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Suzanimal
11-25-2016, 06:51 PM
Published on Nov 25, 2016
Justin Raimondo, editorial director of Antiwar.com, joins Jeff for a great discussion of what Trump's election really means for libertarians. Does 2016 mark the end of globalism's inevitability, or are Brexit and Trump mere speed bumps for progressive elites? Does Trump represent a real threat to the War Party, or will he succumb to neoconservative control over foreign policy? What are the best-case and worst-case scenarios for libertarians in the first year of a Trump administration, and will his cabinet picks contain any happy surprises?

Nobody is better suited to untangle the Trump uprising than the no-holds barred Mr. Raimondo. Stay tuned.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVqhe_KWBaY


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVqhe_KWBaY

goldenequity
11-25-2016, 07:23 PM
Thnx 4 this and Hppy Thnxgvng to Mr. Animal. :)

Suzanimal
11-25-2016, 07:49 PM
Thnx 4 this and Hppy Thnxgvng to Mr. Animal. :)

You're welcome. I thought it was interesting. I'm not in complete agreement but I like to listen to the Mises Weekends shows and thought some here would enjoy it.

Poor Mr Animal couldn't even button his fat pants today. He sat there complaining about it whilst eating the last of the pecan pie and whipped cream. :D

TheCount
11-25-2016, 08:33 PM
Much like many on this forum, this video is entirely based upon reading extremely favorable motives into everything that Trump has done. I have a hard time swallowing the idea that he represents the return of the "old right" as someone said in the audio. Still not grasping what about him is conservative whatsoever.

helmuth_hubener
11-25-2016, 09:50 PM
Still not grasping what about him is conservative whatsoever. I think it's safe to say you yourself do not have a conservative temperament, TheCount. Yes? So you are not particularly well-suited to grasp it.

For me, if I were a conservative, it would be about winning. Conservatives have been Total Losers for half a century, probably a century, and maybe, actually, since Jacksonian times. Total. Complete. Utter. Losers. Nothing and I mean nothing that conservatives would have wanted and had in their agenda has been accomplished at the national level. So really, does it matter if Trump is a "conservative"? No. What matters is can he actually win? Can he succeed in getting through some part of the conservative agenda, unlike all the sad, total losers before him? That is the bet conservatives made with him, in my opinion, even though they didn't consciously put it that way. Long-shot though it might be.

Oh, and he's going to bring back "Merry Christmas"! :D Remember? You probably don't -- just another ridiculous thing Trump said, right?, but this is the kind of stuff conservatives really care about. And he gave them what they wanted, about a hundred times over.

TheCount
11-25-2016, 10:12 PM
I think it's safe to say you yourself do not have a conservative temperament, TheCount. Yes? So you are not particularly well-suited to grasp it.

:rolleyes:

If Trump is the judge of whether or not someone is conservative, then I guess I'm not.


For me, if I were a conservative, it would be about winning. Conservatives have been Total Losers for half a century, probably a century, and maybe, actually, since Jacksonian times. Total. Complete. Utter. Losers.

"Winning" by hanging a conservative label on a person who is not a conservative is not winning at all. All that has been accomplished is to convince a new generation that conservatism represents things that they do not agree with while appeasing people who will be dead three elections from now.



Nothing and I mean nothing that conservatives would have wanted and had in their agenda has been accomplished at the national level. So really, does it matter if Trump is a "conservative"? No. What matters is can he actually win? Can he succeed in getting through some part of the conservative agenda, unlike all the sad, total losers before him?

Which part of the conservative agenda? What part of his agenda, exactly, is conservative?



Oh, and he's going to bring back "Merry Christmas"! :D Remember? You probably don't -- just another ridiculous thing Trump said, right?, but this is the kind of stuff conservatives really care about.

Anyone who is emotionally involved in the exact nature of holiday greeting they receive from an employee at a chain store is a complete and utter moron.

helmuth_hubener
11-26-2016, 11:08 AM
:rolleyes:

If Trump is the judge of whether or not someone is conservative, then I guess I'm not. He is not! Indeed, my guess would be he is not particularly conservative politically, although personally he does have "conservative" (probably better and less ambiguously called "right-pattern") temperament elements he has inherited or had injected into him. Namely: he doesn't smoke, drink, or do drugs, and to all accounts never has, not even once. Conservative. He was brought up in military boarding school. Conservative.

So temperamentally he has some right, but probably just as much left.



"Winning" by hanging a conservative label on a person who is not a conservative is not winning at all. Again, you yourself do not care about conservativism and are not conservative (correct me if I'm wrong!), so this is a bit of crocodile tears, yes? I mean, who cares if conservatives win? Not you!

But they do care, you'd better believe. And, again, my assessment is that they were and are perfectly aware of all Mr. Trump's flaws, and nevertheless made the bet that he could do something for them. They know he's not really one of them. But they already elected one of their own, a bonafide Evangelical, G.W. Bush, and what did they get from that? Nothing, except embarrassment. Been there, done that.

They've been losing for their whole lives. They have lost every battle, on every front. Every major institution in this country despises conservatives. They are foreigners in their own country. At this point, it really doesn't matter to them if Trump is a conservative or not. What matters to conservatives, again this is just my opinion, I could be wrong, but I think what matters to them is actually getting through some conservative victories. The deep, innermost thoughts of the President don't really matter to anyone except him, and perhaps his loved ones. Just get the job done. That's the attitude.

Pretty practical, actually.


Which part of the conservative agenda? What part of his agenda, exactly, is conservative?Here's three:

• Paying off the national debt by selling off federal assets
• Putting a freeze on all regulations and starting a process of repealing existing ones.
• Nominating conservative justices to the Supreme Court of Last Resort.


Anyone who is emotionally involved in the exact nature of holiday greeting they receive from an employee at a chain store is a complete and utter moron. People of left temperament do generally feel that people of right temperament are utter morons. You have total contempt for them. Natural! But let me assure you that these people do exist, and while their average IQ is indeed lower than the average IQ of the left (the difference is slight), they are the ones who grow your food, deliver your insulin, and maintain your electrical system. You need them.

helmuth_hubener
11-26-2016, 11:13 AM
Also, as a note, I have not listened to the video in the OP and do not know if I agree with it.

I am just responding in the spirit of helpfulness to TheCount's confusion and query -- whether sincere or not -- as to why conservatives back Donald Trump, when he cannot understand nor fathom any possible reason for such backing. I think I have at least some small understanding of that reason that I can offer.

Brian4Liberty
11-26-2016, 11:58 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVqhe_KWBaY


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVqhe_KWBaY

Thanks. Interesting interview. Raimondo definitely doesn't hold back. They break down the liberty movement in a couple of ways. Cato libertarians vs. Ron Paul libertarians. Globalist libertarians vs. American libertarians. Same old battles that have been going on for a long time.

TheCount
11-26-2016, 01:27 PM
(probably better and less ambiguously called "right-pattern") temperament elements he has inherited or had injected into him. Namely: he doesn't smoke, drink, or do drugs, and to all accounts never has, not even once. Conservative. He was brought up in military boarding school. Conservative.

These are conservative in the same way that Christmas trees are Christian.



So temperamentally he has some right, but probably just as much left.

Rather than examining his actual policy suggestions, we're going to guess at how conservative he is based on unrelated personality traits? I can see the rest of this discussion going downhill already.



Again, you yourself do not care about conservativism and are not conservative (correct me if I'm wrong!)

You're wrong.



They've been losing for their whole lives. They have lost every battle, on every front.

Part of which being that they, like you, are more invested in the trappings of conservatism rather than conservatism itself, so that when they think they've finally elected someone who is conservative, they soon realize that this is not the case. They are simply repeating the pattern which has ensured that they lose even when they "win." This is nothing new.



• Paying off the national debt by selling off federal assets

Neither will happen. This is a man who has very flatly stated his intention to borrow whatever sum of money is necessary to fund the programs which he thinks are necessary, and has gone so far as to say that it is to the country's advantage to take on as much debt as possible while the interest rates are low.


• Putting a freeze on all regulations and starting a process of repealing existing ones.

This is possible, though we will need to see the nature of the individuals he appoints to heads of the offending agencies. If they are lobbyists, then we will simply trade one set of regulations for another.


• Nominating conservative justices to the Supreme Court of Last Resort.

Will his 'conservative' judges be as conservative as the rest of his appointments? Not looking great so far.


I notice that the points you're suggesting are his conservative high points are not anywhere near the top of his administration's priorities...

enhanced_deficit
11-26-2016, 01:45 PM
Still not grasping what about him is conservative whatsoever.

For the conservative base, these days it doesn't get any more "conservative" than this:


http://static4.businessinsider.com/image/502d3a4769bedd2b48000003/donald-trump-tweet.png
http://lybio.net/wp-content/uploads/Donald-Trump-Says-Clinton-Created-ISIS-With-Obama.jpg



Thanks to his crafty messaging, he was perceived as better defender of "conservative values" than all the alternatives, rest is history.

helmuth_hubener
11-26-2016, 04:46 PM
You're wrong. So you are a conservative? You consider yourself a conservative?

Well then I stand corrected! I have a certain general impression of you from our interactions over the years, and it was not conservative! Mostly it was as a heckler / jokester, of course, but I thought that it seemed you gave our right-leaning eccentricities more jeering than our left-leaning ones. My mistake, and thank you for correcting me!

So, just plain conservative, or libertarian-conservative?





Part of which being that they, like you, are more invested in the trappings of conservatism rather than conservatism itself, I think you have fundamentally misunderstood my posts. I Do not think that President Trump is going to somehow single-handedly bring back "Merry Christmas"! How -- executive order?:D I do not expect him to pay off the national debt. I do not really expect anything, necessarily! Please, please try to keep in mind that I don't control any of this. I had nothing to do with it! Don't blame the Helmuth!

I try to focus on things that I *can* control.

My post, as I said, was just by way of helpful explanation of my theory of how Trump won over (most) conservatives. But you need no such explanation, being a staunch conservative yourself. So, again, my misunderstanding!

kpitcher
11-26-2016, 05:45 PM
• Paying off the national debt by selling off federal assets
• Putting a freeze on all regulations and starting a process of repealing existing ones.



I'm hoping these are not part of the agenda that passes as it appears to be a way for the elites to rape and pillage the country.

Paying off the debt by selling assets, without actually balancing the budget is a short term stopgap and an easy transfer of wealth. I'm sure the Saudis will want to buy a lot more land, oil CEOs strip mining and fracking regardless of harm to others water, etc etc. Also Trump has repeatedly said he's going to rebuild the Military which sounds like more spending which is even harder on a budget, military industrial complex much?

Repealing all regulations, even the good ones, is a boon for big business too.

I've grown up in small business, putting people to work is a good thing. However I've also seen how some businesses can squash the little guy in unethical ways or by using their leverage with politicians to their favor.

nikcers
11-26-2016, 05:58 PM
So, just plain conservative, or libertarian-conservative?
There are two types of conservatives, real conservatives and fake conservatives. You can go ahead and guess what kind Trump is.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrWyZVdOsbE

Dr.3D
11-26-2016, 06:06 PM
People of left temperament do generally feel that people of right temperament are utter morons. You have total contempt for them. Natural! But let me assure you that these people do exist, and while their average IQ is indeed lower than the average IQ of the left (the difference is slight), they are the ones who grow your food, deliver your insulin, and maintain your electrical system. You need them.
Education ≠ Smart
Uneducated ≠ Stupid

It takes money to send a person to college. That is the biggest difference. Some folks found out they can make a pretty darned good living without the need of a college degree and the associated debt.

juleswin
11-26-2016, 06:50 PM
There are two types of conservatives, real conservatives and fake conservatives. You can go ahead and guess what kind Trump is.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrWyZVdOsbE

Who cares about policies or someone being conservative? We got a winner in Trump, he beat Hillary and in this new era, that is all that matters.

helmuth_hubener
11-26-2016, 07:34 PM
There are two types of conservatives, real conservatives and fake conservatives. You can go ahead and guess what kind Trump is.

As I already told TheCount, my guess is that he's not particularly conservative at all, polically. Not fake, not real, just not.

Are *you* a fake conservative or a real conservative, NiKKKers?

TheCount
11-27-2016, 02:26 AM
So you are a conservative? You consider yourself a conservative?

I don't consider myself a conservative, as I abhor identity politics. I've no need of club or cultural membership, which is also why I feel no need to toe a particular line here. Generally speaking, my political viewpoints are conservative when it comes to governmental and fiscal matters, and more 'it's not my business if it doesn't affect me' when it comes to cultural matters. Call that whatever you will.


I thought that it seemed you gave our right-leaning eccentricities more jeering than our left-leaning ones.

Oh, this is definitely true, for the same reason that I mock Trump more than I mock Hillary here: There's no sense preaching to the choir. Also, the 'left-leaning eccentricities' here are mostly 'get government out of people's lives' types of things, which I agree with and don't think of as particularly 'left.' They're only leftist in terms of the culture wars nonsense that has replaced actual politics in the United States.



My post, as I said, was just by way of helpful explanation of my theory of how Trump won over (most) conservatives. But you need no such explanation, being a staunch conservative yourself. So, again, my misunderstanding!

Trump didn't win over conservatives, that much is obvious by the terrible number of votes that he got. The election was a referendum on Hillary and the sorts of things that she stands for.

GunnyFreedom
11-27-2016, 02:35 AM
I think it's safe to say you yourself do not have a conservative temperament, TheCount. Yes? So you are not particularly well-suited to grasp it.

For me, if I were a conservative, it would be about winning. Conservatives have been Total Losers for half a century, probably a century, and maybe, actually, since Jacksonian times. Total. Complete. Utter. Losers. Nothing and I mean nothing that conservatives would have wanted and had in their agenda has been accomplished at the national level. So really, does it matter if Trump is a "conservative"? No. What matters is can he actually win? Can he succeed in getting through some part of the conservative agenda, unlike all the sad, total losers before him? That is the bet conservatives made with him, in my opinion, even though they didn't consciously put it that way. Long-shot though it might be.

Oh, and he's going to bring back "Merry Christmas"! :D Remember? You probably don't -- just another ridiculous thing Trump said, right?, but this is the kind of stuff conservatives really care about. And he gave them what they wanted, about a hundred times over.

This....this is sarcasm, right?

CPUd
11-27-2016, 03:50 AM
Trump knows conservative talking points and positions, but he doesn't understand the reasoning behind them. Probably the biggest example of this was the "forum" he did with Chris Mathews where Matthews backed him into saying women should be punished for having abortions. Another biggie is pretty much everything he has said about health care.

The worst part is that he showed very little interest in learning this stuff during the campaign, so he is completely dependent on people like Mike Pence and Jeff Sessions to drive a conservative agenda.

TheCount
11-27-2016, 04:09 AM
This....this is sarcasm, right?I don't think it is.

osan
11-27-2016, 06:09 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVqhe_KWBaY


Not bad, but just as with most of the rest of this sort of fare there is too much assumption present. Raimondo does seem to limit his in some notable degree when compared with many others, but still speaks based on some excess. We as a people have gotten into some very bad habits.

Assume nothing. Take no grant of truth based on appearance or word, nor even action at this point. The man is not even sworn in. Give him rope aplenty. No matter what we feel or suspect, it will make little to no difference in terms of results from a Trump administration - certainly not at this early stage in the game. Pay it out in silence and see what he weaves. Time will come to make noise later, I suspect.

Another point to consider for the ultra-paranoid: It is not beyond plausibility that Trump was put in place as a sorting device for the purpose of separating those whom Theye would have identified as "troublesome". Float a Trump and see who comes forth. This is a rather outside possibility, but not beyond it. I mention it that people may be prepared in their minds for absolutely anything, including flying elephants.

But remain silent on the question of whether Trump is what he says/appears. If nothing else, consider it an exercise in the cultivation of self-control, and as a lesson in the virtue of wait/see patience. While we're at it, it's also a lesson in humility and in the practice of scientific method as well. :)

There is much to be gained by just sitting in wait, watching. There is much to be lost in running off, half-cocked.

I would finally add that for those who make big and presumptuous remarks about Trump, for or against, do so not only without validly demonstrated cause, but will have no valid basis for the "I told you so"s in the event their lousy prognostications come to pass. This is because the eventual correctness of their words cannot be causally linked to the outcomes without demonstration of the link between the original assertions and evidence available at the time. In other words, they just got lucky. So unless you can provide damning evidence of Trump's devilry or sainthood, your opinions on who he is and what he will ultimately bring to pass are naught more than hot air. Speak if you will, but it behooves you to temper your utterances and provide any assertions with abundant and valid support.

Theocrat
11-27-2016, 07:37 AM
It means that nothing is going to change with foreign policy, monetary/fiscal policy, nor domestic policy. All of you who supported Trump are going to be disappointed.

nikcers
11-27-2016, 12:19 PM
As I already told TheCount, my guess is that he's not particularly conservative at all, polically. Not fake, not real, just not.

Are *you* a fake conservative or a real conservative, NiKKKers?

This thread isn't about me, you're welcome to start one but I think it would be off topic in this subforum. Your double think sickens me to the core. There isn't a middle gray area to this, either Trump is filling his cabinet with people that want to expand CIA spying powers, bildabergers, anti-Iran Zionists, or he is a conservative. Its not both, its not splitting the difference. This is a flat out lie that you are propagating.

TheCount
11-27-2016, 02:34 PM
Your double think sickens me to the core. There isn't a middle gray area to this, either Trump is filling his cabinet with people that want to expand CIA spying powers, bildabergers, anti-Iran Zionists, or he is a conservative. Its not both, its not splitting the difference. This is a flat out lie that you are propagating.To certain people, all that is important is that "we" won. Any attempt to get these people to define who this "we" group of winners is, exactly, leads to an endless loop of circular reasoning. This leads me to one of two conclusions: Either the logic as to how exactly "we" won is incredibly poor, or they would rather not share exactly what sort of people won as a result of Trump's election.

AZJoe
11-27-2016, 04:52 PM
Repealing all regulations, even the good ones, is a boon for big business too.

Repealing the regulation is still a good thing. Yes repealing the the regulations can be a boon to some big business - those big businesses that do not rely on regulations to artificially provide a de facto monopoly keeping small competition and new startups out. For the most part, however, regulations merely protect big business from competition from small and new business.

In fact quite often big business is the lobbyist and author of regulations. For instance Enron was a tireless advocate for strict global energy regulations. Phillip Morris aggressively lobbied for heightened federal regulation of tobacco. General Motors provided critical support for the "clean air" regulations. All of theses regulations were to keep out competition from smaller rivals and raise the cost of entry to prevent any competition from new startups. With few if any exceptions, every significant introduction of government regulation, taxation, and spending has been to the benefit of some big business.


https://www.cato.org/policy-report/julyaugust-2006/big-business-big-government

otherone
11-27-2016, 05:46 PM
So, just plain conservative, or libertarian-conservative?


How about ronservative?

https://www.freedomsphoenix.com/Uploads/Graphics/522-0224154946-ronpaulwinkingwithdisclaimer.jpg

enhanced_deficit
11-27-2016, 07:25 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVqhe_KWBaY


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVqhe_KWBaY

Listened to this earlier, good points made there by JR.

H. E. Panqui
11-27-2016, 09:00 PM
helmuth opines: [Trump] doesn't smoke, drink, or do drugs, and to all accounts never has, not even once. Conservative. He was brought up in military boarding school. Conservative.

So temperamentally he has some right, but probably just as much left.

:cool:

...ime, many more people who identify as 'liberals' take MUCH better care of their bodies, have a better diet, etc. than your typical 'conservative republican,' who tends towards a horrible diet and morbid obesity...[and morbid goddamned foolishness]

...helmuth has his own unique definition of 'conservatism'...as do most/all 'conservatives'...confusion abounds in republicratdom...

...myself, i like to use a dictionary...where 'conservatives' are defined as 'people who want to preserve the status quo and existing institutions'...

...one problem is that many radio-republican fools consider themselves 'conservatives'...but what they really want is massive [and stooooooooooooooooopid] change in many areas of government...advocating for massive change and calling yourself 'conservative' is just plain ignorant, inane..

....ime, 'conservatives' really really suck...for one example, i've never met even one who honestly understands the hideous origin and nature of even one 'dollar' despite their holes frequently working as to the illion dollar economy...

...ime, the biggest group in 'the conservative tent' are the abortion prohibitionists...ime, abortion prohibitionists, like drug prohibitionists, etc., are consistently thoughtless...emotionally driven...easily misled...

helmuth_hubener
11-28-2016, 09:58 AM
This is a flat out lie that you are propagating.

Could you please state the lie that you have hallucinated into my posts and that you believe -- in all sincerity, I'm sure -- that I am "propagating"? Just put the lie in simple sentence form. That way those not quite so hallucinatory will be able to understand what's going on here.

Thanks!

helmuth_hubener
11-28-2016, 10:00 AM
How about ronservative?

https://www.freedomsphoenix.com/Uploads/Graphics/522-0224154946-ronpaulwinkingwithdisclaimer.jpg

Ahh yeah! :cool:

helmuth_hubener
11-28-2016, 10:33 AM
OK, Hank, I don't want you to feel totally left out, so I'll use your post to make two important, substantive points.

First, a sanity and reality injection; a little clean-up work on all the mud being thrown at me:

Hank, like niKKKers, and TheCount, wants to pin the blame for the election results and all the other problems which trouble him (/them) upon me. And upon "my kind," of course, to make my culpability more plausible. And to do this they must mentally hallucinate me into being a member of a group that I really am not a part of! Well fine, Hank does this for all RPFers, incessently blaming us for all "republicrat" evils and lumping us in with all the "republicrat fools" of this sad, forsaken world in which he dwells. Listening to people and accepting their honest differentiation and individuality is not his strong point. That Ron Paul supporters might be a little bit different than Bob Dole supporters and that perhaps not all the blame for the world's sorrows can be cast at our doorstep, that never enters into his brain.

Nor, apparently, does it enter into TheCount's brain that perhaps explaining how some people think is not the same as agreeing with how they think.

And of course nothing enters into niKKKer's brain, except how she's going to find another juicy batch of kids to kidnap and abuse by accusing their parents of starving them.

OK. On to the two points:


Helmuth has his own unique definition of 'conservatism'...as do most/all 'conservatives'

When most or all of a group define themselves in a particular way, if one wants to understand that group -- as opposed to simply hate, despise, and mentally spit on them -- perhaps one should take at least the smallest bit of consideration into those factors they consider important to defining themselves. Dive into their model of thinking.

To just say, well, they're just wrong, about everything, including the parameters of their own self-identified group and self-image?! That is not going to be a very enlightening nor productive scholarly path. What Egyptologist takes the position: "Egyptians were stupid. End of story."? How about a bacteriologist: "Bacteria are gross."

Anyway, Point #2 is that people do not vote based on policy. By and large. They don't. Now by and large, we on RPF maybe do (maybe!). But we aren't most. Fact is, people do not vote based on policy. People vote based on a complex lattice of psychological factors. People vote in a way that allows them to stay loyal to their self-image and to be the hero of the movie playing in their head.

In short:

Politics isn't just about policy. It's about other things. And it's largely about temperament.

Even if TheCount thinks that's utterly moronic. ;) Moronic, maybe, but true! Fact is, he too is ruled largely by emotion and psychology. He just doesn't know it.

helmuth_hubener
11-28-2016, 10:44 AM
I think it's safe to say you yourself do not have a conservative temperament, TheCount. Yes? So you are not particularly well-suited to grasp it.

For me, if I were a conservative, it would be about winning. Conservatives have been Total Losers for half a century, probably a century, and maybe, actually, since Jacksonian times. Total. Complete. Utter. Losers. Nothing and I mean nothing that conservatives would have wanted and had in their agenda has been accomplished at the national level. So really, does it matter if Trump is a "conservative"? No. What matters is can he actually win? Can he succeed in getting through some part of the conservative agenda, unlike all the sad, total losers before him? That is the bet conservatives made with him, in my opinion, even though they didn't consciously put it that way. Long-shot though it might be.

Oh, and he's going to bring back "Merry Christmas"! :D Remember? You probably don't -- just another ridiculous thing Trump said, right?, but this is the kind of stuff conservatives really care about. And he gave them what they wanted, about a hundred times over.This....this is sarcasm, right? The big ":D" face should have helped you! Eh?

Look, TheCount was asking how conservatives could possibly support this guy, and I was simply offering my own speculation on how that occurred. I was not saying this was nor is my thinking. It is theirs, and probably not consciously at that. I was explaining, not agreeing. Is that OK? It is pretty undeniable (though TheCount has now denied it in this thread! :rolleyes:) that Trump did, in fact, win over the vast, vast majority of voters who consider themselves conservative to vote for him. 90-some percent, IIRC. He did it somehow. Do you have any idea how? I do.

My model fits reality pretty well. It certainly predicted it very well, which, scientifically, is a good indicator.

TheCount
11-28-2016, 11:51 AM
It is pretty undeniable (though TheCount has now denied it in this thread! :rolleyes:) that Trump did, in fact, win over the vast, vast majority of voters who consider themselves conservative to vote for him. 90-some percent, IIRC.

This, in combination with your previous posts, requires a Mobius strip of logic: Trump is conservative because conservatives voted for him, and people who voted for Trump are conservative by virtue of voting for Trump.


Neither is true.

helmuth_hubener
11-28-2016, 12:02 PM
This, in combination with your previous posts, requires a Mobius strip of logic: Trump is conservative because conservatives voted for him, and people who voted for Trump are conservative by virtue of voting for Trump.


Neither is true.
Your hallucination is noted.

juleswin
11-28-2016, 12:13 PM
Your hallucination is noted.

I have been following this conversion from the start and forget about people hallucinating. How about u tell us all what is conservative about Trump. Not what his supporters say about him, just usually the policies he has promoted in the past and present.

helmuth_hubener
11-28-2016, 12:25 PM
I have been following this conversion from the start and forget about people hallucinating. How about u tell us all what is conservative about Trump.

That's the hallucination.


Apparently you share it.


This will be the third time (at least) that I have said it in just this thread: I do not think Trump is particularly conservative politically.

So how could I "tell u all" how is he a conservative when I believe he is not?

This thread isn't that long. There aren't that many Helmuth posts in it. You couldn't possibly have missed this information. How, then, did this happen? Hallucination. Literally.

helmuth_hubener
11-28-2016, 12:38 PM
I thought that it seemed you gave our right-leaning eccentricities more jeering than our left-leaning ones.Oh, this is definitely true, for the same reason that I mock Trump more than I mock Hillary here: There's no sense preaching to the choir. Oh good, I wasn't going crazy! Thank you so much for your upfront response about that. I thought that every time there was a thread wherein Zippyjuan was on one side and, say tod evans was on the other (along with most of the rest of RPFs), you would be found on the same side as Zippyjuan, arguing his case.

On monetary policy and banking matters, for example -- an issue of particularly strong interest to me -- you are always strongly for Zippyjuan and strongly against me.

I'm not too sure what's conservative about fiat money and fractional reserves. Both seem dishonest and fraudulent to me. But that's just me.

juleswin
11-28-2016, 12:47 PM
That's the hallucination.


Apparently you share it.


This will be the third time (at least) that I have said it in just this thread: I do not think Trump is particularly conservative politically.

So how could I "tell u all" how is he a conservative when I believe he is not?

This thread isn't that long. There aren't that many Helmuth posts in it. You couldn't possibly have missed this information. How, then, did this happen? Hallucination. Literally.

Thanks for the reply. I don't know why I was expecting more from this paragraph.


He is not! Indeed, my guess would be he is not particularly conservative politically, although personally he does have "conservative" (probably better and less ambiguously called "right-pattern") temperament elements he has inherited or had injected into him. Namely: he doesn't smoke, drink, or do drugs, and to all accounts never has, not even once. Conservative. He was brought up in military boarding school. Conservative.

I think I must have missed the personally and temperment. Then again, I would think he is more liberal than conservative even in his personal life. For one he curses a lot, is a womanizer, has multiple children with multiple women(that he takes care of), not religious, pals around with lowlifes and corrupt to the gill people and does business with low moral characters.

Btw, smoking and drinking is not a conservative trait, I would grant you the doing of drugs. But just about everything else about him screams liberal not conservative.

helmuth_hubener
11-28-2016, 01:04 PM
For one he curses a lot, is a womanizer, has multiple children with multiple women(that he takes care of), not religious, pals around with lowlifes and corrupt to the gill people and does business with low moral characters.

I do not particularly disagree. Indeed, I wrote "So temperamentally he has some right, but probably just as much left," and it was issues such as these that you brought up that I was thinking of (there are others as well).

Thank you, juleswin, for for accepting and understanding what I was saying, rather than doubling down on the hallucination. :) The latter is the easier and more common course.

TheCount
11-28-2016, 02:33 PM
Oh good, I wasn't going crazy!

Arguable.


It seems to me that your intent is to derail the conversation away from Trump's conservatism, or rather his complete lack thereof, by casting aspersions upon anyone who dares say anything bad about His Orangeness. With that in mind, I might continue this conversation with you in another thread, but not this one.

helmuth_hubener
11-28-2016, 02:49 PM
your intent in this thread is to derail the conversation

In the lovely and very useful format that is vBulletin, it is trivially easy to converse along multiple lines, on multiple topics, in the very same thread. It's great! I, as usual, am talking about whatever esoteric gobbledegook I am talking about (which you have completely either misunderstood or mischaracterized, due to your overriding, blinding hatred of the reality and the success of the phenomenon that is President Trump), temperament and biology and psychology and blah-blah-blah. And you are, at the very same time, free to talk about whatever you wish to talk about! With no hindrance whatsoever!

Isn't that great news?

Yippee!

Pile on the hate for Trump! I would never want to derail that productive endeavor. ;) I do find it interesting your hatred is so strong that you even dropped your persona, your long-standing-for-multiple-years persona (!), and went full-serious for Trump! I, personally, somewhat prefer our familiar sneering, snarky, trolling "Waldorf" TheCount to the new bitter, serious, voice-of-reason "Sam the American Eagle" TheCount. At least a little. But, hey, you've got to troll and Correct That Record however you think best! Don't let me derail you!

Mordan
11-28-2016, 05:04 PM
gogogogo Helmuth. I read your posts and they are logical thoughtful ones. The responses are smelling of ego maniacal manure.

William R
11-28-2016, 06:03 PM
thanks for posting

H. E. Panqui
11-29-2016, 06:25 AM
helmuth asserts: Listening to people and accepting their honest differentiation and individuality is not [h. e. panqui's] strong point. That Ron Paul supporters might be a little bit different than Bob Dole supporters and that perhaps not all the blame for the world's sorrows can be cast at our doorstep, that never enters into his brain...When most or all of a group define themselves in a particular way, if one wants to understand that group -- as opposed to simply hate, despise, and mentally spit on them -- perhaps one should take at least the smallest bit of consideration into those factors they consider important to defining themselves. Dive into their model of thinking...

:rolleyes:

...ummm, helmuth, i've been listening to ?your stinking republicans for decades...and btw, the ONLY one i've ever found acceptable is ron paul...

...i have 'dived into their models of thinking' and found the outcomes of their 'thinking' to be very stinking:...i.e. republican stinking thinking and actions on 'foreign policy,' monetary policy, 'education', drug prohibition, tax policy, abortion, etc. ad gd nauseam...

...i have listened to ?your stinking republicans condemn stinking obomba for doubling the debt while ?your party's stinking hero, reagan, signed virtually every spending bill on the way to a tripling...i have listened to ?your stinking republicans condemn stinking hillary for 4 dead in benghazi, while they praise reagan whose ignorance was responsible for the deaths and maiming of hundreds of marines in lebanon...i have listened to your stinking republicans foam about 'liberty' and 'freedom' as they have jailed record numbers in their stoooooooooooooopid, insane pursuit of the 'war on drugs'...

...i have listened to MANY of your stinking conservative republicans claim, 'the media lies, don't believe them'..:rolleyes:...while they use 'the media' to justify any number of abominations, wars, foreign interventions, etc. crud ad nauseam...i have listened to your 'conservative republicans' avow their 'christianity' as they defile the spirit of christ...too many examples to list here...

...helmuth, in some respects i'm a lot like you...for example, while you appear disgusted with stinking thoughtless 'liberals,' i too am disgusted with thoughtless 'liberals'...but i am also disgusted with ?your thoughtless conservative republicans...

...helmuth, you seem to try real hard...but it seems your spiel can largely be supplanted by a parrot trained to squawk, 'liberal/left/democrat bad/worse,' conservative/right/republican good/better'...typically republicratish, helmuth... ;)

helmuth_hubener
11-29-2016, 10:29 AM
helmuth, you seem to try real hard...but it seems your spiel can largely be supplanted by a parrot trained to squawk, Gee, thanks a lot, Hank. Nice. Real insightful.


...helmuth, in some respects i'm a lot like you...for example, while you appear disgusted with stinking thoughtless 'liberals,' i too am disgusted with thoughtless 'liberals'...but i am also disgusted with ?your thoughtless conservative republicans... I'm not necessarily disgusted with anyone. While you seem to be disgusted with literally everyone... except yourself. Yep, we're a little bit different. :)


your stinking republicans...your stinking republicans...your party...your stinking republicans...your stinking conservative republicans Again, Hank, let me point out the absolutely mind-bogglingly obvious: they are not "my" Republicans. The Republican Party is not "my" party. You are abusing and misusing the possessive. It's not my party, and they're not my Republicans! You want to blame me for the actions of people who are distinct and different than me and have totally different ideas, strategies, and philosophies than me. You want to shove me into a group to which I do not belong and am not a part.

Why?

silverhandorder
11-29-2016, 10:39 AM
Trump is conservative by the fact that he is destroying the left. He wants same things conservatives want. He wants production, less political correctness, more freedom.

So far all we can judge is appointments and his actions. Appoints anti immigration AG, appoints voucher activist education minister. Appoints CIA director and national security advisor that wants to fight our enemies. This has all the lefties triggering all day long. Oh and bannon.

Now look at how he is dismantling news, Obama legacy and liberal opposition. Less of that means more room for freedom.

helmuth_hubener
11-29-2016, 03:50 PM
This is a flat out lie that you are propagating.

Could you please state the lie that you have hallucinated into my posts and that you believe -- in all sincerity, I'm sure -- that I am "propagating"? Just put the lie in simple sentence form. That way those not quite so hallucinatory will be able to understand what's going on here.

Thanks!

Chirp. Chirp. Chirp.....

helmuth_hubener
11-29-2016, 04:47 PM
gogogogo Helmuth. I read your posts and they are logical thoughtful ones. The responses are smelling of ego maniacal manure.

Well, thanks, Mordan! :o I do try!

H. E. Panqui
11-29-2016, 09:42 PM
helmuth whistles: Again, Hank, let me point out the absolutely mind-bogglingly obvious: they are not "my" Republicans. The Republican Party is not "my" party. You are abusing and misusing the possessive. It's not my party, and they're not my Republicans! You want to blame me for the actions of people who are distinct and different than me and have totally different ideas, strategies, and philosophies than me. You want to shove me into a group to which I do not belong and am not a part.

Why?

:cool:

...ummm...helmuth...of course i don't know with any certainty whether you are a republican apologist or not..that's why i put the question marks preceding 'your'..:rolleyes:...bad try, helmuth...

...of course when you apologize repeatedly for ?your stinking republicans with stuff like this, it arouses a lot of suspicion: ;)

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?502877-Anti-Trump-Violence-Sweeps-the-Nation-Media-Ignores&p=6347419#post6347419

'Facebook, Google, and Twitter have all given up all pretension and gone fully, unabashedly anti-Trump, pro-Clinton, and anti-America....To stop a non-puppet from getting in to the White House....'


:cool:

...yo rhetoric is pathetoric, helmuth!...it evokes memories of republican bootlickers apologizing for stinking ronald reagan...come on, just admit it helmuth!...you favor the stinking republicans over the stinking democrats!...be honest...get real...

...btw helmuth, how do you know trump is a 'non-puppet?' :confused:...do you know him personally?...did you get this from 'the liberal media' that [according to many of ?your fellow republicans] can't be believed?... :confused:

[hint for helmuth: it looks like, walks like and quacks like a republican duck] ;)