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undergroundrr
09-16-2016, 06:18 AM
http://www.politico.com/story/2016/09/gary-johnson-hillary-clinton-polls-228240


NEW YORK — Gary Johnson was never supposed to be a problem for Hillary Clinton.
The low-profile Libertarian’s presence on the ballot would serve as an easy out for #NeverTrump Republicans, Democrats aligned with the nominee have long figured, and that could only hurt Donald Trump.

But as national and battleground polls tighten and Democrats’ hand-wringing grows more urgent, operatives both within and allied with Clinton’s political operation who are looking around to explain Trump’s new polling strength are growing increasingly wary of the former New Mexico governor. His appeal with young and libertarian-leaning liberals, they worry, could create a growing headache for them in western states like Nevada, Colorado, and Arizona — if not yet reason to believe he could hand the states to Trump.
For now, Clinton’s national team and Democrats close to them chalk up Johnson-focused concerns to classic liberal panic, especially as they think his window is closing. While a new national Quinnipiac poll this week showed 60 percent of Clinton voters and 50 percent of Trump voters want to see Johnson on the debate stages — and while his campaign placed a full-page New York Times ad to that effect on Wednesday — his chances of reaching the polling threshold are vanishing rapidly. Top Clinton officials long expected Trump to agitate to get Johnson on the stage, but the Republican nominee has said he doesn’t want that to happen.
A handful of recent polls show Johnson drawing evenly from Trump’s and Clinton’s support — not just whittling down Trump’s.
“Westerners in general, Nevadans in particular, are independent thinkers, and we have a wide variety in our state, between urban Nevada and rural Nevada,” said Bob Miller, the state’s last Democratic governor, making the case that Clinton “definitely” needs to be concerned about Johnson’s presence there. “There’s just every kind of opinion you can think of. [The] northeastern part of the state and other parts of rural Nevada have a libertarian element."
It’s a brewing in-state concern rather than a national freak-out so far, especially since Johnson’s inclusion in polling has made it nearly impossible for Trump to break 45 percent nationally. Top Clinton operatives in those states have been monitoring Johnson’s appeal for months, yet there’s no Johnson strike-force in Brooklyn, and his name rarely surfaces in the strategy calls.
But the Quinnipiac poll spells out the reason some in-state Clinton aides have been tracking his movement much more closely than they ever expected to: he may act as a ceiling on Trump.
Certainly, though, he’s taking support from Clinton, too.
She leads by five points among likely voters in a two-way national race, 48 percent to 43 percent. But when Johnson and Green Party candidate Jill Stein are included, Clinton’s lead shrinks to two: she’s at 41 points, with Trump at 39, Johnson at 13, and Stein at 4. Democrats assume that all of Stein’s support comes from the Clinton column, meaning Johnson’s is split roughly evenly between Clinton and Trump.
That’s a break from the earlier Washington wisdom that Johnson’s inclusion on ballots was a clear benefit to Clinton as a go-to for conservatives uncomfortable with Trump. Instead, he has turned into a “None of These Candidates” option much like the one by that name that will also be printed on Nevada’s ballot.
Johnson’s campaign manager Ron Nielson confirmed that his team is seeing Johnson pull roughly evenly from Trump and Clinton, but he said his candidate has targeted the western states as he races to gain name recognition in an attempt to take votes primarily from Trump — a result that would cheer Clinton.
“We hope as we move forward in some of these western states like New Mexico, Colorado, Nevada that as Johnson moves toward second place, some of the Trump folks will see that Trump will not win that state and join us against Hillary Clinton,” said Nielson. “These states could determine the outcome of the presidential election, and that’s why we targeted them."
Clinton has maintained a steady lead in both New Mexico and Colorado throughout the year, but her strategists in Colorado — once considered a core swing state — have been warning that Johnson could pull from her support there for months. While that hasn’t happened, recent polling shows that Nevada is still a neck-and-neck race: Clinton leads by less than a point there according to the RealClearPolitics average.
“My understanding is that Trump has remained fairly steady and the transition recently has been the Clinton campaign slipping in some of the polls, and where that happens it seems like [Johnson] or ‘none of the above’ is on the rise,” said Miller of his home state, where the race has appeared to tighten slightly in recent weeks. “They’ve got to really work hard to make sure that the vote gets out. A lot of it is independents, so she’s got to project to those voters as well."
Accordingly, Clinton’s current battleground organizing surge designed to drive base turnout is her team’s primary answer to any concerns that Johnson’s causing her too much trouble.
Plus, said Ohio Rep. Tim Ryan, a prominent Clinton supporter, as the race tightens and Trump’s numbers look better and better, voters who have been supporting Johnson as a protest are likely to get nervous.
“People who want to park their vote with the Libertarian are coming to grips with the fact that [their vote] in some sense is helping Donald Trump,” he said.

Gabriel Debenedetti

adissa
09-16-2016, 06:20 AM
He's sure tried hard not to. He's done everything he can think of to help her.

dean.engelhardt
09-16-2016, 06:21 AM
Finally can say a vote for Gary Johnson is a vote for Gary Johnson.

CaptUSA
09-16-2016, 06:23 AM
He's sure tried hard not to. He's done everything he can think of to help her.

Really?! By appealing to her potential voters?!


Seriously. Trumpcuckers. :rolleyes:

adissa
09-16-2016, 07:14 AM
Really?! By appealing to her potential voters?!


Seriously. Trumpcuckers. :rolleyes:Seriously? All he's ever done is criticize Donald. When has he ever had something bad to say about the witch?

RJ Liberty
09-16-2016, 07:21 AM
Really?! By appealing to her potential voters?!

Seriously. Trumpcuckers. :rolleyes:

My thought, too. Gary can continue to strip away Clinton voters by simply being a nice guy, in good health, who proposes government reforms like ending the IRS, stopping the NSA from spying on Americans, legalizing marijuana, etc. Trump fans seem to want Johnson to become Trump 2.0, and attack her constantly. That's not going to attract Clinton voters, and would in fact peel away Trumpkins.

CaptUSA
09-16-2016, 08:00 AM
Seriously? All he's ever done is criticize Donald. When has he ever had something bad to say about the witch?

Read RJ Liberty's post. He answered you perfectly.

Trump's got your brains all twisted up. You guys can't even think straight anymore.

Chester Copperpot
09-16-2016, 08:06 AM
My thought, too. Gary can continue to strip away Clinton voters by simply being a nice guy, in good health, who proposes government reforms like ending the IRS, stopping the NSA from spying on Americans, legalizing marijuana, etc. Trump fans seem to want Johnson to become Trump 2.0, and attack her constantly. That's not going to attract Clinton voters, and would in fact peel away Trumpkins.

I wasnt aware of this... Might have to just vote for Johnson now.

EBounding
09-16-2016, 08:10 AM
My thought, too. Gary can continue to strip away Clinton voters by simply being a nice guy, in good health, who proposes government reforms like ending the IRS, stopping the NSA from spying on Americans, legalizing marijuana, etc. Trump fans seem to want Johnson to become Trump 2.0, and attack her constantly. That's not going to attract Clinton voters, and would in fact peel away Trumpkins.

Johnson is also the only candidate who's entertained the notion of pardoning Snowden. Hillary wants him jailed and Trump wants him executed.

RJ Liberty
09-16-2016, 08:14 AM
I wasnt aware of this... Might have to just vote for Johnson now.

How is it that good, liberty-minded people on this board don't know Johnson has said he'd eliminate the IRS?! Well, here's more for folks to read:

http://thehill.com/regulation/282381-libertarian-gary-johnson-id-eliminate-nsa-irs-if-elected (http://thehill.com/regulation/282381-libertarian-gary-johnson-id-eliminate-nsa-irs-if-elected)

Peace&Freedom
09-16-2016, 08:27 AM
My thought, too. Gary can continue to strip away Clinton voters by simply being a nice guy, in good health, who proposes government reforms like ending the IRS, stopping the NSA from spying on Americans, legalizing marijuana, etc. Trump fans seem to want Johnson to become Trump 2.0, and attack her constantly. That's not going to attract Clinton voters, and would in fact peel away Trumpkins.

My thought, too, from two months ago, and in my current blog post (below). So much for the view that Trump supporters can't see this. When Johnson made the pragmatic decision to largely triangulate, not attack Hillary voters, and run a left-libertarian style campaign, he should have foreseen the trade-off to get those votes was going to be attacks from the anti-Hillary forces. That doesn't mean those attacks are wrong, it just means Johnson's priority is getting as many votes as he can, not being correct about Hillary and losing gettable votes from that direction.

Those thinking he should have been Trump 2.0, however, believe he possibly would have gotten MORE gettable votes by triangulating TRUMP in this fashion, instead of giving Hilary a pass on her tons of sins. Doing things that way would have also unified the LP liberty side with the broader populist liberty forces siding with Trump, and thus continued the coalition Paul forged with his candidacies. Johnson has chosen the path of dividing that coalition again, for real but short term gains. So whose pragmatism will turn out to be better, Johnson's, or most of the liberty movement?

CaptUSA
09-16-2016, 08:33 AM
...unified the LP liberty side with the broader populist liberty forces siding with Trump...

http://memesvault.com/wp-content/uploads/Hysterical-Laughing-Gif-12.gif

Peace&Freedom
09-16-2016, 08:49 AM
http://memesvault.com/wp-content/uploads/Hysterical-Laughing-Gif-12.gif

It must be the elite laughing. You do realize that most of the grassroots are with Trump, not Johnson, don't you? You do realize Paul did unify the libertarian and patriot wings of the movement in 2008 and 2012, to the degree that both the LP and CP would have nominated him if he had sought it from them? And that this alliance has been damaged, or torn asunder by Johnson attacking the populist choice in this election?

CPUd
09-16-2016, 08:52 AM
It must be the elite laughing. You do realize that most of the grassroots are with Trump, not Johnson, do you? You do realize Paul did unify the libertarian and patriot wings of the movement in 2008 and 2012, to the degree that both the LP and CP would have nominated him if he had sought it from them? And that this alliance has been damaged, or torn asunder by Johnson attacking the populist choice in this election?

Trump stands with the elites, who he made a deal with to secure the nomination, in exchange from helping them centralize power by taking away from the grassroots.

RNC Rules Committee (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?498056-RNC-Rules-Committee)

Peace&Freedom
09-16-2016, 11:06 AM
Trump stands with the elites, who he made a deal with to secure the nomination, in exchange from helping them centralize power by taking away from the grassroots.

RNC Rules Committee (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?498056-RNC-Rules-Committee)

You bought the establishment's spin, once again. Learn to play better chess. Manafort negotiated that deal to shut down the Never Trumpers from making even more of a stink than they went ahead and did anyway at the con. Changing the rules in a major way would have opened up momentum for the NT side passing the "conscience clause" and other measures to reverse Trump's nomination. They would have leveraged "see? we voted for these delegate-friendly changes, now you must vote for ours" to get the things they wanted on their side.

Manafort stopped that in the bud, to prevent the slippery slope from starting. The battle was not about centralizing power (the leadership already had that), it was about keeping Trump from gaining power, from which he can make real and lasting changes to the party once in the White House. Whereas giving the rules committee the power to make all the changes would have REMOVED the power of the delegates or grassroots from doing so:

http://www.breitbart.com/2016-presidential-race/2016/04/16/reince-priebus-to-rnc-leave-convention-rules-alone-next-week-in-hollywood-let-delegates-themselves-handle-in-cleveland/

Ender
09-16-2016, 11:32 AM
I wasnt aware of this... Might have to just vote for Johnson now.

A lot of Johnson's stances are pretty Libertarian- check it out here:

http://www.ontheissues.org/Gary_Johnson.htm

PierzStyx
09-16-2016, 12:09 PM
Seriously? All he's ever done is criticize Donald. When has he ever had something bad to say about the witch?

Well, he does. He always talks about the Dems and Repubs. Thing is the positions of the LP that align with Liberty (anti-Drug War, anti-military intervention, etc.) and appeal to the liberals are naturally drawing people away from her.

On the other hand, being fiscally conservative, wanting government regulating people less, and expanding diplomacy, long highlights of class conservatism, don't apply with Trump becaus ehe has brought so much fo the Alt. Left into the party on his side. So Johnson has to be more aggressive with Trump than he does HIlls.

donnay
09-16-2016, 12:22 PM
A lot of Johnson's stances are pretty Libertarian- check it out here:

http://www.ontheissues.org/Gary_Johnson.htm

Trojan Horse. It would be a Greek tragedy if he got in and get ready to roll up your sleeves for your mandatory vaccines then.

The sad thing is a good many neocons are backing Johnson. Marvin Bush loves Johnson.

Ender
09-16-2016, 01:11 PM
Trojan Horse. It would be a Greek tragedy if he got in and get ready to roll up your sleeves for your mandatory vaccines then.

The sad thing is a good many neocons are backing Johnson. Marvin Bush loves Johnson.

I'm not voting for Johnson and I certainly don't back forced vaccines, as you should know.

However- this "Trojan Horse" is much more libertarian than Trump- especially in supporting the crony war machine, spying on citizens, and killing Snowden.

NewRightLibertarian
09-16-2016, 01:21 PM
Considering he repeats all of Hillary's talking points nearly verbatim on the campaign trail, this isn't much of a surprise.

donnay
09-16-2016, 01:25 PM
I'm not voting for Johnson and I certainly don't back forced vaccines, as you should know.

However- this "Trojan Horse" is much more libertarian than Trump- especially in supporting the crony war machine, spying on citizens, and killing Snowden.

I never thought or said Trump leaned Libertarian. I do look at the fact that the establishment have been going out of their way to ostracize Trump and embrace Johnson and cover-up for Hillary. I find it very curious when Mitt Romney says Johnson should be in the debates. Really? Where was ol' Mitt rooting for Dr. Paul?

The neocon darlings are all making nose for Johnson. If they loved Libertarians so much where have they been all these years?

It's time to step out of the box folks! This whole thing stinks to high Heaven and Johnson is a Trohan horse.