Former Vegan girl made 2 critical mistakes that was destroying her health

[farreri]

An article was posted here (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?491732-A-Former-Vegan-Confesses-How-Veganism-Was-Destroying-Her-Health) about a girl who's health was being destroyed from going on a vegan diet

The article argues that a vegan diet is not suitable for "many" people and this is why that poor girl's health failed so quickly on it even though she claimed to have done the diet right.

However, she actually wasn't doing the vegan diet right. She made 2 critical mistakes on it.


HER FIRST MISTAKE

Everyone who knows anything about a vegan diet knows that you need to supplement with B12. From her own words in the article, it's clear that she wasn't supplementing with B12 properly.


"When the doctor first told me that I had numerous vitamin and mineral deficiencies...my B12 was so low she wanted to give me an injection immediately"


HER SECOND MISTAKE

The second mistake she made is actually very common for vegans to make, especially vegan girls. Read the rest of the symptoms she was experiencing in that article and see if you can guess what that common mistake was. Psst, it shouldn't be too hard since I just gave you a very big hint!


--- dannno guessed correctly (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?492218-Former-Vegan-girl-made-2-critical-mistakes-that-was-destroying-her-health&p=6171438&viewfull=1#post6171438).

This girl Tasha's second critical mistake on her vegan diet was she wasn't eating enough food and became deficient in multiple nutrients because she was calorie restricting.

[presence]

in these modern times

how was b12 available in the past to vegans but not now?

[Chester Copperpot]

An article was posted here (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?491732-A-Former-Vegan-Confesses-How-Veganism-Was-Destroying-Her-Health) about a girl who's health was being destroyed from going on a vegan diet

The article argues that a vegan diet is not suitable for "many" people and this is why that poor girl's health failed so quickly on it even though she claimed to have done the diet right.

However, she actually wasn't doing the vegan diet right. She made 2 critical mistakes on it.


HER FIRST MISTAKE

Everyone who knows anything about a vegan diet knows that in these modern times you need to supplement with B12. From her own words in the article, it's clear that she wasn't supplementing with B12 properly.



She was supplementing with B12 properly.. I told you, you needed to read past the first sentence

from the article viz:


“You see,” she concluded, “for many, if not most, people a totally plant based diet is not a good thing. It obviously is not working for you and that is nothing to be ashamed of. The body has evolved to utilize meat efficiently and healthfully, not tablets or pills. You’ve been taking B12 supplements for years, and you’ve been trying to take iron supplements for weeks, and they haven’t been utilized by your body at all. Supplements are a very poor substitute for whole foods. Taking medication is not the best option and it is not necessary; you could almost certainly regain your health on a balanced diet. It is my recommendation that you try that.”

So she was taking B12 for years, its just that her body was not absorbing nor assimilating it.
Now excuse me while I have a can of sardines. Best source of B-12 anyone can get.

[farreri]

how was b12 available in the past to vegans but not now?
Since it has no bearing on the topic at hand, I edited that part out. Google it if you want to know.

[RJB]

I'm guessing your second point is the iron deficiency.

[farreri]

She was supplementing with B12 properly..
Obviously not!!!


"my B12 was so low she wanted to give me an injection immediately"



So she was taking B12 for years, its just that her body was not absorbing nor assimilating it.
What brand of B12 was she taking and how much of it?

[farreri]

I'm guessing your second point is the iron deficiency.
Well, that's one of the results of what her second mistake will cause.

[Chester Copperpot]

Obviously not!!!





What brand of B12 was she taking and how much of it?

youre delusional. You cant accept the fact that for some people a vegan diet is not healthy. If it works for you and others thats great.. nobody is trying to make you change... why you feel the need to push your ideals on everybody else boggles my mind..

if your diet is dependent on the body absorbing synthetic supplements then I know its not the kind of diet I need. Maybe this girl would have done fine on a pescatarian diet. a couple cans of sardines a week would have probably taken care of her troubles.

[farreri]

Some people just don't want to accept the truth.

[presence]

Since it has no bearing on the topic at hand, I edited that part out. Google it if you want to know.

I expressed genuine interest in a subject that you are apparently posing as an expert on. humour me.

do you take a methyl or cyano cobalamin supplement? which and why?

what is your preferred iron?

[dannno]

When I was vegetarian, I ate fish about once a month, usually raw.. every few months I would eat something like buffalo burgers, or maybe turkey on thanksgiving.

I cooked with a cast-iron skillet often to get more iron in my diet, and I supplemented B-12.

That was one of the things that bothered me about being vegetarian, was the need to supplement B-12. It wasn't a huge make or break thing, but when I went paleo and felt better and still was able to discern between natural, healthy foods and not have to worry as much about supplementing (besides vitamin D if ur not getting enough sun), I knew I'd found the right diet.

[farreri]

I expressed genuine interest in a subject that you are apparently posing as an expert on. humour me.
Ask after someone guesses the girl's second mistake on her vegan diet.


do you take a methyl or cyano cobalamin supplement? which and why?
The cheaper cyano from a trusted supplement company because I doubt I eat enough animal products to give me enough B12. And the cyano B12 I take works as proved by my blood tests.


what is your preferred iron?
Nonheme iron from plant sources.

[presence]

Ask after someone guesses the girl's second mistake on her vegan diet.

it would probably help if you cited your OP

[farreri]

When I was vegetarian, I ate fish about once a month, usually raw.. every few months I would eat something like buffalo burgers, or maybe turkey on thanksgiving.

I cooked with a cast-iron skillet often to get more iron in my diet, and I supplemented B-12.

That was one of the things that bothered me about being vegetarian, was the need to supplement B-12. It wasn't a huge make or break thing, but when I went paleo and felt better and still was able to discern between natural, healthy foods and not have to worry as much about supplementing (besides vitamin D if ur not getting enough sun), I knew I'd found the right diet.
Hate to break it to you, but livestock are given B12 shots, or feed supplemented with B12.

[farreri]

it would probably help if you cited your OP
I did and I just bolded the link to make it stand out easier.

[dannno]

Hate to break it to you, but livestock are given B12 shots, or feed supplemented with B12.

I like wild, grass fed and pastured animals that don't require a lot of special supplements.

[Isaac Bickerstaff]

Hate to break it to you, but livestock are given B12 shots, or feed supplemented with B12.

Only if they are being fed a diet that they are not suited for.

[William Tell]

how was b12 available in the past to vegans but not now?

Kinda shows veganism is not the natural diet, doesn't it?

[farreri]

I like wild, grass fed and pastured animals that don't require a lot of special supplements.
But they still are being supplemented, so there's no need to feel bothered that you had to supplement with B12 when you were a vegetarian. I rather take a cheap B12 supplement than slaughter more animals than necessary.

[farreri]

Kinda shows veganism is not the natural diet, doesn't it?
So? What's that have to do with the point of my thread? The girl's health didn't fail because she wasn't eating a natural diet.

[Chester Copperpot]

So? What's that have to do with the point of my thread? The girl's health didn't fail because she wasn't eating a natural diet.

yes, the girl health failed because she wasnt eating a natural diet for her.

[farreri]

yes, the girl health failed because she wasnt eating a natural diet for her.
Actually there's some truth to that, but not in the way you think. ;)

[Isaac Bickerstaff]

But they still are being supplemented, so there's no need to feel bothered that you had to supplement with B12 when you were a vegetarian. I rather take a cheap B12 supplement than slaughter more animals than necessary.

Do you have any idea how many animals are murdered and never utilized to protect a commercial vegetable plot?

[RJB]

Do you have any idea how many animals are murdered and never utilized to protect a commercial vegetable plot?

I ran a trap line for farmers and can attest to that.

[RJB]

Kinda shows veganism is not the natural diet, doesn't it?

I wonder what an all natural vegan Eskimo would have lived on 100 years ago.

[Isaac Bickerstaff]

Most likely they hunted walrus for the contents of their stomachs, but discarded the carcass as eating it would be cruel.:rolleyes:

[William Tell]

Most likely they hunted walrus for the contents of their stomachs, but discarded the carcass as eating it would be cruel.:rolleyes:
This.

[Chester Copperpot]

Do you have any idea how many animals are murdered and never utilized to protect a commercial vegetable plot?

Could you expound on this? Ive never heard of this.

[presence]

Could you expound on this? Ive never heard of this.

farmers can defend crops against wildlife without regular hunting permits and there is no obligation to use the meat

adults babies, doesn't matter... in the field shoot it dead

in my valley alone about a half dozen black bear are killed each year to protect less than a square mile of corn.

[farreri]

Don't forget the topic of the thread!

[Chester Copperpot]

farmers can defend crops against wildlife without regular hunting permits and there is no obligation to use the meat

adults babies, doesn't matter... in the field shoot it dead

in my valley alone about a half dozen black bear are killed each year to protect less than a square mile of corn.

oh i never knew about that.. so basically youre saying that even all vegan diets contribute to cruelty to animals...

[CPUd]

Most likely they hunted walrus for the contents of their stomachs, but discarded the carcass as eating it would be cruel.:rolleyes:

The natives a bit further south used to hunt moose; they would eat the contents of the rumen, which was mostly grass humans couldn't otherwise eat. The rumen breaks it down enough for humans to digest. They also had 1,000 uses for the fat.

[dannno]

farmers can defend crops against wildlife without regular hunting permits and there is no obligation to use the meat

adults babies, doesn't matter... in the field shoot it dead

in my valley alone about a half dozen black bear are killed each year to protect less than a square mile of corn.

Every time they turn the soil, potentially hundreds of small animals/rodents are killed, more if it is a very large plot. Plus all the animals killed when the land was cleared, and all the animals that won't live because they don't have a habitat.

Vegans kill a larger quantity of animals eating grains than paleos do eating grass fed beef.


But they still are being supplemented, so there's no need to feel bothered that you had to supplement with B12 when you were a vegetarian. I rather take a cheap B12 supplement than slaughter more animals than necessary.

[presence]

oh so thats why the ravens and vultures circle when they plough!

[farreri]

On topic, please.

[dannno]

On topic, please.

Why are you so intent on avoiding this? You are the one that brought up taking B12 as being better than slaughtering more animals unnecessarily. It's really not that far "off topic" and I'm pretty sure the OP doesn't mind (edit: oops I guess this is your thread.. but I'll still judge you for avoiding)

[farreri]

Why are you so intent on avoiding this? You are the one that brought up taking B12 as being better than slaughtering more animals unnecessarily. It's really not that far "off topic" and I'm pretty sure the OP doesn't mind.
Start another thread if you want to discuss that.

Did you figure out the 2nd mistake that former vegan girl made?

[dannno]

Well it seems pretty clear from the article that another mistake she made was not eating or supplementing vitamin K2, but then there is also the issue of iron.. not sure if either of those are the big second mistake that girls especially have a hard time with, I know girls lose a lot of iron on a monthly basis.. but that has already been mentioned several times. K2 wasn't mentioned, but I don't know why girls would have a harder time with that then vegan guys.

The doctor mentioned
vitamin A, taurine, retinol, beta carotene, vitamin D, omega fatty acids

[farreri]

Well it seems pretty clear from the article that another mistake she made was not eating or supplementing vitamin K2
Why would a vegan need to supplement with K2 when vegans get way more Vitamin K than meat eaters?


The doctor mentioned...vitamin D
If she was low in D (not uncommon for vegans and most people in general in the U.S.), then she was making 3 critical mistakes.

[dannno]

Do you think she wasn't eating enough food?

[Chester Copperpot]

Every time they turn the soil, potentially hundreds of small animals/rodents are killed, more if it is a very large plot. Plus all the animals killed when the land was cleared, and all the animals that won't live because they don't have a habitat.

Vegans kill a larger quantity of animals eating grains than paleos do eating grass fed beef.

oh wow.. I never knew that either.. so basically just the act of tilling the soil kills animals... damn and the hunting is on TOP of this... thats completely crazy that a vegan diet would kill more animals than an animal based diet... I dont think many vegans are aware of this... If they were they might switch to eating meat.

We have to let EVERYONE know about this!

[farreri]

Do you think she wasn't eating enough food?
Dannno gets it!

Her second critical mistake was she wasn't eating enough on her vegan diet and that helped led to her health falling apart.

[dannno]

Dannno gets it!

Her second critical mistake was she wasn't eating enough on her vegan diet and that helped led to her health falling apart.
..

Of course, I never questioned why I was constantly hungry. Why 2 veggie burgers, a giant raw vegetable salad, and a bowl of nuts, couldn’t keep me full longer than 2 hours. It was exhausting, physically painful, and tedious trying to keep myself fed

[dannno]

Also about the cows and B12 injections..

Cows get their B12 from cobalt found while eating greens in the pasture.

Some soil is deficient in cobalt, according to studies, but MOST cattle are deficient in eating healthy grass, fed grains, and would thus need B12 supplementation.

I don't think grass fed cattle would need these injections unless the soil is extremely deficient in cobalt, which exists in some places but I don't think is normal.

I think production is higher in places where there is healthy bacteria in the soil.

[farreri]

..
constantly hungry + low in iron = wasn't eating enough

[Chester Copperpot]

constantly hungry + low in iron = wasn't eating enough

she could have eaten tons of food and she still would have died from malabsorption of synthetic B-12. Thank goodness she had animal flesh as an option to save her life.

[dannno]

Also about the cows and B12 injections..

Cows get their B12 from cobalt found while eating greens in the pasture.

Some soil is deficient in cobalt, according to studies, but MOST cattle are deficient in eating healthy grass, fed grains, and would thus need B12 supplementation.

I don't think grass fed cattle would need these injections unless the soil is extremely deficient in cobalt, which exists in some places but I don't think is normal.

I think production is higher in places where there is healthy bacteria in the soil.

I think a lot of cattle ranchers take the grass from their pastures and turn it into hay instead of letting the cows in the pasture, eat the grass, stomp the soil, poop in the soil and create healthy soil for next year.

Bison certainly didn't need B12 injections.

[farreri]

she could have eaten tons of food and she still would have died from malabsorption of synthetic B-12.
I take synthetic B12 and it raises my levels. Vegan Durianrider takes synthetic B12 and it raises his levels. There a dozen other vegan youtubers like him who take synthetic B12 and they show their tests which shows it raises their levels. Tasha didn't have an absorption problem with B12. Either she had a problem with not taking enough of that supplement, or she accidentally bought a shoddy brand.

You just can't get over the fact that she did her vegan diet wrong. Fyi, personal responsibility is a tenet of Libertarianism.

"Individuals should be free to make choices for themselves and to accept responsibility for the consequences of the choices they make."
https://www.lp.org/platform#1.0

[Jamesiv1]

Some people just want the truth.
Some people can't handle the truth.

[farreri]

Some people can't handle the truth.
It's true. Some people can't handle that she was doing her vegan diet wrong.

[dannno]

Some people can't handle the truth.

I don't really mind if ferreri promotes vegetarianism, pescatariansim, plant-centric diets, veganism, whatever.. It's all potentially much better than the SAD if done correctly, with the right supplements and a bit of effort.. but the fact is most people really aren't willing to put in that effort to educate themselves and get all the right supplements and make sure they are getting enough of everything they need. Even with all the effort I had put into it, as much as it benefited me for quite some time I still didn't feel it was optimal once I switched to a paleo-centric diet.

What I have an issue with is that they attack all 'meat based' diets as they call them as being unheatlhy when I see paleo-centric diets as Vegetarian 2.0 - it also takes a lot less effort to be paleo. All you have to do is learn what grains and starches are, what items have a lot of them and largely avoid them or eat them in moderate amounts on the whole. Then go for some good vegetables, greens, coconut oil, grass-fed butter, some wild, grass-fed or pastured meats, fish, shellfish, eggs, bone-in roasts and make sure to eat some berries and a little fruit... maybe some nuts.

[farreri]

Even with all the effort I had put into it, as much as it benefited me for quite some time I still didn't feel it was optimal once I switched to a paleo-centric diet.
Because from the differences you mentioned, better energy and muscle tone, you were probably making the same mistake Tasha did on your plant diet.


What I have an issue with is that they attack all 'meat based' diets as they call them as being unheatlhy when I see paleo-centric diets as Vegetarian 2.0 - it also takes a lot less effort to be paleo.
The basic effort for plant based diets:

1) take B12
2) take Vitamin D (as most meat eaters need to do too.)
3) don't under eat

[Chester Copperpot]

I take synthetic B12 and it raises my levels. Vegan Durianrider takes synthetic B12 and it raises his levels. There a dozen other vegan youtubers like him who take synthetic B12 and they show their tests which shows it raises their levels. Tasha didn't have an absorption problem with B12. Either she had a problem with not taking enough of that supplement, or she accidentally bought a shoddy brand.

You just can't get over the fact that she did her vegan diet wrong. Fyi, personal responsibility is a tenet of Libertarianism.

"Individuals should be free to make choices for themselves and to accept responsibility for the consequences of the choices they make."
https://www.lp.org/platform#1.0

Its most likely she has an issue with her intrinsic factor and doesn't absorb synthetic B12 well. You can take all the supplements you want.. some people just don't absorb them well. What works for you doesn't necessarily work for others. If your diet requires a bunch of synthetics, then I would consider that there is a problem with such a diet plan.

Your synthetic B12 will never be better than B12 found naturally in food regardless of what a blood test shows. The B12 found naturally in food is a complete vitamin; the synthetic is a fractionated vitamin.

[Isaac Bickerstaff]

Start another thread if you want to discuss that.

Did you figure out the 2nd mistake that former vegan girl made?

She avoided animal-derived, fat-soluble vitamins.
Synthetic D is a neurotoxin that makes people hyper, angry, and morbidly obtuse.

[farreri]

Its most likely she has an issue with her intrinsic factor and doesn't absorb synthetic B12 well. You can take all the supplements you want.. some people just don't absorb them well.
Your friend durianrider claims he has a problem with intrinsic factor and has to take B12 shots and it works for him, so no logical reason to believe it wouldn't work for Tasha if she really has that problem.


If your diet requires a bunch of synthetics, then I would consider that there is a problem with such a diet plan.
How many is a bunch?


Your synthetic B12 will never be better than B12 found naturally in food regardless of what a blood test shows. The B12 found naturally in food is a complete vitamin; the synthetic is a fractionated vitamin.
You should preface statements like this with "It is my opinion that..." unless you have scientific proof of some of your questionable claims.

[farreri]

She avoided animal-derived, fat-soluble vitamins.
Got to love humor!


Synthetic D is a neurotoxin that makes people hyper, angry, and morbidly obtuse.
Dannno be careful, Isaac Bickerstaff says you're going to become hyper, angry, and morbidly obtuse.

[Jamesiv1]

It's true. Some people can't handle that she was doing her vegan diet wrong.
I was just wise-cracking on Tom Cruise and Jack Nicholson :)

Great movie.

[Wooden Indian]

I'm mostly vegetarian but eat a little sashimi here and there and dig on eggs a couple of times a week. I don't care for cow milk but will drink goat milk more often once I get my goat here. Anyway, my point was going to be that after a year on this"diet" I don't feel any better or worse and only lost a little at first and leveled off. I felt and looked better when I ate meats and cut the pasta and cereals out. I just don't like the taste of meat anymore.

[Chester Copperpot]

Your friend durianrider claims he has a problem with intrinsic factor and has to take B12 shots and it works for him, so logical reason to believe it wouldn't work for Tasha if she really has that problem.
She obviously was taking B12 tablets and not getting injections. You are correct that injections probably would have sufficed for her, however its still not a complete vitamin like the B12 found in food. The fact that this girl solved her problem by eating meat shows the B12 in the food is of a superior nature than those cheap tablets you say you use.

How many is a bunch?
Depends on the nutrients involved, but in this case of B12, one nutrient not being absorbed is enough to kill this lady.

You should preface statements like this with "It is my opinion that..." unless you have scientific proof of some of your questionable claims.
Its a fact. The fact remains this girl was able to assimilate Vitamin B12 when she ate it naturally in meat. She was unable to assimilate B12 from tablets. This proves my claim.
...

[Chester Copperpot]

She avoided animal-derived, fat-soluble vitamins.
Synthetic D is a neurotoxin that makes people hyper, angry, and morbidly obtuse.

Definitely some good nutrition in animal fat. When the animal is raised and fed properly of course.

[Chester Copperpot]

She avoided animal-derived, fat-soluble vitamins.
Synthetic D is a neurotoxin that makes people hyper, angry, and morbidly obtuse.

I havent heard about the neurotoxin thing of synethetic D.. Do you have a link for that?

[farreri]

She obviously was taking B12 tablets and not getting injections. You are correct that injections probably would have sufficed for her, however its still not a complete vitamin like the B12 found in food. The fact that this girl solved her problem by eating meat shows the B12 in the food is of a superior nature than those cheap tablets you say you use.
If she had a problem with her intrinsic factor, how was she able to absorb B12 in meat? The whole purpose of getting a B12 shot is to bypass the digestive track.


Depends on the nutrients involved, but in this case of B12, one nutrient not being absorbed is enough to kill this lady.
Even if true, the article you posted is still misleading trying to blame it all on veganism. At most, the article should warn that a very small number of people who have issues with intrinsic factor need B12 shots to do a vegan diet properly.


Its a fact. The fact remains this girl was able to assimilate Vitamin B12 when she ate it naturally in meat. She was unable to assimilate B12 from tablets. This proves my claim.
You have to know how much and how consistently she was taking B12 supplements (if she was really taking them at all) and then you have to analyze a sample of the brand she was taking to make sure it actually contained the amount of B12 it claimed and wasn't some bunk brand. Otherwise, correlation does not imply causation.

The fact is though, regardless of the B12 issue, her other problems on her vegan diet was her fault. She wasn't eating enough to sustain herself. You at least need to admit to that.

[RJB]

I'd rather enjoy a healthy and delicious steak (fish, egg, etc.) than worry about that mess so I can follow a misguided ideology.


If she had a problem with her intrinsic factor, how was she able to absorb B12 in meat? The whole purpose of getting a B12 shot is to bypass the digestive track.


Even if true, the article you posted is still misleading trying to blame it all on veganism. At most, the article should warn that a very small number of people who have issues with intrinsic factor need B12 shots to do a vegan diet properly.


You have to know how much and how consistently she was taking B12 supplements (if she was really taking them at all) and then you have to analyze a sample of the brand she was taking to make sure it actually contained the amount of B12 it claimed and wasn't some bunk brand. Otherwise, correlation does not imply causation.

The fact is though, regardless of the B12 issue, her other problems on her vegan diet was her fault. She wasn't eating enough to sustain herself. You at least need to admit to that.

[Chester Copperpot]

If she had a problem with her intrinsic factor, how was she able to absorb B12 in meat? The whole purpose of getting a B12 shot is to bypass the digestive track.

.

Thats the difference between getting Vitamin B12 naturally in food, and taking a synthetic supplement.. A natural food vitamin source will have accompanying nutrition that allows absorption and assimilation that the synthetic tablets just dont have. Plus youre getting a full range of vitamin B12 isomers that again synthetic vitamins just do not have.

[RJB]

Thats the difference between getting Vitamin B12 naturally in food, and taking a synthetic supplement.. A natural food vitamin source will have accompanying nutrition that allows absorption and assimilation that the synthetic tablets just dont have. Plus youre getting a full range of vitamin B12 isomers that again synthetic vitamins just do not have.

Admit it Chester, deep inside you really want to eat soy curd and a tasty B12 tablet, but you are too married to the cult of meat. I mean really, why would anyone eat a nice thick delicious, nutritious steak when they can have twice as much bland tofu so devoid of nutrients that you need pills to sustain yourself?

[Chester Copperpot]

Admit it Chester, deep inside you really want to eat soy curd and a tasty B12 tablet, but you are too married to the cult of meat. I mean really, why would anyone eat a nice thick delicious, nutritious steak when they can have twice as much bland tofu so devoid of nutrients that you need pills to sustain yourself?

There are some doctors that believe that vegans dont like meat because they have fucked up digestive systems and that it causes them to be sick or naseous just at the sight or smell of meat. I dont know if thats true. But even If I was predisposed to eating vegetarian I would be at least a pescatarian to take advantage of the nutrients in seafood. Small fish like sardines are incredibly nutritious.

I even know a vegan who wont eat seaweed because he says it looks like an animal.. so I dont know wtf thats about. Some vegans will eat bi-valves because they say they dont have a nervous system.. its really a bit much to keep track of all the variants IMO.

[RJB]

There are some doctors that believe that vegans dont like meat because they have $#@!ed up digestive systems and that it causes them to be sick or naseous just at the sight or smell of meat. I dont know if thats true. But even If I was predisposed to eating vegetarian I would be at least a pescatarian to take advantage of the nutrients in seafood. Small fish like sardines are incredibly nutritious.

I even know a vegan who wont eat seaweed because he says it looks like an animal.. so I dont know wtf thats about. Some vegans will eat bi-valves because they say they dont have a nervous system.. its really a bit much to keep track of all the variants IMO.

I was just kidding above.

My wife is a vegetarian, but she really has never had cravings for meat and thrives very well on it. She is also not militant at all about it.

ETA I also read somewhere that pepsin (the digestive protein enzyme can vary in people by 1000 times.

I definitely don't have her metabolism and do better on a meat and vegetable diet-- I've fine tuned it over my 44 years. I tend to look like a concentration camp survivor if I go too long on a vegan diet.

[farreri]

I'd rather enjoy a healthy and delicious steak (fish, egg, etc.) than worry about that mess so I can follow a misguided ideology.
Dandy, but why are telling me this?


I tend to look like a concentration camp survivor if I go too long on a vegan diet.
Well if you've been paying attention to this thread, don't do what that girl Tasha did on her vegan diet.

[farreri]

Thats the difference between getting Vitamin B12 naturally in food, and taking a synthetic supplement.. A natural food vitamin source will have accompanying nutrition that allows absorption and assimilation that the synthetic tablets just dont have. Plus youre getting a full range of vitamin B12 isomers that again synthetic vitamins just do not have.
Do you have any scientific evidence that people with intrinsic factor issues can absorb B12 in animal foods, but not a B12 tablet? You're free to give your opinion, but since this is a health section, you should take responsibility in making sure what you post is more than just opinion.

Do you acknowledge she wasn't eating enough to sustain her?

[RJB]

Dandy, but why are telling me this?

Because you OPed this thread for discussion, of course.

[farreri]

Because you OPed this thread for discussion, of course.
While you're responding, what's your practice you keep talking about?

[RJB]

While you're responding, what's your practice you keep talking about?

I'm a chiropractor. I was licensed in massage and acupuncture before moving to a different state, but I incorporate those principles into my work. I also teach a martial art that focuses less on techniques but rather keeping the body in the parasympathetic state rather than the fight or flight state so the body can move more freely and relaxed-- This has really changed the way I have viewed people in the last few years.

Also, I don't view my credentials as being proof that I know anything. There are militant vegan chiropractors and militant atkins chiros. For me, its given me years of interacting with patients and seeing how complex we really are. One size does not fit all and that includes everything from body work to (of course) diet.

[farreri]

I'm a chiropractor. I was licensed in massage and acupuncture before moving to a different state, but I incorporate those principles into my work. I also teach a martial art that focuses less on techniques but rather keeping the body in the parasympathetic state rather than the fight or flight state so the body can move more freely and relaxed-- This has really changed the way I have viewed people in the last few years.

Also, I don't view my credentials as being proof that I know anything. There are militant vegan chiropractors and militant atkins chiros. For me, its given me years of interacting with patients and seeing how complex we really are. One size does not fit all and that includes everything from body work to (of course) diet.
Did you have much in the way of nutrition training?

[RJB]

Did you have much in the way of nutrition training?

Yes, a lot more than MDs but less than naturopaths. Ironically, back when I was in school, the main guy who was teaching it, liked a heavily plant based diet. I hear school has changed since then, but as I said "experts" disagree, so it's best to follow what works for you.

Back then, the plant based diet didn't work for me at all, but I was eating a lot of garbage with it. I almost looked like a concentration camp survivor.

One of my favorite books that really changed my life for the better was Williams Wolcott's The Metabolic Typing Diet. It placed me as needing high fats and protein, and it really worked at the time. It gave me new energy and a new life. I needed to rebuild after years of eating garbage.

However, ever since I gave up transfats, HFCS, artificial junk, and stick to healthier foods, I have had better success eating a plant based diets on occasion.

I'm an Eastern Orthodox Christian and we go through lent as vegans as part of the fast. I actually do pretty good. For health reasons I can break the fast anytime, but I don't feel the need to. I do like it when I get to go back to my regular diet. I find a few eggs can keep me sated and energized for five or more hours, where a plant based diet will only do that for an hour or two.

[farreri]

Yes, a lot more than MDs but less than naturopaths. Ironically, back when I was in school, the main guy who was teaching it, liked a heavily plant based diet. I hear school has changed since then, but as I said "experts" disagree, so it's best to follow what works for you.

Back then, the plant based diet didn't work for me at all, but I was eating a lot of garbage with it. I almost looked like a concentration camp survivor.

One of my favorite books that really changed my life for the better was Williams Wolcott's The Metabolic Typing Diet. It placed me as needing high fats and protein, and it really worked at the time. It gave me new energy and a new life. I needed to rebuild after years of eating garbage.

However, ever since I gave up transfats, HFCS, artificial junk, and stick to healthier foods, I have had better success eating a plant based diets on occasion.

I'm an Eastern Orthodox Christian and we go through lent as vegans as part of the fast. I actually do pretty good. For health reasons I can break the fast anytime, but I don't feel the need to. I do like it when I get to go back to my regular diet. I find a few eggs can keep me sated and energized for five or more hours, where a plant based diet will only do that for an hour or two.
Are there any vitamins you recommend people take? Do you take any yourself?

[Chester Copperpot]

Do you have any scientific evidence that people with intrinsic factor issues can absorb B12 in animal foods, but not a B12 tablet? You're free to give your opinion, but since this is a health section, you should take responsibility in making sure what you post is more than just opinion.

Do you acknowledge she wasn't eating enough to sustain her?

I think the circumstances proved what happened. The girl couldnt absorb synthetic nutrients but was able to absorb natural nutrients. It happens all the time..Synthetic nutrients are a poor replacement for real foods.. Even the ones you take are not being absorbed by your system to any extent when compared with real food vitamins. But everybody is different and you could have good stores of B12 in your system, etc.. And we dont know EXACTLY what the cause of her malabsorption was. It could have been the cobalt mineral itself, or her body was unable to convert it to another form that her body needed... There really is more unknown than known in these things but because meat corrected her condition it stands to reason that it was some additional nutrient that wasnt present in the synthetic tablets. Do I know for a fact? No. But modern man's knowledge of nutrition is so niggardly its doubtful doctors would even be able to test for the nutrients in question to know the answer 100%.

If she was hungry all the time she obviously wasnt eating correctly. But if she had gone from a SAD diet to a clean vegan diet its possible her natural inclinations were hard for her to interpret. Her body should have made her hungry for B12 containing foods. Perhaps if she had figured out the problem earlier and sought out a vegetation source for B12 she could have corrected the problem and stayed on her vegan diet. It would be an interesting case to study.

[Suzanimal]

I thought of you, Ferrari. I think I had a vegan dinner.

[Chester Copperpot]

I'm a chiropractor. I was licensed in massage and acupuncture before moving to a different state, but I incorporate those principles into my work. I also teach a martial art that focuses less on techniques but rather keeping the body in the parasympathetic state rather than the fight or flight state so the body can move more freely and relaxed-- This has really changed the way I have viewed people in the last few years.

Also, I don't view my credentials as being proof that I know anything. There are militant vegan chiropractors and militant atkins chiros. For me, its given me years of interacting with patients and seeing how complex we really are. One size does not fit all and that includes everything from body work to (of course) diet.
^^^^
THIS

[farreri]

I think the circumstances proved what happened. The girl couldnt absorb synthetic nutrients but was able to absorb natural nutrients. It happens all the time..
Where do you get it happens all the time? If synthetics didn't work then pharmaceuticals wouldn't work. You're trying to make it out to be something way more complicated than it really is. Supplements are hardly regulated, so how do we know they contain what's claimed? Zippyjuan just posted an article about how Herbal Supplements Are Often Not What They Seem (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?490742-Herbal-Supplements-Are-Often-Not-What-They-Seem). The more logical answer to why this girl's B12 was so low was she wasn't taking enough B12, or she was taking a shoddy brand.


If she was hungry all the time she obviously wasnt eating correctly.
As I've been saying, she did the diet wrong. She needs to take responsibility for her actions.

[farreri]

I thought of you, Ferrari. I think I had a vegan dinner.
OK, well thanks lol

I would say the next time I have fish for dinner I'll think of you, but that might be interpreted wrong. :p

[Yieu]

I am not sure why it seems like there are people who get mad that there are people who simply don't eat meat who do not judge what others eat. Most of the problems with the vegan diet can be solved by having milk, anyway. When I post on the topic of diet, the only point I try to make clear is that all humans can be healthy and well-off without meat, and it is easy to meet your macro and micro nutrients, particularly if you have milk. I don't judge people for eating meat -- that would be weird. But I have seen people who do eat meat get defensive and attack the idea that it can possibly be healthy or easy to go without meat.

[luctor-et-emergo]

I thought of you, Ferrari. I think I had a vegan dinner.

How did your vegan taste ?

[Isaac Bickerstaff]

I havent heard about the neurotoxin thing of synethetic D.. Do you have a link for that?

Admittedly, this will be a case of "your science vs my science" as some will flat out reject the Weston Price Foundation as carnivore cheerleaders. Keep in mind that Weston Price made his conclusions counter to a deeply held pro-vegetarian belief after traveling the world trying in vain to find a healthy vegan society.

"Neurotoxin" may have been too strong of a word, but I was posting from memory of a Sally Fallon lecture.

http://www.westonaprice.org/uncategorized/violent-behavior-a-solution-in-plain-sight/

[Yieu]

I do think that being anti-vegetarian but using vegans as an example will not result in an accurate assessment. There are things from animals that are beneficial, and dairy has a lot of those things. Vegetarians consume dairy, which makes their diet easy to be healthy, whereas it is harder to be vegan (but not impossible if you know what to eat).

[Suzanimal]

OK, well thanks lol

I would say the next time I have fish for dinner I'll think of you, but that might be interpreted wrong. :p

LOL!


How did your vegan taste ?

Delicious. The closer to the bone, the sweeter the meat.

[Chester Copperpot]

Where do you get it happens all the time? If synthetics didn't work then pharmaceuticals wouldn't work. You're trying to make it out to be something way more complicated than it really is. Supplements are hardly regulated, so how do we know they contain what's claimed? Zippyjuan just posted an article about how Herbal Supplements Are Often Not What They Seem (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?490742-Herbal-Supplements-Are-Often-Not-What-They-Seem). The more logical answer to why this girl's B12 was so low was she wasn't taking enough B12, or she was taking a shoddy brand.
Yes, it is possible that the bottle of B12 pills she took contained no B12 at all. She could have had some fraud pulled on her, however I think the more likely explanation is that the B12 that she took was simply not utilized by her body. This does happen all the time. The B12 you take from synthetic tablets is only a sliver of the real B12 found in foods... Many times nutrients cant even be measured properly or the blood serum test isnt an accurate method. It is alot more complicated than science has figured out. Not everybody has problems, not everybody has the same reactions. Sometimes other foods in the diet can compensate for lost vitamins and your body can make the vitamins itself out of accompanying nutrients.. Again, it would be an interesting case study if this girl found a vegetable source of B12 and see if she could have corrected herself. But the synthetic vitamins was not the way to go for her.

As I've been saying, she did the diet wrong. She needs to take responsibility for her actions.
While I have said that her constant hunger means she wasnt eating correctly that doesnt necessarily mean she did veganism "wrong". It can also mean that veganism is wrong for her.

,,..

[Chester Copperpot]

Admittedly, this will be a case of "your science vs my science" as some will flat out reject the Weston Price Foundation as carnivore cheerleaders. Keep in mind that Weston Price made his conclusions counter to a deeply held pro-vegetarian belief after traveling the world trying in vain to find a healthy vegan society.

"Neurotoxin" may have been too strong of a word, but I was posting from memory of a Sally Fallon lecture.

http://www.westonaprice.org/uncategorized/violent-behavior-a-solution-in-plain-sight/

I like Weston Price a lot and I dont doubt the possibility of any synthetic having some bad reaction... ill check out the link

[farreri]

While I have said that her constant hunger means she wasnt eating correctly that doesnt necessarily mean she did veganism "wrong". It can also mean that veganism is wrong for her.
She thought she could sustain herself with large salads. She was doing it wrong. It had nothing to do with veganism.

[farreri]

reject the Weston Price Foundation as carnivore cheerleaders.

http://www.westonaprice.org/uncategorized/violent-behavior-a-solution-in-plain-sight/
They sure seem to be!


Vegetarianism and Nutrient Deficiencies

I decided to go vegetarian when I was 18 and vegan soon after,..... over the next two years my health took a series of blows: my digestion fell apart; fatigue set in; anxiety took hold; and tooth decay overran my entire mouth—a single visit to the dentist yielded a treatment plan that would take the following year to complete. I was a mess, and I didn’t know why. - See more at: http://www.westonaprice.org/health-topics/abcs-of-nutrition/vegetarianism-and-nutrient-deficiencies/#sthash.JcgR60f9.dpuf
I know why, he made the same mistake that Tasha girl made!

[Yieu]

She thought she could sustain herself with large salads. She was doing it wrong. It had nothing to do with veganism.

I think that is the case for most if not all people who say they tried going without meat and encountered difficulties. They didn't know that you can't just eat cereal, potato chips, and salad. There needs to be a variety of beans, nuts, healthy fats, and it works better with dairy.

[farreri]

I think that is the case for most if not all people who say they tried going without meat and encountered difficulties. They didn't know that you can't just eat cereal, potato chips, and salad. There needs to be a variety of beans, nuts, healthy fats, and it works better with dairy.
A lot of vegans mistakenly start eating too many vegetables and not enough starches or fruit.

[farreri]

This guy is a strict vegan like the girl in the OP was, but he doesn't commit the 2 critical mistakes she made and, as you can see, he's flourishing even on a strict low fat plant based diet.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrGz9kIfagc

I took Gold in my weight class in my Brown Belt Masters Division. I've been a Vegan Athlete for over 4+yrs and have never felt better. At almost 43yrs old I feel younger than ever.

[farreri]

It's not just vegans who make the critical mistake that Tasha girl did, but also on any diet, including the inaccurately called "paleo" diet:


I was 32 years old and in what seemed to be the best shape of my life. Except: I hadn't had my period in two years, my weight kept creeping up, I was exhausted all the time, and my sexual appetite was nonexistent. I was baffled. As a holistic nutritionist, I knew my diet and fitness were perfect. After all, I had "gone Paleo" four years prior.

One day, I finally got offline and into a doctor's office. That's when I discovered my alleged healthy lifestyle was actually the reason I'd lost my period and libido. She instructed me to stop my intense exercise regime and start eating more, immediately.

http://www.refinery29.com/paleo-diet-disordered-eating-hormones

[Chester Copperpot]

It's not just vegans who make the critical mistake that Tasha girl did, but also on any diet, including the inaccurately called "paleo" diet:

Well, it seems like a nice healthy dose of cholesterol would do some vegans well. helped this Tasha girl

[farreri]

Well, it seems like a nice healthy dose of cholesterol would do some vegans well. helped this Tasha girl
There actually some truth to that, but not how you think. Riddle time, how does that jui-jitsu guy a couple of posts up get a nice healthy dose of cholesterol after more than 4 years being strict vegan that enabled him to place 1st in his athletic competition against meat eaters, but yet that athletic girl Tasha became so weak on her vegan diet within 3 yrs that she could hardly exercise anymore? You should kinda know the answer, but I want to hear from you how it specifically relates to cholesterol.

[Chester Copperpot]

There actually some truth to that, but not how you think. Riddle time, how does that jui-jitsu guy a couple of posts up get a nice healthy dose of cholesterol after more than 4 years being strict vegan that enabled him to place 1st in his athletic competition against meat eaters, but yet that athletic girl Tasha became so weak on her vegan diet within 3 yrs that she could hardly exercise anymore? You should kinda know the answer, but I want to hear from you how it specifically relates to cholesterol.

i dont care.. i just posted this message to troll you and make you come out of your hiatus... Im glad to see my theory is correct. thanks

[farreri]

i dont care.. i just posted this message to troll you and make you come out of your hiatus... Im glad to see my theory is correct. thanks
Well I'm glad to see you enjoy me posting here dispelling a lot of nutritional myths like this thread where I showed it wasn't veganism that destroyed that girl's health, but that she was doing the diet wrong.

[farreri]

Chester, are you going to show some personal responsibility with you other thread (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?491732-A-Former-Vegan-Confesses-How-Veganism-Was-Destroying-Her-Health) and ask the moderator to delete it, or at least change the title to be accurate since we now know that veganism didn't harm that girl's health, but that she did the diet wrong?

[Chester Copperpot]

Chester, are you going to show some personal responsibility with you other thread (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?491732-A-Former-Vegan-Confesses-How-Veganism-Was-Destroying-Her-Health) and ask the moderator to delete it, or at least change the title to be accurate since we now know that veganism didn't harm that girl's health, but that she did the diet wrong?

Hell no. Me and you have a difference of opinion.. get over it or get a new paid blogging job.

[farreri]

Hell no. Me and you have a difference of opinion
The jury is still out about her and B12 since we don't know what brand she took and how much she was taking--if she really was taking it--but how do you explain her being low in iron?

[Chester Copperpot]

The jury is still out about her and B12 since we don't know what brand she took and how much she was taking--if she really was taking it--but how do you explain her being low in iron?

you didnt read that either huh? She took iron supplements.. her body didnt absorb it.. most people absorb synthetics very poorly. but hey.. if shes a vegan rah rah its all good to you right? lol

[farreri]

She took iron supplements
You're not getting it. Why was her iron low in the first place?

[farreri]

Why was her iron low in the first place?
Chester?

[Isaac Bickerstaff]

You're not getting it. Why was her iron low in the first place?

She didn't eat meat.

[farreri]

She didn't eat meat.
Where does meat get its iron?

[Isaac Bickerstaff]

Where does meat get its iron?

Again with this silly non-sequitur. Where does grass get its iron? Maybe you should just skip any organisms that separate you from your elemental iron and go straight to eating rocks.

[farreri]

Where does grass get its iron?
Soil.

Back to my question, why was her iron low in the first place?

[Isaac Bickerstaff]

Soil.

Back to my question, why was her iron low in the first place?

Why don't you eat dirt?

[farreri]

Why don't you eat dirt?
Probably for the same reasons you don't.

So why was that ex-vegan girl low in iron?

[Isaac Bickerstaff]

Probably for the same reasons you don't.

So why was that ex-vegan girl low in iron?

Asked and answered.

Now, why can't you get your iron from soil if that's where your vegetables get it from?

[farreri]

Asked and answered.
So people can only get iron from meat or soil?


Now, why can't you get your iron from soil if that's where your vegetables get it from?
I never said you couldn't.

[Isaac Bickerstaff]

I never said you couldn't.

Which is why your opinions on nutrition are dangerous.

[farreri]

Which is why your opinions on nutrition are dangerous.
Why? I didn't say I recommend eating soil. But technically, you can get nutrients from eating soil to answer your question.


Geophagia is the practice of eating earth or soil-like substrates

Clay minerals have been reported to have beneficial microbiological effects, such as protecting the stomach against toxins, parasites and pathogens.[23][24] Humans are not able to synthesize vitamin B12 (cobalamin), so geophagia may be a behavioral adaption to obtain it from bacteria in the soil.[25]:195 Mineral content in soil may vary per region, but many contain high levels of calcium, copper, magnesium, iron and zinc that are critical for pregnant women and peasants, as nature typically tends to favor behaviors based on survival.[24][26]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geophagia#Impact_on_health


My question again, so people can only get iron from meat or soil? Vegans can't get iron if they don't eat dirt?

[Isaac Bickerstaff]

Why? I didn't say I recommend eating soil. But technically, you can get nutrients from eating soil to answer your question.



My question again, so people can only get iron from meat or soil? Vegans can't get iron if they don't eat dirt?

At this point I am assuming that I am having a discussion with a middle schooler. It's not your fault, you just haven't been exposed to ninth grade biology class yet. However, even the part of the wikipedia article that you quoted should answer a number of your questions without too much background information. First, the primary reason for eating dirt is microbial. I have no disagreement with this. Microbes are really the only factor of note in the process of making minerals in the soil available for plant and animal use. In fact, after being deprived of the microbes and enzymes available from consumption of animal products, I would recommend that vegans eat dirt, but by no means expect it to be a substitute for real food.

Next, the article acknowledges that mineral makeup of the soil differs from region to region. Once again, I have no problem with this statement. Different soil chemistry houses different microbial populations and creates the wonderful diversity of foods that we have, from regional wines in France, California, etc., to Kefir and cheeses, open vat fermented Belgian beers, dry aged beef, sauerkraut, Viking fermented fish barrels--you get the picture. However, I do take issue with the idea that it is possible for a monogastric creature with hemoglobin to get adequate iron directly from plants or soil. Here's why:

Hemoglobin is amazing from a chemistry perspective. It is this huge (relatively speaking) molecule with a single iron atom at its core. Through the process of animal respiration, the iron atom oxidizes and then sheds the oxygen again on a regular basis. Plants do not have hemoglobin, therefore their iron needs are dramatically different and their makeup reflects this. In order to consume enough iron from plants to satisfy your animal needs, you must consume much more plant matter than your omnivorous digestive system could hold or process--assuming you even have the proper pH and microbial helpers to unlock the iron. A ruminant is well suited to consume large quantities of plant matter and extract what it needs, concentrating the nutrients at usable levels and passing it on to its young or omnivorous/carnivorous species.

Furthermore, since the body is looking for single iron atoms to make hemoglobin, and iron--being a metal--is not likely to be found in soil as single atoms, it needs help. Now plants will include carbolic acid in their exudates to help the microbes in their rhizospheres strip nutrients, including iron, from the rock particles in the soil. However, since much of the iron contained in plant matter is ferredoxin, monogastric animals will still have problems utilizing it without further processing. That processing will happen in the mysterious recesses of a polygastric digestive system. Monogastric animals simply do not have the right digestive pH, microbial populations, or GI length (longer digestive tract means more time to process).

To rely on plants alone for adequate iron will slowly deplete the body of enzymes, and relying on soil for mineral needs is like trying to use boulders in a sand box.

There ya' go. When you get there, I hope this helps with your Biology 101 class.

[farreri]

To rely on plants alone for adequate iron will slowly deplete the body of enzymes, and relying on soil for mineral needs is like trying to use boulders in a sand box.
Um, no. That's not why she was low in iron, or else all vegans would be low in iron. Guess again.

[Isaac Bickerstaff]

You need help, kid. Seriously. Get yourself checked out. You are dangerously low in something.

[farreri]

You need help, kid. Seriously. Get yourself checked out. You are dangerously low in something.
If I were you, I'd refrain from the insults since I've given the answer why she got low in iron on her vegan diet. I'm just seeing if people are actually paying attention.