To EVERYONE who bases the Fair Tax.......

[jasonoliver]

I have been getting flamed for supporting the fair tax. Here are the facts:

1) Ron Paul said he WOULD support the Fair Tax if it came to a vote.
2) The fair tax makes people aware of how much they pay in taxes, instead of taking it from you before you get it, and make you think you get it back when you file.
3) Just bringing the troops home and ending the Income tax will result in a $1 trillion dollar deficit - ENTITLEMENTS are where most spending is.

FY 2008 US budget:

Receipts: 2,662 billion (1246 billion from Personal Income taxes)

Outlays: 2,902 billion (553.9 billion on the US "empire" Department of Defense, homeland security activities Government-wide and funding for international affairs)

You people NEED to look at the facts. If we eliminate the IRS - we could DISBAND THE ENTIRE US MILITARY AND STILL HAVE A $933,000,000,000 DEFICIT!

ENTITLEMENTS compose $1.5 trillion of our Federal Budget and Debt Service is another $250 billion.

THE WELFARE STATE IS MUCH BIGGER THAN THE WARFARE STATE!

[specsaregood]

My BIGGEST problem with the "fairtax" is that it does not guarantee the elimination of the "Income tax". I sure as hell wouldn't want the fairtax, if it only resulted in yet another tax!

I think Ron Paul has said pretty much the same thing. Ending the Income tax should be a REQUIREMENT of the fairtax bill. I doubt Ron Paul would sign it without such a condition.

[jasonoliver]

My BIGGEST problem with the "fairtax" is that it does not guarantee the elimination of the "Income tax". I sure as hell wouldn't want the fairtax, if it only resulted in yet another tax!

I think Ron Paul has said pretty much the same thing. Ending the Income tax should be a REQUIREMENT of the fairtax bill. I doubt Ron Paul would sign it without such a condition.

That IS part of the whole Fair-tax plan. Repealing the 16th amendment and replacing ALL other sources of Federal Revenue with a Value added sales tax on NEW purchases of goods & services.

Fair Tax Act - HR 25, S 1025

[JosephTheLibertarian]

I support the NoTax. :)

[murrayrothbard]

That IS part of the whole Fair-tax plan. Repealing the 16th amendment and replacing ALL other sources of Federal Revenue with a Value added sales tax on NEW purchases of goods & services.

Fair Tax Act - HR 25, S 1025

Which of course will require a massive, instrusive bureauacracy (ie IRS) to monitor all sales (including what you pay your babysitter). Would only get worse after the massive black market develops. There is no enforcement method except the tyrannical measures of banning cash and forcing all electronic transactions. Screw the FairTax.

[InRonWeTrust]

I love the fair tax.

[zeegrim]

I support the NoTax. :)

Totally agree! NoTax!

[jasonoliver]

I support the NoTax. :)

I like the NoTax too......

But, how can we ever get elected by proposing to ELIMINATE SOCIAL SECURITY AND MEDICARE.......which is ESSENTIAL if you want the NOTAX!

Socialist Insecurity is a way of life in America, and very hard to get rid of!

[jasonoliver]

Totally agree! NoTax!

You can have that........Just convince 51% of voters to REPEAL Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, etc, etc, etc....

We could fund the FedGov on tariffs & excises with about $100 billion. The gov would then only do what is authorized in the Constitution BUT we would have to cut off people who are dependant on these programs.

[FreeTraveler]

Taxation = Theft

Any Questions?

[jasonoliver]

Taxation = Theft

Any Questions?

While that is a Pure Libertarian position.....even Ron Paul isn't that extreme.

Ron Paul said he will not put old people out into the street.

[castor]

First off, I am VERY opposed to the fair tax for MANY reasons.

Second, I would like you to show your evidence of Ron Paul supporting the fair tax.



Strangely absent from the list of co-sponsors of H.R. 25 is Congressman Ron Paul(R-TX). Representative Paul has consistently been named the "taxpayers' friend." If the FairTax proposal was as friendly to taxpayers as its proponents say it is, I would expect Congressman Paul's name to be first on the list of co-sponsors.


But even if he did support it, which he doesn't, I would still be very much against it. I don't just blindly follow my candidate choice. I read and think for myself. I am willing to make very minor concessions, but so far with Ron Paul I've only had to make 2. But I will still gladly give him my vote because he knows his shit, is honoest, and has integrity.

[NewEnd]

Second, I would like you to show your evidence of Ron Paul supporting the fair tax.


I was surprised to hear Ron PAul supportign a broad, sweeping 26% percent tax too.

[murrayrothbard]

Ron Paul said he will not put old people out into the street.

How could he? He's not running for dictator.

[Bradley in DC]

Dr. Paul endorsed a similar idea in 1988 as preferable to the income tax.

[jasonoliver]

First off, I am VERY opposed to the fair tax for MANY reasons.

Second, I would like you to show your evidence of Ron Paul supporting the fair tax.

But even if he did support it, which he doesn't, I would still be very much against it. I don't just blindly follow my candidate choice. I read and think for myself. I am willing to make very minor concessions, but so far with Ron Paul I've only had to make 2. But I will still gladly give him my vote because he knows his shit, is honoest, and has integrity.

EVIDENCE: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qI5lC4Z_T80

[jasonoliver]

How could he? He's not running for dictator.

As Chief Executive Ron Paul COULD immediately END Social Security, and all other Socialist Programs based on the 9th and 10th Amendments.

Ron Paul could end them based upon his oath to uphold the Constitution

[jasonoliver]

How could he? He's not running for dictator.

As President Ron Paul could unilaterally End the War on Drugs based upon Amendment 9 and 10 of the Constitution.

He could instruct the Attorney General to not enforce drug laws, and pardon all non-violent drug offenders UNILATERALLY without Congress.

[zeegrim]

You can have that........Just convince 51% of voters to REPEAL Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, etc, etc, etc....

We could fund the FedGov on tariffs & excises with about $100 billion. The gov would then only do what is authorized in the Constitution BUT we would have to cut off people who are dependant on these programs.

No programs would be repealed just like that, they would be phased out. Stop taxing social security while young people are allowed to save and invest on their own. people dependent on social security wouldn't be cut off, with the money we save from not spreading the military thin, not giving out subsidies, etc. we'd have some money left over to spend on the dependents.

To me, fairtax is just another way of ensuring the government remain big. Whether you get the income tax or the fair tax, they're both aimed to allow govt. to fund our wrong foreign policies, war on drugs, etc.

And yes, Ron Paul has said he would be in support of it, but he went further to say we can do without it. I take it as him understanding that the fairtax isn't the best choice.

[castor]

EVIDENCE: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qI5lC4Z_T80


This is not evidence that he supports it, as I said he would not co sponsor it. What he says in this video is that he would vote for it (provided it got rid of taxes on income and property.) The fair tax is just a more visible form of the income tax. (and it would be legal if voted in) The income tax is very shady.

So I agree with him on this in priciple that its an improvement over the income tax. In practice I think it has potential to be more agressive and harmful to lower class citizens.

As a fiscal conservative, this kind of tax is an abomination to me. If the income tax was a turd, the fair tax would be a turd with a cute hat on top.

[castor]

Here is a letter I found from Ron Paul on the matter.



Thank you for contacting my office regarding the FAIR TAX. I agree with you that massive tax reform is needed in this country. More specifically, I agree with the provisions of the FAIR TAX which repeal income, payroll, and estate taxes.

As you may know, it’s not easy for me to advocate any new tax! However, I certainly think a sales tax is better than an income tax- PROVIDED the income tax is truly eliminated. I would hate to see America end up with both a national sales tax and an income tax, much like socialist European countries.

However, the real key to tax reform is dramatically reduced spending by the federal government. Until the government spends far less, taxes (in whatever form) will remain too high. While I certainly support eliminating the income tax, I do not want to see it replaced with a high national sales tax which attempts to collect the same amount of revenue. Spending is the real problem.

Please understand that we share wide areas of agreement on tax issues. I will continue to consider the Americans for Fair Taxation plan. Proponents of real tax reform (whether they support a national sales tax, flat tax, or other plan) must unite in their efforts to eliminate the present unworkable income tax structure.

Sincerely,

Ron Paul

[Goldwater Conservative]

Outlays: 2,902 billion (553.9 billion on the US "empire" Department of Defense, homeland security activities Government-wide and funding for international affairs)


Correct, but spending on the Iraq and Afghanistan occupations are off-budget appropriations. If I recall the most recent figures correctly, they total an additional $150 billion or so a year.

[peruvianRP]

I support the Unfairtax

[Kregener]

Strangely absent from the list of co-sponsors of H.R. 25 is Congressman Ron Paul(R-TX). Representative Paul has consistently been named the "taxpayers' friend." If the FairTax proposal was as friendly to taxpayers as its proponents say it is, I would expect Congressman Paul's name to be first on the list of co-sponsors.

The Fair Tax Fraud - By Laurence M. Vance (http://www.mises.org/story/1814)

[steph3n]

That IS part of the whole Fair-tax plan. Repealing the 16th amendment and replacing ALL other sources of Federal Revenue with a Value added sales tax on NEW purchases of goods & services.

Fair Tax Act - HR 25, S 1025

I have to ask however, have you read the HR 25 in entirety? It is a seriously convoluted plan that carries much unneeded worthless overhead and could be modified in such a manner that would kill many small businesses as well.

[CCTelander]

Taxation = Theft

Any Questions?

QFT

[Scaryclouds]

As Chief Executive Ron Paul COULD immediately END Social Security, and all other Socialist Programs based on the 9th and 10th Amendments.

There is no way that is going to happen. Absolutely positively no way he is going to cut off SS for those already receiving it, if he did he would be lynched. And really I would be against it also, because many of the people who are receiving SS are entitled to it (they did put their money into the system) and have become at least partially dependent on SS. However I do believe Ron Paul at some point in his presidency will allow people to opt-out of SS, Medicaid, Medicare. Perhaps even cut off benefits for the very young (probably those who have yet to work a day in their lives).

[steph3n]

There is no way that is going to happen. Absolutely positively no way he is going to cut off SS for those already receiving it, if he did he would be lynched. And really I would be against it also, because many of the people who are receiving SS are entitled to it (they did put their money into the system) and have become at least partially dependent on SS. However I do believe Ron Paul at some point in his presidency will allow people to opt-out of SS, Medicaid, Medicare. Perhaps even cut off benefits for the very young (probably those who have yet to work a day in their lives).

I agree, people have had this money STOLEN from them their entire lives! The government has to live up to the responsibilities it burdened itself with even if unconstitutional simply because they stole it from people for so long. The irresponsible politicians spending the SS funds should be tried for theft AND fraud!

[Paulitician]

To me it depends. I'm not for a Fair Tax nor am I against it. It depends whether it's faster, easier and less disruptive to have Fair Tax or to have no income tax and cut. I would have to know exactly how they are implemented to say which I'm more for and which I'm more against. As long as both cut the size of government as a symptom, they're viable policies to me.

[Minuteman]

I will support no tax that makes taxation of ones labor legal.

[SovereignMN]

The big problems I have with the "Fair Tax" is:

1) It would still require a government bureaucracy to monitor the sales of all US businesses to ensure compliance.
2) It would REALLY hurt the economy because a sales tax would be a disincentive to spend. Instead of going to Best Buy and buying a tv for $1000 (and paying 35% in sales taxes) you will instead go to the garage sale down the street and buy a used tv tax free. What will happen is that all of America will become one big flea market, sales of new products will fall which means layoffs will increase, etc.

[Ragnar]

Hi Jason,

I don't think you understand exactly what Ron Paul has said regarding the elimination of the income tax. He's never claimed (per my knowledge) that we could eliminate the income tax and "make up" the shortfall by eliminating the Department of Defense.

What Ron Paul HAS said is that if the income tax were eliminated, the government would still have revenues approximately equal to those of the year 2000. (He made this statement on the Jay Leno show, for example.)

So, the implication is that if the government ratcheted back spending to about where things were at in the year 2000, we could eliminate the income tax and still manage to run things fairly normally.

[Ragnar]

The fair tax is just a more visible form of the income tax. (and it would be legal if voted in) The income tax is very shady.

Castor:

The visibility of sales taxes (like the "fair tax") depends heavily on how retailers deal with it. For example, do you know off the top of your head how much tax there is on a gallon of gas? Probably not, because the price posted at the pump INCLUDES all the taxes already.

I lived in Germany for a year or so, and they had something like an 18% sales tax when I was there (about 20 years ago). But the products on the shelf showed the TOTAL price. So people were a bit insulated from it, and weren't really slapped in the face with the tax each time they bought something.

[Ragnar]

That IS part of the whole Fair-tax plan. Repealing the 16th amendment and replacing ALL other sources of Federal Revenue with a Value added sales tax on NEW purchases of goods & services.

Fair Tax Act - HR 25, S 1025

Jason,

Can you provide me with some text from HR25 saying that the 16th Amendment would be repealed?

Also, how long do you think it would take for the ratification process to occur? I'm very skeptical of implementing a national sales tax and then waiting for years while the ratification takes place! What's to keep the politicians from "trying hard" for about six years and then just giving up?