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View Full Version : How Gary Johnson and Jill Stein (and Wikileaks) helped elect Donald Trump




jmdrake
11-10-2016, 04:33 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/10/politics/gary-johnson-jill-stein-spoiler/

Yeah yeah Trump supporters. Your man won. And I'm glad Hillary lost. But don't kid yourself. It wasn't people going for Trump. It was voters turning against Hillary. Note that I added "and Wikileaks" to the title. Without Wikileaks, Bernie Sanders supporters wouldn't have known:

1) That the DNC was caught red heading steering the nomination to Hillary.
2) That Hillary thought they were lazy and living in their parents basement.
3) That Donna Brazil was secretly sending Hillary debate questions.
4) The level of the extend of the corruption with Hillary and Wall Street.

The Democrats fielded their most unpopular candidate ever and Wilileaks (and Wienerleaks) made sure she got exposed.

.....

Hey...I'm surprised nobody else has come up with that Wiernerleaks pun yet. I should copyright that and put it on a t-shirt.

Mordan
11-10-2016, 04:38 PM
sorry I don't read cnn anymore

hells_unicorn
11-10-2016, 04:39 PM
The first reaction of a sore loser is to blame someone else for their own failure, and sadly I fear that CNN failed miserably in getting their "candidate" elected. Facts can be painful, but they are very stubborn things.

undergroundrr
11-10-2016, 04:39 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/10/politics/gary-johnson-jill-stein-spoiler/

Yeah yeah Trump supporters. Your man won. And I'm glad Hillary lost. But don't kid yourself. It wasn't people going for Trump. It was voters turning against Hillary. Note that I added "and Wikileaks" to the title. Without Wikileaks, Bernie Sanders supporters wouldn't have known:

1) That the DNC was caught red heading steering the nomination to Hillary.
2) That Hillary thought they were lazy and living in their parents basement.
3) That Donna Brazil was secretly sending Hillary debate questions.
4) The level of the extend of the corruption with Hillary and Wall Street.

The Democrats fielded their most unpopular candidate ever and Wilileaks (and Wienerleaks) made sure she got exposed.

.....

Hey...I'm surprised nobody else has come up with that Wiernerleaks pun yet. I should copyright that and put it on a t-shirt.

Great points. I saw an absolutely stupid article today saying that Clinton won Colorado because Johnson stole all of trump's votes. Total credulity on parade.

UWDude
11-10-2016, 04:41 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/10/politics/gary-johnson-jill-stein-spoiler/

Yeah yeah Trump supporters. Your man won. And I'm glad Hillary lost. But don't kid yourself. It wasn't people going for Trump. It was voters turning against Hillary. Note that I added "and Wikileaks" to the title. Without Wikileaks, Bernie Sanders supporters wouldn't have known:

1) That the DNC was caught red heading steering the nomination to Hillary.
2) That Hillary thought they were lazy and living in their parents basement.
3) That Donna Brazil was secretly sending Hillary debate questions.
4) The level of the extend of the corruption with Hillary and Wall Street.

The Democrats fielded their most unpopular candidate ever and Wilileaks (and Wienerleaks) made sure she got exposed.

.....

Hey...I'm surprised nobody else has come up with that Wiernerleaks pun yet. I should copyright that and put it on a t-shirt.

wikileaks beat Clinton.

asurfaholic
11-10-2016, 05:28 PM
Not so sure Wikileaks did enough damage. Simply costing her a few popularity points may have cost her the election but she's still a free woman(*).

Im not saying she should be stoned in the town square,

..

But

She did commit massive treason and widespread terror and harm while committing crimes behind an official title. Would be very nice to see the appropriate amount of justice be served up.

enhanced_deficit
11-10-2016, 05:50 PM
They helped little bit but biggest boost for Trump win came from Obama. Trump could possibly have won without Gary/Jill but without Obama it would not have been possible.

Superfluous Man
11-10-2016, 06:09 PM
Lately I have been wondering if Johnson and Weld deliberately tried not to play a spoiler that would help Hillary win.

I know Johnson in particular doesn't have a good relationship with the GOP. But there could still have been forces at play behind the scenes, maybe not the GOP establishment per se, but maybe party big shots who are close enough to both Johnson and Weld and also pro-Republican enough to have had influence there. Plus, despite all their seemingly pro-Hillary rhetoric in the campaign, it might still be the case that they had strong enough distaste for her policies not to want to help her win.

The whole leftward orientation of the LP this election seemed so weird and counterproductive considering how the never Trump conservatives would have been such low hanging fruit for them. So maybe hurting the Dems' chances at winning was deliberate.

CPUd
11-10-2016, 06:19 PM
Lately I have been wondering if Johnson and Weld deliberately tried not to play a spoiler that would help Hillary win.

I know Johnson in particular doesn't have a good relationship with the GOP. But there could still have been forces at play behind the scenes, maybe not the GOP establishment per se, but maybe party big shots who are close enough to both Johnson and Weld and also pro-Republican enough to have had influence there. Plus, despite all their seemingly pro-Hillary rhetoric in the campaign, it might still be the case that they had strong enough distaste for her policies not to want to help her win.

The whole leftward orientation of the LP this election seemed so weird and counterproductive considering how the never Trump conservatives would have been such low hanging fruit for them. So maybe hurting the Dems' chances at winning was deliberate.

They were going for both, but when Johnson started polling in Utah, McMullin suddenly appeared.

luctor-et-emergo
11-10-2016, 06:21 PM
Lately I have been wondering if Johnson and Weld deliberately tried not to play a spoiler that would help Hillary win.

I know Johnson in particular doesn't have a good relationship with the GOP. But there could still have been forces at play behind the scenes, maybe not the GOP establishment per se, but maybe party big shots who are close enough to both Johnson and Weld and also pro-Republican enough to have had influence there. Plus, despite all their seemingly pro-Hillary rhetoric in the campaign, it might still be the case that they had strong enough distaste for her policies not to want to help her win.

The whole leftward orientation of the LP this election seemed so weird and counterproductive considering how the never Trump conservatives would have been such low hanging fruit for them. So maybe hurting the Dems' chances at winning was deliberate.


People need to stop the 'If you vote for A you are voting for B." kind of rhetoric. You vote in favor of someone, not against another candidate. In fact, voting third party or not voting at all is practically the same thing. Half of the country doesn't vote..... So what now.

AuH20
11-10-2016, 06:23 PM
Can the guy get any credit? RNC dumps him. Open revolt in many state GOPs that undermine him. Still manages to pull off history.

undergroundrr
11-10-2016, 06:25 PM
Lately I have been wondering if Johnson and Weld deliberately tried not to play a spoiler that would help Hillary win.

I know Johnson in particular doesn't have a good relationship with the GOP. But there could still have been forces at play behind the scenes, maybe not the GOP establishment per se, but maybe party big shots who are close enough to both Johnson and Weld and also pro-Republican enough to have had influence there. Plus, despite all their seemingly pro-Hillary rhetoric in the campaign, it might still be the case that they had strong enough distaste for her policies not to want to help her win.

The whole leftward orientation of the LP this election seemed so weird and counterproductive considering how the never Trump conservatives would have been such low hanging fruit for them. So maybe hurting the Dems' chances at winning was deliberate.

The placement of Weld could have been establishment-influenced. But in the end you have to buy that there was a major conspiracy involving hundreds of tight-lipped people (most of whom were LP activists for many years) for the convention voting to have been establishment-engineered.

The LP ideally shouldn't lean left or right. But if it was going to go one way, it needed a correction to the left after the mass-infusion of paleo-conservatism over the last couple decades.

The LP scored higher this election than any election in history. And I think if it had been a right-leaning ticket instead of Johnson/Weld, trump might not have won.

If one believes the record LP vote was because Johnson/Weld was a good ticket, then that's fine. If one thinks any of the rest of the guys (McAfee, Petersen, Parry) would have gotten 3%+ too, then they would have likely acted as a spoiler for trump in some of the most important, close states.

enhanced_deficit
11-10-2016, 06:29 PM
Lately I have been wondering if Johnson and Weld deliberately tried not to play a spoiler that would help Hillary win.


Weld could have been Hillary supporter trying to get her elected, he at times seemed like Hillary surrogate.

CPUd
11-10-2016, 06:30 PM
On Oct. 24, Trump’s team began placing spots on select African American radio stations. In San Antonio, a young staffer showed off a South Park-style animation he’d created of Clinton delivering the “super predator” line (using audio from her original 1996 sound bite), as cartoon text popped up around her: “Hillary Thinks African Americans are Super Predators.” The animation will be delivered to certain African American voters through Facebook “dark posts”—nonpublic posts whose viewership the campaign controls so that, as Parscale puts it, “only the people we want to see it, see it.” The aim is to depress Clinton’s vote total. “We know because we’ve modeled this,” says the official. “It will dramatically affect her ability to turn these people out.”
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-10-27/inside-the-trump-bunker-with-12-days-to-go

UWDude
11-10-2016, 06:39 PM
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-10-27/inside-the-trump-bunker-with-12-days-to-go

Oh no... ..they used the truth?

enhanced_deficit
11-10-2016, 06:42 PM
On Oct. 24, Trump’s team began placing spots on select African American radio stations. In San Antonio, a young staffer showed off a South Park-style animation he’d created of Clinton delivering the “super predator” line (using audio from her original 1996 sound bite), as cartoon text popped up around her: “Hillary Thinks African Americans are Super Predators.” The animation will be delivered to certain African American voters through Facebook “dark posts”—nonpublic posts whose viewership the campaign controls so that, as Parscale puts it, “only the people we want to see it, see it.” The aim is to depress Clinton’s vote total. “We know because we’ve modeled this,” says the official. “It will dramatically affect her ability to turn these people out.”

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-10-27/inside-the-trump-bunker-with-12-days-to-go

Besides those "super predator" ads, Trump supporters were also using ads suggesting "Hillary Clinton was not good role model for family values". Those were quite effective.

The Clinton Campaign Is Trying To Stop Those Pro-Trump Ads Starring Michelle Obama (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?503426-Did-Michelle-Obama-throw-shade-at-Hillary-Clinton&)

Superfluous Man
11-10-2016, 06:48 PM
Weld could have been Hillary supporter trying to get her elected, he at times seemed like Hillary surrogate.

But the effect of that could only have been to hurt her more than it helped her.

Superfluous Man
11-10-2016, 06:51 PM
The placement of Weld could have been establishment-influenced. But in the end you have to buy that there was a major conspiracy involving hundreds of tight-lipped people (most of whom were LP activists for many years) for the convention voting to have been establishment-engineered.


I'm not suggesting that at all.

But once they won the LP nomination, Johnson and Weld had an opportunity placed in their laps to do even better than they did (which was pretty good all things considered) by focusing on getting votes from those disenchanted conservatives. Instead, they very purposefully tried to win over votes from Democrats even when it meant positively repelling those conservatives they were initially more likely to get.

Some of that did start before winning the nomination, like the Nazi cake thing, and even choosing Weld as a running mate (although all things considered, as a strategic choice, Weld was probably a better than most options available to Johnson). But there was still time to fix those initial mistakes if they had wanted to after that.

CPUd
11-10-2016, 06:54 PM
I'm not suggesting that at all.

But once having won the LP nomination, Johnson and Weld had an opportunity placed in their laps to do even better than they did (which was pretty good all things considered). Instead, they very purposefully tried to win over votes from Democrats at the expense of getting the votes of the many conservatives who would have been initially a lot more inclined to support them.

From what I've seen in their 60 Minutes interview, it is most likely they flipped a coin to decide which group to go after.

TheCount
11-10-2016, 06:57 PM
Looking at the numbers, Trump didn't win, Hillary lost. In any other year the votes that he got would have lost the race. Hillary was just terrible, as everyone knew.

jmdrake
11-10-2016, 08:01 PM
Not so sure Wikileaks did enough damage. Simply costing her a few popularity points may have cost her the election but she's still a free woman(*).

Im not saying she should be stoned in the town square,

..

But

She did commit massive treason and widespread terror and harm while committing crimes behind an official title. Would be very nice to see the appropriate amount of justice be served up.

It's not over. Putting Clinton in prison is one campaign promise Trump should keep.

jmdrake
11-10-2016, 08:12 PM
Can the guy get any credit? RNC dumps him. Open revolt in many state GOPs that undermine him. Still manages to pull off history.

Oh Trump is a political genius. No doubt about it. He knew what to do to win the election which was troll teocons on immigration. And I gave him credit for dominating the 2nd debate (after getting killed in the first debate) and having a decent showing in the third. But come on. With Trump's baggage he couldn't have beat Hillary without help. Then again, without Trump's baggage Hillary would have been trounced worse. And I guess that's what I'm saying.

Mike4Freedom
11-10-2016, 08:14 PM
It's not over. Putting Clinton in prison is one campaign promise Trump should keep.

I will bet you an ounce of gold that Trump will not keep that promise.

Superfluous Man
11-10-2016, 11:14 PM
I will bet you an ounce of gold that Trump will not keep that promise.

I got the impression from his victory speech that he was breathing a sigh of relief that now he can finally stop pretending to oppose Hillary.

parocks
11-11-2016, 02:56 AM
People need to stop the 'If you vote for A you are voting for B." kind of rhetoric. You vote in favor of someone, not against another candidate. In fact, voting third party or not voting at all is practically the same thing. Half of the country doesn't vote..... So what now.

Oh, sometimes you definitely are voting against another candidate. if there was a oval next to the choice NOT Hillary Clinton, and a vote would've been taken away from Hillary - that's what I would've chosen.

I did not want Hillary to be President, and, so far, it looks like she won't be.

otherone
11-11-2016, 06:13 AM
IMO, the LP'S numbers were bolstered by the assumption of a Hillary victory. If the media reported the election was close, they would have voted Trump.