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View Full Version : Gary Johnson Thinks There’s a Good Case for Banning Cigarettes




Lucille
09-17-2016, 10:07 AM
Where there's a will, there's a way.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4W23NIyNbnM

https://www.lewrockwell.com/lrc-blog/libertarian-partys-gary-johnson-thinks-theres-good-case-banning-cigarettes/


From Ben Birnbaum’s profile of Johnson in today’s Politico:


There had also been an eye-opening moment on the streets of Cleveland during the Republican National Convention, when [Johnson and I had] been walking behind a cigarette-wielding Ohioan. As the smoker’s exhaust wafted in our faces, I remarked offhand that—with the advent of e-cigarettes—I thought there was a good libertarian case for banning regular cigarettes. “I do too,” replied the health-obsessed triathlete, recounting his support for anti-smoking efforts in New Mexico.

You go, Gar! Right up there with Bush’s “libertarian” sunset ban of incandescent light bulbs. If it’s one thing that needs stopping, it’s people freely deciding via the market as that’s downright unlibertarian! [/sarcasm]

Too bad the FDA destroyed the e-cig market!

http://statics.cribeo.com/m/12a6/78354_127326_b_245_201.gif

William Tell
09-17-2016, 10:22 AM
Ban Tobacco, legalize pot? Interesting swap.

Krugminator2
09-17-2016, 10:49 AM
Ban Tobacco, legalize pot? Interesting swap.

That is what happens when you are for legalizing pot for all the wrong reasons. It isn't a freedom issue for him, He is for legalizing pot for the same reasons progressives are for legalizing pot and gay marriage. It jives with their personal feelings. When Gary talks about why pot should be legal, he says that it is safer than alcohol, cures backaches, and tastes great as an edible. None of those are libertarian reasons.


It is interesting that the poster on Rockwell's site didn't pick up on the most important part of the Politico article.


Johnson told me he was against the Supreme Court’s Citizens United decision (“I don’t believe corporations are people”)


Johnson is an anti-First Amendment zealot. Being against Citizen's United and the Hobby Lobby decision are indefensible. There is nothing a Johnson supporter can do to defend that. Nothing. These are foundational issues. He has to be the only libertarian on the planet against these. There is no other side.

angelatc
09-17-2016, 11:48 AM
Johnson is an anti-First Amendment zealot. Being against Citizen's United and the Hobby Lobby decision are indefensible. There is nothing a Johnson supporter can do to defend that. Nothing. These are foundational issues. He has to be the only libertarian on the planet against these. There is no other side.

There are plenty of libertarians on these forums who will argue infinitely that corporations are not people and that Citizen's United was the wrong decision. (I am a libertarian who will (and has) argue infinitely that it was indeed decided correctly, and if liberals were actually about civil liberty the decision would have been 9-0.

FSP-Rebel
09-17-2016, 11:55 AM
The LP should be called the Gary Johnson party from now on. As a libertarian, I find more excitement in Trump rather than the hollowed out LP that Johnson has subverted. There is no libertarian case for banning cigs, ffs.

euphemia
09-17-2016, 11:55 AM
This is a candidate not worthy of a protest vote unless the one you are protesting is Hillary Clinton.

Natural Citizen
09-17-2016, 12:11 PM
If you think about it from a purely constitutional perspective, you have the right to petition congress. So that's that. It's pretty much a no brainer. I don't accept that corporations are people but the owner is and they can spend their money on whatever they want.

What is worrisome, though, is when we start seeing corporate penned legislation that sacrifices Individual liberties (like freedom of association for example) absent any consent of the people. So that's something else.

farreri
09-17-2016, 12:16 PM
The paranoid extremist libertarians here are taking this way too literally!

Natural Citizen
09-17-2016, 12:23 PM
The paranoid extremist libertarians here are taking this way too literally!

You kind of have to take it that way. Individual Liberty is a defensive sport. :cool:

Natural Citizen
09-17-2016, 12:30 PM
"In questions of power, then, let no more be heard of confidence in man, but bind him down from mischief by the chains of the Constitution" - Thomas Jefferson (Kentucky Resolutions)....farreri...ya whacko bird.....

Krugminator2
09-17-2016, 12:34 PM
The paranoid extremist libertarians here are taking this way too literally!



Gary pretty clearly said there is a libertarian argument to ban cigarettes.



Johnson told me he was against the Supreme Court’s Citizens United decision (“I don’t believe corporations are people”)
Is being for the Citizen's United case now an extremist libertarian position? There are a lot of issues with gray area where libertarians can disagree. I would include things like a Gary's support for a carbon tax where reasonable people can disagree. People can disagree on foreign policy. Free speech isn't really up for debate.

Mitt Romney was a solid defender of Citizen's United. The people who rail against Citizen's United are almost exclusively left wing crazies. This is kind of a big deal. This is not a small thing.



“But here’s my hypothesis: Are kids really looking for equality of wages, which is not possible? … Or is it equal opportunity? I think it’s about equal opportunity, and equal opportunity is something you can achieve with government. … So I hope that’s the Bernie lure.



I read the rest of the article. I guess he is building a coalition with the Socialist Workers Party. Is it government's job to provide equality of opportunity? Maybe equality before the law. I don't think government forced equality of opportunity is really what the Framers had in mind.

Natural Citizen
09-17-2016, 12:47 PM
Gary pretty clearly said there is a libertarian argument to ban cigarettes.



The only possible argument that one could make would fall under that same "black hole'' that Johnson has already contradicted himself with here. You could likely make a moral argument for it given that Individual liberty is not possible to attain fully without accepting both its primary moral foundation and its fundamental principles together as an Indivisible whole. So you could try making the case that way. But he'd be a hypocrite to do so.

A lot of people tend to say the word 'libertarian" but they reject the moral foundation for Individual Liberty while trying to ride on the principles alone. This is a mistake because one cannot make a legitimate claim of right to the benefits of Individual Liberty fully without accepting the primary foundation for its moral code along with it's fundamental principles together. They cannot be accepted and rejected piece-meal. To do that guarantees that the Individual will have no legitimate claim to its benefits at all. Libertines do that. Yet they identify as libertarian and speak in a way that is seemingly representative of libertarianism when it really isn't. In fact, most times it's actually contrary to the concept of Individual Liberty when the former is considered and placed into proper perspective. The fact is that libertine is not libertarian. It's like talking to the wall when you try to tell them that, though.

That's a topic for itself, though. Still, though, you're free to sin, I suppose. So it becomes moot to that extent. I haven't really thought that part through all the way. There's a proper definition of governance and there is an improper definition. We get back to what is lawful versus what is legal again. Or we should anyway.

puppetmaster
09-17-2016, 02:54 PM
Hahahahahah......what a moron. Sound like he is as libertarian as Trump. Maybe even worse because he pretends to be something he is not.

RJ Liberty
09-17-2016, 03:16 PM
It is interesting that the poster on Rockwell's site didn't pick up on the most important part of the Politico article.

Johnson told me he was against the Supreme Court’s Citizens United decision (“I don’t believe corporations are people”)

Huh? Johnson's official position on Citizens United is here (https://www.isidewith.com/candidate-guide/bernie-sanders-vs-gary-johnson/domestic-policy/campaign-finance): "Gary Johnson’s answer: Yes, any restriction on campaign spending violates the first amendment."

Johnson has repeatedly supported Citizens United. For example, in his previous campaign as well. Source. (http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/politics/item/12532-the-%E2%80%9Cother%E2%80%9D-candidates-for-president)



Civil Liberties: Johnson’s positions on civil liberties (what traditionally have been called God-given “inalienable rights”) are the strongest of any candidate expected to be on most ballots in November. Johnson wouldn’t have signed the NDAA (which allows presidents to indefinitely detain American citizens), is against the Patriot Act and warrantless surveillance, is against torture, and is for what he calls “due process” for terror suspects. He remains open to special military tribunals (instead of regular trial by jury) for certain terrorist suspects, however. Johnson is a solid supporter of the Second Amendment’s individual right to keep and bear arms.

Of the 2010 Citizens United Supreme Court decision, which allows citizens to associate into corporations and spend money to persuade voters without federal government permission, Johnson takes a strong First Amendment stand. “I think it comes under the First Amendment, that they should be able to contribute as much money as they want.” Johnson makes the argument that more political speech by those outside of the half-dozen corporations that control most of the mainstream media “makes politicians more accountable, not less accountable.”

Danke
09-17-2016, 03:46 PM
Corporations are persons not people. They are however made up of people.

oyarde
09-17-2016, 03:54 PM
I say go ahead , ban 'em .I will make millions . Right now , only govt is making millions with a state tax , Fed tax and sales tax that is more money than the grower , mnfg and retail seller split. They sell for 6 now and govt gets 3 everybody else gets a dollar .I will sell them for 20 and keep the govt 3 .

Krugminator2
09-17-2016, 04:32 PM
Huh? Johnson's official position on Citizens United is here (https://www.isidewith.com/candidate-guide/bernie-sanders-vs-gary-johnson/domestic-policy/campaign-finance): "Gary Johnson’s answer: Yes, any restriction on campaign spending violates the first amendment."

Johnson has repeatedly supported Citizens United. For example, in his previous campaign as well. Source. (http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/politics/item/12532-the-%E2%80%9Cother%E2%80%9D-candidates-for-president)

Well. That isn't the impression he left with the Politico reporter. And he was quoted. And given his lack of support for Hobby Lobby and religious freedom laws, it doesn't seem too out of character.

eleganz
09-17-2016, 04:36 PM
Well. That isn't the impression he left with the Politico reporter. And he was quoted. And given his lack of support for Hobby Lobby and religious freedom laws, it doesn't seem too out of character.

So are we really comparing GJ's own words with the impressions of a "Politico reporter"?

Natural Citizen
09-17-2016, 04:43 PM
I say go ahead , ban 'em .I will make millions . Right now , only govt is making millions with a state tax , Fed tax and sales tax that is more money than the grower , mnfg and retail seller split. They sell for 6 now and govt gets 3 everybody else gets a dollar .I will sell them for 20 and keep the govt 3 .

One of my brothers smokes like a chimney. What he does is he buys a pound of tobacco in a bag and he buys three boxes of those filters that are already made up into a paper. I think each box makes one carton. So he makes 3 cartons of smokes for like 24 bucks. So that's 8 bucks a carton at 80 cents a pack. I think they're like 8 bucks a pack around here in the store. Of course, the last time I was in NY I saw they were like 12 bucks a pack.

That's crazy. That's almost a mortgage payment if you're a two packs a day person.

oyarde
09-17-2016, 04:56 PM
One of my brothers smokes like a chimney. What he does is he buys a pound of tobacco in a bag and he buys three boxes of those filters that are already made up into a paper. I think each box makes one carton. So he makes 3 cartons of smokes for like 24 bucks. So that's 8 bucks a carton at 80 cents a pack. I think they're like 8 bucks a pack around here in the store. Of course, the last time I was in NY I saw they were like 12 bucks a pack.

That's crazy. That's almost a mortgage payment if you're a two packs a day person.
When I quit I had figured it saved me 1890 per yr . That would cover my electric bill for a year even if I did not burn wood and kept it like a meat locker in the summer .

Krugminator2
09-17-2016, 05:04 PM
So are we really comparing GJ's own words with the impressions of a "Politico reporter"?

Yeah. I see quote marks and he is using the wording of the left. Is it really hard to believe that he hasn't changed his position or that he didn't modify his position while talking a liberal reporter? The source for his support of Citizen's United is isidewith and and a 2012 article.

He modified his views depending on who he was talking to about a carbon tax. Here is the vaccination stuff. https://www.isidewith.com/candidate-guide/gary-johnson/science/mandatory-vaccinations

Should the federal government require children to be vaccinated for preventable diseases?stats (https://www.isidewith.com/poll/2407038823)discuss (https://www.isidewith.com/poll/965649#discuss)Gary Johnson’s answer: No

http://digital.vpr.net/post/reversal-gov-gary-johnson-now-supports-mandatory-vaccination#stream/0
"In 2011, Johnson tweeted (https://twitter.com/govgaryjohnson/status/113419678730301440) “No to mandatory vaccines,” but asked in an interview with VPR Wednesday about his position, Johnson said he now believes that vaccinations should be mandatory
“You know, since I’ve said that … I’ve come to find out that without mandatory vaccines, the vaccines that would in fact be issued would not be effective,” ".


Truthfully I don't think he has core ideology. He is like a calculus student who tries to memorize answers without understanding the concepts.

RJ Liberty
09-17-2016, 06:26 PM
Yeah. I see quote marks and he is using the wording of the left. Is it really hard to believe that he hasn't changed his position or that he didn't modify his position while talking a liberal reporter? The source for his support of Citizen's United is isidewith and and a 2012 article.

Johnson himself took the isidewith.com quiz. The quote from Politico is the only place I see on the Internet where he is quoted as saying he doesn't support Citizens United. I just did a search on the phrase "I don’t believe corporations are people”+"Gary Johnson", and it pulls up that Politico article... and this forum page. That's it.



He modified his views depending on who he was talking to about a carbon tax. Here is the vaccination stuff.

http://drrimatruthreports.com/wp-content/uploads/Johnson-on-forced-vax.redacted.jpg

donnay
09-17-2016, 06:33 PM
Well. That isn't the impression he left with the Politico reporter. And he was quoted. And given his lack of support for Hobby Lobby and religious freedom laws, it doesn't seem too out of character.

Johnson ignored religious freedom by agreeing to mandatory vaccines.

John F Kennedy III
09-17-2016, 06:41 PM
"good libertarian case for banning"

STOP. GO BACK TO DRAWING BOARD. BANG HEAD ON DRAWING BOARD TIL SOMETHING USEFUL FALLS OUT.

Natural Citizen
09-17-2016, 06:42 PM
Johnson ignored religious freedom by agreeing to mandatory vaccines.

I like to think that freedom is freedom no matter what one's faith happens to be. Or lack thereof. Religious Liberty=Individual Liberty. So in ignoring religious freedom, he's essentially ignoring freedom itself. But I understand what you're saying regardless.

donnay
09-17-2016, 07:03 PM
I like to think that freedom is freedom no matter what one's faith happens to be. Or lack thereof. Religious Liberty=Individual Liberty. So in ignoring religious freedom, he's essentially ignoring freedom itself. But I understand what you're saying regardless.

Better put. Thanks.

Origanalist
09-17-2016, 07:07 PM
One of my brothers smokes like a chimney. What he does is he buys a pound of tobacco in a bag and he buys three boxes of those filters that are already made up into a paper. I think each box makes one carton. So he makes 3 cartons of smokes for like 24 bucks. So that's 8 bucks a carton at 80 cents a pack. I think they're like 8 bucks a pack around here in the store. Of course, the last time I was in NY I saw they were like 12 bucks a pack.

That's crazy. That's almost a mortgage payment if you're a two packs a day person.

I do the same, have been for twenty years.

puppetmaster
09-18-2016, 12:54 AM
Johnson ignored religious freedom by agreeing to mandatory vaccines.

Yes

anaconda
09-18-2016, 02:58 AM
How does the LP look in the mirror each morning?

presence
09-18-2016, 06:36 AM
How does the LP look in the mirror each morning?

http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/0809/really-good-mirror-demotivational-poster-1222217714.jpg






google agorism

William Tell
09-18-2016, 07:05 AM
http://drrimatruthreports.com/wp-content/uploads/Johnson-on-forced-vax.redacted.jpg
Ralf. That's a really cool way of spelling the name. I think that's the coolest thing I've ever seen from Johnson.:)

RJ Liberty
09-18-2016, 08:02 AM
Ralf. That's a really cool way of spelling the name. I think that's the coolest thing I've ever seen from Johnson.:)

He's definitely not great at typing things out on his iPhone. The cool part, IMO, is that he got back to a concerned voter, himself, with a response.