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Brian4Liberty
02-19-2016, 08:15 PM
China's Radars Can Track America's Stealthy F-22 Raptor (http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/revealed-can-chinas-radars-track-americas-stealth-f-22-15261)
By Dave Majumdar - February 19, 2016


State-run Chinese media is claiming that the People’s Liberation Army has been able to track the U.S. Air Force’s Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor stealth fighters over the East China Sea. While the Chinese report might be easily dismissed as propaganda—it is not beyond the realm of possibility. In fact—it’s very possible that China can track the Raptor. Stealth is not a cloak of invisibility, after all. Stealth technology simply delays detection and tracking.

First off, if a Raptor is carrying external fuel tanks—as it often does during “ferry missions”—it is not in a stealth configuration. Moreover, the aircraft is often fitted with a Luneburg lens device on its ventral side during peacetime operations that enhances its cross section on radar.

That being said, even combat-configured F-22s are not invisible to enemy radar, contrary to popular belief. Neither is any other tactical fighter-sized stealth aircraft with empennage surfaces such as tailfins—the F-35, PAK-FA, J-20 or J-31. That’s just basic physics.

The laws of physics essentially dictate that a tactical fighter-sized stealth aircraft must be optimized to defeat higher-frequency bands such the C, X, Ku and the top part of the S bands. There is a “step change” in a Low Observable (LO) aircraft’s signature once the frequency wavelength exceeds a certain threshold and causes a resonant effect. Typically, that resonance occurs when a feature on an aircraft—such as a tail-fin — is less than eight times the size of a particular frequency wavelength. Effectively, small stealth aircraft that do not have the size or weight allowances for two feet or more of radar absorbent material coatings on every surface are forced to make trades as to which frequency bands they are optimized for.

Therefore, a radar operating at a lower-frequency band such as parts of the S or L band—like civilian air traffic control (ATC) radars—are almost certainly able to detect and track tactical fighter-sized stealth aircraft. However, a larger stealth aircraft like the Northrop Grumman B-2 Spirit, which lacks many of the features that cause a resonance effect, is much more effective against low-frequency radars than, for example, an F-35 or F-22. Typically, however, those lower-frequency radars do not provide what Pentagon officials call a “weapons quality” track needed to guide a missile onto a target. “Even if you can see an LO [low observable] strike aircraft with ATC radar, you can’t kill it without a fire control system,” an Air Force official had told me.

That being said, Russia, China and others are developing advanced UHF and VHF band early warning radars that use even longer wavelengths in an effort to cue their other sensors and give their fighters some idea of where an adversary stealth aircraft might be coming from. But the problem with VHF and UHF band radars is that with long wavelengths come large radar resolution cells. That means that contacts are not tracked with the required level of fidelity to guide a weapon onto a target. As one U.S. Navy officer rhetorically asked, “Does the mission require a cloaking device or is it OK if the threat sees it but can’t do anything about it?”
...
More: http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/revealed-can-chinas-radars-track-americas-stealth-f-22-15261

pcosmar
02-19-2016, 08:50 PM
Duh,,

Like since before it was ever flown.

Both Russia and China have anti-stealth technology.
Iran already proved "stealth" is worthless.

Danke
02-19-2016, 08:59 PM
Read the article. It still can not be shot down before it has already engage the enemy aircraft and bugged out.

Anti Federalist
02-19-2016, 09:05 PM
The uninvited guest: Chinese sub pops up in middle of U.S. Navy exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced

By MATTHEW HICKLEY

Last updated at 00:13 10 November 2007

Published: 10 November 2007

When the U.S. Navy deploys a battle fleet on exercises, it takes the security of its aircraft carriers very seriously indeed.

At least a dozen warships provide a physical guard while the technical wizardry of the world's only military superpower offers an invisible shield to detect and deter any intruders.

That is the theory. Or, rather, was the theory.

Scroll down for more ...

Song Class submarine

American military chiefs have been left dumbstruck by an undetected Chinese submarine popping up at the heart of a recent Pacific exercise and close to the vast U.S.S. Kitty Hawk - a 1,000ft supercarrier with 4,500 personnel on board.

By the time it surfaced the 160ft Song Class diesel-electric attack submarine is understood to have sailed within viable range for launching torpedoes or missiles at the carrier.

According to senior Nato officials the incident caused consternation in the U.S. Navy.

The Americans had no idea China's fast-growing submarine fleet had reached such a level of sophistication, or that it posed such a threat.

One Nato figure said the effect was "as big a shock as the Russians launching Sputnik" - a reference to the Soviet Union's first orbiting satellite in 1957 which marked the start of the space age.

The incident, which took place in the ocean between southern Japan and Taiwan, is a major embarrassment for the Pentagon.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-492804/The-uninvited-guest-Chinese-sub-pops-middle-U-S-Navy-exercise-leaving-military-chiefs-red-faced.html#ixzz40fpiEgJF
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

AuH20
02-19-2016, 09:11 PM
Bill Clinton was the one who first started selling our military secrets to the Chinese, in return for financial support. The Clintons will sell anything not nailed down.

pcosmar
02-19-2016, 09:17 PM
Read the article. It still can not be shot down before it has already engage the enemy aircraft and bugged out.

Might be what the article says,, but bullshit.

Iran has done it. Saw the stealth.. and owned it.

If it is seen then the "stealth" is moot. a huge waste of money.

Just because some contractor says it can't be targeted.. does not mean that is exactly so.

pcosmar
02-19-2016, 09:22 PM
Bill Clinton was the one who first started selling our military secrets to the Chinese, in return for financial support. The Clintons will sell anything not nailed down.

To my understanding,, Iran had Russian anti-steath technology.. but that was several years ago.

Brian4Liberty
02-19-2016, 09:52 PM
The Americans had no idea China's fast-growing submarine fleet had reached such a level of sophistication, or that it posed such a threat.


MIC corporatists have been selling us out for a long time.

Brian4Liberty
02-19-2016, 09:53 PM
Bill Clinton was the one who first started selling our military secrets to the Chinese, in return for financial support. The Clintons will sell anything not nailed down.

And was it Reagan or Bush who sold it to Japan (Toshiba) and they then sold it to Russia and China?

Danke
02-19-2016, 09:55 PM
Might be what the article says,, but bullshit.

Iran has done it. Saw the stealth.. and owned it.

If it is seen then the "stealth" is moot. a huge waste of money.

Just because some contractor says it can't be targeted.. does not mean that is exactly so.

Not even close, taking over a drone does not have anything to do with a manned fighter, stealth or not.

Danke
02-19-2016, 09:58 PM
Stealth is nothing but reducing your radar cross-section or heat signature so that you can engage your enemy before they can engage you. The F 22 is currently unmatched in that arena

idiom
02-19-2016, 10:53 PM
Stealth is nothing but reducing your radar cross-section or heat signature so that you can engage your enemy before they can engage you. The F 22 is currently unmatched in that arena

Watch it shoot down all those incoming ICBMs!

pcosmar
02-19-2016, 11:07 PM
MIC corporatists have been selling us out for a long time.

Israel has been selling the IRON DOME.

Rand (among others) Voted to give them millions of tax dollars for it.

http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-1188840

pcosmar
02-19-2016, 11:09 PM
Stealth is nothing but reducing your radar cross-section or heat signature so that you can engage your enemy before they can engage you. The F 22 is currently unmatched in that arena

according to who?

has it ever gone up against an enemy? Tested in combat?

Presently.. it is only unmatched by anyone seriously trying to kill it.

and until in that situation,, it is nothing but sales pitch.

surf
02-19-2016, 11:13 PM
it shows up on the radar as if it were a harmless bird (traveling at 1200 mph). they'll never figure it out.

Danke
02-19-2016, 11:16 PM
according to who?

has it ever gone up against an enemy? Tested in combat?

Lol, yes it is a great platform, and instead of canceling it for the f-35, we would be better off with the original plan for Procurement.

Tested, have you ever heard Of Green Flag or Red FLag? We got many Soviet aircraft airframes through the years and also gather intelligence every day on their capabilities and train against that.

Saddam had one of the largest military in the world. We knocked out His air defenses in three days. Those were Soviet air defenses.

Danke
02-19-2016, 11:20 PM
it shows up on the radar as if it were a harmless bird (traveling at 1200 mph). they'll never figure it out.

I was a fighter pilot and know how the game works. I also have spoken with F-22 pilots, you guys know nothing how air superiority works, and why it is essential. The data link capabilities plus its stealth gives us a far advantage currently.

surf
02-19-2016, 11:34 PM
I was a fighter pilot and know how the game works. I also have spoken with F-22 pilots, you guys know nothing how air superiority works, and why it is essential. The data link capabilities plus its stealth gives us a far advantage currently.
I was repeating what an air force bigwig said to my girlfriend at an airshow a couple decades ago (probably speaking of the f117 and b2). the f22s may be an upgraded bunch of wonderful killing machines (the gist of the quote still holds though), but i'd prefer we just salvage the engines and turn them into scrap.

Danke
02-19-2016, 11:39 PM
I was repeating what an air force bigwig said to my girlfriend at an airshow a couple decades ago (probably speaking of the f117 and b2). the f22s may be an upgraded bunch of wonderful killing machines (the gist of the quote still holds though), but i'd prefer we just salvage the engines and turn them into scrap.

You realize that F117 was in the initial wave against Baghdad against a highly fortified the defence. Not one single F117 was shot down. They flew directly at the enemies radar. They were not seen until it was too late. One of those pilots flew in my squadron later on in a different war aircraft. And now flies at the same airline that I do. I will let him know how worthless stealth technology works, I'm sure he will be interested in your opinion.

Isaac Bickerstaff
02-20-2016, 12:14 AM
I was a fighter pilot

And with that, every question I have ever had about Danke is answered.

alucard13mm
02-20-2016, 01:54 AM
I would assume even if you can see it on radar, it does not mean you can lock onto it with any ground to air weapons platform. You'd have to scramble your own air force within probably a few minutes. I would also assume the further it is away, the harder it is to even see it. By that time, whatever the stealth fighter is targeting is probably destroyed and most likely the stealth fighter/bomber will run for it and be long gone before your own air craft can even get near.

Tinnuhana
02-20-2016, 08:14 AM
For some reason, I can't remember the sub thing happening. The Kitty Hawk is/was based out of Yokosuka, I think. It drops by here once in a while.

TheTexan
02-20-2016, 08:22 AM
You realize that F117 was in the initial wave against Baghdad against a highly fortified the defence.

It was Baghdad. Couldnt have been too fortified.

presence
02-20-2016, 08:41 AM
Read the article. It still can not be shot down before it has already engage the enemy aircraft and bugged out.

I'm sorry but any strategy that depends on shoot once and run is doomed to fail.

presence
02-20-2016, 08:53 AM
The other thing that is doomed to fail is the cost of US aircraft. We pay 3-10 times what china and russia pay for par aircraft. I'd take a dogfight anyday on the side of 3 Su35's vs a F35... or 3 J31's vs a F22.

Intoxiklown
02-20-2016, 10:20 AM
The piece of this puzzle everyone is forgetting the tail section of the stealth helicopter recovered from Pakistan after the Bin Laden raid. Between the captured drone in Iran, and that tail section in Pakistan, China has gotten access to some good study guides to our stealth tech.

presence
02-20-2016, 10:38 AM
You realize that F117 was in the initial wave against Baghdad against a highly fortified the defence.

You're camparison is akin to the mafia bragging about beating up a street thug.

Danke
02-20-2016, 10:39 AM
You're camparison is akin to the mafia bragging beating up a street thug.

Saddam had one of the largest militaries at that time and also very sophisticated air defense systems.

presence
02-20-2016, 11:03 AM
Saddam had one of the largest militaries at that time and also very sophisticated air defense systems.

homie we flew 3000 top dog planes against 500 mig29's

I don't care what air defense they had it was overwhelmed by sheer numbers.

Danke
02-20-2016, 11:04 AM
homie we flew 3000 top dog planes against 500 mig29's

I don't care what air defense they had it was overwhelmed by sheer numbers.

Nope. That is not why.

surf
02-20-2016, 11:45 AM
thanks for the input, Danke, and i'm not going to debate whether or not your death machine is one of the best at killing shit - though i'd never throw Iraq out there as something to be proud of or a show of superiority. but I think your naïve to believe that it won't be seen on radar or some other way going forward (if not currently as China apparently claims).

I want my money back and the technological minds that develop this shit to start curing cancer.

Danke
02-20-2016, 11:53 AM
thanks for the input, Danke, and i'm not going to debate whether or not your death machine is one of the best at killing shit - though i'd never throw Iraq out there as something to be proud of or a show of superiority. but I think your naïve to believe that it won't be seen on radar or some other way going forward (if not currently as China apparently claims).

I want my money back and the technological minds that develop this shit to start curing cancer.

Do you feel better now that you got that off your chest?

TheNewYorker
02-20-2016, 12:29 PM
The other thing that is doomed to fail is the cost of US aircraft. We pay 3-10 times what china and russia pay for par aircraft. I'd take a dogfight anyday on the side of 3 Su35's vs a F35... or 3 J31's vs a F22.

The F22 has been shown in simulation to be able to take down 10 DC-10's at once, 9 times out of 10.

enhanced_deficit
02-20-2016, 03:58 PM
Wonder if our closest ally play a role in this.


U.S. Furious With Israel After Sale of Advanced Military Technology to China (http://www.algemeiner.com/2013/12/22/u-s-furious-with-israel-after-sale-of-advanced-military-technology-to-china/) December 22, 2013 11:40 am 82 comments (http://www.algemeiner.com/2013/12/22/u-s-furious-with-israel-after-sale-of-advanced-military-technology-to-china/#comments)
Gidon Ben-zvi



http://49yzp92imhtx8radn224z7y1.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/300px-Phalcon.jpg (http://www.algemeiner.com/2013/12/22/u-s-furious-with-israel-after-sale-of-advanced-military-technology-to-china/300px-phalcon/)A Boeing 707 carrying advanced military equipment.


The Israeli Defense Ministry’s Head of Defense Export Control, Meir Shalit, resigned last week after the United States expressed anger over a decision he made to sell sensitive military equipment to China, Israeli daily Ma’ariv reported on Sunday. At the time, Shalit did not provide a reason for his resignatio

http://www.algemeiner.com/2013/12/22/u-s-furious-with-israel-after-sale-of-advanced-military-technology-to-china/#

Isaac Bickerstaff
02-20-2016, 07:17 PM
U.S. Furious With Israel After Sale of Advanced Military Technology to China

"I'm so angry with you right now, the next check I write you is going to be written poorly. And don't expect Bibi to get quite so many standing ovations the next time he addresses our congress. No Sir--eee!"

asurfaholic
02-20-2016, 07:34 PM
Nope. That is not why.

I, for one, value your input and would like you to expand a bit. I know it's really recent history but the invasion of Iraq feels like a lifetime ago.

Danke
02-20-2016, 08:56 PM
I, for one, value your input and would like you to expand a bit. I know it's really recent history but the invasion of Iraq feels like a lifetime ago.

I am not going to write a book on this here. But there have already been many written if one wants to do the research. There is just too much wrong in this thread to respond. People really don't understand how air campaigns work. If you get to the point where you're in a dogfight you have already lost a lot of your advantage. Combat is dynamic. If you are engaging an enemy, after the initial missiles launched, you will leave the fight and regroup. The last thing you want to do is engage in a dogfight. We have many assets that we employ with numerous resources and datalinks to give the picture of the combat we will engage, AWACs, other aircraft, satellites, etc. So far we are superior in those resources we bring to bear in any air to air combat. As an example, the F 22 would be the frontline sweeper, backed up with F-15 and F-16s. Targeting would be coordinated. Currently going against Chinese Air Force would be a turkey shoot . Yes we might have some of our aircraft shot down but the vast majority of casualties would be on the Chinese side. And I will add, our pilots are second to none, especially compared to Asian pilots. I flew over there. I heave witness that first hand. Does anyone remember China's so called ace fighter pilot colliding with one of our transport type aircraft? Remember the accident in San Fransisco? They suck. Many round eyes fly for Asian carriers because why?? Because they suck.

AngryCanadian
02-20-2016, 08:59 PM
Remember the Balkan wars anyone?
http://i40.tinypic.com/69i0dz.jpg
Stealth is useless. The F/117s were supposed to have being made according to history channel "nighthawk it's stealth technology came straight from space aliens"

Yet was rather shoot down by a few Serb fighters with 80s Russian weaponry.
I am not surprised that China, Iran and Russia are using Anti-Stealth technology.

TheTexan
02-20-2016, 09:02 PM
Remember the Balkan wars anyone?
http://i40.tinypic.com/69i0dz.jpg
Stealth is useless. The F/117s were supposed to have being made according to history channel "nighthawk it's stealth technology came straight from space aliens"

AngryCanadian, we don't need stealth to bomb Canada. Just keep that in mind.

AngryCanadian
02-20-2016, 09:05 PM
You got Trump we get the message.

Danke
02-20-2016, 09:13 PM
Remember the Balkan wars anyone?
http://i40.tinypic.com/69i0dz.jpg
Stealth is useless. The F/117s were supposed to have being made according to history channel "nighthawk it's stealth technology came straight from space aliens"

Yet was rather shoot down by a few Serb fighters with 80s Russian weaponry.
I am not surprised that China, Iran and Russia are using Anti-Stealth technology.

No weapon system is immune. Now, do you know why it was shot down?

alucard13mm
02-20-2016, 09:51 PM
No weapon system is immune. Now, do you know why it was shot down?

I am guessing when you open the weapons bay doors, you are no longer invisible

Danke
02-20-2016, 10:23 PM
I am guessing when you open the weapons bay doors, you are no longer invisible

Winner.

Brian4Liberty
02-20-2016, 11:41 PM
Remember the Balkan wars anyone?

Yet was rather shoot down by a few Serb fighters with 80s Russian weaponry.
I am not surprised that China, Iran and Russia are using Anti-Stealth technology.

Were you there?

r3volution 3.0
02-21-2016, 12:09 AM
The uninvited guest: Chinese sub pops up in middle of U.S. Navy exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced...There have been lots of those incidents, in reality and in war games.

For all intents and purposes, it's impossible to detect lurking diesel submarines in shallow water.

Between that and land-based anti-ship missiles, much of the world's coastline is now (or will soon be) off-limits to the US Navy in wartime.

Danke
02-21-2016, 12:18 AM
There have been lots of those incidents, in reality and in war games.

For all intents and purposes, it's impossible to detect lurking diesel submarines in shallow water.

Between that and land-based anti-ship missiles, much of the world's coastline is now (or will soon be) off-limits to the US Navy in wartime.

People are so naive lapping this disinformation up.

We need to spend more cause the Chinese are getting the advantage.

r3volution 3.0
02-21-2016, 12:30 AM
People are so naive lapping this disinformation up.

What disinformation?


We need to spend more cause the Chinese are getting the advantage.

No, we don't need to spend more, we could spend much less, but the money should be spent differently. It's not that the carrier based force is ineffective, it's that it's too expensive relative its effectiveness. As long as the USN can afford to spend multiples of all of its potential opponents combined, this doesn't matter (except to the taxpayer). But in a real war against a peer level competitor it's going to be a problem. China isn't a peer level competitor, but it might be in a couple decades.

fatjohn
02-21-2016, 03:57 AM
Lol @ people comparing the performance of 90's technology vs soviet vassal states with outdated 80's soviet technology and extrapolating that to today vs China.

The US clearly squandered their lead. The biggest military advantage between the US and nr 2 was in the 80's / 90's.

Hell the eurofighter eats the F-35 for lunch. And the F-22 is hardly relevant since their are only 180 are available.

DisneyFan
02-21-2016, 06:17 AM
The F-22 is an amazing bird. The F-35 is an embarrassment.

alucard13mm
02-21-2016, 06:32 AM
Winner.

Probably the same principle with the stealth aircraft's tail. Just more surface area for radar to reflect off of. I would assume the B2 bomber has superb stealth capabilities since it doesnt have a tail sticking out from the end of the aircraft.

Dont think you can have near complete stealth unless someone makes weapons that doesnt involve opening bay doors and doesnt involve sticking weapons onto the hardpoints of the wings. .... or rofl, design missiles that are stealthy rofl. Some weird triangle shape that spins? haha

r3volution 3.0
02-21-2016, 05:07 PM
Related thread: The Aircraft Carrier Is Obsolete (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?465679-The-Aircraft-Carrier-Is-Obsolete&p=6139979#post6139979)