East Coast states want to tax drivers’ travel, not their gas

[donnay]

East Coast states want to tax drivers’ travel, not their gas

By Michael Laris
June 25

A group of East Coast states wants to help overhaul the way America pays for its decaying roads, and it’s starting with Monopoly money.

Delaware, Pennsylvania, Connecticut and New Hampshire are proposing pilots to figure out how they might charge motorists a fee for the miles they travel — rather than taxing their gas, as state and federal officials do today.

The I-95 Corridor Coalition, which represents transportation officials from 16 states and the District of Columbia, applied for a federal grant last month to test the idea.

Officials would stitch together the policies and technologies needed to count the miles driven by 50 recruits from each of the four states, including state legislators, transportation officials or other willing guinea pigs. They would send out “faux invoices” monthly. And they would collect the data that legislatures — and the driving public — would require to decide if the change makes sense.

Read more: https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/east-coast-states-want-to-tax-drivers-travel-not-their-gas/2016/06/25/9d4d1488-395c-11e6-8f7c-d4c723a2becb_story.html

[Anti Federalist]

Yup, only a matter of time...count on the gas tax not going away.

Just another way to track you.

[donnay]

^^^Some of us have been saying this for years. Especially now that these states have EZ-PASS. :mad:

[TheCount]

It's because they aren't getting as much taxes due to improving gas mileages, electric cars, etc.

In a way it's better because it's an actual usage fee, which I feel is vastly better than other forms of taxes... however, the bad/scary parts are how they're going to do the measuring, and as mentioned if the gas tax will actually go away or if they'll double dip.

[mrsat_98]

It's because they aren't getting as much taxes due to improving gas mileages, electric cars, etc.

In a way it's better because it's an actual usage fee, which I feel is vastly better than other forms of taxes... however, the bad/scary parts are how they're going to do the measuring, and as mentioned if the gas tax will actually go away or if they'll double dip.

So are you in favor of taxing our right to use the roads ?

[TheCount]

So are you in favor of taxing our right to use the roads ?

First, I don't think that roads or road usage are a right.

If roads are provided by government at whatever level (local/state/federal), then they must be paid for. The fairest way to do this is by usage, not by something like a gas tax, because if you tax gas, then people are paying for usage of the roads, even if the gas will not be used to drive on roads. Right now, if you buy gas for your generator, that money is (supposedly) pay for road maintenance and improvement.

[Anti Federalist]

It's because they aren't getting as much taxes due to improving gas mileages, electric cars, etc.

In a way it's better because it's an actual usage fee, which I feel is vastly better than other forms of taxes... however, the bad/scary parts are how they're going to do the measuring, and as mentioned if the gas tax will actually go away or if they'll double dip.

So if I drive a 10,000 pound dually and you drive a Prius, we should get taxed the same?

Or are you going to suggest some sort of sliding scale?

If that's the case, why change anything?

The gas tax already self adjusts for that.

This is just a way in which to get Big Brother in your car everywhere you go, nothing more, and there is no upside to it.

[Anti Federalist]

First, I don't think that roads or road usage are a right.

If roads are provided by government at whatever level (local/state/federal), then they must be paid for. The fairest way to do this is by usage, not by something like a gas tax, because if you tax gas, then people are paying for usage of the roads, even if the gas will not be used to drive on roads. Right now, if you buy gas for your generator, that money is (supposedly) pay for road maintenance and improvement.

How did you get to the gas station to fill your generator tanks?

[TheCount]

So if I drive a 10,000 pound dually and you drive a Prius, we should get taxed the same?

Or are you going to suggest some sort of sliding scale?

By weight would be ideal.



If that's the case, why change anything?

The gas tax already self adjusts for that.

The gas tax will not adjust to changes in average fuel economy, or to electric vehicles.



This is just a way in which to get Big Brother in your car everywhere you go, nothing more, and there is no upside to it.

There are ways which do not involve vehicle tracking.

I don't find the gas tax to be so awful that it needs to be replaced immediately, but at some point a new method will be needed to pay for roads, and as I said, I find usage taxes to be the least offensive method.



How did you get to the gas station to fill your generator tanks?

In another vehicle which also burns gas, which means that I already paid the tax for that.

[mrsat_98]

First, I don't think that roads or road usage are a right.

If roads are provided by government at whatever level (local/state/federal), then they must be paid for. The fairest way to do this is by usage, not by something like a gas tax, because if you tax gas, then people are paying for usage of the roads, even if the gas will not be used to drive on roads. Right now, if you buy gas for your generator, that money is (supposedly) pay for road maintenance and improvement.

In my entire life I have not bought over 1 gallon of gas for a generator and I still happen to have it. If you buy gas for something other than use on the roads apply for a friggin refund. You sir are an idiot.

http://www.secretsofthefed.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/197482_456911211019236_915740311_n.jpg

[TheCount]

In my entire life I have not bought over 1 gallon of gas for a generator and I still happen to have it. If you buy gas for something other than use on the roads apply for a friggin refund. You sir are an idiot.

Apply for a refund? :rolleyes:




http://www.secretsofthefed.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/197482_456911211019236_915740311_n.jpg

Doesn't even make any sense... you're the one who thinks that you have a right to roads, not me.

[pcosmar]

Yup, only a matter of time...count on the gas tax not going away.

Just another way to track you.

It is a big country.

There are lots of small counties. ;)

[pcosmar]

Doesn't even make any sense... you're the one who thinks that you have a right to roads, not me.

My ancestors built the roads. Government usurped them.

[mrsat_98]

Apply for a refund? :rolleyes:




Doesn't even make any sense... you're the one who thinks that you have a right to roads, not me.

Most states had a form when gas tax first started for refunds should you purchase fuel that was not for use on the roads. Instead you agree that there should be this huge bureaucracy and invasion of our right to privacy, among other rights so you don't have to pay tax on your generator fuel. What a joke. I don't think I have a right to travel on the roads, I know GD well I do.

[Ronin Truth]

If they're trying to encourage folks to move out of the area, I think that's really a very good idea.

[donnay]

Live Free or Drive.

[Natural Citizen]

Live Free or Drive.

Hitchiking is illegal in the I-95 Corridor. So, uh.....hm. :cool:

[tod evans]

Always better to fire bureaucrats (and eliminate their pensions!) than to raise taxes......

[oyarde]

Just off the top of my head , now that I am retired ,half the fuel I buy does not get used on the road. Tractor , Tiller , Chainsaws , Wood splitter , Weed eaters,mower , Generator etc. The generator alone holds 7 gallon and I have filled it up twice the past two times the power was out , basically to run a sump pump and save some freezers full of meat.

[MelissaWV]

So if I drive a 10,000 pound dually and you drive a Prius, we should get taxed the same?

Or are you going to suggest some sort of sliding scale?

If that's the case, why change anything?

The gas tax already self adjusts for that.

This is just a way in which to get Big Brother in your car everywhere you go, nothing more, and there is no upside to it.

Precisely. The gas tax also encourages --- without being an utter asshole about it --- people to consider fuel efficiency when purchasing a vehicle. The consideration may amount to "fuck it; I am getting a muscle car" but it's still in the back of our minds. We went from a small SUV and a Cadillac to two Civics at one point, and the difference was substantial enough to make it a huge consideration going forward.

[angelatc]

So are you in favor of taxing our right to use the roads ?

If you are using it, then you need to pay for it. That's kind of the point of libertarianism. With the introduction of alternative fuels, a gas tax probably isn't the most efficient way of distributing costs.

[angelatc]

So if I drive a 10,000 pound dually and you drive a Prius, we should get taxed the same?

Or are you going to suggest some sort of sliding scale?

If that's the case, why change anything?

The gas tax already self adjusts for that.


It allows propane fueled cars, electric cars and cooking oil powered cars not to pay anything at all. I drove a 1993 Ford Escort. But I am sure I used a lot more gas than a Prius even though I would assume the wear and tear was approximately the same.

I am (or was, before the Great Recession) a cost accountant by trade, and IMHO the gas tax is not the most effective method of distributing costs.

[AZJoe]

That's kind of the point of libertarianism.

The point of libertarianism is voluntary transactions - the non aggression principle. Taxes are not voluntary.

[AZJoe]

Yup, only a matter of time...count on the gas tax not going away.
Just another way to track you.

Exactly. Its rather Orwellian tracking everybody's travel. One more giant brick in building the police state.

[Zippyjuan]

Turn them into toll roads? Tax by the mile does not account for different types of vehicles causing more or less wear or tear on the highways if you want to properly assess the real costs of each car on the road though. A heaver vehicle like a commercial truck will cause more wear than a Honda Civic. Maybe a different toll for different sized vehicles.

Tax by the gallon of gas doesn't necessarily capture actual road usage and wear and tear either- a more efficient vehicle will burn less fuel (and pay fewer taxes) than a comparable sized vehicle travelling the same mileage and inflicting the same wear and tear on the road.

[MelissaWV]

Turn them into toll roads? Tax by the mile does not account for different types of vehicles causing more or less wear or tear on the highways if you want to properly assess the real costs of each car on the road though. A heaver vehicle like a commercial truck will cause more wear than a Honda Civic. Maybe a different toll for different sized vehicles.

Tax by the gallon of gas doesn't necessarily capture actual road usage and wear and tear either- a more efficient vehicle will burn less fuel (and pay fewer taxes) than a comparable sized vehicle travelling the same mileage and inflicting the same wear and tear on the road.

A lot of the lighter vehicles also happen to be the fuel efficient ones.

http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/wiredscience/2012/07/ueuepng.jpg

It's a lot better than tracking people around.

Incidentally, if people are going to nitpick about wear and tear on the roads, then the elephant in the room is that they'd have to track me to see which roads I'm on. If I spend a great deal of time on dirt roads or roads that will need very little/no upkeep to be funded by my fuel tax, I'm still taxed the same under all of the proposed systems.

[Zippyjuan]

Which is why if you want to go in that direction a toll road is better. It directly taxes those who use a specific road. Of course this does not work as well on city streets compared to highways.

[mrsat_98]

If you are using it, then you need to pay for it. That's kind of the point of libertarianism. With the introduction of alternative fuels, a gas tax probably isn't the most efficient way of distributing costs.

Oh yes lets convert all our rights to privileges so that we can be taxed equally.Why don't we consider taxing those who actually use the roads i.e. commercially. We don't have the right to use the roads for commercial purposes. Before an intelligent discussion can be had on this topic we must define the word use. Can we decide on what we are discussing before we decide its kewl to tax otherwise I suggest bowing down and licking the hand that feeds you.

[TheCount]

Oh yes lets convert all our rights to privileges

There is no such thing as a right to roads or the use thereof.


To explain why, let's think about what it would mean if, hypothetically, Americans had the right to roads. That would mean that someone, somewhere, is obligated to build and maintain roads for us. Likewise, a right to use roads would mean that if someone were to create a road, then immediately all other Americans would be entitled to use their road.

It's identical to the concept of the right to electricity, water, internet, healthcare, or donuts.

[Anti Federalist]

Maybe a different toll for different sized vehicles.

I'm guessing you don't drive on toll roads.

They are already set up that way.

Roughly 10 to 1 has been my experience...if you pay a buck, a full size 5 axle semi will pay $10.

[Anti Federalist]

There are ways which do not involve vehicle tracking.

Of course there are.

But that is not what will become law once having accepted the premise.

Not only will the system monitor miles, but rat out any "bad driving" to the cops as well.

[angelatc]

Oh yes lets convert all our rights to privileges so that we can be taxed equally.Why don't we consider taxing those who actually use the roads i.e. commercially. We don't have the right to use the roads for commercial purposes. Before an intelligent discussion can be had on this topic we must define the word use. Can we decide on what we are discussing before we decide its kewl to tax otherwise I suggest bowing down and licking the hand that feeds you.


The libertarian solution is some sort of user fee. That's just that.

[angelatc]

The point of libertarianism is voluntary transactions - the non aggression principle. Taxes are not voluntary.

Driving is voluntary. If you don't drive, why should you pay for the roads?

[Natural Citizen]

Driving is voluntary. If you don't drive, why should you pay for the roads?

I keep saying this about having to pay school taxes at gunpoint. I don't have a kid in school anymore so why they gotta be all up in my pockets...

[Anti Federalist]

I keep saying this about having to pay school taxes at gunpoint. I don't have a kid in school anymore so why they gotta be all up in my pockets...

Social Contract comrade.

Move the fuck along now.

[Natural Citizen]

Social Contract comrade.

Move the $#@! along now.


Mm. True. I think, though, that the so called free contract principle that angela mentioned is ultimately dependent upon coercion, too. In other words, I think that her so called free contract would still devolve into a social contract. And justice itself would likely turn into a commodity, too. Which is dangerous. And far more tyrannical than anything we've known throughout history.

Anyway. Far too complex of a discussion for the purpose of this thread. Maybe some other time we can go through and analyze all of the different isms that function and self-identify (equally dangerous) with libertarianism in some detail for comparison sake of their end results once thought all the way through. Reason being is that many, many ideas, comparable to stalking horses (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalking_horse), are often forwarded in the name of liberty, that, once thought all the way through, are technically counterintuitive to it in scope. And often counterintuitive in a way that defies any principles of non-aggression. Again, how would one physically enforce their rule of me not driving on their private road if I didn't pay them money to do so? How would they enforce the idea that simply not driving on their private road is the only means of opting out?

Of course, simply not driving on someone's private road isn't the only way to opt out. angela's description supports/furthers that notion that a monopoly must exist and guide the terms of controversy by the mere fact that the only way to opt opt, by her model, is to simply not drive. A pay me or you don't drive kind of deal. How would she enforce it? That's a fair question to ask. What if I decide that simply not driving on her road isn't the only way to opt out? What if I just build my own private road to compete with hers complete with my own private security forces...also to compete with hers? How do you think that would end up? It'd likely get jiggy as a mofo in a hot second. Well...unless her private security came to my doorstep to maybe "talk me out of it" first.

Similar to what Dear Leader was saying the other day...

http://tothedeathmedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/twist-arms.jpg

[mrsat_98]

There is no such thing as a right to roads or the use thereof.


To explain why, let's think about what it would mean if, hypothetically, Americans had the right to roads. That would mean that someone, somewhere, is obligated to build and maintain roads for us. Likewise, a right to use roads would mean that if someone were to create a road, then immediately all other Americans would be entitled to use their road.

It's identical to the concept of the right to electricity, water, internet, healthcare, or donuts.

In this country we have an absolute right to travel which includes use of an automobile on the roads. I have won once to this fact, I have a freind in Little Rock Arkansas that the police who impounded his car over and over and parked it in the fence of the impound lot across the street from his house numerous times came to him and advised they where told not to arrest him or sieze his automobile because if they keep doing it NO ONE in Arkansas would have to get a license. This occurred intermediately after a friend of mine worked up a little notice concerning inspection stickers based on an Arkansas case Gordan vs Smith (1937) I don't have the cite handy where inspection stickers had been held unconstitutional. As a result of his notice inspection stickers where repealed immediately.

The jest of my diatribe is simple if you are on the road for hire your use of the roads requires license etc and you do not have the "right" to use the roads and can be taxed by the mile, hour, gallon, ton etc. It is a privilege to use the roads as a place of business. I use the roads as a place of business its part of my career.

To help you understand the simple concept consider that the roads are an easement. Someone somewhere has a right to that easement. Who is that someone ? the People have the right to the use of the easement.

Corporations do not have any rights as they are a creature of the government. Corporations could be taxed in this fashion. I can be taxed like this in my AKA company truck because I haul stuff down the road for others for pay. You should really take a close look at your states MV code and give close consideration to the definitions therein. Drive, use, motor vehicle, this State, transportation all have very specialized definitions and if you pay close attention to them it's easy to see that your right to travel exists.

I agree it would be nearly impossible for government to respect this right, how the f??? would a policeman know the difference to what you where doing with your "ride".

I am glad this topic came up, I say let them try it will open the biggest can of worms for this nazi, communist, retard infested cess pool government that our bible warned us about.

Off to work have a nice day.

[BV2]

Doesn't increased fuel efficiency guarantee increased miles? So they want to charge people more for using less of something. State gonna state, I guess.

[jbauer]

Im in favor of removing the gas tax 100% from all states and reporting mileage. Not some sort of tracking device though. Just odometer readings annually.

[DamianTV]

They want their cake and to eat it too. If you use gas in your car, youre already paying per mile.

This has nothing to do with generating revenue. This has everything with constantly tracking every move you make so that your location data can be used against you in a court of law.

[tod evans]

Can politicians be burnt as bio-diesel?

[Root]

Can politicians be burnt as bio-diesel?
Let's see how combustable they are first, then we'll seek out an eco-solution :cool:

[donnay]

Can politicians be burnt as bio-diesel?

That would cause global warming.

[tod evans]

That would cause global warming.

It might be a net positive if you take into account all the BS they spew out both ends over the course of their tenure...

[RestorationOfLiberty]

The first guy to make a device that disables this thing will make tens of million.

[TheCount]

In this country we have an absolute right to travel which includes use of an automobile on the roads.

On whose roads? Where do those roads come from?



To help you understand the simple concept consider that the roads are an easement. Someone somewhere has a right to that easement. Who is that someone ? the People have the right to the use of the easement.

Apparently everything is a right now. :rolleyes:

[DamianTV]

The first guy to make a device that disables this thing will make tens of million.

Yes, but after taxes, registration of said tools, business licenses, fees compliance inspections, and costs afforded for regulation of said device, the net profits could be measured in a handful of pesos.

[LibertyRevolution]

The commercial truckers should have to pay to maintain the roads, they are the ones that damage them the worst, so I say tax only them.
Then they can pass the tax on to the guys freight they are carrying, then to the rest of us in increased retail prices.

:rolleyes:

[Schifference]

Tax tires. Obviously they are based on milage and bigger tires accommodate heavier larger vehicles.