How pro-Saturated Fat studies fooled everyone

[farreri]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aq0hlF0hlQ4

These are the kinds of tactics that big Cattle, Dairy, & Egg industry does to make it look like their products aren't the cause of disease so gullible people will continue eating their products in large amounts which later will benefit Big pHARMa when you get sick from eating so much of their products over the years.

Humans were designed to thrive on a low-fat plant based diet (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?489785-The-Problem-With-the-Paleo-Diet-Argument).

[tod evans]

Humans were designed to thrive on a low-fat plant based diet.

Omnivores were "designed" to eat everything, feel free to eat all the plants you like just please quit with the overt hype.

Your "studies" and opinions are worth exactly what I've paid for them...

My money is spent buying feed and paying the butcher.

[donnay]

Saturated fats are necessary for absorption of certain vitamins, minerals, immune system function, and cell membrane structure.

Polyunsaturated fats, hydrogenated fats, and trans-fats are actually dangerous and should be avoided. Monounsaturated fats are good as long as they are not heated--think Olive oil.

[dannno]

That doesn't make any sense.

The people out there pushing for the high fat, low carb diets are advocating meat and dairy that doesn't get produced by the "big Cattle, Dairy & Egg industry"

It makes more sense that big ag was pushing high grain diets over the last few decades, and the horrible health problems this has caused is finally being attributed to grains and carbs - grains are highly subsidized by government and if people eat meat then they can feed them meat that is fed by the grains they grow.. because if it turns out too much grains are bad then animals eat grass and forage, people eat less grains and Monsanto doesn't get to sell their GMO grain seeds and all their fancy chemicals.

[specsaregood]

Monounsaturated fats are good as long as they are not heated--think Olive oil.

Studies show that the monounsaturated fats are fairly safe from oxidative damage from cooking. Its perfectly fine to heat your olive oil, the goodies in the oil protect it.

[donnay]

Studies show that the monounsaturated fats are fairly safe from oxidative damage from cooking. Its perfectly fine to heat your olive oil, the goodies in the oil protect it.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12358466

I use EVOO first press/cold pressed for infused oils but I stay away from cooking with it.

[farreri]

Omnivores were "designed" to eat everything, feel free to eat all the plants you like
Do you even know what plant based means?


just please quit with the overt hype.
You never say that to Donnay's diet posts. Why?


and paying the butcher.
Not man enough to butcher animals yourself? ;)

[farreri]

Saturated fats are necessary for absorption of certain vitamins, minerals, immune system function, and cell membrane structure.
Where do cows get their saturated fat from?

[farreri]

That doesn't make any sense.
It doesn't make sense to you because you don't want it to make since because you've been brainwashed by paleo sites like Mark Steroids Sisson's BS website.


The people out there pushing for the high fat, low carb diets are advocating meat and dairy that doesn't get produced by the "big Cattle, Dairy & Egg industry"
The Cattlemen's association represents all cattle ranchers. You think they give two fucks about what kind of beef you buy?


It makes more sense that big ag was pushing high grain diets over the last few decades
Oh, big ag is bad, but big cattle, dairy, & egg is good. LOL! Big ag also pushed oils, but paleo saps want to blame the whole grain. Why are the people from the Blue Zones areas the longest living communities if their diets were based on a high grain diet? Because they weren't eating a lot of saturated for or oils to ruin their carb diets. You've been Phooled by Paleo.


and the horrible health problems this has caused is finally being attributed to grains and carbs
But you said you felt pretty good on your whole grains mostly vegetarian diet. You can't have it both ways.

[tod evans]

Do you even know what plant based means?


You never say that to Donnay's diet posts. Why?


Not man enough to butcher animals yourself? ;)

Donnay posts on a variety of subjects using a tone that's more instructive than condescending..

I butcher small critters and fowl myself but prefer the superior job done by a professional for large carcasses...

I still remember vividly making pork rinds in the barnyard and headcheese cooking down throughout the night.......

Nothing like warm garden tomatoes and fresh cracklings from a pig that was bleeding out only hours before....

[dannno]

The Cattlemen's association represents all cattle ranchers. You think they give two fucks about what kind of beef you buy?

Uh ya, of course big ag cares about us buying animals that eat grains.. That is how Monsanto makes money. They don't make money when cows eat grass.




But you said you felt pretty good on your whole grains mostly vegetarian diet. You can't have it both ways.

Ya it was better than the Standard American Diet, I ate more processed grains and sugars than when I was vegetarian.. When I was vegetarian I ate more rice, less bread, more vegetables, less sugar and more legumes. That worked out well for about 10 years, then I started gaining weight for no apparent reason.. it was because my insulin response was starting to decline with my age. So I went paleo and have been very trim for the last 4+ years.

[donnay]

Where do cows get their saturated fat from?

Their body makes it especially if they are grass-fed not grain-fed. There is a reason why they have four stomachs.

Effect of feeding systems on omega-3 fatty acids, conjugated linoleic acid and trans fatty acids in Australian beef cuts: potential impact on human health.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16500874

A review of fatty acid profiles and antioxidant content in grass-fed and grain-fed beef
http://nutritionj.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1475-2891-9-10

Effects of conventional and grass-feeding systems on the nutrient composition of beef
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18641180

[Zippyjuan]

Omnivores were "designed" to eat everything, feel free to eat all the plants you like just please quit with the overt hype.

Your "studies" and opinions are worth exactly what I've paid for them...

My money is spent buying feed and paying the butcher.

Ominvore is correct. We are designed to eat a variety of foods. Eating a lot of one type of foods is where we get into troubles. Saturated fats are good- in moderation. Even sugars are fine if we don't consume too much of them. Problem is many Americans do consume too much. If a table spoon of butter is good, a five pound tub of butter is not necessarily better.

Everything in moderation.

We don't have the teeth or digestive system to process large amounts of meats or fats.

[tod evans]

Ominvore is correct. We are designed to eat a variety of foods. Eating a lot of one type of foods is where we get into troubles. Saturated fats are good- in moderation. Even sugars are fine if we don't consume too much of them. Problem is many Americans do consume too much. If a table spoon of butter is good, a five pound tub of butter is not necessarily better.

Everything in moderation.

We don't have the teeth or digestive system to process large amounts of meats or fats.

Nor were we "designed" to exist on plant matter alone.

I agree that sensible eating habits include a variety of foods and those who take the time to understand their own body and their individual dietary needs are probably going to fare better than the person who spends an inordinate amount of time relying on studies and opinions of experts..

[Suzanimal]

Nor were we "designed" to exist on plant matter alone.

I agree that sensible eating habits include a variety of foods and those who take the time to understand their own body and their individual dietary needs are probably going to fare better than the person who spends an inordinate amount of time relying on studies and opinions of experts..

This ^^^

[Suzanimal]

Ominvore is correct. We are designed to eat a variety of foods. Eating a lot of one type of foods is where we get into troubles. Saturated fats are good- in moderation. Even sugars are fine if we don't consume too much of them. Problem is many Americans do consume too much. If a table spoon of butter is good, a five pound tub of butter is not necessarily better.

Everything in moderation.

We don't have the teeth or digestive system to process large amounts of meats or fats.

Yet somehow we manage.:)

[squarepusher]

Omnivores were "designed" to eat everything, feel free to eat all the plants you like just please quit with the overt hype.

Your "studies" and opinions are worth exactly what I've paid for them...

My money is spent buying feed and paying the butcher.



Ominvore is correct. We are designed to eat a variety of foods. Eating a lot of one type of foods is where we get into troubles. Saturated fats are good- in moderation. Even sugars are fine if we don't consume too much of them. Problem is many Americans do consume too much. If a table spoon of butter is good, a five pound tub of butter is not necessarily better.

Everything in moderation.

We don't have the teeth or digestive system to process large amounts of meats or fats.

citation needed? Humans all evolved from and all our ancestors are vegetarian. Healthiest and longest lived societies today are vegetarian.

[heavenlyboy34]

citation needed? Humans all evolved from and all our ancestors are vegetarian. Healthiest and longest lived societies today are vegetarian.

Citation needed? Extraordinary claim is extraordinary, and requires extraordinary proof. ;) If you believe your anthropology books, our ancestors have canine teeth for tearing flesh. :D

[tod evans]

citation needed? Humans all evolved from and all our ancestors are vegetarian. Healthiest and longest lived societies today are vegetarian.

All of my ancestors ate meat as far back as my family history goes, late 1500's is what we've been able to document...

Now your family may be different.

Sorry man but I don't buy into this 'eating like food' idea some folks subscribe to. (My food eats primarily plants)

[donnay]

All of my ancestors ate meat as far back as my family history goes, late 1500's is what we've been able to document...

Now your family may be different.

Sorry man but I don't buy into this 'eating like food' idea some folks subscribe to. (My food eats primarily plants)


Even the Bible gives specifics of the meats that were clean to eat.

[Zippyjuan]

But they did not only eat the meat. The Bible mentions bread more (and fishes).

http://creationislove.com/wp-content/uploads/human-biology-indicates-our-optimal-food-diet-a-comparison-of-digestive-systems-for-frugivores-omnivores-carnivores-herbivores-hires.jpg

[donnay]

I was referring to Leviticus 11.

[farreri]

Donnay posts on a variety of subjects using a tone that's more instructive than condescending..

Nothing like warm garden tomatoes and fresh cracklings from a pig that was bleeding out only hours before....
You're butthurt over my post's because you think it has a condescending tone, but have no problem watching a pig bleed out.

http://cdn2.crushable.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/jlaw-okay.gif

[farreri]

Uh ya, of course big ag cares about us buying animals that eat grains.. That is how Monsanto makes money. They don't make money when cows eat grass.
I never said big ag isn't corrupt. I just think it's funny a bunch of you don't think that big cattle, dairy, or egg is corrupt.


Ya it was better than the Standard American Diet, I ate more processed grains and sugars than when I was vegetarian.. When I was vegetarian I ate more rice, less bread, more vegetables, less sugar and more legumes. That worked out well for about 10 years, then I started gaining weight for no apparent reason.. it was because my insulin response was starting to decline with my age. So I went paleo and have been very trim for the last 4+ years.
How do you know your insulin response started to decline? Blood work proof?

[farreri]

Their body makes it especially if they are grass-fed
Yes, their bodies make it after eating plant foods. Same with humans. We technically don't need saturated fats from outside sources.

[farreri]

Nor were we "designed" to exist on plant matter alone.
Where did I say we were? But to let you know, we can exist on plant matter alone.

[farreri]

(My food eats primarily plants)
Do you see the irony in that?

[specsaregood]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12358466

I use EVOO first press/cold pressed for infused oils but I stay away from cooking with it.

I still say its pretty much ok to use for cooking as long as you don't overcook it. I sautee long and slow for most stuff I use olive oil. I tend to use it sparingly during te sautee process, then dress with some good unfiltered stuff when its done cooking if it needs more oil. what doesn't? :)

Here is Sisson POV:


In one study, the authors heated various oils to “deep-frying conditions” and checked oxidative markers every three hours. The olive oils made it 24-27 hours of constant high heating before reaching the maximum legal value of heat damage. Not bad, and it’s not like you’re going to use your olive oil to deep fry anyway.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20678538

Despite being heated at 180 degrees C (356 degrees F) for 36 hours, two varieties of extra virgin olive oil exhibited strong resistance to oxidative damage and retained most of their “minor [phenolic] compounds.”
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17935291

But then there’s this study, in which subjects were given heated olive oil meals, heated safflower oil meals, unheated olive oil meals, and unheated safflower oil meals. Both of the heated oils and the unheated safflower oil resulted in elevated postprandial oxidative markers, while eating unheated olive oil resulted in none. Note, though, that the olive oil was probably refined or light (otherwise they would have called it “virgin” or “extra virgin”) and thus devoid of significant phenolics with antioxidant properties. Also, the oils were heated at 210 degrees C (410 degrees F) for eight hours, which seems excessive. The home cook sauteeing some shrimp and onions in white wine and EVOO is unlikely to hit 210 degrees C, let alone stay there for eight hours.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11755938

Let’s put it to rest – olive oil, especially good quality virgin olive oil with all the phenolics intact, is decently resistant to heat-incurred oxidative damage and a great addition to your diet. And if you’re worried about exposure damage, adding a bit of vitamin E to olive oil seems to reduce oxidation.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10694051

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/defending-olive-oils-reputation/

[heavenlyboy34]

Yes, their bodies make it after eating plant foods. Same with humans. We technically don't need saturated fats from outside sources.

You don't "need" a lot of things. But if your goal is something beyond just staying alive(i.e. "optimal health", however you define it), you'll do well to consume a variety of things, including saturated fats. :)

[Suzanimal]

Don't let Danke see that, it might trigger him and he doesn't have a safe space anymore.




http://creationislove.com/wp-content/uploads/human-biology-indicates-our-optimal-food-diet-a-comparison-of-digestive-systems-for-frugivores-omnivores-carnivores-herbivores-hires.jpg

[tod evans]

You're butthurt over my post's because you think it has a condescending tone, but have no problem watching a pig bleed out.


I'm not "butthurt" in the least.

And no, I certainly don't have a problem looking my food in the eye before killing it, in fact I find people who do have problems with killing their food weak.

Feel free to eat what you like, I could care less.

It's when you try to promote your dietary ideas as superior that I get rankled and call you on your BS.

Every human body is somewhat different and responds to foods somewhat differently, just as every body responds to drugs or pollutants somewhat differently.

Maybe you'd be well served to go back through recorded history and review not just longevity but also productivity, both physically and mentally in regard to known diets.

There's obviously something going on in your life that inspires you to continuously post this anti-meat, anti-fat diet crap on a regular basis......Has it occurred to you that addressing those issues might help you more in the long run than what you eat?

[AZJoe]

The Perfect Human Diet: http://www.hulu.com/watch/691639


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKp5SzMe-nI


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMUzhAnuOzU&list=PLCJ4e8VV4kQkL5LrQGhimoEO tLxZcrL8R

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/category/success-story-summaries/#axzz4ETstYkGe
http://www.marksdailyapple.com/#axzz4ETstYkGe

[donnay]

Yes, their bodies make it after eating plant foods. Same with humans. We technically don't need saturated fats from outside sources.

And they have four stomachs! We are not ruminants, but we can do well with fermenting plant-base things however, we need saturated fats to balance our diets. Our organs need good fat to function--the liver and brain more importantly.

In order for Vitamin D3 (Cholecalciferol: which is in all animal-based foods) to synthesize it needs cholesterol and binds well to protein receptors. Vitamin D2 (Ergosterol) is plant-based and cannot bind to proteins receptors well in the human body and basically useless. It has also been shown that Vitamin D2 leads to toxicity rather than D3.

References:
http://www.cholesterol-and-health.com/Vitamin-D.html
http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/#



Causes of Vitamin D Deficiency

Vitamin D deficiency can occur for a number of reasons:

You don't consume the recommended levels of the vitamin over time. This is likely if you follow a strict vegan diet, because most of the natural sources are animal-based, including fish and fish oils, egg yolks, fortified milk, and beef liver
http://www.webmd.com/diet/guide/vitamin-d-deficiency

Vitamin D Deficiency- An Ignored Epidemic
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3068797/

[tod evans]

Knowledge for the sake of understanding is a good thing, knowing why which food affects the body a certain way is good knowledge to have.............If you give a shit.

Thing is most people don't give a shit at least beyond filling their gut.

Advising the majority of the populace on diet doesn't involve dishonesty or slants, pro or con anything...

It really needs to be no more complex than to eat a varied diet using foodstuffs as close to the way Mother Nature grew them as humanly possible........

Unmodified vegetation including fruits and mold, meats from differing sources that haven't been subjected to mass-anything and of course plant and animal byproducts that are as close to the way they're made as possible...(Eggs, milk, butter, oils and fats)

[helmuth_hubener]

Glad to see that everyone still knows everything about exactly what the ideal and perfect human diet is. Very comforting. Carry on.

(Actually, mostly farreri. The rest of the posters in this thread have mostly taken a reasonably humble and moderate stance as to their omniscience, or lack thereof)

[farreri]

It's when you try to promote your dietary ideas as superior that I get rankled
Here's one of Donnay's posts that by the title of it seems to be promoting that her dietary ideas as superior. Please show me in her thread where you called her out for this so I don't think you're being a hypocrite:

"The Perfect Health Diet"
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?491976-The-Perfect-Health-Diet


and call you on your BS.
What BS? The stuff I post is back by longterm studies. Sorry if science is getting in your way.


you to continuously post this anti-meat, anti-fat diet crap on a regular basis
I've posted none of those as a recommendation for everyone to eat.

[farreri]

The Perfect Human Diet:
I've debunked that Paleo nonsense here:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?489785-The-Problem-With-the-Paleo-Diet-Argument

[tod evans]

Ho-hum..........

[farreri]

And they have four stomachs! We are not ruminants, but we can do well with fermenting plant-base things however, we need saturated fats to balance our diets. Our organs need good fat to function--the liver and brain more importantly.
So you're saying human bodies can't make saturated fat or cholesterol?


In order for Vitamin D3 (Cholecalciferol: which is in all animal-based foods) to synthesize it needs cholesterol and binds well to protein receptors.
So how do cows get Vitamin D? Oh, let me guess, "They have four stomachs!"

[farreri]

Glad to see that everyone still knows everything about exactly what the ideal and perfect human diet is. Very comforting. Carry on.

(Actually, mostly farreri. The rest of the posters in this thread have mostly taken a reasonably humble and moderate stance as to their omniscience, or lack thereof)
What do you think I think the perfect human diet is?

[helmuth_hubener]

What do you think I think the perfect human diet is?

I don't know! I'm just satisfied to know that you know. And that's good enough for me.

[donnay]

So you're saying human bodies can't make saturated fat or cholesterol?

You will never get the good stuff on a plant-base diet. I already explained that in my last post.



So how do cows get Vitamin D? Oh, let me guess, "They have four stomachs!"

From the sun soaking into their skin during the spring and summer months--just like humans. :)

References:
https://www.vitamindcouncil.org/blog/study-evaluates-seasonality-of-vitamin-d-levels-in-cattle/

http://www.msdiscovery.org/news/news_synthesis/10213-beyond-reasonable-doubt-vitamin-d-piece-ms-puzzle

[farreri]

Ho-hum..........
Did AZJoe's post rankle you like mine did? His post sounded like a pretty superior diet belief.

[farreri]

You will never get the good stuff on a plant-base diet. I already explained that in my last post.
You really didn't answer my question directly. I'll ask it a little differently, can the human body make all the saturated fat or cholesterol it needs without getting any saturated fat or cholesterol from outside sources?


From the sun soaking into their skin during the spring and summer months--just like humans. :)
Yes, so what's the problem?

[donnay]

Ho-hum..........

Another boring day on the Island of Pegi Pegi. :D

[farreri]

I don't know! I'm just satisfied to know that you know. And that's good enough for me.
If you don't know, then why did you say my stance wasn't humble as the others?

[tod evans]

Did AZJoe's post rankled you like mine did? His post sounded like a pretty superior diet belief.

Would you care to discuss politics?

I'm not interested in discussing you or your diet with you, I'm not interested in discussing other peoples diets with you either...

You can count on me to chime in with a bit of common sense every time I see you posting another anti-XXX thread.....;)

[donnay]

You really didn't answer my question directly. I'll ask it a little differently, can the human body make all the saturated fat or cholesterol it needs without getting any saturated fat or cholesterol from outside sources?


Yes, so what's the problem?

Saturated Fat Does a Body Good
http://www.westonaprice.org/know-your-fats/saturated-fat-body-good/


SYNTHESIZING OUR OWN SATURATED FAT
Since we can synthesize our own saturated fat from carbohydrate, we must ask whether we can synthesize enough for optimal health, and whether there is any reason to consider it preferable to directly consume saturated fat in the diet. Although to my knowledge there are no research studies that provide a clear and unambiguous answer to this question, one way to tackle the question indirectly is to look at how much saturated fat we do synthesize under various conditions, and compare those values to the maximum amount of saturated fat we are able to make.

The conversion of carbohydrate to fat is known as de novo lipogenesis (DNL). This pathway initially allows the synthesis of palmitate. Palmitate can then be converted to other saturated fats, to monounsaturated fats, and, to an extremely limited degree, polyunsaturated fats.

Under almost every condition measured, DNL is an extremely minor pathway in humans.7 On a Western diet, healthy men will synthesize one to two grams of fat per day, while healthy women will synthesize a similar amount in the luteal phase of their menstrual cycle and will synthesize three to six grams of fat per day in the follicular phase. In obesity, diabetes, infection and other inflammatory diseases, DNL reaches about three to six grams of fat per day. On a 70 percent carbohydrate 15 percent fat diet—similar to but slightly lower in fat than the Kitavan diet —DNL rises to ten grams per day. These values suggest that under most conditions the endogenous synthesis of fat is much smaller than the amount consumed in the diet. The maximum value occurs in a diet comprised of 70 percent carbohydrate 15 percent fat diet, where we could expect a typical person to consume about thirty grams of fat in the diet and synthesize ten grams of fat endogenously.

There is one condition under which DNL can become a major pathway in humans: when the total carbohydrate intake exceeds a person’s total energy expenditure, the capacity to convert the extra carbohydrate to fat is virtually unlimited, reaching at least five hundred grams per day.8 Although this condition has little if any practical relevance, it makes it clear that DNL is usually kept under ten grams per day, not because we lack the ability to synthesize more than that, but because under ordinary conditions our bodies “choose” not to do so.

It would seem, then, that DNL is usually such a minor pathway either because forty grams of total fat per day is more than enough to provide us with all of the specific fatty acids we require for structural roles, or because there is some cost associated with DNL that exceeds whatever benefit we would obtain by providing greater support to those structural roles.

The major cost associated with DNL is that it uses up energy carried by NADPH, which is a form of niacin (vitamin B3) that transfers energy from glucose to other systems. These systems include the anabolic processes by which we synthesize fats and cholesterol, but they also include antioxidant defense, detoxification and the recycling of nutrients such as folate and vitamin K. If the rate of DNL were to become excessive, it would tax the energy needed for antioxidant defense, detoxification, and nutrient recycling (see Figure 1).


http://www.westonaprice.org/wp-content/uploads/Spring2016-masterjohn-fig1.jpg
FIGURE 1. Excessive DNL Taxes Energy Needed for Other Critical Purposes De novo lipogenesis (fatty acid synthesis) requires energy input from NADPH. NADPH is a form of niacin (vitamin B3) that carries energy from glucose and brings it to systems engaged in anabolic (building things up) and reductive (adding electrons to other things) purposes. In practical terms, these include the synthesis of cholesterol, neurotransmitters, and nucleotides; antioxidant defense and detoxification; and the recycling of vitamin K and folate. Synthesizing excessive amounts of fat would be expected to compromise the supply of energy to these other systems and thereby compromise critical processes such as antioxidant defense, detoxification, and nutrient recycling.

It would seem likely that a diet where the total carbohydrate content exceeds the total energy expenditure would pose a serious risk of compromising these other processes. Such a diet is rare, however, and it is unclear whether we can obtain any health benefit by consuming a sufficient fat-to-carbohydrate ratio to bring the daily rate of DNL down from ten grams to one to six grams. Indeed, the traditional Kitavan diet would not be expected to maximally suppress DNL, yet Kitavans are remarkably healthy.

It seems unlikely, moreover, that we would require more than forty grams of fat per day to fulfill the structural roles of fatty acids, because the overwhelming reason that we eat food is to break the molecules down for energy. Each of us tends to consume our weight in food several times per month. Only a small portion of that food is used to provide or synthesize the molecules that make up our tissues. An additional portion is broken down for energy to fuel internal movements such as our heart beating and our lungs breathing, and to fuel the large movements that we think of as our physical activity. The vast majority of it, however, is broken down for energy to invest in the maintenance and repair of tissues and to release copious amounts of heat into our environment. We therefore turn to some of the benefits of specific saturated fatty acids in energy metabolism.

[specsaregood]

Would you care to discuss politics?

I'm not interested in discussing you or your diet with you, I'm not interested in discussing other peoples diets with you either...

You can count on me to chime in with a bit of common sense every time I see you posting another anti-XXX thread.....;)

His diet is his politics. He is an agent of the reptilians and wants us to all live like cows. That way, when they return to the planet, they can harvest our fat asses for market.

[dannno]

I've debunked that Paleo nonsense here:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?489785-The-Problem-With-the-Paleo-Diet-Argument

Ya but your debunking arguments don't ever make any sense.. like how you say the Inuit have poor health when the reason they have poor health is because they have lost their way, are on welfare and eat a lot of processed grains and sugar.

I posted a movie a while back that you probably never watched, but it would do you some good to watch it. It was called, "That Sugar Movie". They looked at an aborigines society that was poor and on welfare. The only place to shop in town had a lot of high processed grains and sugar foods, and they were all relatively very unhealthy. They were able to replace the food source in the area for a few years I think and they sold fresh fruits and vegetables and meat. They taught the people about diet and eating right and the health of the village improved immensely.

[helmuth_hubener]

If you don't know, then why did you say my stance wasn't humble as the others?
I don't know the details of your consumptive regimen, Farreri. I only know your attitude towards it. And towards everyone else. That is what I commented on.

[farreri]

Donnay, you skipped over my question again, so I'll ask it...again:

Can the human body make all the saturated fat or cholesterol it needs without getting any saturated fat or cholesterol from outside sources?

[farreri]

Would you care to discuss politics?

I'm not interested in discussing you or your diet with you, I'm not interested in discussing other peoples diets with you either...
We're not discussing diets, per se, We're discussing why you blast my posts about diets that you say have a tone of diet superiority to them, you don't so the same to other's posts that also have that same kind of ton of diet superiority to them. Why is that? Is it because you're a hypocrite?

[farreri]

His diet is his politics. He is an agent of the reptilians and wants us to all live like cows. That way, when they return to the planet, they can harvest our fat asses for market.
Cool story, bro.

[farreri]

Ya but your debunking arguments don't ever make any sense.. like how you say the Inuit have poor health when the reason they have poor health is because they have lost their way, are on welfare and eat a lot of processed grains and sugar.
Inuit fossilized remains showed they had high levels of atherosclerosis long before the western diet ever reached them.

[farreri]

I don't know the details of your consumptive regimen, Farreri. I only know your attitude towards it. And towards everyone else. That is what I commented on.
Do you comment the same way towards Donnay for her diet post that seems to take the same attitude like you think mine do?

[specsaregood]

Cool story, bro.

That ain't a denial, bro. or should I say, Mooooo.

[tod evans]

We're not discussing diets, per se, We're discussing why you blast my posts about diets that you say have a tone of diet superiority to them, you don't so the same to other's posts that also have that same kind of ton of diet superiority to them. Why is that? Is it because you're a hypocrite?

It's because I find you and your posting history and tone offensive,

Stick that in your vegetable pipe and suck on it..

[heavenlyboy34]

Inuit fossilized remains showed they had high levels of atherosclerosis long before the western diet ever reached them.

LOL :D

[donnay]

Donnay, you skipped over my question again, so I'll ask it...again:

Can the human body make all the saturated fat or cholesterol it needs without getting any saturated fat or cholesterol from outside sources?


We cannot for optimal health. We need good saturated fat for balance and optimal health. There is that better?

[helmuth_hubener]

Do you comment the same way towards Donnay for her diet post that seems to take the same attitude like you think mine do?Recrimination will solve everything!

Probably I have, farreri, funnily enough. I am not one to toe-the-Donnay-line on every issue. Nor anyone else's line. Unless I really like you. :p

[farreri]

It's because I find you and your posting history and tone offensive
Sorry that makes you butthurt.

[farreri]

We cannot for optimal health. We need good saturated fat for balance and optimal health. There is that better?
Sounds like you're still trying to skirt around the question. If I'm understanding you, you're saying humans can produce enough saturated fat and cholesterol, but the quality is not good enough for optimal health?

[farreri]

LOL :D
Why is that funny?

[donnay]

Sounds like you're still trying to skirt around the question. If I'm understanding you, you're saying humans can produce enough saturated fat and cholesterol, but the quality is not good enough for optimal health?

You're catching on.

[farreri]

You're catching on.
Do you have any scientific evidence the quality saturated fat and cholesterol made in the human body aren't as good quality as outside sources those fats, or is that your personal opinion?

[dannno]

You're catching on.

Our bodies produce about 75% of what we need, the other 25% comes from diet.

[donnay]

Do you have an scientific evidence the quality of human-made saturated fat and cholesterol aren't as good quality as outside sources those fats, or is that your personal opinion?

LOL! Go back to the two posts before so I don't have to answer your cockamamie questions over and over. Geez.

"...there are no research studies that provide a clear and unambiguous answer to this question, one way to tackle the question indirectly is to look at how much saturated fat we do synthesize under various conditions, and compare those values to the maximum amount of saturated fat we are able to make."

[farreri]

Our bodies produce about 75% of what we need, the other 25% comes from diet.
You have a legit source for that?

[donnay]

Our bodies produce about 75% of what we need, the other 25% comes from diet.


Yeah I get it, farreri doesn't.

[farreri]

"...there are no research studies that provide a clear and unambiguous answer to this question"
OK, thanks for that answer. Human bodies can produce all the saturated fat and cholesterol we need and there's no evidence outside sources of those fats are superior.

[donnay]

OK, thanks for that answer. Human bodies can produce all the saturated fat and cholesterol we need and there's no evidence outside sources of those fats are superior.

You have a legit source for that?

[Zippyjuan]

Our bodies produce about 75% of what we need, the other 25% comes from diet.

Sort of true. 75% of the cholesterol in you currently is produced by the body and the rest can come from diet but the body can also produce 100% of what it needs if the diet doesn't provide any. http://www.livestrong.com/article/28917-organ-produces-cholesterol/


The human body produces about 75 percent of the cholesterol in it at any given time. The liver is the largest internal organ in the body and is responsible for cholesterol production.

Definition
Cholesterol is a fat-like substance that has uses in nearly every cell in the body and is needed for the body to function properly. It is insoluble in blood, circulating through the blood after being encapsulated in a protein coating (the combination of cholesterol and protein coat is referred to as a chylomicron.)

Sources
The body utilizes two sources of cholesterol. One source is exogenous, or dietary cholesterol, found in fish, red meats, poultry and dairy products. Certain types of meats, such as organ meats (e.g. liver, brain) are extremely high in cholesterol. The vast majority of plant-based foods have no cholesterol in them.

The second source is endogenous, or created by the body. This process is a complex series of biochemical reactions that produces cholesterol necessary for the body to function.


http://www.diagnosisdiet.com/food/cholesterol/


How much cholesterol do we need to eat?

NONE.

Cholesterol is so important that the body can make cholesterol out of ANYTHING—fats, carbohydrates, or proteins. You don’t have to eat cholesterol to make cholesterol. Even if you eat a completely cholesterol-free diet, as vegans do, your body will still make cholesterol. Type “vegans with high cholesterol” into your search engine and you will find plenty of accounts of vegans whose cholesterol is too high—despite the fact that they eat ZERO grams of cholesterol.

[donnay]

Sort of true. 75% of the cholesterol in you currently is produced by the body and the rest can come from diet but the body can also produce 100% of what it needs if the diet doesn't provide any. http://www.livestrong.com/article/28917-organ-produces-cholesterol/

http://www.diagnosisdiet.com/food/cholesterol/


On any given day, we have between 1,100 and 1,700 milligrams of cholesterol in our body. 25% of that comes from our diet, and 75% is produced inside of our bodies by the liver. Much of the cholesterol that’s found in food can’t be absorbed by our bodies, and most of the cholesterol in our gut was first synthesized in body cells and ended up in the gut via the liver and gall bladder. The body tightly regulates the amount of cholesterol in the blood by controlling internal production; when cholesterol intake in the diet goes down, the body makes more. When cholesterol intake in the diet goes up, the body makes less.

This explains why well-designed cholesterol feeding studies (where they feed volunteers 2-4 eggs a day and measure their cholesterol) show that dietary cholesterol has very little impact on blood cholesterol levels in about 75% of the population. The remaining 25% of the population are referred to as “hyper-responders”. In this group, dietary cholesterol does modestly increase both LDL (“bad cholesterol” and HDL (“good cholesterol”), but it does not affect the ratio of LDL to HDL or increase the risk of heart disease. (2)

In other words, eating cholesterol isn’t going to give you a heart attack. You can ditch the egg-white omelettes and start eating yolks again. That’s a good thing, since all of the 13 essential nutrients eggs contain are found in the yolk. Egg yolks are an especially good source of choline, a B-vitamin that plays important roles in everything from neurotransmitter production to detoxification to maintenance of healthy cells. (3) Studies show that up to 90% of Americans don’t get enough choline, which can lead to fatigue, insomnia, poor kidney function, memory problems and nerve-muscle imbalances. (4)

What about saturated fat? It’s true that some studies show that saturated fat intake raises blood cholesterol levels. But these studies are almost always short-term, lasting only a few weeks. (5) Longer-term studies have not shown an association between saturated fat intake and blood cholesterol levels. In fact, of all of the long-term studies examining this issue, only one of them showed a clear association between saturated fat intake and cholesterol levels, and even that association was weak. (6)

Moreover, studies on low-carbohydrate diets (which tend to be high in saturated fat) suggest that they not only don’t raise blood cholesterol, they have several beneficial impacts on cardiovascular disease risk markers. For example, a meta-analysis of 17 low-carb diet trials covering 1,140 obese patients published in the journal Obesity Reviews found that low-carb diets neither increased nor decreased LDL cholesterol. However, they did find that low-carb diets were associated with significant decreases is body weight as well as improvements in several CV risk factors, including decreases in triglycerides, fasting glucose, blood pressure, body mass index, abdominal circumference, plasma insulin and c-reactive protein, as well as an increase in HDL cholesterol. (7)

If you’re wondering whether saturated fat may contribute to heart disease in some way that isn’t related to cholesterol, a large meta-analysis of prospective studies involving close to 350,000 participants found no association between saturated fat and heart disease. (8) A Japanese prospective study that followed 58,000 men for an average of 14 years found no association between saturated fat intake and heart disease, and an inverse association between saturated fat and stroke (i.e. those who ate more saturated fat had a lower risk of stroke). (9)

That said, just as not everyone responds to dietary cholesterol in the same manner, there’s some variation in how individuals respond to dietary saturated fat. If we took ten people, fed them a diet high in saturated fat, and measured their cholesterol levels, we’d see a range of responses that averages out to no net increase or decrease. (If dietary saturated fat does increase your total or LDL cholesterol, the more important question is whether that’s a problem. I’ll address that in the next article in this series.)

Another strike against the diet-heart hypothesis is that many of its original proponents haven’t believed it for at least two decades. In a letter to the New England Journal of Medicine in 1991, Ancel Keys, the founder of the diet-heart hypothesis said (10):

Dietary cholesterol has an important effect on the cholesterol level in the blood of chickens and rabbits, but many controlled experiments have shown that dietary cholesterol has a limited effect in humans. Adding cholesterol to a cholesterol-free diet raises the blood level in humans, but when added to an unrestricted diet, it has a minimal effect.

In a 2004 editorial in the Journal of American College of Cardiology, Sylvan Lee Weinberg, former president of the American College of Cardiology and outspoken proponent of the diet-heart hypothesis, said (11):

The low-fat, high-carbohydrate diet… may well have played an unintended role in the current epidemics of obesity, lipid abnormalities, type 2 diabetes, and metabolic syndromes. This diet can no longer be defended by appeal to the authority of prestigious medical organizations.

We’ve now established that eating cholesterol and saturated fat does not increase cholesterol levels in the blood for most people. In the next article, I’ll debunk the myth that high cholesterol in the blood is the cause of heart disease.
http://chriskresser.com/the-diet-heart-myth-cholesterol-and-saturated-fat-are-not-the-enemy/

[farreri]

http://chriskresser.com/the-diet-heart-myth-cholesterol-and-saturated-fat-are-not-the-enemy/
Chris Kresser doesn't seem too confident in his diet recommendations from all the shit ton of supplement he sells on his website:

http://store.chriskresser.com/collections

Ever hear of the term snake oil salesman?

[lilymc]

Even the Bible gives specifics of the meats that were clean to eat.

Yes, but God's original, ideal diet for mankind (in the Garden of Eden) was fruits and vegetables.... it was after sin entered the world when meat-eating began. Meat eating (and the violence that goes with it) is reflective of a fallen world.

And in the end, when harmony on earth is restored, we will go back to a non-violent, non-meat eating world.


Isaiah 11:6-9

The wolf shall dwell with the lamb,
and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat,
and the calf and the lion and the fattened calf together;
and a little child shall lead them.
The cow and the bear shall graze;
their young shall lie down together;
and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
The nursing child shall play over the hole of the cobra,
and the weaned child shall put his hand on the adder's den.
They shall not hurt or destroy
in all my holy mountain;
for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord
as the waters cover the sea.



This video is worth watching:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eAhKIwaj70

[AZJoe]

I've debunked that Paleo nonsensehere:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?489785-The-Problem-With-the-Paleo-Diet-Argument (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?489785-The-Problem-With-the-Paleo-Diet-Argument)

Oh of course. Well in that case, all of that ferrari nonsense has already been debunked here: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/
And here: http://thepaleodiet.com/
And here: http://paleoleap.com/
And here: http://ultimatepaleoguide.com/
And here: http://paleodiet.com/

[donnay]

Yes, but God's original, ideal diet for mankind (in the Garden of Eden) was fruits and vegetables.... it was after sin entered the world when meat-eating began. Meat eating (and the violence that goes with it) is reflective of a fallen world.

And in the end, when harmony on earth is restored, we will go back to a non-violent, non-meat eating world.


Isaiah 11:6-9

The wolf shall dwell with the lamb,
and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat,
and the calf and the lion and the fattened calf together;
and a little child shall lead them.
The cow and the bear shall graze;
their young shall lie down together;
and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
The nursing child shall play over the hole of the cobra,
and the weaned child shall put his hand on the adder's den.
They shall not hurt or destroy
in all my holy mountain;
for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord
as the waters cover the sea.



This video is worth watching:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eAhKIwaj70

That's because there will be no more flesh in Heaven, all flesh will be transformed into spiritual bodies. If you also remember when God made Adam, He made him in His own image. If we go to Leviticus 11, He specifically points out the clean foods to eat. It is safe to say that God made the flesh and God knew what was good for our health.

[donnay]

Chris Kresser doesn't seem too confident in his diet recommendations from all the $#@! ton of supplement he sells on his website:

http://store.chriskresser.com/collections

Ever hear of the term snake oil salesman?

We have already gone through this before...you do not have to buy his products, but his article is backed up by studies.

[lilymc]

That's because there will be no more flesh in Heaven, all flesh will be transformed into spiritual bodies. If you also remember when God made Adam, He made him in His own image. If we go to Leviticus 11, He specifically points out the clean foods to eat. It is safe to say that God made the flesh and God knew what was good for our health.

I have to go do something right now, but I'll be back later to reply to this.

[donnay]

I have to go do something right now, but I'll be back later to reply to this.

Okie dokie.

[farreri]

We have already gone through this before...you do not have to buy his products, but his article is backed up by studies.
And my last two threads showed how at least some of these studies have been purposely designed to have favorable outcomes by the meat and egg industries who funded them.

Can't you see that these frauds, like Chris Kresser, want you to keep eating an unhealthy diet so they can keep you coming back to buy their unproven supplements?

Go look at all the sites promoting a true low fat diet and notice that hardly any of them are selling supplements. That should tell you something.

[farreri]

Oh of course. Well in that case, all of that ferrari nonsense has already been debunked here: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/
And here: http://thepaleodiet.com/
And here: http://paleoleap.com/
And here: http://ultimatepaleoguide.com/
And here: http://paleodiet.com/
The scientifically backed studies in my thread debunks the theory and flawed studies in biased sites like those.

The entire Paleo argument was based on previously flawed studies which seem to indicate that mostly animal residue was found in the teeth of humans in the Paleo are, but better technology later showed that plant residue was found in their teeth also, debunking that they mostly eat meat.

[donnay]

And my last two threads showed how at least some of these studies have been purposely designed to have favorable outcomes by the meat and egg industries who funded them.

Can't you see that these frauds, like Chris Kresser, want you to keep eating an unhealthy diet so they can keep you coming back to buy their unproven supplements?

Go look at all the sites promoting a true low fat diet and notice that hardly any of them are selling supplements. That should tell you something.

The sites promoting a true low fat diets have connections as well.

The bottom line is, if you eat clean food, drink clean water and keep chemicals and pesticides away from you externally and internally, you're less likely to make trips to a allopathic doctor.

The fact of the matter is that some supplementation is needed. Our soils have been depleted of the vital nutrients we need, and even organically grown food cannot make up for a lot of the deficiencies many people have due to the nutrients being stripped from the soil.

[heavenlyboy34]

The entire Paleo argument was based on previously flawed studies which seem to indicate that mostly animal residue was found in the teeth of humans in the Paleo are, but better technology later showed that plant residue was found in their teeth also, debunking that they mostly eat meat.

Somebody's mouthing off without actually reading the links again. :D Surprise, surprise. :rolleyes:

[lilymc]

That's because there will be no more flesh in Heaven, all flesh will be transformed into spiritual bodies.

It sounds like you have a different interpretation, but to me it seems clear that it's about Christ's reign on earth. Also, I've been doing some reading up on it, and pretty much every bible commentary and teaching that I've seen on that passage says that it's about Jesus' millennial reign on earth. Which as you know is different than heaven.


Chuck Smith: (https://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/smith_chuck/c2000_Isa/Isa_011.cfm?a=690006)


Now the conditions that will exist when He reigns upon the earth:

The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them (Isa 11:6).

We see not the world that God created. We see a world that is suffering the curse because of man's sin. And the curse has spread out into the animal kingdom. It's spread out into the areas, the whole area of the earth. The earth is cursed. "Thorns and thistles shall the ground produce" (Genesis 3:18). The animals at war with each other. That's why nature does not give us a true picture of God. It can declare to us His glory, His power, His majesty, His might, but it doesn't declare His love, because the earth is in rebellion against God. But when Jesus establishes His kingdom, even the animal kingdom will be at peace.



David Guzik: (https://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/guzik_david/StudyGuide_Isa/Isa_11.cfm?a=690006)


The wolf also dwell with the lamb: When the Messiah reigns, nature will be transformed. No longer will there be predators among the animals, and seemingly all animals will be only herbivores (the cow and the bear shall graze … the lion shall eat straw like the ox).

i. Romans 8:19-22 says: The earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. Nature is waiting for the transformation that will come when the Messiah reigns and believers are glorified.

For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea: The knowledge of the LORD - in a relational sense, not merely an intellectual sense - will cover the entire earth. The Millennial reign of the Messiah will be glorious!



John F. Walvoord: (https://bible.org/seriespage/15-second-coming-christ-and-millennial-kingdom)


Another major passage dealing with Christ in His second coming is found in Isaiah 11, where the righteous reign of Christ and the blessings of the millennial kingdom are revealed.


The evidence in support of the concept that Christ will reign on earth is so abundant that only by wholesale spiritualization can these passages be construed to mean anything other than their ordinary meaning. The characteristics of the reign of Christ are plainly set forth in many passages, such as Isaiah 11, and the New Testament confirms the literal interpretation.


F.E. Marsh: (https://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/marsh_fe/bible_readings/075.cfm?a=690006)


Now, as Christ has actually and literally suffered and died, so He will as actually and as surely reign in glory, and on the earth where He was rejected and where He suffered.

Rest-giving King (Isa 11:6-8). The whole creation, which now groaneth and travaileth in pain, is to be delivered into the glorious liberty of the children of God (Romans 8:21-22). The animal creation is to share in the peace of the peaceful reign of Christ (Isa 65:25).


and many more.



If you also remember when God made Adam, He made him in His own image. If we go to Leviticus 11, He specifically points out the clean foods to eat. It is safe to say that God made the flesh and God knew what was good for our health.

Shouldn't God's original design for mankind be a more important thing to aim for than what God later permitted (under very specific limits), for a period of time?

In the Garden of Eden, this is what God originally said:



9 And God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food. 30 And to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the heavens and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food.” And it was so.

There's more to be said about this, but I'll stop here for now. If you have time, you should watch that video a couple posts up that I posted... it's pretty thorough.

[farreri]

The sites promoting a true low fat diets have connections as well.
What connections are those?


The bottom line is, if you eat clean food
What's a clean food?


you're less likely to make trips to a allopathic doctor.
What diet were you on that made you have to take trips to a holistic doctor?


The fact of the matter is that some supplementation is needed.
I agree, some supplementation is needed. High-fat diet gurus, like Chris Kresser, are pushing a lot more than just some supplementation. Why is that? If your diet is healthy, you'll hardly need any supplements at all.

[donnay]

It sounds like you have a different interpretation, but to me it seems clear that it's about Christ's reign on earth. Also, I've been doing some reading up on it, and pretty much every bible commentary and teaching that I've seen on that passage says that it's about Jesus' millennial reign on earth. Which as you know is different than heaven.

Yes, it is during the millennial and during that time we all will be spiritual--The Lord's Day. (ETA: 2 Peter 3:8 - But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. ) However following that we will enter the third earth age, God will make his place back to his favorite place on earth which is Jerusalem. Which means heaven will be on earth and we will all be in spiritual bodies--no more flesh.


Revelation 21King James Version (KJV)

21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.


Shouldn't God's original design for mankind be a more important thing to aim for than what God later permitted (under very specific limits), for a period of time?

In the Garden of Eden, this is what God originally said:


9 And God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food. 30 And to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the heavens and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food.” And it was so.

There's more to be said about this, but I'll stop here for now. If you have time, you should watch that video a couple posts up that I posted... it's pretty thorough.

Regardless, God put these creatures on the earth for a reason. If you remember Adam's son Abel was a Shepard for a flock of sheep. Leviticus 11 is pretty clear. Jesus also showed men how to fish.

Genesis 4:2
And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

Matthew 4:19
And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.

[donnay]

What connections are those?

If you need to be told, then you're much more ignorant than I thought.



What's a clean food?

Again, if you need to be told you're much more ignorant than I thought.



What diet were you on that made you have to take trips to a holistic doctor?

Your ignorance is shinning through on this question. It deserves an :rolleyes:



I agree, some supplementation is needed. High-fat diet gurus, like Chris Kresser, are pushing a lot more than just some supplementation. Why is that? If your diet is healthy, you'll hardly need any supplements at all.

For a second there I thought you had finally did some research...and then as your sentence went on your ignorance became much more abundantly clear to me.

[Natural Citizen]

Matthew 4:19
And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.

Ha. That's one of the songs I remember from Sunday School when I was like 6. I will make you fishers of men...fishers of men...fishers of men...I will make you fishers of men if you fooollooooowww meeeee.

Dang. Now that's going to be stuck in my head all night. I just know it.

Anyway. I like this discussion you and lily are having. It'll be interesting to see what you two come up with.

[Natural Citizen]

It sounds like you have a different interpretation, but to me it seems clear that it's about Christ's reign on earth. Also, I've been doing some reading up on it, and pretty much every bible commentary and teaching that I've seen on that passage says that it's about Jesus' millennial reign on earth. Which as you know is different than heaven.




As I was saying to donnay, I'd be interested to see if you two come to an agreement on this. It actually got me interested so I might do some reading on it myself.

[lilymc]

Yes, it is during the millennial and during that time we all will be spiritual--The Lord's Day. (ETA: 2 Peter 3:8 - But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. ) However following that we will enter the third earth age, God will make his place back to his favorite place on earth which is Jerusalem. Which means heaven will be on earth and we will all be in spiritual bodies--no more flesh.


Revelation 21King James Version (KJV)

21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

I was talking about Christ’s millennial reign on earth, not what is beyond that.

So you believe, based on that 2 Peter scripture that the millennial reign will be one day? The topic of the millennial reign is very interesting to me, and there's isn't a ton of info out there about it... so it's something I want to do an in-depth study on, and pray about. But just by reading all the passages on it, I think it will be an actual millennium, not a figurative one.



Regardless, God put these creatures on the earth for a reason. If you remember Adam's son Abel was a Shepard for a flock of sheep. Leviticus 11 is pretty clear. Jesus also showed men how to fish.

Genesis 4:2
And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

Matthew 4:19
And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.

I think that God’s original design and restored harmony later should be enough as far as determining why He created animals. For companionship, for us to take care of them and partner with them, and also we can learn from them.

Speaking of learning from animals, I did a blog post on that a couple years ago...if anyone wants to check it out (http://www.ashestobeauty.net/animals-that-teach-us-important-spiritual-lessons/).

[farreri]

If you need to be told, then you're much more ignorant than I thought.
Again, if you need to be told you're much more ignorant than I thought.
Your ignorance is shinning through on this question. It deserves an :rolleyes:
For a second there I thought you had finally did some research...and then as your sentence went on your ignorance became much more abundantly clear to me.
You obviously were just making up a bunch of BS and don't know what you're even talking about or you would have actually responded with substance and not the same insult over and over again. Is that how Christians act?

Go back to my first question. What connections to the low-fat diet sites have that you claim they have? Back up your claim. Jesus would.

[donnay]

I was talking about Christ’s millennial reign on earth, not what is beyond that.

So you believe, based on that 2 Peter scripture that the millennial reign will be one day? The topic of the millennial reign is very interesting to me, and there's isn't a ton of info out there about it... so it's something I want to do an in-depth study on, and pray about. But just by reading all the passages on it, I think it will be an actual millennium, not a figurative one.

Yes, I believe the Millennial will be one day in the spiritual body for Jesus and his elect to teach the word of God to those who have never heard it or the ones who God placed in slumber so they can have a chance to know. Satan will be put in the abyss for this short period and he cannot influence anyone. Then he will let loose for this short period and people will have a chance to choose God or Satan.




I think that God’s original design and restored harmony later should be enough as far as determining why He created animals. For companionship, for us to take care of them and partner with them, and also we can learn from them.

God's original design will be restored after Satan is taken down. He created animals for his pleasure, he loves his animals. However, what happens to a lot of people who own wild animals? Would you like to be in a room with a lion? Do you think you could have companionship with a wild animal?

Genesis 1:28 New King James Version

Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”


Speaking of learning from animals, I did a blog post on that a couple years ago...if anyone wants to check it out.

The locusts have no king, Yet all of them go out in ranks.
Proverbs 30:27

The locusts in the above scripture speaks of the locust army not the insect.

This is the verse speaking about the insect, Locust:

Leviticus 11:22 - [Even] these of them ye may eat; the locust after his kind, and the bald locust after his kind, and the beetle after his kind, and the grasshopper after his kind.

[farreri]

So no one else is bothered that Big Meat skewed their food studies by substituting their known bad product (saturated fat) with another known bad product (high Omega-6 vegetable oil) to produce an outcome that makes it look like it was something other than saturated fat that's causing harm to people when they knew if they left saturated fat in the study it would have also shown it was causing harm to humans? Everyone is cool with what they did?

[donnay]

You obviously were just making up a bunch of BS and don't know what you're even talking about or you would have actually responded with substance and not the same insult over and over again. Is that how Christians act?

Go back to my first question. What connections to the low-fat diet sites have that you claim they have? Back up your claim. Jesus would.

I have answered you many times with regards to this so I post another article that points it out quite succinctly.

6 Reasons I do Not Trust Mainstream Health Organizations
http://www.ashestobeauty.net/animals-that-teach-us-important-spiritual-lessons/

[farreri]

I have answered you many times with regards to this so I post another article that points it out quite succinctly.

6 Reasons I do Not Trust Mainstream Health Organizations
You link to an article by low-carb guru, Kris Gunnars of the impressive-sounding "Authority Nutrition" website. He's another one of the new crop of low-carb diet gurus who uses a lot of impressive, but misleading tactics to sway people as I'll show.

In his first reason of that article, he brings up the conflict of interest of junk food companies sponsoring the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics. Well I AGREE with him on this! But he tries to make it out that this organization is responsible for the push of low-fat diets, but in his own pic of "Most Loyal Corporate Sponsors" in that article, one of the corporate sponsors is the NATIONAL DAIRY COUNSEL! And what he doesn't tell you is that the junk food those companies produce are loaded with FAT!

This is the kinds of misleading tactics he does. Here's a good write-up about Kris and his style approach:


Kris Gunnars, a medical student at the University of Iceland.

First, despite the bold title of his blog, Gunnars is no authority on nutrition. His background is the usual one of the self-proclaimed expert: “I got interested in my own health and started reading books and studies on nutrition.”

The result is that his blog is an interesting mix. There is some good advice and thoughtful observation, but also many overstatements of the evidence as well as some overt misinformation.

But he is certainly popular and it’s not hard to see why. He writes with great confidence and he challenges the nutrition status quo. He cites studies, which gives his blog an impression of legitimacy. There is a certain appeal to “authorities” who tell you exactly what to eat and what not to eat, and why everybody else is wrong. If you’re a Paleo dieter who likes this sort of thing, you’ll love Kris.

Gunnars promotes low-carb diets

http://www.theveganrd.com/2014/04/paleo-advocates-get-vegan-diets-and-saturated-fat-wrong-2.html

Being that he's from Iceland, a country who historically ate a high-fish and fat diet, you have to right away question if that makes him biased against low fat diets.

As the article that I posted mentions, Kris writes with "many overstatements of the evidence as well as some overt misinformation". To highlight this, a PhD student and low fat diet youtuber has meticulously gone through a lot of Kris Gunnars' articles and shows how frequently Kris does this which even got her banned from one of Kris' websites for challenging him on the evidence:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QC3YuM4i3Q

Kris Gunnars of Authority Nutrition wrote an article that contains a lot of errors, which I point out in this series about meat consumption and its impact on disease, particularly the top killers in the Western World. He seems to be telling people what they want to hear, rather than the truth about meat. I encourage you to look at the references he uses to make his points. You'll see that they cannot prove the points that he makes.

Gunnar's website, Authority Nutrition, is full of misleading information. The Authority Nutrition website also promotes a diet that is high in animal source foods, saying that there is no evidence that it is harmful. Actually, there is plenty of evidence that it is harmful. It's irresponsible for Gunnars to be telling people otherwise, as many people go to his website thinking that they are getting answers for their health.

Here's a list of all her videos were she debunks Kris Gunnars' claims:

Authority Nutrition Smack Down Series
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL-CeEXSl0Vm20Skh_b3yRoXfFMoObFiPr

Another thing about Kris' low-carb site is something all the low-carb sites need to do because low-carb diets are terrible for energy conversion in that they have to push the use of stimulants like coffee:

https://authoritynutrition.com/search/?q=coffee

If the diet you promoted was actually healthy, you wouldn't need stimulants like coffee to help you get through your day. ;)

[donnay]

If the diet you promoted was actually healthy, you wouldn't need stimulants like coffee to help you get through your day. ;)

I don't need coffee to start my day. I drink Nettles, Burdock root, Dandelion root and Clover in my press pot to start my day. So I will eat things that make me feel great and you do the same. ;)

I am eatting and egg salad on sour dough bread for lunch. Mmm Mmm good.

[farreri]

I don't need coffee to start my day. I drink Nettles, Burdock root, Dandelion root and Clover in my press pot to start my day. So I will eat things that make me feel great and you do the same. ;)

I am eatting and egg salad on sour dough bread for lunch. Mmm Mmm good.
You can eat whatever you want, I'm not the food police. I'm just letting people know who want to be healthy what foods are actually healthy, or not.

What do you usually eat for breakfast, if I may ask?

[donnay]

You can eat whatever you want, I'm not the food police. I'm just letting people know who want to be healthy what foods are actually healthy, or not.

What do you usually eat for breakfast, if I may ask?

Nothing. I usually don't eat any breakfast. I fast from 8 pm the night before for 15 hours.

[farreri]

Nothing. I usually don't eat any breakfast. I fast from 8 pm the night before for 15 hours.
I assumed you didn't eat breakfast. Why did I? Because in order to not get fat on the high fat diet, like the one's you promote, you have to starve yourself, or you'll gain weight. If you're wondering why you have so many thyroid and hormone issues, it's because you're starving yourself. All those questionable remedies you start threads will only mask your symptoms at best if you keep starving yourself. There's a reason fat is called fat.

[heavenlyboy34]

What connections are those?


Among others, Big Agra (grain is epic profit, if you can dupe people into believing it's healthy) and the FDA (the food pyramid was of course sponsored by Big Agra who needed ways to sell more grain because it wasn't selling well when the pyramid was created) and Big Pharma (which makes mega-bucks fixing diseases caused by the Food Pyramid, such as diabetes, heart disease, and obesity).

[donnay]

I assumed you didn't eat breakfast. Why did I? Because in order to not get fat on the high fat diet, like the one's you promote, you have to starve yourself, or you'll gain weight. If you're wondering why you have so many thyroid and hormone issues, it's because you're starving yourself. All those questionable remedies you start threads will only mask your symptoms at best if you keep starving yourself. There's a reason fat is called fat.

LOL!

[farreri]

Among others, Big Agra (grain is epic profit, if you can dupe people into believing it's healthy) and the FDA (the food pyramid was of course sponsored by Big Agra who needed ways to sell more grain because it wasn't selling well when the pyramid was created) and Big Pharma (which makes mega-bucks fixing diseases caused by the Food Pyramid, such as diabetes, heart disease, and obesity).
You're in for a shock:


Food lobbies, the food pyramid, and U.S. nutrition policy.

The U.S. Department of Agriculture's 1991 withdrawal of its Eating Right Pyramid food guide in response to pressure from meat and dairy producers was only the latest in a long series of industry attempts to influence federal dietary recommendations. Such attempts began when diet-related health problems in the United States shifted in prevalence from nutrient deficiencies to chronic diseases, and dietary advice shifted from "eat more" to "eat less." The Pyramid controversy focuses attention on the conflict between federal protection of the rights of food lobbyists to act in their own self-interest, and federal responsibility to promote the nutritional health of the public. Since 1977, for example, under pressure from meat producers, federal dietary advice has evolved from "decrease consumption of meat" to "have two or three (daily) servings." Thus, this recent incident also highlights the inherent conflict of interest in the Department of Agriculture's dual mandates to promote U.S. agricultural products and to advise the public about healthy food choices.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8375951



In December 1999, the PCRM filed suit against the USDA, claiming the department unfairly promotes the special interests of the meat and dairy industries through its official dietary guidelines and the Food Pyramid. Six of the eleven members assigned to the U.S. Dietary Guidelines Advisory Committee were demonstrated to have financial ties to meat, dairy, and egg interests. Prior to the suit, which the PCRM won in December 2000, the USDA had refused to disclose such conflicts of interest to the general public.

The USDA's advisory committees have been dominated by the agriculture industry since the early 1950s, when the department devised the Four Food Groups, including milk, meat, fruits and vegetables, and breads and cereals. Over the years, these dietary guidelines have consistently reflected the industry's push for greater consumption of both meat and dairy, despite the testimony of numerous physicians' groups and watchdog organizations criticizing the Food Pyramid as biased and unhealthful.

http://www.alternet.org/story/13557/not_milk%3A__the_usda%2C_monsanto%2C_and_the_u.s._ dairy_industry/

[farreri]

LOL!
Starving yourself isn't funny.

Why do you think so many women have thyroid problems? Iodine deficiency? Now that's a LOL.

[lilymc]

Yes, I believe the Millennial will be one day in the spiritual body for Jesus and his elect to teach the word of God to those who have never heard it or the ones who God placed in slumber so they can have a chance to know. Satan will be put in the abyss for this short period and he cannot influence anyone. Then he will let loose for this short period and people will have a chance to choose God or Satan.

Thanks for explaining your view. As I said, I take it more at face value, but obviously there are a number of interpretations, not only of the millennium but on the last days in general.


God's original design will be restored after Satan is taken down. He created animals for his pleasure, he loves his animals. However, what happens to a lot of people who own wild animals? Would you like to be in a room with a lion? Do you think you could have companionship with a wild animal

But you’re going by the current state of this world, which is fallen, and we were talking about God’s original design, original purpose. In the very beginning, there was peace and harmony. And when Christ returns, as my current signature says (the Isaiah 11 scripture), there will be peace again and many of the curses will be lifted. So I do not believe that God's original reason for putting animals on this earth was for us to kill and eat... (the scriptures about our original diet disprove that) and they certainly weren't put here for us to abuse or torture, as we're doing today, in factory farms.


Genesis 1:28 New King James Version

Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

I'm going to let this guy reply to that argument. I just want to be clear though. Although I agree with his thoughts on dominion, I don't necessarily agree with everything he says, especially in the last part of the video. He is very direct, which I'm sure will anger some people here.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eH9F98buy90




The locusts have no king, Yet all of them go out in ranks.
Proverbs 30:27

The locusts in the above scripture speaks of the locust army not the insect.

The mystical locust army spoken about in Revelation? That army has a king (Rev 9:11), and that Proverbs scripture says “The locusts have no king” - so I think it’s talking about regular locusts.

However, the more important point (in my view) is about the wisdom of banding together in cooperation… one locust by itself cannot do much, but an army of locusts can be devastating. That was the point I was making in the blog.

[donnay]

But you’re going by the current state of this world, which is fallen, and we were talking about God’s original design, original purpose. In the very beginning, there was peace and harmony. And when Christ returns, as my current signature says (the Isaiah 11 scripture), there will be peace again and many of the curses will be lifted. So I do not believe that God's original reason for putting animals on this earth was for us to kill and eat... (the scriptures about our original diet disprove that) and they certainly weren't put here for us to abuse or torture, as we're doing today, in factory farms.

I am not condoning in any way, shape, or form what factory farms do. It is a disgrace and a sin what they do to the animals.

[lilymc]

I am not condoning in any way, shape, or form what factory farms do. It is a disgrace and a sin what they do to the animals.

I know you don't, I just meant mankind in general. I probably didn't need to include that part, but just in case anyone out there reading thinks it's ok, I think sometimes it needs to be said.

[Natural Citizen]

Hey, good debate, you two. Plus reps all around.

[donnay]

But you’re going by the current state of this world, which is fallen, and we were talking about God’s original design, original purpose. In the very beginning, there was peace and harmony. And when Christ returns, as my current signature says (the Isaiah 11 scripture), there will be peace again and many of the curses will be lifted. So I do not believe that God's original reason for putting animals on this earth was for us to kill and eat... (the scriptures about our original diet disprove that) and they certainly weren't put here for us to abuse or torture, as we're doing today, in factory farms.

Lily, I want to point out a couple more things-- there will never be peace so long as we are all in the flesh. At the seventh trump, seventh vial and seventh seal when Christ returns, we will all be in spiritual bodies. So long as there is flesh there will be no peace and harmony. At the 6th trump, six vial, and six seal the Antichrist will deceive everyone into thinking he is Jesus Christ and offer peace and prosperity. The way we will know is if we can pinch ourselves and feel it we are still in the flesh. ;)

In the time of Moses burnt offerings signified the complete dedication of the offerers unto God.

Numbers 15:24 KJV
Then it shall be, if ought be committed by ignorance without the knowledge of the congregation, that all the congregation shall offer one young bullock for a burnt offering, for a sweet savour unto the LORD, with his meat offering, and his drink offering, according to the manner, and one kid of the goats for a sin offering.

After Jesus sacrificed his life, God no longer wanted the burnt offerings.

Hosea 6:6
For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

[donnay]

Starving yourself isn't funny.

Why do you think so many women have thyroid problems? Iodine deficiency? Now that's a LOL.

No, I think you're funny. Do you have any idea the nutrients that are in the herbal tea I spoke of in the above post? You do not have to always eat something to get the nutrients you need daily.

[tod evans]

You can eat whatever you want, I'm not the food police. I'm just letting people know who want to be healthy what foods are actually healthy, or not.

What do you usually eat for breakfast, if I may ask?


Well this is a bunch of bullshit.

What you actually do is promote a diet you approve of and then post studies and opinions from 'experts' who bolster your opinions.

Worse yet you do so in the most obnoxious and condescending manner of anyone I've seen grace these boards..

My mental picture is of a twig-boy spouting opinions in a hoity-toity East Coast accent replete with a nasal twang of superiority, possibly a fake British accent.

I had a sammich for my breakfast, egg-n-bacon topped with cheddar and tomato on store-bought wheat bread and a pot of stand your spoon up coffee, now I'm off to schlep boards in the shop.

Enjoy your smoothie or salad, maybe some yoga and meditation before entering the 'world' for chakra cleansing or some such..:rolleyes: