What's next for the liberty movement?

[Bryan]

With Rand's campaign now behind us there have been questions about the next steps of the site and the liberty movement in general. How can we build towards liberty? What is the best thing to do?

These are questions that I have given serious thought to and there is a lot that I'd like to see done and be a part of. Real progress however is going to take a team effort so I am seeking site members who are interested in collaborating.


If you are potentially interested in collaborating on an initiative please send me a PM and we'll go from there.


Thank you.


Bryan

[Isaac Bickerstaff]

Right here

http://gersonforcongress.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Gerson_header_Stripe-3.0.jpg

http://gersonforcongress.com/

[Southron]

Local/state elections have taken a back seat far too long IMO. I think most of the focus should be there. Good leaders will rise up from there.

[fr33]

Stop acting like the Republican party gives a shit about liberty. As far as bills go; we have nothing to show for it. As far as politicians go; we have Rand Paul, Thomas Massie, and Justin Amash. What have they accomplished? Not much. No bills passed and a lot of "no" votes.

[sdsubball23]

Stop acting like the Republican party gives a shit about liberty. As far as bills go; we have nothing to show for it. As far as politicians go; we have Rand Paul, Thomas Massie, and Justin Amash. What have they accomplished? Not much. No bills passed and a lot of "no" votes.

Individual members don't pass bills, it's a team effort. Unfortunately the team hasn't been passing some of the bills.

We need to build a good team that is on the same page.

Also, we have to find a way to influence the mainstream media. They are too powerful at shaping public opinion.

[groverblue]

I think that we all need to pull our resources and choose ONE liberty candidates to support for the Senate.

According to this article (https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20130313/02101422307/how-much-does-it-cost-to-win-election-to-congress.shtml):



The folks over at MapLight recently used Federal Elections Commission data on the 2012 elections to work out just how much it costs to win a seat in Congress:

* House members, on average, each raised $1,689,580, an average of $2,315 every day during the 2012 cycle.
* Senators, on average, each raised $10,476,451, an average of $14,351 every day during the 2012 cycle.


Keep in mind that those number include the primary & general.

Can we get someone to challenge McCain or Graham?

So, ladies and gentlemen, let's choose wisely.

[hells_unicorn]

Stop acting like the Republican party gives a shit about liberty. As far as bills go; we have nothing to show for it. As far as politicians go; we have Rand Paul, Thomas Massie, and Justin Amash. What have they accomplished? Not much. No bills passed and a lot of "no" votes.

You do realize that it takes a lot more than 1 senator and 2 congressmen to pass bills, right? The best you can hope for with such tiny numbers is a lot of "no" votes. Electing more people like them should be our chief aim, and doing so in the GOP makes a lot more sense than trying some futile 3rd party venture that will go nowhere.

[groverblue]

You do realize that it takes a lot more than 1 senator and 2 congressmen to pass bills, right? The best you can hope for with such tiny numbers is a lot of "no" votes. Electing more people like them should be our chief aim, and doing so in the GOP makes a lot more sense than trying some futile 3rd party venture that will go nowhere.

I agree. Third Party won't have any relevancy until we dismantle the Presidential Debate Commission that eliminates all third candidates.

[Bitcoin SEO Technologies]

Bryan, I'm a site administrator. I'd like to coordinate with whatever you have in mind.

And from the look of the polls this year, we have a lot of education to do.

[invisible]

Local/state elections have taken a back seat far too long IMO. I think most of the focus should be there. Good leaders will rise up from there.

THIS! Go with the advice that Ron Paul gave us back in 2008. Focus on getting more Ron / Rand supporters into office at the state and local levels, and of course a few more in Congress can't hurt. We've been making incremental gains in getting good people in office since 2008. We need more Massies, Amashes, Rands, Lees, Yohos, and Gunnys. Massie started out at the County level, and where is he now? When mitch retires, where do you think he will end up? THIS is how we win! Forget all about the Presidential race for this election, we can still get good candidates on the ballots in many places and chalk up wins this year while attention is focused on cruz / trump / sanders. Just go into midterm mode, like we've done here before in 2010 and 2014.

[IDefendThePlatform]

The best hope for actual progress towards liberty is the movements that bring liberty-minded people together in specific geographic areas. I'd like to see more about the multiple efforts currently doing this, as well as future projects:

- Free State Project
- Austin movement
- Peaceful parenting city (was somewhere in North Carolina or Tennessee I thought)
- Jeff Berwick Anarchist movement Acapulco, Mexico
- Free State Project West/Wyoming
- Galt's Gulch Chile
- Fort Galt Chile
- any new or proposed projects or concentrations of liberty-minded people (more choices lets more liberty activists find a good fit for themselves and increases everyone's impact)

There's been a lot of books written recently on the effectiveness and advantages of network/multiplier effects that cause certain industries to consolidate in the same geographic region (tech in Silicon Valley, finance in New York and Charlotte, music in Nashville, etc) and it's the same or even more pronounced for liberty activism. Not everyone can move but even people who stay in less active, less liberty friendly places can still contribute.

Its much, much more than just getting enough people in an area to win votes. The multiplier effects of living near other people working on solving the same problems is incredibly important and something the liberty movement absolutely needs to take advantage of.

[Dianne]

Stop acting like the Republican party gives a shit about liberty. As far as bills go; we have nothing to show for it. As far as politicians go; we have Rand Paul, Thomas Massie, and Justin Amash. What have they accomplished? Not much. No bills passed and a lot of "no" votes.

Nothing passes because the rest of the Congress is bullshit. Our focus should be getting rid of these guys. Challengers to McConnell, Ryan, McCain, Graham, just to name a few, should be supported by us vigorously. Greg Brannon versus Richard Burr right now is a prime example of where energy should go. Let's take them down one at a time.

[Xerographica]

Its much, much more than just getting enough people in an area to win votes. The multiplier effects of living near other people working on solving the same problems is incredibly important and something the liberty movement absolutely needs to take advantage of.

I like that you mentioned multiplier effects... but it's "quaint" to believe that our two heads have to be in physical proximity to each other. Right now your head is in Iowa and my head is in California. Yet... here we are putting our heads together. Our two heads are better than one even though our heads are many miles apart.

What we can't do in this virtual space is spend. We can vote (rep)... but we can't spend. Does it make a difference that we can't spend? Well... it means that this virtual space isn't a market. Which is a problem because markets utilize infinitely more information than the alternative systems.

Imagine that every member on this forum was stranded together on an island. We could talk with each other... and rep each other... but we couldn't trade with each other. Would this be a good system? Of course not... it would be infinitely better if we could trade with each other. It would be infinitely better if we had a market on the island rather than a democracy.

It should be pretty straightforward that larger markets are better than smaller markets. No matter how large a physical market you created with libertarians... you could always create a larger virtual market.

Here are two way to turn this virtual space into a market...

1. Facilitate micropayments... Micropay, Vote Or Dance For Quality Content (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?474932-Micropay-Vote-Or-Dance-For-Quality-Content)

2. Crowdfund advertisements. Right now the banner ad immediately above me says, "Building Futures... Medical Assistant". It's a stupid ad because it's entirely irrelevant to my preferences. Also... I'm guessing that these ads are the reason why this website utilizes so much of my computers resources. I just started writing this on another forum and, as a result, the resource usage plummeted.

Anyways, imagine if there was a page on this forum with links. I could paypal Bryan $5 dollars and he would add a link to my blog to the page. You could paypal Bryan $6 dollars and he would place a link to your blog above the link to my blog. If I received enough traffic from this website... then I would send Bryan another $5 dollars and he would place my link above your link. If somebody preferred your blog... then they could paypal Bryan and say, "Here's $5 dollars... add it to IDefendThePlatform's link."

The top 5 or so most funded links would be displayed on this website's homepage. Can you guess which links they would be? Why would you want to settle for guessing rather than knowing? Wouldn't you want to know which websites are the most valuable to the liberty movement? How could this information not be important?

All the liberty movement needs to do in order to win is to do a better job of accessing and utilizing the available information. Members of the liberty movement really don't need to be in the same general physical space in order to accomplish this. Thank goodness! All we need to do is to turn this virtual space into a market.

[IDefendThePlatform]

The best hope for actual progress towards liberty is the movements that bring liberty-minded people together in specific geographic areas. I'd like to see more about the multiple efforts currently doing this, as well as future projects:

- Free State Project
- Austin movement
- Peaceful parenting city (was somewhere in North Carolina or Tennessee I thought)
- Jeff Berwick Anarchist movement Acapulco, Mexico
- Free State Project West/Wyoming
- Galt's Gulch Chile
- Fort Galt Chile
- any new or proposed projects or concentrations of liberty-minded people (more choices lets more liberty activists find a good fit for themselves and increases everyone's impact)

There's been a lot of books written recently on the effectiveness and advantages of network/multiplier effects that cause certain industries to consolidate in the same geographic region (tech in Silicon Valley, finance in New York and Charlotte, music in Nashville, etc) and it's the same or even more pronounced for liberty activism. Not everyone can move but even people who stay in less active, less liberty friendly places can still contribute.

Its much, much more than just getting enough people in an area to win votes. The multiplier effects of living near other people working on solving the same problems is incredibly important and something the liberty movement absolutely needs to take advantage of.


More on the positive multiplier effects of living near other people working in the same industries:
https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/insights/enrico-moretti-geography-jobs

[IDefendThePlatform]

I like that you mentioned multiplier effects... but it's "quaint" to believe that our two heads have to be in physical proximity to each other. Right now your head is in Iowa and my head is in California. Yet... here we are putting our heads together. Our two heads are better than one even though our heads are many miles apart.

What we can't do in this virtual space is spend. We can vote (rep)... but we can't spend. Does it make a difference that we can't spend? Well... it means that this virtual space isn't a market. Which is a problem because markets utilize infinitely more information than the alternative systems.

Imagine that every member on this forum was stranded together on an island. We could talk with each other... and rep each other... but we couldn't trade with each other. Would this be a good system? Of course not... it would be infinitely better if we could trade with each other. It would be infinitely better if we had a market on the island rather than a democracy.

It should be pretty straightforward that larger markets are better than smaller markets. No matter how large a physical market you created with libertarians... you could always create a larger virtual market.

Here are two way to turn this virtual space into a market...

1. Facilitate micropayments... Micropay, Vote Or Dance For Quality Content (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?474932-Micropay-Vote-Or-Dance-For-Quality-Content)

2. Crowdfund advertisements. Right now the banner ad immediately above me says, "Building Futures... Medical Assistant". It's a stupid ad because it's entirely irrelevant to my preferences. Also... I'm guessing that these ads are the reason why this website utilizes so much of my computers resources. I just started writing this on another forum and, as a result, the resource usage plummeted.

Anyways, imagine if there was a page on this forum with links. I could paypal Bryan $5 dollars and he would add a link to my blog to the page. You could paypal Bryan $6 dollars and he would place a link to your blog above the link to my blog. If I received enough traffic from this website... then I would send Bryan another $5 dollars and he would place my link above your link. If somebody preferred your blog... then they could paypal Bryan and say, "Here's $5 dollars... add it to IDefendThePlatform's link."

The top 5 or so most funded links would be displayed on this website's homepage. Can you guess which links they would be? Why would you want to settle for guessing rather than knowing? Wouldn't you want to know which websites are the most valuable to the liberty movement? How could this information not be important?

All the liberty movement needs to do in order to win is to do a better job of accessing and utilizing the available information. Members of the liberty movement really don't need to be in the same general physical space in order to accomplish this. Thank goodness! All we need to do is to turn this virtual space into a market.

There's still no substitute for physical proximity. Even the most tech-intensive, abstract fields do better when concentrated in geographic clusters, i.e. Silicon Valley. Some of the major advantages of this proximity are in that link I just posted. Examples are just the simple frequency of face to face meetings and discussions, the energy we all get from being around like minded people, always having a diversity of other activists to work with and draw on for support, the "10% effect" where all that's needed to bring about real change is to have 10% of people in a given population believing strongly in that one new idea. Technology helps shrink the world in certain ways for sure, but for the vast foreseeable future there will continue to be myriad advantages to physical geographic proximity.

[Mike4Freedom]

The site is great the way it is. It lets us have a discussion about great ideas. I am fortunate to have some close friends that are hardcore liberty lovers. It is nice to have this forum as well.

Now on to the difficult question. How to acquire more liberty? I think it lies in the future. The young people that will eventually be middle aged and old people. They get their media from internet articles, streaming media, social media and web forums. The generation that gets their news from the TV and newspapers are fading. As it stands it is extremely difficult to break people like this from the propaganda that controls their minds.

So we need to work on new ways to capture the young generation and not just voting age eligible. Talk to kids that are in their teens about liberty. Their minds will be more receptive.

Liberty is something we cannot achieve in four years it will take generations as it took generations to get us into this form of fascism we find ourselves in.

So, onto some actions you can take.

1. Cancel your cable TV! Go internet only, get an antenna for basic channels over the air, Netflix for streaming(Making a murder is really waking young people up), Also Truth in media by Ben Swann is a great news source.
2. Do not vote for the lesser of the two evils it is better to stay home and abstain from voting unless it is someone that will advance liberty.
3. Get out of debt. The economy will not improve so if you are not loaded with debt it will help with the harder times ahead.
4. Grow a garden. If you can get to the point where at least 20% - 40% of your food comes from your backyard you have gained a little bit of food independence.
3. Donate to liberty causes, truth in media, this forum(I still haven,t donated but I will, lol) and many others. If your church does community outreach donate to them as well.
4. Buy some gold,silver, have some physical cash no more then 25% of your portfolio
5. Own at least one firearm and learn how to use it
6. If you have kids do not put them in public brainwashing organizations(Public Schools) Home school or private school

Also, I would recommend not supporting personalities that are using the Liberty movement for wealth and power such as:

Alex Jones, Stefan Molyneux, Lew Rockwell, Justin Raimando, Curt Shultz(he is the superbrochure guy), and a few others. Some people on this list minus Alex claim to be purists yet they support an authoritarian fascist(Trump). They do not come out and endorse him but they post pro trump articles. They see the Trump movement as a way to increase their website viewership.

I understand it, but the fact is that we had a liberty candidate running, Rand Paul, and most of these personalities would shit all over his efforts because of minor disagreements.

I do not know if I can trust these people again.

Ok, If I think of anything else I will post it. Have a nice day.

[IDefendThePlatform]

Heck this website is an example of physical proximity. Josh and Bryan met Face to Face at a local meetup and that's what gave them the energy and determination to make this thing a reality.
Facebook was invented because Mark Zuckerberg met face to face with the winklevosses and they discussed an idea. Sometimes lone individuals come up with great ideas on their own but they almost always have been incubated with physical discussions and experiences with other people, not solely rooted online. Until we're all living our lives in virtual reality suits, physical proximity matters.

[robertwerden]

I think we should shift our focus to every other elected seat. Start a liberty score card, and rank every one who is elected or running for election on a scale. Make this site a goto place for people to evaluate candidates and their degree of liberty. Politicians like to tout where their NRA rating is or other private group ratings, so why not offer our own rating system.

[K466]

I suggest repeating what has been most successful for our movement is a top priority.

That is, of course, Ron Paul presidential runs. We need to do that again, with different people (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?489671-Judge-Napolitano-As-Best-2020-Candidate), using Ron Paul's strategy (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?410528-STRATEGY-Three-Essential-Guidelines-for-the-Liberty-Movement&p=4964108). That strategy is something we deliberately did not use in 2016, and I hope we are learning that was a mistake.

Winning smaller political offices has minimal effect and should not be a top priority... it's more something that will happen spontaneously as we change minds across the country. If Ron retired in 2007 instead of running, he would have been a great Congressman but he would not have really helped the liberty movement that much. That only happened when he stepped up to the megaphone of a presidential campaign. We're not going to win by simply changing out the politicians one by one. You can't build a majority like that and not have the underlying support of liberty among the masses.

(Something else we need to prioritize is self-education. I have fallen way behind in book reading myself :/)

[presence]

On thing that has really been on my mind lately is poll and vote tally.

As a programmer I strongly believe that black box online polls (and likely public voting) are HACKED.

I think we should be taking a two pronged approach to this:

1) hacking online polls and publishing our hacks

2) outreach to web poll publishers and local elections to push for open source blockchain voting

[WTLaw]

Don't see the PM feature, but I would be interested in helping out. We can't sit on our hands, thats for sure.

[Xerographica]

There's still no substitute for physical proximity. Even the most tech-intensive, abstract fields do better when concentrated in geographic clusters, i.e. Silicon Valley. Some of the major advantages of this proximity are in that link I just posted. Examples are just the simple frequency of face to face meetings and discussions, the energy we all get from being around like minded people, always having a diversity of other activists to work with and draw on for support, the "10% effect" where all that's needed to bring about real change is to have 10% of people in a given population believing strongly in that one new idea. Technology helps shrink the world in certain ways for sure, but for the vast foreseeable future there will continue to be myriad advantages to physical geographic proximity.

I took a class at UCLA on agglomeration... so I definitely understand the concept. But I also understand the concept of spending. And when I compare the two concepts... I'm pretty sure that spending is infinitely more important.

Check out this libertarian blogroll (http://thelibertarianliquidationist.com/blog-directory/blogroll/). Which of those websites do you value most? Which of those websites do I value most? Does it matter? Does it matter which of those websites are the most valuable to the liberty movement? Of course it matters... which is why the Ron Paul Forums should have its own blogroll that would be sorted by crowdfunding. This is infinitely easier and more valuable than trying to get a bunch of libertarians to move to New Hampshire or Honduras.

When I was stationed in Afghanistan... I quickly realized that the war wasn't about more soldiers or bigger bombs... it was about information. And we sucked at organizing information. We just happened to suck slightly less than our opponents.

Right now the liberty movement is just as bad as its opponents at organizing information. We produce a heck of a lot of information... but we fail to sort it according to its value to the movement. As a result... valuable information is buried under mountains and mountains of worthless information. We need to use our money to dig the most valuable information from beneath the mountain and make it as accessible as possible.

[Peace&Freedom]

I echo the comments on the need to focus more on state and local campaigns, and national projects that restore constitutional governance (i.e., strict limits on the federal government). We should add electing more constitutional sheriffs (to head off more fed land grabs and tragedies like the Oregon standoff), and more locally-geared "Free Town Projects" to elect liberty town or city councils in places where they appoint the sheriffs.

In terms of national candidates, we've got to field pro-liberty candidates who are also conservative evangelicals, and/or Tea Party fiscal populists, especially in Iowa or New Hampshire region, in order to have more built-in access to the major voting blocs needed to win the early primary contests.

[DavesNotHere]

How can we build towards liberty? What is the best thing to do?

I see spreading truth among all the MSM lies, as the path towards liberty. To me (a no-body here), this site is a valuable source of alternative information, with a nice collection of interesting people- priceless.

Note- I live in California, so voting has ALWAYS been as pointless as the politicians that end up in office. One example- as a boy, I picketed Barbra Boxer's office with my mother... many years (and votes) later BB rules on.

IMO little truth drips are the answer to spreading liberty...
http://sd.keepcalm-o-matic.co.uk/i/dripping-water-hollows-out-stone-not-through-force-but-through-persistence.png

[r3volution 3.0]

As other have said, Congressional, State, and local races should be given higher priority.

We need to not only identify libertarian/libertarian-ish candidates already running, we need to build up a stable of people to run.

A Rand Paul, who goes from doctor straight to US Senator, is quite unusual. Most politicians pass through the maius maiorum: county/municipal, state, federal.

It's pretty easy/cheap to win local races in most parts of the country (i.e. not major cities), state too.

Say if we want a majority in the US House in the future, that's 218 Reps.

We need a multiple of that number in state legislatures (only the best of the bunch would go on to federal office).

And, in turn, a multiple of that number in local government (only the best of those go on to state office).

Our failure to elect enough of our people is often explained in terms of money and media, which is certainly a huge factor, but we also lack qualified candidates. Build up the stable. This approach will also give our movement some much needed confidence and momentum; we will actually start winning more elections than we lose, even if most are lower level offices.

P.S. For an idea of how much bang for the buck we could get on state-level campaigns:

http://classic.followthemoney.org//press/ReportView.phtml?r=420&ext=2



Legislative Chamber
Number of Candidates in the General Election
Average Raised
Median Raised


Senate
2,266
$157,699
$55,501


House/Assembly
8,883
$68,490
$20,540


TOTAL
11,149
$86,622
$25,165



So, with a mere $1 million per cycle, for instance, we could run as many as 50 state legislative candidates.

...and it gets cheaper over time: it costs a lot less to defend a seat than to win one in the first place.

Which States to target?



State
Senate Total
Senate Average

House Total
House Average


Alaska
$862,007
$86,201

$2,728,693
$68,217


Arizona
$2,549,830
$84,994

$4,677,152
$155,905


Arkansas
$2,017,603
$112,089

$4,236,952
$42,370


California
$28,245,063
$1,412,253

$71,079,242
$888,491


Colorado
$2,401,834
$126,412

$5,341,734
$82,181


Connecticut
$5,207,196
$144,644

$5,262,324
$34,850


Delaware
$1,000,905
$100,090

$2,286,889
$55,778


Florida
$11,259,735
$536,178

$25,876,533
$215,638


Georgia
$6,258,805
$111,764

$11,538,108
$64,101


Hawaii
$1,930,180
$160,848

$2,791,154
$54,729


Idaho
$1,535,698
$43,877

$2,376,609
$33,952


Illinois
$22,733,532
$568,338

$39,569,825
$335,338


Indiana
$3,480,374
$139,215

$16,654,890
$166,549


Iowa
$5,042,923
$201,717

$15,269,249
$152,692


Kansas
$5,204,004
$130,100

$5,015,513
$40,124


Kentucky
$4,840,809
$254,779

$4,726,520
$47,265


Louisiana
$16,687,268
$427,879

$19,770,577
$190,102


Maine
$1,775,707
$50,734

$1,632,899
$10,814


Massachusetts
$7,361,231
$184,031

$12,484,305
$78,027


Michigan
N/A
N/A

$13,062,027
$118,746


Minnesota
N/A
N/A

$8,191,541
$61,131


Mississippi
$4,544,606
$87,396

$5,529,492
$45,324


Missouri
$7,480,507
$440,030

$13,127,303
$80,536


Montana
$668,772
$26,751

$1,609,957
$16,100


Nebraska
$2,874,728
$110,566

N/A
N/A


Nevada
$4,429,850
$442,985

$7,843,936
$186,760


New Hampshire
$2,524,485
$105,187

$460,594
$4,472


New Jersey
$22,013,042
$550,326

$19,183,526
$479,588


New Mexico
$3,519,670
$83,802

$3,621,026
$51,729


New York
$43,866,132
$707,518

$21,566,093
$143,774


North Carolina
$14,530,667
$290,613

$13,215,479
$110,129


North Dakota
$437,998
$19,043

$395,533
$17,197


Ohio
$10,519,593
$657,475

$33,231,610
$335,673


Oklahoma
$6,607,587
$275,316

$9,554,982
$94,604


Oregon
$2,735,938
$170,996

$15,927,576
$265,460


Pennsylvania
$19,325,222
$773,009

$43,286,041
$213,232


Rhode Island
$1,540,254
$40,533

$2,357,104
$31,428


South Carolina
$8,936,420
$194,270

$6,682,497
$53,891


South Dakota
$1,956,772
$55,908

$1,380,636
$37,314


Tennessee
$6,525,315
$407,832

$7,931,285
$80,114


Texas
$17,582,391
$1,172,159

$64,472,778
$429,819


Utah
$2,039,254
$135,950

$3,439,687
$45,862


Vermont
$403,797
$31,061

$778,987
$7,213


Virginia
$29,672,959
$741,824

$31,530,213
$315,302


Washington
$6,030,548
$231,944

$14,774,173
$150,757


West Virginia
$1,887,409
$111,024

$3,551,687
$61,236


Wisconsin
$4,072,434
$254,527

$7,655,752
$77,331


Wyoming
$224,039
$14,002

$719,877
$11,998



Cross reference this information with the states where Ron did best, where C4L, YAL et al have the most members, and other relevant factors about either the ease of winning or the benefits of doing so (e.g. states that are earlier in the Presidential primary process might be weighted more heavily, all else being equal), and we can make a ranked list of states in which we should focus our efforts.

[Deborah K]

Those who still believe in the electoral process should consider getting term limits for congress passed. I know all the arguments against it. But there aren't enough good guys to make it worth allowing all the career-corrupt-creeps to continue ruining this country. A movement has already started for it.

[65fastback2+2]

Can we get someone to challenge McCain or Graham?


Kelly Ward is challenging McCain and doing a good job so far.

[65fastback2+2]

I think we need to start more basic than even state and local campaigns.

We need to start with simple liberty education. No one will vote for anyone without being enlightened to freedom.

[Suzanimal]

I think we need to start more basic than even state and local campaigns.

We need to start with simple liberty education. No one will vote for anyone without being enlightened to freedom.

This ^^^

[angelatc]

THIS! Go with the advice that Ron Paul gave us back in 2008. Focus on getting more Ron / Rand supporters into office at the state and local levels, and of course a few more in Congress can't hurt. We've been making incremental gains in getting good people in office since 2008. We need more Massies, Amashes, Rands, Lees, Yohos, and Gunnys. Massie started out at the County level, and where is he now? When mitch retires, where do you think he will end up? THIS is how we win! Forget all about the Presidential race for this election, we can still get good candidates on the ballots in many places and chalk up wins this year while attention is focused on cruz / trump / sanders. Just go into midterm mode, like we've done here before in 2010 and 2014.

I am too busy in my real life to do anything but try to earn a living. But I agree with this.

I got a feedback from someone who said that working inside the system was never going to work. But the left has made it work. I think that we have to start from the bottom up, and getting legislators elected at the state and local level is the best way to lay the groundwork for future victories.

[69360]

Now that Rand is done, people should just do what they think is best. Trying to unite all the people on this forum is like herding cats.

Honestly at this point just look out for you and your own the best you can while waiting to see how events play out.

[jmdrake]

We should quit focusing all of our efforts on representative democracy and start looking at direct democracy. I'm talking about ballot initiatives. Look at what happened in Colorado with the change of marijuana laws? That totally went under my radar and I never saw any real move among the so called "Liberty" movement to back it. The push in Colorado was led by Tom Tancredo, someone that most of us considered a "neocon" and an enemy of Ron Paul when they both ran in 2008. And who fought against legalization of marijuana? Why none other than the Campaign For Liberty endorsed Ken Buck! My point is that when we are talking about issues, rather than parties, it's easier to build the types of coalitions needed to make real change. Recently a republican senator in Tennessee proposed legislation to legalize pot for the treatment of vets with PTSD. Some folks here were critical. "That's not fair! Why not legalize it for everybody?" Because in the Tennessee state legislature, a law limited to vets is probably the only thing that could actually pass. And that stands little chance of passage. But 75% of Tennesseans support medical marijuana!

See: https://www.mpp.org/states/tennessee/ If this was a ballot initiative, instead of a piece of legislation, it would pass by a landslide. But when people go to the polls to pick their "representatives", single issues usually aren't on the top of their list. In fact most people don't even know the name of their state representatives. And these people in power count on such ignorance. They know Tennessee is a "red state" and as long as they can get through the primary process one time, get elected as a republican (or a democrat in the state's democratic pockets), they've got a cushy job for life.

Some (like the now departed from RPF Matt Collins) are against ballot initiatives because of what I can only describe as "principled stupidity." Matt's my bud, but he was wrong as hell on this. The argument is "Well if people vote for laws directly they will vote to raise other people's taxes." Only....ballot initiatives are the law in all 50 states and typically ballot initiatives that say "Let's raise taxes" fail. In fact there have been ballot initiatives in Tennessee to lower the power of the state to raise taxes. (See: https://ballotpedia.org/Tennessee_Income_Tax_Prohibition,_Amendment_3_%282 014%29)

So here's my proposal.

1) Let's identify ballot initiatives that we'd like to see passed in all 50 states. Like kicking out the TSA from state airports. Or strengthening the 2nd amendment at the state level. Or decriminalizing medicinal and/or recreational marijuana. Or limiting the power of local police to receive military style weapons from the federal government. Or barring local police from cooperating with federal "fusion centers."

2) Let's find out how to get issues on the ballot in each state.

3) Let's work towards that goal.

Sure, that doesn't get the federal reserve audited, but it could to a lot to restore liberty.

[iNoob]

We need to draft Ron Paul for president in 2020.

[navy-vet]

THIS! Go with the advice that Ron Paul gave us back in 2008. Focus on getting more Ron / Rand supporters into office at the state and local levels, and of course a few more in Congress can't hurt. We've been making incremental gains in getting good people in office since 2008. We need more Massies, Amashes, Rands, Lees, Yohos, and Gunnys. Massie started out at the County level, and where is he now? When mitch retires, where do you think he will end up? THIS is how we win! Forget all about the Presidential race for this election, we can still get good candidates on the ballots in many places and chalk up wins this year while attention is focused on cruz / trump / sanders. Just go into midterm mode, like we've done here before in 2010 and 2014.
Yes.

[squirl22]

1) Let's identify ballot initiatives that we'd like to see passed in all 50 states. Like kicking out the TSA from state airports. Or strengthening the 2nd amendment at the state level. Or decriminalizing medicinal and/or recreational marijuana. Or limiting the power of local police to receive military style weapons from the federal government. Or barring local police from cooperating with federal "fusion centers."

2) Let's find out how to get issues on the ballot in each state.

3) Let's work towards that goal.

These are all very good ideas. Initiative and referendum at the local level is pure populism at work and the courts are very hesitant to overturn this type of thing. It was very powerful in Maine, where I used to live, but here in the south, NC, the people are very submissive....I have no idea why, maybe a result of losing the civil war and reconstruction, but the state governments don't even like their own residents...more laws than anywhere else I've ever lived.

I agree with the ideas of starting at the local levels and working up, but also, I would not give up on the federal level. It took the left from 1965 to 2008 to finally control the Democratic Party...but they did succeed. So take heart...it's a long haul.

Finally, I really do not think one can change the tide of history through electoral politics. I had this sense with Obama's election that some how it was destiny..a cycle, it could not be thwarted. But, it is still important to have people in place for when it does start to turn. Right now, it seems to me, and me only, that it would take a major event to slow down the progression of big government. Something on the level of 9/11 but with the opposite effect, but I have very little idea of what that could be. Maybe an economic collapse of some kind that would force people to fend for themselves? Something that would stop the flow of money from the federal government forcing states and individuals to live within their means? I don't know...anyone have any ideas? I'm interested.

[P3ter_Griffin]

Hey Bryan, I haven't been on my computer so I haven't been able to PM you but I am interested in hearing what you're thinking and going from there. Thanks to you, your staff, and volunteers for maintaining RPF. I have so much respect for y'all that I am excited to hear what RPF has in store.

[Dianne]

Those who still believe in the electoral process should consider getting term limits for congress passed. I know all the arguments against it. But there aren't enough good guys to make it worth allowing all the career-corrupt-creeps to continue ruining this country. A movement has already started for it.

I agree completely. Maybe we can create a petition large enough to force it to be voted upon.

[RonPaulIsGreat]

If we had any sense we'd invest all this time and effort into a productive income generating business. Then the successful people would be libertarians, as opposed to nuts on the interwebz, then we could simply buy the politicians which are all for sale anyway. "Normal" people as in apathetic sociopaths don't give a shit about freedom, and that is in my estimation 80% of the population. They care about food, housing, pussy, and entertainment. Good luck convincing them to do anything that interferes with any of those things.

PEOPLE DO NOT CARE ABOUT FREEDOM....

[fr33]

Nothing passes because the rest of the Congress is bullshit. Our focus should be getting rid of these guys. Challengers to McConnell, Ryan, McCain, Graham, just to name a few, should be supported by us vigorously. Greg Brannon versus Richard Burr right now is a prime example of where energy should go. Let's take them down one at a time.

I agree but party politics works to prevent this from happening. Both Rand and Ron endorsed terrible Republican candidates in their career because their party requires them to.

[VIDEODROME]

We should quit focusing all of our efforts on representative democracy and start looking at direct democracy. I'm talking about ballot initiatives. Look at what happened in Colorado with the change of marijuana laws? That totally went under my radar and I never saw any real move among the so called "Liberty" movement to back it. The push in Colorado was led by Tom Tancredo, someone that most of us considered a "neocon" and an enemy of Ron Paul when they both ran in 2008. And who fought against legalization of marijuana? Why none other than the Campaign For Liberty endorsed Ken Buck! My point is that when we are talking about issues, rather than parties, it's easier to build the types of coalitions needed to make real change. Recently a republican senator in Tennessee proposed legislation to legalize pot for the treatment of vets with PTSD. Some folks here were critical. "That's not fair! Why not legalize it for everybody?" Because in the Tennessee state legislature, a law limited to vets is probably the only thing that could actually pass. And that stands little chance of passage. But 75% of Tennesseans support medical marijuana!

See: https://www.mpp.org/states/tennessee/ If this was a ballot initiative, instead of a piece of legislation, it would pass by a landslide. But when people go to the polls to pick their "representatives", single issues usually aren't on the top of their list. In fact most people don't even know the name of their state representatives. And these people in power count on such ignorance. They know Tennessee is a "red state" and as long as they can get through the primary process one time, get elected as a republican (or a democrat in the state's democratic pockets), they've got a cushy job for life.

Some (like the now departed from RPF Matt Collins) are against ballot initiatives because of what I can only describe as "principled stupidity." Matt's my bud, but he was wrong as hell on this. The argument is "Well if people vote for laws directly they will vote to raise other people's taxes." Only....ballot initiatives are the law in all 50 states and typically ballot initiatives that say "Let's raise taxes" fail. In fact there have been ballot initiatives in Tennessee to lower the power of the state to raise taxes. (See: https://ballotpedia.org/Tennessee_Income_Tax_Prohibition,_Amendment_3_%282 014%29)

So here's my proposal.

1) Let's identify ballot initiatives that we'd like to see passed in all 50 states. Like kicking out the TSA from state airports. Or strengthening the 2nd amendment at the state level. Or decriminalizing medicinal and/or recreational marijuana. Or limiting the power of local police to receive military style weapons from the federal government. Or barring local police from cooperating with federal "fusion centers."

2) Let's find out how to get issues on the ballot in each state.

3) Let's work towards that goal.

Sure, that doesn't get the federal reserve audited, but it could to a lot to restore liberty.


I've also been wondering if this group could become a kind of Foundation, but wondered if that would be redundant with the other similar groups like Campaign for Liberty, yet it sounds like CFL is inept or misguided.

I dunno maybe this group could run political Kickstarters on issues to raise money and educate.

[Theocrat]

I agree with everyone in this thread who has advocated our getting involved in local, county, and state politics/elections. That's where civil government is closest to the people, anyway. Here are a few ideas that come to mind:

We need to get acquainted with our state constitutions (http://www.constitution.org/cons/usstcons.htm) and start holding our state legislatures accountable for their votes and laws, especially the ones where they allow the federal government to overstep their authority.
At the county level is where we need to start building support for third parties so that one day, hopefully, they will be taken more seriously on the national stage.
We need to attend city council and town hall meetings to learn about the issues which affect our lives daily, issues such as zoning laws, property taxes, and law enforcement initiatives.

[65fastback2+2]

Now that Rand is done, people should just do what they think is best. Trying to unite all the people on this forum is like herding cats.

Honestly at this point just look out for you and your own the best you can while waiting to see how events play out.

They managed to herd cats using lanterns back in the late 1700's...surely we can do better and make as big an impact.

[otherone]

PEOPLE DO NOT CARE ABOUT FREEDOM....

They don't care because they don't know what freedom is.
Frankly, if they did know they wouldn't want it, as it conflicts with their interests.

https://sp.yimg.com/xj/th?id=OIP.Ma0ae6cee1879c835320413e4d484b4c3o0&pid=15.1&P=0&w=300&h=300

[MelissaCato]

Ron Paul 2016 !!!!

[osan]

With Rand's campaign now behind us there have been questions about the next steps of the site and the liberty movement in general. How can we build towards liberty? What is the best thing to do?

These are questions that I have given serious thought to and there is a lot that I'd like to see done and be a part of. Real progress however is going to take a team effort so I am seeking site members who are interested in collaborating.


If you are potentially interested in collaborating on an initiative please send me a PM and we'll go from there.


Thank you.


Bryan

What do you have in mind?

[Unknownuser]

I suggest repeating what has been most successful for our movement is a top priority.

That is, of course, Ron Paul presidential runs. We need to do that again, with different people (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?489671-Judge-Napolitano-As-Best-2020-Candidate), using Ron Paul's strategy (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?410528-STRATEGY-Three-Essential-Guidelines-for-the-Liberty-Movement&p=4964108). That strategy is something we deliberately did not use in 2016, and I hope we are learning that was a mistake.

Winning smaller political offices has minimal effect and should not be a top priority... it's more something that will happen spontaneously as we change minds across the country. If Ron retired in 2007 instead of running, he would have been a great Congressman but he would not have really helped the liberty movement that much. That only happened when he stepped up to the megaphone of a presidential campaign. We're not going to win by simply changing out the politicians one by one. You can't build a majority like that and not have the underlying support of liberty among the masses.



(Something else we need to prioritize is self-education. I have fallen way behind in book reading myself :/)

Actually I think you are wrong here. Winning small offices will have a "trickle up" effect.

[Unknownuser]

I agree with everyone in this thread who has advocated our getting involved in local, county, and state politics/elections. That's where civil government is closest to the people, anyway. Here are a few ideas that come to mind:

We need to get acquainted with our state constitutions (http://www.constitution.org/cons/usstcons.htm) and start holding our state legislatures accountable for their votes and laws, especially the ones where they allow the federal government to overstep their authority.
At the county level is where we need to start building support for third parties so that one day, hopefully, they will be taken more seriously on the national stage.
We need to attend city council and town hall meetings to learn about the issues which affect our lives daily, issues such as zoning laws, property taxes, and law enforcement initiatives.


We need to build Liberty coalitions in each state.

[FrancisMarion]

I agree with the focus being on local and state government.

Repealing the 17th amendment SHOULD get more people involved with who represents them on the state level.

I would guess that a majority of people don't know their own representive in their local councils.

[FrancisMarion]

Does direct democracy through ballot initiatives not frighten you?

What is to keep the population from voting away your individual rights? It's clear that most do not care for freedom now.

[LittleLightShining]

I've given about all I could to "the movement." I think the number one most important thing anyone can do is consciously apply the non-aggression principle on a daily, hourly basis. Focus on being kindhearted toward the people around you. Take time to care for yourself. In this way we back out of the matrix.

For those that still have motivation to expand "the movement" I highly recommend becoming involved with Bernie Sanders' supporters. It's not about Bernie, it's about his supporters, who agree with libertarians much more than they realize. It's the reverse of what we did in Vermont, selling Ron Paul to the left, that must be done. The civil libertarians and freedom advocates that have been facing the right need to get past the GOP and build bridges based on peace with our counterparts on the left.

It's been talked about before but only really showed successful results in Vermont where we actually pursued the alliance. If you'll remember, RP got 25% here in the 2012 primaries.

http://www.rawstory.com/2011/01/progressive-libertarianism-the-exciting-political-dynamic-ralph-nader/ (http://www.rawstory.com/2011/01/progressive-libertarianism-the-exciting-political-dynamic-ralph-nader/)

[satchelmcqueen]

i say we start promoting a 3rd party being allowed in the debates. there has to be a way to break the two party debate format. its unethical and downright shameful the amount of control they have on debates. as one saw this election cycle and last, its all to easy for them to just change the rules, or make up some requirement to get into a debate even if you have a serious campaign. we need a third voice.

[MelissaCato]

This is what I think. :/

We have accomplished on a grade scale most everything that has been mentioned in this thread. We have infiltrated local and state offices in the GOP, local and state government offices too. What we have accomplished for Ron Paul I honestly don't see happening again with a grassroots message on a national stage.

What has happened with Rand and his campaign now that he is suspended .. has chopped up whatever togetherness we did have for him. I've never seen nothing like it, on Facebook anyway. Within hours of his announcing suspension his people were literally endorsing other candidates.

That did not happen with Ron Paul ever. When s*** hit the fan with us we all regrouped without Ron to discuss strategy and tactics. With the Rand people they literally jump ship and skedaddled.

Now don't get me wrong, I donated to Rand Paul too. But for me it was all by default. I'm a die-hard Ron Paul supporter.

In a way I'm kind of hoping Rand suspended his campaign as a tactic to dictate delegates of other candidates. For him to use at a later time. But even then I don't see a delegate strategy working for Rand like I did for his father. Unfortunately.

What I do know is if Ron Paul would announce his presidency before CPAC. Our togetherness will be like nothing this country has ever seen before. The Ron Paul Revolution would be so powerful that there is no words to describe why Ron would not announce.

If you care to know what I think.

[presence]

Please take a look here for some inspiration:

Thread: Built to Last, Good to Great, How the Mighty Fall, and Great by Choice (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?489914-Built-to-Last-Good-to-Great-How-the-Mighty-Fall-and-Great-by-Choice)

[bunklocoempire]

Pop culture. When it's cool to vote against force, we'll see a liberty bully pulpit.

The Daily Show and it's ilk are pathetic, and I believe there is an opportunity for an edgy, in-your face, internet-based comedy type political program.

The more truth you can reveal, the better the art IMO. RPFs humor tells me this. RPF "truth humor" is the best I have come across.

[r3volution 3.0]

This is what I think. :/We have infiltrated local and state offices in the GOP, local and state government offices too.

...not nearly enough.

AFAIK, there are only a handful of libertarian/ish officials in local and state government. We can do much better.


What we have accomplished for Ron Paul I honestly don't see happening again with a grassroots message on a national stage.

Ron's a unique character; it takes 30+ years under just the right conditions to make a Ron. We won't have another for a long time, if ever. But there's no reason why a candidate like Rand (or Amash or Massie or someone yet unknown) couldn't do as well, or much better. What killed us this time, most of all, was the media focus on ISIS and immigration. To do well nationally, we need a cycle more like 2012/2008, where the focus was on economic issues and people were tired of the WOT. So, let's regroup, refocus on some winnable local, state, and congressional races, rebuild our momentum, and we'll see what happens in 2020/2024.

N.B. Foreign policy and immigration issues are much less important in state/local races, another reason to focus on those for the time being.


What I do know is if Ron Paul would announce his presidency before CPAC. Our togetherness will be like nothing this country has ever seen before. The Ron Paul Revolution would be so powerful that there is no words to describe why Ron would not announce.

If you care to know what I think.

Ron would not have done any better in this political environment.

By 2020, Ron will be 84. He's not going to run.

We need to move on.

[VIDEODROME]

I also think the 'Liberty Movement' seems a little vague.

In a Ron Paul group I was in, there was a lot of internal arguing or debating much like I see on this forum, but at least in the end the group would pass the hat and collect money to support Ron Paul with buying signs, bumper stickers, or sign waving. I'm concerned that without the Pauls, what you mostly will have left is the arguing and that this won't be a unified group, but rather many factions who have their own ideas about what Liberty means to them.

Whatever this group does now, it might need a clearly worded Mission Statement listing it's positions. Either this can be new rules drawn up and agreed to, or perhaps merely state this forum is a Libertarian Party group and officially adopt their platform.

http://www.lp.org/platform

Or officially adopt Ron Paul's positions.

http://www.ontheissues.org/Ron_Paul.htm

Or decide if you want to get behind the next Libertarian nominee and adopt their official position.

[MelissaCato]

Or let's just get back to the basics and get Ron Paul in the White House. :)

[K466]

Actually I think you are wrong here. Winning small offices will have a "trickle up" effect.

I never said they didn't: "Winning smaller political offices has minimal effect and should not be a top priority... (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?489851-What-s-next-for-the-liberty-movement&p=6125556#post6125556)"

Tell me if I'm wrong, but I think Ron Paul's Presidential runs did far more for the liberty movement than anything else we have tried. All I'm saying is that we need to make it a priority to do that again. We can still do other stuff too. Running for political office is picking up a megaphone, and I think bigger megaphones are better ;)

[GunnyFreedom]

I suggest repeating what has been most successful for our movement is a top priority.

That is, of course, Ron Paul presidential runs. We need to do that again, with different people (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?489671-Judge-Napolitano-As-Best-2020-Candidate), using Ron Paul's strategy (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?410528-STRATEGY-Three-Essential-Guidelines-for-the-Liberty-Movement&p=4964108). That strategy is something we deliberately did not use in 2016, and I hope we are learning that was a mistake.

Winning smaller political offices has minimal effect and should not be a top priority... it's more something that will happen spontaneously as we change minds across the country. If Ron retired in 2007 instead of running, he would have been a great Congressman but he would not have really helped the liberty movement that much. That only happened when he stepped up to the megaphone of a presidential campaign. We're not going to win by simply changing out the politicians one by one. You can't build a majority like that and not have the underlying support of liberty among the masses.

(Something else we need to prioritize is self-education. I have fallen way behind in book reading myself :/)

You are definitely wrong. The problem is the people do not want liberty. The way to change that, and thus make a liberty President viable, is to change people's minds. The way to change people's minds is to win local offices and demonstrate the effectiveness of liberty. This eliminates the fear, creates desire, and will lead to a liberty victory in the White House.

Until and unless we start working from the bottom up, we can go 100 years and this will never happen. Period.

[Suzanimal]

You are definitely wrong. The problem is the people do not want liberty. The way to change that, and thus make a liberty President viable, is to change people's minds. The way to change people's minds is to win local offices and demonstrate the effectiveness of liberty. This eliminates the fear, creates desire, and will lead to a liberty victory in the White House.

Until and unless we start working from the bottom up, we can go 100 years and this will never happen. Period.

:)


You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to GunnyFreedom again.

[navy-vet]

:)
covered....albeit a rather small token....

[pcosmar]

I would hope that Liberty Forest remains,

Education,, awareness and organization .

I don't think we will change anything from the top down,, but from the bottom up.

Feed the roots.

[Dr.3D]

Just because Rand suspended his campaign, that shouldn't mean we can't vote for him in the primary.

[navy-vet]

Just because Rand suspended his campaign, that shouldn't mean we can't vote for him in the primary.
Absolutely!:)

[Erazer]

- Identifying strong, credible Liberty candidates across the nation for state and federal and re-electing Rand Paul to the U.S. Senate.

[Lucille]

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?489950-The-Austrian-Ron-Paul-on-Hope-for-the-Future


We Don’t Need a Majority

When thinking about all the work we still have to do, it’s important to keep in mind that we don’t need majority support. If you’re waiting for 51 percent of the population to say “I’m libertarian and I believe everything you say,” you’ll lose your mind. What we need for success is intellectual leadership in a country that can influence government and the society overall.

That’s where the progress is being made. We’re only talking about 7 or 8 percent of a country that is necessary to provide the kind of influence you need. This was the case during the American Revolution, and it’s true today. You are part of that 8 percent.

When doing this work, though, there are many things that can be done. People often ask me “what do you want me to do.” My answer is: “do what you want to do.” There is no one way. Some people can use the political system, and others can go into pure education. Lew Rockwell started the Mises Institute, but what you do for the cause of liberty is personal to you, and you have to and what makes sense for you.

[Deborah K]

They managed to herd cats using lanterns back in the late 1700's...surely we can do better and make as big an impact.

Yes they did. And anyway, as my friend Ernie Hancock has said: 'To herd cats, just open up a can of tuna'. The question then becomes: What is our "tuna"?

[invisible]

Yes they did. And anyway, as my friend Ernie Hancock has said: 'To herd cats, just open up a can of tuna'. The question then becomes: What is our "tuna"?

This question becomes much less important at the state or local level, but is certainly still relevant. But at the national level, where being able to capture the "soft support" is necessary, I agree that having a "tuna" (to use your word) would be extremely helpful. There's certainly plenty of possibilities around, see post #10, here:
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?489744-Plan-for-2020-Step-1-find-pornstar

[HVACTech]

Yes they did. And anyway, as my friend Ernie Hancock has said: 'To herd cats, just open up a can of tuna'. The question then becomes: What is our "tuna"?

Liberty, backed by a Constitutional federation. (limited government) is what I thought our choice was.

why was I wrong on that?

[The Rebel Poet]

I don't get why people keep saying we need to focus on local elections or on a Presidential run. Trees need water on the roots AND sunlight on the leaves.

Last year I put up a poll (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?476911-How-Much-Did-Ron-Paul-Teach-You-about-Liberty) here. A combined 56% of respondents first heard about liberty or learned more about it because of Ron's runs, and 28% first learned about liberty directly from Ron because he ran. Running a high profile presidential campaign is just as valuable as running for city counsel and being the lone no vote in your little area. We need to do both at the same time, watering the roots with local victories while we shine light on the leaves with the national spotlight.

[HVACTech]

I don't get why people keep saying we need to focus on local elections or on a Presidential run. Trees need water on the roots AND sunlight on the leaves.

Last year I put up a poll (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?476911-How-Much-Did-Ron-Paul-Teach-You-about-Liberty) here. A combined 56% of respondents first heard about liberty or learned more about it because of Ron's runs, and 28% first learned about liberty directly from Ron because he ran. Running a high profile presidential campaign is just as valuable as running for city counsel and being the lone no vote in your little area. We need to do both at the same time, watering the roots with local victories while we shine light on the leaves with the national spotlight.

Liberty cannot survive on it's own Love. that is why it never has.
Liberty requires responsibility. this is anathema to many. and those types tend to congregate in groups. and then create "states"

this explains why our founders intent, was to use the "state" to limit the states.

[The Rebel Poet]

Liberty, backed by a Constitutional federation. (limited government) is what I thought our choice was.

why was I wrong on that?
Because Ron and Rand both offered exactly that, but only Ron generated big excitement.

[HVACTech]

Because Ron and Rand both offered exactly that, but only Ron generated big excitement.

I got banned for supporting the CONstitution on RPF's

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?485904-The-wisdom-of-federalism-our-Constitution%92s-plan!&p=6068783#post6068783


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdXjm8pZMws

[Deborah K]

Liberty, backed by a Constitutional federation. (limited government) is what I thought our choice was.

why was I wrong on that?

I guess that's not enough "tuna" for most folks. :(

[HVACTech]

I guess that's not enough "tuna" for most folks. :(

ya know... after thinking about it.

I am not so sure that I have ever heard the phrase, "Constitutional Federation" before..... :eek:

[Anti Federalist]

You didn't get banned for supporting the CONstitution, you got temp banned for being a jerk.



I got banned for supporting the CONstitution on RPF's

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?485904-The-wisdom-of-federalism-our-Constitution%92s-plan!&p=6068783#post6068783


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdXjm8pZMws

[Xerographica]

You are definitely wrong. The problem is the people do not want liberty. The way to change that, and thus make a liberty President viable, is to change people's minds. The way to change people's minds is to win local offices and demonstrate the effectiveness of liberty. This eliminates the fear, creates desire, and will lead to a liberty victory in the White House.

Until and unless we start working from the bottom up, we can go 100 years and this will never happen. Period.

Have you seen the show Parks and Rec? I love it. Ron is a pretty wonderful character. Let's pretend that he was a perfect libertarian rather than a spoof of libertarianism. According to you... people would look at Pawnee, Indiana (http://www.pawneeindiana.com/) and think, wow... that city is so great because of Ron. Except... Ron wouldn't be the only city official. There would also be Knope... who is definitely not a libertarian. So if Pawnee does thrive... liberals would give all the credit to Knope while libertarians would give all the credit to Ron.

Just think about all the countries that liberals point to as being examples of successful welfare states (http://fee.org/articles/scandinavian-myths-high-taxes-and-big-spending-are-popular/). They say that Scandinavian countries succeed because of, rather than despite, high taxes.

Rather than try and change a city to reflect libertarian ideals... I think it's better to change a website to reflect libertarian ideas. It would be far easier to accomplish and far easier for people to see the direct correlation between free-market ideals and the website's success.

Like I explained in an earlier post... this forum would have one page that would list websites dedicated to free-market ideas. The websites would be sorted by their value... and their value would be determined by how much the members of this forum were willing to pay for them. For example... here's Cafe Hayek...

http://cafehayek.com/

I'd be willing to give Bryan at least a dollar to add that website to the list. So at first it would look like this...

$1 - Cafe Hayek

If you thought that Cafe Hayek was too low on the list... then you could give Bryan $3 for Cafe Hayek. So then it would look like this...

$4 - Cafe Hayek

By a completely decentralized funding system... aka a "market" (specifically crowdfunding)... we'd sort free-market websites according to their total value.

The top 5 or 10 most valuable websites would be displayed on the homepage of this website.

I'm guessing that you're against the minimum wage? The problem with the minimum wage is that it transmits inaccurate information. The theory being that accurate information is more valuable than inaccurate information. If you agree that accurate information is more valuable... then perhaps you'll agree that it's a good idea to sort liberty websites according to their actual value. If it's a good idea to know the actual value of one resource... such a worker... then it's a good idea to know the actual value of all resources... including websites... and especially websites dedicated to really important topics.... such as freedom.

[MelissaCato]

Shit. Don't forget Russell Means. RIP

[fedupinmo]

Sam Gabbert 2016!

[PRB]

plan for 2020.

[HVACTech]

You didn't get banned for supporting the CONstitution, you got temp banned for being a jerk.

oh! that's Rich!
ROTFLMAO!
on RONPAULforums... the dude who goes by "Anti-Federalist" called ME a jerk! :p

AF abhors the CONstituton. so, what does he support?


Ideally, the "city states" of Renaissance Italy comes to mind.
how will this plan promote Liberty sir? :confused:

Liberty needs protecting. AF, it CANNOT thrive on it's own. History proves this. time and time again.

what the WORLD needs. is a Constitutional Federation. based on Liberty.

[Feeding the Abscess]

Just for the peanut gallery, Ron Paul opined that he would have been an anti-federalist during the drafting of the Constitution, after praising Spooner at a GOP Lincoln dinner.

So when HVACTech is criticizing Anti Federalist for choosing that name on RONPAULforums, know that Ron agrees with Anti Federalist.

[HVACTech]

Just for the peanut gallery, Ron Paul opined that he would have been an anti-federalist during the drafting of the Constitution, after praising Spooner at a GOP Lincoln dinner.

So when HVACTech is criticizing Anti Federalist for choosing that name on RONPAULforums, know that Ron agrees with Anti Federalist.

I can agree with Ron on that.
our Founders were presenting a balanced argument. :)

so, what do Ron, Rand and Thomas Jefferson concur upon?

a Constitutional Federation of "states"

is best for protecting Liberty. :)

this remains true until this very day.

how best would YOU protect Liberty? feeding the abscess?
what a nice name! howsoever did you chose it?
such POWER! such Grace!

"feeding the abscess"
I bet that took a lot of thought. and SO difficult to defend!
or, are you doing that right now? :confused:

[HVACTech]

I would hope that Liberty Forest remains,

Education,, awareness and organization .

I don't think we will change anything from the top down,, but from the bottom up.

Feed the roots.

that sounds like a Servo to me...
small signals CAN control large power.systems.

A servomechanism, sometimes shortened to servo, is an automatic device that uses error-sensing negative feedback to correct the performance of a mechanism and is defined by its function. It usually includes a built-in encoder.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/servomechanism

definitely a good idea sir!

[enhanced_deficit]

This is a very informative, energetic platform of liberty minded folks.. I hope its core message and structure stays intact even if some fine tuning is done with Rand out of the immediate race. Presidential races in US currently remain an illusion for the most part, an unapologetic message candidate like Ron Paul can inspire many and bring about some real change in peoples thinking even without "winning" in the traditional sense.

Keep up the great work!

[osan]

I agree with everyone in this thread who has advocated our getting involved in local, county, and state politics/elections.

All well and good, with the understanding that such endeavors avails us nothing unless there is sufficient mass. Here I would suspect that "sufficient" would have to mean a proportion somewhere in the region of 50% of the people, if not more. This is particularly the case if we accept the reality of a so-called "globalist agenda", which at this point is no longer plausibly regarded as "conspiracy theory".

The self-admitted globalists are at the top of the control heap and have similarly made plain their goal of establishing overarching hegemony over the entire globe. Given that to which we have all born witness, this is some very serious business with vast investment having been devoted to the realization of the goal. I believe all reasonable men would agree that "global" doe not mean "almost global". It thereby follows that Theye would not be looking to spare the United States the mark of their brand. This means that America must be brought to heel.

Therefore, any serious attempt at freeing ourselves would have to possess the power to resist a cabal that has shown its willingness to lay waste entire nations that meet with its displeasure. Americans would have to come into very strong mutual accord in order to hold even the least hope of resisting a power that commands the might of most of the world's nations. Theye've shown themselves capable of anything in terms of intent and will, the only question remaining whether Theye can command or bribe sufficient resources to put America down by force.

I would suggest that anything significantly less than 100% accord of the relevant American subpopulation (fight-capable adults v. children, e.g.) would pose a dire threat to the prospects for a successful break from the self-styled masters. Add to that the fact that Theye would keep at us, year over year in all the usual ways such as economic blockading designed to starve us out. We retain next to no heavy industry, which means we would be in sore trouble were Theye to successfully cut off basics such as oil and steel supplies, just to mention two.

The prospects are indeed grim. Still worth trying, mind you - for living as a slave is no life at all - but let us not fool ourselves into thinking that if Theye can muster the obedient participation of the bulk of nations over a sufficiently long term that America would fall even in the best-case scenario regarding our national will and cohesion.


That's where civil government is closest to the people, anyway. Here are a few ideas that come to mind:



We need to get acquainted with our state constitutions (http://www.constitution.org/cons/usstcons.htm) and start holding our state legislatures accountable for their votes and laws, especially the ones where they allow the federal government to overstep their authority.


This assumes the validity of the documents in question. It further assumes sufficient understanding of proper human relations exists within the confines of each man's skull. I submit that neither assumption is even remotely true.

The case can, however, be made that says America is in dire need of heroic measures in order to save its life. I do, in fact, accept that as unequivocal truth. We need to act first, but only on the understanding that if we throw the vampire from our neck, we will have succeeded in completing but the first step in a laborious and hazard-fraught process of establishing a free land. Understanding freedom, proper human relations, etc. would have to become the next order of business and I remain fearful that attaining such accord in the context of a population the half or more of which has been infected with the disease of entitlement-mind





At the county level is where we need to start building support for third parties so that one day, hopefully, they will be taken more seriously on the national stage.
We need to attend city council and town hall meetings to learn about the issues which affect our lives daily, issues such as zoning laws, property taxes, and law enforcement initiatives.



I accept all this as valid, but insufficient. Without an overarching philosophy of freedom, there is no free land. If we are to reduce America to a hodgepodge of a thousand disjointed principalities constituted in random ways, I see no reason to save the land. If the result is my inability to go from place to place without fear of stepping into the domain of a petty, but dangerous tyrant, I want no part of it. Failure to establish an objectively derived and provably correct set of principles that comprise the universal basis of American life will only end us up in the same place, probably worse off than we now find ourselves. Without getting the basics established, there is no point in even bothering.

[serenitynow]

I was a member of the daily paul back in 2007 and have begun reading this site this year. I registered for this post and to share some thoughts...

The direction of the Liberty Movement must be on setting fires in the minds of men, women, and children. Sure, supporting campaigns is great, but elections are game that the rule-maker will not let you win. We are not at a point where a liberty campaign will succeed. Many people don't have the slightest clue what liberty is and don't want to take a moment to understand the philosophy surrounding it.

We must ignite liberty ideas in their minds. Remember "google Ron Paul?" "End the Wars?" "End the Fed?" "NSA Spying?" "Austrian economics?" "The golden Rule?"
We placed these ideas in the minds of many. We went to every corner of the internet, of our city, and let the truth be known. You can still see remnants of it today when you read an article and the comments are plastered with negativity toward the FED. Where is the passion that drove us to bullhorn this information. We need a uniform front to tackle this. We must be unified at a given time and plaster this country with ideas. We can make the ideas news. The budget is going to be a big issue coming up. Where are we on this. We can attack and stop any support of an unbalanced budget. To do so we need to mobilize and make this the new grandstand. And when were done with that we hit whatever the next need is. Storm the internet and your location with information. Where are the videomakers? Flood the internet with passionate videos about these subjects. Hit the hearts and minds of folks. They are all on the internet. Let our words of liberty and of freedom be there to greet them in the morning, gather with them at lunchtime, and rock them to sleep.

We get behind an idea who's time has come.

[A. Havnes]

I think we should shift our focus to every other elected seat. Start a liberty score card, and rank every one who is elected or running for election on a scale. Make this site a goto place for people to evaluate candidates and their degree of liberty. Politicians like to tout where their NRA rating is or other private group ratings, so why not offer our own rating system.

Yes! We should definitely do this so that it's easier to keep track of who needs support.

We should also be working on local meetups and winning small elections. We really need liberty-minded people in all areas of government. Imagine if we had people like Chuck Baldwin, Gary Johnson, Rand Paul, Ron Paul, and Ross Perot holding seats and offices throughout the country! Some are more socially conservative, some are more socially liberal, but they are all for liberty.

[thoughtomator]

Our "tuna" would be a reinstatement of the Rule of Law and a massive anti-corruption campaign. Country wants it desperately.

Of course, you can expect certain infiltrator-betrayer types that have insinuated themselves amongst us to be kicking and screaming the entire way.

[K466]

You are definitely wrong. The problem is the people do not want liberty. The way to change that, and thus make a liberty President viable, is to change people's minds. The way to change people's minds is to win local offices and demonstrate the effectiveness of liberty. This eliminates the fear, creates desire, and will lead to a liberty victory in the White House.

Until and unless we start working from the bottom up, we can go 100 years and this will never happen. Period.

So Ron Paul was not the biggest mind changer in the past several decades for the cause of liberty?

[HVACTech]

the situation today... is EXACTLY the same as it was in 08.
when I joined this website...

what we did back then, was the "Rally for the Republic"
for me. this offered me a chance to fight back. to flip the establishment Republicans the literal bird!

OMG! I met people from all over the US, in a cow pasture, in Minnesota. and they were ALL dedicated to a LOSING cause!
our Man had dropped out... things looked very much hopeless....

we did it anyhow. and it was way too much fun!

what if we organize something like that again?

[fr33]

what if we organize something like that again?

And again and again and again. We'll accomplish nothing except for deluding ourselves like we've been doing already. We'll find a whole 3 republicans to support maybe.

[BUTSRSLY]

AS IS TYPICAL WITH INTELLIGENT INDIVIDUALS, THIS IS BECOMING OVERLY-COMPLICATED

EACH MUST REVOLUTIONIZE HIS OR HER LIFE WITH DUE CARE AND ENLIGHTENED INSTROSPECTION

BITE OFF THE AMOUNT THAT CAN BE CHEWED

EXAMINE THE SUCCESSFUL... ESCHEW THE HAPHAZARD MYOPES THAT ABOUND, BOUNCING OFF OF EACH OTHER LIKE THE TINY BUBBLES IN THE BEER THAT YOU WON'T STOP DRINKING TO SAVE THE WORLD

[BUTSRSLY]

AND LIBERTYPOGS®

[Mani]

Lots of great ideas in this thread.

I do believe we need to have a multi-pronged effort on the liberty front.

National Liberty politicians are important like Rand, Amish, and Massie because they can get in front of people in Washington and talk about things that are important, like Audit the Fed, and legalization efforts and other things. Their voices are heard much louder than others, so it is still have an important elected officials that are our voice. Rand Paul is able to get the message out a lot better and gets more media attention and respect and credibility amongst his peers on certain issues, and even get people in the public to sway or influence their opinions. He's the only guy talking about unfair jail terms in the war on drugs as a republican. He's talking about decriminalizing MJ. If is PEERS say things like, "I Respect Rand Paul." When the public hears those things then when RAND speaks about liberty topics it is possible the public will take what he has to say and be able to reach those people and change their opinion.

#1) Continue to find and help get liberty minded individuals into Senate and congress seats. Some fights are not has expensive as others. As someone else mentioned, it would be also great to get some early primary officials like NH or IA or NV so that 2020 comes around they can officially endorse RAND Paul or whomever the liberty candidate is in front of the constituents of the entire state.

#2) Continue getting the local level liberty minded candidates in government. Let them sow the seeds at the grassroots level which Ron Paul has preached since day 1.

#3) Get behind ballot initiatives or create ballot initiatives at state level on key issues to help liberty. Such as the legalization efforts which have made huge progress via ballots. Would love to see decriminalization efforts, and other important liberty causes put forth.

#4) Continue to put effort into the bills ALREADY in Washington that are being ignored, delayed, rejected. Ron Paul's banner of freedom and rallying cry for the last 30+ years is AUDIT THE FED! We should not rest until the folks in Washington have their EARS drowning in demands to AUDIT THE FED. We cannot give up the fight! We cannot let up or let them think we have forgotten. Rand Paul has a few liberty minded bills floating around regarding MJ industry being able to use banks. OR Medical MJ. Or rescheduling MJ from the Schedule 1 substance. There are lots of bills out there but not enough momentum to force our elected officials into action. I think we can easily agree AUDIT THE FED is Ron Paul's defining bill and we should continue an effort to move it forward.



It is difficult to put energy into all these efforts, but I believe as some of these efforts arise we can shift our focus as needed.

if AUDIT THE FED is coming up soon in Washington, we should go into major PUSH mode to do whatever it takes to make it happen. If a liberty candidate pops up that has been researched to know he/she fits Rand, Ron, Justin, criteria we go in to push him through. If a major ballot initiative arises we jump into action to do what we can to get it on the ballot and then get the education out there to help it win the vote.



I can see this forum as still being the beacon of liberty and having a long term focus on these 4 areas, but being able to jump into various liberty efforts and make major pushes as issues and worthy causes come forth.

[bunklocoempire]

AND LIBERTYPOGS®

A big amen, 'cause Ron sez keep it fun.

[The Rebel Poet]

So Ron Paul was not the biggest mind changer in the past several decades for the cause of liberty?
Nope. It was that 19-year-old city counsel member who keeps voting to abolish all the zoning laws. :rolleyes:

But I don't entirely disagree with Gunny; I think an all-of-the-above approach is best.

[thoughtomator]

If you want to work within the current system, there's only one goal that makes sense as a top priority: take over the Republican Party. This was the mission we were on in the 2012 cycle and it brought the liberty movement to its peak of influence. The apparent abandonment of this goal has led directly to the diminished movement we see today.

[idiom]

If you want to work within the current system, there's only one goal that makes sense as a top priority: take over the Republican Party. This was the mission we were on in the 2012 cycle and it brought the liberty movement to its peak of influence. The apparent abandonment of this goal has led directly to the diminished movement we see today.

Keep going at it. We need to control at least one state assembly + a governorship. Show that our ideas work in practice.

Fuck 1 city council + a mayoralty. Show that our ideas work, refuse federal funding.

If you do it on a state basis then you could talk about seceding from the GOP. Leaving the GOP is a huge mistake though.

Lets turn some states around.

[Peace&Freedom]

If you want to work within the current system, there's only one goal that makes sense as a top priority: take over the Republican Party. This was the mission we were on in the 2012 cycle and it brought the liberty movement to its peak of influence. The apparent abandonment of this goal has led directly to the diminished movement we see today.

NO, it was the adopting of that strategy that led to the co-opting and neutering of the movement, as immediately evidenced by Rand's compromising approach to even stating a liberty position in the 2016 cycle. The temporary 'influence' the liberty side gained was not respected at all by the party leadership, who immediately yanked back control of most of the positions the Paulites gained circa 2012. The GOP is controlled by $25 billion special interest people like Adelson, every bit as much as the Democrats are by $25 billion special interest people like Soros. The takeover has to be of the system, not one party, in order to work and in order to keep the movement united.

By focusing on one party, the movement abandoned the Democrats and Independents who were first attracted to Ron Paul in 2007-8. It also needlessly divided a grassroots that was based on liberty issues, by the top-down edicts that tried change the mission into 'saving' an Adelson/Koch controlled party. Naturally, the liberty base was cut in half, not expanded by the time Rand tried to run, with many of its voters ultimately being co-opted by Cruz or Trump. Through such devices, the current system is designed to marginalize and defeat alternatives, be they operating inside or outside of the major parties. The current system has to be displaced, not worked within, in order for us to get anywhere.

[idiom]

NO, it was the adopting of that strategy that led to the co-opting and neutering of the movement, as immediately evidenced by Rand's compromising approach to even stating a liberty position in the 2016 cycle. The temporary 'influence' the liberty side gained was not respected at all by the party leadership, who immediately yanked back control of most of the positions the Paulites gained circa 2012. The GOP is controlled by $25 billion special interest people like Adelson, every bit as much as the Democrats are by $25 billion special interest people like Soros. The takeover has to be of the system, not one party, in order to work and in order to keep the movement united.

By focusing on one party, the movement abandoned the Democrats and Independents who were first attracted to Ron Paul in 2007-8. It also needlessly divided a grassroots that was based on liberty issues, by the top-down edicts that tried change the mission into 'saving' an Adelson/Koch controlled party. Naturally, the liberty base was cut in half, not expanded by the time Rand tried to run, with many of its voters ultimately being co-opted by Cruz or Trump. Through such devices, the current system is designed to marginalize and defeat alternatives, be they operating inside or outside of the major parties. The current system has to be displaced, not worked within, in order for us to get anywhere.

As a foreigner looking in, the amount of entrenchment of the parties is fucking grotesque. You have no chance of displacing it sans a violent revolution.

Here nobody I know is "registered" to a party. Party primaries are internal party things, the media doesn't cover them, the government doesn't fund them. Setting up a third party is as easy as falling of a log. Getting on the ballot is so easy that there are a lot of parody and satirical candidates and parties every year. Voters have almost no party loyalty and switch who they will vote for on a whim. If you get 5% of the national party votes you get 5 seats in parliament, so it easy for small one issue party to get representation. We often have 5 to 7 parties in parliament at any one time and a bunch of independents.

Elected officials enjoy no perks and are not above the law in any way. Even the Prime Ministers Motorcade gets in severe trouble if it travels above the speed limit.

Yet given all of this, The two major parties still tend to get 30-50% of the vote each. They have quite entrenched inertia despite having no legal protections. They have to fuck up quite badly to lose traction.

So in America, overthrowing the 2 party system which actively uses legal power to protect the status quo is a god damned pipe dream. Especially with the magical thinking that the LP has. They can't win a mayoralty but think the can just get the Presidency in a walk over and change the world in two weeks.

I mean people here think they are going to win at a brokered fucking convention via popular acclimation.

It doesn't take 5% remnant or even a 25% tireless minority to win. It takes a fucking 80% tsunami to win.

Look at what its going to take Sanders to beat Clinton, and he is an establishment hack from waaay back. He could win every fucking state from here on out and he will still have a cage match at the convention.

We went from one national representative to 3. You are surprised that nothing has changed? It won't make a difference until there are about 20 in the house and 5 in the senate, from either party. That would create a big enough caucus to win centrist amendments by being a disloyal swinging block vote.

No way in hell do you pass an amendment that forces parties to give up federal and state funding, that blocks all state involvement with internal party affairs.

You definitely don't stop Americans en masse from thinking of politics as a tribal blood sport. Culturally Americans care far more about winning than about being right. They see the two as interchangeable. ITs why voter turn out is so low and elections always come down to the ability to get voters to show up.

In my country GOTV isn't a thing that campaigns do. *Everyone* is going to vote anyway. They are going to vote usually for one or two issues, not for any historical support or for a personality.

American "democracy" is a joke. Its an entrenched system that can be slowly altered by chipping away at it. But eventually we are going to have to find $25 billion interests who align with us. They are out there but have no reason to take us seriously yet.

[navy-vet]

As a foreigner looking in, the amount of entrenchment of the parties is fucking grotesque. You have no chance of displacing it sans a violent revolution.

Here nobody I know is "registered" to a party. Party primaries are internal party things, the media doesn't cover them, the government doesn't fund them. Setting up a third party is as easy as falling of a log. Getting on the ballot is so easy that there are a lot of parody and satirical candidates and parties every year. Voters have almost no party loyalty and switch who they will vote for on a whim. If you get 5% of the national party votes you get 5 seats in parliament, so it easy for small one issue party to get representation. We often have 5 to 7 parties in parliament at any one time and a bunch of independents.

Elected officials enjoy no perks and are not above the law in any way. Even the Prime Ministers Motorcade gets in severe trouble if it travels above the speed limit.

Yet given all of this, The two major parties still tend to get 30-50% of the vote each. They have quite entrenched inertia despite having no legal protections. They have to fuck up quite badly to lose traction.

So in America, overthrowing the 2 party system which actively uses legal power to protect the status quo is a god damned pipe dream. Especially with the magical thinking that the LP has. They can't win a mayoralty but think the can just get the Presidency in a walk over and change the world in two weeks.

I mean people here think they are going to win at a brokered fucking convention via popular acclimation.

It doesn't take 5% remnant or even a 25% tireless minority to win. It takes a fucking 80% tsunami to win.

Look at what its going to take Sanders to beat Clinton, and he is an establishment hack from waaay back. He could win every fucking state from here on out and he will still have a cage match at the convention.

We went from one national representative to 3. You are surprised that nothing has changed? It won't make a difference until there are about 20 in the house and 5 in the senate, from either party. That would create a big enough caucus to win centrist amendments by being a disloyal swinging block vote.

No way in hell do you pass an amendment that forces parties to give up federal and state funding, that blocks all state involvement with internal party affairs.

You definitely don't stop Americans en masse from thinking of politics as a tribal blood sport. Culturally Americans care far more about winning than about being right. They see the two as interchangeable. ITs why voter turn out is so low and elections always come down to the ability to get voters to show up.

In my country GOTV isn't a thing that campaigns do. *Everyone* is going to vote anyway. They are going to vote usually for one or two issues, not for any historical support or for a personality.

American "democracy" is a joke. Its an entrenched system that can be slowly altered by chipping away at it. But eventually we are going to have to find $25 billion interests who align with us. They are out there but have no reason to take us seriously yet.
....

[H. E. Panqui]

...the 'liberty' :rolleyes: movement is doomed...even ron paul, a true 'anti-war', anti-drug war, etc., hero, has succumbed to this miserable 'austrian school' economic theory...which says NOTHING about private, secret-squirrel banksters and the privilege they enjoy through 'fractional reserve deposit creation' (outright fraud)..

...all we get from these austrian theorists is more stinking gold bug theories...

(hint for ludwiggers and other monetary ignoramusses: ...a 'gold reserve' monetary system will keep the power$ of monetary creation in the same miserable secret-squirrel hands as it is now!!..as the bankster$ will own the gold/gold mines!!...and mother earth will be torn apart and poisoned if/when the banksters ever decide to 'increase the money supply'...

...the same ignorant republican and democrat f@cks will be in control and future generations will be left with more animas river abominations...

...do yourselves a favor...GET REAL...get some 'monetary realism'...and until you do, stfu about 'economics'... :o

[MelissaCato]

...the 'liberty' :rolleyes: movement is doomed...even ron paul, a true 'anti-war', anti-drug war, etc., hero, has succumbed to this miserable 'austrian school' economic theory...which says NOTHING about private, secret-squirrel banksters and the privilege they enjoy through 'fractional reserve deposit creation' (outright fraud)..

...all we get from these austrian theorists is more stinking gold bug theories...

(hint for ludwiggers and other monetary ignoramusses: ...a 'gold reserve' monetary system will keep the power$ of monetary creation in the same miserable secret-squirrel hands as it is now!!..as the bankster$ will own the gold/gold mines!!...and mother earth will be torn apart and poisoned if/when the banksters ever decide to 'increase the money supply'...

...the same ignorant republican and democrat f@cks will be in control and future generations will be left with more animas river abominations...

...do yourselves a favor...GET REAL...get some 'monetary realism'...and until you do, stfu about 'economics'... :o

:/

[BUTSRSLY]

1. PREPARE SPEECH
2. FIND STREET CORNER