Americans Really Don't Like Immigration, New Survey Finds

[Brian4Liberty]

Americans Really Don't Like Immigration, New Survey Finds (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-03-07/americans-really-don-t-like-immigration-new-survey-finds)
Sixty-one percent say it jeopardizes the nation.
By Peter Coy


Sixty-one percent of Americans agree that "continued immigration into the country jeopardizes the United States," according to a new poll commissioned by management consulting firm A.T. Kearney that revealed pessimism across a wide range of issues.

The degree of concern is remarkable considering that the question was about all immigration, including the legal kind. Even Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump has said he supports legal immigration into the U.S.
...
A belief that immigration jeopardizes the U.S. was common across age groups, although highest among baby boomers (65 percent) and lowest among millennials (55 percent). By education, it was highest among those with just a high school education or some college (65 percent), and by region it was highest in the South, including Texas (66 percent).
...
More: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-03-07/americans-really-don-t-like-immigration-new-survey-finds

[Brian4Liberty]

This is probably the single most important issue that has propelled Trump up to this point (perhaps equal to his celebrity/billionaire status). It's an issue that nearly every other politician and candidate was ignoring.

[puppetmaster]

I dont. Not until we fix our house and then we may be able to assimilate

[r3volution 3.0]

The people are distracted by a shiny object, unaware of the real problems - as usual.

[Ronin Truth]

If we weren't already 100+% over full on population now, I'd probably have a better attitude about immigration.

[timosman]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MrAAOMLA50

[AuH20]

If we become like the UK, it's over. The UK may as well be occupied territory. There is no allegiance to the old ways of British thought.

[AuH20]

If we weren't already 100+% over full on population now, I'd probably have a better attitude about immigration.

if we weren't saddled with enormous debt locally and federally, while treating immigrants better than our veterans.

[r3volution 3.0]

If we become like the UK, it's over. The UK may as well be occupied territory. There is no allegiance to the old ways of British thought.

The UK began its descent into an Orwellian hellscape long before mass immigration.

[AuH20]

The UK began its descent into an Orwellian hellscape long before mass immigration.

Mass Immigration signals the final stage of the descent.

[r3volution 3.0]

Mass Immigration signals the final stage of the descent.

The only thing it signals to me is the reduction of politics to a battle between cultural-left socialists and cultural-right socialists.

Shall tikka masala or bangers and mash be the national dish of the aforementioned Orwellian hellscape...

[AuH20]

The only thing it signals to me is that the only political opposition to the ruling cultural-left socialists are cultural-right socialists.

There are no more anti-socialists.

Forced integration via subsidy and birthright benefits. This is not an organic migration. An organic migration without any artificial magnets would probably be beneficial to the United States in the long run. But this is simply population displacement.

[r3volution 3.0]

Forced integration via subsidy and birthright benefits. This is not an organic migration. An organic migration without any artificial magnets would probably be beneficial to the United States in the long run. But this is simply population displacement.

So why are you calling for restricting immigration, rather than eliminating the subsidies and benefits?

[AuH20]

So why are you calling for restricting immigration, rather than eliminating the subsidies and benefits?

I've always called for the elimination of subsidies first, but the terrorists in the black robes don't agree. The black robed terrorists tell us that we must serve the illegals on hand and foot or else.

[r3volution 3.0]

I've always called for the elimination of subsidies first, but the terrorists in the black robes don't agree. The black robed terrorists tell us that we must serve the illegals on hand and foot or else.

Are they going to agree to restricting immigration?

[AuH20]

Are they going to agree to restricting immigration?

Probably not, because they are political appointees and it's not their money.

[oyarde]

Considering the US is a welfare nation , continued immigration of any amount that swells those rolls is a negative for any tax payer.Tax payers are already outnumbered .

[oyarde]

6 in 10 amerikans work , probably 3 of those pay Fed taxes .Fail.

[r3volution 3.0]

Probably not, because they are political appointees and it's not their money.

So, your reason for not focusing on ending subsidies and benefits is that the politicians won't agree to it.

But you admit that the politicians won't agree to restricting immigration either...

How does that make sense?

[DamianTV]

Whaaaa? You mean simply building a giant wall and making Mexico pay for it isnt going to work? Do Americans hate Canadians too? Why do we get along well with Canada and blame Mexico for everything? Shouldnt we build a big wall along the US / Canadian Border as well too, including thru the Great Lakes? :p /s

[PierzStyx]

Mass Immigration signals the final stage of the descent.

Actually, if you had bothered to read 1984 you would know that a fear and hatred of foreigners was something the Party inspired in the populace, meaning an openness to immigrates and immigration is the very opposite of Orwellian.

[PierzStyx]

You ever wonder why so many people from Central and South America are so willing to illegally immigrate to America? It isn't because they want to give up their culture, leave their home, and come get on American welfare. No, they're coming for the money. Socialism has handicapped their countries and they want to come to America where at least the vestiges of the market economy and capitalism produces so much general wealth. So, what are we doing to capitalize on the opportunity? Nothing. Letting them wallow in ignorance because so many statists can't get over their imaginary lines to support the basics of free market capitalism and spreading the ideas and ideals of liberty. Even the Leftists are stupid on the issue. Instead of being protectionists they should fight to legalize all labor and tax "illegals" just like everyone else. Might keep their welfare state on life support a little bit longer.

[Voluntarist]

xxxxx

[Brian4Liberty]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MrAAOMLA50

What a nigtmare. From a MIC contractor of course.

[willwash]

Look both things need to happen. Subsidies and welfare need to end and I agree that is the only long term solution but UNTIL that happens immigration needs to be tightly controlled.

So I will advocate for border security while also advocating for turning off the welfare magnets. Once/if the welfare magnets are ever turned off, I will revert to an open borders position.

To quote Ron Paul, this is akin to claiming your tax return even though you don't believe in taxes.

[Ronin Truth]

Just further greasing the skids for NAU implementation. :mad: :mad:

[Valli6]

All other things being equal, it's simply a matter of personal preferences ... which is where personal prejudice against "different" people works into the mix. If you don't want people unlike you moving in next door, then support state-imposed barriers to their entry while using opposition to "state-sponsored welfare" as your rationale rather than prejudice. That way you feel more noble about yourself. If "Incompatibility with the welfare state" was really a valid rationale then you'd see it being used to erode any number of liberties, but for some reason it only seems to be used in this case.


Why do you assume everyone would love a massive influx of welfare-expecting immigrants, if only they just looked more like ourselves?
The people I’ve most disliked throughout my lifetime, nearly always look more like me, than do foreigners. In fact, quite a number of them have been my own relatives.

I assert that you are the one prejudging others, mainly “white” Americans, and feeling noble about yourself.

AuH20 is exactly right about this not being an organic migration. People are coming here with ridiculous expectations about an “American dream” that most actual Americans never see. If you live well, good for you, but don’t assume you are typical. I've noticed that successful whites, tend to assume that ALL whites, have lived lives similar to their own, and any less successful whites probably failed to work as hard as they did! When these "inferior" whites express a sense of having been shafted by their representatives, in favor of persons from some OTHER country, you conclude they are racist!

Too many Immigrants are led to believe that America is a better run version of their own crappy country, where the government can always step in to provide for an infinite number of people, anytime they want food, housing, medical care, legal aid, education, all with free translation sevices and a smile. Why? Because ‘rich white people’!

Politicians REJECT their own constituents, while creating expensive programs to entice these people in with unrealistic promises - and then insist that the same ignored taxpayers smile while they take care of them! When these newcomers learn the reality - that their idea of success may never come, even with hard work - they are led to believe that it’s because they’ve been unfairly discriminated against and blame the ordinary Americans who never had any say in the sham.

[AuH20]

Why do you assume everyone would love a massive influx of welfare-expecting immigrants, if only they just looked more like ourselves?
The people I’ve most disliked throughout my lifetime, nearly always look more like me, than do foreigners. In fact, quite a number of them have been my own relatives.

I assert that you are the one prejudging others, mainly “white” Americans, and feeling noble about yourself.

AuH20 is exactly right about this not being an organic migration. People are coming here with ridiculous expectations about an “American dream” that most actual Americans never see. If you live well, good for you, but don’t assume you are typical. I've noticed that successful whites, tend to assume that ALL whites, have lived lives similar to their own, and any less successful whites probably failed to work as hard as they did! When these "inferior" whites express a sense of having been shafted by their representatives, in favor of persons from some OTHER country, you conclude they are racist!

Too many Immigrants are led to believe that America is a better run version of their own crappy country, where the government can always step in to provide for an infinite number of people, anytime they want food, housing, medical care, legal aid, education, all with free translation sevices and a smile. Why? Because ‘rich white people’!

Politicians REJECT their own constituents, while creating expensive programs to entice these people in with unrealistic promises - and then insist that the same ignored taxpayers smile while they take care of them! When these newcomers learn the reality - that their idea of success may never come, even with hard work - they are led to believe that it’s because they’ve been unfairly discriminated against and blame the ordinary Americans who never had any say in the sham.

These immigrants are attracted to the gigantic welfare state that the boomers had built, without even realizing that the local and federal governments have borrowed decades of future tax dollars to maintain the current illusion. Eventually, the oasis will return to sand and the foreigners will be heading back to whence they came.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cc9kaksUAAATXVn.jpg:large

[DamianTV]

We have Immigration in both "Legal" and "Illegal" forms because there is an incentive. That goes for every country on the planet, not just the U.S. What has created the incentives in this country has been dishonesty from many different sources. One of our big problems with Immigration in general is it doesnt matter if there is an "honest incentive" or a "dishonest incentive", the native population may react negatively to both.

One perspective of Immigration focuses on non english speaking people. Those same people respond to incentives. What we think we are getting is the "cream of the crap", not the best and brightest. That tends to cause a negative response because those types of people are expected to take jobs that low paying, but still paid more than they could be paid in their home countries. Unfortunately the reverse is also true. If we got the "cream of the crop", those immigrants would take the higher paying jobs and the native population would be just as upset. Native citizens become even more frustrated when the Laws cause interference that prevents a balance from taking place. Such as "non discrimination" laws which allow for non-english speaking immigrants to get any sort of job, because this is perceived as "favoritism" toward any form of immigrant. I think whats happening is we are looking at ourselves and seeing our resources as finite. We dont have an unlimited ammt of money to give to immigrants, nor do we have an unlimited number of jobs.

There may be a more positive response if the immigrants that came here were not coming to be an immigrant, but a citizen of any given country, which means speaking the native language and adopting that nations cultures and values, that would be one small step. Many people do not feel that is what is happening. Lets go further tho. They come here, speak english, adopt our culture and values (not all of which are that good to begin with), dont go on welfare, and create jobs for themselves and earn their keep, I think we would be far more supportive. Not entirely supportive, but have a much better attitude toward immigration in general. There are lots of contributing factors. Personally, I feel very displaced by the immigrants that are coming here. Thats a negative perspective. A refusal to speak english, demands for welfare, demands for the existing finite resources, and discrimination against the current native population is my current perspective on the majority of immigrants.

But going further, U.S. does not have the same issues with Canada as we do with most other current sources of immigration. I've lived within a mile of the U.S. Canadian border for many years, and from my experience, most people there dont give a shit on either side. Hi, Im a Canadian and youre a U.S. citizen? Ok, cool. Then the treatment we seem to have offered each other is no different than if each person were native to their respective countries. This isnt the case with much of the rest of the world. If I meet a Canadian, I dont feel threatened by them. We dont have such wildly different political views as to cause conflict. I dont think that they snuck across the border, and half the time, they dont have any reasons to stay that cause me to feel threatened. Its more like "Hi, Im Canadian and am just here visiting my friends, which I do every weekend". If I meet a spanish speaking immigrant, I usually assume that they either snuck across the border and have no intention of leaving, or were born here to parents where at least one had crossed the border illegally. What I dont expect is to hear "Hi, Im from Mexico and Im just visiting my friends that live here, which I do every other day and have no intention of staying".

Ive had experiences where I have gone to public schools to do some tech work, and find that the majority of the students in the classroom are non english speaking students, english is literally a second language, and the class is being taught almost entirely in spanish. That experience wasnt unique to a single classroom, but class after class and school after school. That makes me feel both very displaced, threatened, and as if I were the one being discriminated against by an invading population. Its the obvious differences that make me feel unwelcome in my own home. I think other people would feel the same way if there were several Cops that forced their way into your home and expected you to speak a non native language and dictated a set of expectations that were in direct conflict with your way of life. The more similarities there are, primarily language, the less likely there will be a negative response. I remember recently reading a statement that we are NOT citizens of our countries, but Citizens of our Native Tongue. Is this why there is such a tremendous difference in attitude toward U.S. Canadian immigration vs U.S. and non english immigration?

Now, am I just fucked up, or does anyone else feel that way?

[Brian4Liberty]

If we weren't already 100+% over full on population now, I'd probably have a better attitude about immigration.

Exactly. People don't care until it flows into their area.

And when the population flows their way after fleeing from overcrowded areas it's "why are all of these liberal leftists moving to my area!!?" "I love immigrants and immigration, but I hate all of these statists that just moved to my city and are ruining it!"

[Tywysog Cymru]

I know very few people who oppose all immigration. Most Americans oppose Islamic immigration and illegal immigration but I don't think that many Americans oppose legal immigration.

[Zippyjuan]

Depends on how the question is asked. Other poll results mentioned in the OP article:


The A.T. Kearney-NPD Group survey seems to show more negativity toward immigration than other recent surveys, although it's hard to tell because each one uses its own question wording. A Pew Research Center study conducted in August through October found that 53 percent of respondents thought immigration strengthened the U.S. vs. 38 percent who thought it burdened the U.S. In a Gallup Poll in June, 34 percent of respondents favored a decrease in immigration, 25 percent favored an increase, and 40 percent favored keeping it at current levels.

Article does not indicate how the question on this particular poll was worded.

[farreri]

Has anyone estimated the percentage of felony crime illegals commit? My guess is people would be shocked how low it actually is.

[thoughtomator]

I know very few people who oppose all immigration. Most Americans oppose Islamic immigration and illegal immigration but I don't think that many Americans oppose legal immigration.

Throw in the H1-B visa program and other shenanigans into consideration and you'll find that most Americans oppose (a lot of) legal immigration.

Big Libertarianism went nowhere this year because it not only has no solution to this problem, it refuses to even acknowledge that there IS a problem here.

[kahless]

It would seem the media is no longer dancing around the racial aspect. Don't kill the messenger, this graphic is from the Washington Post.. Article quote from tomorrow's NY Times below it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2016/03/03/how-political-science-helps-explain-the-rise-of-trump-the-role-of-white-identity-and-grievances/

Newly released data from the American National Election Study’s 2016 Pilot Study show that both white racial identity and beliefs that whites are treated unfairly are powerful predictors of support for Donald Trump in the Republican primaries:
https://img.washingtonpost.com/wp-apps/imrs.php?src=https://img.washingtonpost.com/blogs/monkey-cage/files/2016/03/tesler_trumpwhites.png&w=1484

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/09/upshot/why-donald-trump-has-done-worse-in-mostly-white-states.html?_r=0


Mr. Trump’s anti-immigration language lands with force for people who fear the browning of America. Within three or four decades, several reports have indicated, non-Hispanic whites will no longer make up a majority of the United States population.
.....
■ Robert Putnam, the Harvard political scientist and author, discovered a decade ago that increased diversity in communities is correlated with distrust between and within ethnic groups. (It was perhaps not what he had hoped to find.)



The downside of diversity
A Harvard political scientist finds that diversity hurts civic life. What happens when a liberal scholar unearths an inconvenient truth?
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2007/08/05/the_downside_of_diversity/?page=full


Putnam writes that those in more diverse communities tend to "distrust their neighbors, regardless of the color of their skin, to withdraw even from close friends, to expect the worst from their community and its leaders, to volunteer less, give less to charity and work on community projects less often, to register to vote less, to agitate for social reform more but have less faith that they can actually make a difference, and to huddle unhappily in front of the television."

"People living in ethnically diverse settings appear to 'hunker down' -- that is, to pull in like a turtle," Putnam writes.

[r3volution 3.0]

^^^not at all surprising

Trump's the white Al Sharpton.

[kahless]

^^^not at all surprising

Trump's the white Al Sharpton.

Even if Trump is the white Sharpton, the point is we can dance around the immigration subject and claim it is only about crime, illegals and growing the welfare state. The articles however are showing to the people voting for Trump it is far more than that. There is anxiety about becoming a minority, being discriminated against, isolated and victimized in our own neighborhoods, competition for jobs and institutionalized discrimination.

[thoughtomator]

Has anyone estimated the percentage of felony crime illegals commit? My guess is people would be shocked how low it actually is.

It should be zero. These people shouldn't even be here to be able to commit the crime in the first place.

Its insane that "libertarians" are putting themselves in direct opposition to the will of the people in a childish oppositional-defiant posture rather than taking the issue seriously enough to determine how it could be solved in accordance with the principles of liberty.

The will of the people is for the rampant uncontrolled immigration to stop. It's unambiguous.

If "libertarianism" can't find a solution that respects this will, or can't even agree that the problem exists, then it's not a serious governing doctrine, it's a philosophical suicide cult.

[r3volution 3.0]

Even if Trump is the white Sharpton, the point is we can dance around the immigration subject and claim it is only about crime, illegals and growing the welfare state. The articles however are showing to the people voting for Trump it is far more than that. There is anxiety about becoming a minority, being discriminated against, isolated and victimized in our own neighborhoods, competition for jobs and institutionalized discrimination.

Yes, that's what the voters think.

As we critics of Trump have been saying from the start, his campaign is driven by nationalism/xenophobia.

[kahless]

Yes, that's what the voters think.

As we critics of Trump have been saying from the start, his campaign is driven by nationalism/xenophobia.

Americans ended up with the immigration mess we are in now exactly because they were not Xenophobes. As the research shows the fear and perceptions were warranted and became a reality.

[AuH20]

Yes, that's what the voters think.

As we critics of Trump have been saying from the start, his campaign is driven by nationalism/xenophobia.

Shrinking quality of life.

[AuH20]

It should be zero. These people shouldn't even be here to be able to commit the crime in the first place.

Its insane that "libertarians" are putting themselves in direct opposition to the will of the people in a childish oppositional-defiant posture rather than taking the issue seriously enough to determine how it could be solved in accordance with the principles of liberty.

The will of the people is for the rampant uncontrolled immigration to stop. It's unambiguous.

If "libertarianism" can't find a solution that respects this will, or can't even agree that the problem exists, then it's not a serious governing doctrine, it's a philosophical suicide cult.

I want to send the libertarians to Mexico and see if they can create a sizable political party there. Let's put the theories to work. Go on the street and start talking about the NAP, the dissolution of the state and self-ownership. Maybe you won't get shanked. Maybe...

[timosman]

Americans ended up with the immigration mess we are in now exactly because they were not Xenophobes. As the research shows the fear and perceptions were warranted and became a reality.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZWA_cw9tss

[Ronin Truth]

Americans seem to understand that America is already too full of people.

[timosman]

What a nigtmare. From a MIC contractor of course.

Now imagine having to endure this on a daily basis.

[euphemia]

I live in a racially and culturally diverse neighborhood. The people who are making a success are people who learn to speak, read, and write English and start a business that has a broad appeal outside the cultural niche. Learning English is important. A Korean can speak to his Mexican neighbor and to me if they both speak English.

[alucard13mm]

My dad is a democrat, he is voting for trump in the generals. Why? Them mexicans and borders. Mainly because we live in a border state and see wtf goes on. This is a huge issue mainly because my family came from hong kong and china legally. The whole applying for visa, medical checkup, studying up for tests. And no, they were not rich.

As for me, would i vote for trump? I would like to, but i think he is bullshitting . I am for secure borders, but i dont believe he would do it. That being said, i vote for no one. Now if he did do something about it, i will vote for him in 2020. Other than that, just like in 2012, ill vote for paul.

[Brian4Liberty]

Now imagine having to endure this on a daily basis.

Been there, done that.

[timosman]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0Jg7pvVzKk

[Brian4Liberty]

My dad is a democrat, he is voting for trump in the generals. Why? Them mexicans and borders. Mainly because we live in a border state and see wtf goes on. This is a huge issue mainly because my family came from hong kong and china legally. The whole applying for visa, medical checkup, studying up for tests. And no, they were not rich.

Sounds like many people I know. Then again, I know Hispanic Americans who are opposed to more immigration from Asia. But if you cross all racial boundaries and get to the common denominator, it's about over-crowding. Yeah, people like to make generalizations while just complaining or trying to be humorous, but if you get down to the real issues, it's about traffic, jobs, wages, overbuilding and lack of housing, rapid cultural changes. etc.

[Tywysog Cymru]

Throw in the H1-B visa program and other shenanigans into consideration and you'll find that most Americans oppose (a lot of) legal immigration.

Big Libertarianism went nowhere this year because it not only has no solution to this problem, it refuses to even acknowledge that there IS a problem here.

"Big Libertarianism."


Even if Trump is the white Sharpton, the point is we can dance around the immigration subject and claim it is only about crime, illegals and growing the welfare state. The articles however are showing to the people voting for Trump it is far more than that. There is anxiety about becoming a minority, being discriminated against, isolated and victimized in our own neighborhoods, competition for jobs and institutionalized discrimination.

Trump's supporters are the reverse of SJWs, while an SJW will talk about "white privilege" a Trump supporter will talk about how everything is a conspiracy against whites.

[thoughtomator]

Sounds like many people I know. Then again, I know Hispanic Americans who are opposed to more immigration from Asia. But if you cross all racial boundaries and get to the common denominator, it's about over-crowding. Yeah, people like to make generalizations while just complaining or trying to be humorous, but if you get down to the real issues, it's about traffic, jobs, wages, overbuilding and lack of housing, rapid cultural changes. etc.

Natural resource limits are also an issue. California welcomed Mexican immigration and that massively swelled its population, leading to a major water crisis. Thanks to immigration, Californians get water rationing and all the nanny statism involved in enforcing it.

[thoughtomator]

Trump's supporters are the reverse of SJWs, while an SJW will talk about "white privilege" a Trump supporter will talk about how everything is a conspiracy against whites.

There is an open, loud conspiracy against whites, and against men. "Diversity", "Affirmative Action", "White Privilege", etc. these things have long infected corporate and government policies alike, with explicit discrimination against whites and against men.

It's patently unjust any way you slice it, and this is a legitimate grievance, different in every respect from the fantasy nonsense that the SJWs come up with.

[Brian4Liberty]

I know very few people who oppose all immigration. Most Americans oppose Islamic immigration and illegal immigration but I don't think that many Americans oppose legal immigration.

Obviously, you know other people. That does not mean that the people who oppose all immigration do not exist, nor does it indicate the actual numbers. And most polls are biased, so even those generally don't give accurate numbers.

[Brian4Liberty]

Natural resource limits are also an issue. California welcomed Mexican immigration and that massively swelled its population, leading to a major water crisis. Thanks to immigration, Californians get water rationing and all the nanny statism involved in enforcing it.

Yep. Water crisis. Lack of land crisis. Pollution crisis. And some people like to go on about excess CO2 created by all of these people.

[Zippyjuan]

The country should have never let any Europeans in. Look at the mess they made.

Sure, you can blame immigrants if you like but it is the white Europeans who rule the government and business which caused all the messes. (and they were immigrants once too).

[Ronin Truth]

Sounds like many people I know. Then again, I know Hispanic Americans who are opposed to more immigration from Asia. But if you cross all racial boundaries and get to the common denominator, it's about over-crowding. Yeah, people like to make generalizations while just complaining or trying to be humorous, but if you get down to the real issues, it's about traffic, jobs, wages, overbuilding and lack of housing, rapid cultural changes. etc.

+Rep! You nailed it. Plus world resource consumption percentage.

[r3volution 3.0]

Shrinking quality of life.

...which they mistakenly blame on immigration.

They should be blaming their government's interventionist economic policies which are destroying trillions of dollars worth of output each year.


As the research shows the fear and perceptions were warranted

Not at all.

The people don't understand why the economy is the way is it, so they blame the foreigners.

[Zippyjuan]

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/feb/01/news/la-pn-ron-paul-nevada-latino-forum-20120201

Ron Paul says Latinos have become 'scapegoats'


Immigration, however, was another story.

The 12-term Texas congressman spent the better part of a 25-minute address thinking aloud about the thorny subject. He talked about how Americans are more accepting of outsiders when the economy is good, but when trouble looms there is a search for scapegoats.

"I believe Hispanics have been used as scapegoats, to say, they're the problem instead of being a symptom maybe of a problem with the welfare state," Paul told the group. "In Nazi Germany they had to have scapegoats to blame and they turned on the Jews.

"Now there's a lot of antagonism and resentment turned just automatically on immigrants," he continued. "You say, no not immigrants, it's just illegal immigrants. I do believe in legal immigration. I want to have a provision to obey those laws. You have to understand this in the context of the economy."

Paul said he's not one of those politicians who believes that "barbed-wire fences and guns on our border will solve any of our problems." That's not, he said, the American way. And he doesn't think that a national identification card is the way to go.

What the country does need, he said, is "a much better immigration service" fed by more resources. Not that he'd "vote for extra money." But he does, he told the crowd, have a plan.

[Brian4Liberty]

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/feb/01/news/la-pn-ron-paul-nevada-latino-forum-20120201

Ron Paul says Latinos have become 'scapegoats'

Says the guy who wants to scapegoat Anglos and provide fuel for Kahless.

Ron Paul is right. It's not about one group or another.

[Lucille]

Says the guy who wants to scapegoat Anglos and provide fuel for Kahless.

While he pretends to be Hispanic. Most Mexicans I know would kick his pasty ass for that alone. They don't need no GD Juan Brown!

And, once again, the resident statist ZippyJeffry only mentions Ron to throw him in his supporters' faces.

[Ronin Truth]

Has anyone estimated the percentage of felony crime illegals commit? My guess is people would be shocked how low it actually is.

For one, they become criminals just for being here, uninvited and not approved. Hardly an auspicious beginning for a positive ongoing relationship.

[Ronin Truth]

It should be zero. These people shouldn't even be here to be able to commit the crime in the first place.

Its insane that "libertarians" are putting themselves in direct opposition to the will of the people in a childish oppositional-defiant posture rather than taking the issue seriously enough to determine how it could be solved in accordance with the principles of liberty.

The will of the people is for the rampant uncontrolled immigration to stop. It's unambiguous.

If "libertarianism" can't find a solution that respects this will, or can't even agree that the problem exists, then it's not a serious governing doctrine, it's a philosophical suicide cult.

Where are you getting all this phony bogus crap about what libertarians think and believe? Are you just making it all up?

What the hell non-existent authoritative 'libertarian spokesperson' are you listening to?

[timosman]

Sounds like many people I know. Then again, I know Hispanic Americans who are opposed to more immigration from Asia. But if you cross all racial boundaries and get to the common denominator, it's about over-crowding. Yeah, people like to make generalizations while just complaining or trying to be humorous, but if you get down to the real issues, it's about traffic, jobs, wages, overbuilding and lack of housing, rapid cultural changes. etc.

It is all worth it because we get more points of view in our decision making process and, as we all know, our decisions are based on merit and not appeal to authority or arm twisting. The added cost of disregarding core american values pales in comparison with being able to live in a truly multicultural society.

[Tywysog Cymru]

There is an open, loud conspiracy against whites, and against men. "Diversity", "Affirmative Action", "White Privilege", etc. these things have long infected corporate and government policies alike, with explicit discrimination against whites and against men.

It's patently unjust any way you slice it, and this is a legitimate grievance, different in every respect from the fantasy nonsense that the SJWs come up with.

A lot of Trump's supporters refer to immigration, interracial marriage, and transracial adoption as "white genocide." I fail to see how that's any better than the people who think that it would be racist for me to wear a sombrero.


Obviously, you know other people. That does not mean that the people who oppose all immigration do not exist, nor does it indicate the actual numbers. And most polls are biased, so even those generally don't give accurate numbers.

I am sure it's different in Arizona or California, and I'm sure those people exist throughout the country. But I just haven't met very many people for whom immigration is a priority this far away from the border. The town I grew up in has very few immigrants and their presence is only really seen in the Mexican and Chinese restaurants in the town. The issue just didn't stir up the same passion that the economy, Obamacare, gun rights, abortion, or foreign policy would.

[kahless]

Not at all.

The people don't understand why the economy is the way is it, so they blame the foreigners.

I rarely if ever hear anyone here or outside of these forums blame foreigners. Rather they blame the policy of importing too many foreigners which they know from experience and statistics results in discrimination against natives for jobs, drives up unemployment while driving down wages.


There is an open, loud conspiracy against whites, and against men. "Diversity", "Affirmative Action", "White Privilege", etc. these things have long infected corporate and government policies alike, with explicit discrimination against whites and against men.

It's patently unjust any way you slice it, and this is a legitimate grievance, different in every respect from the fantasy nonsense that the SJWs come up with.

So true.

[alucard13mm]

Natural resource limits are also an issue. California welcomed Mexican immigration and that massively swelled its population, leading to a major water crisis. Thanks to immigration, Californians get water rationing and all the nanny statism involved in enforcing it.

That is exactly what i think too. If california and many of the border states have water issues, then having illegals come in will make problems worse. Water is going to become precious.

[Zippyjuan]

Water is an issue in many western states- even those without large immigrant populations. Most recent map:

http://droughtmonitor.unl.edu/data/pngs/20160308/20160308_usdm_home.png
http://droughtmonitor.unl.edu/

Note also shortages in areas where there is lots of fracking going on which makes it worse since fracking uses a lot of water.

[enhanced_deficit]

That translates to "Americans really like Trump"... in a way. Or at least it would explain his ascend.

[DamianTV]

Borrowed this image from an article:

America Becoming Less American Every Year
http://www.rense.com/general96/lessameric.html

http://www.rense.com/general96/m40097134.png

[Brian4Liberty]

That translates to "Americans really like Trump"... in a way. Or at least it would explain his ascend.

It seems that Trump saw the trend, the dam ready to burst, and he took advantage of it. The lesson of Eric Cantor was not lost on Trump.

[timosman]

It seems that Trump saw the trend, the dam ready to burst, and he took advantage of it. The lesson of Eric Cantor was not lost on Trump.

Too bad the ophthalmologist from Kentucky could not see it.

[Zippyjuan]

Borrowed this image from an article:

America Becoming Less American Every Year
http://www.rense.com/general96/lessameric.html

http://www.rense.com/general96/m40097134.png

I was just reading an economic article which looked at the current slow growth in the global economy. It noted that countries with low population growth rates also tend to have slow growing economies and pointed out that global population growth has slowed significantly so we can expect slow economic growth to continue. So if the US did not allow any immigration (or more heavily restricted it) we would not have seen the economic growth we have had over the last century.

[timosman]

I was just reading an economic article which looked at the current slow growth in the global economy. It noted that countries with low population growth rates also tend to have slow growing economies and pointed out that global population growth has slowed significantly so we can expect slow economic growth to continue. So if the US did not allow any immigration (or more heavily restricted it) we would not have seen the economic growth we have had over the last century.

Debt = Growth?

[John117]

Who would have thought that when you go to a nation, harm the natives in the wages, jobs, culture, elections and reduce their standerd of living, Liberty and their future and that of their posterity they will hate you and move to reduce immigration?

[John117]

I was just reading an economic article which looked at the current slow growth in the global economy. It noted that countries with low population growth rates also tend to have slow growing economies and pointed out that global population growth has slowed significantly so we can expect slow economic growth to continue. So if the US did not allow any immigration (or more heavily restricted it) we would not have seen the economic growth we have had over the last century.

A nation is more then economic growth, its of people, blood and culture.

Not true at all, we heavily restricted immigration from 1924 to 1970 and the growth was dynamic.

[John117]

Water is an issue in many western states- even those without large immigrant populations. Most recent map:


http://droughtmonitor.unl.edu/data/pngs/20160308/20160308_usdm_home.png
http://droughtmonitor.unl.edu/

Note also shortages in areas where there is lots of fracking going on which makes it worse since fracking uses a lot of water.


Adding millions of people only makes things worse, but what would you know, you do not live here.

[Libertas Aut Mortis]

Just further greasing the skids for NAU implementation. :mad: :mad:

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

And besides, you can't talk about things like that...you'll trigger the open border globalist types.

[John117]

Well soon immigration sanity will rule the day, the open border faction of the GOP is on its death bed.

[Zippyjuan]

Adding millions of people only makes things worse, but what would you know, you do not live here.

Where do you think I live? How many millions are coming here every year? You talking legal immigration or illegal or both? Illegal immigration has been zero for a while now.

http://www.pewresearch.org/files/2015/07/FT_15.07.23_UnauthImmigrants.png

How fast is the US population growing? Would you believe less than one percent a year? Last year it was 0.7%. That is one reason the economy is growing so slowly.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/31/us-population-growth-slowest-1930s-census-data


US population growing at slowest rate since 1930s, census data shows

US population growth has slowed to levels not seen since the Great Depression, according to data released this week by the US census bureau.

The US population was expected to grow just 0.7% in 2013, to arrive at 317,297,938 people on New Year's Day 2014. That rate was down from 0.73% in 2010-2011 and much lower than the 1.2% growth rate of the 1990s, a decade of economic expansion.

The United States has not seen such slow growth since the Depression era of 1933-1937, according to William Frey, a demographics expert and senior fellow at the Brookings Institution.


More at link. That is a bit over two million in population growth- including births, deaths, and net immigration. The decline continues:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-E9X0j_QCS4o/Tt-T0Tn_vtI/AAAAAAAAAh4/LjnJGt0uYvQ/s1600/US+Population+Growth+Rate.png

[RandallFan]

Central Americans: Guatamalans, Hondurans,etc. are replacing the Mexicans. They still use the Mexico border to cross into the US.

Bill Maher and many others have repeated this lie about net Mexican-nationals immigration.

Look at Germany(show me the population growth, birth rates & economic growth 2010-2014), before they let in 2 million additional Muzzies in the last 18 months.

At what point did South Korea, Japan open their borders to mass immigration while their economy grew in the 70s, 80s or 90s or 00s or 10s or parthereof-decade.

[Zippyjuan]

Actually Asians are #1 now for immigrants. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/15/asian-immigrants-surpass-hispanics_n_3446441.html

Trump needs a new Great Wall of China. Article from 2013.


Asian Immigrants Surpass Hispanics As Biggest Immigrant Wave To U.S.

A new study has found that the U.S. has seen a higher level of Asian immigration to the country than immigration of Hispanics; perhaps revealing a future decrease in undocumented immigration and increase in demand for highly-skilled workers.

About 430,000 Asians, or 36 percent of all new immigrants, arrived in the U.S. in 2010, according to the latest census data. That’s compared to about 370,000, or 31 percent, who were Hispanic.

“Too often the policy debates on immigration fixate on just one part – illegal immigration,’’ said to the Associated Press, Karthick Ramakrishnan, a political science professor at the University of California-Riverside and a fellow at the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars. “US immigration is more diverse and broader than that, with policy that needs to focus also on high-skilled workers.’’

Asian immigrants and other international students in the U.S.

International students studying at U.S. colleges and universities also are now most likely to come from Asian countries, roughly 6 in 10, and some of them are able to live and work in the U.S. after graduation. Asian students, both foreign born and U.S. born, earned 45 percent of all engineering Ph.D.s in 2010, as well as 38 percent of doctorates in math and computer sciences and 33 percent of doctorates in the physical sciences, according to the Associated Press.

Illegal immigration too. http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/08/asians-now-outpace-mexicans-in-terms-of-undocumented-growth/432603/


Asians Now Outpace Mexicans In Terms of Undocumented Growth

Chinese, South Koreans, and Indians among the fastest-growing segments of undocumented immigrants.

Someone tell Donald Trump that he's picking on the wrong immigrants. Turns out that, since 2000, unauthorized immigration from Asia has grown at rates much faster than from Mexico and Central America. That's according to a new report by the Migration Policy Institute. So Trump will need to amend his ideas for "securing our nation's borders."

At 6 million, Mexicans still represent the majority of the 11 million unauthorized immigrants in the country. But the percentage of those arriving has slowed since the recession. During that time, however, Asian unauthorized immigration has increased considerably. From 2000 to 2013, it increased 202 percent, according to the report.

A curious reason for this, says Marc Rosenblum, deputy director of U.S. immigration policy at MPI, and coauthor of the study, is that income in some Asian countries has risen. "That can be counterintuitive," he says, "since you often think of immigration is something that low-income people do."



As demand for low-skilled, low-wage workers waned, so did the number of those who came to the U.S. and traditionally filled those roles. In greater numbers than any other group, the unauthorized Mexican immigrant population has dropped after the recession.

"I think it's safe to say that the unauthorized immigrant Mexican population is unlikely to return to the high growth rate that it did in the 80s and 90s," says Rosenblum.


What happened in that time, Rosenblum says, is that as the economies thrived in places such as China, South Korea, and India, people there could now afford to migrate to the U.S.—both legally and illegally.

For example, in 1990, there were an estimated 28,000 unauthorized immigrants from India in the U.S. There's now more than 284,000. Those numbers mirror the rising share of legal Indian immigrants coming to the U.S., and also America's growing Indian-American population.

[timosman]

\\

[John117]

Where do you think I live? How many millions are coming here every year? You talking legal immigration or illegal or both? Illegal immigration has been zero for a while now.

http://www.pewresearch.org/files/2015/07/FT_15.07.23_UnauthImmigrants.png



How fast is the US population growing? Would you believe less than one percent a year? Last year it was 0.7%. That is one reason the economy is growing so slowly.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/31/us-population-growth-slowest-1930s-census-data


More at link. That is a bit over two million in population growth- including births, deaths, and net immigration. The decline continues:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-E9X0j_QCS4o/Tt-T0Tn_vtI/AAAAAAAAAh4/LjnJGt0uYvQ/s1600/US+Population+Growth+Rate.png



Close to 1.5 million illegals are still coming, your lies do not change this.

How is adding low IQ persons that use welfare at more then 3 times the rate of natives going to boost the economy?

More over if their is going to be a boast in population why not American native? We did it before with great success, and Immigration restriction played a massive party.

A bad economy will result in a lower fertility rate, that is a given.

[John117]

Actually Asians are #1 now for immigrants. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/15/asian-immigrants-surpass-hispanics_n_3446441.html

Trump needs a new Great Wall of China. Article from 2013.



Illegal immigration too. http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/08/asians-now-outpace-mexicans-in-terms-of-undocumented-growth/432603/



Thank you for making the case against mass immigration.

[otherone]

Not true at all, we heavily restricted immigration from 1924 to 1970 and the growth was dynamic.

Damn, grandpa! You are easily the oldest member here!

[acptulsa]

I was just reading an economic article which looked at the current slow growth in the global economy. It noted that countries with low population growth rates also tend to have slow growing economies and pointed out that global population growth has slowed significantly so we can expect slow economic growth to continue. So if the US did not allow any immigration (or more heavily restricted it) we would not have seen the economic growth we have had over the last century.

Yo, Zippy. Quick quiz. Does population growth cause economic growth, or is it a result of economic growth?

If all commerce were outlawed tomorrow, would the economy react in a way directly proportional to population growth, or would it behave as if some other force might have an impact on it? Could the population, having feet, react to that impacted economy?

[Zippyjuan]

Close to 1.5 million illegals are still coming, your lies do not change this.

How is adding low IQ persons that use welfare at more then 3 times the rate of natives going to boost the economy?

More over if their is going to be a boast in population why not American native? We did it before with great success, and Immigration restriction played a massive party.

A bad economy will result in a lower fertility rate, that is a given.

So let's import more Native Americans.

[Zippyjuan]

Yo, Zippy. Quick quiz. Does population growth cause economic growth, or is it a result of economic growth?

If all commerce were outlawed tomorrow, would the economy react in a way directly proportional to population growth, or would it behave as if some other force might have an impact on it? Could the population, having feet, react to that impacted economy?

GDP grows for two reasons. One is improvements in technology which allows for higher per person productivity. Those gains are becoming extremely difficult to come by- we aren't likely going to see the massive improvements in productivity the world saw during the 20th Century. That means slower economic growth from technology.

The second factor for GDP growth is population growth- more people producing and demanding more things. That too is slowing globally. Population growth has tended to slow as a county's economy mature the economy leading to slower population growth. A family needs fewer kids to insure their survival. In a poor economy, your family needs more workers to earn more money just to feed it and if health is a struggle, you need more kids so some survive into adulthood to create the next generation.

http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/future_tense/2013/01/world_population_may_actually_start_declining_not_ exploding.html


About That Overpopulation Problem

Research suggests we may actually face a declining world population in the coming years.

The world’s seemingly relentless march toward overpopulation achieved a notable milestone in 2012: Somewhere on the planet, according to U.S. Census Bureau estimates, the 7 billionth living person came into existence.

Lucky No. 7,000,000,000 probably celebrated his or her birthday sometime in March and added to a population that’s already stressing the planet’s limited supplies of food, energy, and clean water. Should this trend continue, as the Los Angeles Times noted in a five-part series marking the occasion, by midcentury, “living conditions are likely to be bleak for much of humanity.”

A somewhat more arcane milestone, meanwhile, generated no media coverage at all: It took humankind 13 years to add its 7 billionth. That’s longer than the 12 years it took to add the 6 billionth—the first time in human history that interval had grown. (The 2 billionth, 3 billionth, 4 billionth, and 5 billionth took 123, 33, 14, and 13 years, respectively.) In other words, the rate of global population growth has slowed. And it’s expected to keep slowing. Indeed, according to experts’ best estimates, the total population of Earth will stop growing within the lifespan of people alive today.

And then it will fall.

This is a counterintuitive notion in the United States, where we’ve heard often and loudly that world population growth is a perilous and perhaps unavoidable threat to our future as a species. But population decline is a very familiar concept in the rest of the developed world, where fertility has long since fallen far below the 2.1 live births per woman required to maintain population equilibrium. In Germany, the birthrate has sunk to just 1.36, worse even than its low-fertility neighbors Spain (1.48) and Italy (1.4). The way things are going, Western Europe as a whole will most likely shrink from 460 million to just 350 million by the end of the century. That’s not so bad compared with Russia and China, each of whose populations could fall by half. As you may not be surprised to learn, the Germans have coined a polysyllabic word for this quandary: Schrumpf-Gesellschaft, or “shrinking society.”

American media have largely ignored the issue of population decline for the simple reason that it hasn’t happened here yet. Unlike Europe, the United States has long been the beneficiary of robust immigration. This has helped us not only by directly bolstering the number of people calling the United States home but also by propping up the birthrate, since immigrant women tend to produce far more children than the native-born do.

But both those advantages look to diminish in years to come. A report issued last month by the Pew Research Center found that immigrant births fell from 102 per 1,000 women in 2007 to 87.8 per 1,000 in 2012. That helped bring the overall U.S. birthrate to a mere 64 per 1,000 women—not enough to sustain our current population.

Moreover, the poor, highly fertile countries that once churned out immigrants by the boatload are now experiencing birthrate declines of their own. From 1960 to 2009, Mexico’s fertility rate tumbled from 7.3 live births per woman to 2.4, India’s dropped from six to 2.5, and Brazil’s fell from 6.15 to 1.9. Even in sub-Saharan Africa, where the average birthrate remains a relatively blistering 4.66, fertility is projected to fall below replacement level by the 2070s. This change in developing countries will affect not only the U.S. population, of course, but eventually the world’s.Why is this happening? Scientists who study population dynamics point to a phenomenon called “demographic transition.”

“For hundreds of thousands of years,” explains Warren Sanderson, a professor of economics at Stony Brook University, “in order for humanity to survive things like epidemics and wars and famine, birthrates had to be very high.” Eventually, thanks to technology, death rates started to fall in Europe and in North America, and the population size soared. In time, though, birthrates fell as well, and the population leveled out. The same pattern has repeated in countries around the world.

Demographic transition, Sanderson says, “is a shift between two very different long-run states: from high death rates and high birthrates to low death rates and low birthrates.” Not only is the pattern well-documented, it’s well under way: Already, more than half the world’s population is reproducing at below the replacement rate.

If the Germany of today is the rest of the world tomorrow, then the future is going to look a lot different than we thought. Instead of skyrocketing toward uncountable Malthusian multitudes, researchers at Austria’s International Institute for Applied Systems Analysis foresee the global population maxing out at 9 billion some time around 2070. On the bright side, the long-dreaded resource shortage may turn out not to be a problem at all. On the not-so-bright side, the demographic shift toward more retirees and fewer workers could throw the rest of the world into the kind of interminable economic stagnation that Japan is experiencing right now.

More at link.

Without immigration, the US would be shrinking- and our economy along with it.


Could the population, having feet, react to that impacted economy?

Where did they take their feet and go? The entire world is growing much more slowly- both economically and in terms of population. You are right that the reason that illegal immigration halted was because economic opportunity evaporated with the recession (along with other factors such as jobs in Mexico improving and fewer kids to support there). There are an estimated million fewer of them than we had in 2007 and net immigration (legal and illegal) from Mexico hit zero soon afterwards.