a story of corruption and what a lot of you dont get.

[garrettwombat]

im going to be the one who comes out and says this.
iv been hearing a lot of talk about "it doesnt end with paul, run in your state!"
so this is how i tie grassroots with my message.

all politics are filled with corruption and let me tell you why.
and let me tell you why it is nearly impossible to be a politician without being currupt.
i will not tell my personal experiences on how i know or who i know these things through for the sake of my security. but i will tell you to be advised.

applying to county and city governments in more populated counties:

this may sound silly to a lot of you but this is how the ring works.
and anyone deep in political ties knows this.

you have your builders. (they are on top, yes builders, as in housing)
you have your politicians. (they are the brains of the operation)
you have your drug dealers. (they are the cash flow, and the intimidation)
and they all have there bank. (all the above either use or own it)

your politician can not make money without builders...
builders can not make money without the politician
builders fund the campaign.
while in office, the politicians are the ones who give building permits to allow a builder to do his job. they feed off each other to get started.

now while all the above goes on you have the drug dealers...
they tie in as a cooperation but also as a fear factor.
one word "BRIBES"
NOT ONLY do politicians make ridiculously huge amounts of money off of bribes but you will wind up dead if you do not cooperate with these same drug dealers and there bribes.
so its almost forced to be involved in cooperation for the sake of safety while at the same time make huge amounts of money. (that's why you have lots of people dropping out of office who can not handle it and will give no reason why)

while all of this is going on you have the bank that is owned by the politician who keeps his dirty money there and for him to give out loans to the builders.

in a way, you almost have to be currupt to be inside the system for the sake of your security.


when i say "politician" i mean several positions and they all work more or less in the same way: commissioners, judges, the sheriff, and the mayor.

now when you try to run and you make it publicly known your going to get in and clean house(fix up the place from known corruption) you are putting your life in a huge danger. it will start with bribes to step down if they feel you are a threat. then threats will start if you dont back down, then you can seriously wind up getting hurt or even killed.

i urge all of you who are looking into local office to be prepared and be very careful about what you say to people.

we are fortunate to have a man like Ron paul who has made it to where he has.

and when voting for local offices make sure you look into the people running and that they do not fall under these things:

own a bank
are a lawyer
or have large sums of money.

more than likely if they do or have any of the above they fall into the ring. and just to be safe DO NOT ever vote for anyone that is tied in with those 3 things except a judge.
this is how we stop corruption.


this doesnt apply to every single county, but the majority.
and be careful people. this is real and this is how America works on the small level, its just that on the big level you have lobbyists and such... same amount of corruption just a different ring.



__and im not trying to make an assumption here. all im trying to say is__
"its all a matter of bribing and getting around the law and making money
that's it, nothing more, but that is what corruption is, and it is what has ruined this country."

[mavtek]

I'll keep that in mind, thanks.

[Chomsky]

thanks for clearing the whole thing up, i was confused for a second

[Corydoras]

I can't imagine a bank so small that someone could own it. Aren't Bank of America and Citibank near-monopolies everywhere?

[jmcmsu]

As a current law student and Ron Paul supporter this is the most ridiculous thing I have seen posted on this message board in a long time.
- Don't elect lawyers to local positions???? Are you serious?

Ron Paul has built his campaign on respect for the rule of law and the Constitution. Lawyers build their careers off of the rule of law and the Constitution.

In fact, during Alexis De Tocqueville's visit to America he wrote entire chapters in his book about the importance of lawyers to America's democracy.

"IN visiting the Americans and studying their laws, we perceive that the authority they have entrusted to members of the legal profession, and the influence; that these individuals exercise in the government, are the most powerful existing security against the excesses of democracy" - Tocqueville

"Lawyers belong to the people by birth and interest, and to the aristocracy by habit and taste; they may be looked upon as the connecting link between the two great classes of society." - Tocqueville

For more on why he thought lawyers were crucial to a successful democracy see this link which is directly from his writings. (Scroll down a little bit to Chapter 16).
http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/DETOC/1_ch16.htm

[RonPaulVolunteer]

Well as a law student, you might want to study your state's Constitution, because most expressly forbid Lawyers from running for elected positions. Yes it's true, even if it is never enforced. Take a look!

[RonPaulVolunteer]

So garrettwombat, what happens to your theory when Ron Paul legalizes the constitution, and hence, drugs. No more drug dealers making huge sums of cash, they are out of the picture aren't they?

.

[jmcmsu]

Well as a law student, you might want to study your state's Constitution, because most expressly forbid Lawyers from running for elected positions. Yes it's true, even if it is never enforced. Take a look!

When Ron Paul brings back the Constitution who's going to enforce it if not lawyers? Again a Tocqueville quote; "Armed with the power of declaring the laws to be unconstitutional, the American magistrate perpetually interferes in political affairs. He cannot force the people to make laws, but at least he can oblige them not to disobey their own enactments and not to be inconsistent with themselves."

Of the 55 delegates to the first U.S. Constitutional Convention 35 were lawyers http://www.dunamai.com/articles/American_History/founding_fathers.htm

And as you can see the vast majority of our founding fathers and early Presidents were lawyers
1 George Washington Surveyor, Farmer/plantation owner, Soldier (General of United Army of the Colonies)
2 John Adams Lawyer
3 Thomas Jefferson Writer, Inventor, Lawyer, Architect, Farmer
4 James Madison Lawyer
5 James Monroe Lawyer
6 John Quincy Adams Lawyer
7 Andrew Jackson Soldier, Lawyer
8 Martin Van Buren Lawyer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_Presidents_by_previous_occup ation

[Santana28]

this thread makes something else more clear now... our local paper listed the delegate candidates for the 8th district in Illinois - read this list and read the names and occupations of the delegate candidates for the other presidential candidates...

Republicans fill presidential, delegate slates
December 8, 2007
NEWS-SUN STAFF REPORT

Candidate slates filing Wednesday included:

Eighth Congressional District:

(Paul) Nicholas Betzold, McHenry; Kevin Watts, Hoffman Estates; and Robert Schlereth, Lake Zurich.

(Thompson) State Sen. Matt Murphy of Palatine; former state Rep. Robert Churchill of Lake Villa; John Biestek of Hawthorn Woods.

(Giuliani) McHenry County Sheriff Keith Nygren, Hebron; state Rep. Ed Sullivan Jr. of Mundelein; and Ruth Munson, Elgin.

(Huckabee) Former Gurnee Trustee Mark Ratfelders; Grace Dolan of Hoffman Estates; Tom Morrison of Palatine.

Tenth Congressional District:

(Paul) Michael J. Myers of Deerfield; Paul M. Carlson of Arlington Heights; Craig L. Swanson of Arlington Heights.

(Giuliani) State Rep. Suzanne Bassi of Palatine; former Cook County Republican Park Chairman Gary Skoien, Inverness; Mark W. Peterson, Lincolnshire.

(Huckabee) Mohan Manian, Libertyville; Jennifer Baty, Arlington Heights; Phil Collins, North Chicago.

Thompson's 10th District slate filed last week, as did slates for Romney and McCain in both the county's congressional districts.

------------------

This kind of has me worried...1, because of the aforementioned corruption...and 2, because of the tendency of undecided people to look at the list of names and see something that stands out in their mind and choose it for no other reason. Should the campaign have made more of an effort at getting "reputable" names as delegates vs. normal unknown names?

[Corydoras]

And the other thing is, what do you think constitutes a large sum of money?

[garrettwombat]

listen if any of you think for a second lawyers defend anything other than there client you guys are nuts...

a lawyer does not and cannot up hold the constitution.
only the jury or judge can.

a lawyer goes through thousands of state and local government laws and ordinances

"a lawyer is never wrong."
remember that statement and it is true because there are hundreds of loop holes in the system

when i talk about commisioners, sheriffs, or the mayor you do not need to know the law... when your a judge you do... the judge rules over the lawyers so even if you are a lawyer defending the law and the constitution , the judge and jury is the one you have to please.

im talking about local government here to people, stop bringing up presidents.
why on earth would anyone want a lawyer for local government other than a judge position????

[garrettwombat]

And the other thing is, what do you think constitutes a large sum of money?

millions

[Corydoras]

Why do you make such a big deal of sheriffs? A sheriff doesn't do much except go around and serve papers-- glorified messenger boy.

[garrettwombat]

Why do you make such a big deal of sheriffs? A sheriff doesn't do much except go around and serve papers-- glorified messenger boy.

well i dont really make a big deal about them... im mainly talking of commissioners in my message.

the sheriff does play his roll in all of it though. he can take bribes from crooks and he is the big boss so the deputies, police officers, marshals, and detectives are all under him if you catch my drift.

[Corydoras]

millions

Oh, come on, every retiree has millions. You've gotta be kidding.

[Corydoras]

the sheriff does play his roll in all of it though. he can take bribes from crooks and he is the big boss so the deputies, police officers, marshals, and detectives are all under him if you catch my drift.

Sheriffs must do something different in your part of the country. Hmm.

[Corydoras]

What do commissioners do in your part of the country?

[francisco]

As a current law student and Ron Paul supporter this is the most ridiculous thing I have seen posted on this message board in a long time.
- Don't elect lawyers to local positions???? Are you serious?....



Obviously you're in on it. :rolleyes:

[garrettwombat]

So garrettwombat, what happens to your theory when Ron Paul legalizes the constitution

the sad thing is this is no theory... go ahead and run yourself, you will start to see a situation become surprisingly similar

[greves]

You guys should watch the Showtime (HBO? I forget) series called The Wire. It is about Baltimore, written by a journalist who has been reporting on and exposing Baltimore's politicians, drug dealers, and yes, construction companies for 20 years, and it is in the "realistic fiction" genre, in that most of it is based on real life stories and so could and does happen. I understand exactly what the original poster is talking about, and I'm not sure how much it applies to smaller towns, but cities with population 1 million+, states, and the country... he's speaking the truth.

Corruption is like the arteries, veins, and backbone of politics... it lets the blood money flow to all the right parts, and the whole system would fall in a day if it ever happened to go away - that's why I'm so excited about Ron Paul - I think we'll be seeing a truly free and 100% capitalist society in our lifetimes.

[garrettwombat]

Sheriffs must do something different in your part of the country. Hmm.
a sheriffs job is to organize the spending the commissioners allow them.. he decides what is appropriate for the cash to go to (in all reality though, its up to the commissioners or else the police departments wont get as much money from them)


What do commissioners do in your part of the country?
commissioners regulate where money is spent and on what projects are created and how much money is spent on them.

[garrettwombat]

all i can say is im the son of a something and i hear things something i shouldnt something something

iv been threatened, have my family threatened, iv had things vandalized iv seen murders that occur by "accedents" for reasons.

ill tell you a story about a man who ran for sheriff and won and ended up getting killed by his own deputies.

the former sheriff had it set up as a drug bust and when the deputies got to the sheriffs house they shot and killed him... now the deputies got convicted.. but the people on top sure played the hell out of them, and you cant change time, the deal is always done and the people on top always use pawns for there dirty work.

that wont change the fact we lost our only noncurrupt sheriff and had to bring back our old one because of it.

im not saying it was truly a set up, and im not saying anyone was behind it, but, things like this happen and its mighty strange.

[francisco]

You guys should watch the Showtime (HBO? I forget) series called The Wire. It is about Baltimore, written by a journalist who has been reporting on and exposing Baltimore's politicians, drug dealers, and yes, construction companies for 20 years, and it is in the "realistic fiction" genre, in that most of it is based on real life stories and so could and does happen. I understand exactly what the original poster is talking about, and I'm not sure how much it applies to smaller towns, but cities with population 1 million+, states, and the country... he's speaking the truth.

Corruption is like the arteries, veins, and backbone of politics... it lets the blood money flow to all the right parts, and the whole system would fall in a day if it ever happened to go away - that's why I'm so excited about Ron Paul - I think we'll be seeing a truly free and 100% capitalist society in our lifetimes.

Yeahh THE WIRE!!!

Best TV show, EVER.

Way too complex and nuanced for the average viewer, so it's never achieved high ratings. Unbelievable writing and character development.

Got to start at the beginning, otherwise you'll quickly be lost. Always tape the episode because you'll watch it over and over again and discover something new each time. Also, turn on closed captioning. (DVDs are available on Netflix).

[xao]

In 04' I knew a guy who got threatened when running for city council. He got a phone call threat. He complained to the chief and cheif said he couldn't really do anything. So the just shut off his land line phone and only used his internet phone to make calls and recieve calls(not sure how this works). All his neighbors are gun owners and it's hard to get to this guys house anyway so there's no way anyone could vandalize it. If someone had tried they would have had the whole neighborhood filling them with holes. The moral to this story is, have good neighbors, have some tough guy friends(maybe some MMA type trainers) and be prepared to go a few months of living mainly at home and only going out with a group of friends. Another good thing is to perhaps not have any children or perhaps even a wife if you are going to Run for any important seat.

[dude58677]

listen if any of you think for a second lawyers defend anything other than there client you guys are nuts...

a lawyer does not and cannot up hold the constitution.
only the jury or judge can.

a lawyer goes through thousands of state and local government laws and ordinances

"a lawyer is never wrong."
remember that statement and it is true because there are hundreds of loop holes in the system

when i talk about commisioners, sheriffs, or the mayor you do not need to know the law... when your a judge you do... the judge rules over the lawyers so even if you are a lawyer defending the law and the constitution , the judge and jury is the one you have to please.

im talking about local government here to people, stop bringing up presidents.
why on earth would anyone want a lawyer for local government other than a judge position????


If you are referring to tax lawyers then you are 100 percent correct. They want the Internal Revenue Code to be as complex as possible so they have more to litigate. If you are talking about criminal defense lawyers then you are wrong. They are in it to see that the defendent has a fair trial. Or if it is a lawyer that sues the government for violating the Constitution, this case you are wrong.

But Ron Paul isn't a lawyer and is instead a medical doctor, so this point is moot.

[Truth Warrior]

99% of lawyers give all of the rest of them a bad name. :D

[dude58677]

99% of lawyers give all of the rest of them a bad name. :D
:D

[jmcmsu]

If you are referring to tax lawyers then you are 100 percent correct. They want the Internal Revenue Code to be as complex as possible so they have more to litigate. If you are talking about criminal defense lawyers then you are wrong. They are in it to see that the defendent has a fair trial. Or if it is a lawyer that sues the government for violating the Constitution, this case you are wrong.

But Ron Paul isn't a lawyer and is instead a medical doctor, so this point is moot.

I have plenty of friends who want to be tax lawyers and they are supporting Ron Paul and the abolition of the IRS. I guess my point is you shouldn't immediately make a judgment call on someone based solely off the fact they have a J.D. I'm going to be a lawyer and I wanted to go to law school because I believe in the Constitution and the rule of law. I would be pretty upset if I tried to run for office someday as a "Ron Paul Republican" and somebody was telling others not to vote for me solely because I was a lawyer.

[Revolution9]

I have plenty of friends who want to be tax lawyers and they are supporting Ron Paul and the abolition of the IRS. I guess my point is you shouldn't immediately make a judgment call on someone based solely off the fact they have a J.D. I'm going to be a lawyer and I wanted to go to law school because I believe in the Constitution and the rule of law. I would be pretty upset if I tried to run for office someday as a "Ron Paul Republican" and somebody was telling others not to vote for me solely because I was a lawyer.

You take an oath to The British Bar and all your materials for your profession are copywritten by them,. I believe that is a conflict of interest..well hidden but there still none the same.

Best
Randy

[Mr. White]

Politics is corrupt? Who'd have thought? Money organizes people, organized people equal votes, votes generate money for the voted and the organizer. You don't get elected if you don't promise people something, that's how it works.

*shrug*

Oh, law student here.

[philipsantamaria]

all this anti-lawyer talk is ridiculous.

A man's occupation does not make him corrupt. The corrupt man corrupts his occupation.

[tmg19103]

In PA the counties have a Court of Common Pleas with roughly 14-20 judges depending on size of county and three county commissioners.

The true power and corruption is with the Senior Judges. Whether it is pure ego or kickbacks, they make all sorts of unscrupulous rulings.

Since the majority of the elected county and township commissioners are lawyers, they must kiss up to these judges for fear of losing cases.

It is really a mafia-like organization where they keep outsiders OUT if you want to try and join the political process.

To get in, you have to start with involvement in your neighborhood civic assocaition, then you are hand picked if you are a good soldier by having your name run up the flag pole to the Sernior Judges. That gives you permission and support to run for township commissioner.

9 of my 12 township commissioners are lawyers. They only get $4,000 a year and put in LONG hours many evenings a month. Why would they do this? Because the judges will rule favorably (and often in a manner that defies the law) in their cases before the Court of Common Pleas and they also do it to gain name recognition to bring in more law business. It is completely selfish and really has nothing to do with truly serving the community - and they all turn a blind eye to the corruption and kickbacks because it helps their careers and helps them make money.

And yes, the builders, especially with the recent real estate boom, play a big part, but they are not at the top. They contribute to political campaigns to get the contracts and zoning they want. Builders who don't give to the campaigns of judges and commissioners - as well as their pet projects, don't get building permits.

[Green Mountain Boy]

You take an oath to The British Bar and all your materials for your profession are copywritten by them,. I believe that is a conflict of interest..well hidden but there still none the same.

Best
Randy

Yes.... Esquires of the Crown

[jmcmsu]

Yes.... Esquires of the Crown

I take no such oath. I will take an oath to uphold the Constitution. In fact here is a sample oath from Michigan. They are all pretty much the same (except some include So Help me God at the end).

I do solemnly swear (or affirm):

I will support the Constitution of the United States and the Constitution of the State of Michigan;

I will maintain the respect due to courts of justice and judicial officers;

I will not counsel or maintain any suit or proceeding which shall appear to me to be unjust, nor any defense except such as I believe to be honestly debatable under the law of the land;

I will employ for the purpose of maintaining the causes confided to me such means only as are consistent with truth and honor, and will never seek to mislead the judge or jury by any artifice or false statement of fact or law;

I will maintain the confidence and preserve inviolate the secrets of my client, and will accept no compensation in connection with my client’s business except with my client’s knowledge and approval;

I will abstain from all offensive personality, and advance no fact prejudicial to the honor or reputation of a party or witness, unless required by the justice of the cause with which I am charged;

I will never reject, from any consideration personal to myself, the cause of the defenseless or oppressed, or delay any cause for lucre or malice;

I will in all other respects conduct myself personally and professionally in conformity with the high standards of conduct imposed upon members of the bar as conditions for the privilege to practice law in this State.

[OReich]

As a current law student and Ron Paul supporter this is the most ridiculous thing I have seen posted on this message board in a long time.
- Don't elect lawyers to local positions???? Are you serious?

Ron Paul has built his campaign on respect for the rule of law and the Constitution. Lawyers build their careers off of the rule of law and the Constitution.

In fact, during Alexis De Tocqueville's visit to America he wrote entire chapters in his book about the importance of lawyers to America's democracy.

"IN visiting the Americans and studying their laws, we perceive that the authority they have entrusted to members of the legal profession, and the influence; that these individuals exercise in the government, are the most powerful existing security against the excesses of democracy" - Tocqueville

"Lawyers belong to the people by birth and interest, and to the aristocracy by habit and taste; they may be looked upon as the connecting link between the two great classes of society." - Tocqueville

For more on why he thought lawyers were crucial to a successful democracy see this link which is directly from his writings. (Scroll down a little bit to Chapter 16).
http://xroads.virginia.edu/~HYPER/DETOC/1_ch16.htm

I'm a prelaw student, too, but the logic makes sense: lawyers have connections, especially business lawyers. My dad, also a lawyer, is the sweetest and most innocent person you'll ever meet, but you have to take my word for it. He, like I think the vast majority of lawyers, knows tons of politicians (local I mean), drug dealers, and important business owners. As sweet as innocent as he is, if he WASN'T, he'd be capable of running a corrupt operation. That being said, the general policy of "Don't elect lawyers" sounds awesome to me. Maybe we can make it more complicated than that, IE hold politicians to a high standard of transparency, but frankly, "Don't elect lawyers" sounds great by me. To be fair, I've only thought about this now that this thread was started, so maybe once I put more thought into it I'll think differently. (Lol, I wanna get into politics, but the greater good will be served if NO lawyer was elected prob.)

[Just Come Home]

I can't imagine a bank so small that someone could own it. Aren't Bank of America and Citibank near-monopolies everywhere?

There are community banks all over the place.

[garrettwombat]

And yes, the builders, especially with the recent real estate boom, play a big part, but they are not at the top. They contribute to political campaigns to get the contracts and zoning they want. Builders who don't give to the campaigns of judges and commissioners - as well as their pet projects, don't get building permits.

they may not be on top, but at the beginning they are.

its like this.
the candidates are the seeds.
the builders are the sowers.
when the candidates get elected and grows.
the builders and criminals can then thrive from its fruits.

[jmcmsu]

I'm a prelaw student, too, but the logic makes sense: lawyers have connections, especially business lawyers. My dad, also a lawyer, is the sweetest and most innocent person you'll ever meet, but you have to take my word for it. He, like I think the vast majority of lawyers, knows tons of politicians (local I mean), drug dealers, and important business owners. As sweet as innocent as he is, if he WASN'T, he'd be capable of running a corrupt operation. That being said, the general policy of "Don't elect lawyers" sounds awesome to me. Maybe we can make it more complicated than that, IE hold politicians to a high standard of transparency, but frankly, "Don't elect lawyers" sounds great by me. To be fair, I've only thought about this now that this thread was started, so maybe once I put more thought into it I'll think differently. (Lol, I wanna get into politics, but the greater good will be served if NO lawyer was elected prob.)

Look, lawyers form a huge portion of our elected officials and have played pivotal roles in our democracy. If you had your way we never would've elected James Madison, Thomas Jefferson or John Adams to public office and they were our founding fathers! If you make it to law school you'll see how beneficial a legal education is to understanding our political/legal process in this country and why it's important to have lawyers making laws. Bush (an MBA) has destroyed the rule of law in part because he doesn't understand or respect it. Lawyers are trained to understand and respect the rule of law (which includes the common law).

[Green Mountain Boy]

I take no such oath. I will take an oath to uphold the Constitution. In fact here is a sample oath from Michigan. They are all pretty much the same (except some include So Help me God at the end).


All Bar Associations throughout the world are signatories and franchises to the international Bar Association located at the Inns of Court at Crown Temple, which are physically located at Chancery Lane behind Fleet Street in London.

The Inns of Court to the Crown Temple use the Banking and Judicial system of the City of London - a sovereign and independent territory which is not a part of Great Britain (just as Washington City, as DC was called in the 1800’s, is not a part of the north American states, nor is it a state).

Judges = bankers in black robes

[garrettwombat]

Look, lawyers form a huge portion of our elected officials and have played pivotal roles in our democracy. If you had your way we never would've elected James Madison, Thomas Jefferson or John Adams to public office and they were our founding fathers! If you make it to law school you'll see how beneficial a legal education is to understanding our political/legal process in this country and why it's important to have lawyers making laws. Bush (an MBA) has destroyed the rule of law in part because he doesn't understand or respect it. Lawyers are trained to understand and respect the rule of law (which includes the common law).

you guys are obviously not hearing me out.... LOCAL GOVERNMENT.... more specifically... COMMISSIONERS


and of course there are a lot of lawyers in our government as elected officials for obvious reasons...
"lawyers are never wrong"

[jmcmsu]

There is no conspiracy... trust me... I'm in law school and I'm a huge RP supporter. We take an oath to uphold the Constitution and no one controls my mind and there is no secret organization where we meet and discuss plans to dupe over the rest of the world with our lawyerly skills. Furthermore, even if this were true the U.S. doesn't require lawyers to be members of any Inns of Court. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inns_of_Court

[garrettwombat]

ok stop the damn lawyer talk... you guys are missing the point...


there should be no instance where we need a lawyer as a

commissioner.

sheriff.

or mayor.

in fact the only position they should serve as in local government is judges.

[garrettwombat]

there is no conspiracy here... conspiracy is when you take a bunch of facts and jump to a certain conclusion...

its not conspiracy when i have been around this my entire life and it is a fact of how many american citys are ran.

[garrettwombat]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6015291679758430958

[Mr. White]

there is no conspiracy here... conspiracy is when you take a bunch of facts and jump to a certain conclusion...

its not conspiracy when i have been around this my entire life and it is a fact of how many american citys are ran.

What you're describing is anecdotal evidence. That's typically something people use as support of a conspiracy.

[Green Mountain Boy]

There is no conspiracy... trust me... I'm in law school and I'm a huge RP supporter. We take an oath to uphold the Constitution and no one controls my mind and there is no secret organization where we meet and discuss plans to dupe over the rest of the world with our lawyerly skills. Furthermore, even if this were true the U.S. doesn't require lawyers to be members of any Inns of Court. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inns_of_Court

I'm not saying you're a conspirator or anything like that. :p

I'm just saying that people, including you, should understand the origins, history, and purposes of your profession, that's all.

[fortilite]

im going to be the one who comes out and says this.

Thank God YOU came along and set us all straight. I'm gonna go to every thread and post links to this one, the people need to hear you!

Now people, Garretwombat is enlightening us, so huddle close and listen.


P.S. I didn't read past your first line.

[garrettwombat]

What you're describing is anecdotal evidence. That's typically something people use as support of a conspiracy.


ok but listen... im not going to list names or tell you real situations to protect myself.

but i know for a fact this happens because my family has deep ties in with it, including myself.
so this is definatly not conspiracy... go ahead and run for office yourself... just do it to do it.
and see what you get yourself into.

im not trying to give any evidence at all... i dont want too, just know this is how a lot of cities in America are ran.

[garrettwombat]

I'm not saying you're a conspirator or anything like that.

I'm just saying that people, including you, should understand the origins, history, and purposes of your profession, that's all.


wtf, UNDERSTAND??? I GET CAUGHT UP IN IT ON A DAILY BASIS!


maybe its just me and what goes on around me....

but iv talked to a lot of people from all over the place and they all know it. and we know it, its not a
"secret conspiracy between lawyers and politicians"

its just a matter of bribes and getting around the law and making money
that's it, nothing more, but that is what corruption is, and it is what has ruined this country.

[Mr. White]

ok but listen... im not going to list names or tell you real situations to protect myself.

but i know for a fact this happens because my family has deep ties in with it, including myself.
so this is definatly not conspiracy... go ahead and run for office yourself... just do it to do it.
and see what you get yourself into.

*smirk*

I've already acknowledged that politics is corrupt. When a man's vote is tied to money, he can be bought. Most everyone's vote is tied to money and therefore, they are for sale.

You aren't telling anyone anything they don't know if they spend 5 minutes putting some thought into it. You're simply making yourself look like an insane conspiracy whacko drawing out others like Green Mtn Boy (no offense G M B, reasonably points were made) to get people riled up about absolutely nothing.

Law exists because the people wanted it to. People want enough order so that they can live their lives. Within that order, the shepard will sheer the sheep just enough without giving the sheep motivation to turn around and kill him. Lawyers, more than anyone else, know the line the shepard walks. We can use it to benefit the shepard or the sheep. The shepard pays more, so most serve the shepard. The trick is to convince the lawyers that the sheep will pay more in the end. Trust me, you want the lawyers on your side.

[Green Mountain Boy]

wtf, UNDERSTAND??? I GET CAUGHT UP IN IT ON A DAILY BASIS!


maybe its just me and what goes on around me....

but iv talked to a lot of people from all over the place and they all know it. and we know it, its not a
"secret conspiracy between lawyers and politicians"

its just a matter of bribes and getting around the law and making money
that's it, nothing more, but that is what corruption is, and it is what has ruined this country.

Oh, I understand completely. Politics are corrupt at all levels.

[garrettwombat]

oh of course you want lawyers on your side... everyone does.. but you dont want them as your commissioner of your county...

[Mr. White]

oh of course you want lawyers on your side... everyone does.. but you dont want them as your commissioner of your county...

Why exactly? Power corrupts. Period. If you have to sell out to get into office, then someone who wants the office will sell out.

If you don't want sell-outs in office maybe your post should be centered on telling people to research who they vote for, as opposed too telling them what catagory not to vote for.

[jmcmsu]

Hey guys just wanted to say let's all stay united for Ron Paul. I just wanted to throw my two cents in that I'm a law student and I care very deeply about the Constitution and the issues in this campaign. We all come from diverse background and beliefs but we all find common ground in the Ron Paul message.

[garrettwombat]

why is this becoming so centered around the lawyer thing...

my original thread wasnt about lawyers at all except i mentioned to try not to vote for them.

and my reason being is that a lawyer has no place as a commissioner, mayor, or sheriff position...

and ill say it once again... if you think for a second a lawyer cares about anything other than his clients you are crazy. a lawyers job is almost to be currupt on a daily basis...

your not defending a law, your finding loopholes in the law.

the judge is the one who upholds the law and the constitution a courtroom, not lawyers...

[SocraticAce]

garrettwombat, you make a good point. Although I know a personal bank owner and lawyers and othre peple you point out as being apt for corruptness and none of them are corrupt, they also are not involved in politics.

Making such wide arching statements dangerous because it is not the people who will always be corrupt it is the system and the state of our culture. If our culture is such that the corrupt can gain power, there is something wrong with the voters or the candidates who would not have qualms about deceiving the people he is out to represent.

The real issue is (to quote Boondock Saints) "the indifference of good men." The banker, lawyers, etc I know are able to get along fine despite the corrupt that may or may not (I'm not involved so I can't speak definitively) be in power. When in truth it is not right regardless if it affects us individually or not.

More good men, whatever their profession, need to step up to the plate and take the problem on.

[Mr. White]

why is this becoming so centered around the lawyer thing...

my original thread wasnt about lawyers at all except i mentioned to try not to vote for them.

and my reason being is that a lawyer has no place as a commissioner, mayor, or sheriff position...
and ill say it once again... if you think for a second a lawyer cares about anything other than his clients you are crazy. a lawyers job is almost to be currupt on a daily basis...

your not defending a law, your finding loopholes in the law.

the judge is the one who upholds the law and the constitution a courtroom, not lawyers...


The bolded parts, especially the last bit, indicate you know jack s**t about the legal system. I'm sorry you and your family have had a bad experience with corruption, but to sit there and say what you just did is unexcusable and ignorant.

You're not imparting knowledge, you're imparting a skewed worldview.

[garrettwombat]

ok tell me mr. white...

how does a lawyer help serve a community and not just a client.

[Mr. White]

Oh lord.... okay.

Prosecuting attornies do nothing but serve the peoples interest in criminal cases.

Pro bono work and orgas like the ACLU.

Tort law is the alternative to legislative policy like the FDA.

You don' seem to understand... law and lawyers EXIST because the community wants them to. Lawyers are the alternative to restrictive statutes. If someone poisons ponds you can either A) pass a restriction on poisoning pnds B) club them to death C) Sue them with a lawyer.

If everyone who poisons ponds knows that they will lose a lawsuit for doing so, they won't poison ponds... Community benefit. Go look up RP's discussion of environmental law and you'll udnerstand what I'm saying.

[pacelli]

This thread has nothing to do with the Grassroots Ron Paul campaign, and quite frankly is not going to help someone who just discovered Dr. Paul's message and is visiting these forums for the first time.

Could one of the mods please move it to Hot Topics or another focused forum?

Obviously there are alot of points on either side of the debate, but is not related to organizing a Grassroots campaign to help Dr. Paul get elected to the presidency.

[tmg19103]

Interesting how many law students are posting. I hope you all know what you are getting yourselves into. I'm 42 and have several close friends who are lawyers. None seem real happy with their jobs. Lawyers these days are rarely in court. It's all about finding clients and writing briefs and settling the case. Very mundane, yet high pressure to bill, stuff. With the glut of lawyers these days, you have a chance of getting an associate job with a decent law firm, but unless you are one of the top 5% of those associates, they will work you for 90 hours a week for a couple years and dump you. Then you either hang your own shingle, which is VERY competitive and not very lucrative, or take a pay cut to be a corporate lawyer - or, as with many, you dump the profession.

Hate to be such a downer, but that is what I have witnessed with many. I went the MBA route and found the corporate world to be so corrupt and political I started my own business and am fortunate enough to have had some success with it.

I remember when I was in my 20's and full of great expectations of being CEO. Only happens to a lucky and cut-throat few.

The key, like I have now, is to find something that will make you happy even if you were not paid. I could see the legal profession being that way in an ideal world, but the profession is all about billable hours and what have you done for me lately? Nothing noble about it these days unless you want to work as a public defender or for a non-profit for $40k a year. That I respect.

Still, I hope those in law school who support RP break the mold and have happy and proseprous law careers where you also do some good for the world.

[tmg19103]

Oh lord.... okay.

Prosecuting attornies do nothing but serve the peoples interest in criminal cases.

Pro bono work and orgas like the ACLU.

Tort law is the alternative to legislative policy like the FDA.

You don' seem to understand... law and lawyers EXIST because the community wants them to. Lawyers are the alternative to restrictive statutes. If someone poisons ponds you can either A) pass a restriction on poisoning pnds B) club them to death C) Sue them with a lawyer.

If everyone who poisons ponds knows that they will lose a lawsuit for doing so, they won't poison ponds... Community benefit. Go look up RP's discussion of environmental law and you'll udnerstand what I'm saying.


40 years ago in the county I live in that has about 400,000 people, there were about 400 lawyers. Today the county is the same size but hase 4,000 lawyers.

There are some good and decent people who are lawyers out there. However, it is not just the "community" wants them. Unscruplulous lawyers have made whole industries out of suing individuals, doctors, hospitals, businesses that did not exist even 10 years ago. Because there are so many (too many) lawyers, they need to get creative to find new ways to litigate and make money, and that is exactly what they have done. Society plays a role in going along with it, but the legal industry is no different than the business world - they are ALWAYS looking for ways to drive more revenue.

[Paul.Bearer.of.Injustice]

Construction, huh?
Is that why many Italians (I am one myself) went into it? Sort of as a "legal" mafia?
Makes sense... I always wondered why Italians so predominate the construction arena.

[ionlyknowy]

40 years ago in the county I live in that has about 400,000 people, there were about 400 lawyers. Today the county is the same size but hase 4,000 lawyers.

There are some good and decent people who are lawyers out there. However, it is not just the "community" wants them. Unscruplulous lawyers have made whole industries out of suing individuals, doctors, hospitals, businesses that did not exist even 10 years ago. Because there are so many (too many) lawyers, they need to get creative to find new ways to litigate and make money, and that is exactly what they have done. Society plays a role in going along with it, but the legal industry is no different than the business world - they are ALWAYS looking for ways to drive more revenue.

If you think there are too many lawyers, then you have the American Bar Association to blame.

They continue to approve new law schools every year. If these same people would limit the approval of new law schools and/or limit the class sizes of existing law schools then we could have fewer lawyers.... But until that happens we will continue to see more and more lawyers.

Now, I do agree that some lawyers have made the rest of lawyers have a bad name. But I think that lawyers are a vital elements to a functioning society.

For all of the lawyers out there I need to direct you to this board

www.lawschooldiscussion.org

It helped me when I was going through.. and if you read enough on this board it explains that unless you go to a top 14 or so school, have a hard science degree and do IP prosecution, or make top 15% or so of your 1L class, then you will have a hard time getting a Big firm job.

Big firms like 100+ lawyers - make $160,000/year straight out of law school
Medium Firms 50+ lawyers - make $70,000/year straight out of law school
The rest - Make in the $50,000 range per year.

The competition is very rough, and usually at large firms you will be representing large companies as their defense attorney.

In Biglaw, you not only make the money but you also regularly work 60-65+ hours per week.

Check out the message board
www.lawschooldiscussion.org

And some other good websites

www.nalpdirectory.com - look up firms and what they pay
www.martindale.com - look up where lawyers work and went to school

Ranking of law schools
http://grad-schools.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/usnews/edu/grad/rankings/law/brief/lawrank_brief.php

[garrettwombat]

Construction, huh?
Is that why many Italians (I am one myself) went into it? Sort of as a "legal" mafia?
Makes sense... I always wondered why Italians so predominate the construction arena.

your in construction also? you can agree with me than that builders care nothing more than earning a damn buck. hiring out illegals to get the job done quicker.

builders could give a shit less about the american economy.
they want there dirty money from there dirty banks.

[garrettwombat]

Now, I do agree that some lawyers have made the rest of lawyers have a bad name. But I think that lawyers are a vital elements to a functioning society.

there is no doubt in my mind that lawyers are a vital element in a functioning society... no one has stated otherwise here.

but, at the same time, im telling you they are all for there clients... no lawyer wants to lose a case wether its bro bono or not.

and the point is we dont need lawyers to be commissioners... its just a very bad idea.

[Paul.Bearer.of.Injustice]

your in construction also? you can agree with me than that builders care nothing more than earning a damn buck. hiring out illegals to get the job done quicker.

builders could give a shit less about the american economy.
they want there dirty money from there dirty banks.

I'm not in construction, but my father was(he died when I was a teenager). He was tight with the Mayor and important town committee members. Made a lot of money in a few years, but lost much of it somehow.
His father (Grandpa) flew drugs for the mafia and did some time (died before I was born).
Maybe they deserved early deaths.

[ionlyknowy]

Society needs lawyers.

Everyone that supports Ron Paul is against the police state.

If you did not have lawyers, then that is exactly what you would have, a police state.

For instance... the legislature write a law that says the following:

"You can carry your gun in your car if you are traveling"

Now, suppose you read this statute, and think YAY now when I go see my buddies in that bad part of town, I can carry my gun because I am traveling to their house.

This house happens to be 2 hours away.

On the way to your friends house, you get pulled over, and they ask you why you have the gun. You tell them, you were going to visit your friend. The police do not see any packed bags in your car or anything else that shows you are traveling or on vacation, so they arrest you.

Now if there were no lawyers, the story would stop here... and you would probably go to jail.

But if you have lawyers, then your lawyer will argue that the definition of "traveling" in the statute was meant to be interpreted broadly. Meaning maybe if you are going a distance of more than 60 miles you are considered to be traveling.

Whereas the prosecutor will argue for a strict meaning of traveling, arguing that you need to be on some sort of official vacation. Or even arguing that most people that are considered to be traveling are going a distance of more than 2 hours or driving...

You see, the legislature writes statutes very broadly... then the judicial branch i.e. lawyers and judges determine what the intent of the legislature was and try to interpret what it means exactly, by adjudicating cases that dont exactly fit within the statute.

If there were no lawyers, then police could make a snap judgment about a law and enforce it without due process. This is in violation of the constitution.

And as RP supporters we should uphold the constitution, therefore we should value and uphold the lawyers (uncorrupted) in this country.

All I am saying is this... you want lawyers to be good advocates for their clients... even if they are on the losing side... If you did not have this then the system would not work. The way a court room is set up, is to flesh out the truth. Both sides argue the case, and the truth will come out. With enough evidence and witnesses and questions, the truth usually can be seen. And without the lawyers trying their best to advocate both sides of the argument this would never happen.

[jmcmsu]

there is no doubt in my mind that lawyers are a vital element in a functioning society... no one has stated otherwise here.

but, at the same time, im telling you they are all for there clients... no lawyer wants to lose a case wether its bro bono or not.

and the point is we dont need lawyers to be commissioners... its just a very bad idea.

Yes of course lawyers are all for their clients... but they still have to be within the law (see the lawyer's oath). You can be sanctioned for taking up cases that have no merit. Lawyers are all for their clients because this is how the adversarial system works. If you get into a contract dispute with your neighbor or get hit by a drunk driver won't you want a lawyer to be all for you? What about if your neighborhood association tries to ban you from hanging enormous ron paul signs in your yard, don't you believe a your lawyer should vigorously pursue your defense? By allowing two parties (or more) to have lawyers that serve their clients we create a system that tries to create a just end result. I'm sure many of the people at Guantonomo are actual terrorists but our legal system affords them the right to an attorney and a chance to have a neutral decision maker here their claims (or at least it should be).
Furthermore, criminal defense lawyers must pursue a vigorous defense of their clients even if they know they're guilty. This is because our founding fathers knew how important it was to have lawyers act as a check against the power of the state. If a lawyer isn't doing his best to represent a client he can be sued by the client for legal malpractice (depending upon the circumstances of course).

[garrettwombat]

Yes of course lawyers are all for their clients... but they still have to be within the law (see the lawyer's oath).


no one here is debating wether or not we need lawyers... i dont know where all you law students came from and started proposing someone here said we dont need lawyers... because no one has done so..
everyone knows lawyers are important so why are you guys giving big long lectures on why they are...

all that has ever been said is that we... do... not... need... lawyers... as... commissioners...

we need lawyers as lawyers...

understand people?

if this thread is to continue can we talk about something other than lawyers... this was not the purpose of my post.

[jmcmsu]

I find it antithetical to the idea of freedom that you would tell me that once I get my law degree you won't allow me to run for public office. It's contrary to the freedom message to start telling people that you won't allow people to do things solely because they chose to spend three years of their life pursuing a J.D. degree. It's one thing to say that we don't "need" lawyers as commissioners but it's a whole other thing to say we shouldn't "allow" lawyers to be commissioners.

[ionlyknowy]

no one here is debating wether or not we need lawyers... i dont know where all you law students came from and started proposing someone here said we dont need lawyers... because no one has done so..
everyone knows lawyers are important so why are you guys giving big long lectures on why they are...

all that has ever been said is that we... do... not... need... lawyers... as... commissioners...

we need lawyers as lawyers...

understand people?

if this thread is to continue can we talk about something other than lawyers... this was not the purpose of my post.

yes but when you make a sweeping generalization about a whole class of citizens, then you are mistaken.

The "law students" on this board are merely trying to point out that not every or even most lawyers are the kind that you would not want as a commissioner.

Yes some of any profession are corrupt.

You cannot say that just because some lawyers are potentially corruptible that they should not be commissioners. That is like saying just because Iran has the potential to make a nuclear weapon we should bomb them..

That is Bush neocon logic!

[daviddee]

...

[daviddee]

...

[Paul.Bearer.of.Injustice]

I find it antithetical to the idea of freedom that you would tell me that once I get my law degree you won't allow me to run for public office. It's contrary to the freedom message to start telling people that you won't allow people to do things solely because they chose to spend three years of their life pursuing a J.D. degree. It's one thing to say that we don't "need" lawyers as commissioners but it's a whole other thing to say we shouldn't "allow" lawyers to be commissioners.

why not? we don't allow those born in other countries to be President.
It's simply a conflict of interest - just as ALL foreign borns wouldn't necessarily be bad presidents, not ALL lawyers would be poor public servants.
But in reality, most lawyers ARE corrupt.

[garrettwombat]

Oh Jesus, where do I start...

1. Builders - Then please explain why most every government puts in place deed restrictions, limitations on zoning, impact fees, etc. I have developed many parcels in my life and to say the builders are hand and hand with the government is out of control. Try sitting in on a planning board once in your life... it will open your eyes.

ok yes i have sat in many planning boards... you think there is no way around deed restrictions, or zoning limitations?? jesus christ hand over a 50,000 dollar check and it will get done... limitations are easy to get around... this still has nothing to do with my overall statement... its just builders now, it doesnt matter who the sower is... it could be any small businesses for all that matters, im just saying right now its the builders.


2. Politicians - Are some of the most spineless, clueless people I have ever met... especially as you move up the food chain. To call them the "brains" is out of line. The succeed because the people with brains have better things to do with their time.

are you kidding me, they may not be smart, but they are smart enough to know how to look the other way and get slipped a check at the same time.


3. Drug Dealers - Put the bong down... it is causing psychosis

i have never done drugs in my life you idiot and when have i claimed i have?



4. Banks - Oh yes... the bankers...

What is clear to me is that you are potentially against capitalists and assume that just because your are where you are in your life... It has to be the builders, drug dealers, and banks...

im not talking about "banks in general" you dufass, im talking about local banks owned by a commissioners... do some research on all your local banks and find out who own them.

and what the fuck is that supposed to mean? "where i am in my life"???
im a 19 year old skilled trade worker going to college as a criminal justice student with a family tied deep into the government of where i live... fuck off you prick.



What keeps the cycle of shitty politicians continuing is the fact that most people who have a clue are out making money. A lot of the politicians in office now (on all levels) are Socialists who believe in wealth distribution.

IM TALKING ABOUT CURRUPTION HERE... AND CURRUPTION THAT EXISTS...
every politician takes bribes... AND THAT IS CURRUPTION. THAT'S ALL IM FUCKING SAYING.


In order for this grassroots movement to continue past Dr Paul is for people who are successful to step into the light and use their own abilities & funds to effect change on the local level.

that IS exactly what needs to happen and all im saying is be careful....

take my advise as someone who has been involved with what im talking about...
its not fucking theory, i was a part of it first hand...

im just telling you guys how the fuck it is in some places... get the fuck over yourselves.
HAVE YOU EVER HAD POLITICAL EXPERIANCE??? NOO... SO SHUT UP.

[dude58677]

Interesting how many law students are posting. I hope you all know what you are getting yourselves into. I'm 42 and have several close friends who are lawyers. None seem real happy with their jobs. Lawyers these days are rarely in court. It's all about finding clients and writing briefs and settling the case. Very mundane, yet high pressure to bill, stuff. With the glut of lawyers these days, you have a chance of getting an associate job with a decent law firm, but unless you are one of the top 5% of those associates, they will work you for 90 hours a week for a couple years and dump you. Then you either hang your own shingle, which is VERY competitive and not very lucrative, or take a pay cut to be a corporate lawyer - or, as with many, you dump the profession.

Hate to be such a downer, but that is what I have witnessed with many. I went the MBA route and found the corporate world to be so corrupt and political I started my own business and am fortunate enough to have had some success with it.

I remember when I was in my 20's and full of great expectations of being CEO. Only happens to a lucky and cut-throat few.

The key, like I have now, is to find something that will make you happy even if you were not paid. I could see the legal profession being that way in an ideal world, but the profession is all about billable hours and what have you done for me lately? Nothing noble about it these days unless you want to work as a public defender or for a non-profit for $40k a year. That I respect.

Still, I hope those in law school who support RP break the mold and have happy and proseprous law careers where you also do some good for the world.

I was a pre-law stdent at Pitt and it was such a corrupt field that I gave up on it. I didn't like the "might makes right" mentality. Such as if the Supreme Court upholds torture then that is what lawyers will go along with. I wanted to get into it at first because I wanted to make a career suing the government for violating the Constitution. I even took a pro se case against the Selective Service System which was not surprisingly rejected by the Judge before there was even a trial and the Judges corrupted the system by denying me a right to a jury trial which is what I demanded under the 7th amendment. I also don't like how they violate due process to anyone claiming the Tax laws are unsconstitutional. They don't even consider being taxed as legal standing to sue. :mad::mad::mad:

[ionlyknowy]

I was a pre-law stdent at Pitt and it was such a corrupt field that I gave up on it. I didn't like the "might makes right" mentality. Such as if the Supreme Court upholds torture then that is what lawyers will go along with. I wanted to get into it at first because I wanted to make a career suing the government for violating the Constitution. I even took a pro se case against the Selective Service System which was not surprisingly rejected by the Judge before there was even a trial and the Judges corrupted the system by denying me a right to a jury trial which is what I demanded under the 7th amendment. I also don't like how they violate due process to anyone claiming the Tax laws are unsconstitutional. They don't even consider being taxed as legal standing to sue. :mad::mad::mad:

" I even took a pro se case against the Selective Service System which was not surprisingly rejected by the Judge before there was even a trial and the Judges corrupted the system by denying me a right to a jury trial which is what I demanded under the 7th amendment."

This made me laugh :p No one gets a trail by jury when suing the government.

And you have to be granted permission to sue the government. Yes, that is right, the Govt. cannot be sued unless they tell you that you can sue. Read the Federal Torts Claims Act. And even if the Act says you can sue, then you cannot have a jury only a judge.

It is called sovereign immunity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_immunity

The reason for this
the sovereign is the historical origin of the authority which creates the courts. Thus the courts had no power to compel the sovereign to be bound by the courts, as they were created by the sovereign for the protection of his or her subjects.


So I guess when they rejected your claim, and denied your trial by jury you just assumed it was due to their corruption.. Or did you actually check to see if your claim against the Govt. was permissible and just forget that you cant get a trial by jury when suing the Govt.?

[ionlyknowy]

why not? we don't allow those born in other countries to be President.
It's simply a conflict of interest - just as ALL foreign borns wouldn't necessarily be bad presidents, not ALL lawyers would be poor public servants.
But in reality, most lawyers ARE corrupt.

"most lawyers ARE corrupt"

How could you ever even come close to even have a small shadow of a reason to believe this statement is true?

This is a general statement to which there is absolutely no basis for.

You just assume they are corrupt.

[chinaCat]

I got tired of this around page 5. My family has several friends who have been lawyers for a few decades. I don't hear first hand accounts, but talk like this is quite common. In some form or another this is true. He makes a point of saying local level, and makes another point of saying most.

So I would agree with him, as to the severity, well it varies probably.

[dude58677]

" I even took a pro se case against the Selective Service System which was not surprisingly rejected by the Judge before there was even a trial and the Judges corrupted the system by denying me a right to a jury trial which is what I demanded under the 7th amendment."

This made me laugh :p No one gets a trail by jury when suing the government.

And you have to be granted permission to sue the government. Yes, that is right, the Govt. cannot be sued unless they tell you that you can sue. Read the Federal Torts Claims Act. And even if the Act says you can sue, then you cannot have a jury only a judge.

It is called sovereign immunity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_immunity

The reason for this
the sovereign is the historical origin of the authority which creates the courts. Thus the courts had no power to compel the sovereign to be bound by the courts, as they were created by the sovereign for the protection of his or her subjects.


So I guess when they rejected your claim, and denied your trial by jury you just assumed it was due to their corruption.. Or did you actually check to see if your claim against the Govt. was permissible and just forget that you cant get a trial by jury when suing the Govt.?

And why should you have to have permission? Because it is corruption...Duh

[jmcmsu]

No, it's a philosophical argument about the nature of sovereignty that you just don't understand. You also don't understand the difference between laws and rules you don't like and corruption. You don't need to go to law school to understand the difference either, although in your case it might not be such a bad idea. I'm in law school with about 900 other law students and they're all just normal people like me and you. When lawyers get caught for corruption they get disbarred (remember Bill Clinton lying under oath). The vast vast vast majority of lawyers are just normal white collar professionals.

Because of the nature of the adversarial system if one lawyer is corrupt or is using illegal methods to promote his/her client he is going to get called out by the lawyer on the other side and face severe sanctions.

[Paul.Bearer.of.Injustice]

"most lawyers ARE corrupt"

How could you ever even come close to even have a small shadow of a reason to believe this statement is true?

This is a general statement to which there is absolutely no basis for.

You just assume they are corrupt.

Thanks for explaining to me my own thought process.
You must be a lawyer since you are so quick to proclaim your cleverness (note: not intelligence) and aura of authority.

[dude58677]

No, it's a philosophical argument about the nature of sovereignty that you just don't understand. You also don't understand the difference between laws and rules you don't like and corruption. If you had gone to law school you would probably know the difference. I'm in law school with about 900 other law students and they're all just normal people like me and you. When lawyers get caught for corruption they get disbarred (remember Bill Clinton lying under oath). The vast vast vast majority of lawyers are just normal white collar professionals.

Legally- there is a right to a trial by jury under the 7th amendment even if the corrupt Supreme Court says otherwise.

Ethically- It is wrong to deny someone a chance to make their point even if you might disagree.

After I left pre-law and changed my major to business. At least they put ethics above law.

You're "Might makes right" mentality is the exact reason I left pre-law. I am amazed that Ron Paul has been able to deal with this garbage on a daily basis.

[jmcmsu]

Legally- there is a right to a trial by jury under the 7th amendment even if the corrupt Supreme Court says otherwise.

Ethically- It is wrong to deny someone a chance to make their point even if you might disagree.

After I left pre-law and changed my major to business. At least they put ethics above law.

You're "Might makes right" mentality is the exact reason I left pre-law. I am amazed that Ron Paul has been able to deal with this garbage on a daily basis.

Actually the right to a trial by jury goes back to English common law. In English common law there were Courts of Equity and Courts of Law. Judges sat on Courts of Equity and juries decided issues before Courts of Law. Because our 7th Amendment is based off of this common law and its legal precedents a trial by jury is not required in every type of legal action. Different types of legal causes of action create different outcomes as to whether or not the case goes before a judge or jury.

Furthermore, while I believe the Supreme Court has corrupted the Constitution it is not a corrupt institution nor are the individual judges on the Supreme Court corrupt persons.

[Paul.Bearer.of.Injustice]

What I hear from Dude5.... is that law was derived to serve ethics and preserve rights.
It is not that way anymore.
Most lawyers do whatever they can to win cases - not uphold 'law'. They are clever, but not intelligent, and are unthinking(of the higher good) paramecium who feel their way along the walls of rules until they come upon a crack to slip through.
Not all of course. There may be one or two. ;-p

[dude58677]

Actually the right to a trial by jury goes back to English common law. In English common law there were Courts of Equity and Courts of Law. Judges sat on Courts of Equity and juries decided issues before Courts of Law. Because our 7th Amendment is based off of this common law and its legal precedents a trial by jury is not required in every type of legal action. Different types of legal causes of action create different outcomes as to whether or not the case goes before a judge or jury.

The 7th amemdment is very clear, the right to a trial by jury if the suit is over 20 dollars. Denying this is no different than denying that Ron Paul wins debate polls, straw polls, etc and is instead nothing more than spamming.

[jmcmsu]

The 7th amemdment is very clear, the right to a trial by jury if the suit is over 20 dollars. Denying this is no different than denying that Ron Paul wins debate polls, straw polls, etc and is instead nothing more than spamming.

Sorry, you are just wrong on the facts, no offense. Here she is in all her glory, the 7th Amendment
"In Suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any Court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law."

Note the words "In suits at common law....according to the rules of common law"

Sorry to burst your bubble but according to the rules of common law not every cause of legal action was sent before a jury.

In England there were two different types of courts: the courts of common law and the courts of equity. The former was based on the strict provisions of the law and granted legal relief (monetary relief) while the latter was based on the principles of fairness and granted equitable relief (primarily non-monetary relief, such as injunctions, but also essentially monetary relief such as restitution, disgorgement, and equitable liens. ). Juries were used in the courts of common law, but not in the courts of equity. The distinctions found in the English system were preserved by the Seventh Amendment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventh_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitutio n

[Mr. White]

Wow, that was fun to jump back into and read.

Summary: ? Lawyers shouldn't become comissioners....because... we... are... ?

finish that please wombat

[ionlyknowy]

I got tired of this around page 5. My family has several friends who have been lawyers for a few decades. I don't hear first hand accounts, but talk like this is quite common. In some form or another this is true. He makes a point of saying local level, and makes another point of saying most.

So I would agree with him, as to the severity, well it varies probably.

That is exactly what we are arguing against, him saying that MOST lawyers are corrupt or corruptible.

Most is not the same as Many. Many is the same as A Few.

Many means less than 50% as does A Few.

Most means over 50%.


Now when you say that Most lawyers are corrupt or corruptible, then you are saying that over 50% of lawyers are this way.

My argument is, there is no way for anyone to know the truth of this argument unless we investigate every lawyers life in the US and look for traces of corruption.

But I am saying that I can pretty much guarantee that less than 50% of lawyers are corrupt or corruptible.

The ABA puts out a code of ethics, and if you do not abide by these, then you get disbarred, you may also be sued by your client for attorney malpractice.

Not many professions have these checks and balances integrated into the profession.

Everyone that says that most lawyers are corrupt has been brainwashed by the TV. Just like the MSM does to others, the TV has done it to you.

The only time a lawyer gets any air time on TV is if he is getting off a killer like OJ Simpson or something that is just as shocking.

Decades of this type of coverage has left America with a bad taste in their mouths.

Lets see, there are 180 ABA accredited law school in America, and there are about 250 students per 1st year class. So there are 45,000 new lawyers every year.

And since the average lawyer probably works for 18 years minimum that is 810,000 lawyers currently in America.

Just because you see about 10 of them each year in the news for something they did unethically doesnt mean that 500,000 of them are following the unethical ones.

[garrettwombat]

im not arguing about anything because what i know is fact. and i see it everyday.
so no matter what you tell me i will never believe anything that you say because it is here in front of my own two eyes and ears...
deny me if you want, what i said happens. and it happens often.
i was just warning you guys. get over yourselves.

"Lawyers shouldn't become commissioners..." for one if a lawyer was to run for commissioner i would hope he has more background than this, because they have nothing to do with the kind of experience you would need as a commissioner, mayor, or sheriff.

in the court room a lawyer cant lie, but he can also not do as good of a job, like not bring up important evidence... which i HAVE seen done.

it would just be a bad idea, to elect a lawyer into the position of a commissioner.
just like it would be a bad idea to elect a lobbyist as a commissioner...
a lot of the lawyers that run for these types of positions are in bed with a lot of the drug dealers. every lawyer knows if there client is guilty or not. it is there job to make it seem like they are innocent. its what they are paid to do... dont give me that crap about lawyers defend the law... im not buying that...
do you know how many lawyers i have talked to?
there are just certain types of people i do not feel we should take a risk with and elect them into certain county positions

and anyways, your missing the point everyone...
STFU about lawyers already.
this isn't even what my damn post was about.

[jmcmsu]

I don't know how many lawyers you have "talked to" but I know I am actually in law school and interact with lawyers everyday and you are so far off base it's not even funny. Also, you have provided absolutely no concrete evidence other than your own anecdotal stories. Sure, there are corrupt people in all walks of life and lawyers are no different. By no different I truly mean no different, not any more or less corrupt than any other profession. And as to every lawyer knows whether their client is guilty or not this is also untrue (ever heard of reasonable doubt). Furthermore, it is their job to vigorously pursue a defense of their client regardless of his or her guilt because in this way we oppose the power of the state to send us to jail or punish us without ever giving us a chance to defend ourselves. Your comments make it seem like you want the government to just lock all people up without a lawyer because "every lawyer knows if there client is guilty or not. it is there job to make it seem like they are innocent. its what they are paid to do... dont give me that crap about lawyers defend the law." This is not a good solution, trust me (although since I'm in law school you probably won't since I'm in bed with the drug dealers, the bankers and the builders...obviously.)

[Corydoras]

Garrett, for what reason are you generalizing from your situation to the rest of the country?

And for what reason have you not left to see the way the rest of the country goes, maybe somewhere that sheriffs are irrelevant and commissioners unheard-of?

[McDermit]

Should the campaign have made more of an effort at getting "reputable" names as delegates vs. normal unknown names?

Yes, yes, yes, and yes.

We're having a hard time with this locally, because we have some stubborn RP supporters who want everyone to get a gold star and to feel equal. But for all practical purposes, we need our delegate candidates to be people who are well known in the community, or at the very least, have a well known last name. (ie: dad was in politics, share a name with a politician or local business person, etc.)

If you don't KNOW who's running, you usually go for either the first on the list or a name that stands out as being familiar.

We're trying to pick the best 3 people we can to run for delegate... but we have some supporters who refuse to go along, and are running themselves just to prove a point.