America is in Decay -- How We Fix It

[helmuth_hubener]

America is in a state of decay because uncle creates endless regulations which prevent economic activity.

That is part of it. The state's regulatory strangulation is a huge, gangantuan problem.

Unfortunately, there is an even bigger problem.

Even bigger than the state? Even bigger than gargantuan?

Yes.

We are in the midst of a civilizational collapse. This collapse is biologically-rooted. It has happened to every single previous civilization in history (except maybe the City of Enoch, but history is sketchy on that). If you'll allow me an understatement: It will be very hard to avert.

The solution?

Raise your kids harsher. Discipline them. Be more demanding. Have higher standards. Be rigorous. Punish. Doesn't sound libertarian, I know. Sorry. Many things in life and reality are counter-intuitive. This rigor and control very early in life (0-4) will actually make them much more creative and free-thinking as adults.

Don't over-feed them. Under-feed them. Don't give them toys.

Don't give yourself toys. Don't spend your money. Live on 10% of your income.

Do Extreme Vetting on the media you allow into your children. Only let in the best books, the best art, the best drama. And attend not only to quality, but select carefully with a mind to conveying very specific messages.

This may be obvious in light of the last point, but: this means no uncontrolled spigots of media into your children's minds. Most certainly no TV in the home. The medium is the message. Even if you watch only the most uplifting, educational programs, the medium of television itself communicates passivity, apathy, morbidity. You are just a passive spud, sitting consumptively, being fed messages from a centralized, implicitly authoritative and superior beacon of culture.

Join a society, most likely religious, where you and more importantly your children will be surrounded by other people with very high levels of discipline, exercising very high degrees of control over their children.

Surround yourself with and associate with the highest-level people in every way. That doesn't mean rich people, it means hard-working, disciplined people. Nothing but good role-models everywhere for you and your kids.

Pheromone therapy may also play an important role. The good pheromones you get from all the people you're associating with at church and Cub Scouts and whatnot will help, but it may not be enough to push back against the colossal inertia of the civilizational cycle. Unfortunately, pheromone therapy is not yet developed, but it's important that the scientists continue working on it as quickly as possible, because it may end up being an essential aid.


Do you have any other ideas to add?

[Champ]

It may be too late, but sitting around crying about this fact isn't going to help anything either. Just some thoughts on that here.

To echo some of your points, we in general need to raise a new generation of children with emphasis on the parents responsibility to actually raise them, especially in the moral and values sense, and not hand them off to secondary and tertiary resources. The last 2-3 generations, maybe more, our children were handed off to propaganda camps at school and daycare centers after school. Then when they actually had time to spend at home with family, children perched themselves in front of a propaganda box, some call the tv, and did that all day. Now they perch themselves in front of a propaganda minibox, some call the cellphone. Parents have wanted to live their own life and be more hands off, and so the government books and media have enjoyed the priveledge of raising a bunch of weak minded simpletons (compliant citizenry), which was likely the goal since the department of education was introduced. Since it has become common place for everyone in the US to run their family this way, not many questioned it or the outcome, it has become the norm.

Every person we try to now educate about the ideas of liberty is almost guaranteed to have this indoctrination and I'm sure most that have attempted it know, it is not easy to persuade a statist mind to free itself from believing government is the answer to all of our problems. The resistance to liberty will always be there and it will always be strong and may have never been stronger as we speak. This is why we haven't been able to win over a large enough minority of the population to free itself yet. So starting with the next generation and focusing on education seems to be one of the few paths forward.

If there is any hope, these parenting trends need to stop and dependence on other sources of nurturing and guidance needs to end. Parents need to take a more active role and put stronger limitations on the crap that their children would otherwise flood their mind with. I think you would see a drastic difference in generations if this were to take place, but that's a mighty big "if", probably too big. The cost will be less satisfaction with ones own life and personal habits doing what they want to do with their free time due to the sacrifice, but the reward will be knowing what values your children have instilled in them instead of the current paradigm, which is hoping for the best with what public schools and television have to offer.

[H. E. Panqui]

...it seems to me we have an insane 'educational' order...somewhat largely, we choose new 'teachers' from a pool of 22 year-olds fresh from enough college brainwashing to pass the stinking (government) teachers' license test...

...so now you have government-licensed 'teachers' given the important job of (supposedly) inculcating into 'the youth' the necessary skills to compete/thrive in a so-called 'free market' economy.. but these 'teachers' have, generally, acquired few federal reserve note$ ('dollars' to republicrats ;)) that were not first stolen from some taxpayers!?..what do they know about competing in 'the free market'?! :confused:

..it seems obvious that in any naturally-ordered society 'the elders' strongly tend to possess the wisdom and good information more worthy to spread/inculcate rather than the 'wisdom' and information of those government-approved teachers....

...and 'teaching' is a largely sedentary job...more attuned to elders than 22 year-olds fresh from college toga parties...;)

...us old farts may be doomed...and we may be 'sunk costs'...but 'fixing' 'education' may be the best bet for 'fixing' the 'decay' problem...

p.s. in a healthy, thriving society all of us are 'teachers'...and students.....

[helmuth_hubener]

You know what, Hank, a school manned exclusively by men over 60 does seem like a lot more attractive proposition than the rainbow-colored monstrosities we have now, and that I suffered through. (And women over 60 would likely be attractive to the females. Segregated boys' schools and girls' schools is a mighty fine idea, too, for that matter.)

Maybe they'd have occasional emergency drills where everyone would have to run out and do push-ups in the rain! It would likely be fun, anyway. Nice contrast to the stultifying dreariness of the utterly PC-enslaved schools of today.

[tod evans]

You know what, Hank, a school manned exclusively by men over 60 does seem like a lot more attractive proposition than the rainbow-colored monstrosities we have now, and that I suffered through. (And women over 60 would likely be attractive to the females. Segregated boys' schools and girls' schools is a mighty fine idea, too, for that matter.)

Maybe they'd have occasional emergency drills where everyone would have to run out and do push-ups in the rain! It would likely be fun, anyway. Nice contrast to the stultifying dreariness of the utterly PC-enslaved schools of today.

They were called military academies when I was a kid...

I was threatened with them regularly...

[helmuth_hubener]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CvsjDwKW8AAlgp1.jpg

[osan]

That is part of it. The state's regulatory strangulation is a huge, gangantuan problem.

Unfortunately, there is an even bigger problem.

Well, yes, that is in fact so.


We are in the midst of a civilizational collapse. This collapse is biologically-rooted. It has happened to every single previous civilization in history... It will be very hard to avert.

Not sure I would use "civilizational". Not sure I wouldn't.


The solution?...

Raise your kids harsher. Discipline them. Be more demanding. Have higher standards. Be rigorous. Punish. Doesn't sound libertarian, I know. Sorry. Many things in life and reality are counter-intuitive. This rigor and control very early in life (0-4) will actually make them much more creative and free-thinking as adults.

Don't over-feed them. Under-feed them. Don't give them toys.

Don't give yourself toys. Don't spend your money.

While I appreciate and believe that I understand your spirit and tack, I might tune the phrasing a bit, for yours may go too far to the other side of the swing.

How about "feed them wisely"? Educate them - forget about schooling. Be as an example to them in your every deed - the importance of this can hardly be over-stated. Love them and be there for them in everything, even when they make grave errors. And for God's sake make them explicitly aware of your love in word as well as deed. Allow them the liberty to make errors that they may learn not only from the gaff, but that it is alright to fail so long as the lessons to be gained are not thrown to the floor in waste.


Live on 10% of your income.

Not possible for some. Perhaps "be reasonably frugal" may suffice? Remember, these are suggestions made by one free man to his fellows. Let us not adopt the tone of the tyrant.

I will add that the "state", as it were, must be eliminated in toto as a practice. It must, therefore, be eliminated from thought. It is through the convolutions of mind that perforce arise in result of the pernicious effect that this false notion, this vector of mental and spiritual disease, that leads men to their dooms. The tacit messages of the very concepts of "state" and "government" are as the song of the siren to the sailors of antiquity's mythology. This contagion is woven into the very fabric of the concepts and cannot by any means possible be removed without destroying the concepts themselves, and all that they inevitably come to imply. Those two concepts, and all to which they lead, drive men's thoughts inevitably down the path to self-destruction because of the very nature of the dance arising in minds where "state" and "government" have taken root.

The elimination of governMENT does not imply the elimination of governANCE. We should seek to excise from our minds those ideas that give rise to disease conditions in men's minds. Replace that which destroys life with that which affirms it. Mind is the place to begin.

GovernMENT is, by the nature of the very concept, both collectivist and authoritarian. When it lives in your mind, tacitly accepted as "fact", the tyrant has you by your throat without ever having to lift a finger, for you have become a self-defeating enemy and a self-limiting asset such that Theye need lose little sleep with worries of your going dangerously afield. Those little excursions off the plantation that some are wont to make on occasion are readily treated with combinations of fear, shame, threats of violence, and actual violence that may result in death for those less amenable to the gentler corrections.

The tyrant has most of us by the balls, make no mistake on that point. Even many "liberty" oriented people are owned, lock, stock, and barrel by the Masters, unbeknownst to those thinking they know what it means to be free men.

Freedom of body requires freedom of mind. Without the latter, the former is either unattainable or meaningless, for the mind-slave will always obey sufficiently to guarantee the tyrant's perpetuities.

Your thoughts form your reality. Your words form your thoughts. Ponder that at great length, if understanding is truly your goal.

[r3volution 3.0]

We are in the midst of a civilizational collapse. This collapse is biologically-rooted.

Yes to the former, no to the latter.

Civilization is collapsing (collapsed?) for one and one reason only: democracy.

That's it.

Nothing will ever get better until democracy is ended; nothing on the soft and fluffy "cultural" front will make any difference whatsoever.

[helmuth_hubener]

Yes to the former, no to the latter.

Civilization is collapsing (collapsed?) for one and one reason only: democracy.

That's it.

Nothing will ever get better until democracy is ended; nothing on the soft and fluffy "cultural" front will make any difference whatsoever.

Well, you should read and study the ideas in the book Biohistory and see if you still feel that way.

"Democracy is corrosive" has some good explanatory power. But hard to see how it could explain the collapse of Sumerian civilization. Or ancient China. For instances.

People matter. People's qualities and temperaments matter. We aren't just cogs. You can't just plug us in to a different institutional framework and expect viola! magical total change in how people act, revival of civilization. Stopping democracy is not going to result in a reconstitution of the strong family, for instance, and the family is the bedrock.

Institutions matter. But they're not all that matter. People actually matter. I know we differ on this. And you will never take the time to try to understand my ideas and why people matter and I'm not interested in going around in circles with you. Go anoint yourself a king so that all the world's problems will be solved.

[presence]

The only way to "fix" America is to to first recognize
ALL edicts of license, permit, taxation, and regulation to be ILLEGITIMATE
and then to advance the cause of every peaceful means of resistance.

[helmuth_hubener]

While I appreciate and believe that I understand your spirit and tack,... yours may go too far to the other side of the swing. Consciously and intentionally so.

The long-term multi-generational temperament morphing means that our parents are lax and lazy compared to their parents. Those grandparents, in turn, are soft and shiftless compared to their grandparents. Etc. This pattern continues back to the Victorian Era before reversing the other direction, or perhaps one generation before that. Or perhaps not. As best we can observe and quantify, the Victorian Era was the height of our current (Anglo-Germanic-American) civilization.

Anyway, the long-term multi-generational temperament morphing means that to get back to the ideal, to the Victorian Era way, one must go well beyond the comfort zone of how he would naturally be inclined to discipline. The normal pattern is for grandma to think: "Honey, you guys are spoiling your children. In my day..." Instead, if grandma is saying: "Oh my, we were never that strict! You're going too far," then you're on the right track. When even great- or great-great-grandpa was lax compared to you and would be a little uncomfortable with your level of rigor, then you're finally getting somewhere. And when even osan thinks you've gone to far?! Then you've really got it made; you've found the sweet spot. ;)


Your thoughts form your reality. Your words form your thoughts. Ponder that at great length, if understanding is truly your goal. Your statement has a lot of truth value. I choose to emphasize work rather than pure thought. The physical, the tangible, gritty -- that forms my reality. Steel plates and molded plastic. Elbow grease and hammer blows. What good are thoughts without metal chips and wood shavings? What good are bits without large concrete dams and the mammoth copper coilings of dynamos?

Action, men!

And ideas, yes ideas, but most especially actionable ideas!


https://tlabc.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/78455092.jpg

[Jerry C]

There is no easy answer, sadly and much of what will fix things goes beyond just policy and toward changing the very values of society itself. As others have pointed out education, good parenting and good role models are very important in this regard. The schools have become little more than glorified brain washing factories with them teaching various half truths and even outright lies, and becoming increasingly top down with these ridiculous "lessons" on how to pass some increasingly stupid tests.

Even universities have jumped the shark by embracing so called safe spaces, trigger warnings and other politically correct nonsense and rejecting free thought and inquiry. Part of it is because of the increased influence of the state in education and part of it is the decreased involvement of parents in their childrens lives and the increased dependence on the school system itself to teach certain subjects which should be the parents responsibility such as sex ed for example. The answer to this would be a separation of education and state as well as encouraging parents to spend more time with their children.

What people expect from government itself must also change, the people must realize that the government dependence holds dangers that are not only economic but also threaten liberty. Whatever they can give, they must take from others and what they can take from others they can just as easily take from you. There simply put needs to be significantly less federal control and more control on the state and local level and to the people themselves as per the 9th and 10th amendments.

[osan]

I choose to emphasize work rather than pure thought. The physical, the tangible, gritty -- that forms my reality. Steel plates and molded plastic. Elbow grease and hammer blows. What good are thoughts without metal chips and wood shavings? What good are bits without large concrete dams and the mammoth copper coilings of dynamos?

Action, men!

And ideas, yes ideas, but most especially actionable ideas!

I applaud your position regarding action, but do not dismiss thought, for without it action's value become eminently questionable.

It's all important, but I submit that unless we are living lives of pure reflex, though must be the undergird of all action for that is the means by which we direct actions in compliance with the will.

[euphemia]

I disagree with the OP. Society will not change unless people's hearts are changed. Unless the change comes from within, there are not enough rules in the world to change society. That's exactly how the OP opens. Too much regulation. People must self-regulate in order for there to be a free and orderly society.

[helmuth_hubener]

I applaud your position regarding action, but do not dismiss thought, for without it action's value become eminently questionable.

It's all important, but I submit that unless we are living lives of pure reflex, though must be the undergird of all action for that is the means by which we direct actions in compliance with the will.I do not dismiss thought. This entire thread -- writing in general -- is an exercise in thought!

I don't think that anyone on this Earth would be willing to take an anti-thinking position. Action, on the other hand, gets a bad rap, and is increasingly less practiced.

[helmuth_hubener]

I disagree with the OP. Society will not change unless people's hearts are changed. Unless the change comes from within, there are not enough rules in the world to change society. That's exactly how the OP opens. Too much regulation. People must self-regulate in order for there to be a free and orderly society. I am the OP (unless I misunderstand your acronym!). What do you disagree with? My entire OP is specifically about how we can save the world by self-regulation! By individual action that we can take! And I also do throw in that I oppose regulatory strangulation.

Perhaps we are experiencing a misunderstanding.

[euphemia]

Rules alone won't do it. People need to be changed from the inside out. I would say that comes through faith in God as he has made himself known through history. That's the opposite of being a harsh parent sending children to segregated schools.

[osan]

I don't think that anyone on this Earth would be willing to take an anti-thinking position.

When's the last time you spoke with a progressive? :)


Action, on the other hand, gets a bad rap, and is increasingly less practiced.

Because action is often a material manifestation of power. Theye strongly discourage that unless they are the ones ordering it.

[H. E. Panqui]

helmuth: "You know what, Hank, a school manned exclusively by men over 60 does seem like a lot more attractive proposition than the rainbow-colored monstrosities we have now, and that I suffered through. (And women over 60 would likely be attractive to the females. Segregated boys' schools and girls' schools is a mighty fine idea, too, for that matter.)"

...as to 'segregation' in general..i'm not a fan...but i will admit 'government' should neither discourage or encourage segregation....

...good thread...osan nails it with 'feed them wisely'--how could this not be at the pinnacle of importance?...also osan says, 'educate, forget about schooling'...this is so true...

...tod evans and i were both threatened with 'military school'...but i didn't/don't want/need to be 'militarized'...when i was acting up in geometry or trigonometry and whining, 'WHY DO I NEED TO KNOW THIS SH!T??'...i needed an experienced surveyor to say, 'panky you young goddamned fool, 'come outside and i'll show you how to use the transit to lay out a proper road so you can cruise chicks in comfort without spilling your beer...

...instead i got some government-licensed math teacher who had learned how to manipulate equations without possessing any practical knowledge..not very inspiring to a young panky...or an old panky...i might have enjoyed the helmuth school of action..except for no girls and push-ups in the rain...

[r3volution 3.0]

Well, you should read and study the ideas in the book Biohistory and see if you still feel that way.

IIRC, and please correct me if I'm wrong, we went through that, and it was found to be unsubstantiated pseudoscience.


"Democracy is corrosive" has some good explanatory power. But hard to see how it could explain the collapse of Sumerian civilization. Or ancient China. For instances.

Civilizations collapse for a variety of reasons: the most common being conquest.

The Sumerian civilization didn't collapse internally (or at least we don't know that it did).

The old cities were simply conquered by Sargon, then Cyrus, then Alexander, etc (abbreviated version).

As for China, it never collapsed at all. It was just chronically mismanaged, because it was too large for the pre-telecomm era.


People matter. People's qualities and temperaments matter. We aren't just cogs. You can't just plug us in to a different institutional framework and expect viola! magical total change in how people act, revival of civilization. Stopping democracy is not going to result in a reconstitution of the strong family, for instance, and the family is the bedrock.

Productivity is the bedrock.

You'll find plenty of "family values" in sub-Saharan Africa.


Institutions matter. But they're not all that matter. People actually matter. I know we differ on this. And you will never take the time to try to understand my ideas and why people matter and I'm not interested in going around in circles with you. Go anoint yourself a king so that all the world's problems will be solved.

Somebody should be anointed king; then all the world's problems (those which are solvable) would indeed be solved.

[helmuth_hubener]

IIRC, and please correct me if I'm wrong, we went through that, and it was found to be unsubstantiated pseudoscience. "We" "went through" "that"? In what sense? 3P0, I am one of those people who believe that one must read a book to have a valid opinion about its contents. You will please excuse me for being old-fashioned that way.

Clever manipulative use of the passive tense, though. You really are a textual judo master. If only you weren't utterly uncurious and sure of yourself.


Somebody should be anointed king; then all the world's problems (those which are solvable) would indeed be solved.
Yes, no need to correct me, though: I meant "anoint a king for yourself." I know you yourself don't consider yourself worthy to be king.

[helmuth_hubener]

They were called military academies when I was a kid...

I was threatened with them regularly...

As was "Ted" Theodore Logan!

And at least for him, the military academy did work to rouse him to higher level of achievement than his previous hapless sloth -- worked through the mere threat of its existence, without even his frozen attendance at it in Alaska.

[r3volution 3.0]

I am one of those people who believe that one must read a book to have a valid opinion about its contents.

I have an opinion about theses which attribute the rise and fall of civilization to biology (namely, that such theses are bunk).

All I really know about this book's thesis is that it falls into that general category of biological explanation of history. I don't know the exact logic of its argument because you've refused to lay it out. It's as if somebody suggested I read a new defense of the labor theory of value; unless he can summarize the argument and give me some reason to believe that it may not be the bunk which all other defenses of the LTV have been, I'm not going to be buying it (if it were free, I might give it a skim). So, till someone produces a good summary of the book's argument, or the author puts up a free ebook, I guess I'll have to remain in the dark.

[H. E. Panqui]

...helmuth, 'action' can be MUCH worse than inaction...even 'sloth'...for example, while some goddamned bankster$, etc., decide [killing] 'action' is to be promoted i firmly believe that inactive, slothful, lay-about, unemployed, etc., killers are a much superior outcome...

...in other words helmuth, we'd all be better off if the goddamned active killers, mercenaries, etc. assorted goddamned fools/cretins galore, stayed home, smoked dope and watched cartoons....

...a big positive is the roads wouldn't be NEAR as choked-up, dangerous, unhealthy, etc., if all the goddamned fools stayed home...

[The Rebel Poet]

...helmuth, 'action' can be MUCH worse than inaction...even 'sloth'...for example, while some goddamned bankster$, etc., decide [killing] 'action' is to be promoted i firmly believe that inactive, slothful, lay-about, unemployed, etc., killers are a much superior outcome...

...in other words helmuth, we'd all be better off if the goddamned active killers, mercenaries, etc. assorted goddamned fools/cretins galore, stayed home, smoked dope and watched cartoons....

...a big positive is the roads wouldn't be NEAR as choked-up, dangerous, unhealthy, etc., if all the goddamned fools stayed home...
Outta rep

[helmuth_hubener]

Your theses are bunk, Helmuth.

It's your fault I'm not better informed. You've refused to lay everything out for me, you lazy bum! It's all because of you that I am forced to have opinions about things I know nothing about. Finally, allow me to draw a parallel between your babblings and the stupidest theory I can think of: the labor theory of value.

3PO, I think you ought to take a step back and ask yourself what exactly it is that you were trying to accomplish by coming into my thread and trying to anger me by calling me and my ideas moronic. Ask yourself: what is my end-game there, by doing that?

Perhaps you should not antagonize one of the few people on this forum who still speaks civilly to you and hasn't completely written you off for your preference for world-domination.

Don't poke me.

I am having a thread here about practical, actionable ideas that people can do in their own lives and families -- Unilaterally! Today! Without having to convince 151 million other people first! -- that will have a very positive effect for liberty. And, as a big bonus, will lead to a very positive outcome for their kids' success. As well as their own success.

[helmuth_hubener]

Rules alone won't do it. People need to be changed from the inside out. I would say that comes through faith in God as he has made himself known through history. That's the opposite of being a harsh parent sending children to segregated schools.

Whoops, I missed your follow-up post, euphemia. Thanks for explaining your thoughts further!

I am all for faith in God!

Could you explain why being a "harsh" (I would instead say "demanding") parent is somehow "the opposite" of having faith in God? Sociological study will show, quite clearly, that it is the most faithful and religious parents who are the most likely to discipline and control their children, to a much greater degree than secular parents. So the two seem to go together, in practical reality.

To explain myself a bit more: Children, especially infants and toddlers (which is when I think high control is most called-for and most effective) want to know how to act. They want to learn how to be a proper human. They need their parents to direct them. A hands-off approach, then, is abusive. You're leaving the child alone to wander in the wilderness, in the dark. He needs to puzzle everything out on his own. "No rules, just love!"

No, euphemia, to give the young child no rules is to hate him. And destroy him.

[presence]

to give the young child no rules is to hate him.

And destroy him.

I certainly agree with this notion.
Being father of a severe hemophiliac my outlook is a little more extreme than most on limits and boundaries.
Rule 1 in our house is to make it another 24 hours with no new injuries.
I do every thing to bring harsh awareness of bitter reality with words,
long before he can come to actual injury, "spontaneous" or otherwise;
both for his health and the astronomical cost of care.
As a parent of a kid in a tight box of boundaries,
I've learned its important though that every "cultural"rule is cast
with adequate lip service to its reason.
violation of "cultural" rules I try to handle like they did in ancient china;
forgiveness and no penalty, after a stern discussion on consequences potential or actual
the goal to impart the reason; make the cultural moral-anti-vice impression; not to punish transgression

[helmuth_hubener]

Here is another practical, actionable step you can take to save America from decay:

People will be starting to think about Christmas presents around this time. (Don't ask me why -- it's too early! But it is what it is.) The toy stores and toy sections of today's declined America consist almost entirely of:

Ready-made objects whose purpose is to be "played" with.

Instead, why not give a toy that sends the opposite meta-message:

• An erector set
• A model plane, car, boat, or architecture kit.


These were by far the most popular toys among boys in our civilization's high-point. Every boy coveted these prizes: the tools and materials that would let him work with his hands.

I am very pro working-with-one's-hands!

They have now gone by the wayside. The closest thing on shelves today is Legos. So where can one get model kits? Head to a local RC and hobby store.

And here are some modern erector set type incarnations:

http://blog.infentorides.com/ -- Larger size pieces, for building your own bikes, scooters, etc.

https://www.phunzone.com/Quadro%20Residential/FAQ.html -- Large-scale, Life-sized Tinkertoys.

http://www.vexrobotics.com/ -- Focus on building remote-control robots (but, like any good construction toy, can be used to build whatever)

And the biggest old brand is still around:

http://www.meccano.com/



http://discovermagazine.com/~/media/Images/Issues/2014/Dec/erector-set.jpg

[helmuth_hubener]

I certainly agree with this notion. Thanks, presence! :)

Being father of a severe hemophiliac my outlook is a little more extreme than most on limits and boundaries.
Rule 1 in our house is to make it another 24 hours with no new injuries. Yikes!


As a parent of a kid in a tight box of boundaries,
...
the goal to impart the reason; make the cultural moral-anti-vice impression; not to punish transgression
That is true; I agree.

Let me go further with some thoughts along the line of "tight boxes of boundaries." In Biohistory, the author recounts a particular Pacific island where the children were prodigiously good mechanics. Just amazing. It turns out that on this island the infants were controlled to an extremely high degree. The islanders walked around on bridges over the water everywhere, and so they rigorously and mercilessly trained the infants to grab on to the mother's neck and then hold on for dear life no matter what, for hours on end, as the mother walked about getting things done. They could not let them crawl around or have any degree of normal freedom of movement an infant would have, because they'd immediately fall and drown.

High control during infancy may be linked to mechanical aptitude. In any case, that's just one fascinating example. Tight boxes of boundaries have benefits in themselves. And it's not about controlling the child -- it's about teaching the child just how much -- the almost infinite degree to which -- he can control himself. Discipline and willpower are treasures beyond price.

[BV2]

Might also have something to do with people spending in their own short term interests, but against their long term intrests. Ie shopping at walmart cause its cheaper, allowing wal to eliminate local competition-and then raise prices. As it seens amazon has done. Heard Bezos was opening brick and mortar bookstores. Oh, goddamn, the irony.

[BV2]

That is part of it. The state's regulatory strangulation is a huge, gangantuan problem.

Unfortunately, there is an even bigger problem.

Even bigger than the state? Even bigger than gargantuan?

Yes.

We are in the midst of a civilizational collapse. This collapse is biologically-rooted. It has happened to every single previous civilization in history (except maybe the City of Enoch, but history is sketchy on that). If you'll allow me an understatement: It will be very hard to avert.

The solution?

Raise your kids harsher. Discipline them. Be more demanding. Have higher standards. Be rigorous. Punish. Doesn't sound libertarian, I know. Sorry. Many things in life and reality are counter-intuitive. This rigor and control very early in life (0-4) will actually make them much more creative and free-thinking as adults.

Don't over-feed them. Under-feed them. Don't give them toys.

Don't give yourself toys. Don't spend your money. Live on 10% of your income.

Do Extreme Vetting on the media you allow into your children. Only let in the best books, the best art, the best drama. And attend not only to quality, but select carefully with a mind to conveying very specific messages.

This may be obvious in light of the last point, but: this means no uncontrolled spigots of media into your children's minds. Most certainly no TV in the home. The medium is the message. Even if you watch only the most uplifting, educational programs, the medium of television itself communicates passivity, apathy, morbidity. You are just a passive spud, sitting consumptively, being fed messages from a centralized, implicitly authoritative and superior beacon of culture.

Join a society, most likely religious, where you and more importantly your children will be surrounded by other people with very high levels of discipline, exercising very high degrees of control over their children.

Surround yourself with and associate with the highest-level people in every way. That doesn't mean rich people, it means hard-working, disciplined people. Nothing but good role-models everywhere for you and your kids.

Pheromone therapy may also play an important role. The good pheromones you get from all the people you're associating with at church and Cub Scouts and whatnot will help, but it may not be enough to push back against the colossal inertia of the civilizational cycle. Unfortunately, pheromone therapy is not yet developed, but it's important that the scientists continue working on it as quickly as possible, because it may end up being an essential aid.


Do you have any other ideas to add?

You are letting your statist show.

[helmuth_hubener]

You are letting your statist show.

By coming up with a realistic long-term plan to get to statelessness?

[Occam's Banana]

Might also have something to do with people spending in their own short term interests, but against their long term intrests. Ie shopping at walmart cause its cheaper, allowing wal to eliminate local competition-and then raise prices. As it seens amazon has done. Heard Bezos was opening brick and mortar bookstores. Oh, goddamn, the irony.

Why is that supposed to be a bad thing?

At worst, you get cheaper prices for a while, and then prices go back up.

But that, in turn, invites yet more competition (against Walmart, this time), which drives prices back down ...

Ceteris paribus, raising prices always gives opportunities for price competition to entrepreneurs.

Markets always clear (when they are allowed to do so ...).

[bunklocoempire]

Is my supply chain secure?

There is great satisfaction with DIY.
There is great satisfaction in horse-trading with like minded people.
There is great satisfaction giving a big FU to any third party who would take a cut by force.
There is a moral responsibility to give a big FU to any third party who would take a cut by force.

Support force for a matter of convenience? Any adjustments that can be made, should be made.

Value and pro-active, is where it's at.

I won't buy you a 6 pack of soda at a store, but I will offer you some home made-mason jar-ginger beer or switchel.
I won't buy you an egg McMuffin, but I will offer you some eggs and chicken manure.
I won't join you on Fedbook, but I will offer to have you join me on Diaspora, and you can still cross post to Fedbook.
I won't take FRNs for my labor, but I will take trades of value.
etc.

It's a very satisfying game.:) mmmm... where could I procure something of greater value, that doesn't support a million government directives?
One foot in their system of aggression (unfortunately), and one foot as far out as possible. I've got a LOT more to do.

I buy our mason jars at Walmart. I buy a lot of our DIY stuff from Walmart. When a better value comes along, we go with that instead of Walmart convenience.

Living on an island, we get to see the store shelves empty out in 3 days or so when there is a major disruption in the supply chain. (hurricanes, ILWU, etc.)
It would be pretty stupid of me to ignore the coming supply chain disaster, so why not prepare and do some good while we're at it?

It's great for the attitude, like you wouldn't believe.

[osan]

Might also have something to do with people spending in their own short term interests, but against their long term intrests. Ie shopping at walmart cause its cheaper, allowing wal to eliminate local competition-and then raise prices. As it seens amazon has done. Heard Bezos was opening brick and mortar bookstores. Oh, goddamn, the irony.

Yeah, but it's the smart move. Whether he knew it all along or just twigged to it, Bezos realizes that B&M is the way to go when you are king of the hill precisely because the book that is sitting in one's hot little hands is substantially more likely to go home with you than the one staring back at you from behind a computer screen. The strategy was not terribly sophisticated. It was rather brutish and old-fashioned, but it worked. Kill the competition and take over his territory. It's an old recipe.

What amazed me about the whole dot-bomb deal was how deeply the nitwit public swallowed the bait - all the bullshit and outright lies about the new world that the internet was going to usher in. Between my R&D days at Bell Labs and my hard business experience as a hired gun, I watched in near-disbelief as hordes of people around me would go on about how nobody was going to have to get out of their beds again, much less go to work, have everything delivered into their laps in said beds, and all Americans were going to become millionaires by week's end. It is just about the only thing I can think of, except Kathy Masotta, that has left my jaw in a state of perfect slackness. Even my bottomlessly low opinion of the average man did not quite prepare me for the depth of willful stupidity and blind greed that I witnessed on a daily basis for nearly a decade. The only thing that surprised me was that it lasted as long as it did.

Anyhow, if true, this Amazon thing would appear to have been very well played. Have to hand it to them for brass, fortitude, and keeping it simple, stupid.

[osan]

But that, in turn, invites yet more competition (against Walmart, this time), which drives prices back down ...

In days past, yes. Today, I am not that sure. Walmart altered the game by successfully placing nearly all major manufacturers in their pockets. Bear in mind that we do not know the details of the lucrative sales contracts between WallyWorld and its vendors. I hold little doubt that their negotiators are the cream of the cream, meaning they almost certainly have engineered their agreements to the greatest Walmart advantage possible. They may well have the manufacturers locked way up such that competition becomes a practical improbability.

It seems to me that Walmart has been very clever, patient, and careful in how they have established their market position. You can bet your ass they have done everything in their power to reduce the risks of competition to an absolute minimum.


Markets always clear (when they are allowed to do so ...).

The key term in bold, and one that cannot be assumed nowadays.

[Occam's Banana]

In days past, yes. Today, I am not that sure. Walmart altered the game by successfully placing nearly all major manufacturers in their pockets. Bear in mind that we do not know the details of the lucrative sales contracts between WallyWorld and its vendors. I hold little doubt that their negotiators are the cream of the cream, meaning they almost certainly have engineered their agreements to the greatest Walmart advantage possible. They may well have the manufacturers locked way up such that competition becomes a practical improbability.

It doesn't matter what arrangements they make with vendors, suppliers and manufacturers (secretly or otherwise). If they manage to drive competitors out of business by undercutting those erstwhile competitors' prices, and subsequently try to jack prices up over market clearing prices, then they'll just be greasing the skids for more of the very competition they've just gone to such pains to eliminate. (And if they don't jack their prices up above market clearing prices ... well, then, there's not really anything to complain about in the first place.)

This is why attempts at monopolization will always fail (and always have failed) unless the wannabe monopolizers get a little help from their friends in government.

Walmart may be able to cut some sweet deals with other business entities, but it can't cut any deals at all with the laws of economics - no matter how creamy its negotiators are.


It seems to me that Walmart has been very clever, patient, and careful in how they have established their market position. You can bet your ass they have done everything in their power to reduce the risks of competition to an absolute minimum.

So should every profit-seeking business. There is nothing wrong with that.

The only question to be concerned about is whether they have used force to quash their competition.

Making clever deals (secretly or otherwise) with vendors, suppliers & manufacturers does not violate this standard.


The key term in bold, and one that cannot be assumed nowadays.

I haven't assumed that markets are being allowed to clear, which is precisely why I offered the parenthetical.

Before building new stores, big retailers like Walmart, Target, etc. will often seek and acquire special anti-competitive accomodations from local municipal governments - such as agreements that other big retailers will not be permitted to erect new stores in the area (this is typically done by the city fathers refusing zoning easements to newcomers, or other such tactics). These kinds of shenanigans are perfectly legitimate causes to denounce and condemn Walmart et al.

But none of these things were mentioned by BV2, to whom I was replying. BV2 made reference only to price competition - and whatever Walmart's sins may be, offering cheaper prices is NOT one of them.

[osan]

It doesn't matter what arrangements they make with vendors, suppliers and manufacturers (secretly or otherwise). If they manage to drive competitors out of business by undercutting those erstwhile competitors' prices, and subsequently try to jack prices up over market clearing prices, then they'll just be greasing the skids for more of the very competition they've just gone to such pains to eliminate. (And if they don't jack their prices up above market clearing prices ... well, then, there's not really anything to complain about in the first place.)

And if they keep prices right at the clearing rate, they continue.

Let us not be naive to the fact that Walmart has been decidedly anti-competitive in that they have used force to keep others out.


This is why attempts at monopolization will always fail (and always have failed) unless the wannabe monopolizers get a little help from their friends in government.


This is clearly untrue in point of positive fact because of the reason you state in the same sentence.


Walmart may be able to cut some sweet deals with other business entities, but it can't cut any deals at all with the laws of economics - no matter how creamy its negotiators are.

That may be so, but they may not care in terms of a long view. Who knows what their plans may be? Potential conspiracies aside ( :) ), even if it takes only twenty years for the giant to collapse under the pressures - hell, only five - that's five years of market distortion. Of course, we then repair to the fact that people chose Walmart with myopic eyes, but I am not sure that argument, while valid, is quite satisfying to all the business owners who were driven out of the market not by free competition, but by the collusion of government with the big-dog to destroy the freedom of the markets.

That all aside, it is clear that no single factor quite defines the problem sufficiently. Collusion, force, consumer greed and stupidity... all contribute.


So should every profit-seeking business. There is nothing wrong with that.

Did not mean to imply it was.


The only question to be concerned about is whether they have used force to quash their competition.


Clearly they have.


Making clever deals (secretly or otherwise) with vendors, suppliers & manufacturers does not violate this standard.


But those with "government" clearly do.


Before building new stores, big retailers like Walmart, Target, etc. will often seek and acquire special anti-competitive accomodations from local municipal governments - such as agreements that other big retailers will not be permitted to erect new stores in the area (this is typically done by the city fathers refusing zoning easements to newcomers, or other such tactics). These kinds of shenanigans are perfectly legitimate causes to denounce and condemn Walmart et al.

And there we have it.

[Occam's Banana]

Let us not be naive to the fact that Walmart has been decidedly anti-competitive in that they have used force to keep others out.

A fact which I was the first to explicitly acknowledge later in the same post. No one is being naive here.

I was addressing the issue in the context of simple price competition - which was the only issue cited by the poster to whom I originally responded (a context which you preserved in your quotations of me in both your initial reply and subsequent rejoinder).

The poster to whom I originally responded (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?502838-America-is-in-Decay-How-We-Fix-It&p=6346695&viewfull=1#post6346695) - and your response (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?502838-America-is-in-Decay-How-We-Fix-It&p=6346970&viewfull=1#post6346970) to my response (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?502838-America-is-in-Decay-How-We-Fix-It&p=6346729&viewfull=1#post6346729) - made no explicit references to illegitimately forcible inhibitions of competition. I was the the first to make such an explicit reference, in post #38 (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?502838-America-is-in-Decay-How-We-Fix-It&p=6347084&viewfull=1#post6347084).


This is clearly untrue in point of positive fact because of the reason you state in the same sentence.

:confused: It is clearly true in point of positive fact precisely because of the conditional ("unless ...") stated in the same sentence.

[Ender]

It doesn't matter what arrangements they make with vendors, suppliers and manufacturers (secretly or otherwise). If they manage to drive competitors out of business by undercutting those erstwhile competitors' prices, and subsequently try to jack prices up over market clearing prices, then they'll just be greasing the skids for more of the very competition they've just gone to such pains to eliminate. (And if they don't jack their prices up above market clearing prices ... well, then, there's not really anything to complain about in the first place.)

This is why attempts at monopolization will always fail (and always have failed) unless the wannabe monopolizers get a little help from their friends in government.

Walmart may be able to cut some sweet deals with other business entities, but it can't cut any deals at all with the laws of economics - no matter how creamy its negotiators are.



So should every profit-seeking business. There is nothing wrong with that.

The only question to be concerned about is whether they have used force to quash their competition.

Making clever deals (secretly or otherwise) with vendors, suppliers & manufacturers does not violate this standard.



I haven't assumed that markets are being allowed to clear, which is precisely why I offered the parenthetical.

Before building new stores, big retailers like Walmart, Target, etc. will often seek and acquire special anti-competitive accomodations from local municipal governments - such as agreements that other big retailers will not be permitted to erect new stores in the area (this is typically done by the city fathers refusing zoning easements to newcomers, or other such tactics). These kinds of shenanigans are perfectly legitimate causes to denounce and condemn Walmart et al.

But none of these things were mentioned by BV2, to whom I was replying. BV2 made reference only to price competition - and whatever Walmart's sins may be, offering cheaper prices is NOT one of them.

On. The. Nose.

The reason Walmart gets continued bad press is because it refuses to unionize.

Sounds good to me.

[nobody's_hero]

I'm kind of hoping for a supervirus or Bubonic plague, something of that nature. Somehow only libertarians survive.

[helmuth_hubener]

Behold, the Collapse:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C0Sdtg0UkAA1LjC.jpg

(hat tip to Rand Paul)

[H. E. Panqui]

...helmuth, what's even more hideous is that we'd all be better off if MANY MANY of the 'employed' stayed home, smoked dope and watched cartoons all day long rather than 'doing their stinking, contrived, tax-sucking 'job'!...

...paying for the illions of minions and their 30-year retirements at the villages in florida gonna be fun helmuth!!..;)

[ThePaleoLibertarian]

Localist, personal traditionalism is a fine thing for an individual to pursue, but it won't save any civilization. The cultural power the media has is always more powerful than, say, the family culture. I live in Progressistan, USA and I can't tell you how many pink-haired ultra-progs came here from conservative parts of the country, with traditional upbringings.

[helmuth_hubener]

...

[helmuth_hubener]

Localist, personal traditionalism is a fine thing for an individual to pursue, but it won't save any civilization. The cultural power the media has is always more powerful than, say, the family culture. I live in Progressistan, USA and I can't tell you how many pink-haired ultra-progs came here from conservative parts of the country, with traditional upbringings.

Not as traditional an upbringing as you think, maybe. Well, actually probably just as traditional as you think, I'm sure you have a realistic picture of how people generally live, but not as traditional as what I'm thinking of and proposing. Just a little bit traditional is too little, too late. Strong medicine is needed.

The culture in your home is what you make it. His much influence does MTV exert upon the Amish? It's *my* home, not theirs! I'm going to live the way *I* think optimal.

And that's the nice thing about this proposal: unilateral implementation. I am not only thinking about and proposing this, like so many policy proposals that that's as far as they can go. I'm also doing my best to *live* it! Right now! And no one can stop me! Mwa ha ha! Even if civilization is not saved, I'm saving my own line. *We're* gonna survive! (or at least die harder than 90-99% of the masses).

As for saving civilization, I am thinking all you need is maybe 1% of people -- certainly 5% would be enough -- joining up with the Throw-Back Revival Program. In three generations they will be the elite of society running everything and everyone else will be sort of irrelevant.

A little kick from science wouldn't hurt either. Come on, pheromone therapy! You, are our only hope.

[osan]

Why on earth would anyone want to save civilization? That makes as much sense as two monkeys humping a football.

[H. E. Panqui]

helmuth pines for norman rockwell andy opie and goober: "As for saving civilization, I am thinking all you need is maybe 1% of people -- certainly 5% would be enough -- joining up with the Throw-Back Revival Program. In three generations they will be the elite of society running everything and everyone else will be sort of irrelevant..."

:cool:

...[psssst...helmuth doesn't listen to me, so could one of his fellow conservative republicrats ask him which era he'd like for everyone to be throw-back...the genocide of the native american era?...the chattel slavery era?...the civil war era?...the corporate tru$t era?...the world war 1 era?...the pre-women's suffrage era?...the great depression era?...the world war 2 era?...the korean war era?...the vietnam war era?....

...a little specificity would help, helmuth...;)

[Superfluous Man]

helmuth pines for norman rockwell andy opie and goober: "As for saving civilization, I am thinking all you need is maybe 1% of people -- certainly 5% would be enough -- joining up with the Throw-Back Revival Program. In three generations they will be the elite of society running everything and everyone else will be sort of irrelevant..."

:cool:

...[psssst...helmuth doesn't listen to me, so could one of his fellow conservative republicrats ask him which era he'd like for everyone to be throw-back...the genocide of the native american era?...the chattel slavery era?...the civil war era?...the corporate tru$t era?...the world war 1 era?...the pre-women's suffrage era?...the great depression era?...the world war 2 era?...the korean war era?...the vietnam war era?....

...a little specificity would help, helmuth...;)

Actually, if anybody tries to answer any of those questions, they risk getting banned for questioning Helmuth's motives. And I fear that you yourself might be at risk just for asking them.

I just got back from a lengthy ban, where I have no idea what I posted that prompted it, but that's all they told me was the cause.

[helmuth_hubener]

I just got back from a lengthy ban, where I have no idea what I posted that prompted it, but that's all they told me was the cause.

Well I wondered where you had been. Welcome back!

I don't know why you were banned either, but it was not due to any actions or complaints on my part.

As for Hank, and you if you have this question: I would say the Victorian Era would be a good goal to shoot for, for optimal adult lifestyle, and possibly one or two generations previous for optimal child-rearing.

[helmuth_hubener]

Why on earth would anyone want to save civilization?

An interesting perspective. Care to elaborate? I'd like to hear your thoughts and any ideas you may have. Particularly, I enjoy actionable ideas.

[helmuth_hubener]

Localist, personal traditionalism is a fine thing for an individual to pursue, but it won't save any civilization.

For you too, I would be very interested to know what ideas you have that you think would work, ThePaleoLibertarian.

This thread isn't just supposed to be about my ideas. Let's hear everybody out, put our brains together and save American civilization!

[osan]

An interesting perspective. Care to elaborate? I'd like to hear your thoughts and any ideas you may have. Particularly, I enjoy actionable ideas.

What has so-called "civilization" brought to humanity on the whole? What is the net result? I submit that it has been nothing better than disease, misery, poverty, destruction, and death.

It is so very easy to dismiss my claim, what with so many people pointing to the "miracles" of civilization in the form of technology and concepts that presumably did not exist prior to men becoming civilized. But when one conducts even a comparatively cursory but competently noiseless analysis of human civilization, it becomes rather rapidly clear that these claims of the purported miracles are eminently questionable. Once again, words matter: they form our thoughts and our thoughts form our reality. Depending upon the exact presumptions under which one chooses to labor, civilization may be deemed as a blessing, a curse, or any combination of the two.

But what does it really mean to be "civilized"? That, too, may change depending on one's presuppositions. But let me not wax too pedantic and come to my own box of brass tacks. The very word itself, the verb "to civilize", to me means to domesticate; to bring to heel; to break the nature of.

We are, at our cores, wild animals. To believe anything less than this is to lie to oneself. It is this wildness that is the very embodiment of our freedom, that thing for which so many here claim to pine and to which they tell the world their honors and fortunes are pledged. But how can this be when most people fail to understand the most basic aspects of their own nature? Any suggestion of the true nature of men gives rise to the deepest and most violent revulsion in the vast majority, and that is the reason the world is what it is: people want pretty slavery and nothing whatsoever to do with actual freedom.

Even my Canon of Proper Human Relations is a lie because it compromises the true nature of men away for the sake of the illusions of peace and security, and that is the unvarnished truth. You want pure and wild freedom? I do. You, most likely, do not - but I shall speak for no other man. True freedom is largely terrifying. Imagine another man attempting to kill you for a stick of gum. While unlikely in a truly free world, it becomes a very real possibility. However, when we look at it more circumspectly, it is not appreciably more likely than under our current cultural circumstance. In point of practice, it may in fact be less likely for reasons I hope will become apparent shortly. Imagine it: we have literally millions of "laws" on the books and yet people still murder each other for the most inanely flimsy reasons. Law is NOTHING. Human nature and the decisions of the individual man are EVERYTHING.

The difference between being a savage and a civilian is almost precisely this: the savage assumes full responsibility for his every action, whereas the civilian renounces the greatest proportion of responsibility for that which he thinks, feels, and chooses, preferring to pass them off onto his fellows. But in doing this he abnegates his sovereignty, tossing his sacred freedoms to the wind because he wishes to live his life in he manner of an ill-bred child in preference to being an actual adult.

In a savage society, every man is free to do precisely as he pleases. If he wishes to walk up to a stranger and attempt to put a sword through the man's belly, that is his choice, just as it is today, all false appearances of "law and order" notwithstanding. The only difference lies in what happens next. In either case of savage and civilian, the intended target may not cotton to the notion of being run-through. The only question then remaining is, "who will prevail?", and generally speaking we may say that it is anyone's guess because combat is inherently non-linear.

But if as assume Johnny is successful in running his blade to the hilt into Tommy's belly, what then? In purest terms, nothing. Johnny is alive, if a bit blood-soaked, and Tommy is skewered. In more real terms, however, if Tommy survives, Johnny faces the risks and dangers of retaliation: the classic vendetta, perhaps at Tommy's hands. Whether Tommy dies or lives, Johnny may in either event face the same risk of vendetta, whether at Tommy's hands or those of Tommy's family, friends, or other agents on his behalf.

There need be no contrived legislation to pose Johnny's hazard, as is the case today. In the savage world, just as in the civilized, the only threats to Johnny in the wake of his choice are other human beings. The difference between the two worlds is that the savage is honest, whereas the civilized is endlessly otherwise. The savage society is honest about how such things work, whereas the civil society lies endlessly about justice and, <CoughHackWheezeGagChokeSputter> impartiality. What a sad and obscene joke it all is.

I greatly prefer the savage world precisely because it forces people to be responsible for the things they think, say, feel, and do. The civilized world renders men as imbecilic infants, whose heads become filled with the most idiotic of notions that aim to treat their fellows with gross and often felonious disrespect without having to face any consequences for their perfidies. And they rely upon the machinations of men in suits to pass edicts that guarantee the ability to get away even with literal murder in more than the rare and passing case. The list of ways in which this has been made manifest could take us weeks or even months of dedicated discourse here in order to name them all.

The civilized man has been taught to believe in a great and endlessly harmful raft of lies about the savage world. For instance, he has been taught that savages are wildly undisciplined maniacs with nothing but rape and murder on their tiny, misshapen minds, every second of every day. The most cursory analytic consideration of this assertion quickly exposes its raw and suppurating absurdity. Generally speaking, people like being alive and do the best they can to ensure they remain that way. In this, the savage is no different from the civilian. Given this, how long does anyone think a savage society would last if being savage meant endless killing and destruction? It would be over in matters of days; weeks at best. This has never been the case in general terms where savage societies have been concerned. They have survived the millennia just fine. Certainly they have many examples of one group wiping from the earth all traces of another, but this is no different from civilized people. Just consider the countless millions, savages and civilians alike, slaughtered by the Roman church, or the Pharaohs. How about the kings of Europe; the emperors of the various east-Asian empires including but not limited to China and Japan; the empires of South and Middle Americas? Africa? Middle-east? The lists are pretty long.

Can anyone point to an example where a savage society has so much as attempted to do what Stalin and Mao did, much less actually accomplish it?

So far as I can see, civilization has been the grandest show of smoke and mirrors in all human history. People have fallen for the false miracles of architecture, technology, and the hideous idolatry thereby raised in so many forms. Truly, where civilization has been concerned, the medium has always been the message: pure power - don't mess with us. The typical modern man whines about "muh roads", "muh internet", and so on down a nauseatingly long list of things that, were they never to have to into existence, would not be missed by these girly-men. I cannot begin to count the number of people who have used these sorts of miserable examples as the justification for demanding that every man submit to their visions of pretty slavery.

The repulsive "leftie" demands not only to be allowed to suck another man's penis, but that everyone praise him for it. The similarly repugnant "righty" defines freedom more broadly, but still ends up with pretty slavery as his vision of paradise on earth. Can't suck another man's weenie, but can carry a gun. And damn it if most of them want "muh gummint" to provide them with the force needed to compel the compliance of others, no matter who gets hurt or how shitty someone else's quality of life may turn out for them due directly because of said applications of force.

And just look at the pure absurdity of it all. For example, Obama signed this EO and that; and that; and that. Now the Trump says he's a gwyne undo it all with the stroke of a pen. There's your "civilization"; back and forth like a lethal yoyo moving in whichever direction those currently in power decide it shall swing. It is pure whim, and as often as not, caprice. Few give a true damn about your rights. Most don't even care about their own rights, save to the paltry extents their limited and frightened little selves auto-circumscribe and build their own prison walls at the sadly narrow delimiters dictated by their willful ignorance, cowardice, avarice, and indolence.

Similarly, some people attempt to justify our slavery because it has provided all the miracles of modern medicine. Once again, the absurdity of this is of such a nature and degree as to leave the thinking man numb in his thoughts. For one thing, the attitude is reflective of the determination to squelch all risk from life. It's the same old rotten saw about wanting something for nothing; in this case, wanting all the perceived benefits of "freedom" without having to pony up for any of the costs. This is the mindset of thieves and dull, ill-bred children, rather than proper adults.

It would be instructive to note that were all these miracles of modern medicine not available, several things would happen. For one thing, people would SLOW DOWN. Their physical movements would become more careful and deliberate in a world where a broken leg or even a cut could mean death. They would slow down their mouths greatly, the necessities of a truer reality driving them to put their brains in gear long prior to engaging their yaps. Why? Because to speak ill-advisedly could result in one becoming severely injured or even being killed. Death is a wonderful advisor, by and large.

A savage land would be different in so many ways precisely because the prospect of death or dismemberment at the hands of other humans, or even just happenstance, as the result of one's poorly considered behavior would teach one deep and abiding respect for his fellows, as well as the cold and hard realities that surround him. He would learn and practice REAL respect, vis-à-vis this thin and hollow gasbag shell so many today mistakenly conflate with actual respect. By "respect", I do not mean the modern and comparatively superficial notion of esteem and the sense of worth, but rather the more ancient meaning, which goes something as follows:


deference to a right...or someone...[recognized] to have certain rights...; proper acceptance or courtesy; acknowledgment

There are so many intertwining layers of the various aspects of this that I am certain a very large, laborious, and verbose tome or three could be written on the matter of what it means to respect another human being in the sense that is relevant to this discussion. It has nothing to do with bunnies, light, love, and sucking each other's weenies. It has everything to do with recognizing the just and valid claims of other men such that one refrains from trespassing upon them with intent and making whole that which has been insulted when done so by accident.

There really is no space to say all I could say on the matter in a single post, lest I receive the dreaded "TLDR".

Suffice to say that this is a topic that is broad, endlessly deep, and goes on well beyond the horizon. For my money, civilization is more bad than good. Yes, without it there would be little to no modern medicine, but how many have considered the possibility that without the rest of the steaming pile that has been heaped upon us over the centuries, maybe most of the diseases we so deeply dread such as cancer, HIV, etc. may never have come to any notable rise in the first place? How much of that which we suffer can we give thanks for to our forebears who polluted the living hell out of the land, air, and seas? Are we so cock-sure that the ever climbing cancer rates are not attributable to such causes and would have come to what they are today, even if we had we forgone civilization, in favor of the savage life?

And I reiterate the fact that despite all these miracles and laws, people appear today to be more miserable in their spirits than ever their savage forebears seem to have been. Civilization has done nothing as much as it has fought the natural order of the planet. Our technologies and medicine have resulted in a world choking on nearly 8 billion people. The idiotic religions of the civilized world have given rise to thoughts so poisonous, yet so deeply and I daresay terminally ingrained that we fail to see the folly to which we have committed ourselves, preferring to stand before that full-length mirror as we watch ourselves masturbate. That, to me, is the insanity of civilization; it is the codification, formalization, and deification of raving, howling madness.

And for those Christians (just to pick on one of many prime candidate classes) who might chafe at the notion that their religion is somehow less-than sane in any aspect, I would point out that had men remained as savages, there would have been no need for God to send a messiah in the first place. Think on that awhile... if you dare do so honestly and with open mind.

I have absolutely no mental/emotional need for civilization. I have a physical one because it is nearly impossible to survive as a savage in a civilized world. But would that I could trade all this for the simpler and healthier life - and make no error in deeming be some ignorant dilettante who pines for something of which he knows nothing. I know well enough the totality of what would be required in order to have my preference and be happy with it. I would gladly relinquish all knowledge as it stands in favor of that which the lifestyle in question would require. That is how much I prefer freedom to even the most lavish of gilt cages. I am a wild animal living in the civilized world and have been miserable for it, much like the most pathetic sight of my life when driving through the zoo in Bridgeton NJ and seeing that black panther in a small cage, pacing back and forth all day long, its life reduced to mere existence. It broke my heart to small shards to bear witness to that unholy sight and it took me years to squelch the urge to go there at night and free them all, which would not have helped them.

In a word, civilization sucks.

The minority of one has written.

[H. E. Panqui]

helmuth offers: "I would say the Victorian Era would be a good goal to shoot for, for optimal adult lifestyle,"


:cool:

...yes, i believe the white folk at the top of the pyramid did well in the land of "the city of london"...but come on...ever read any dickens, will durant?...

[i take it helmuth isn't a 'darkie'] ;)

[helmuth_hubener]

helmuth offers: "I would say the Victorian Era would be a good goal to shoot for, for optimal adult lifestyle,"


:cool:

...yes, i believe the white folk at the top of the pyramid did well in the land of "the city of london"...but come on...ever read any dickens, will durant?...

[i take it helmuth isn't a 'darkie'] ;)
Everyone's political opinions, and indeed to a fair extent their opinions on everything, are determined by what they think they know about history.

And not only does the history need not be true, it need not even claim to be true! Fictional accounts can be just as persuasive, indeed are almost invariably more persuasive! Even though the author is totally upfront about the work being fictional, and the consumer supposedly "knows" it's fictional (in some irrelevant, higher-reasoning corner of his brain), nevertheless it is stored as reality.

Because the author need not let historical reality get in the way of his agenda, he is free to exaggerate, fabricate, and craft his story with the Platonic ideals of the concepts he's trying to bring out. No need for subtlety, ambiguity, countervailing facts, nor alternative explanations and ways of looking at the facts. No facts at all! Nothing to mudle up the picture or get in the way of the advancement of his hypothesis.

It's not hard to see why fiction is so much more powerful and persuasive a conveyor of history. Nor why it is that Charles Dickens, a novelist, is today the top historical authority on the 19th century for the vast majority of the English-speaking world.

[Son_of_Liberty90]

What has so-called "civilization" brought to humanity on the whole? What is the net result? I submit that it has been nothing better than disease, misery, poverty, destruction, and death.

It is so very easy to dismiss my claim, what with so many people pointing to the "miracles" of civilization in the form of technology and concepts that presumably did not exist prior to men becoming civilized. But when one conducts even a comparatively cursory but competently noiseless analysis of human civilization, it becomes rather rapidly clear that these claims of the purported miracles are eminently questionable. Once again, words matter: they form our thoughts and our thoughts form our reality. Depending upon the exact presumptions under which one chooses to labor, civilization may be deemed as a blessing, a curse, or any combination of the two.

But what does it really mean to be "civilized"? That, too, may change depending on one's presuppositions. But let me not wax too pedantic and come to my own box of brass tacks. The very word itself, the verb "to civilize", to me means to domesticate; to bring to heel; to break the nature of.

We are, at our cores, wild animals. To believe anything less than this is to lie to oneself. It is this wildness that is the very embodiment of our freedom, that thing for which so many here claim to pine and to which they tell the world their honors and fortunes are pledged. But how can this be when most people fail to understand the most basic aspects of their own nature? Any suggestion of the true nature of men gives rise to the deepest and most violent revulsion in the vast majority, and that is the reason the world is what it is: people want pretty slavery and nothing whatsoever to do with actual freedom.

Even my Canon of Proper Human Relations is a lie because it compromises the true nature of men away for the sake of the illusions of peace and security, and that is the unvarnished truth. You want pure and wild freedom? I do. You, most likely, do not - but I shall speak for no other man. True freedom is largely terrifying. Imagine another man attempting to kill you for a stick of gum. While unlikely in a truly free world, it becomes a very real possibility. However, when we look at it more circumspectly, it is not appreciably more likely than under our current cultural circumstance. In point of practice, it may in fact be less likely for reasons I hope will become apparent shortly. Imagine it: we have literally millions of "laws" on the books and yet people still murder each other for the most inanely flimsy reasons. Law is NOTHING. Human nature and the decisions of the individual man are EVERYTHING.

The difference between being a savage and a civilian is almost precisely this: the savage assumes full responsibility for his every action, whereas the civilian renounces the greatest proportion of responsibility for that which he thinks, feels, and chooses, preferring to pass them off onto his fellows. But in doing this he abnegates his sovereignty, tossing his sacred freedoms to the wind because he wishes to live his life in he manner of an ill-bred child in preference to being an actual adult.

In a savage society, every man is free to do precisely as he pleases. If he wishes to walk up to a stranger and attempt to put a sword through the man's belly, that is his choice, just as it is today, all false appearances of "law and order" notwithstanding. The only difference lies in what happens next. In either case of savage and civilian, the intended target may not cotton to the notion of being run-through. The only question then remaining is, "who will prevail?", and generally speaking we may say that it is anyone's guess because combat is inherently non-linear.

But if as assume Johnny is successful in running his blade to the hilt into Tommy's belly, what then? In purest terms, nothing. Johnny is alive, if a bit blood-soaked, and Tommy is skewered. In more real terms, however, if Tommy survives, Johnny faces the risks and dangers of retaliation: the classic vendetta, perhaps at Tommy's hands. Whether Tommy dies or lives, Johnny may in either event face the same risk of vendetta, whether at Tommy's hands or those of Tommy's family, friends, or other agents on his behalf.

There need be no contrived legislation to pose Johnny's hazard, as is the case today. In the savage world, just as in the civilized, the only threats to Johnny in the wake of his choice are other human beings. The difference between the two worlds is that the savage is honest, whereas the civilized is endlessly otherwise. The savage society is honest about how such things work, whereas the civil society lies endlessly about justice and, <CoughHackWheezeGagChokeSputter> impartiality. What a sad and obscene joke it all is.

I greatly prefer the savage world precisely because it forces people to be responsible for the things they think, say, feel, and do. The civilized world renders men as imbecilic infants, whose heads become filled with the most idiotic of notions that aim to treat their fellows with gross and often felonious disrespect without having to face any consequences for their perfidies. And they rely upon the machinations of men in suits to pass edicts that guarantee the ability to get away even with literal murder in more than the rare and passing case. The list of ways in which this has been made manifest could take us weeks or even months of dedicated discourse here in order to name them all.

The civilized man has been taught to believe in a great and endlessly harmful raft of lies about the savage world. For instance, he has been taught that savages are wildly undisciplined maniacs with nothing but rape and murder on their tiny, misshapen minds, every second of every day. The most cursory analytic consideration of this assertion quickly exposes its raw and suppurating absurdity. Generally speaking, people like being alive and do the best they can to ensure they remain that way. In this, the savage is no different from the civilian. Given this, how long does anyone think a savage society would last if being savage meant endless killing and destruction? It would be over in matters of days; weeks at best. This has never been the case in general terms where savage societies have been concerned. They have survived the millennia just fine. Certainly they have many examples of one group wiping from the earth all traces of another, but this is no different from civilized people. Just consider the countless millions, savages and civilians alike, slaughtered by the Roman church, or the Pharaohs. How about the kings of Europe; the emperors of the various east-Asian empires including but not limited to China and Japan; the empires of South and Middle Americas? Africa? Middle-east? The lists are pretty long.

Can anyone point to an example where a savage society has so much as attempted to do what Stalin and Mao did, much less actually accomplish it?

So far as I can see, civilization has been the grandest show of smoke and mirrors in all human history. People have fallen for the false miracles of architecture, technology, and the hideous idolatry thereby raised in so many forms. Truly, where civilization has been concerned, the medium has always been the message: pure power - don't mess with us. The typical modern man whines about "muh roads", "muh internet", and so on down a nauseatingly long list of things that, were they never to have to into existence, would not be missed by these girly-men. I cannot begin to count the number of people who have used these sorts of miserable examples as the justification for demanding that every man submit to their visions of pretty slavery.

The repulsive "leftie" demands not only to be allowed to suck another man's penis, but that everyone praise him for it. The similarly repugnant "righty" defines freedom more broadly, but still ends up with pretty slavery as his vision of paradise on earth. Can't suck another man's weenie, but can carry a gun. And damn it if most of them want "muh gummint" to provide them with the force needed to compel the compliance of others, no matter who gets hurt or how $#@!ty someone else's quality of life may turn out for them due directly because of said applications of force.

And just look at the pure absurdity of it all. For example, Obama signed this EO and that; and that; and that. Now the Trump says he's a gwyne undo it all with the stroke of a pen. There's your "civilization"; back and forth like a lethal yoyo moving in whichever direction those currently in power decide it shall swing. It is pure whim, and as often as not, caprice. Few give a true damn about your rights. Most don't even care about their own rights, save to the paltry extents their limited and frightened little selves auto-circumscribe and build their own prison walls at the sadly narrow delimiters dictated by their willful ignorance, cowardice, avarice, and indolence.

Similarly, some people attempt to justify our slavery because it has provided all the miracles of modern medicine. Once again, the absurdity of this is of such a nature and degree as to leave the thinking man numb in his thoughts. For one thing, the attitude is reflective of the determination to squelch all risk from life. It's the same old rotten saw about wanting something for nothing; in this case, wanting all the perceived benefits of "freedom" without having to pony up for any of the costs. This is the mindset of thieves and dull, ill-bred children, rather than proper adults.

It would be instructive to note that were all these miracles of modern medicine not available, several things would happen. For one thing, people would SLOW DOWN. Their physical movements would become more careful and deliberate in a world where a broken leg or even a cut could mean death. They would slow down their mouths greatly, the necessities of a truer reality driving them to put their brains in gear long prior to engaging their yaps. Why? Because to speak ill-advisedly could result in one becoming severely injured or even being killed. Death is a wonderful advisor, by and large.

A savage land would be different in so many ways precisely because the prospect of death or dismemberment at the hands of other humans, or even just happenstance, as the result of one's poorly considered behavior would teach one deep and abiding respect for his fellows, as well as the cold and hard realities that surround him. He would learn and practice REAL respect, vis-à-vis this thin and hollow gasbag shell so many today mistakenly conflate with actual respect. By "respect", I do not mean the modern and comparatively superficial notion of esteem and the sense of worth, but rather the more ancient meaning, which goes something as follows:



There are so many intertwining layers of the various aspects of this that I am certain a very large, laborious, and verbose tome or three could be written on the matter of what it means to respect another human being in the sense that is relevant to this discussion. It has nothing to do with bunnies, light, love, and sucking each other's weenies. It has everything to do with recognizing the just and valid claims of other men such that one refrains from trespassing upon them with intent and making whole that which has been insulted when done so by accident.

There really is no space to say all I could say on the matter in a single post, lest I receive the dreaded "TLDR".

Suffice to say that this is a topic that is broad, endlessly deep, and goes on well beyond the horizon. For my money, civilization is more bad than good. Yes, without it there would be little to no modern medicine, but how many have considered the possibility that without the rest of the steaming pile that has been heaped upon us over the centuries, maybe most of the diseases we so deeply dread such as cancer, HIV, etc. may never have come to any notable rise in the first place? How much of that which we suffer can we give thanks for to our forebears who polluted the living hell out of the land, air, and seas? Are we so cock-sure that the ever climbing cancer rates are not attributable to such causes and would have come to what they are today, even if we had we forgone civilization, in favor of the savage life?

And I reiterate the fact that despite all these miracles and laws, people appear today to be more miserable in their spirits than ever their savage forebears seem to have been. Civilization has done nothing as much as it has fought the natural order of the planet. Our technologies and medicine have resulted in a world choking on nearly 8 billion people. The idiotic religions of the civilized world have given rise to thoughts so poisonous, yet so deeply and I daresay terminally ingrained that we fail to see the folly to which we have committed ourselves, preferring to stand before that full-length mirror as we watch ourselves masturbate. That, to me, is the insanity of civilization; it is the codification, formalization, and deification of raving, howling madness.

And for those Christians (just to pick on one of many prime candidate classes) who might chafe at the notion that their religion is somehow less-than sane in any aspect, I would point out that had men remained as savages, there would have been no need for God to send a messiah in the first place. Think on that awhile... if you dare do so honestly and with open mind.

I have absolutely no mental/emotional need for civilization. I have a physical one because it is nearly impossible to survive as a savage in a civilized world. But would that I could trade all this for the simpler and healthier life - and make no error in deeming be some ignorant dilettante who pines for something of which he knows nothing. I know well enough the totality of what would be required in order to have my preference and be happy with it. I would gladly relinquish all knowledge as it stands in favor of that which the lifestyle in question would require. That is how much I prefer freedom to even the most lavish of gilt cages. I am a wild animal living in the civilized world and have been miserable for it, much like the most pathetic sight of my life when driving through the zoo in Bridgeton NJ and seeing that black panther in a small cage, pacing back and forth all day long, its life reduced to mere existence. It broke my heart to small shards to bear witness to that unholy sight and it took me years to squelch the urge to go there at night and free them all, which would not have helped them.

In a word, civilization sucks.

The minority of one has written.

I don't necessarily agree, but for those of you who didn't read this whole thing, here is a summary:

Rousseau, the noble savage. Man is born free, yet everywhere he is in chains.

[helmuth_hubener]

That was quite the epic post, osan.

You and Julius Evola have a lot in common. Have you ever read him?

[Ender]

Everyone's political opinions, and indeed to a fair extent their opinions on everything, are determined by what they think they know about history.

And not only does the history need not be true, it need not even claim to be true! Fictional accounts can be just as persuasive, indeed are almost invariably more persuasive! Even though the author is totally upfront about the work being fictional, and the consumer supposedly "knows" it's fictional (in some irrelevant, higher-reasoning corner of his brain), nevertheless it is stored as reality.

Because the author need not let historical reality get in the way of his agenda, he is free to exaggerate, fabricate, and craft his story with the Platonic ideals of the concepts he's trying to bring out. No need for subtlety, ambiguity, countervailing facts, nor alternative explanations and ways of looking at the facts. No facts at all! Nothing to mudle up the picture or get in the way of the advancement of his hypothesis.

It's not hard to see why fiction is so much more powerful and persuasive a conveyor of history. Nor why it is that Charles Dickens, a novelist, is today the top historical authority on the 19th century for the vast majority of the English-speaking world.

Don't dismiss Dickens; he wrote the truth of his times and he knew them very well.

He spent his childhood in debtors prison with his father, who had been sent there. Dickens was let out daily to go out and work and then came home to prison on a nightly basis. Oliver Twist is a parable of the life of the poor in Dickens' day. A Tale of Two Cities, besides being an amazing piece of literature, shows real life for the English & French, during the French Revolution.

[osan]

That was quite the epic post, osan.

You and Julius Evola have a lot in common. Have you ever read him?

Never even heard of him.

I am shamefully ill-read.

[Natural Citizen]

Everyone's political opinions, and indeed to a fair extent their opinions on everything, are determined by what they think they know about history.


Dang, helmuth. That's deep, brother. True, too.

[osan]

I don't necessarily agree, but for those of you who didn't read this whole thing, here is a summary:

With what do you find yourself in disagreement? It would be interesting to discuss different points of view... if you want to, that is.


Rousseau, the noble savage. Man is born free, yet everywhere he is in chains.

Never really read Rousseau, but only of him. Noble? Maybe. For me, more like a practically wise soul who treasures his own life, as well as his freedom. Because of this regard, plus his grasp of the equal standing of his fellows, all backed up ultimately by the potential for devastating force in response to trespass, he consciously chooses circumspection in his every word, thought, and deed. The savage is, on average, a true warrior; the mean civilian metering not so much as the palest reflection thereof.

[Okie RP fan]

The younger generations have been lost thanks to the indoctrination factories (public schools).

Kids need to be able to be free and explore and be just that: kids. BUT, they need some structure as well and it's up to the parents to provide that structure. They need to be properly educated and disciplined, not like the ways they do it now in public schools. But from a more personal level. That's why it's so important for the parents to be more active with their children.

I could add that we need a slightly more educated populace (ala what Tom Woods preaches - well roundedness and people need to explore tech schools and other trades instead of just college college college). On top of people not being so lazy. Sure, do whatever you want, but hard work and working hard is known to be good for humans and our minds. Of course what has happened is we are given crap "educations" through the public school system that prepares us to be good little slaves to corporations and we chase the bone by working ourselves to stressful levels and kissing asses. None of that is healthy.

Start there and the nation will begin to heal itself in other ways. Just my personal take, but despite what some reports may say about this country having more college graduates, etc. I truly feel deep down this country has become progressively more ignorant and slavish.

We need to be strong individuals who are engaged in our communities.

[LibForestPaul]

God died century ago. All of humanity is struggle with nihilism, and bringing back God will do nothing but bring back another Stalin or Mao. No thank you. Currently we have materialism and consumerism...but this is collapsing with the rise of the third world.

[osan]

The younger generations have been lost thanks to the indoctrination factories (public schools).

Ain't the schools' fault. It's ours for letting those things exist in the first place.


Kids need to be able to be free and explore and be just that: kids. BUT, they need some structure as well and it's up to the parents to provide that structure. They need to be properly educated and disciplined, not like the ways they do it now in public schools. But from a more personal level. That's why it's so important for the parents to be more active with their children.

Sure, but how do you expect that to happen when the parents are nothing better than textbook examples of arrested development - children themselves?

I hate being such a broken record, but nothing is going to change for the better without some monumental reason for doing so. One's children turning effectively brainless, *****, and disinterested in ever becoming independent adults is apparently insufficient a concern to get parents to do something. That's where my "reset event" comes in; something so all-consumingly disruptive of life that people are presented with the immediate choice to adapt or die.

If the average man knew how deep in the kimchee his life was, his mind would implode.


I could add that we need a slightly more educated populace (ala what Tom Woods preaches - well roundedness and people need to explore tech schools and other trades instead of just college college college).

Slightly? Is that sarcasm?


We need to be strong individuals who are engaged in our communities.

Good luck finding them both. As for the rest, it is from the likes of this from which you have to pick:


https://bullybloggers.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/tsss2012-postcard.jpeg

[Okie RP fan]

Ain't the schools' fault. It's ours for letting those things exist in the first place.



Sure, but how do you expect that to happen when the parents are nothing better than textbook examples of arrested development - children themselves?

I hate being such a broken record, but nothing is going to change for the better without some monumental reason for doing so. One's children turning effectively brainless, *****, and disinterested in ever becoming independent adults is apparently insufficient a concern to get parents to do something. That's where my "reset event" comes in; something so all-consumingly disruptive of life that people are presented with the immediate choice to adapt or die.

If the average man knew how deep in the kimchee his life was, his mind would implode.



Slightly? Is that sarcasm?



Good luck finding them both. As for the rest, it is from the likes of this from which you have to pick:


https://bullybloggers.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/tsss2012-postcard.jpeg

Ha, I didn't realize I put "slightly." Of course it's far more than slightly.
But yea, agreed on counter points.

[Son_of_Liberty90]

With what do you find yourself in disagreement? It would be interesting to discuss different points of view... if you want to, that is.



Never really read Rousseau, but only of him. Noble? Maybe. For me, more like a practically wise soul who treasures his own life, as well as his freedom. Because of this regard, plus his grasp of the equal standing of his fellows, all backed up ultimately by the potential for devastating force in response to trespass, he consciously chooses circumspection in his every word, thought, and deed. The savage is, on average, a true warrior; the mean civilian metering not so much as the palest reflection thereof.

To be honest, I really think you are making sweeping generalizations trashing civilization and everything it has produced.

Moreover, I feel you are strongly romanticizing the world of the "savage", even though I agree with you that civilization can be very 'herd' mentality sometimes. But the way you describe the "Savage' as some noble warrior sounds really romanticized not backed up by historical data.

In the world of the savage, you could die of a toothache. Technology allows you to post your comments to a forum that can be read by people all over the world. Yes, we have done cruel in the name of civilization, but we have done much good also, that cannot be discounted.

I think what you should be directing your anger towards is our over-reliance on technology turning us into drones. Wishing for some cataclysmic event to create this Darwinian fantasy where only the strong survive is not the solution either. Everytime a catastrophe occurs, the elite are right there to manipulate it and corrupt our minds.

Read up on the work of Nicholas Carr, I think you will really resonate with what he has to say about tech over-reliance depleting our abilities to concentrate, focus, and navigate. "The Glass Cage" and "What the Internet is doing to our brains" is a good start.

[osan]

To be honest, I really think you are making sweeping generalizations trashing civilization and everything it has produced.

That is not quite what I've done. I have asserted that the net result of civilization has, for me, proven a loss - a negative. There are all manner of cool things, but are they worth the price we pay? For me, they are not. For me, freedom is the only thing that matters. It matters to me more than health, family, love, etc. because without it all of the things that matter to me are diminished; tinted with the taint of evil that other men impose upon me, regardless of how innocuous it may seem in the eyes of others. I submit that those people, those civilians, are incapable of judging objectively because they have accepted the mastery of other men over them; they have sold themselves cheaply to their brethren as the lowest of whores, in exchange for mere trifles. They have sold their souls to men no better than themselves; no more suited to be master than they, and for no other reasons than that they are become timid, fearful, small beings not by any dint of the divine dice, but by their own choice.

They have chosen slavery for themselves out of their avarice for the illusion of something that exists nowhere in reality, save the confines of their stunted minds and their souls, which they have shriveled by the work of their own wills against themselves. They chose the gilt cage for the sake of the ignorance for which they wantonly demand for themselves in favor of the deeper truths because they refuse the full cost of those truths which demand acceptance of the ugly alongside the beautiful. They lie to themselves out of mere and petty convenience for the sake of justifying their indolence, fed by their fears of being active and the result of their choosing to view such action as a curse, rather than as the divine blessing which is part and parcel of one's life. It reminds me of the domestic products ads from the 1960s that portrayed woman's life in the home as drudgery, thereby enticing them to by this cleanser and that kitchen appliance.

Their Fear, Avarice, Ignorance, and Lassitude combine into a self-reinforcing juggernaut of personal corruption and debauchery in such a way as they come to crave the disease of spirit that cripples, consumes, and inevitably kills them, much as the heroin addict craves the fix he comes to worship as his raison d'être; his effective God. And just as with the addict, the poisons with which he bullheadedly imbues his life saps away his vigor and independence, reducing him to the most wretched habit imaginable, all the while lying to himself either about how wonderful or unavoidable his life is. He is a despicable coward and a parasite worthy of no regard or respect from anyone, which is largely why he gets none, save for that weak-tea lie that average men almost universally mistake for properly proportioned veneration of those around them. They talk a big talk about "respect" and yet fail to walk a single word of it beyond the metes and bounds of their narrowly delimited and paltry milquetoast-spirits.


Moreover, I feel you are strongly romanticizing the world of the "savage", even though I agree with you that civilization can be very 'herd' mentality sometimes. But the way you describe the "Savage' as some noble warrior sounds really romanticized not backed up by historical data.

You mistake my tone, sir. It is no romanticization you catch, but my willingness to accept all that comes with being a savage, the bad as well as the good. You might argue that there is good with the bad in being civilized, just as there is with the savage life. To that I agree fully, and to which you might then ask "so why not choose civilization above savagery?", to which my response is "because with civilization, one's freedom wings away into the mists of eternity, never again to be seen nor felt."


In the world of the savage, you could die of a toothache.

Your implicit judgment of such a circumstance as a perhaps petty and unnecessary cause of presumably great evil is based on your referential frame as a civilian. Had you grown up a savage, you would perforce hold a different view because that which defines you as a human being would be fundamentally different from what it is now. Does that mean a savage would wish to die of a toothache? Decidedly not. What it does mean, however, is that he would rather die that way than trade his soul away just to avoid such a fate. But in the end, he would still face that possibility, the net result of such a choice being that he has only reduced the probability of such an outcome. But so far as I can see, the vast and overwhelming majority of men never allow their considerations to go that far into such matters. Rather, they choose to believe that because they sold their souls for the sake of modern dentistry that they are now immune from such ultimate results. That is the coward's mind at work and nothing better.


Technology allows you to post your comments to a forum that can be read by people all over the world. Yes, we have done cruel in the name of civilization, but we have done much good also, that cannot be discounted.

And we have done it all as slaves, regardless of how expansive and prettily appointed our cages may be in some cases. My friend Gene, may his good soul rest in peace, said something to me in front of his house in Williams AZ when he was dying of lung cancer, the simple words cutting through me like a scalpel when he said, "we all build our own prisons." To this day those words hit me like a ton of bricks for the sheer and irresistible force they carry. Few words have I ever heard or read that have stricken me as have those six simple utterances.

What you appear to be showing me is that these cheap and false miracles are price enough for your soul. Do I mistake your meaning?


I think what you should be directing your anger towards is our over-reliance on technology turning us into drones.

That is precisely what I am doing, at least in part. But my machinations run well beyond this.


Wishing for some cataclysmic event to create this Darwinian fantasy where only the strong survive is not the solution either.

You base this assertion upon what, precisely? I base mine on the clear and apparently obstinate trend toward ever deeper servitude and decay. I observe people very closely and with few exceptions they are now living in a perceptual environment that is highly detached from reality - a condition the psychologists call "psychosis". There is no indication to suggest people will choose to move away from this trend of going ever more deeply into deranged perception unless the general environment becomes such that they only choice is to adopt a more rational way or be consumed.

Why has it become possible for so many weak people to survive? Because the artifice of men has made it so. Remove the crutch and how well do you think your garden-variety tranny would fare? Progressives/liberals? Without substantial alteration of their basic thoughts and attitudes, they would die precisely because raw, hard reality makes no accommodation for stupidity beyond a very low threshold value. The stupidities of civilized living are now so vast and overwhelming that I feel we must be nearing a nexus. I could be wrong, of course, but this is what I see.

Consider the vast homosexualization [sic] of children today. Any parent who says they don't care if their child turns out gay is either a liar or a blithering idiot. It is one thing if one's child shoots out of mom's vagina on a jet of flame, scorching the paint from the walls. It is another issue entirely to have one's child directed into homosexuality through the influences of culture and the schools. If I found someone actively recruiting one of my children in such a matter, they would shortly join the ranks of others who have mysteriously vanished without trace. Perhaps little green men in a UFO carted them off the Mars.




Everytime a catastrophe occurs, the elite are right there to manipulate it and corrupt our minds.

Blaming the "elite" for this is like blaming a viper for biting. It is in their nature and one can reliably set their clocks by it. The fault is ours and ours alone. We are responsible for our thoughts, education, training, feelings, decisions, and the actions taken pursuant thereto. Yes, there is something to be said for those who commit fraud and one can indeed become the victim of such scheming, but let us not overstate that case. Let us be honest and admit that in the vast majority of cases we are manipulated because it serves some end of ours to allow it. Perhaps it is convenient to believe X. Perhaps we seek to be victims so we may play that card and avoid responsibility. After all, someone suggests something your higher self knows is bullshit, yet you accept it because another side of you might be curious about it, or perhaps the possibility of the promised result gets your avarice all lubed up, figuring you cannot lose because if things don't work out, you can always cry and claim that you have been the victim of deception. But in reality, you were in knowing collusion, hedging your bets all the while.

My point is that far more often than not, we aren't victims at all, but rather aversive children wanting what we want, but unwilling to pay for it out of our own pockets. So when the smiling stranger comes, promising that which you cravenly desire at no cost, well shoot... you'd have to be a sucker not to sign on the dotted line for that, eh? Never mind the pen filled with your own blood.


Read up on the work of Nicholas Carr, I think you will really resonate with what he has to say about tech over-reliance depleting our abilities to concentrate, focus, and navigate. "The Glass Cage" and "What the Internet is doing to our brains" is a good start.

I will look him up, thanks... that is, if I can concentrate long enough to read it. :)

I know I am a one-man freak show. I've been that way since I was a teenager. I am so averse to any restriction upon myself that I cannot wear even jewelry, which is ironic for a guy who used to be a pattern maker at casting houses on 47th St in NYC. The sensation of it irritates me endlessly - I can never put it out of my awareness that something is binding me, no matter how slightly. I once managed to wear a silver chain with a sterling straight razor on it for about six months when I was 20 years old. I finally could not stand it any longer and into a drawer it all went.

Freedom is everything to me. It is a presupposition, the absence of which reduces life to mere existence, even for those who zoot about in their Citation Xs for brunch in Paris. I do not claim to be right, or even sane. What I am is a wild animal living in a cage, pacing back and forth, biding my time until death takes me. Therefore, I really have nothing to lose in looking forward to events that might leave the gate ajar. I recognize no authority over me beyond myself and most people would hate me for it, calling my self-respect "arrogance" and "selfish"... as if the words and opinions of idiots held any sway with me.

[H. E. Panqui]

Everyone's political opinions, and indeed to a fair extent their opinions on everything, are determined by what they think they know about history.

And not only does the history need not be true, it need not even claim to be true! Fictional accounts can be just as persuasive, indeed are almost invariably more persuasive! Even though the author is totally upfront about the work being fictional, and the consumer supposedly "knows" it's fictional (in some irrelevant, higher-reasoning corner of his brain), nevertheless it is stored as reality.

Because the author need not let historical reality get in the way of his agenda, he is free to exaggerate, fabricate, and craft his story with the Platonic ideals of the concepts he's trying to bring out. No need for subtlety, ambiguity, countervailing facts, nor alternative explanations and ways of looking at the facts. No facts at all! Nothing to mudle up the picture or get in the way of the advancement of his hypothesis.

It's not hard to see why fiction is so much more powerful and persuasive a conveyor of history. Nor why it is that Charles Dickens, a novelist, is today the top historical authority on the 19th century for the vast majority of the English-speaking world.

:cool:

...helmuth, unless you are over 120 years old, you too are relying on 'accounts' of 'the victorian era' for which you pine...[maybe helmuth caught a bronte sisters,' etc., pbs masterpiece theater series he fell in love with?...c'mon, admit it, helmuth!] ;)

...btw, i believe you'll find dickens also wrote some 'non-fiction' about the deplorable conditions of those at the bottom of the victorian pyramid...but i imagine when you are dreaming of 'the victorian era' you picture yourself at the top of the victorian pyramid...i suspect you probably don't put yourself in the shoes of irish catholic farmers, the indians the british brutalized according to historian will durant, etc. subjects galore of the british empire...

[[helmuth, rumor has it that in the chains of history the bloody british empire made hitler look like an ineffective piker in the murder and forced-labor realm!!...] :eek:

[Son_of_Liberty90]

That is not quite what I've done. I have asserted that the net result of civilization has, for me, proven a loss - a negative. There are all manner of cool things, but are they worth the price we pay? For me, they are not. For me, freedom is the only thing that matters. It matters to me more than health, family, love, etc. because without it all of the things that matter to me are diminished; tinted with the taint of evil that other men impose upon me, regardless of how innocuous it may seem in the eyes of others. I submit that those people, those civilians, are incapable of judging objectively because they have accepted the mastery of other men over them; they have sold themselves cheaply to their brethren as the lowest of whores, in exchange for mere trifles. They have sold their souls to men no better than themselves; no more suited to be master than they, and for no other reasons than that they are become timid, fearful, small beings not by any dint of the divine dice, but by their own choice.

They have chosen slavery for themselves out of their avarice for the illusion of something that exists nowhere in reality, save the confines of their stunted minds and their souls, which they have shriveled by the work of their own wills against themselves. They chose the gilt cage for the sake of the ignorance for which they wantonly demand for themselves in favor of the deeper truths because they refuse the full cost of those truths which demand acceptance of the ugly alongside the beautiful. They lie to themselves out of mere and petty convenience for the sake of justifying their indolence, fed by their fears of being active and the result of their choosing to view such action as a curse, rather than as the divine blessing which is part and parcel of one's life. It reminds me of the domestic products ads from the 1960s that portrayed woman's life in the home as drudgery, thereby enticing them to by this cleanser and that kitchen appliance.

Their Fear, Avarice, Ignorance, and Lassitude combine into a self-reinforcing juggernaut of personal corruption and debauchery in such a way as they come to crave the disease of spirit that cripples, consumes, and inevitably kills them, much as the heroin addict craves the fix he comes to worship as his raison d'être; his effective God. And just as with the addict, the poisons with which he bullheadedly imbues his life saps away his vigor and independence, reducing him to the most wretched habit imaginable, all the while lying to himself either about how wonderful or unavoidable his life is. He is a despicable coward and a parasite worthy of no regard or respect from anyone, which is largely why he gets none, save for that weak-tea lie that average men almost universally mistake for properly proportioned veneration of those around them. They talk a big talk about "respect" and yet fail to walk a single word of it beyond the metes and bounds of their narrowly delimited and paltry milquetoast-spirits.



You mistake my tone, sir. It is no romanticization you catch, but my willingness to accept all that comes with being a savage, the bad as well as the good. You might argue that there is good with the bad in being civilized, just as there is with the savage life. To that I agree fully, and to which you might then ask "so why not choose civilization above savagery?", to which my response is "because with civilization, one's freedom wings away into the mists of eternity, never again to be seen nor felt."



Your implicit judgment of such a circumstance as a perhaps petty and unnecessary cause of presumably great evil is based on your referential frame as a civilian. Had you grown up a savage, you would perforce hold a different view because that which defines you as a human being would be fundamentally different from what it is now. Does that mean a savage would wish to die of a toothache? Decidedly not. What it does mean, however, is that he would rather die that way than trade his soul away just to avoid such a fate. But in the end, he would still face that possibility, the net result of such a choice being that he has only reduced the probability of such an outcome. But so far as I can see, the vast and overwhelming majority of men never allow their considerations to go that far into such matters. Rather, they choose to believe that because they sold their souls for the sake of modern dentistry that they are now immune from such ultimate results. That is the coward's mind at work and nothing better.



And we have done it all as slaves, regardless of how expansive and prettily appointed our cages may be in some cases. My friend Gene, may his good soul rest in peace, said something to me in front of his house in Williams AZ when he was dying of lung cancer, the simple words cutting through me like a scalpel when he said, "we all build our own prisons." To this day those words hit me like a ton of bricks for the sheer and irresistible force they carry. Few words have I ever heard or read that have stricken me as have those six simple utterances.

What you appear to be showing me is that these cheap and false miracles are price enough for your soul. Do I mistake your meaning?



That is precisely what I am doing, at least in part. But my machinations run well beyond this.



You base this assertion upon what, precisely? I base mine on the clear and apparently obstinate trend toward ever deeper servitude and decay. I observe people very closely and with few exceptions they are now living in a perceptual environment that is highly detached from reality - a condition the psychologists call "psychosis". There is no indication to suggest people will choose to move away from this trend of going ever more deeply into deranged perception unless the general environment becomes such that they only choice is to adopt a more rational way or be consumed.

Why has it become possible for so many weak people to survive? Because the artifice of men has made it so. Remove the crutch and how well do you think your garden-variety tranny would fare? Progressives/liberals? Without substantial alteration of their basic thoughts and attitudes, they would die precisely because raw, hard reality makes no accommodation for stupidity beyond a very low threshold value. The stupidities of civilized living are now so vast and overwhelming that I feel we must be nearing a nexus. I could be wrong, of course, but this is what I see.

Consider the vast homosexualization [sic] of children today. Any parent who says they don't care if their child turns out gay is either a liar or a blithering idiot. It is one thing if one's child shoots out of mom's vagina on a jet of flame, scorching the paint from the walls. It is another issue entirely to have one's child directed into homosexuality through the influences of culture and the schools. If I found someone actively recruiting one of my children in such a matter, they would shortly join the ranks of others who have mysteriously vanished without trace. Perhaps little green men in a UFO carted them off the Mars.





Blaming the "elite" for this is like blaming a viper for biting. It is in their nature and one can reliably set their clocks by it. The fault is ours and ours alone. We are responsible for our thoughts, education, training, feelings, decisions, and the actions taken pursuant thereto. Yes, there is something to be said for those who commit fraud and one can indeed become the victim of such scheming, but let us not overstate that case. Let us be honest and admit that in the vast majority of cases we are manipulated because it serves some end of ours to allow it. Perhaps it is convenient to believe X. Perhaps we seek to be victims so we may play that card and avoid responsibility. After all, someone suggests something your higher self knows is bull$#@!, yet you accept it because another side of you might be curious about it, or perhaps the possibility of the promised result gets your avarice all lubed up, figuring you cannot lose because if things don't work out, you can always cry and claim that you have been the victim of deception. But in reality, you were in knowing collusion, hedging your bets all the while.

My point is that far more often than not, we aren't victims at all, but rather aversive children wanting what we want, but unwilling to pay for it out of our own pockets. So when the smiling stranger comes, promising that which you cravenly desire at no cost, well shoot... you'd have to be a sucker not to sign on the dotted line for that, eh? Never mind the pen filled with your own blood.



I will look him up, thanks... that is, if I can concentrate long enough to read it. :)

I know I am a one-man freak show. I've been that way since I was a teenager. I am so averse to any restriction upon myself that I cannot wear even jewelry, which is ironic for a guy who used to be a pattern maker at casting houses on 47th St in NYC. The sensation of it irritates me endlessly - I can never put it out of my awareness that something is binding me, no matter how slightly. I once managed to wear a silver chain with a sterling straight razor on it for about six months when I was 20 years old. I finally could not stand it any longer and into a drawer it all went.

Freedom is everything to me. It is a presupposition, the absence of which reduces life to mere existence, even for those who zoot about in their Citation Xs for brunch in Paris. I do not claim to be right, or even sane. What I am is a wild animal living in a cage, pacing back and forth, biding my time until death takes me. Therefore, I really have nothing to lose in looking forward to events that might leave the gate ajar. I recognize no authority over me beyond myself and most people would hate me for it, calling my self-respect "arrogance" and "selfish"... as if the words and opinions of idiots held any sway with me.

Osan, I don't have time to respond to all of your points but I can tell you a lot of what you say speaks to me.

However, once again I believe you are only looking at one side of the picture. If you just look through the lens of the media, then sure, you will see a corrupt world full of weaklings.

But what about the other side we're not being shown? The other side of Americans still with the good work ethic and willingness to stand up and fight.

You said it yourself, ultimately we are responsible, so that would conclude civilization itself is not evil, but our sloth, and avarice (and over-reliance on technology). If we got to this point, then we still have the capacity to change, even if it appears we do not.

[helmuth_hubener]

[There are still] Americans still with the good work ethic and willingness to stand up and fight.

You said it yourself, ultimately we are responsible, so that would conclude civilization itself is not evil, but our sloth

Indeed, humans are naturally slothful. Very slothful. That's our natural state.

Civilization is, essentially, the end result of thousands of years of build-up using certain types of child-rearing (high control, highly demanding) and cultural technologies (mostly religion) to break human behavior out of its natural rut and yank it, kicking and screaming, up to a higher plane of existence.

For me, I prefer that higher plane. I think lounging about like baboons -- which is what savages do -- is unbearably boring and what a waste of human potential. I do not aspire to get in tune with my "nature" as a primate and live like the other primates, scratching in the dirt, occasionally screeching or biting at my fellows when I don't immediately get what I want. There's nothing noble about that to me.

I, instead, aspire to be godly. Indeed, I aspire! To aspire at all, to have ambition, to have drive, to have discipline, to create on a grand and beautiful scale, these are not biologically natural behaviors for humans.

Constitutionally, we're a lot like baboons. We just want to lay around and scratch ourselves.

Civilization wrenches us out of that and allows us to make ourselves something more.

[Son_of_Liberty90]

Indeed, humans are naturally slothful. Very slothful. That's our natural state.

Civilization is, essentially, the end result of thousands of years of build-up using certain types of child-rearing (high control, highly demanding) and cultural technologies (mostly religion) to break human behavior out of its natural rut and yank it, kicking and screaming, up to a higher plane of existence.

For me, I prefer that higher plane. I think lounging about like baboons -- which is what savages do -- is unbearably boring and what a waste of human potential. I do not aspire to get in tune with my "nature" as a primate and live like the other primates, scratching in the dirt, occasionally screeching or biting at my fellows when I don't immediately get what I want. There's nothing noble about that to me.

I, instead, aspire to be godly. Indeed, I aspire! To aspire at all, to have ambition, to have drive, to have discipline, to create on a grand and beautiful scale, these are not biologically natural behaviors for humans.

Constitutionally, we're a lot like baboons. We just want to lay around and scratch ourselves.

Civilization wrenches us out of that and allows us to make ourselves something more.

Ah, laziness may be our natural state, but let's not forget that human civilization started out as hunter-gatherers banding together against predators and the elements.

We knew that it was a harsh world and had to cooperate in order to survive.

But we HAD to be tough in order to survive.

What's interesting about the past 2 centuries of technological innovation is that it has encouraged automated behavior, and hence or proclivities to be slothful.

Since technological innovation is inevitable, where our destiny lies is harnessing technology to
encourage hard work and diligence, so we don't become Wall-E blob people. That, to me, is the prime challenge of our age.

[helmuth_hubener]

But we HAD to be tough in order to survive.

What's interesting about the past 2 centuries of technological innovation is that it has encouraged automated behavior, and hence or proclivities to be slothful.

Since technological innovation is inevitable, where our destiny lies is harnessing technology to
encourage hard work and diligence, so we don't become Wall-E blob people. That, to me, is the prime challenge of our age. It is the prime challenge of *every* civilization, one at which they have all failed.

The toughness builds the civ. The people are getting tougher and tougher, more and more disciplined, every generation, rising to greater and greater heights.

The great thing is, it works. A new culture and a new temperament is forged, over many generations, which achieves tremendous success and prosperity.

The problem is, it works. The extreme prosperity that results undermines all the cultural technology that built the civ in the first place. The people revert back to their natural tendencies. They get soft and lazy. And so it all collapses, or is conquered by barbarians.

This is not new. It happened with Rome, too. High technology. High living. Extreme decadence. Extreme prosperity. They had it all. And then collapse. It has happened with every civilization. Their success is their doom.

It will happen to us, too, if we let it. It is already happening.


Oh, and I can't let this go: technological innovation is NOT inevitable. Indeed, it is the exception, not the rule.

[Son_of_Liberty90]

It is the prime challenge of *every* civilization, one at which they have all failed.

The toughness builds the civ. The people are getting tougher and tougher, more and more disciplined, every generation, rising to greater and greater heights.

The great thing is, it works. A new culture and a new temperament is forged, over many generations, which achieves tremendous success and prosperity.

The problem is, it works. The extreme prosperity that results undermines all the cultural technology that built the civ in the first place. The people revert back to their natural tendencies. They get soft and lazy. And so it all collapses, or is conquered by barbarians.

This is not new. It happened with Rome, too. High technology. High living. Extreme decadence. Extreme prosperity. They had it all. And then collapse. It has happened with every civilization. Their success is their doom.

It will happen to us, too, if we let it. It is already happening.


Oh, and I can't let this go: technological innovation is NOT inevitable. Indeed, it is the exception, not the rule.

I'm in agreement with most of what you say. As we've said, civilization itself is not bad. The problem is figuring out how the break the cycle of prosperity > sloth > destruction.

Like the kid from rich parents who stays rich and diligent because he maintains the principles he was brought up with. Some rich kids become spoiled and lazy then crash & burn, but others are raised right and do not become lazy and spoiled. The outcome is not inevitable.


Oh, and I can't let this go: technological innovation is NOT inevitable. Indeed, it is the exception, not the rule.

This is tricky. I don't like saying inevitable, but if you look at recent history, in most circumstances we've always embraced new tech in the name of progress.

Look at the transhumanist movement - they are drooling at the prospect of AI taking over (or infusing machine parts into our organic bodies).

Scary stuff

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Bng4q9MHJo

[jllundqu]

Ah, laziness may be our natural state, but let's not forget that human civilization started out as hunter-gatherers banding together against predators and the elements.

We knew that it was a harsh world and had to cooperate in order to survive.

But we HAD to be tough in order to survive.

What's interesting about the past 2 centuries of technological innovation is that it has encouraged automated behavior, and hence or proclivities to be slothful.

Since technological innovation is inevitable, where our destiny lies is harnessing technology to
encourage hard work and diligence, so we don't become Wall-E blob people. That, to me, is the prime challenge of our age.

The noose is already tightening. With advances in AI, VR, the internet-of-things, etc.... it will only be a matter of time before most of the population will be hooked into the matrix in a very real sense, getting every desire and impulse immediately fulfilled. There will be a holdout of the population, myself included... us Luddites who will consciously eschew such chains.... but it will get to the point where there will be two classes of people... those who are plugged in and are a part of the new cyber-tech world, where your literal brain is connected to the web and can absorb mass amounts of data as well as communicate instantaneously to any place on the globe and beyond... and the meek... those simple folk who see the wisdom in not pissing away their humanity for the promise of techno-immortality.

We've got 15-20 years, tops. I'll be on my hobby farm in the middle of nowhere living in peace... what the rest of the world chooses is not my concern.

[Son_of_Liberty90]

The noose is already tightening. With advances in AI, VR, the internet-of-things, etc.... it will only be a matter of time before most of the population will be hooked into the matrix in a very real sense, getting every desire and impulse immediately fulfilled. There will be a holdout of the population, myself included... us Luddites who will consciously eschew such chains.... but it will get to the point where there will be two classes of people... those who are plugged in and are a part of the new cyber-tech world, where your literal brain is connected to the web and can absorb mass amounts of data as well as communicate instantaneously to any place on the globe and beyond... and the meek... those simple folk who see the wisdom in not pissing away their humanity for the promise of techno-immortality.

We've got 15-20 years, tops. I'll be on my hobby farm in the middle of nowhere living in peace... what the rest of the world chooses is not my concern.

It's the transhumanist agenda. See the above video.

Again referencing Nick Carr and his work, "What the Internet is doing to our Brains" and "The Glass Cage."

[jllundqu]

It's the transhumanist agenda. See the above video.

Again referencing Nick Carr and his work, "What the Internet is doing to our Brains" and "The Glass Cage."

Oh I know all about Transhumanism, Singulatarians, and the like.... Watch the show Black Mirror for some very cool sci-fi visions of our future

[Son_of_Liberty90]

Oh I know all about Transhumanism, Singulatarians, and the like.... Watch the show Black Mirror for some very cool sci-fi visions of our future

By "Cool" visions do you mean depressing ones? :p

[jllundqu]

By "Cool" visions do you mean depressing ones? :p

Among the most disturbing and depressing things I've seen on TV.... but cool to watch

[Son_of_Liberty90]

Among the most disturbing and depressing things I've seen on TV.... but cool to watch

Damn I was hoping you would be telling me it's an optimistic take where humans reign in control of technology. :p

I've seen my share of depressing future visions. It got to a point where it began to mess with my psyche and day to day living so I cut it out of my viewing diet. I honestly think big budget productions like these are being put out their to 'condition' us into acceptance.

AMC "Humans" I view in a similar vein.

[jllundqu]

Damn I was hoping you would be telling me it's an optimistic take where humans reign in control of technology. :p

I've seen my share of depressing future visions. It got to a point where it began to mess with my psyche and day to day living so I cut it out of my viewing diet. I honestly think big budget productions like these are being put out their to 'condition' us into acceptance.

AMC "Humans" I view in a similar vein.

The creators of the show actually stated they make each stand-alone episode as a warning. I actually think people SHOULD watch it because it is meant to show people the bad places we are headed unless we change course.

[CPUd]

The creators of the show actually stated they make each stand-alone episode as a warning. I actually think people SHOULD watch it because it is meant to show people the bad places we are headed unless we change course.

I'm not sure we can change course.

[Son_of_Liberty90]

The creators of the show actually stated they make each stand-alone episode as a warning. I actually think people SHOULD watch it because it is meant to show people the bad places we are headed unless we change course.

Alex Jones does the same thing with his documentaries. (Endgame anyone?)

Does the show offer solutions?

[CPUd]

Alex Jones does the same thing with his documentaries. (Endgame anyone?)

Does the show offer solutions?

Watch the "Nosedive" episode (season 3, ep 1).

[Son_of_Liberty90]

Watch the "Nosedive" episode (season 3, ep 1).

Ok I will

[helmuth_hubener]

I'm not sure we can change course.

I am trying to figure out that new avatar.

Last word is China? Other than that..... <squinting>.....

[helmuth_hubener]

I live in Progressistan, USA and I can't tell you how many pink-haired ultra-progs came here from conservative parts of the country, with traditional upbringings. So, I already mentioned how the "traditional" I'm talking about is about 100 times the FDA-recommended dose the pink-hairs got.

The other thing is: You've got to make it fun! Happy! Enjoyable!

Traditional doesn't mean stifling. If your home is unhappy and depressing, then sure you'll want to get out ASAP and do something as different as possible, because, well, "clearly that doesn't work!"

If, on the other hand, Mom and Dad love each other, if they spend time with the kids, if everybody gets along, works on projects together, and contributes meaningfully to the household once they're old enough, you're going to feel pretty good about yourself and going to be downright proud of your family and aspire to continue the same traditions when you start your own.

[osan]

Osan, I don't have time to respond to all of your points but I can tell you a lot of what you say speaks to me.

However, once again I believe you are only looking at one side of the picture. If you just look through the lens of the media, then sure, you will see a corrupt world full of weaklings.

But what about the other side we're not being shown? The other side of Americans still with the good work ethic and willingness to stand up and fight.

Willing to stand and fight? You mean like the Freemen?

Where is the fight? We should have slaughtered the tyrants going back to 1789 - shoot, back to 8000BC. Any man who attempts to violate another should be murdered with dispatch and without ceremony. Such men and, if need be, their children should be erased from the earth and all living human memory that nothing of their existences be remembered, save that their fate was that which all men who violate others risk. But no. Our forbears stood idly by, lying to themselves, probably out of rank cowardice or dull-witted ignorance. Whatever the case, it was more convenient for them to do nothing than to risk life and limb for the sake of crushing the evil that tainted their lives.

But to be fair to them, many came from places with kings and other tyrants, so conditions here perhaps seemed idyllic. But we've had 228 years to observe the changes and our hindsight should be a powerful motivator for free men to rise and murder their antagonists. But there is mere silence. Therefore, we deserve the humiliations and degradations Theye heap upon us.


You said it yourself, ultimately we are responsible, so that would conclude civilization itself is not evil, but our sloth, and avarice (and over-reliance on technology). If we got to this point, then we still have the capacity to change, even if it appears we do not.

As a matter of normative theory, you are correct. Things do not have to be this way. People could be better than they are on the average.

But they aren't.

We have thousands of years of global testament regarding the actual nature of men. The picture it paints of mean humanity makes that of Dorian Gray appear as the brightest and most angelic countenance Heaven might ever offer. Human beings are mean, dark, and infinitely beastly in their behaviors toward everything, including each other and themselves. What sort of creature do you suppose willfully addicts itself to heroin or meth such that its own existence is diminished and degraded to the point that those around him thank their Maker for the mercy of his death?

What brand of vicious beast rapes his own children? What manner of decayed and mis-designed being do we figure behaves as men behave, killing his own by the hundreds of millions in some cases? What is it upon which we gaze when peering into the mirror, knowing that some of our own kind spend the sorts of energies to contrive bombs that turn into fiery mist entire cities within seconds?

The MRI machines, business farming, modern medicine, space flight, and all the other "miracles" of modern civilization mean absolutely nothing when the other side of the human coin is naught but the most bitterly appalling taint such that God's mind reeled at what he had wrought and has removed himself for the horror he has beheld, knowing that it issued from his hands. Hell, he probably shot himself through the head decades ago in shame and disgust at the evils to which he had given birth through the instrumentality of his human spawn.

We are slaves. Ever stinking last one of us. You. Me. AF. Hitler. THEMME. That's the truly amusing bit in all of it: Theye think they stand above it all, controlling this and manipulating that. Theye, however, are the most abject of all of us. Theire chains are the heaviest and the roughest forged, but they don't realize it. Just as with the rest of us, Theye have build the prisons in which they live and no hydrogen bomb or other device could ever hope to break those impregnable walls.

And so here we all sit, together in a cesspit of befouled thought and perception, thinking the most wildly insane things imaginable and taking them as calm, sane, objective truths. That is why we as a species are doomed and why nothing but radical disruption holds the only likely hope for a better future. Those fucking aliens or that meteor is long overdue. Humanity is lost in a maze of mental frenzy, hurling itself to ever blacker days. If you or anyone thinks that this cycle of self-reinforcing suicide will be broken with reason, good will, or any of the other bullshit notions and lies we like to toss between each other, then all I can say is good luck with it.

The only thing that is going to break this death spiral is brute, callous, merciless force; the kind of force that will leave the great majority of humanity in the dust, crushed under the heel of reality's unfeeling boot. It is only when those who remain are presented with the stark and humiliating choice of charting a very different course or perishing with the rest will hope be relit. Until then, the only place we are heading is downward, right into the maw of hell itself.

Sure, we could end this nonsense in the next five minutes, in theory. But statistical reality is very different from theory and those of us who understand means and what they represent, the raw power there, know that the chances of a better outcome are just this side of zero. That is the horrible and sad truth of it... only for me it isn't really even that sad anymore. I've spent nearly 60 years watching people, how they have decayed in their outward behaviors, and what I have seen is so disgusting that I can no longer say that the obliteration of such reviling attitudes and choices is sad. The only sad thing is that people chose this willingly for themselves. It is akin to Adam, sitting there in Eden, putting a revolver to his head in the midst of paradise. All he has to do is relax and love his life, but for some reason he chooses dissatisfaction and therefore charts for himself a whole other course.

On the average, human beings are nothing better than fucking retards, wholly undeserving of their lives and the beauties of this world. We choose hell in the midst of Eden. How crazy is that, I ask you?

And I maintain that the development of our technologies, all superficial appearances to the contrary notwithstanding, have been a net destructive factor in our lives. I don't give a rat-turd if I can speak to a panel on the wall and get the ho' of my dreams to form from thin air before my eyes and give me a blow job to bring the tears to my eyes; the fact that I cannot drink the water from most natural sources for the shit our forefathers dumped into them just ruins it all. But those are the costs of that which we have and speaking only for myself, not a whit of it was worth the price. No a single cunt-hair of any of it.

While we are on the topic: last night on Netflix I watched "Quest For Fire", a 1981 film with Ron Perlman and Rae Dawn Chong. There is NO DIALOG, as it is a story of pre-verbal men. I cannot recommend it highly enough. Find it on the web if you cannot access Netflix and see it, because it has much to teach, if you can peel away the superficialities. The lessons there are for the ages of all men, and I exaggerate no whit.

Some will look at that life and think it was horrible. I think it was in many ways, yet still preferable in many to what we live today. Nothing is perfect, as the saying goes, and I do not idealize that which is portrayed - very much the opposite. But the men were free in ways we cannot ever know, and for my nickel and all else equal, I would take that over this any time. I don't care how short my life might be, or how brutish. So long as I am free to take my OWN shot at life without the watchful eye of Big Brother upon me, I will choose freedom over civilization any time. When I say I am a wild animal, I am very literal in my meaning. If I behaved as I am moved sometimes, I would be shot. That is the truth of it, and I suspect it is the same for more people than some would be comfortable acknowledging.

There are other avenues of salvation, but I find the likelihood of any of them coming to pass insignificantly low. Lucky for me, my life will soon be over and I will be done with the brutish stupidity of men. Good riddance, I say.

[Son_of_Liberty90]

Willing to stand and fight? You mean like the Freemen?

Where is the fight? We should have slaughtered the tyrants going back to 1789 - shoot, back to 8000BC. Any man who attempts to violate another should be murdered with dispatch and without ceremony. Such men and, if need be, their children should be erased from the earth and all living human memory that nothing of their existences be remembered, save that their fate was that which all men who violate others risk. But no. Our forbears stood idly by, lying to themselves, probably out of rank cowardice or dull-witted ignorance. Whatever the case, it was more convenient for them to do nothing than to risk life and limb for the sake of crushing the evil that tainted their lives.

But to be fair to them, many came from places with kings and other tyrants, so conditions here perhaps seemed idyllic. But we've had 228 years to observe the changes and our hindsight should be a powerful motivator for free men to rise and murder their antagonists. But there is mere silence. Therefore, we deserve the humiliations and degradations Theye heap upon us.

Hmmm, I seem to recall a group of men in Russia that "rose up" and murdered their oppressors. That didnt work out so well.

Rise up, and murder your oppressor, and then what? What will stop 'them' from coming back?

What about Gandhi, MLK, and nonviolent resistance?




As a matter of normative theory, you are correct. Things do not have to be this way. People could be better than they are on the average.

But they aren't.

We have thousands of years of global testament regarding the actual nature of men. The picture it paints of mean humanity makes that of Dorian Gray appear as the brightest and most angelic countenance Heaven might ever offer. Human beings are mean, dark, and infinitely beastly in their behaviors toward everything, including each other and themselves. What sort of creature do you suppose willfully addicts itself to heroin or meth such that its own existence is diminished and degraded to the point that those around him thank their Maker for the mercy of his death?

What brand of vicious beast rapes his own children? What manner of decayed and mis-designed being do we figure behaves as men behave, killing his own by the hundreds of millions in some cases? What is it upon which we gaze when peering into the mirror, knowing that some of our own kind spend the sorts of energies to contrive bombs that turn into fiery mist entire cities within seconds?

Again, ONE SIDE. You are literally just looking at the blackest pits of humanity you can find.

There is another half, and it is GOOD! Look how much we can be caring, selfless, and loving to others.


The MRI machines, business farming, modern medicine, space flight, and all the other "miracles" of modern civilization mean absolutely nothing when the other side of the human coin is naught but the most bitterly appalling taint such that God's mind reeled at what he had wrought and has removed himself for the horror he has beheld, knowing that it issued from his hands. Hell, he probably shot himself through the head decades ago in shame and disgust at the evils to which he had given birth through the instrumentality of his human spawn.

We are slaves. Ever stinking last one of us. You. Me. AF. Hitler. THEMME. That's the truly amusing bit in all of it: Theye think they stand above it all, controlling this and manipulating that. Theye, however, are the most abject of all of us. Theire chains are the heaviest and the roughest forged, but they don't realize it. Just as with the rest of us, Theye have build the prisons in which they live and no hydrogen bomb or other device could ever hope to break those impregnable walls.

[quote]And so here we all sit, together in a cesspit of befouled thought and perception, thinking the most wildly insane things imaginable and taking them as calm, sane, objective truths. That is why we as a species are doomed and why nothing but radical disruption holds the only likely hope for a better future. Those $#@!ing aliens or that meteor is long overdue. Humanity is lost in a maze of mental frenzy, hurling itself to ever blacker days. If you or anyone thinks that this cycle of self-reinforcing suicide will be broken with reason, good will, or any of the other bull$#@! notions and lies we like to toss between each other, then all I can say is good luck with it.


I have been through bouts of depression, but even on my worst days I know this to be untrue. false.

Again, the communist revolution of 1917, the Reign of Terror 1789 France. "radical" changes that brought more destruction.


The only thing that is going to break this death spiral is brute, callous, merciless force; the kind of force that will leave the great majority of humanity in the dust, crushed under the heel of reality's unfeeling boot. It is only when those who remain are presented with the stark and humiliating choice of charting a very different course or perishing with the rest will hope be relit. Until then, the only place we are heading is downward, right into the maw of hell itself.

Sure, we could end this nonsense in the next five minutes, in theory. But statistical reality is very different from theory and those of us who understand means and what they represent, the raw power there, know that the chances of a better outcome are just this side of zero. That is the horrible and sad truth of it... only for me it isn't really even that sad anymore. I've spent nearly 60 years watching people, how they have decayed in their outward behaviors, and what I have seen is so disgusting that I can no longer say that the obliteration of such reviling attitudes and choices is sad. The only sad thing is that people chose this willingly for themselves. It is akin to Adam, sitting there in Eden, putting a revolver to his head in the midst of paradise. All he has to do is relax and love his life, but for some reason he chooses dissatisfaction and therefore charts for himself a whole other course.

On the average, human beings are nothing better than $#@!ing retards, wholly undeserving of their lives and the beauties of this world. We choose hell in the midst of Eden. How crazy is that, I ask you?

BAT$#!T callous, if you ask me. And no, I am not blind. I see goodness here.




And I maintain that the development of our technologies, all superficial appearances to the contrary notwithstanding, have been a net destructive factor in our lives. I don't give a rat-turd if I can speak to a panel on the wall and get the ho' of my dreams to form from thin air before my eyes and give me a blow job to bring the tears to my eyes; the fact that I cannot drink the water from most natural sources for the $#@! our forefathers dumped into them just ruins it all. But those are the costs of that which we have and speaking only for myself, not a whit of it was worth the price. No a single $#@!-hair of any of it.

While we are on the topic: last night on Netflix I watched "Quest For Fire", a 1981 film with Ron Perlman and Rae Dawn Chong. There is NO DIALOG, as it is a story of pre-verbal men. I cannot recommend it highly enough. Find it on the web if you cannot access Netflix and see it, because it has much to teach, if you can peel away the superficialities. The lessons there are for the ages of all men, and I exaggerate no whit.

Sounds interesting, I'll look into it.




Some will look at that life and think it was horrible. I think it was in many ways, yet still preferable in many to what we live today. Nothing is perfect, as the saying goes, and I do not idealize that which is portrayed - very much the opposite. But the men were free in ways we cannot ever know, and for my nickel and all else equal, I would take that over this any time. I don't care how short my life might be, or how brutish. So long as I am free to take my OWN shot at life without the watchful eye of Big Brother upon me, I will choose freedom over civilization any time. When I say I am a wild animal, I am very literal in my meaning. If I behaved as I am moved sometimes, I would be shot. That is the truth of it, and I suspect it is the same for more people than some would be comfortable acknowledging.

There are other avenues of salvation, but I find the likelihood of any of them coming to pass insignificantly low. Lucky for me, my life will soon be over and I will be done with the brutish stupidity of men. Good riddance, I say.

Let me ask you Osan, if we are such a miserable species, why care if you are free? What will freedom bring to us?

By your reasoning, we SHOULD be enslaved, and should not complain, because of how depraved we are.

Your attitude towards humanity is 100% what the elite believe, and use to justify their rule over us.

[osan]

Hmmm, I seem to recall a group of men in Russia that "rose up" and murdered their oppressors. That didnt work out so well.

Rise up, and murder your oppressor, and then what? What will stop 'them' from coming back?

What about Gandhi, MLK, and nonviolent resistance?

Worthless, futile efforts whose bases of action were rotten to begin with. In both cases people replaced on tyrant with another. Without an understanding of proper freedom, much less a love and desire for it, no good shall come of any rebellion. As you note, after the killing is done, what then? In every case I can immediately recall, the victors turned around and marched right back through Hell's gate. People will at times cry that they fight for freedom, but they don't even know what that means, so how can one expect anything but the same old same old?


Again, ONE SIDE. You are literally just looking at the blackest pits of humanity you can find.

Those are the dominant truths. Don't believe me? Go look at the images from Rwanda's 100 day war. How about all them shitty old Jews being bulldozed into pits? One hundred million Chinese... 60-80 million soviets. How about the aftermath of Hiroshima - look at the worst of it and see what we are. That is the truth of mean humanity. And note that I have consistently referred to MEAN humanity - i.e., the AVERAGE. There are plenty of good people. Sadly, they are grotesquely outnumbered by the maniacal filth that befouls the planet.


There is another half, and it is GOOD! Look how much we can be caring, selfless, and loving to others.

A few things. For one, it is nowhere near half. I would call 1% very optimistic. Do not conflate the absence of raging hot warfare on the streets of Anytown USA with goodness. The shit that goes on behind closed doors, were you to become acutely aware of it, would leave you ill. Let is not be naive. I've lived all over the USA and I've hung out in some of the shittiest places in America and I've watched people. I've observed them very closely over decades on the road as a consultant. After all, what in hell else is there to do when you live out of a suitcase for decades? I go hunting - people. I observed the real world of humans... Seattle, Portland, Phoenix, Orlando, Austin, Dallas, Charleston, NYC, Jersey City, East Long Branch, Chicago, Denver, and so on. Humans live wretched existences, far from the center of their natural selves, bent to the will of standards contrived by mad men whose intentions behind their architecture are utterly irrelevant to the reality their idiocies precipitated upon the entire world.

Left to their devices, people would find a different equilibrium from that which these insane tyrannies impose. There would be horrors there, as well, but I would still take those over what we have any day. Yeah, I am probably completely gone 'round the bend. So what.


I have been through bouts of depression, but even on my worst days I know this to be untrue. false.

OK, then perhaps you would tell us precisely how it is that you KNOW this to be false. My mind is wide open and if you can demonstrate my error, I will immediately amend my views.


Again, the communist revolution of 1917, the Reign of Terror 1789 France. "radical" changes that brought more destruction.


Given idiocy fighting against idiocy, what could we possibly expect?

The aristocrats were starving the people that made their lives possible. Idiots.

The revolutionaries acted based upon the barking insanity of what is essentially communism, just prior to Marx's coining of the term and formalizing that stupidity. Idiots.

So you have one band of nitwits fighting another. Once again I ask, what alternate outcome could you possibly expect?


I see goodness here.

Sure. Now picture a one-man life raft in the center of the Atlantic. Now zoom out... keep going... keep going... keep going...

Get the point?


Sounds interesting, I'll look into it.

I do not think you will regret it.


Let me ask you Osan, if we are such a miserable species, why care if you are free? What will freedom bring to us?


I speak of the MEAN, which of necessity leaves the tails of the normal distribution, no matter how narrow the Gaussian. The few of them worth saving are worth the saving no matter how hopelessly outnumbered. In fact, the more grossly the case, the more that tiny minority becomes deserving of salvation. IMO.

Freedom brings only itself. The tyrant is born into each of us, as is the saint. The basic fabric of human thought should be such that any tyrant is killed immediately and without fanfare. Put the people in the right mental frame and freedom would be self-sustaining. Let it be dangerous to so much as suggest anything to invade the rightful territory of another. But no. People mostly want what they want and don't care the cost, so much as most of it issues from the wallets of others.


By your reasoning, we SHOULD be enslaved,

There is that. But that applies only to the willful slave. Free men are exempt, precisely because they assert their claims.


and should not complain, because of how depraved we are.

Once again, true for the willfully compliant.


Your attitude towards humanity is 100% what the elite believe, and use to justify their rule over us.

Um... no. My attitude shows similar elements, but the intersection of my base reasons with Theires = {} (null set).

And for the record, I do not consider myself as one of those worthy of salvage. Indeed, I am least worthy because I know the difference, yet remain idle.

My wish is to see the end of days for the mean man, myself among the damned, just for the slimmest chance that someone left might strike off in a better direction.

[H. E. Panqui]

osan asserts: 'The only thing that is going to break this death spiral is brute, callous, merciless force; the kind of force that will leave the great majority of humanity in the dust, crushed under the heel of reality's unfeeling boot. It is only when those who remain are presented with the stark and humiliating choice of charting a very different course or perishing with the rest will hope be relit. Until then, the only place we are heading is downward, right into the maw of hell itself.'

:eek:

...ummm, please, maybe first at least try DEMANDING/FORCING an honest open 'competition of ideas about government'...as a monetary realist i can tell you that NONE of the goddamned fools currently holding high public office are 'monetary realists'...

...'money' is the greatest man-made control mechanism..it i$ the great $coreboard of life, etc....thi$ $tinking system under which we are en$laved has vitually NEVER been honestly discussed by 'public officials' in public and anyone not a monetary ignoramus [very few] understands that a just, transparent, etc., $ystem would be a boon to mankind...

...quit acting like 'it's hopeless' :rolleyes: when some relatively simple approache$ have NEVER even been discussed!...take that anger, disgust and hatred :mad: [every last $poonful] and direct it at EVERY STINKING ONE OF THE$E BANK$TER PUPPET REPUBLICRAT POLS.!!!...

[get monetary realism...put away the stinking republicrat theorie$]

[helmuth_hubener]

...take that anger, disgust and hatred :mad: [every last $poonful] and direct it at EVERY STINKING ONE OF THE$E BANK$TER PUPPET REPUBLICRAT POLS.!!!...

[get monetary realism...put away the stinking republicrat theorie$]

You are going to be loving me very soon, Hank.