Problem with healthcare issue

[oceansixtyone]

I have recently decided to support Ron Paul and will donate money on Dec 16. After much research I have found out that Ron Paul is the best candidate out there. He is much better than Kucinich, especially with regard to the closing the boarder. I agree with Ron Paul on almost every issue except 2. One is abortion, I am pro-choice, however it is not so important so I will skip that. The major one is health care. I think that it is a right for all members of a society to have access to free universal health care. If we close the boarder with a fence to stop illegal immigration and stop the war you would think that the nation could afford universal coverage.

This is the ONLY issue that I am having trouble with. Everything else looks good and Ron Paul will get my vote. However do any of you have the same problem with this ONE issue? I have read some of what Dr. Paul has written on the issue and would like some recommendations on what else is written on the issue so I can understand it better.

[forsmant]

I'm sorry but I can't afford to pay for your health care.

[0zzy]

The problem with Universal Health Care is that it assumes that the government can give a better product to people than the free market and puts a tax on everyone's life.

What we have now is not true free market, we have managed healthcare. Insurance companies and the government have gotten too involved and the doctor-patient relationship has been diminished.

What Paul wants is to have it like we did before, were healthcare was cheaper and hospitals were able to have charity.

Universal Health Care = VA Hospitals, which are horrible. Even in Canada people wait to death because everyone gets in line with no worries about the cost.

Healthcare isn't a "right", because it must take away the rights of another.

[0zzy]

I'm sorry but I can't afford to pay for your health care.

Not the most convincing statement I've heard on the subject.

[user]

I have recently decided to support Ron Paul and will donate money on Dec 16. After much research I have found out that Ron Paul is the best candidate out there. He is much better than Kucinich, especially with regard to the closing the boarder. I agree with Ron Paul on almost every issue except 2. One is abortion, I am pro-choice, however it is not so important so I will skip that. The major one is health care. I think that it is a right for all members of a society to have access to free universal health care. If we close the boarder with a fence to stop illegal immigration and stop the war you would think that the nation could afford universal coverage.

This is the ONLY issue that I am having trouble with. Everything else looks good and Ron Paul will get my vote. However do any of you have the same problem with this ONE issue? I have read some of what Dr. Paul has written on the issue and would like some recommendations on what else is written on the issue so I can understand it better.
A lot of us disagree with Ron Paul on abortion, but he just wants to return it to the states, not force his view on everyone.

As for health care, maybe someone else will explain about negative and positive rights, but my guess is you are not a libertarian anyway so I'll skip that for now. My basic argument would be that government health care keeps costs up, by restricting the supply of goods and services and subsidizing the pharmaceutical industry. Freedom in health care, which is not what we have today (HMOs exist because of the government) would drive health care costs down continuously, so more and more people could afford better health care.

So this is a case of something that sounds good (universal health care) not actually being as good in reality as freedom.

[forsmant]

Not the most convincing statement I've heard on the subject.

I wasn't trying to convince anybody. Just stating a fact.

[user]

Missing from the poll is, "I disagree on one or a few issues other than health care with Ron Paul, and will still vote for him."

[shadowhooch]

1) Over 1/2 of Federal spending is currently being spent on Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security. As you know, Medicare and Medicaid only cover a fraction of the population and those in DC are saying we can't continue to afford Social Security. Can you imagine how much more money the government will have to tax us in order to fund healthcare for every single American? The costs would be astronomical.

2) That being said, name 1 government program that is run efficiently.

3) Finally, did you know that government intervention is what caused our current healthcare system. That's right. HMO's, which are simply a middleman between you and your doctor (driving up costs), were spawned by government leglislation in the 1970s. Government legislation also created this illogical coupling between employment and having healthcare.

All we are saying, is give freedom a chance!;)

[Ron Paul Fan]

I don't disagree with Ron Paul on abortion. Life begins at conception and abortion is murder. The states should decide how to deal with that issue like they do with other murder charges. I don't disagree with Ron Paul on health care either. If you like Ron Paul's message of freedom then why would you want to let the government run the health care business? Shadow is right! We can't afford it, we want low taxes, and we want to take care of ourselves!

[Seanmc30]

I was talking to some people last night (who represent the drug companies) about the insurance industry and health care.


The big problem here in the south is that illegal aliens are flocking to the hospitals by the thousands...some hospitals have almost had to close their doors because of the loss of funds. The question, in many cases, is a moral one....can a hospital/ambulance leave you bleeding on the road or deliver your baby if you have no insurance or cant pay your bill? the answer is most certainly no.

The question is: how we draw that line? If we stop giving out the incentives to live here (that are not related to health care) that's one thing....but if we start simply ignoring and turning away injured people by the thousands, we are going to have a massive human rights problem on our hands.

There does not seem to be an easy answer, but I am still certain that I don't want the federal Gov. anywhere near my health care...look at the shambles their regulation has left us already....not to mention the condition of the Veterans hospitals.

[pcosmar]

We have a lot of Canadians coming over here for medical care because Universal Health Care SUCKS.
I don't see a lot of people lining up for Cuban Health care either.
They Come Here.

[oceansixtyone]

Thank you all for the responses to my topic


I'm sorry but I can't afford to pay for your health care.

Even if we had socialized medicine you would not pay much for me, however,

I was depressed today after going to the grocery store and seeing what other people are buying as food. Refined carbohydrates, processed hydrogenated oils, refined sugars, high fructose corn syrups. Etc. It is no wonder that after eating this crap for many years the result is chronic disease. Add to this fact that many people I see at my workplace do no exercise what so ever.

My grandfather is a doctor specializing in the treatment of high blood pressure. Over many years he found out that drugs that treat the condition often make things worse. The financial cost is also high. And most importantly he found that, diet and exercise will almost always prevent and eliminate high blood pressure.

Scientific field work shows that primitive cultures who eat no processed food have few health problems, in comparison when they become industrialized they eat modern processed foods and get cancer and high blood pressure etc. in rates similar to others in the same environment regardless of race. I now believe that bad lifestyle is the cause of almost all expensive chronic disease.

This is why I eat mostly vegetables, fruits and organic meats and fish. Kind of like a cave man’s diet. Only adding to this some whole grains to the mix. Avoiding most processed food and restaurant fare. I also work out at the gym and run 3 times a week.

There must be enough charity or something to take care of those basket cases who don’t care about health and let their bodies fall apart.

[user]

Thank you all for the responses to my topic



Even if we had socialized medicine you would not pay much for me, however,

I was depressed today after going to the grocery store and seeing what other people are buying as food. Refined carbohydrates, processed hydrogenated oils, refined sugars, high fructose corn syrups. Etc. It is no wonder that after eating this crap for many years the result is chronic disease. Add to this fact that many people I see at my workplace do no exercise what so ever.

My grandfather is a doctor specializing in the treatment of high blood pressure. Over many years he found out that drugs that treat the condition often make things worse. The financial cost is also high. And most importantly he found that, diet and exercise will almost always prevent and eliminate high blood pressure.

Scientific field work shows that primitive cultures who eat no processed food have few health problems, in comparison when they become industrialized they eat modern processed foods and get cancer and high blood pressure etc. in rates similar to others in the same environment regardless of race. I now believe that bad lifestyle is the cause of almost all expensive chronic disease.

This is why I eat mostly vegetables, fruits and organic meats and fish. Kind of like a cave man’s diet. Only adding to this some whole grains to the mix. Avoiding most processed food and restaurant fare. I also work out at the gym and run 3 times a week.

There must enough charity or something to take care of those basket cases who don’t care about health and let their bodies fall apart.
What you've brought up is a great argument against socialized medicine. Remember, when you subsidize something, you get more of it. If you lessen the consequences of bad health habits, more people will be in worse health.

By the way, the stupid corn subsidies are the reason we Americans eat so much high fructose corn syrup. We should end the subsidies to help put a stop to that. Unfortunately, Iowa is the first stop during primary season.

[murrayrothbard]

I was depressed today after going to the grocery store and seeing what other people are buying as food. Refined carbohydrates, processed hydrogenated oils, refined sugars, high fructose corn syrups. Etc. It is no wonder that after eating this crap for many years the result is chronic disease. Add to this fact that many people I see at my workplace do no exercise what so ever.
There must be enough charity or something to take care of those basket cases who don’t care about health and let their bodies fall apart.

I do realize that my subsidizing health care for these people, and thus removing any incentive to take responsibility for their choices, the effect is to encourage this type of behavior. What someone chooses to put in their body, or whatever other lifestyle choice they make, is NOT my responsibility and it is NOT yours. It is THEIRS and theirs alone. **harsh reality check** => nature is self-correcting.

[oceansixtyone]

By the way, the stupid corn subsidies are the reason we Americans eat so much high fructose corn syrup. We should end the subsidies to help put a stop to that. Unfortunately, Iowa is the first stop during primary season.

reminds me of a discussion I had with a medical researcher about high fructose corn syrup. If I remember correctly, in lab rats it appears to be even more deadly than refined white sugar. causing faster obesity and kidney problems. I am guessing this is a cause of the current US diabetes epidemic. notice that this happened after soft drink companies changed from white sugar to high fructose corn syrup in the 1980's

[Richandler]

We can't even afford Medicare and Medicade. How they hell are they gonna provide universal health care.

[user]

reminds me of a discussion I had with a medical researcher about high fructose corn syrup. If I remember correctly, in lab rats it appears to be even more deadly than refined white sugar. causing faster obesity and kidney problems. I am guessing this is a cause of the current US diabetes epidemic. notice that this happened after soft drink companies changed from white sugar to high fructose corn syrup in the 1980's

Yes exactly. Our government at work!

[Zarxrax]

We already have universal health care. If you have a life threatening problem, you just go to the hospital. Can't pay it? That's ok, the taxpayers will do it for you.
What's really surprising to me, is that all of the people who actually pay for their health care haven't figured this out yet.

The main thing that wasn't really covered for a while was prescription drugs, but then bush and the other republicans decided to start subsidizing that.

[Man from La Mancha]

I don't want to pay for the costs of junk food addicts. People have a responsibility to take care of their health. If health insurance charged people according to their addictions that would help. For example a 100% non processed food eater $100/m insurance and for processed food eater $400/m, can be verified by blood tests for substances put in processed food, maybe lower rates for raw food eaters. Also no medical license, anybody should be able to practice medicine and any alternative medicine should be allowed. These can be rated by private consumer groups such as the Underwriters Lab or consumer reports. I don't need big brother telling me who the select few should be to make me healthy. By having a free market the health costs would probably go down 10 times, thus everybody can now afford the $75/m health insurance.

.

[user]

Yes, end the AMA monopoly.

[noxagol]

People do not have the right to medical care. How do you get medical care? Someone agrees to provide it, thus it requires the permission of another, and if you need permission, it is a privilege and not a right. Rights need no permission to be exersized.

I don't care how advanced or prosperous a society is, health care will never be a right.

[bgoldwater]

I believe there is a role and need for government to provide basic health care for the most needy.

[tsetsefly]

My vote went to agree with all, by mistake, i disagree on many issues but will still vote for him, its no tmany but some important ones, abortion etc.

[noxagol]

I believe there is a role and need for government to provide basic health care for the most needy.

I disagree. If a society is truly advanced and prosperous, the needy will be able to seek charities that will facilitate their medical care. Despite the rumors, we are not a truly advanced and prosperous society, namely due to the government trying to take care of us. That money would be put to far better use through free market health care.

[BillyBeer]

You are never gonna find a Presidentail candidate who lines up with your views on everything. I agree with Ron Paul on many important issues, but disagree with him strongly on trade for example.

What is rare in todays age is finding a serious Presidential candidate who has honesty and integrity. Ron Paul possesses both of those virtues.

[BillyBeer]

I believe there is a role and need for government to provide basic health care for the most needy.

and your name is bgoldwater? :confused:

[murrayrothbard]

To all advocates of universal/national/socialized/whatever medicine: If 'health care' (how is this defined) is a right than please stop advocating that the government get involved. Cut out the middle man! If I have the right to "health care" than it should be entirely legitimate for me to enforce it myself. Please advocate the more direct approach. Tell me I can go to my neighbor's house and rob him at gun point so I may pay someone to make me healthy. Or tell me I can head over to my other neighbor's house, put my gun to his head, and demand that he heal me. It's my right is it not?

[user]

and your name is bgoldwater? :confused:
You noticed that too? :D