Breaking news. Trump "I've been told torture absolutely works"

[jmdrake]

Just saw the headline on CNN. I'm posting this from my phone so I don't have an easy way to pay the link. You know what's really going to be torture? Watching pro liberty trumpeters try to spin this one. Actually it should be entertaining.

[KEEF]

Here is the story
http://https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2017/01/25/politics/donald-trump-waterboarding-torture/index.html?client=safari (https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2017/01/25/politics/donald-trump-waterboarding-torture/index.html?client=safari)

Trump on waterboarding: 'We have to fight fire with fire'
By Dan Merica, CNN
Updated 5:14 PM EST, Wed January 25, 2017

Story highlights
"Do I feel it works? Absolutely, I feel it works," Trump said about torture
Democrats and Republicans alike have shot down the idea of bringing back torture methods
(CNN) President Donald Trump said he wants to "fight fire with fire" when it comes to stopping terrorism, suggesting that he could be open to bringing back torture because he "absolutely" believes it works.

By reinstating enhanced interrogation, Trump would violate a US law ratified by the Senate in 2015 and go against the view of Defense Secretary James Mattis. CIA Director Mike Pompeo told senators earlier this month that he wouldn't sanction the use of torture, though he later said he would consider bringing back waterboarding and other enhanced interrogation measures under certain circumstances.

In an interview with ABC News, Trump said "people at the highest level of intelligence" have told him that torture does work, something military experts have refuted. He went on to say, however, that he will listen to what his Cabinet secretaries have to say about the issue.


"When ISIS is doing things that no one has ever heard of, since medieval times, would I feel strongly about waterboarding?" Trump said. "As far as I'm concerned, we have to fight fire with fire."

Trump's argument was that ISIS is beheading people and posting the videos online, but that the United States is "not allowed to do anything."

"We're not playing on an even field," Trump said. "I want to do everything within the bounds of what you're allowed to do legally. But do I feel it works? Absolutely, I feel it works."

Democrats and Republicans alike have shot down the idea of bringing back torture methods that were used by the Bush administration after the terrorist attacks on September 11, 2001.

Pompeo said earlier this month that he would "absolutely not" restart the CIA's use of enhanced interrogation tactics that fall outside of Army Field Manuals.

"Moreover, I can't imagine I would be asked that by the President-elect," Pompeo said during his confirmation hearing.

But in a series of written responses to questions from members of the Senate intelligence committee, Pompeo later said that while current permitted interrogation techniques are limited to those contained in the Army Field Manual, he was open to making changes to that policy.

The Senate voted overwhelming to ban torture across the US government in 2015, codifying a ban President Barack Obama issued by executive order shortly after he was sworn in in 2009. Obama then signed the updated defense authorization bill into law.

Sen. John Thune, a South Dakota Republican, said the use of torture is "settled law" and that "Congress has spoken."

The Senate intelligence committee produced a nearly 7,000-page classified report on torture, detention and interrogation after the George W. Bush administration brought back the practice. The authors of the report found the practice was ineffective and did not produce actionable intelligence.

"Reconstituting this appalling program would compromise our values, our morals and our standing as a world leader -- this cannot happen," Sen. Dianne Feinstein, a California Democrat, said in a statement on Wednesday. "We can't base national security policies on what works on television -- policies must be grounded in reality."

[69360]

Meh, maybe sometimes it works. It's unconstitutional to torture US citizens. So that will never be ok.

I can see very, very few instances where it would be useful. Say you have definitive proof of an impending attack. Say you have top terror leaders like Al.Baghdadi or OBL etc in custody. Fine give it a go once and see if they talk.

We should not be waterboarding a guy who drove a truck for OBL in Afghanistan 10 years ago every day for years just to see if he has any info.

So very high standard of proof. Potus has to personally sign off on it and be publicly accountable for it.

[CPUd]

They're chopping off heads!

[CPUd]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYE6TTzsTm4

[jmdrake]

Meh, maybe sometimes it works. It's unconstitutional to torture US citizens. So that will never be ok.

I can see very, very few instances where it would be useful. Say you have definitive proof of an impending attack. Say you have top terror leaders like Al.Baghdadi or OBL etc in custody. Fine give it a go once and see if they talk.

We should not be waterboarding a guy who drove a truck for OBL in Afghanistan 10 years ago every day for years just to see if he has any info.

So very high standard of proof. Potus has to personally sign off on it and be publicly accountable for it.

Why torture people like Osama Bin Laden when you could have just taken him off the payroll?

According to Seymour Hersh almost everything you were told about the raid to "kill" Osama Bin Laden was a lie anyway. His sources tell us that Pakistan walked the special forces into the compound that was actually his prison and collected the reward after he was summarily executed. The two fake and conflicting stories put out by the Navy SEALS who claimed to have killed him show that there was never an attempt to capture OBL alive. If they really wanted to get information from him.......?

Oh, and torture isn't one of those things that you can say "Well...we'll use it sometimes when we really really need it." If we use it we use it. You never know when that "high value target" is really innocent until its too late. Read the book Ghost Plane by Stephen Gray. It goes over the CIA extraordinary rendition program. It also details the harrowing experience of a Canadian Muslim that the CIA snatched and grabbed because they saw him leaving a mosque with someone they suspected of terrorism. He was taken by the CIA to Syria where he was tortured with razor blades on his genitals. Ultimately even George W. Bush had to admit he was most likely innocent. How do you unring that bell?

[69360]

Why torture people like Osama Bin Laden when you could have just taken him off the payroll?

According to Seymour Hersh almost everything you were told about the raid to "kill" Osama Bin Laden was a lie anyway. His sources tell us that Pakistan walked the special forces into the compound that was actually his prison and collected the reward after he was summarily executed. The two fake and conflicting stories put out by the Navy SEALS who claimed to have killed him show that there was never an attempt to capture OBL alive. If they really wanted to get information from him.......?

Oh, and torture isn't one of those things that you can say "Well...we'll use it sometimes when we really really need it." If we use it we use it. You never know when that "high value target" is really innocent until its too late. Read the book Ghost Plane by Stephen Gray. It goes over the CIA extraordinary rendition program. It also details the harrowing experience of a Canadian Muslim that the CIA snatched and grabbed because they saw him leaving a mosque with someone they suspected of terrorism. He was taken by the CIA to Syria where he was tortured with razor blades on his genitals. Ultimately even George W. Bush had to admit he was most likely innocent. How do you unring that bell?

Like I said, only the top leadership, only with an imminent attack and get potus publicly accountable on paper. Those are very high standards. I can't see something like that happening more than once a decade or more. I could live with that morally. Beyond that I think it's wrong.


We are never going to know what really happened with OBL, but I am inclined to believe the theory that seals blew his skull apart for fun. They call it "canoeing". Google it. Apparently seals had a real problem with it and no accountability.

[jmdrake]

Like I said, only the top leadership, only with an imminent attack and get potus publicly accountable on paper. Those are very high standards. I can't see something like that happening more than once a decade or more. I could live with that morally. Beyond that I think it's wrong.

Nice in theory, but in practice what happens is what I described. Low level suspects who may be innocent or guilty get their balls sliced. Supposedly it was the torture of some low level minion that led to the most likely fake raid to get Osama Bin Laden.



We are never going to know what really happened with OBL, but I am inclined to believe the theory that seals blew his skull apart for fun. They call it "canoeing". Google it. Apparently seals had a real problem with it and no accountability.

Two different SEALS gave incompatible accounts of what happened to the point that one or both of them had to have been lying.

The Pentagon said the lost the DNA evidence confirming death.

They said they had pictures. They released pictures. Then after the pictures were debunked they said their were no pictures.

All of the helmet cams supposedly malfunctioned at once.

The only picture the released from the compound is one of supposedly of Osama Bin Laden seen from the back watching TV. It doesn't look like him.

Google Saving Private Lynch. Fake "heroic raids" that are put out as propaganda until they are completely debunked have happened before.

Believe what you want but there has been no real evidence released to show proof of death.

[Brian4Liberty]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYE6TTzsTm4

They start out with Trump. Basically he says that he feels it works, and others believe that it works, and he will do "everything within the bounds of what you are allowed to do legally". He also says that he will rely on the console of Pompeo and Mattis.

As Rand points out, it is against the law right now, and Executive Orders do not supercede law.

Those who believe that torture works have been brainwashed by Hollywood and neocons who constantly push hypothetical fantasies about how it works in a "ticking time bomb" scenario. It should be noted that even many of the supporters of torture use the caveat of only in that extreme hypothetical, but not as a standard practice. Certainly not "yes, absolutely it works" as Trump is saying.

[Schifference]

Strategically if Trump's intention is to eliminate Islamist extremists then he should represent strength and instill fear about being caught.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-CdSuFZj1s

[RJB]

This is what Bush, Obama and Clinton believe. They just weren't honest/stupid enough to say it out loud.

[69360]

They start out with Trump. Basically he says that he feels it works, and others believe that it works, and he will do "everything within the bounds of what you are allowed to do legally". He also says that he will rely on the console of Pompeo and Mattis.

As Rand points out, it is against the law right now, and Executive Orders do not supercede law.

Those who believe that torture works have been brainwashed by Hollywood and neocons who constantly push hypothetical fantasies about how it works in a "ticking time bomb" scenario. It should be noted that even many of the supporters of torture use the caveat of only in that extreme hypothetical, but not as a standard practice. Certainly not "yes, absolutely it works" as Trump is saying.

I said maybe it works. Maybe it doesn't. I don't feel brainwashed. Ticking time bomb scenario. For arguments sake, lets assume it is legitimate. We have a high value terrorist leader in custody. I'm morally ok with him suffering in this one scenario if it save Americans. Otherwise I am almost always against torture.

[Brian4Liberty]

Strategically if Trump's intention is to eliminate Islamist extremists then he should represent strength and instill fear about being caught.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-CdSuFZj1s

Case in point. More leftist Hollywood propaganda glorifying torture, brutality and gratuitous violence.

[bunklocoempire]

Just saw the headline on CNN. I'm posting this from my phone so I don't have an easy way to pay the link. You know what's really going to be torture? Watching pro liberty trumpeters try to spin this one. Actually it should be entertaining.

I know this dance.

It's the Paul Ryan TARP dance.

Preserve human rights by destroying human rights. Just sometimes though, only for certain circumstances -because every other friggin' thing under the sun including liberty, has already been tried.

Right or wrong or consistent? Who cares, because fear.:rolleyes:

[Anti Federalist]

Just saw the headline on CNN. I'm posting this from my phone so I don't have an easy way to pay the link. You know what's really going to be torture? Watching pro liberty trumpeters try to spin this one. Actually it should be entertaining.

Trump remains, to me anyway, very much of a mixed bag: a real life version of Bertie Bott's Every Flavour Beans.

Just as likely to get cherry or chocolate as ear wax or vomit.

Over the past few days I've been very impressed with some things, and highly suspect of others, such as this, or his CIA pick, or the cop statement.

At least there's something there rather than a limp and weaksauce continuation of the status quo.

So, me, personally, I guess I have no choice but to soldier on, support him on the many issues we agree and oppose on issues like this.

[Root]

WWRPD?

[Schifference]

If you are going to step into the ring you better be ready to fight and win. Why get into the ring if you know you cannot win? Don't go into an MMA cage expecting boxing rules to apply to you while the opponent is out to kick ass.

In our own country, we see people with defective car blinkers, old men in wheel chairs, deaf people, beaten and tasered for no reason. It would be wise to smarten up and kill high value targets rather than dropping bombs on innocent civilians. Either get the fuch out or figure out how to win and make the terrorists fear being terrorists.

[A. Havnes]

This is what Bush, Obama and Clinton believe. They just weren't honest/stupid enough to say it out loud.

The nice thing about Trump is that he doesn't try and hide his ill intentions behind a veil of virtue; he just blurts it out there for everyone to hear. Anyone who thinks this is even remotely different (meaning "fascist") than Obama is running around with the wool pulled over their eyes.

Like many of us predicted, Trump isn't Rand Paul. He's not the great liberty candidate we need, but this is what we've got. He's certainly not the worst pick for Prez, but...

[Anti Federalist]

WWRPD?

Well, glad you asked.

Here he is today, saying basically the same thing.

Ron Paul: the best president we will never have.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYJR-_ZxOao

[69360]

If you are going to step into the ring you better be ready to fight and win. Why get into the ring if you know you cannot win? Don't go into an MMA cage expecting boxing rules to apply to you while the opponent is out to kick ass.

In our own country, we see people with defective car blinkers, old men in wheel chairs, deaf people, beaten and tasered for no reason. It would be wise to smarten up and kill high value targets rather than dropping bombs on innocent civilians. Either get the fuch out or figure out how to win and make the terrorists fear being terrorists.

I think it would be better to torture known, self admitted terrorist leaders than to drone suspected ones.

[bunklocoempire]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Skeom9K8fww

[Root]

Well, glad you asked.

Here he is today, saying basically the same thing.

Ron Paul: the best president we will never have.



Out of ammo
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Anti Federalist again.

[ThePaleoLibertarian]

Well, he's right.

[Christian Liberty]

Why torture people like Osama Bin Laden when you could have just taken him off the payroll?

According to Seymour Hersh almost everything you were told about the raid to "kill" Osama Bin Laden was a lie anyway. His sources tell us that Pakistan walked the special forces into the compound that was actually his prison and collected the reward after he was summarily executed. The two fake and conflicting stories put out by the Navy SEALS who claimed to have killed him show that there was never an attempt to capture OBL alive. If they really wanted to get information from him.......?

Oh, and torture isn't one of those things that you can say "Well...we'll use it sometimes when we really really need it." If we use it we use it. You never know when that "high value target" is really innocent until its too late. Read the book Ghost Plane by Stephen Gray. It goes over the CIA extraordinary rendition program. It also details the harrowing experience of a Canadian Muslim that the CIA snatched and grabbed because they saw him leaving a mosque with someone they suspected of terrorism. He was taken by the CIA to Syria where he was tortured with razor blades on his genitals. Ultimately even George W. Bush had to admit he was most likely innocent. How do you unring that bell? I don't agree with you all that often, but this time I do.

[TER]

Trump is not looking to make himself appear to be some kind of great saint, perfect in virtue and meek and humble in disposition. He is not trying to create any false illusions, like those many Presidents before him, including the Drone Coward Obama, who played the empathetic guardian while droning innocent children. Trump says it like he feels it and portrays himself as he is. For better or for worse, that deserves respect. Even though he doesn't even do that honestly, still much better than the one before him.

Trump has been exposed and knows that everything he does from now on will be attacked and questioned and distorted or ignored, and these attacks will be unrelenting. No President in my lifetime had to deal with such utter opposition and pure madness in the beginning of his inauguration, like the pathetic liberal march which tried to use womanhood as their rallying cry, and wore pink vagina hats and holding obscene placards while trolling strollers with their children at tow. It was like the earth opened up a crack and started bleeding pink stupidity all over itself.

Or the clearly biased and discredited major media outlets who have manipulated the sheep into getting into bed with the goats.

Trump is doing things like he has nothing left to lose, because in some ways, it really is the world versus Trump. That is dangerous, but it can also be revolutionary. Time will tell.

[TER]

Trump remains, to me anyway, very much of a mixed bag: a real life version of Bertie Bott's Every Flavour Beans.

Just as likely to get cherry or chocolate as ear wax or vomit.

Over the past few days I've been very impressed with some things, and highly suspect of others, such as this, or his CIA pick, or the cop statement.

At least there's something there rather than a limp and weaksauce continuation of the status quo.

So, me, personally, I guess I have no choice but to soldier on, support him on the many issues we agree and oppose on issues like this.

My sentiment exactly. Well said.

[presence]

"Reconstituting this appalling program would compromise our values, our morals and our standing as a world leader -- this cannot happen," Sen. Dianne Feinstein, a California Democrat, said in a statement on Wednesday.

I stand with Feinstein?

wtf is this world coming to?

[Jamesiv1]

Is chopping off a thief's hand a humane and just punishment?

Most in the West would say no. But I guarantee countries that do it suffer less theft than countries that don't.

[presence]

Well, he's right.

Is chopping off a thief's hand a humane and just punishment?

how did I know I could count on you two to rim trumps ass on yet another anti-liberty stance?

[staerker]

Last week Trump was a lunatic for not trusting "intelligence officials." What is it now?

Of course the answer is to never trust the CIA, intellectual honesty required.

[CaptUSA]

Trump remains, to me anyway, very much of a mixed bag: a real life version of Bertie Bott's Every Flavour Beans.

Just as likely to get cherry or chocolate as ear wax or vomit.

Over the past few days I've been very impressed with some things, and highly suspect of others, such as this, or his CIA pick, or the cop statement.

At least there's something there rather than a limp and weaksauce continuation of the status quo.

So, me, personally, I guess I have no choice but to soldier on, support him on the many issues we agree and oppose on issues like this.

Caution here. Ron Paul has warned about the dangers of seeking liberty piece-meal.

I like the noise being made to reduce the regulatory state - I think that's good. But is it worth expanding the police/surveillance/war state to get it?! Hell no!
My guess is that we're going to end up with bigger of both. Some regulations may be reduced, but we'll get all sorts of new regulations.

To me, Trump is like the rest. He may mean to govern in a way that is more palatable to some people, but make no mistake - he means to govern. (h/t D. Webster)

[Jamesiv1]

how did I know I could count on you two to rim trumps ass on yet another anti-liberty stance?
Thank you for having an adult conversation about it, instead of being a dumb-ass.

[timosman]

Is chopping off a thief's hand a humane and just punishment?

Most in the West would say no. But I guarantee countries that do it suffer less theft than countries that don't.

BS. They wouldn't be chopping hands if this was the case.

[timosman]

This is what Bush, Obama and Clinton believe. They just weren't honest/stupid enough to say it out loud.

What if Trump is simply trolling to force a discussion on the issue?:cool:

[fisharmor]

Did I misread here, or are there people on this forum saying torture is OK?

[timosman]

Did I misread here, or are there people on this forum saying torture is OK?

Yes, it is OK if done to other people. If done to me, not so much.

[AZJoe]

https://i.imgflip.com/1ieiar.jpg

[timosman]

Can IRS torture people? I am sure this would result in a very significant revenue increase.

[bunklocoempire]

how did I know I could count on you two to rim trumps ass on yet another anti-liberty stance?

Group fear and group reactions are the new individual liberty. The bar is constantly being lowered.

Those guy's acted like an animal, therefore, I can easily have a third party act as an animal in OUR name -or worse.
Chain down government? Nah, WE can trust government with TORTURE -look how nice the roads are. Hey, why aren't you guys as scared as I am? Didn't you see 24 last night? Respect myself? Nah, just as long as the enemy respects a torturing contractor.

WTF?! Yellow and brainwashed -that's WTF. Liberty doesn't do fear... except for...:rolleyes:

No one gets out alive. Start there, cupcakes. It worked for me back in 2007, it can work for you.

[TheCount]

Can IRS torture people?Only in the face of an imminent and clear loss of tax revenue.

[ThePaleoLibertarian]

how did I know I could count on you two to rim trumps ass on yet another anti-liberty stance?
"Torture works" is a factual claim. Whether it's ethical to use torture or not is a different matter, but I'd agree with the statement no matter who said it.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Only in the face of an imminent and clear loss of tax revenue.


What?! You are a big supporters of taxes. You are not going to be against tax collectors. Nice try, though, "supporting member." :rolleyes:

[timosman]

"Torture works" is a factual claim. Whether it's ethical to use torture or not is a different matter, but I'd agree with the statement no matter who said it.

You are somewhat limited in your thinking so let me help you. Imagine being tortured for an information you do not have. What would happen? What information would you make up in order to stop being tortured? Maybe you would just suffer in silence?:eek:

[heavenlyboy34]

"Torture works" is a factual claim. Whether it's ethical to use torture or not is a different matter, but I'd agree with the statement no matter who said it.
Except it's not. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/dec/09/senate-committee-cia-torture-does-not-work

[A. Havnes]

Group fear and group reactions are the new individual liberty. The bar is constantly being lowered.

Those guy's acted like an animal, therefore, I can easily have a third party act as an animal in OUR name -or worse.
Chain down government? Nah, WE can trust government with TORTURE -look how nice the roads are. Hey, why aren't you guys as scared as I am? Didn't you see 24 last night? Respect myself? Nah, just as long as the enemy respects a torturing contractor.

WTF?! Yellow and brainwashed -that's WTF. Liberty doesn't do fear... except for...:rolleyes:

No one gets out alive. Start there, cupcakes. It worked for me back in 2007, it can work for you.

Crazy how many people who would have stood against torture during Ron Paul's campaign or during Obama's reign will now support it because there's a Republican as POTUS.

Gotta love Trump's logic here. "Our enemies, who recruit their peeps in part by portraying us as barbarians, chop off peoples' heads and torture them. Why do I want to be take the moral high ground? I say we torture harder!"

Sermon on the Mount doesn't apply to Trump, despite the fact that he somehow got the Christian vote...

[staerker]

https://twitter.com/FoxNews/status/825046211707170816

825046211707170816

[Zippyjuan]

Waffling yet again? Trump's positions on things are getting really hard to keep track of. Though he will never publicly admit to being wrong. About anything. Ever.

[staerker]

Waffling yet again? Trump's positions on things are getting really hard to keep track of. Though he will never publicly admit to being wrong. About anything. Ever.

How did he waffle, troll? He stated be believed one thing, but that he will trust his advisor who believes another.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/01/27/trump-mattis-view-on-torture-will-override-his-own-beliefs.html


I don't necessarily agree. But I would tell you that he will override because I'm giving him that power. He's an expert," Trump said. He called Mattis a "general's general," whom he would rely upon.

[timosman]

Waffling yet again? Trump's positions, as presented by Zippy, on things are getting really hard to keep track of. Though he will never publicly admit to being wrong. About anything. Ever.

FTFY

[UWDude]

Waffling yet again? Trump's positions on things are getting really hard to keep track of. Though he will never publicly admit to being wrong. About anything. Ever.

Well if you cant bash him on deferring to his sec def pic's expertise on torture, you can bash him on "waffling".
Your commentary continues to dive deeper and deeper into the depths of unbridled idiocy.

[UWDude]

Crazy how many people who would have stood against torture during Ron Paul's campaign or during Obama's reign will now support it because there's a Republican as POTUS.

Gotta love Trump's logic here. "Our enemies, who recruit their peeps in part by portraying us as barbarians, chop off peoples' heads and torture them. Why do I want to be take the moral high ground? I say we torture harder!"

Sermon on the Mount doesn't apply to Trump, despite the fact that he somehow got the Christian vote...

Are you happy now, he is referring to Mattis, who says torture doesn't work.


Did I misread here, or are there people on this forum saying torture is OK?

You misread, and now, the point is moot, Trump is letting Mattis handle it, and Mattis says torture does't work.


Watching pro liberty trumpeters try to spin this one. Actually it should be entertaining.

Looks like any possibility of your entertainment was taken from you.
Now for the fun part, seeing the #nevertrumpers try and slam Trump for saying he won't torture.
Zippy has already called it "waffling". What grand critique can you think of?

[LibertyEagle]

They start out with Trump. Basically he says that he feels it works, and others believe that it works, and he will do "everything within the bounds of what you are allowed to do legally". He also says that he will rely on the console of Pompeo and Mattis.

As Rand points out, it is against the law right now, and Executive Orders do not supercede law.

Those who believe that torture works have been brainwashed by Hollywood and neocons who constantly push hypothetical fantasies about how it works in a "ticking time bomb" scenario. It should be noted that even many of the supporters of torture use the caveat of only in that extreme hypothetical, but not as a standard practice. Certainly not "yes, absolutely it works" as Trump is saying.

Oliver North was on FOX tonight talking about how it DID work.

Just passing on info. Not for torture.

[timosman]

Oliver North was on FOX tonight talking about how it DID work.

Just passing on info. Not for torture.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncf4SZqkcH0

[Brian4Liberty]

Oliver North was on FOX tonight talking about how it DID work.

Just passing on info. Not for torture.

Not surprised. No doubt he was involved in lots of torture during his years as an international criminal.

[timosman]

Not surprised. No doubt he was involved in lots of torture during his years as an international criminal.

He openly admits that during the interview.

[CaptainAmerica]

the CIA......what a group of degenerate nazis

[ThePaleoLibertarian]

You are somewhat limited in your thinking so let me help you. Imagine being tortured for an information you do not have. What would happen? What information would you make up in order to stop being tortured? Maybe you would just suffer in silence?:eek:

Except it's not. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/dec/09/senate-committee-cia-torture-does-not-work
By "factual claim" I mean a claim having to do with a factual state of affairs, not necessarily a claim that is, itself, factually accurate.

If you take a blowtorch to an innocent person, they're going to do say they have to in order to make it stop, which gets you bad information. If you take a blowtorch to someone with information you want, you'll get that information. It makes no sense to, on the one hand, say that people will say anything to get the torture to stop, but on the other hand say that torturing the right people doesn't get results.

People will say anything to stop it, but that includes the truth.

[timosman]

By "factual claim" I mean a claim having to do with a factual state of affairs, not necessarily a claim that is, itself, factually accurate.

If you take a blowtorch to an innocent person, they're going to do say they have to in order to make it stop, which gets you bad information. If you take a blowtorch to someone with information you want, you'll get that information. It makes no sense to, on the one hand, say that people will say anything to get the torture to stop, but on the other hand say that torturing the right people doesn't get results.

People will say anything to stop it, but that includes the truth.

And how do you distinguish which case you are dealing with at the moment? Are you a clairvoyant? Or just a sick psycho?

[ThePaleoLibertarian]

And how do you distinguish which case you are dealing with at the moment? Are you a clairvoyant? Or just a sick psycho?
That's why torture should be illegal and only used in actual ticking time bomb scenarios, which are very rare. The application of it is a separate question from whether or not it can work.

[timosman]

That's why torture should be illegal and only used in actual ticking time bomb scenarios, which are very rare. The application of it is a separate question from whether or not it can work.

Somebody backpedalling! Welcome back, brother!:D

[CPUd]

That's why torture should be illegal and only used in actual ticking time bomb scenarios, which are very rare. The application of it is a separate question from whether or not it can work.

Yes these are rare events, like when they captured the wife of the Marathon bomber. People were afraid and they didn't know if there were more bombs, they had no choice!

[timosman]

Yes these are rare events, like when they captured the wife of the Marathon bomber. People were afraid and they didn't know if there were more bombs, they had no choice!

You are so right CPUd!;)

[TheCount]

That's why torture should be illegal and only used in actual ticking time bomb scenarios, which are very rare. The application of it is a separate question from whether or not it can work.In a ticking time bomb scenario the torturee only has to lie once and you will exhaust all remaining time before the bomb explodes either acting on his lie or trying to verify it.

[eleganz]

Well Trump has deferred torture policy to Mattis so thats good and a respectable decision.

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2017/01/27/trump-defer-mattis-keeping-torture-ban.html

[jmdrake]

Trump remains, to me anyway, very much of a mixed bag: a real life version of Bertie Bott's Every Flavour Beans.

Just as likely to get cherry or chocolate as ear wax or vomit.

Over the past few days I've been very impressed with some things, and highly suspect of others, such as this, or his CIA pick, or the cop statement.

At least there's something there rather than a limp and weaksauce continuation of the status quo.

So, me, personally, I guess I have no choice but to soldier on, support him on the many issues we agree and oppose on issues like this.

+rep And this is a mature attitude. FTR I liked at least two things Obama did. (Getting us out of Iraq before the republichumps other than Rand Paul and Ted Cruz wanted us to. Letting schools opt out of no child left behind.) Maybe this forum can have rational discussions about Trump now that he's actually president.

[jmdrake]

Strategically if Trump's intention is to eliminate Islamist extremists then he should represent strength and instill fear about being caught.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B-CdSuFZj1s

Yeah because that sooooo worked when Bush tried it. :rolleyes: You don't instill fear by torture. You instill more hate and a greater desire for revenge. And if your desire is to instill fear it's not going to work by limiting torture to the few "really really bad guys" you happen to catch. To instill fear you have to rape and kill women and butcher babies. Are you ready for that?

[jmdrake]

Oliver North was on FOX tonight talking about how it DID work.

Just passing on info. Not for torture.

Cause Oliver North is sooooo trustworthy. :rolleyes:

[jmdrake]

"Torture works" is a factual claim. Whether it's ethical to use torture or not is a different matter, but I'd agree with the statement no matter who said it.

Bush used torture. The torture done at Abu Grahib most likely produced more terrorists. So yes, torture does work. The question is to what end? If you want more terrorism, by all means use torture.

[jmdrake]

Are you happy now, he is referring to Mattis, who says torture doesn't work.



You misread, and now, the point is moot, Trump is letting Mattis handle it, and Mattis says torture does't work.


Looks like any possibility of your entertainment was taken from you.
Now for the fun part, seeing the #nevertrumpers try and slam Trump for saying he won't torture.
Zippy has already called it "waffling". What grand critique can you think of?

Let's see. So far I've heard "Well Trump is right. Torture does work." and "Well let's just use it for the (neocon propaganda inspired) ticking time bomb scenario" and "If Trump wants to instill fear into the jihadists then torture is a good idea because....Hollywood movies" and "Trump tweeted a sort of kind of anti torture tweet after putting up his pro torture trial balloon and seeing it smacked down by Rand Paul and others so.....everything is okay." It's been even more entertaining then I predicted. Thank you for the laughs.

[jmdrake]

Well Trump has deferred torture policy to Mattis so thats good and a respectable decision.

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2017/01/27/trump-defer-mattis-keeping-torture-ban.html

A good and responsible decision would have been running it by someone like Mattis before making a public pronouncement about it. He put up a trial balloon, saw it smacked down, then back peddled. I'm glad he back peddled but getting your advice after you speak is not good leadership.

[silverhandorder]

Waffling yet again? Trump's positions on things are getting really hard to keep track of. Though he will never publicly admit to being wrong. About anything. Ever.

For liberal communist parasites such as your self. But for enlightened Trump supporters we are on the same page with the god emperor.

[Schifference]

Yeah because that sooooo worked when Bush tried it. :rolleyes: You don't instill fear by torture. You instill more hate and a greater desire for revenge. And if your desire is to instill fear it's not going to work by limiting torture to the few "really really bad guys" you happen to catch. To instill fear you have to rape and kill women and butcher babies. Are you ready for that?
Sure. I am good with that! So long as somebody else is doing the torture for me. Women, babies sure! Why should they have any special rights? Women have wanted equality forever. Whatever Trump can do to reign in terror is okay with me! If he is going to utilize torture, I would expect it would be the best torture ever. Furthermore, I would think that the people that do the torture would be beautiful, incredible, people.

[UWDude]

A good and responsible decision would have been running it by someone like Mattis before making a public pronouncement about it. He put up a trial balloon, saw it smacked down, then back peddled. I'm glad he back peddled but getting your advice after you speak is not good leadership.

See! I knew you would come up with some lame-ass crap.


What grand critique can you think of?

And you had all that time too. I am so not impressed. Try harder next time.

[timosman]

A good and responsible decision would have been running it by someone like Mattis before making a public pronouncement about it. He put up a trial balloon, saw it smacked down, then back peddled. I'm glad he back peddled but getting your advice after you speak is not good leadership.

It is brilliant actually. No obstacles for Mattis now. :cool:

[timosman]

For liberal communist parasites such as your self. But for enlightened Trump supporters we are on the same page with the god emperor.

God emperor. :rolleyes:

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

[9 years of nonsense on RPF]

For liberal communist parasites such as your self.


This is what you use to eliminate parasites in an animal:

http://renewlife.coventuremedia.netdna-cdn.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/c/l/cle-parasmart-main.png






This is what you use to eliminate parasites on a forum:


http://www.black-cat-driving.com/ESW/Images/red_bar_vertical.JPG






If people just give it a try, it really would work.

[jmdrake]

See! I knew you would come up with some lame-ass crap.

LOL. I knew you would come up with a non response and like an idiot think you actually said something.

[jmdrake]

It is brilliant actually. No obstacles for Mattis now. :cool:

No obstacles now for Mattis to do what exactly? :rolleyes:

[timosman]

No obstacles now for Mattis to do what exactly? :rolleyes:

Not to torture anybody.

[Zippyjuan]

Trump was for it- until he found out everybody else including his Generals were against it (and that it is a violation of US law).

[jmdrake]

Not to torture anybody.

Ummmm....huh? So Trump needed to say torture works so that Mattis could not torture people?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TM-G0bkl8MQ

Next you're going to tell me that Trump's "Grab em by the pussy" comment was meant to prevent sexual assault.

[timosman]

Next you're going to tell me that Trump's "Grab em by the pussy" comment was meant to prevent sexual assault.

Thank you for bringing this up. I hope there is an investigation into how leaking this information was an attempt to influence the election. :eek:

[nikcers]

Thank you for bringing this up. I hope there is an investigation into how leaking this information was an attempt to influence the election. :eek:

a while ago a poll came out that said Trump supporters like Russia. The establishment freaked out and has been freaking out ever since. They want to be able to obliterate them and not have a political fallout. They even gloated about their new poll the other day that said even the Trump supporters don't like Russia now.