State of the movement; state of the site – discussion and conference calls

[Bryan]

You should have seen the announcement of the site moving forward with a new vision into a new era (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?494373-A-new-site-vision-a-new-era). Included in that we outlined a series of issues that we plan to address and some work elements we will be engaging in. One key to our plan is that our actions are best tailored to the state of the liberty movement. So with that…

* What is the state of the liberty movement? How does it compare to 2013? 2010? 2008?

* Do you know people who were involved in the past but are no longer? If so, do you know why?

* What makes most sense for us as individuals to do?

* What direction should the site move in?

Please share your thoughts here.


In addition to this discussion the site will host a series of conference calls to discuss these topics. Each conference call will have a limited number of participates (around 5-7) and each participate group will be tailored to maximize value of the call. Please PM or e-mail me if you are interested in taking part in a conference call.

Thank you.

[Suzanimal]

Oh, cool. Will it be via Skype? I don't have a Skype but I can use my sons. I dunno how to conference call but if someone can give me instructions I can probably figure it out.:)

[Bryan]

Oh, cool. Will it be via Skype? I don't have a Skype but I can use my sons. I dunno how to conference call but if someone can give me instructions I can probably figure it out.:)
Skype is the current default plan. It's not hard to use, we'll get you some instruction and do a test before hand.

Thanks!

[presence]

What is the state of the liberty movement?

coopted by the patriot movement, the trumpian movement, chicago economics, anti muslim & mexican sentiment, alt right

everyone wants "the liberty vote" but very few have any concept of what Ron's austrian economic vision of liberty means.

all the people Ron tried to put under one tent with appealing political slogans ran away when all that was left was a bunch of ancaps explaining that the slogans were just there to get your vote for austrian economics in disguise

secure muh borders!



liberty was less appealing to "patriots" when it meant green cards with an asterisk for foreigners instead of machine gun, check points, and walls


How does it compare to 2013? 2010? 2008?

the jackboot of socialism fascism and all the other statisms grows heavier by the day



* What makes most sense for us as individuals to do?

agorism, withdrawal, study philosophy, enact a personal Renaissance


* What direction should the site move in?



greater emphasis on think tank forums; austrian econ / philosophy
structured debate threads
More focus on scholarly article commentary; distillation of talking points; platforms
Greater support for one another in homeschool methods;
more interactive agorism amongst forum members; greater use of marketplace buy/sell/trade
more time on philosophy, less on political news
personal invitations to bloggers/writers/twitterites that lean austrian econ




austrian economics education is the path to freedom
unregulated, voluntary, emergent catallaxy in all sectors is the vision
1,000,000 pages of federal regulation, 65,000 pages of tax code; tens of millions more state and locally... the impediment




"We need intellectual leaders who are willing to work for an ideal,
however small may be the prospects of its early realization.
They must be men who are willing to stick to principles
and to fight for their full realization, however remote.
The practical compromises they must leave to the politicians"

F. A. von Hayek

[LibertyEagle]

everyone wants "the liberty vote" but very few have any concept of what Ron's austrian economic vision of liberty means.
Very true, thus...

My answer is simple. Do the exact opposite of what Presence just posted.

[presence]

I prefer lowercase presence thanks :D

[HVACTech]

My answer is simple. Do the exact opposite of what Presence just posted.

I find it to be a bit amusing... that RonPaulForums seems confused about the intent of Ron Paul. :p

why don't we just dance with the men who brought us here?

adopting the positions of Ron Paul and the founders does not exclude anyone.. or denote "censorship". Ron Paul has firm convictions.
it is true that distilling them to recognizable "positions" (or, Labels).. will in fact reveal the intent (or ignorance) of some members.. so?

having a position is not the same as demanding obedience to such.

example, both Ron Paul and the Founders advocate for "sound money". this is in keeping with Austrian not Keynesian economics. why?
because this promotes a level playing field for the people and serves to inhibit and limit government.
why make it anymore complicated than that?
if they want answers, they can ask? :)

most of Ron Paul's positions overlap with those of our founders.
and if we cannot identify and explain those for folks.... who can? :confused:

[Origanalist]

Very true, thus...

My answer is simple. Do the exact opposite of what Presence just posted.

Because...?

[LibertyEagle]

Because...?

Ron Paul does not advocate for the illegal alien overrun of our borders; nor does he, nor has he ever, supported the cultural marxist ideal of "multiculturalism".

As far as another think tank is concerned. There are already tons of them. People preaching to the choir and believing themselves to be superior to everyone else. What we have far too little of are people willing to get off their butts and do something constructive to start righting what has been, or is being, destroyed.

[Origanalist]

Ron Paul does not advocate for the illegal alien overrun of our borders; nor does he, nor has he ever, supported the cultural marxist ideal of "multiculturalism".

As far as another think tank is concerned. There are already tons of them. People preaching to the choir and believing themselves to be superior to everyone else. What we have far too little of are people willing to get off their butts and do something constructive to start righting what has been, or is being, destroyed.

I didn't advocate for a illegal alien over run of our borders. But it's long done and over. So now the question is how to deal with what is already done.

[LibertyEagle]

I didn't advocate for a illegal alien over run of our borders. But it's long done and over.

I never said you did. You interceded in a comment I made about someone else's post.


So now the question is how to deal with what is already done.

First off, don't allow more.

Someone once warned us, you get more of what you subsidize.

[Origanalist]

I never said you did. You interceded in a comment I made about someone else's post.



First off, don't allow more.

Someone once warned us, you get more of what you subsidize.

Ok, is there anyone who is going to stop subsidizing it? Beyond ever changing rhetoric?

[LibertyEagle]

Ok, is there anyone who is going to stop subsidizing it? Beyond ever changing rhetoric?

Maybe not. But, you could use that same defeatism for just about everything. We will lose, so why try? I don't subscribe to that. Sorry. I also don't think this is the thread to continue this discussion.

[Origanalist]

Maybe not. But, you could use that same defeatism for just about everything. We will lose, so why try? I don't subscribe to that. Sorry. I also don't think this is the thread to continue this discussion.

Fair enough.

[younglibertarian]

* What is the state of the liberty movement? How does it compare to 2013? 2010? 2008?

I would say at the moment we are scattered and dispersed. In past years the reason the liberty movement was so visible was because there was a central goal, that being getting Ron Paul (and Rand) elected and spreading his message. The grassroots were visible because we had a central goal. Additionally, we have been hijacked by the supposed "Tea Party," which is now mostly a den of lukewarm neo-cons. Basically what has really harmed us is a combination of two things.

1. Lacking a clear leader figure/candidate/party we can rally behind this election. (Yes I know we are mostly libertarians, but face it we look up to leaders and men of principle.

2. The rise in popularity of fake Anti-Establishment candidates such as Bernie Sanders, and Donald Trump. These candidates steal our thunder because their supporters have the same hate of government (twisted yes) and passion for their candidates as we do, they outnumber us vastly. Unfortunately they do not realize they are still supporting Socialism/Authoritarianism. They have hijacked the true Anti-Establishment movement.


* Do you know people who were involved in the past but are no longer? If so, do you know why?

Yes, and I think it is a result of exhaustion. Most people run out of enthusiasm after not achieving the result. I know I myself fully devoted my time, money, heart, soul, and passion to Ron Paul's 2012 campaign. (Many of you guys here did it since 2008!) Let's face it: The goal of RP's campaign was educational. But because of all the effort we put in most of us fully wanted to WIN. After the 2012 I looked at all that everybody had done, the grassroots and everything, and thought HOW COULD WE HAVE LOST? Many people came to the conclusion after 2012 (and some after 2008) that a liberty minded candidate could not win, and simply gave up to an extent. That's why I believe Rand Paul's campaign was a lot less successful. People were frustrated and had far less enthusiasm.



* What makes most sense for us as individuals to do?


As individuals? I think that is part of the problem. All of us may be activists in different ways, bu few of us have 1 central objective/rally point. I think that is the core problem.



* What direction should the site move in?

I'm not entirely sure. I think we definitely need to focus in on a presidential candidate to support at least for the time being. (2016)

[younglibertarian]

That being said, some more constructive debate sections with actual rules for responses and time would be extremely cool. (not suggesting we remove the sections we have right now.)

[kfarnan]

* Do you know people who were involved in the past but are no longer? If so, do you know why?

People don't see any hope for this country anymore.

* What makes most sense for us as individuals to do?

The path forward is individual freedom. This system is not worth trying to fix, imo. My concern is to be free of this societies chains.

[Bryan]

Thanks for the responses so far.

A follow-up, there have been a few response of things being coopted / hijacked by other movements, etc. Could we analyze that in more detail?

Why were people coopted / hijacked? Was this a targeted effort? Did they just not learn the base theory properly and thus couldn’t tell the different? Did they do it for practical political reasons? Did they do it for social reasons (friends, etc)? How did the media impact this? Thanks.

[Bryan]

That being said, some more constructive debate sections with actual rules for responses and time would be extremely cool. (not suggesting we remove the sections we have right now.)
Good suggestion, we'll backlog it, I'm not sure we have the needed traffic to support it right now.

That said, it is within the power of the OP to set rules of the thread, and they can flag posts that violate those rules to get deleted.

As a site, we have also established the following:

Functional Debate Principles
The site has established debate principles to help achieve productive discourse. Use of these principles is always encouraged and required for dissent to site established efforts that are working toward the advancement of our Mission. The principles are:

* Follow the site's Community Guidelines, taking particular care not to use ad hominem attacks and insults against others. This means don't say "You're [some derogatory term]"
* Debate only in proper context; start a new thread if necessary.
* Present your position in an intellectual manner. Provide reasoned supporting details.
* Maintain a respectful disposition.
* Do not claim something to be true/false without presenting proof.
* Work to get along with other participants. Ask clarifying questions before casting negative assumptions.
* Use extreme care to not misrepresent what you are arguing against. Ask clarifying questions before casting potentially inflammatory misrepresentation.
* Remember to be respectful and work to achieve the purpose of advancing the site's Mission.

Source: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/content.php?1989

A good spin-off topic would be what are good rules for debate.

Thanks.

[presence]

Thanks for the responses so far.

A follow-up, there have been a few response of things being coopted / hijacked by other movements, etc. Could we analyze that in more detail?

Why were people coopted / hijacked?

These people were coopted because they got here on campaign promises, but we never took the time to indoctrinate the economics behind the campaign promises... we let them be deluded by the glory of their pet issue fitting into the liberty platform.



I think joe voter gets too lost in line item issues... they lose track of underlying philosophy that united those issues into a common platform.

Ron arrived at every position through austrian economic analysis; human action, praxeology, voluntarism.

Many of his followers arrived at their political positions for less philosophical reasons; many single issue voters... so you get things like...

my big issue is legalize marijuana... whichever politician says we get weed gets my vote... Ron's out, Rands out....feel the bern bitches! roast a phatty bowl!


my big issue is secure our border... oh look... trump promises a massive wall!
my big issue is terrorism... oh look cruz says carpet bomb the sand people... gets my vote.


The solution is to recognize that pandering and white washing liberty stances to voter pet issues is not the solution. The solution is to familiarize people with austrian econ; to improve vocabularies; praxeology, the knowledge problem, catallaxy, agorism, etc... without fluent usage of new vocabularies and a comprehensive understanding of mises, rothbard, hayek... we'll never win anyone to liberty for more than pet issues.

If we take this path then we have masses that always choose liberty because Human Action; not occasionally choosing liberty because it suits their self centric utopia.

[Natural Citizen]

Skype is the current default plan. It's not hard to use, we'll get you some instruction and do a test before hand.

Thanks!

Hm. This is along the line of what I had in mind when I'd mentioned a podcast. Kind of an in-house thing for a while. Except live.

With the Skype thing, would you go live with it? I don't really know how skype works. I've never used it. I do use Google Hangouts once in a while, though. I do it from my phone.

Something like that could be useful if peope weren't concerned with putting themselves out there.

[Natural Citizen]

Oh, cool. Will it be via Skype? I don't have a Skype but I can use my sons. I dunno how to conference call but if someone can give me instructions I can probably figure it out.:)

I don't know why but I thought of Crank Yankers when you chimed in, Suzanimal. :)

[Natural Citizen]

Matter of fact, you know, we should all try to do a Google Hangout here some time. It'd be akin to the meetups back in the day.

[Suzanimal]

I don't know why but I thought of Crank Yankers when you chimed in, Suzanimal. :)

:(
I'm not a Crank Yanker unless I'm Franziaed up.:) If Bryan gives me enough warning, I'll keep my drinking in check.


Matter of fact, you know, we should all try to do a Google Hangout here some time. It'd be akin to the meetups back in the day.

I dunno what that is but it sounds fun. I like to hangout. I guess this webcam's gonna come in handy after all. Is this video chat? I thought that's what Skype is. My son's is video, anyway.

Edit:
I just checked out Google Hangout and found out my laptop has a microphone and a camera so I won't have to talk in my kids man cave.:cool:

[Natural Citizen]

:(
I'm not a Crank Yanker unless I'm Franziaed up.:) If Bryan gives me enough warning, I'll keep my drinking in check.

Yeah, I was just messing with you anyway.




I dunno what that is but it sounds fun. I like to hangout. I guess this webcam's gonna come in handy after all. Is this video chat? I thought that's what Skype is. My son's is video, anyway.


Yeah, it's the same thing, I think. Except video calling on your own network.

I've never used Skype, though. I did get hit with close to a thousand dollar bill on my credit card once from Skype. I don't know how that happened but they took it off since it wasn't mine.

Anyway. I suppose see what Bryan is going to do in terms of the site itself. I was just thinking Google Hangouts for regular shits n giggles.

[LibertyEagle]

Good suggestion, we'll backlog it, I'm not sure we have the needed traffic to support it right now.

That said, it is within the power of the OP to set rules of the thread, and they can flag posts that violate those rules to get deleted.

As a site, we have also established the following:

Functional Debate Principles
The site has established debate principles to help achieve productive discourse. Use of these principles is always encouraged and required for dissent to site established efforts that are working toward the advancement of our Mission. The principles are:

* Follow the site's Community Guidelines, taking particular care not to use ad hominem attacks and insults against others. This means don't say "You're [some derogatory term]"
* Debate only in proper context; start a new thread if necessary.
* Present your position in an intellectual manner. Provide reasoned supporting details.
* Maintain a respectful disposition.
* Do not claim something to be true/false without presenting proof.
* Work to get along with other participants. Ask clarifying questions before casting negative assumptions.
* Use extreme care to not misrepresent what you are arguing against. Ask clarifying questions before casting potentially inflammatory misrepresentation.
* Remember to be respectful and work to achieve the purpose of advancing the site's Mission.

Source: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/content.php?1989

A good spin-off topic would be what are good rules for debate.

Thanks.

Except, Bryan, when you have gone to the trouble multiple times and the same person(s) repeat the same crapola over and over again in other threads. At some point, you aren't going to keep posting links and substantiations. Because they don't care. It stands against their agenda.

[Bryan]

Except, Bryan, when you have gone to the trouble multiple times and the same person(s) repeat the same crapola over and over again in other threads. At some point, you aren't going to keep posting links and substantiations. Because they don't care. It stands against their agenda.
Thanks, yes, in such cases one should call for a site issue evaluation on the matter, and help drive the evaluation to a close. Per: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/content.php?1989


Site Issue Evaluations - Managing Contentious Issues
Some issues of debate can become very contentious with two or more strongly opposing views. While it is of great value to have these opposing views debated it is equally problematic for these debates to get carried over to many threads where the same debate points get rehashed over and over.

If a contentious issue is getting rehashed the site staff will call for a focused evaluation of the issue.

After the evaluation, if no conclusions have been reached:

* Future debates should be performed in the evaluation thread.
* Promoting material throughout the site that makes claims that could not be proven in the evaluation is disallowed.



If the evaluation leads to a definitive conclusion:

* Only the evaluation thread should be used to challenge the result of the evaluation, such as with new information becoming available.
* Promoting material throughout the site that counters what has been proven in the evaluation is disallowed.