We Need A Fraternal Society For Libertarians, ala Rotary Club, Lions Club, etc

[r3volution 3.0]

Organizations like these serve two main functions: a) They help like-minded people meet one another and develop a sense of solidarity, and b) They allow said people to form an "old boys' club," glad-handing one another for mutual benefit (and the better libertarians are doing in their lives and careers, the more useful they are to the movement). We have nothing like this in the liberty movement. We have online groups like RPF, and we have real-life but niche groups like YAL. There is no general "club" for libertarians to belong to, with a local chapter, where they can physically go and socialize with one another, make business deals, help one another out.

[acptulsa]

Actually, our 2008 meetup still gets together.

[r3volution 3.0]

Actually, our 2008 meetup still gets together.

That's good but it's not quite the same.

A MeetUp meeting is just a group of individuals; there's no clear procedure for getting anything done.

To have the things that Rotary et al have (meeting places that they own, events which they finance, etc), you need a formal organization.

Bylaws, officers, dues.

There's a reason that clubs are traditionally organized that way.

[heavenlyboy34]

Trying to fit all the various types of libertarians into a single club is going to be like Herding Cats(TM). ;) Not likely going to happen, but good luck to ye. I'd probably join something like that. :)

[r3volution 3.0]

Trying to fit all the various types of libertarians into a single club is going to be like Herding Cats(TM). ;) Not likely going to happen, but good luck to ye. I'd probably join something like that. :)

Well, if you and I would both join it, that speaks well of its broad appeal, doesn't it? :)

I think the key is to make it non-political; people can talk politics of course, but no involvement in elections, no endorsements, etc.

...people can use the club to organize with others to do those things, but the club per se wouldn't do it.

[SilentBull]

I like this idea. It should be a very exclusive invitation-only club. Members would help each other become more influential within society.

[heavenlyboy34]

Well, if you and I would both join it, that speaks well of its broad appeal, doesn't it? :)

I think the key is to make it non-political; people can talk politics of course, but no involvement in elections, no endorsements, etc.

...people can use the club to organize with others to do those things, but the club per se wouldn't do it.

w00t! I'd join something like that if the dues weren't overpriced. :) :cool:

[Suzanimal]

I like this idea.

Me, too.


It should be a very exclusive invitation-only club. Members would help each other become more influential within society.

I never qualify for those clubs.:(

[r3volution 3.0]

It should be a very exclusive invitation-only club.

Yes, single blackball rule perhaps.

[oyarde]

Organizations like these serve two main functions: a) They help like-minded people meet one another and develop a sense of solidarity, and b) They allow said people to form an "old boys' club," glad-handing one another for mutual benefit (and the better libertarians are doing in their lives and careers, the more useful they are to the movement). We have nothing like this in the liberty movement. We have online groups like RPF, and we have real-life but niche groups like YAL. There is no general "club" for libertarians to belong to, with a local chapter, where they can physically go and socialize with one another, make business deals, help one another out.
They advertise a party meeting once a month in the newspaper in my County , I have seen it in there several times.

[r3volution 3.0]

They advertise a party meeting once a month in the newspaper in my County , I have seen it in there several times.

Who does?

[oyarde]

w00t! I'd join something like that if the dues weren't overpriced. :) :cool:

Bernie will pay mine .

[oyarde]

Who does?

The Libertarian party.

[Suzanimal]

The Libertarian party.

Ours meets at a bar. They were real excited when they had to pull two tables together to accommodate everyone.

[William Tell]

Well, if you and I would both join it, that speaks well of its broad appeal, doesn't it? :)

I think the key is to make it non-political; people can talk politics of course, but no involvement in elections, no endorsements, etc.

...people can use the club to organize with others to do those things, but the club per se wouldn't do it.

Might be kind of hard to market a political club that is non-political.

[r3volution 3.0]

The Libertarian party.

Oh, okay, but that's a different sort of enterprise.

...to be quite honest, despite the fact that I'll be protest voting LP this year, I wouldn't want to hang out with those people socially.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/JVSlCvHA7zE/hqdefault.jpg

...yikes.

[Suzanimal]

Might be kind of hard to market a political club that is non-political.

Free beer might work but he'd have to be a lot less picky about who he lets join.

[oyarde]

Ours meets at a bar. They were real excited when they had to pull two tables together to accommodate everyone.

A friend of mine even pd to set up a display at the county fair one yr. , he gave away iced tea if I recall. I went out and sat with him one day.

[heavenlyboy34]

Oh, okay, but that's a different sort of enterprise.

...to be quite honest, despite the fact that I'll be protest voting LP this year, I wouldn't want to hang out with those people socially.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/JVSlCvHA7zE/hqdefault.jpg

...yikes.

Not sure if real pic or SNL-esque satire... :eek:

[oyarde]

Thing about a fraternal society is you need a place to meet.....

[r3volution 3.0]

Not sure if real pic or SNL-esque satire... :eek:

Oh no, it's real.

http://www.cnn.com/2016/05/30/politics/james-weeks-libertarian-convention/

[r3volution 3.0]

Thing about a fraternal society is you need a place to meet.....

So you buy one.

That's what dues are for.

[oyarde]

Not sure if real pic or SNL-esque satire... :eek:

It is real.

[r3volution 3.0]

Might be kind of hard to market a political club that is non-political.

Market it as a social club or fraternity for libertarians, as opposed to a political action group.

...not unlike RPF currently, which allows individual members to organize political action but isn't endorsing anyone or organizing anything itself.

[oyarde]

So you buy one.

That's what dues are for.

Yeah and that excludes most Libertarians , they are nearly two types , fairly wealthy or dirt poor .

[oyarde]

I do think it is a worthy idea .

[r3volution 3.0]

Yeah and that excludes most Libertarians , they are nearly two types , fairly wealthy or dirt poor .

A 30 year mortgage on a $300,000 property with good credit, plus taxes, is going to cost about $1800/month.

If the club has 50 members, that's $36 per month.

100 members, $18 per month.

...seems pretty reasonable to me.

[r3volution 3.0]

Regarding exclusivity, maybe there should be a two tiered arrangement, with voting members and social members (as many clubs have).

Voting members control the club, so becoming one should be extremely difficult - single blackball rule let's say.

Social membership is much easier to obtain.

....maybe for friends and relatives of voting members who just want to hang out, don't care about politics, etc.

That way the club can grow but still maintain its ideological integrity and avoid infiltration by non-libertarians.

[Origanalist]

Actually, I like the idea. Any consideration given to what to name it?

[Suzanimal]

Actually, I like the idea. Any consideration given to what to name it?

Liberty League

[r3volution 3.0]

Actually, I like the idea. Any consideration given to what to name it?

No, but the bar/restaurant should be called the Chestnut Tree Cafe.

P.S. Oh, how about Libertarians Anonymous?

[Origanalist]

No, but the bar/restaurant should be called the Chestnut Tree Cafe.

P.S. Oh, how about Libertarians Anonymous?

A 12 step recovery program for libertyholics?

[Origanalist]

Liberty League

Has a nice ring to it. "Honey, I'm going down to the Liberty League Club". :)

[r3volution 3.0]

A 12 step recovery program for libertyholics?

God, grant me the serenity to accept the politicians I cannot change,
Courage to change the politicians I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.

[oyarde]

This would be a good way for Danke to make up for all of my gifts he forgets to give me ea yr , he could pay my dues .

[Danke]

This would be a good way for Danke to make up for all of my gifts he forgets to give me ea yr , he could pay my dues .

They give memberships to Injuns?!

[oyarde]

They give memberships to Injuns?!

That is a valid question because I am not joining if they will not serve me at the bar . I drank in the parking lot in High School, I have moved up since then.

[oyarde]

They give memberships to Injuns?!

Probably have to exclude the Texan though , LOL

[r3volution 3.0]

They give memberships to Injuns?!

If their wampum's green, sure.

[RonPaulIsGreat]

As long as it's LGBT friendly.

[Origanalist]

As long as it's LGBT friendly.

Well, that is the most important thing.

[Suzanimal]

Fraternal Society

Wait is this a boys only club?:confused:

[William Tell]

As long as it's LGBT friendly.

A cake a day keeps the **** away

[oyarde]

Wait is this a boys only club?:confused:

Hell no , Libertarians are probably used to it like that , but I intend to pull in the ladies .

[Suzanimal]

Hell no , Libertarians are probably used to it like that , but I intend to pull in the ladies .

With fraternal in the title, it sounds like another libertarian sausage fest to me.

[Suzanimal]

maybe a better name would be Liberty Links

[oyarde]

With fraternal in the title, it sounds like another libertarian sausage fest to me.

Yep , time to end the sausage fest image .

[Suzanimal]

Yep , time to end the sausage fest image .

It's starting to sound like a gay club.

[William Tell]

It's starting to sound like a gay club.

Well, if they serve sandwiches instead of cakes, it is a straight club.

[Suzanimal]

Well, if they serve sandwiches instead of cakes, it is a straight club.

If it's a straight mens only club, who's going to make the sammiches?:confused:

[Danke]

Wait is this a boys only club?:confused:

I'm sure they would make exception if it is you.

[William Tell]

If it's a straight mens only club, who's going to make the sammiches?:confused:

Some hairy guy in a back room?

[Suzanimal]

I'm sure they would make exception if it is you.

Why on earth would I want to join a gay mens club?:confused:


Some hairy guy in a back room?

A bear?

[Danke]

Why on earth would I want to join a gay mens club?:confused:



because you have so much in common a lot to talk about.

[RonPaulIsGreat]

SuckersForLiberty

[Suzanimal]

because you have so much in common a lot to talk about.

True...


SuckersForLiberty

LOL :D

[oyarde]

Liberty League

I like it

[Schifference]

The town/city officials would hate us. Our group would have an organized presence at all town meetings opposing corruption and politics as usual.

[oyarde]

The town/city officials would hate us. Our group would have an organized presence at all town meetings opposing corruption and politics as usual.

I like that too .

[Suzanimal]

I like it

If I'm not allowed to join, I'm going to use it for my club.

[oyarde]

If I'm not allowed to join, I'm going to use it for my club.

You can join my club.

[r3volution 3.0]

The town/city officials would hate us. Our group would have an organized presence at all town meetings opposing corruption and politics as usual.

...unless the town/city officials are club members.

;)

You'll find a disproportionate number of Rotary Club, Lions Club, Masons, etc in local government.

No reason we couldn't do the same.

[Anti Federalist]

To have the things that Rotary et al have (meeting places that they own, events which they finance, etc), you need a formal organization.

Bylaws, officers, dues.

You just answered your own question as to why there are none.

I'm told what to do at my job, under Uncle Sucker and the Byzatine layers of government all around us, by my wife.

The last thing I need to do is join up for more rules to follow.

The loss of cultural homogeneity and the avalanche of rules under the police state coupled with the loss of the middle class is what is killing these orgs now.

[Anti Federalist]

As long as it's LGBT friendly.

Aren't you missing a few letters there?

#triggered

[Suzanimal]

You can join my club.


You just answered your own question as to why there are none.

I'm told what to do at my job, under Uncle Sucker and the Byzatine layers of government all around us, by my wife.

The last thing I need to do is join up for more rules to follow.

The loss of cultural homogeneity and the avalanche of rules under the police state coupled with the loss of the middle class is what is killing these orgs now.

I bet oyarde's club doesn't have too many rules. Probably BYOB, though.

[Suzanimal]

I still don't know if it's guys only. Since r3v 3.0's ignoring my question, I'm going to leave the sausage fest.

[r3volution 3.0]

I still don't know if it's guys only. Since r3v 3.0's ignoring my question, I'm going to leave the sausage fest.

I didn't realize it was a serious question...

No, it's not guys only.

The word fraternal can refer to any group of people with common interests, goals, etc.

It doesn't always mean a men's group.

[r3volution 3.0]

You just answered your own question as to why there are none.

I'm told what to do at my job, under Uncle Sucker and the Byzatine layers of government all around us, by my wife.

The last thing I need to do is join up for more rules to follow.

If you're opposed to rules as such (which must be the case, since you can't be opposed to the rules of our hypothetical libertarian club, since they haven't been determined yet), I guess you must not leave your house much, since anywhere you go (e.g. restaurant) has rules. I don't have a problem with voluntarily accepted rules, as at any private venue, but whatever floats your boat.

[libertyjam]

I like this idea. It should be a very exclusive invitation-only club. Members would help each other become more influential within society.


not good enough, it should have some Secret initiations and aspects to it too, not a completely Secret Society(tm), but enough to provide some mystique about it and only some initiates in it will be able to know the very coveted and Enlightened aspects as well. It will attract more people that way.

[r3volution 3.0]

not good enough, it should have some Secret initiations and aspects to it too, not a completely Secret Society(tm), but enough to provide some mystique about it and only some initiates in it will be able to know the very coveted and Enlightened aspects as well. It will attract more people that way.

That's a definite possibility.

...some aspects of such a plan shouldn't be discussed on an open forum, however.

[oyarde]

I bet oyarde's club doesn't have too many rules. Probably BYOB, though.

Yep byob.

[oyarde]

I guess I could charge 2 FRN's a beer , except Danke , Three Fitty for him. Maybe throw in a few hot dogs on the grill ,LOL

[Suzanimal]

I didn't realize it was a serious question...

No, it's not guys only.

The word fraternal can refer to any group of people with common interests, goals, etc.

It doesn't always mean a men's group.

It usually does.


fraternal
[fruh-tur-nl]

adjective
1.
of or befitting a brother or brothers; brotherly.
2.
of or being a society of men associated in brotherly union, as for mutual aid or benefit:

I don't give a crap if you want to start (another) libertarian sausagefest but if I were looking for a political club to join and saw fraternal in the name, I wouldn't bother looking into it because I'm female. I'm just pointing that out because if you use that word in the name of the club, it may cause (some) woman to look elsewhere.


I guess I could charge 2 FRN's a beer , except Danke , Three Fitty for him.

How much for Franzia?


Maybe throw in a few hot dogs on the grill ,LOL

LOL, a weenie roast.

[Danke]

I guess I could charge 2 FRN's a beer , except Danke , Three Fitty for him. Maybe throw in a few hot dogs on the grill ,LOL

I have beads!!

[oyarde]

I have beads!!

High quality beads are good , that gets you closer to 2 FRN beer.

[r3volution 3.0]

It usually does.

https://i.imgur.com/E4uc09t.png

[Suzanimal]

Fraternal organization, an organized society of men associated together in an environment of companionship and brotherhood, dedicated to the intellectual, physical, and social development of its members
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraternal

[Origanalist]

We're going to have to give it a new moniker so Suz will stop bitching.

[tod evans]

How much for Franzia?



Only tequila for the wenches..........:cool:

[Suzanimal]

We're going to have to give it a new moniker so Suz will stop bitching.

I'm not bitching but a fraternal order indicates that it's a male organization to me. I don't care if that's what y'all want but if ya want some chicks to show up then I would consider calling it something else. Maybe that's the reason I'm the only female who's commented in this thread.:confused:


Only tequila for the wenches..........:cool:

That would be one way to make more liberty babies.:)

[Origanalist]

Still bitching..:D

[Origanalist]

Joking aside, I remember back when my ex tried to get me to go to the Eagles club there were plenty of women.

[Carlybee]

Sounds like menism.

[oyarde]

Joking aside, I remember back when my ex tried to get me to go to the Eagles club there were plenty of women.

Yeah , all of them around here have as many gals as guys .Probably the bingo and what not , lol

[Suzanimal]

Joking aside, I remember back when my ex tried to get me to go to the Eagles club there were plenty of women.

They have a Ladies Auxiliary (somebodies gotta make the sammiches:p). However, it seems they do have at least one female Eagle.


First Woman Aerie Member

On April, 2016 in Morro Bay, Ca. None Smith was voted into the local FOE Aeire's Chapter as the first Woman Member of her Aerie.

[Suzanimal]

I think we may need a poll.:toady:

[fcreature]

I like the idea. Now being able to execute it, who knows.

When I visited NH while considering the free state project (I'm in NY) I did stop by a libertarian club house. Don't remember what it was called but it was pretty neat. No clue how they structured anything or even if they had due paying members.

[jllundqu]

I also like the idea.

An issue I see is having enough people in any one area to actually meetup and get one running. Hell, we are online and there's barely enough here! Say we started one in Phoenix, AZ. There's a few members here. We would need:

A place to meet - Could be anywhere, really. Someone's house, a bar/restaurant, or borrowed facility of some sort.
A mission or goal - Would it be political or not? Or is this just a physical manifestation of RPF-like people to meetup that share common values?

I actually like the idea a lot. It could grow as the state screws more and more people. I know tons of people who are just pissed at the whole system. We could just open the doors and welcome them to the party with beer in hand.

[Carlybee]

Most fraternal thingies do charity work. That would go a long way toward libertarians putting their money where their mouths are.

[jllundqu]

Most fraternal thingies do charity work. That would go a long way toward libertarians putting their money where their mouths are.

Agreed!

My Mason lodge does pancake breakfasts to raise money for homeless vets... I'd love to be in a Minarchist/libertarian Society that raised money for things for the cause of liberty...

[Carlybee]

Agreed!

My Mason lodge does pancake breakfasts to raise money for homeless vets... I'd love to be in a Minarchist/libertarian Society that raised money for things for the cause of liberty...

Toward liberty but also just philanthropy because libertarianism has the perception of being a philosophy for the uncaring.

[Danke]

I also like the idea.

An issue I see is having enough people in any one area to actually meetup and get one running. Hell, we are online and there's barely enough here! Say we started one in Phoenix, AZ. There's a few members here. We would need:

A place to meet - Could be anywhere, really. Someone's house, a bar/restaurant, or borrowed facility of some sort.
A mission or goal - Would it be political or not? Or is this just a physical manifestation of RPF-like people to meetup that share common values?

I actually like the idea a lot. It could grow as the state screws more and more people. I know tons of people who are just pissed at the whole system. We could just open the doors and welcome them to the party with beer in hand.

HB could make your sandwiches.

[Anti Federalist]

If you're opposed to rules as such (which must be the case, since you can't be opposed to the rules of our hypothetical libertarian club, since they haven't been determined yet), I guess you must not leave your house much, since anywhere you go (e.g. restaurant) has rules. I don't have a problem with voluntarily accepted rules, as at any private venue, but whatever floats your boat.

No, I don't care for rules much.

Which I why I would not voluntarily subject myself to even more.

[jllundqu]

No, I don't care for rules much.

Which I why I would not voluntarily subject myself to even more.

Then the first rule of the new society will be NO RULES! ;) :cool:

[r3volution 3.0]

Most fraternal thingies do charity work. That would go a long way toward libertarians putting their money where their mouths are.


Toward liberty but also just philanthropy because libertarianism has the perception of being a philosophy for the uncaring.

Excellent idea, demonstrate that we're not all Randian egoists (and also demonstrate the value of private charity contra the welfare-state)


I also like the idea.

An issue I see is having enough people in any one area to actually meetup and get one running. Hell, we are online and there's barely enough here! Say we started one in Phoenix, AZ. There's a few members here. We would need:

A place to meet - Could be anywhere, really. Someone's house, a bar/restaurant, or borrowed facility of some sort.
A mission or goal - Would it be political or not? Or is this just a physical manifestation of RPF-like people to meetup that share common values?

As to the first point, either a relatively well-off libertarian in the community could rent/buy a place first and then start gathering members, or members could gather together at a temporary spot as you suggest until there's enough people and motivation to invest. As to the second, I'm envisioning the latter: an RPF-like place for libertarians to socialize (and to organize political activism, but the club itself doesn't endorse candidate or use dues for political purposes, etc, so as to not to alienate anyone in the minority).


I actually like the idea a lot. It could grow as the state screws more and more people. I know tons of people who are just pissed at the whole system. We could just open the doors and welcome them to the party with beer in hand.

Sounds good

[r3volution 3.0]

Q. What should be the relationship between chapters of the organization in different parts of the country?

Just an informal affiliation, or should there be a national-level organization as many other clubs have?

[Suzanimal]

Another thing to consider is the tax structure of such an organization. We would definitely want tax exempt status and certain requirements need to be met to qualify.

[r3volution 3.0]

Another thing to consider is the tax structure of such an organization. We would definitely want tax exempt status and certain requirements need to be met to qualify.

Good point

It would definitely be non-profit, and it wouldn't be directly involved in politics, so I would think it could get tax exempt status.

....not sure what the specific requirements are.

[Suzanimal]

Good point

It would definitely be non-profit, and it wouldn't be directly involved in politics, so I would think it could get tax exempt status.

....not sure what the specific requirements are.

A lot depends on its mission....

For example...


Fraternal Societies

To be exempt under Internal Revenue Code (IRC) section 501(c)(8), a fraternal beneficiary society, order, or association must meet the following requirements:
It must have a fraternal purpose. An organization has a fraternal purpose if membership is based on a common tie or the pursuit of a common object. The organization must also have a substantial program of fraternal activities.

It must operate under the lodge system or for the exclusive benefit of the members of a fraternal organization itself operating under the lodge system. Operating under the lodge system requires, at a minimum, two active entities: (i) a parent organization; and (ii) a subordinate (called a lodge, branch, or the like) chartered by the parent and largely self-governing.

It must provide for the payment of life, sick, accident, or other benefits to the members of such society, order, or association or their dependents.
An organization that provides benefits to some, but not all, of its members may qualify for exemption so long as most of the members are eligible for benefits, and criteria for excluding certain members are reasonable.

To be exempt under IRC 501(c)(10), a domestic fraternal society, order, or association must meet the following requirements:

It must have a fraternal purpose. An organization has a fraternal purpose if membership is based on a common tie or the pursuit of a common object. The organization must also have a substantial program of fraternal activities.

It must operate under the lodge system. Operating under the lodge system requires, at a minimum, two active entities: (i) a parent organization; and (ii) a subordinate organization (called a lodge, branch, or the like) chartered by the parent and largely self-governing.

It must not provide for the payment of life, sick, accident, or other benefits to its members. The organization may arrange with insurance companies to provide optional insurance to its members without jeopardizing its exempt status.

It must devote its net earnings exclusively to religious, charitable, scientific, literary, educational, and fraternal purposes.

It must be a domestic organization, that is, it must be organized in the United States.

To be exempt, a fraternal organization should apply for exemption.

https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/other-non-profits/fraternal-societies

[r3volution 3.0]

To be exempt under IRC 501(c)(10), a domestic fraternal society, order, or association must meet the following requirements:

It must have a fraternal purpose. An organization has a fraternal purpose if membership is based on a common tie or the pursuit of a common object. The organization must also have a substantial program of fraternal activities.

check


It must operate under the lodge system. Operating under the lodge system requires, at a minimum, two active entities: (i) a parent organization; and (ii) a subordinate organization (called a lodge, branch, or the like) chartered by the parent and largely self-governing.

So then, there must be a formal relationship between chapters.


It must not provide for the payment of life, sick, accident, or other benefits to its members. The organization may arrange with insurance companies to provide optional insurance to its members without jeopardizing its exempt status.

check (though if we ever wanted to do this, which might not be a bad idea, we could switch to 501(c)(8) evidently)


It must devote its net earnings exclusively to religious, charitable, scientific, literary, educational, and fraternal purposes.

check


It must be a domestic organization, that is, it must be organized in the United States.

check

[Anti Federalist]

I'd love to be in a Minarchist/libertarian Society that raised money for things for the cause of liberty...

That's the model for how many things started here in the US, from fire departments to life insurance.

All killed off during the "progressive era".

[bunklocoempire]

Josh's peeramid thread (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?496569-Peeramids-com-Please-critique-a-rough-draft-of-my-peeramids-scheme)makes a good pairing for this thread.

Join the Society For Libertarians, put your property where your mouth is, and show how government and voluntary solutions compare, in helping people help themselves.

-----


No, I don't care for rules much.

Which I why I would not voluntarily subject myself to even more.

Right there with you.

[Carlybee]

Do we get to wear little Fez caps and ride mini-bikes? :)

[r3volution 3.0]

Do we get to wear little Fez caps and ride mini-bikes? :)

Weak..

Ron Paul masks and monster trucks