08:07 PM

I think that most people invest in their communities, its government policy that has caused so much money to go abroad, its their way of insuring financial MAD. It's why Mexico hates their life right now and can't do dick all about it.

jmdrake

03-11-2017, 08:18 PM

LOL. Didn't you know, they are the best and brightest. They do the work that Americans are too stupid to do.

When I was in college most of the chemistry and physics lab instructors were foreigners typically from China. Nice but you couldn't understand a word they said. When I went to graduate school in computer science most were foreigners from China, India and Pakistan. This was at the University of Alabama at Birmingham. If most of the people getting advanced degrees in these fields are foreigners.......?

nikcers

03-11-2017, 08:18 PM

Ron Paul is not for open borders either, except in a theoretical environment.
Liberty?

timosman

03-11-2017, 08:22 PM

If most of the people getting advanced degrees in these fields are foreigners.......?

Americans work in sales, marketing and product management. Nobody makes anything.;)

specsaregood

03-11-2017, 08:25 PM

Liberty?

indeed, and we don't live in such a world.

charrob

03-11-2017, 08:32 PM

Any Austrian economist will tell you that hiring lower cost workers is good for productivity and good for the economy. It sucks for the worker but it's good for the consumers. That's the side of the equation you're leaving out.

The side of the equation you are leaving out is that American consumers, who used to have good paying middle class jobs, can no longer afford to buy things because they were fired by greedy businesses importing low wage foreign labor or because their wages have been driven down by the oversupply of foreign labor. Keeping it in the country keeps the supply/demand in balance. Oversupplying labor as our country has done since the 1990s if not before drives down wages and destroys the middle class.

It's the same logic as automation. Lower cost machines replace higher cost labor. Yes it sucks temporarily for the worker until he finds a new job, but he didn't have a right to it.

Automation _creates_ good new jobs for Americans: and it drives up living standards. Unfettered immigration drives down living standards in a race to the bottom. The two are completely opposite in the final effect on the living standards of Americans.

There may be some advanced fields where a small number of H1b visas would be appropriate -- where employers definitely are unable to find Americans that can do that work; but in most cases I disagree with screwing highly skilled competent Americans by hiring low-wage foreigners that are simply willing to live 5 families to an apartment and work 80 hours a week and get paid for 40.

It's really no use arguing about it. Nothing will change my mind and nothing will change yours. Please, let's just leave it at that.

nikcers

03-11-2017, 08:33 PM

Americans work in sales, marketing and product management. Nobody makes anything.;)
We have been out gunning and oiling Russia, and the cold war looms on. We're producing more oil then we have ever in 50 years.

agitator

03-11-2017, 08:42 PM

The side of the equation you are leaving out is that American consumers, who used to have good paying middle class jobs, can no longer afford to buy things because they were fired by greedy businesses importing low wage foreign labor or because their wages have been driven down by the oversupply of foreign labor. Keeping it in the country keeps the supply/demand in balance. Oversupplying labor as our country has done since the 1990s if not before drives down wages and destroys the middle class.

Automation _creates_ good new jobs for Americans: and it drives up living standards. Unfettered immigration drives down living standards in a race to the bottom. The two are completely opposite in the final effect on the living standards of Americans.

There may be some advanced fields where a small number of H1b visas would be appropriate -- where employers definitely are unable to find Americans that can do that work; but in most cases I disagree with screwing highly skilled competent Americans by hiring low-wage foreigners that are simply willing to live 5 families to an apartment and work 80 hours a week and get paid for 40.

It's really no use arguing about it. Nothing will change my mind and nothing will change yours. Please, let's just leave it at that.

Yep, Henry Ford paid his workers well for a reason.

timosman

03-11-2017, 08:47 PM

We have been out gunning and oiling Russia, and the cold war looms on. We're producing more oil then we have ever in 50 years.

Totally agree. We should send some H1Bs your way.:cool:

Madison320

03-11-2017, 08:49 PM

timosman

03-11-2017, 08:49 PM

Yep, Henry Ford paid his workers well for a reason.

The government is oversupplying labor. Is this simple enough?:confused:

charrob

03-11-2017, 09:00 PM

Keynesian 101. Using your logic we can fix the problem by making the minimum wage $100 an hour.

I disagree with a minimum wage. Without an unfettered supply of immigration, the supply/demand ratio stabilizes and a minimum wage is not needed.

Ender

03-11-2017, 09:01 PM

Keynesian 101. Using your logic we can fix the problem by making the minimum wage $100 an hour.

Yep. People have lived in The Matrix so long that it is perceived as the real world.

Fixing the system means:

Get rid of the FED
Bring back the gold standard
Take away the welfare/warfare state
Get gov out of business
Reinstate REAL Capitalism (what we have now is mercantilism)
Let businesses operate how they please and hire whom they please

This will allow everyone to flourish-

nikcers

03-11-2017, 09:02 PM

Totally agree. We should send some H1Bs your way.:cool:
H1b's are just a symptom of government subsidizing our tech industry. Tech companies pushed for the handouts for the cheap labor and because labor was hard to find in certain industries so it kept those industries in those communities. It's not your fault being a nerd wasn't cool when the tech industry needed a bunch of talent. I don't see government subsidizes going away but they might shift the money around I guess.

jmdrake

03-11-2017, 09:31 PM

Americans work in sales, marketing and product management. Nobody makes anything.;)

:rolleyes: Whatever. Take a tour of a local university science graduate school and get back with me. Fretting over H1Bs when the issue is most of people getting advanced degrees in science are not U.S. born is silly.

Madison320

03-11-2017, 10:03 PM

The government is oversupplying labor. Is this simple enough?:confused:

So when you buy a cheap avocado from Mexico, the government is oversupplying avocados?

timosman

03-11-2017, 10:09 PM

So when you buy a cheap avocado from Mexico, the government is oversupplying avocados?

By controlling the avocado quotas the government would effectively control the price of avocados on the free market.

Ender

03-11-2017, 10:14 PM

By controlling the avocado quotas the government would effectively control the price of avocados on the free market.

Not. Good.

jmdrake

03-11-2017, 10:38 PM

The government is oversupplying labor. Is this simple enough?:confused:

So....not artificially keeping out qualified people = government supplying labor? :confused:

jmdrake

03-11-2017, 10:39 PM

I disagree with a minimum wage. Without an unfettered supply of immigration, the supply/demand ratio stabilizes and a minimum wage is not needed.

And here I was thinking the problem with unfettered immigration was the welfare stated. But even without the welfare state you want a border police state?

charrob

03-11-2017, 10:56 PM

And here I was thinking the problem with unfettered immigration was the welfare stated. But even without the welfare state you want a border police state?

I don't want a border police state. But I want a state with borders and immigration kept to a minimum. I oppose the open borders/globalization model.

timosman

03-11-2017, 10:58 PM

So....not artificially keeping out qualified people = government supplying labor? :confused:

H1B quotas are the control mechanism. The amount of H1B visas is limited.

jmdrake

03-12-2017, 04:32 AM

H1B quotas are the control mechanism. The amount of H1B visas is limited.

But imposing a quota does not equal providing a supply. That you would come up with such a convoluted statement is mind boggling. Let's apply it to the real world shall we?

The government imposes restrictions on the growing of commodity crops like peanuts. Therefore if that regulation is done away with or relaxed the government is "supplying" peanuts as opposed to farmers.

The government imposes restrictions on fishing. Therefore if that regulation is relaxed the government is "supplying" fish.

The government imposes restrictions on the number of hospital beds there can be in a particular community. Therefore if that regulation is done away with or relaxed the government is "supplying" hospital beds.

Seriously, that's your position?

jmdrake

03-12-2017, 04:34 AM

I don't want a border police state. But I want a state with borders and immigration kept to a minimum. I oppose the open borders/globalization model.

And how exactly do you propose keeping out qualified people who aren't looking for welfare without the border police state that we have now?

juleswin

03-12-2017, 05:05 AM

jmdrake

03-12-2017, 05:25 AM

H-1B Specialty Occupations, DOD Cooperative Research and Development Project Workers, and Fashion Models

Who amongst you is against giving visas to fashion models? Do we need to start posting pics of models who came here with said visa?

Donald Trump certainly isn't.

http://www.nmws.us/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/link1-66-660x330.png

https://peopledotcom.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/donald_trump.jpg

AZJoe

03-12-2017, 06:50 AM

Ender

03-12-2017, 09:28 AM

Madison320

03-12-2017, 09:35 AM

By controlling the avocado quotas the government would effectively control the price of avocados on the free market.

So, using your logic, the government should restrict the supply of avocados from Mexico? To drive up the price and help the US farmers?

charrob

03-12-2017, 10:11 AM

Study Finds No Shortage of High-Tech Workers in U.S.: (http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2014/05/20/report-u-s-has-surplus-not-shortage-of-high-tech-workers/)

Despite the clamor that there is a perpetual shortage of American high-tech workers, the number of foreign workers with STEM (science, technology, engineering, and math) degrees that the United States imports annually alone exceeds the number of available STEM jobs, making it tougher for Americans to move up the economic ladder by getting good-paying jobs in those professions.

A Center for Immigration Studies (CIS) report released on Tuesday ahead of a panel on the subject at the National Press Club found that from 2007-2012, STEM employment averaged “averaged only 105,000 jobs annually” while the U.S. admitted about 129,000 immigrants with STEM degrees. That means “the number of new immigrants with STEM degrees admitted each year is by itself higher than the total growth in STEM employment.” During that time period, the number of U.S.-born STEM graduates grew by an average of 115,000 a year.

Authors Steven Camarota, CIS’s director of research, and Karen Ziegler, a CIS demographer, wrote that these numbers are “truly extraordinary” and “it should not be surprising that most STEM graduates (immigrant or native) do not have STEM jobs.”

The report, titled, Is There a STEM Worker Shortage? A look at employment and wages in science, technology, engineering, and math, is consistent with research from Georgetown University, the Economic Policy Institute (EPI), the Rand Corporation, the Urban Institute, and the National Research Council that have also found no evidence that America has a shortage of high-tech workers. And its findings concluded that America “has more than twice as many workers with STEM degrees as there are STEM jobs.” When combined with slight wage growth in the STEM fields for more than a decade, the authors concluded that “both employment and wage data indicate there is no shortage of STEM workers in the United States.”

“When formulating policy, elected representatives need to consider the actual conditions in the U.S. labor market, rather than simply responding to pressure from employers in industries that wish to hire large numbers of foreign STEM graduates,” the authors suggest. “While employers may find this situation desirable, it is difficult to argue this is the interest of American people as a whole.”

Yet, as Breitbart News has reported, the “Senate’s amnesty bill that passed last year would double and possibly triple the number of high-tech visas” and “House Judiciary Committee Chair Rep. Bob Goodlatte’s (R-VA) ‘SKILLS‘ Act that passed out of his committee would double the number of H-1B visas” to import even more foreign workers.

Using data from the American Community Survey (ACS) that the Census Bureau and the Bureau’s Current Population Survey (CPS) collect, Camarota and Zeigler found that there were 5.3 million immigrant and native-born STEM workers in 2012 compared to 12.1 million STEM degree holders among immigrants and native-born Americans. In addition, only “a third of native-born Americans with a STEM degree actually has a job in a STEM occupation” while “at least 5 million native-born Americans with STEM undergraduate degrees are working in non-STEM occupations.”

The authors note that “wage trends are one of the best measures of labor demand” and, “If STEM workers are in short supply, wages should be increasing rapidly. Predictably, though, due to the surplus of STEM workers, “wage data from multiple sources show little growth over the last 12 years,” as “real hourly wages adjusted for inflation grew on average just .7 percent a year from 2000 to 2012 for STEM workers.”

In addition, since a “majority of workers in all 48 STEM occupations in 2012 were native-born,” there is enough data to show that STEM jobs are not undesirable jobs that Americans will not do. In fact, the report found that “STEM graduates earn about 10 percent ($8,754) more in STEM occupations compared to those employed in non-STEM occupations.”

The report also found that 1.6 million people without STEM undergraduate degrees are working in a STEM field, and “the vast majority (85 percent) of those working in STEM occupations without STEM degrees are native-born.” They note that though the ACS does not note what graduate degrees people have, “the overwhelming majority of non-STEM degree holders who work in STEM jobs do not have graduate degrees.”

“This indicates that allowing in large numbers of immigrants who seek STEM employment may create competition for natives who themselves do not have STEM degrees, but who can do such work nonetheless,” the authors write.

On a conference call of scholars that Sen. Jeff Sessions’ (R-AL) office organized last Friday, Ron Hira, an H-1B expert and public policy professor at Rutgers, said that the IT sector, for instance, has traditionally been “an area of social mobility.” And Americans without STEM degrees often have become proficient in IT jobs.

“You’ve got people who come from working-class backgrounds who go into these sectors,” Hira said, as Breitbart News reported. “It’s a way of getting into the middle class and the professional class, and that’s being cut off.”

The authors also noted that when there is a shortage in a STEM field — like petroleum engineering — wages predictably have gone up. For instance, real annual wages for petroleum engineers “with only an undergraduate degree were $46,000 higher in 2012 than 2000 — 14 times the $3,300 increase for all engineers with only undergraduate degrees” and “nearly $51,00” higher between 2000 and 2012 for those with graduate degrees.

“This is a clear indication that increases in demand can drive up earnings in a STEM occupation,” the authors note.

Wages in the STEM fields, though, have remained stagnant, and the authors quote former Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan, who testified that America’s “skilled wages are higher than anywhere in the world” and, “if we open up a significant window for skilled guest workers, that would suppress the skilled-wage level and end the concentration of income.”

Egged on by the millions the Chamber of Commerce and high-tech lobbies like Facebook co-founder Mark Zuckerberg’s FWD.us have spent, Congress has ensured that STEM wages have been suppressed, according to Camarota and Ziegler. But the high-tech industry still perpetuates the myth of a high-tech workers shortage and wants even more H-1B visas.

Michael Teitelbaum, a senior research associate at Harvard Law School whose new book, Falling Behind? Boom, Bust, and the Global Race for Scientific Talent, recently observed that “such claims are now well established as conventional wisdom” and “there is almost no debate in the mainstream.”

“They echo from corporate CEO to corporate CEO, from lobbyist to lobbyist, from editorial writer to editorial writer,” he wrote. “But what if what everyone knows is wrong? What if this conventional wisdom is just the same claims ricocheting in an echo chamber?”

The evidence shows that the conventional wisdom is terribly wrong.

“No one has been able to find any evidence indicating current widespread labor market shortages or hiring difficulties in science and engineering occupations that require bachelor’s degrees or higher,” Teitelbaum concluded.

The Rand study cited by authors also found “no evidence that such shortages have existed at least since 1990, nor that they are on the horizon.”

Steve Goodman of Bright Media, whom the authors also cite, is one of the few people in the tech-industry who conceded that the numbers disprove Silicon Valley’s conventional wisdom about the shortage of high-tech workers.

“We’re Silicon Valley people, we just assumed the shortage was true,” he said, “It turns out there is a little Silicon Valley groupthink going on about this, though it’s not comfortable to say that.”

Camarota and Ziegler, the study’s authors, present the uncomfortable numbers and emphasize that “the dramatic increases in STEM immigration called for by employers and many in Congress would seem to be out of step with the absorption capacity of the STEM labor market.” They observe that “Congress is almost certainly holding down wage growth and reducing the incentive for native-born Americans to undertake the challenging course work that is often necessary for STEM careers.”

“The data indicate that the supply of STEM workers vastly exceeds the number of STEM jobs, and there has been only modest wage growth in these professions,” they conclude. “This reality should inform and shape public policy moving forward.”

timosman

03-12-2017, 10:14 AM

Ender

03-12-2017, 10:31 AM

Study Finds No Shortage of High-Tech Workers in U.S.: (http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2014/05/20/report-u-s-has-surplus-not-shortage-of-high-tech-workers/)

80% of people with degrees in any field, are NOT working in that field.

AND- a degree does not mean someone actually has the talent to do a job. A degree in the arts means NOTHING; tech even less. Degrees mean that you have sat in a seat for 4-8 years; it does not mean you're any good in that profession.

Degrees were actually invented to prove that someone who really didn't have the skills/talent could do the job. They could wave a piece of paper that said they knew what they were doing, instead of having any real experience/skill/talent.

timosman

03-12-2017, 10:40 AM

Ender

03-12-2017, 10:42 AM

Is there any meaning to this pablum?

Is there any many in your pablum? :p

Reading is your friend.

timosman

03-12-2017, 10:45 AM

Is there any many in your pablum? :p

Reading is your friend.

I take it as a NO.

charrob

03-12-2017, 11:05 AM

Ender

03-12-2017, 11:05 AM

I take it as a NO.

Using data from the American Community Survey (ACS) that the Census Bureau and the Bureau’s Current Population Survey (CPS) collect, Camarota and Zeigler found that there were 5.3 million immigrant and native-born STEM workers in 2012 compared to 12.1 million STEM degree holders among immigrants and native-born Americans. In addition, only “a third of native-born Americans with a STEM degree actually has a job in a STEM occupation” while “at least 5 million native-born Americans with STEM undergraduate degrees are working in non-STEM occupations.”

Study Finds No Shortage of High-Tech Workers in U.S.

Ender

03-12-2017, 11:09 AM

Yes, and foreigners who get STEM degrees are taking away jobs from American tech workers who can competently do the job despite not having the STEM degree. From the article i posted above:

The education/work system is messed up; most people do not find a job in their degree. You almost have to have a degree nowadays to work at McDonalds.

Gov should be out of the education system and out of the business system. Period.

Madison320

03-12-2017, 11:25 AM

Question for charrob and timosman: Are you in favor of protectionism for goods also? Or just services?

Brian4Liberty

03-12-2017, 11:48 AM

specsaregood

03-12-2017, 11:54 AM

Sounds good on paper, almost like a lobbyist paper. Those of us familiar with the dirty details know that isn't how it always works.

I recall a guy I had to work with that had a Masters degree in "Webmastery". I laughed pretty good at that.

timosman

03-12-2017, 12:05 PM

Sounds good on paper, almost like a lobbyist paper. Those of us familiar with the dirty details know that isn't how it always works.

Almost every statement is BS. Let's see the most interesting ones.

Together their populations are 1.4 billion. From such a large population to draw upon you will inevitably find exceptionally talented individuals.

H1B program is racist. Africa is 1.2 billion and is definitely underrepresented in the program.

H1B visa engineers earn $5,000 more than their American born engineer counterparts.

Isn't this discriminatory?:cool:

Additionally, the employer must spend an additional $10,000+ per visa holder for legal fees and costs.

Lawyers are in on this scam too? :eek:

timosman

03-12-2017, 12:05 PM

I recall a guy I had to work with that had a Masters degree in "Webmastery". I laughed pretty good at that.

We have UX designers now.

AZJoe

03-12-2017, 12:16 PM

Study Finds No Shortage of High-Tech Workers in U.S.: (http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2014/05/20/report-u-s-has-surplus-not-shortage-of-high-tech-workers/)

The title is inaccurate. Its conclusions are flawed. What the study found was that there was no shortage of STEM Bachelor's degrees (science, technology, engineering, math), which is not synonymous with high level technology workers.
For one, the study did not address higher level Master's or Ph.D STEM degrees.
Additionally, just as all Bachelor's degrees are not alike, neither are all STEM bachelor's degrees. For instance wildlife ecology, forest management, archaeology, anthropology, etc., are all degrees that are include in the STEM Bachelor's degrees. However they have very little demand in the marketplace outside of perhaps academia, teaching or government.

Brian4Liberty

03-12-2017, 12:33 PM

The title is inaccurate. Its conclusions are flawed. What the study found was that there was no shortage of STEM Bachelor's degrees (science, technology, engineering, math), which is not synonymous with high level technology workers.
For one, the study did not address higher level Master's or Ph.D STEM degrees.
Additionally, just as all Bachelor's degrees are not alike, neither are all STEM bachelor's degrees. For instance wildlife ecology, forest management, archaeology, anthropology, etc., are all degrees that are include in the STEM Bachelor's degrees. However they have very little demand in the marketplace outside of perhaps academia, teaching or government.

You are an advocate for H1B. Where do you get your information?

oyarde

03-12-2017, 12:39 PM

I recall a guy I had to work with that had a Masters degree in "Webmastery". I laughed pretty good at that.

That means he should know all the good porn sites ?

timosman

03-12-2017, 12:39 PM

You are an advocate for H1B. Where do you get your information?

From my neckbeard buddies.:cool:

specsaregood

03-12-2017, 12:55 PM

You are an advocate for H1B. Where do you get your information?

I remember when I worked for a mortgage bank and the IT floor was about 50% americans, 50% H1-B visa holders. They were having a big round of layoffs and I found out that every single person being laid off was an American, no visa holders. I asked my boss why, he said because if the H1-b visa holders were laid off, they would have to return home and that was unfair AND the company would have to pay for the plane tickets for them and their families... It wasn't because they were better or indispensable. That company folded after the mortgage bust. good riddance, but I imagine that attitude has only gotten worse in corp America.

fwiw: I was not laid off because I was indispensable, but I saw the way the wind was blowing and quit a few weeks later.

Brian4Liberty

03-12-2017, 01:07 PM

I remember when I worked for a mortgage bank and the IT floor was about 50% americans, 50% H1-B visa holders. They were having a big round of layoffs and I found out that every single person being laid off was an American, no visa holders. I asked my boss why, he said because if the H1-b visa holders were laid off, they would have to return home and that was unfair AND the company would have to pay for the plane tickets for them and their families... It wasn't because they were better or indispensable. That company folded after the mortgage bust. good riddance, but I imagine that attitude has only gotten worse in corp America.

fwiw: I was not laid off because I was indispensable, but I saw the way the wind was blowing and quit a few weeks later.

Yeah, those of us with real world experience have examples that contradict pretty much every claim made by the H1B lobby.

It doesn't matter. People believe what they want to believe, and no amount of explaining will change anyone's mind until they experience things first hand. And then you have those with vested interests in the system.

Madison320

03-12-2017, 01:15 PM

Yeah, those of us with real world experience have examples that contradict pretty much every claim made by the H1B lobby.

It doesn't matter. People believe what they want to believe, and no amount of explaining will change anyone's mind until they experience things first hand. And then you have those with vested interests in the system.

Are you in favor of protectionism for goods also? Or just services?

Suppose H1Bs were eliminated. Would you be in favor of criminal penalties for businesses that hire foreign workers under the table?

jmdrake

03-12-2017, 01:24 PM

58% of H1B visa holders have a masters degree or higher. 100% hold at least a Bachelor's degree or its equivalent.
Contrary to the argument that tech companies are seeking cheap labor, H1B costs employers more. H1B visa engineers earn $5,000 more than their American born engineer counterparts. Additionally, the employer must spend an additional $10,000+ per visa holder for legal fees and costs. Additionally they pay all or a portion of travel and housing relocation to obtain the talent. They pay the added costs because that is what the individual's specialized knowledge, skill, experience commands. That is what the market will bear for the specialized talent. It is also no secret that the bulk of the H1Bs go to individuals form China and India - both very large countries with great science and engineering programs and focus. Together their populations are 1.4 billion. From such a large population to draw upon you will inevitably find exceptionally talented individuals. The H1B visa allows the US to compete for the very top .001% the rest of the world has to offer, and the capped restricted availability of H1Bs means any US company must use the H1B very selectively, which is what we find.

^This.

Sounds good on paper, almost like a lobbyist paper. Those of us familiar with the dirty details know that isn't how it always works.

I just explained to everyone the "dirty details" based on my own "personal experience." Again, as an undergraduate the overwhelming majority of lab instructor for physics and chemistry were foreign born Asians! Serious, race (black and white) no longer mattered. Everyone wanted to get a native English speaking lab instructor. The reason the lab instructors were foreign born Asian is that most of the graduate students were foreign born Asian. I had one white lab instructor in physics out of three physics courses and one black chemistry instructor. (He graduated from the same HBCU that I attended before transferring to UAB.) When I went to graduate school for computer science the overwhelming majority of graduate students were foreign born Asian and East Indian/Pakistani. Whites and blacks were tiny minorities by comparison. This was in Birmingham Alabama which isn't exactly an international city. Now for a lot of jobs a graduate degree doesn't matter. You don't need a graduate degree to build a website. But to build the next generation of Alexa? Yeah, that's pretty high brow comp sci. Why aren't there more native born U.S. going into advanced degrees in physics, chemistry, comp sci and math? Probably because people smart enough to do that are more likely to go into medicine or law. I'm guessing though.

LibForestPaul

03-12-2017, 01:24 PM

So, using your logic, the government should restrict the supply of avocados from Mexico? To drive up the price and help the US farmers?

Blah, blah, blah/ As long as the man points a gun at my head, cops get guaranteed public pensions, Haliburton gets no bid contracts, the state stops licensing interior decorating, H1Bs stay home. When all the other bullshit is fixed, then we can talk "freedom".

jmdrake

03-12-2017, 01:25 PM

Yeah, those of us with real world experience have examples that contradict pretty much every claim made by the H1B lobby.

It doesn't matter. People believe what they want to believe, and no amount of explaining will change anyone's mind until they experience things first hand. And then you have those with vested interests in the system.

And what about those of us with real world experience that contradicts the claims you are making? Our experience doesn't count?

specsaregood

03-12-2017, 01:30 PM

And what about those of us with real world experience that contradicts the claims you are making? Our experience doesn't count?

No it doesn't. There, feel better now?

Madison320

03-12-2017, 01:33 PM

Blah, blah, blah/ As long as the man points a gun at my head, cops get guaranteed public pensions, Haliburton gets no bid contracts, the state stops licensing interior decorating, H1Bs stay home. When all the other bull$#@! is fixed, then we can talk "freedom".

Why bother posting at all in a libertarian forum? That could be the answer for every possible argument.

"Should we legalize drugs?" "Not as long as the man points a gun at my head".

"Should we go to a flat tax?" "Not as long as the man points a gun at my head".

timosman

03-12-2017, 01:48 PM

Why bother posting at all in a libertarian forum? That could be the answer for every possible argument.

"Should we legalize drugs?" "Not as long as the man points a gun at my head".

"Should we go to a flat tax?" "Not as long as the man points a gun at my head".

You still do not get it. :cool:

jmdrake

03-12-2017, 02:12 PM

No it doesn't. There, feel better now?

LOL

Brian4Liberty

03-12-2017, 03:37 PM

And what about those of us with real world experience that contradicts the claims you are making? Our experience doesn't count?

You'll have to be more specific. I wasn't aware that you and I had a contradiction.

jmdrake

03-12-2017, 04:07 PM

You'll have to be more specific. I wasn't aware that you and I had a contradiction.

Sure. My experience is that native born Americans are a tiny minority of graduate students in certain fields. That suggests that H1B visas might really be needed.

Brian4Liberty

03-12-2017, 05:48 PM

Sure. My experience is that native born Americans are a tiny minority of graduate students in certain fields. That suggests that H1B visas might really be needed.

It is probably true that native born Americans are a tiny minority in many graduate programs. I won't disagree with that. But that fact does not mean that H1B visas are necessary.

Why would there be more of a specific groups in graduate programs? Several reasons:

- Graduate programs have never been as popular or required in the US
- Graduate programs are more popular in nations where education is valued and competition is fierce.
- Going to a US University is a foot in the US door for a foreign student. Thus, they have extra incentive.
- Native born Americans assume that those fields will be dominated by specific foreign groups, thus they have a disincentive to go into those specific fields.

As far as demand for H1Bs, most jobs that are taken by H1Bs do not require a graduate degree, but it has become a convenient excuse for preferential hiring of H1Bs or other visa holders over US citizens with a sufficient degree or experience.

I will add that foreign born professors are not usual. It has been part of public University policy and culture for quite a while. I had professors from Taiwan, Egypt, Mexico, Israel, Russia and probably others I can't remember.

jmdrake

03-12-2017, 07:29 PM

It is probably true that native born Americans are a tiny minority in many graduate programs. I won't disagree with that. But that fact does not mean that H1B visas are necessary.

I said it suggests it. And I gave a specific example. Have you ever tried to build a speech recognition program from scratch? I don't mean making a call to a Google API. I mean actually building the dog gone thing, collecting the training data, building the epochs etc. I have made the attempt. In fact I wasn't even trying to build from scratch so much as I was trying to make a build of the Carnegie Mellon CMU Sphinx library. I gave up after multiple attempts. Some of the stuff Microsoft, Google and others are hiring people for is cutting edge high tech that your average BS in comp sci simply isn't ready to handle. Sure there are H1B visas used for lesser stuff. After all apparently super models come under H1B. So you have your example where H1B may be being abused (not sure if I agree but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt) and I have a counter example. Fine.

Why would there be more of a specific groups in graduate programs? Several reasons:

- Graduate programs have never been as popular or required in the US
- Graduate programs are more popular in nations where education is valued and competition is fierce.
- Going to a US University is a foot in the US door for a foreign student. Thus, they have extra incentive.
- Native born Americans assume that those fields will be dominated by specific foreign groups, thus they have a disincentive to go into those specific fields.

Ummmmm.....so? It's doesn't matter whether or not there is a reason for the phenomenon only that it exists. If you are looking for a chemistry phd and most of the are foreign born, that's your pool to pick from.

As far as demand for H1Bs, most jobs that are taken by H1Bs do not require a graduate degree, but it has become a convenient excuse for preferential hiring of H1Bs or other visa holders over US citizens with a sufficient degree or experience.

Here is the other counter fact that I have for you. When I left graduate school I worked for a computer consulting firm here in Nashville. I only met one foreign born programmer out of the 100 I worked for. So....from my experience most of the tech jobs are not going to H1B visa holders. And the one that I met, east Indian, demanded as high of a salary as anybody else. Seriously he was a playboy driving a sports car and spending his money on pretty women. Having a suppressed salary was not at all acceptable to him. Again, not taking away from your experiences. They just don't happen to be mine.

I will add that foreign born professors are not usual. It has been part of public University policy and culture for quite a while. I had professors from Taiwan, Egypt, Mexico, Israel, Russia and probably others I can't remember.

Of course not. Students would complain and enrollment would drop. Like I said nobody wanted to be in a foreign born physics, chemistry or comp sci graduate student's lab because, as smart as they were and as nice as most of them were, you just couldn't understand a freaking word they said. You can get away with that in a lab. You can't get away with that in a lecture class.

juleswin

03-13-2017, 09:11 AM

I remember when I worked for a mortgage bank and the IT floor was about 50% americans, 50% H1-B visa holders. They were having a big round of layoffs and I found out that every single person being laid off was an American, no visa holders. I asked my boss why, he said because if the H1-b visa holders were laid off, they would have to return home and that was unfair AND the company would have to pay for the plane tickets for them and their families... It wasn't because they were better or indispensable. That company folded after the mortgage bust. good riddance, but I imagine that attitude has only gotten worse in corp America.

fwiw: I was not laid off because I was indispensable, but I saw the way the wind was blowing and quit a few weeks later.

This is a weird story because if what your boss said was true then your boss is a really dumb person. First of all, if there is a contract that says the company has to buy the employees plane ticket back to their home country, then they would have to buy it regardless of when the company closes down. Delaying the inevitable doesn't change a thing.

Also, it is well know that the H1b workers when and if they actually go back to their country, go home with a better looking CV which makes them that much employable and at a higher pay rate. Terminating their contracts is not the worst thing you can do to them, just write them a good referral letter and they be on their way.

juleswin

03-13-2017, 09:28 AM

80% of people with degrees in any field, are NOT working in that field.

AND- a degree does not mean someone actually has the talent to do a job. A degree in the arts means NOTHING; tech even less. Degrees mean that you have sat in a seat for 4-8 years; it does not mean you're any good in that profession.

Degrees were actually invented to prove that someone who really didn't have the skills/talent could do the job. They could wave a piece of paper that said they knew what they were doing, instead of having any real experience/skill/talent.

Having a degree means that one has the fundamental skills to do a job. With the fundamentals skills and some on the job training, most competent people can be good enough to do the job for their degree. Also talent is not a requirement, ability and knowledge to do a job is really all that is required for most professions.

A degree in art means something, same with a degree in tech or any other field. Contrary to what people without degrees say, a degree means more than the fact that you sat in a classroom for 4 - 8 yrs. It means that for 4 - 8 yrs, your professors have been bombarding you with information and exercises related to your degrees. These are information that you would find very useful while practicing in the field. Information that would help you troubleshoot a problem when there are no specific written instructions to solve your problem. Information that helps you understand why you are doing what you are doing at work

The truth is that degrees has to come with some time spent doing an internship/residency/apprenticeship program to round it up. This is because class room and real life work are not the same thing. A student needs some time to blend the the worlds so he/she can be a professional worker.

Lastly, skill and talent are not the same thing. You can gain skill by sheer hard work and dedication. Talent comes naturally and if only people with natural ability worked in the field that matched their talents, they would be loads of sex workers running around and very few accountants, lawyers, nurses, engineers etc.

Ender

03-13-2017, 09:33 AM

Having a degree means that one has the fundamental skills to do a job. With the fundamentals skills and some on the job training, most competent people can be good enough to do the job for their degree. Also talent is not a requirement, ability and knowledge to do a job is really all that is required for most professions.

A degree in art means something, same with a degree in tech or any other field. Contrary to what people without degrees say, a degree means more than the fact that you sat in a classroom for 4 - 8 yrs. It means that for 4 - 8 yrs, your professors have been bombarding you with information and exercises related to your degrees. These are information that you would find very useful while practicing in the field. Information that would help you troubleshoot a problem when there are no specific written instructions to solve your problem. Information that helps you understand why you are doing what you are doing at work

The truth is that degrees has to come with some time spent doing an internship/residency/apprenticeship program to round it up. This is because class room and real life work are not the same thing. A student needs some time to blend the the worlds so he/she can be a professional worker.

Lastly, skill and talent are not the same thing. You can gain skill by sheer hard work and dedication. Talent comes naturally and if only people with natural ability worked in the field that matched their talents, they would be loads of sex workers running around and very few accountants, lawyers, nurses, engineers etc.

I have 3 degrees and I don't think they are anything special.

As far as the arts go, I'd rather learn the real business of film or music from someone that is out there and has their butt on the line, than from someone that has only "taught" and never experienced.

juleswin

03-13-2017, 09:47 AM

58% of H1B visa holders have a masters degree or higher. 100% hold at least a Bachelor's degree or its equivalent.
Contrary to the argument that tech companies are seeking cheap labor, H1B costs employers more. H1B visa engineers earn $5,000 more than their American born engineer counterparts. Additionally, the employer must spend an additional $10,000+ per visa holder for legal fees and costs. Additionally they pay all or a portion of travel and housing relocation to obtain the talent. They pay the added costs because that is what the individual's specialized knowledge, skill, experience commands. That is what the market will bear for the specialized talent. It is also no secret that the bulk of the H1Bs go to individuals form China and India - both very large countries with great science and engineering programs and focus. Together their populations are 1.4 billion. From such a large population to draw upon you will inevitably find exceptionally talented individuals. The H1B visa allows the US to compete for the very top .001% the rest of the world has to offer, and the capped restricted availability of H1Bs means any US company must use the H1B very selectively, which is what we find.

Where are you getting your information from? Do you have a link where it says H1B employees are more expensive than native workers. Also, the $10,000 in legal fees and costs sounds very fishy. This is because most of these companies have legal teams that process these papers for them. I doubt they would pay that much for one employee in legal fees. But again, I reserve judgement until I see your links.

Lastly, I know from experience working in a hospital that employees seem to pay extra for traveling employees to come work for us. Take for example, the hospital pays travel nurses $50 maybe $55 per hour to come in and work for them and they pay regular full time staff an average of $30 per hr. Now, looking at the numbers, it seems like they are over paying the travelers compared to their regular workers. But to the hospital is saving money by not paying the regular worker overtime of $60 per hr and no benefits to the traveler.

So in a weird way, they are saving money by paying a little more for travelers to come in. So I believe this is the sort of deal going on with H1b workers. The companies are still saving money by paying the extra in recruiting fees for their relocation and legal fees. I believe that no company goes out of their way to hire more expensive foreign workers if there are cheaper native workers available for them to hire. It is just simple logic, if they are going through all that trouble to hire them, they are a cheaper alternative.

juleswin

03-13-2017, 10:11 AM

I have 3 degrees and I don't think they are anything special.

As far as the arts go, I'd rather learn the real business of film or music from someone that is out there and has their butt on the line, than from someone that has only "taught" and never experienced.

Maybe not special but I don't think you consider those degrees as nothing. Also, why do you have 3 degrees at 26? Also, was that before or after you took you vow of poverty as a minister?

Ender

03-13-2017, 10:48 AM

Maybe not special but I am nothing you don't see them as nothing. Also, why do you have 3 degrees at 26? Also, was that before or after you took you vow of poverty as a minister?

Not sure what you mean about the "nothing" remark- I certainly don't see you as "nothing". You are on of my fav posters.

Got my HS diploma and a BA in Music Dance Theater at 16; Got a Masters in Music at 18; Masters in English at 21.

Unofficially took on a VoP at 18 and became officially ordained at 21.

juleswin

03-13-2017, 11:03 AM

Not sure what you mean about the "nothing" remark- I certainly don't see you as "nothing". You are on of my fav posters.

Got my HS diploma and a BA in Music Dance Theater at 16; Got a Masters in Music at 18; Masters in English at 21.

Unofficially took on a VoP at 18 and became officially ordained at 21.

Fixed the typo. The reason why I asked about you vow of poverty is that taking the vow can limit the way you utilize your degree. You could have been very aggressive after getting all those degrees and maybe could have started a dance studio, started performing yourself or even gone back into academia. But you ended up not using it for employment.

I am still amazed that you achieved all of that before 22. I was still without a degree at age 22 :).

Brian4Liberty

03-13-2017, 11:41 AM

I said it suggests it. And I gave a specific example. Have you ever tried to build a speech recognition program from scratch? I don't mean making a call to a Google API. I mean actually building the dog gone thing, collecting the training data, building the epochs etc. I have made the attempt. In fact I wasn't even trying to build from scratch so much as I was trying to make a build of the Carnegie Mellon CMU Sphinx library. I gave up after multiple attempts. Some of the stuff Microsoft, Google and others are hiring people for is cutting edge high tech that your average BS in comp sci simply isn't ready to handle. Sure there are H1B visas used for lesser stuff. After all apparently super models come under H1B. So you have your example where H1B may be being abused (not sure if I agree but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt) and I have a counter example. Fine.
...
Here is the other counter fact that I have for you. When I left graduate school I worked for a computer consulting firm here in Nashville. I only met one foreign born programmer out of the 100 I worked for. So....from my experience most of the tech jobs are not going to H1B visa holders. And the one that I met, east Indian, demanded as high of a salary as anybody else. Seriously he was a playboy driving a sports car and spending his money on pretty women. Having a suppressed salary was not at all acceptable to him. Again, not taking away from your experiences. They just don't happen to be mine.
...

I still don't think there is a disagreement, Both scenarios exist. There are very good people imported on H1Bs. You have illustrated that. I have seen that (such as the ones I have personally hired, when directed from higher above that the only option was H1B, and that no open worker search was allowed). But it's like the old blind men and the elephant analogy. You are touching the tail and saying it is a snake. Others touch the leg and say it's a tree.

You have seen a few PhD-level H1Bs, integrated into high level working groups. That's appropriate use. Others of us have seen large rooms and entire departments, filled with nothing but H1B workers from India, with very questionable skills and work product. This occurs because of lesser costs, and a pipeline of favoritism. If you are evaluating a program like H1B, and it is being used as intended 1% of the time, it's time to re-evaluate.

Brian4Liberty

03-13-2017, 11:42 AM

Are you in favor of protectionism for goods also? Or just services?

Are humans identical to TVs?

jmdrake

03-13-2017, 11:51 AM

I still don't think there is a disagreement, Both scenarios exist. There are very good people imported on H1Bs. You have illustrated that. I have seen that (such as the ones I have personally hired, when directed from higher above that the only option was H1B, and that no open worker search was allowed). But it's like the old blind men and the elephant analogy. You are touching the tail and saying it is a snake. Others touch the leg and say it's a tree.

You have seen a few PhD-level H1Bs, integrated into high level working groups. That's appropriate use. Others of us have seen large rooms and entire departments, filled with nothing but H1B workers from India, with very questionable skills and work product. This occurs because of lesser costs, and a pipeline of favoritism. If you are evaluating a program like H1B, and it is being used as intended 1% of the time, it's time to re-evaluate.

I didn't only mention the PhDs. I also mentioned that in my experience on the college level tech workers I only ran into 1 H1B out of 100 native born programmers. You've run into the opposite. Okay. One question that you still haven't answered is this. If H1B mostly a way to get cheap workers then isn't it even cheaper to just offshore? Seriously what can an H1B programmer do living in the U.S. that he can't do remotely living in India? Answer? Not much. And someone living in India can afford to take a much lower salary. Hell, I could afford a much lower salary if I could speak the language, blend in with the culture, (not miss my kids), and live in India and work remotely.

juleswin

03-13-2017, 11:58 AM

Are humans identical to TVs?

Considering that no 2 humans are identical, even identical twins are not identical considering that they will not experience the same mutations after they start growing. The word you are looking for is analogous and yes TVs and human labour are analogous to each other. The price of both are affected by the same law of demand and supply.

Goods, services, they are all in the same broad category when you are dealing with economics.

Brian4Liberty

03-13-2017, 12:03 PM

I didn't only mention the PhDs. I also mentioned that in my experience on the college level tech workers I only ran into 1 H1B out of 100 native born programmers. You've run into the opposite. Okay. One question that you still haven't answered is this. If H1B mostly a way to get cheap workers then isn't it even cheaper to just offshore? Seriously what can an H1B programmer do living in the U.S. that he can't do remotely living in India? Answer? Not much. And someone living in India can afford to take a much lower salary. Hell, I could afford a much lower salary if I could speak the language, blend in with the culture, (not miss my kids), and live in India and work remotely.

They have outsourced. Massively. Importing them here is more about control and coordination. Easier to work with people that can meet in person at a moments notice. There is added control when they are here, as they are tied to the employer that provides the visa. And they can supervise them live. Some employers do, and have been caught abusing H1B holders, for example making them work overtime, but telling that not to put it on their time-card, otherwise bye-bye. And when they are working in India, the employer has a retention problem. Having a major US tech company on a resume leads to a better job, so they jump ship quite often.

Hell, I could afford a much lower salary if I could speak the language

English is the universal language in India. ;)

Ender

03-13-2017, 12:08 PM

Fixed the typo. The reason why I asked about you vow of poverty is that taking the vow can limit the way you utilize your degree. You could have been very aggressive after getting all those degrees and maybe could have started a dance studio, started performing yourself or even gone back into academia. But you ended up not using it for employment.

I am still amazed that you achieved all of that before 22. I was still without a degree at age 22 :).

Thanks! I was home-schooled by some brilliant parents who "unschooled" me. I shall be forever grateful.

I am strongly in the arts and especially work with youth, as arts connect the brain and help with whole thinking. I wanted to help my fellowman and not be living in The Matrix- looked like the best option.

Brian4Liberty

03-13-2017, 12:08 PM

Considering that no 2 humans are identical, even identical twins are not identical considering that they will not experience the same mutations after they start growing. The word you are looking for is analogous and yes TVs and human labour are analogous to each other. The price of both are affected by the same law of demand and supply.

Goods, services, they are all in the same broad category when you are dealing with economics.

Yes, supply and demand does apply.

But does a TV drive to work? Live in a house? Stand in line at the grocery store? Can a human be thrown away when no longer needed? Does a TV get welfare when it's unemployed? Does a TV get free emergency medical care when needed?

The greatest failure in the intersection of society and economics is the attempt to convert everything, included humans, into simple commodities.

jmdrake

03-13-2017, 12:14 PM

They have outsourced. Massively. Importing them here is more about control and coordination. Easier to work with people that can meet in person at a moments notice.

Sure. But with the higher cost of living employers have to pay more to people who live in the U.S. versus in India.

There is added control when they are here, as they are tied to the employer that provides the visa. And they can supervise them live. Some employers do, and have been caught abusing H1B holders, for example making them work overtime, but telling that not to put it on their time-card, otherwise bye-bye.

You can supervise your foreign workers live by simply moving to India yourself or hiring someone you trust to be in India. Not a problem. As for overtime, what the hell is that? I've never gotten paid overtime as a tech worker and I'm native born and always lived in the U.S. I got comp time when I worked in a university environment. When I worked as a computer consultant they had massively expanded so much that if a project looked like it might require overtime they just threw more employees at it who otherwise would have been "on the bench" taking internal coursework to self improve. When the tech bubble burst they just started laying off people left and right and paired down to a manageable size.

And when they are working in India, the employer has a retention problem. Having a major US tech company on a resume leads to a better job, so they jump ship quite often.

And when that happens viola'! A slot is open for an American born worker if he's positioned to apply for the job.

English is the universal language in India. ;)

Then why can't I understand the people with Indian accents who work call centers? ;) Seriously I used to believe that "everybody speaks English" nonsense before I visited Japan. I don't know if all of those Japanese people were just pulling my leg and acting like the didn't understand what I was saying. India I'm sure is different having been an British colony and all, but I also don't like the idea that they can talk to each other in a language I don't understand. "Hey. Let's pull a prank on the stupid American programmer who never bothered to learn our language."

AZJoe

03-15-2017, 03:37 AM

Where are you getting your information from? Do you have a link where it says H1B employees are more expensive than native workers. Also, the $10,000 in legal fees and costs sounds very fishy. This is because most of these companies have legal teams that process these papers for them. I doubt they would pay that much for one employee in legal fees. But again, I reserve judgement until I see your links.

Sure. Here's some data links. IT H-1B workers earn more (http://mansci.journal.informs.org/content/56/5/745.abstract)than similarly skilled Americans, and H-1B engineers are paid $5,000 more a year (http://www.nfap.com/pdf/H1BVisasandtheGAOReport-NFAPPolicyBrief-January2011.pdf#page=3) than American born. And for the legal costs, compliance costs with regulations prior to hiring an H-1B can cost a firm $10,000 (http://digitalcommons.ilr.cornell.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1730&context=key_workplace#page=36), filing and other fees (http://cei.org/sites/default/files/Alex%20Nowrasteh%20-%20H1-B%20Visas.pdf) can cost additional thousands of dollars, and legal fees (http://www.hooyou.com/h-1b/attorneyfee.html) are steep. While some companies have internal legal departments, most visa processing is outsourced to firms with immigration and visa specialization. Even were a company to utilize an internal legal department, those departments are not free. How many attorneys, legal staff, office space, overhead etc. Even were a company to get as many as 20 H-1Bs a year, allocating the legal costs of a legal department is still very large.

You offer doubt as to why an employer would pay more for specialized talent, but the question is inherently silly. All workers are not identical. The more specialized the position, the more an employer is willing to pay extra for talent. Businesses pay more for specialized talent all the time as routine. Sure for mundane activities like assembling papers, filing, prepping stock ingredients, it may not be cost effective to pay extra for specialized talent. But the more specialized the field and more important to the business' advancement, they will pay top dollar. For instance, companies routinely pay up to $50,000 to high end headhunters and recruiters to find high level executive talent. They pay high level executives 9 figure salaries when they could certainly find executive workers willing to work for a fraction of that. Why would a company pay $600 an hour for a lawyer, when they can certainly find a plethora of lawyers willing to work for $150 per hour. It is because they want the specialized talent. For defense of routine $60,000 injury case, they will find a firm that will bill $120 an hour. For an intellectual property suit that may be worth lots to the company's future, they will pay the $600 an hour or more. It is silly to think that a company that relies on its technical innovation for success would not pay extra to recruit high level engineering talent.

Madison320

03-15-2017, 09:08 AM

Are humans identical to TVs?

Economic principles work the same for purchasing a good (tv) or purchasing a service (person).

Brian4Liberty

03-15-2017, 10:22 AM

Economic principles work the same for purchasing a good (tv) or purchasing a service (person).

Does a TV need healthcare? Does it need it's own home? Are these not economic effects beyond simple supply and demand?

timosman

03-15-2017, 11:11 AM

Does a TV need healthcare? Does it need it's own home? Are these not economic effects beyond simple supply and demand?

Modison320 is a very simple person. It does not need any of that. A perfect ingredient for a human centipede. :eek:

TheCount

03-15-2017, 11:38 AM

Does a TV need healthcare? Does it need it's own home? Are these not economic effects beyond simple supply and demand?This isn't your point, but yes, additional people cause the economy to grow larger. They expand the pie. Additional TVs do not. Therefore, the economic benefits of additional people are greater than those of additional TVs.

Brian4Liberty

03-15-2017, 11:55 AM

This isn't your point, but yes, additional people cause the economy to grow larger. They expand the pie. Additional TVs do not. Therefore, the economic benefits of additional people are greater than those of additional people.

Yes, I did have that in mind too. That is one part of the bigger picture. But the point is that TVs do not compete for the same resources as people (like housing). And also that there are costs, especially in a welfare state, such as healthcare.

Therefore, there is no guarantee whatsoever that there will be a net gain economically, let alone when all things are considered beyond economics, such as politics, quality of life, scarce resources, etc.

TheCount

03-15-2017, 12:09 PM

But the point is that TVs do not compete for the same resources as people (like housing).

That's only a downside if you view demand as a bad thing. If you work in construction or real estate, then 'competition' for housing means employment.

And also that there are costs, especially in a welfare state, such as healthcare.

Or, if you work in the field of healthcare, demand means employment.

Therefore, there is no guarantee whatsoever that there will be a net gain economically, let alone when all things are considered beyond economics, such as politics, quality of life, scarce resources, etc.Has there ever been a net economic loss due to population growth?

Madison320

03-15-2017, 12:36 PM

Modison320 is a very simple person. It does not need any of that. A perfect ingredient for a human centipede. :eek:

Dude, what is your problem?

Brian4Liberty

03-15-2017, 01:14 PM

That's only a downside if you view demand as a bad thing. If you work in construction or real estate, then 'competition' for housing means employment.

Or, if you work in the field of healthcare, demand means employment.

Has there ever been a net economic loss due to population growth?

All pyramid schemes eventually collapse. Government interference can hinder benefits to providers for increased demand. Not all doctors benefit from Obamacare. Resources are limited, and some people don't want to live like ants in a hive.

Has there ever been an expansion of liberty due to population growth?

"When we get piled upon one another in large cities, as in Europe, we shall become as corrupt as Europe." - Thomas Jefferson

TheCount

03-15-2017, 01:22 PM

All pyramid schemes eventually collapse.Well, in the entire span of human existence, the 'pyramid scheme' of population growth has continued unabated. I don't expect it to topple anytime soon.

Government interference can hinder benefits to providers for increased demand. Not all doctors benefit from Obamacare. Resources are limited, and some people don't want to live like ants in a hive.

Obamacare has nothing to do with this. You've posted repeatedly on this topic, and the clear indication is that you believe people to be a net negative to a society in every aspect. I disagree, and I think that all of human history is on my side.

Economics is not a zero sum game. Life is not a zero sum game. One person does not have to lose in order for another to win.

Has there ever been an expansion of liberty due to population growth?Let me see if I can follow: We need to restrict liberties in order to prevent population growth, which will then expand liberties? Will that work?

Have government restrictions on people ever led to greater liberty?

Brian4Liberty

03-15-2017, 03:46 PM

Well, in the entire span of human existence, the 'pyramid scheme' of population growth has continued unabated. I don't expect it to topple anytime soon.

Population growth has abated in the past, and decreased at times. I suppose if the yeast in a barrel of fermenting wine could talk, they would be celebrating endless population growth when they hit their peak.

Obamacare has nothing to do with this.

It's a part of the welfare state, and it's part of the cost of immigration.

You've posted repeatedly on this topic, and the clear indication is that you believe people to be a net negative to a society in every aspect.

When supply for people exceeds demand, they become worth less. Likewise, liberty results when the individual has more value. Sorry, that is my hypothesis, so you won't find it in a book, unless someone else has already put forth that hypothesis.

jmdrake

03-15-2017, 03:49 PM

Yes, I did have that in mind too. That is one part of the bigger picture. But the point is that TVs do not compete for the same resources as people (like housing). And also that there are costs, especially in a welfare state, such as healthcare.

Therefore, there is no guarantee whatsoever that there will be a net gain economically, let alone when all things are considered beyond economics, such as politics, quality of life, scarce resources, etc.

Ummmmmmmm.......welfare has nothing to do with H1B Visas. Red herring.

Brian4Liberty

03-15-2017, 03:52 PM

Ummmmmmmm.......welfare has nothing to do with H1B Visas. Red herring.

So, decades of the libertarian motto that immigration can increase once the welfare state is abolished goes right out the window?

charrob

03-15-2017, 06:35 PM

What the study found was that there was no shortage of STEM Bachelor's degrees (science, technology, engineering, math), which is not synonymous with high level technology workers. For one, the study did not address higher level Master's or Ph.D STEM degrees.

Do you have a link showing that this study involved only Bachelor's degrees? From the article:

The report, titled, Is There a STEM Worker Shortage? A look at employment and wages in science, technology, engineering, and math, is consistent with research from:

Georgetown University,
the Economic Policy Institute (EPI),
the Rand Corporation,
the Urban Institute, and
the National Research Council

that have also found no evidence that America has a shortage of high-tech workers. And its findings concluded that America “has more than twice as many workers with STEM degrees as there are STEM jobs.” When combined with slight wage growth in the STEM fields for more than a decade, the authors concluded that “both employment and wage data indicate there is no shortage of STEM workers in the United States.”

Additionally, just as all Bachelor's degrees are not alike, neither are all STEM bachelor's degrees. For instance wildlife ecology, forest management, archaeology, anthropology, etc., are all degrees that are include in the STEM Bachelor's degrees. However they have very little demand in the marketplace outside of perhaps academia, teaching or government.

Do you have a link showing that people getting degrees in "forest management", "wildlife ecology", etc., were included in the numbers in this study? The article is discussing hi-tech jobs. Additionally all those other organizations shown above had consistent results from their research and I highly doubt all those organizations were including degrees in "forest management" in their research.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The onus needs to be on the employer to prove that they cannot find the skills and abilities within the U.S. population. There may be some PHD specialty(s) that complies with this. But, overall, a result of H1b Visas has been that thousands of U.S. tech workers have been replaced by their cheaper foreign counterparts. That in itself shows there are more tech workers then there are tech jobs. All it takes is a quick google to see that this is a problem:

In Charlotte, foreign workers replace Americans in tech roles (http://www.charlotteobserver.com/news/business/article81676692.html)
The Myth of H-1B Job Creation (http://www.nationalreview.com/article/426989/h1b-visa-destroys-jobs)
Insourcing: Americans Lose Jobs to H-1B Visa Workers (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/judy-frankel/insourcing-american-lose-_b_11173074.html)
Caterpillar hires H-1B foreign grads, fires 300 Americans (http://www.wnd.com/2016/09/caterpillar-hires-h-1b-foreign-grads-fires-300-americans/)
Intel Lays Off 12,000 After Seeking Visas to Import 14,523 Foreign Professionals Since 2010 (http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2016/04/21/intel-lays-off-12k-looking-import-11600-foreign-workers-since-2010/)
American IT Workers Complain of Losing Jobs to Foreign H-1B Visa Holders (https://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/immigration/item/21715-american-it-workers-complain-of-losing-jobs-to-foreign-h-1b-visa-holders)
There Is No Tech Worker Shortage And If There Is It's The Tech Companies' Fault (https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2014/11/27/there-is-no-tech-worker-shortage-and-if-there-is-its-the-tech-companies-fault/#113f59661fdf)
Silenced workers who lost jobs to H-1B visa abuse (quietly) speak out (http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/silenced-workers-who-lost-jobs-to-h-1b-visa-abuse-quietly-speak-out/article/2561856)
Displaced American STEM workers spur Senate hearing (http://www.sciencemag.org/careers/2016/03/displaced-american-stem-workers-spur-senate-hearing)

This has destroyed many lives with people losing not just their jobs but their homes, families and way of life. For those not replaced by foreign counterparts, wages have stagnated in parts of the tech sector because of the oversupply. I've read many hardship stories in the tech sector with Americans losing everything for about 2 decades now and am sickened that the U.S. government has allowed and promoted it. This artificial increase of supply distorts the labor market, harms our people, and decreases the standard of living for Americans.

If there is a need that no American can do, a foreigner might be considered. But the question as always is: is it that no American can do the job, or is it that no American is willing to do the job for the wages offered by the employer? I suspect 99.9% of the cases is the latter. And for those cases I say if the employers want an employee with those capabilities, and Americans exist who have those capabilities, then he needs to pay the going rate for U.S. workers. That's the whole magic of supply/demand in the marketplace without the artificial distortion of endless foreigners.

There's discussion in this thread about why American young people are not going into tech fields in college. Who can blame them? They see their families, their neighbors, etc. lose their homes and everything else after getting STEM degrees then being thrown out the door by cheap labor foreigners. Why would they ever get a Comp Sci degree when that's the end result?

Superfluous Man

03-15-2017, 07:00 PM

"Abuse" is code for trying to live your life without the government bossing you around in every minuscule detail that's nobody else's business.

TheCount

03-15-2017, 08:12 PM

Population growth has abated in the past, and decreased at times.

Depending on our technological ability to feed and support the quantity of people, yes. Right now we're essentially unlimited on that.

However, current growth rates are lower because for some reason the safer and more content people feel, the less need they feel to produce a ton of kids.

I suppose if the yeast in a barrel of fermenting wine could talk, they would be celebrating endless population growth when they hit their peak.So we're not allowed to compare people to TVs, but yeast is fine.

It's a part of the welfare state, and it's part of the cost of immigration.Two things. First, you're conflating economic theory as to the value of people in the labor market and in the economy in general with a completely different issue. Second, you used other examples as well, such as housing. Are there Obamahouses? Do immigrants receive Obamacare benefits? Do citizens not?

As I said, either people are a net positive to a society or they're a net negative. It seems to be that you believe they are a net negative.

Alternatively, you could argue that the net benefit to a society of a person stems from the GPS coordinates of their mom's vagina at the time of their birth, their 'culture,' or some other metric.

When supply for people exceeds demand, they become worth less.

First:
Unemployment is going down. The country is approaching full employment. At full employment, the lack of available people will stifle economic growth, and cause entrepreneurs and investors to embark on projects in places where people are more available.

Second:
Now we're back to people are valued like TVs? I thought you just argued against that?

Third:
People spark demand for more people. Again, this is not a zero sum game. There are not a fixed number of jobs in an economy. As more people are added, an additional number is required in order to provide the various services that are demanded by the increased population.

Likewise, liberty results when the individual has more value. Sorry, that is my hypothesis, so you won't find it in a book, unless someone else has already put forth that hypothesis.If you want to value a person by their worth in a labor market, what is the value of a person living on their own in a cabin in the woods with no one else around?

Zero?

Is that person more or less free?

timosman

03-15-2017, 08:16 PM

Depending on our technological ability to feed and support the quantity of people, yes. Right now we're essentially unlimited on that.

Ok genius, you've made your point.

TheCount

03-15-2017, 08:29 PM

The onus needs to be on the employer to prove that they cannot find the skills and abilities within the U.S. population.

Alternatively, we could actually fix our immigration system and adopt something like what New Zealand has (http://skillshortages.immigration.govt.nz/), wherein there's a list of in-demand / shortage fields, as well as the required certification(s) to prove that you are qualified to work in that field. Meet those requirements? Congrats, here's your visa, and you're fast-tracked for permanent residency.

This has the double benefit of providing a (imho) better system than H-1B temp visas, and eliminating a system where the new immigrant is essentially shackled to their employer. That's to the benefit of everyone involved, if you ask me.

It's not necessarily a 'free' immigration system, but it would suck less and could potentially make both sides happy.

(Unless, of course, one of the sides is just plain anti-immigrant for other reasons and is just hiding behind jobs as a reason to oppose immigration.)

TheCount

03-15-2017, 08:30 PM

Ok genius, you've made your point.Actually not sure which direction your sarcasm is going on this one.

Brian4Liberty

03-15-2017, 09:34 PM

Depending on our technological ability to feed and support the quantity of people, yes. Right now we're essentially unlimited on that.

However, current growth rates are lower because for some reason the safer and more content people feel, the less need they feel to produce a ton of kids.

So we're not allowed to compare people to TVs, but yeast is fine.

Two things. First, you're conflating economic theory as to the value of people in the labor market and in the economy in general with a completely different issue. Second, you used other examples as well, such as housing. Are there Obamahouses? Do immigrants receive Obamacare benefits? Do citizens not?

As I said, either people are a net positive to a society or they're a net negative. It seems to be that you believe they are a net negative.

Alternatively, you could argue that the net benefit to a society of a person stems from the GPS coordinates of their mom's vagina at the time of their birth, their 'culture,' or some other metric.

First:
Unemployment is going down. The country is approaching full employment. At full employment, the lack of available people will stifle economic growth, and cause entrepreneurs and investors to embark on projects in places where people are more available.

Second:
Now we're back to people are valued like TVs? I thought you just argued against that?

Third:
People spark demand for more people. Again, this is not a zero sum game. There are not a fixed number of jobs in an economy. As more people are added, an additional number is required in order to provide the various services that are demanded by the increased population.

If you want to value a person by their worth in a labor market, what is the value of a person living on their own in a cabin in the woods with no one else around?

Zero?

Is that person more or less free?

All of this sophistry aside, you will not change my mind, and I will not change yours, so there is no point in beating a dead horse. I can say that I used to be a full global, open immigration person, and reality has required a change to that ideal. It's like someone leaving a church/religion and you are trying to convince them to come back. Sorry, ain't gonna happen.

charrob

03-15-2017, 09:56 PM

Alternatively, we could actually fix our immigration system and adopt something like what New Zealand has (http://skillshortages.immigration.govt.nz/), wherein there's a list of in-demand / shortage fields, as well as the required certification(s) to prove that you are qualified to work in that field. Meet those requirements? Congrats, here's your visa, and you're fast-tracked for permanent residency.

This has the double benefit of providing a (imho) better system than H-1B temp visas, and eliminating a system where the new immigrant is essentially shackled to their employer. That's to the benefit of everyone involved, if you ask me. It's not necessarily a 'free' immigration system, but it would suck less and could potentially make both sides happy.

Over several decades thousands of competent U.S. tech workers have been thrown out of their tech jobs and have been made to train their foreign replacements just to get their severance pay. What you have written above does not solve this problem; it exacerbates it.

Superfluous Man

03-15-2017, 10:00 PM

Does a TV need healthcare? Does it need it's own home? Are these not economic effects beyond simple supply and demand?

I don't see why simple supply and demand wouldn't still apply to those things.

Superfluous Man

03-15-2017, 10:00 PM

Over several decades thousands of competent U.S. tech workers have been thrown out of their tech jobs and have been made to train their foreign replacements just to get their severance pay. What you have written above does not solve this problem; it exacerbates it.

Why do you call that a problem?

charrob

03-15-2017, 10:33 PM

Why do you call that a problem?

Because thousands of competent U.S. tech workers would still have their homes, families and their lives would not have been destroyed had there not been an artificial influx of foreign tech workers.

timosman

03-15-2017, 11:00 PM

I don't see why simple supply and demand wouldn't still apply to those things.

Thank you for admitting this.:cool:

Brian4Liberty

03-15-2017, 11:38 PM

Thank you for admitting this.:cool:

But it's no big deal, because there is limitless room for more humans, more houses and more lanes on the freeways.

TheCount

03-16-2017, 12:26 AM

RonPaulGeorge&Ringo

03-16-2017, 02:55 AM

I don't see why

Simple thoughts from simple minds.

Superfluous Man

03-16-2017, 06:30 AM

Because thousands of competent U.S. tech workers would still have their homes, families and their lives would not have been destroyed had there not been an artificial influx of foreign tech workers.

There's no reason that should destroy anyone's life.

And those people may not have those jobs, but other people do. So they're still being done, only now more cheaply.

Seems like a good thing.

Or do you also moan the loss of tailoring jobs out there due to the advent of sewing machines?

Superfluous Man

03-16-2017, 06:31 AM

Thank you for admitting this.:cool:

Do you disagree?

Superfluous Man

03-16-2017, 06:32 AM

But it's no big deal, because there is limitless room for more humans, more houses and more lanes on the freeways.

In North America? Pretty much.

At any rate there's no disputing that, as we now are, this land is terribly underpopulated.

timosman

03-16-2017, 07:59 AM

In North America? Pretty much.

At any rate there's no disputing that, as we now are, this land is terribly underpopulated.

Absolutely, I only spend 1 hour in traffic each way to work. I see no reason why we should not try to squeeze more people per sq ft.

timosman

03-16-2017, 08:01 AM

Simple thoughts from simple minds.

+rep Combined with a sense of superiority is when it gets really interesting.:cool:

timosman

03-16-2017, 08:03 AM

Is the influx artificially large or artificially small because of government?

Were you naturally gifted with your social skills or did you have to work to develop them?:cool:

Superfluous Man

03-16-2017, 08:15 AM

Absolutely, I only spend 1 hour in traffic each way to work. I see no reason why we should not try to squeeze more people per sq ft.

Then you live in a highly populated area. No matter where in America that is, you can travel 50 miles in almost any direction and find plenty of empty space. Just because you don't want more people in that little 100 square mile world you never step outside of, that's no reason to want a one-size-fits-all law imposed on the entire 4 million square miles of the USA where the conditions you describe don't exist.

timosman

03-16-2017, 08:28 AM

Then you live in a highly populated area. No matter where in America that is, you can travel 50 miles in almost any direction and find plenty of empty space. Just because you don't want more people in that little 100 square mile world you never step outside of, that's no reason to want a one-size-fits-all law imposed on the entire 4 million square miles of the USA where the conditions you describe don't exist.

I think it was you who wanted to impose "a one-size-fits-all law" on everybody.:cool:

Superfluous Man

03-16-2017, 08:33 AM

I think it was you who wanted to impose "a one-size-fits-all law" on everybody.:cool:

Then you're really as dumb as you act.

timosman

03-16-2017, 08:36 AM

Then you're really as dumb as you act.

Coming from you I take it as a compliment.:cool:

Superfluous Man

03-16-2017, 08:39 AM

Coming from you I take it as a compliment.:cool:

Why do you even post here? Is it just to troll? You obviously don't support the site mission and probably didn't support Ron Paul in any way.

Note to mods: I didn't call Timo's man a troll. I just asked the question. Please don't ban me.

timosman

03-16-2017, 08:53 AM

Why do you even post here? Is it just to troll? You obviously don't support the site mission and probably didn't support Ron Paul in any way.

Note to mods: I didn't call Timo's man a troll. I just asked the question. Please don't ban me.

It was nice talking to you. For someone with such a short tenure on the board you make excellent points. Hope to see you around in the future.:cool:

AZJoe

03-16-2017, 10:42 PM

So, decades of the libertarian motto that immigration can increase once the welfare state is abolished goes right out the window?

This is a non-sequitor Brian. Obviously someone working for a living in private voluntary relationship with private business is not welfare.

AZJoe

03-16-2017, 11:02 PM

Do you have a link showing that people getting degrees in "forest management", "wildlife ecology", etc., were included in the numbers in this study? The article is discussing hi-tech jobs. Additionally all those other organizations shown above had consistent results from their research and I highly doubt all those organizations were including degrees in "forest management" in their research.

As you cited to the study, shouldn't you already be aware of what was included in it? The study itself has an appendix that states that it included degrees under the categories of such items as "animal science", "food science", "botany", "zoology", "ecology", "nutrition science", "miscellaneous biology", "cognitive science", "astronomy", which encompass the above degrees such as forest management and wildlife ecology which are both "ecology" degrees.

Do you have a link showing that this study involved only Bachelor's degrees?
Again, its in the very study you referred to. The study itself states:

"STEM Degrees. Beginning in 2009, the ACS began to ask those with bachelor's degrees about their undergraduate majors in college. Although the ACS records if an individual has a graduate degree, it does not record respondents' graduate field of study. As a result, throughout this report a STEM degree refers to an individual's undergraduate education only."(emphasis added)

BSWPaulsen

03-16-2017, 11:05 PM

There's no reason that should destroy anyone's life.

And those people may not have those jobs, but other people do. So they're still being done, only now more cheaply.

Seems like a good thing.

Or do you also moan the loss of tailoring jobs out there due to the advent of sewing machines?

If you honestly believe the bolded, then you do not meaningfully interact in your community. People's lives are structured around their profession. Their economic responsibilities are tied to their career. When that person is displaced and can no longer meet their obligations their lives are effectively destroyed. They must accept a new role in life, one less than what they had spent many hours of their life developing. The game of life dealt them a bad hand and they lost.

Libertarianism is fine with the fact certain lives, in certain professions, are effectively destroyed by progress. It's a good thing in the greater picture.

It's really unbecoming when people that proclaim a love of liberty try to shove this under the blanket by acting like there is no reason that an individual's displacement would ruin their lives. At least have the balls to tell those people "It is a good thing your life is ruined, because the rest of humanity is making progress. Learn new skills so that you are relevant again."

But make damn sure the population doesn't catch on that they can put at end to it when they've had enough of watching their communities displaced as a result of this. Humanity has this penchant for putting a halt to progress when it doesn't like what it's doing to the people around them. Violently. And rightly so.

This is a non-sequitor Brian. Obviously someone working for a living in private voluntary relationship with private business is not welfare.

If that someone is working for a business that lobbied the government for anything, then the line seems awfully damn hazy to me.

timosman

03-17-2017, 01:12 AM

This is a non-sequitor Brian. Obviously someone working for a living in private voluntary relationship with private business is not welfare.

Voluntary relationship. What are the other options? You can always pound sand?:cool:

AZJoe

03-17-2017, 05:30 AM

Voluntary relationship. What are the other options?

The other alternative is called government, which is involuntary. When government decides to create an alphabet agency (TSA, NSA, EPA, BLM, DEA ... ) or politician's or agency's latest pet program and hire people and spend and enforce, they do not need your voluntary cooperation. It is not a voluntary exchange. Workers, savers, investors are forced to purchase/pay for it through taxes or inflation, whether they want to or not.

Superfluous Man

03-17-2017, 08:33 AM

If you honestly believe the bolded, then you do not meaningfully interact in your community.

I do believe it, and I do interact with my community. Job changes and even career changes happen all the time. And the people who have to undergo them generally survive the ordeal. Artificially propping up someone's job just to keep them in it and not have to experience change does more harm than good.

The statist propaganda that you and others here are spewing is just another variation of luddism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luddite). You want to zero in on a group of people who lose their jobs like that tiny subset of the population is a closed system, focus on the seen at the expense of the unseen (http://www.econlib.org/library/Bastiat/basEss1.html), and use that as an excuse to support policies that are far more destructive than the job losses you use as your pretext.

I sincerely hope that all of you stick around here and keep open minds. Give some thought to the free market ideology that Ron Paul and this website champion, and you may find it not to be as stupid as you think it is.

Brian4Liberty

03-17-2017, 10:05 AM

This is a non-sequitor Brian. Obviously someone working for a living in private voluntary relationship with private business is not welfare.

The "welfare state" is a general term for all kinds of benefits provided by government. Entry into the US adds another person (and family) to the welfare state. As Ron Paul often says, the entire welfare state is a magnet. H1B is a pathway to citizenship, and then the full benefits and safety nets will be available legally.

BSWPaulsen

03-17-2017, 12:39 PM

I do believe it, and I do interact with my community. Job changes and even career changes happen all the time. And the people who have to undergo them generally survive the ordeal. Artificially propping up someone's job just to keep them in it and not have to experience change does more harm than good.

Every overly generalized line you write makes it painfully obvious you don't interact in your community worth a damn. Your exclusive focus on the big picture makes it obvious. As I said before, at least have the balls to discuss that specific group in plain detail.

The statist propaganda that you and others here are spewing is just another variation of luddism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luddite). You want to zero in on a group of people who lose their jobs like that tiny subset of the population is a closed system, focus on the seen at the expense of the unseen (http://www.econlib.org/library/Bastiat/basEss1.html), and use that as an excuse to support policies that are far more destructive than the job losses you use as your pretext.

Here's the point you're missing because you're too blind to see it. It doesn't require statist solutions for the population to have enough of displacement. Violence does not require the state, or did you forget that? Do you think human history always required a state for tribes to come into conflict when one felt pressured or threatened by another? Do you seriously believe humans don't show marked preference for those they know over ones they do not? Do you believe humans will not fight for the ones close to them at the expense of those that are not? How, in the name of all that is holy, does any of that require the state?

Displaced populations, given a high enough percentage of the population, are prone to taking affairs into their own hands. That's the point. If enough of the population is suffering displacement and discontent, then they can become a potent force in their own right. In fact, the great irony in all this is in order to successfully displace a population with an influx of foreigners you need the government's force to accomplish it, because the foreigners would not have the means to defend their claims without the government's protection.

So if you want to argue for the displacement of an existing population, for any reason (in this case, economically), then you had better be ready to bring government force as back up. And that makes you a statist, because you know damn well what is going to happen without government force and it isn't pretty. Only a government has the force necessary to force integration on a population, which is damned well necessary when one population's prosperity declines in favor of another. Human history bears this out, hell American history bears this out.

So how's it feel arguing for an economic point of view that ignores the tribal behavior of humans and requires a state to defend your desired economic system? Come on Superfluous Man, stop spreading statist propaganda.

BSWPaulsen

03-18-2017, 12:36 AM

It's not because of lacking balls. It's because of not wanting to be fallacious. To narrow the discussion to that specific group, and treat them as if they're a closed system, is to focus on the seen at the expense of the unseen. (http://www.econlib.org/library/Bastiat/basEss1.html)

Not wanting to be fallacious? My God, man, your entire position became fallacious the moment you showed yourself incapable of discussing a specific group.

These people exist, they are not a logical fallacy. Your refusal to address that particular group is most definitely because you lack balls, not because you are interested in logical consistency. Logical consistency would result in telling those people "It's a good thing your lives were ruined. It means progress when these foreigners do the job more cheaply than you did. Obtain more skills so you are relevant again, even if your life will probably be worse than what it was due to your many hours spent developing skills that are no longer worth as much. Enjoy your lower standard of living."

When a community has had enough of seeing foreigners displace those around them you had better hope government is there to keep them from becoming violent. Those with an understanding of human history have a good idea of where this is headed (populism is on the rise for a reason, and history has given us a pretty damn good indicator of what the end result of it is), and what you're endorsing will require government force if what you think is "progress" is to be sustained. And God save the people that endorsed the foreigners displacing the existing population in the event the displaced rise to power, because the fate in store for them is not to be envied.

Calling someone who loses their job because someone else will do it for less a "displaced population" is shear propaganda.

When there is more than one of that individual it creates a displaced population. Plural. Technically correct in its entirety, and you can be damn sure there is a lot more than just one individual given what the H1B visa program constitutes. Not sheer propaganda as you fancy it, but plainly factual truth. All I need is 2 individuals displaced by a foreigner being invited to take their job and my position is the correct one.

And you're definitely intellectually disingenuous if you think inviting foreigners to do work already done by domestic workers does not amount to population displacement. Your position is intellectually rotten to its core, and is not even remotely tenable.

timosman

03-18-2017, 12:53 AM

charrob

03-18-2017, 05:21 PM

Additionally, just as all Bachelor's degrees are not alike, neither are all STEM bachelor's degrees. For instance wildlife ecology, forest management, archaeology, anthropology, etc., are all degrees that are include in the STEM Bachelor's degrees. However they have very little demand in the marketplace outside of perhaps academia, teaching or government.

The study itself has an appendix that states that it included degrees under the categories of such items as "animal science", "food science", "botany", "zoology", "ecology", "nutrition science", "miscellaneous biology", "cognitive science", "astronomy", which encompass the above degrees such as forest management and wildlife ecology which are both "ecology" degrees.

http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag411/carol_green2/My%20Public%20Album/H1b%20Visas%20-3_zps6to1aumv.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/carol_green2/media/My%20Public%20Album/H1b%20Visas%20-3_zps6to1aumv.jpg.html)

Okay, so what you're saying is that on the right side of the image above there are some degrees under the "Science" heading which have little opportunity for employment. Okay, fair enough. Although i would argue most Americans are spending their time and energy getting STEM degrees that are employable yet, because of foreigners with those same degrees getting these jobs in the U.S., many Americans are getting screwed and having to find employment outside of the areas in which they trained and/or worked (in the case of workers being made to train their cheaper foreign replacements).

From the study:

"As already indicated, the acronym STEM stands for science (life and physical), technology (computer science), engineering, and math."

"Table 2 (below) reads as follows: 50 percent of natives with a technology degree have a technology job. The grayed boxes show the share of those working in the same field as their undergraduate degrees. Thus, only 2 percent of natives with a math degree have a math job, only 34 percent of the U.S.-born with an engineering degree work as an engineer, and 10 percent of those with a science degree have a job in science."

So even if, for the sake of argument, you want to ignore the right side of the above image under the "Science" heading and only consider degrees on the left side of the above image (ie. Technology, Mathematics, and Engineering), you still have a huge number of Americans who have spent a chunk of their lives getting STEM degrees in employable STEM fields (and some who have worked in those fields for decades) who either cannot get jobs in those fields, or are being thrown out of fields in which they have trained and worked for decades because huge numbers of foreigners with those same degrees are being brought into this country to work at the same jobs.

http://i1374.photobucket.com/albums/ag411/carol_green2/My%20Public%20Album/H1b%20Visas%20-1_zpsrsg6obum.jpg (http://s1374.photobucket.com/user/carol_green2/media/My%20Public%20Album/H1b%20Visas%20-1_zpsrsg6obum.jpg.html)

So, at a bachelor's level (which most tech jobs in this country require) in computer science and engineering, it is completely unnecessary to increase the supply of foreign H1b visa workers. And this is where most of these H1b's are going. If you're talking about highly specialized skills then there _might_ be a need to import a foreigner here or there. But that's the exception not the rule.

Now there are some here who feel it is okay to import huge numbers of foreigners willing to take the jobs of American tech workers on the cheap. That's a different argument and an argument of globalization versus nationalism. I _despise_ globalization because it's a race to the bottom to compete against foreigners willing to be slave laborers just to get a paycheck. And globalization has proven since the 1990s to massively decrease the standard of living of American citizens as a whole. Artificially increasing the supply of foreign tech workers distorts the U.S. labor market and the whole supply/demand equation; without this distortion, employers would have to pay the going rate. Rather than a race to the bottom which globalization pushes, I prefer stabilization of our labor market so that living standards can be lifted up for the working and middle classes.

timosman

03-19-2017, 10:21 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=envbbUc4LhU

timosman

03-19-2017, 10:35 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RF6hPjcGEo

Brian4Liberty

03-20-2017, 01:52 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RF6hPjcGEo

More parts:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pix5DW9--UQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RPnLVf8tt8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fe7e25H6Uko