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Xerographica
10-12-2016, 02:04 PM
My friend Michelle teaches a 4th grade public school class of 30 students. She recently started applying my ideal government to her class...

1. voting is replaced with spending (coasianism)
2. kids can choose where their taxes go (pragmatarianism)

Michelle had recently given all the spare coins around her house to some kid to go on a trip. So I looked around my house, found 700 pennies and gave them to Michelle. She gave each of her students 20 pennies and they used the pennies to decide which book to read. Here's the process...

Step 1 - Each student writes down on a valuation form theirů

1. name
2. preferred option
3. willingness to pay (WTP)

Step 2 - Once all the forms have been turned in Michelle writes all 30 valuations on the board.

Step 3 - While she's writing the valuations on the board... the students add them up in order to determine the subtotals and total.

Step 4 - Michelle goes through the forms and reads off the names of the winners and their valuation. One by one the winners go up and make their payment.

Step 5 - While the winners are making their payments, the "losers" calculate their compensationů

c = compensation
a = WTP
w = total spent on winning option
l = total spent on losing option

c/w = a/l
c = w(a/l)

Step 6 - When the "losers" figure out their compensation, Michelle checks their work. If their work is correct then she gives them their compensation.

Step 7 - The students share their feedback on the outcome.

All the students who are compensated will eventually pay taxes on their compensation. But they will be able to choose which departments they give their taxes to. Each department will be run by one or more students. Possible departments include...

1. Gardening Department
2. Animal Department
3. Book Department
4. Food Department
5. Athletic Department
6. Computer Department
7. Art Department

So far the only department is the IRS. Aiden, who was chosen, via coasianism, to be in charge of the class IRS, won't collect taxes like the original IRS does. Instead, he will simply ensure that the students are paying their fair share. Of course, Aiden's "paycheck" depends entirely on how happy the taxpayers are with how well he does his job.

Let's say that Brianna is in charge of the gardening department. Sergio gives her some tax money. She'll give him a receipt and he'll keep his receipts to verify that he has been paying his fair share. Brianna will be able to decide how much of her department's revenue is used to purchase plants, seeds, pots, shovels, and to pay herself and the students who garden during recess.

I'm pretty sure that, for most of you, this isn't how your ideal government would work. How would your ideal government work? Are you certain that your ideal government would work better than my ideal government? If so, then find a teacher and pitch your plan to her. If she implements your plan then we can compare the results.

For more information...

4th Grade Nation State (http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=391555)
Paul Samuelson: Worst Economic Theorist (http://pragmatarianism.blogspot.com/2016/10/paul-samuelson-worst-economic-theorist.html)

See also: Group Decisions: Voting VS Spending (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?503165-Group-Decisions-Voting-VS-Spending)

dannno
10-12-2016, 02:11 PM
If they lose their receipt and can't prove they have given their fair share, are they guilty until proven innocent?

Xerographica
10-12-2016, 03:07 PM
If they lose their receipt and can't prove they have given their fair share, are they guilty until proven innocent?

Each department should keep track of all the relevant payment info...

1. Student name
2. Tax payment amount
3. Date of payment

So if Sergio loses his tax receipts for the last month... then Aiden can simply ask each department how much Sergio has paid them in the past month. Then Aiden would compare Sergio's payments with his compensations in order to ensure that he has been paying his fair share.

Ideally the departments would also use the data to share important insights. Such as... which department has received the most revenue? And... which student has allocated the most taxes to the Department of Books? And... which student has paid the largest total amount of taxes?

The students informally chose 10% to be the tax rate. It will be interesting to see how the tax rate changes over time.

One issue is that all the tax money that isn't spent on labor is taken out of the economy. If each week you remove 10% of the money from the economy then the pennies are going to rapidly dwindle.

After the first coasianism trade (choosing which books to read) the students were given an optional extra credit homework assignment of answering some questions about the process. The students didn't know what "extra credit" meant and asked Michelle. She told them to guess and one student guessed that it meant pennies and another student followed with the guess that more writing meant more pennies. Michelle didn't confirm or deny it. The next day Michelle said that she had never seen so many students turn in their homework. Over the weekend Michelle and I individually "graded" their homework. We didn't use the typical grading system.... we used pennies. We both decided that completing the assignment was worth a penny. My highest valuation was 7 pennies for Brianna's homework. Aiden's homework was pretty good as well so my valuation was 5 pennies.

So extra credit can be used to get pennies into the economy.

Also, pretty early on the subject came up of Michelle participating in the coasianism. The class was pretty enthusiastic about her participating. I told Michelle, via text message, to ask the students whether they would want their parents participating as well. They unanimously said no. Then I told her to ask them whether I could participate in the process. I sent a follow up text... something like "If they say no tell them I want all my pennies back!" I was partly joking. The class all said that I could participate. I've never even met her class and I don't plan to. Kids are obnoxious.

But I remotely participated in the second trade (choosing head of IRS) and the most recent trade (choosing the class insect). In doing so I helped to inject pennies into the economy (80 pennies and then 35 pennies).

The kids definitely don't yet understand the bigger concept otherwise they would want their parents to have the option to participate in the valuation process. More participants means more brainpower. Larger markets are smarter than smaller markets.

Early on Michelle and I discussed whether the kids should be allowed to bring their pennies from home. She thought it would be interesting to not make a rule and then see what happened.

After the first trade... one student, Jacob, "coincidentally" found a penny near his desk. He mentioned it to Michelle and she said something like finders keepers. The very next day he again found a penny near his desk. And again he mentioned it to Michelle. This time she kinda gave him a hard time and asked him what was so special about that part of the classroom that pennies kept magically appearing.

For the second trade... Michelle was going through the valuation forms when she noticed that Christopher had put down around 50 cents for Aiden. She knew that it was more money than he was supposed to have. So she asked him about it and he showed her two quarters. The class all shouted at him... something... maybe about not being able to spend quarters. Michelle made him change his valuation... and he put down the rest of his pennies.

So there were two unwritten rules...

1. No outside money
2. Pennies only

Jacob seemed to be aware of both rules but wanted to "subtly" test the first rule. Christopher, on the other hand, seemed entirely unaware of either rule.

For the most recent trade (class insect)... Christopher successfully argued for being able to use his quarter. Many students started asking if they could bring pennies from home. Michelle replied something like, "I never said that you couldn't". The class got really excited and Jacob said, "I have $5 dollars worth of pennies!" Evidently he had been counting his pennies at home.

Not sure if the kids are going to start begging their parents for pennies. "You want some pennies? Clean your room!" "How many pennies would I get?"

Also, it will be interesting to see if any of the students and their families start using coasianism, rather than voting, to make any family decisions.

bunklocoempire
10-12-2016, 03:52 PM
Born into the penny-aggression classroom system.

What is one to do?

In the very real world of physical needs, immediately rebel against the idea of self preservation through physical means only, and reject the almighty penny.


How would your ideal government work?

Respectively offered.:)

It works now. It's been working for a long time.

Please donate-

General Fund
Supplies/Humanitarian Needs
Gospel Outreach
Building/Grounds

My ideal "government" , or peaceful solution, is already up and working. Any aggression management is honed by the individual in the soul and mind. Any physical aggression issues in this voluntary community are met with courageous love and member participation.

This superior form of voluntary government prepares the individual for death, and works it backwards from there. Learn how to die, so you can learn how to live. This is an all encompassing, peaceful philosophy. Pennies, you can't take them with you.

I am a product of a faith-based, all voluntary school system. I am actively supporting a voluntary faith-based system. I see absolutely no issue with my voluntary faith-based system reclaiming more responsibilities to help our fellow man. All voluntarily, of course.

H. E. Panqui
10-24-2016, 05:41 AM
xerographica writes: "Born into the penny-aggression classroom system."

:cool:

...as i understand it...at least michelle (unlike the vast drooling hoards of republicrats...including many/all 'liberty' republicrats) has properly conceived the [ORIGINAL] issuance/creation of money 'problem'...i. e. michelle issues 'money' directly to people 'pro-rata'...whereas the vast drooling republicrat hoards apparently do not want to confront the hideous reality of real world money issuance/creation...

...never....not a $tinking peep...

...i'd love to see michelle try to organize a simple honest construct whereby the current $tinking $ystem is portrayed:...

...where one or two in the class control the issuance, creation and destruction, etc., of money and the others are, LARGELY, relegated to kissing the arses of the one or two in order to acquire 'money'.... ;)

...methinks the 4th graders would revolt rather quickly...whereas their republicrat elders have $lept their whole lives...

PierzStyx
10-25-2016, 05:35 PM
Born into the penny-aggression classroom system.

What is one to do?

In the very real world of physical needs, immediately rebel against the idea of self preservation through physical means only, and reject the almighty penny.



Respectively offered.:)

It works now. It's been working for a long time.

Please donate-

General Fund
Supplies/Humanitarian Needs
Gospel Outreach
Building/Grounds

My ideal "government" , or peaceful solution, is already up and working. Any aggression management is honed by the individual in the soul and mind. Any physical aggression issues in this voluntary community are met with courageous love and member participation.

This superior form of voluntary government prepares the individual for death, and works it backwards from there. Learn how to die, so you can learn how to live. This is an all encompassing, peaceful philosophy. Pennies, you can't take them with you.

I am a product of a faith-based, all voluntary school system. I am actively supporting a voluntary faith-based system. I see absolutely no issue with my voluntary faith-based system reclaiming more responsibilities to help our fellow man. All voluntarily, of course.

I'm with you on this one. I would rather give money to my church which I know will use it for various causes a thousand times better than the State.


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-oGMgc2mQUXI/T3HeOypBVjI/AAAAAAAAAHk/lZgBrv4rJdI/s1600/tithingSlip.jpg

Xerographica
03-13-2017, 03:47 PM
Here's my reply to a thread in another forum (https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=405189). It will function as an update.

*********************************

Today Classtopia (http://classtopia.blogspot.com/) created their Justice Department. It's their 9th dept.

Just like with the LP theme... the Classtopians use spending rather than voting to make important decisions. However, in Classtopia the winners compensate the losers. I refer to this system as coasianism.

Of course the students like being compensated. Back in November, when they were deciding who should be in charge of their Book Dept, some of the students decided that they would deliberately and intentionally spend their money on a candidate who they felt was sure to lose... Christopher. However, too many other students had the same exact idea...

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-a40xIo8B7d0/WC31uAmqB8I/AAAAAAAABP4/KeuO6fzGpd8H_DFnZZQQb3F9BVlXq0E6wCLcB/s700/Book%2BDepartment%2B-%2BCoasianism.jpg

... and Christopher ended up winning. So all the students who essentially lied about their preferences ending up having to pay for a candidate that they really didn't prefer. They learned their lesson and since then, most of the students have been more or less honest with their valuations.

Christopher didn't remain in charge of the Book Dept for long. Shortly after, another student in the dept ended up simply taking charge of it.

Today their teacher, Michelle, texted me a pic of their valuations for head of their Justice Dept...

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-cHfB5Tmovy8/WMb91VTSVKI/AAAAAAAABfk/Bc1hwvUoesUs93_hrgXBXFnwuDF0RkMcACLcB/s700/Justice%2BDepartment%2BValuation%2B-%2BClasstopia%2BCoasianism.jpg

It's by far the most options that have been available for a coasian decision. So it took me a couple seconds before I noticed the last valuation. Somebody in the classroom was willing to spend a whopping $3.98 so that Christopher could be in charge of the Justice Dept. It was the only valuation for Christopher. My math isn't too great so I looked at the other valuations and eventually figured out that he had won. I asked Michelle who was willing to spend so much money on Christopher. She replied that he was.

We were both rather surprised by the outcome. It was the very first time that a student had single-handedly won. She said that the students had been pretty surprised as well. One of the students had asked, "Does he even have that much money?"

Well... here's his piggy bank...

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-6XXL1QWda5c/WMb9_pLX5MI/AAAAAAAABfo/Z5YJJrD7InYfppB-xi6VoKCMVvj74NZIgCLcB/s700/Christopher%2BBatman%2BPiggy%2BBang%2B-%2BClasstopia.jpg

Of course now it's empty. All the money in Christopher's piggy bank has been proportionally divided among all the students. They didn't get their preferred candidate... so they didn't have to pay any money. Instead, they were compensated according to how much money that they had been willing to pay for their preferred candidate.

Earlier in this thread The East Marches II used the video game term... "pay2win". It was the first time that I had heard the term. But it certainly applies to Christopher. He paid to win. However, it's not like he has a crystal ball. He couldn't know for sure how much money the other students were going to be willing to pay for their preferred candidates. For all he knew they were willing to pay more money and then he would have lost and been proportionally compensated.

If voting had been used instead, then we would have seen how many votes the candidates received. We would have seen and known how popular the candidates were. But with spending, we get to see the actual demand for the candidates. We can see and know how valuable the candidates are. We get to see more. We get to know more. The least blind group will win.