Ben Carson Thinks Joseph Built the Pyramids.... WTF?

[jllundqu]

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/11/05/im-completely-speechless-watch-as-morning-joe-panel-is-momentarily-stunned-silent-by-ben-carsons-egyptian-pyramid-theory/


In resurfaced video snippet of his 1998 commencement address at Andrews University, Ben Carson shared his theory that the biblical Joseph built the Egyptian pyramids for grain storage rather than for burial of the pharaohs — which left the panel of MSNBC’s “Morning Joe” momentarily stunned silent on Thursday

When questioned by reporters on the campaign trail about the old clip, which Buzzfeed found, Carson didn’t back away from his statements, saying it’s still his belief.

“The pyramids were made in a way that they had hermetically sealed compartments,” Carson explained. “You wouldn’t need hermetically sealed compartments for a sepulcher. You would need that if you were trying to preserve grain over a long period of time.”

Here’s the clip from Carson’s address at the school, which is associated with the Seventh-day Adventist Church, along with the “Morning Joe” panel’s reaction:

The panel spent several moments not saying much of anything, laughed a bit and then turned to Eugene Robinson, who said, “I’m completely speechless. What can you say about that?”

Host Joe Scarborough added that Carson’s words open the door for further questions about what the Republican presidential candidate believes.

In this case, I kinda want to know now how old Ben Carson thinks the earth is,” Scarborough said. “If you say something like that you have — for a conservative — opened the door … because this is some really, really quirky stuff.”


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-ZSBr1jTZY

[RandPaul4Prez]

the more he talks like trump, the more his numbers will fall. Love it.

[hells_unicorn]

While I do believe that the Egyptians had to have developed a storage system in order to preserve food during the 7 year famine period, it's a pretty massive stretch to argue that this is what the pyramids were built for, particularly since it's pretty clear that they were being used as royal sepulchers. It's pure speculation at best to assume that they were built for another purpose and then converted into sepulchers later, though it is stipulated that whatever means of preserving grain during this time period would have been overseen by Joseph.

The problem with this is that regardless of whether or not Carson is right or wrong, most people in this country find stuff like this ridiculous and Carson will probably suffer badly among both more orthodox-leaning Evangelicals and skeptics alike as more questions are raised about his SDA background. I've always been confident that Carson would not be the nominee, and this may well be the beginning of a laundry list of problems that will sink him.

[Ronin Truth]

When did the slavery of the Jews in Egypt begin .................................... supposedly?

[Crashland]

It isn't any worse than believing in Noah's ark, IMO, of which there are even more believers.

[DevilsAdvocate]

Yeah....noooo

[LatinsforPaul]

Cuba policy questions stump Ben Carson ahead of Miami book stop (http://miamiherald.typepad.com/nakedpolitics/2015/11/cuba-policy-questions-stump-ben-carson-ahead-of-miami-book-stop.html)


In the Herald interview, Carson appeared stumped by questions about the so-called wet-foot, dry-foot policy, which allows Cubans who reach U.S. soil to remain here, and about the Cuban Adjustment Act, which allows Cubans who arrive in the U.S. to apply for legal residency after 366 days.

He was candid about not being up to speed.

"You're going to have to explain to me exactly what you mean by that," Carson said, asked about wet-foot, dry-foot. "I have to admit that I don't know a great deal about that, and I don't really like to comment until I've had a chance to study the issue from both sides."

On the Cuban Adjustment Act, he gave a similar response: "Again, I've not been briefed fully on what that is."

[hells_unicorn]

It isn't any worse than believing in Noah's ark, IMO, of which there are even more believers.

It's not really a question of how ridiculous a materialist views it, though that would be more of a factor in the general election, it's more of how it diverges with what little orthodoxy remains in the American Evangelical movement, since this is drawing inferences that were not being drawn in the many centuries prior to the 2nd Great Awakening. Old school Christians who don't mix their beliefs with modern Darwinian speculation will still find this stuff ridiculous for the same reason that they find Joseph Smith's viewpoint that the Garden of Eden was in Independence, Missouri to be ridiculous.

[DevilsAdvocate]

http://lockerroom.johnlocke.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/shocked-cat.gif

http://www.cutecatgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Facepalm.gif

http://www.cutecatgifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/sleepy-cat.gif

[erowe1]

The last line in the OP is weird.

It's practically a given that Carson is a young earth creationist. Scarborough's way out of touch if he sees that as an extreme view.

[PierzStyx]

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2015/11/05/im-completely-speechless-watch-as-morning-joe-panel-is-momentarily-stunned-silent-by-ben-carsons-egyptian-pyramid-theory/

So many problems with this, even for a Bible literalist.

The biggest one is this though: There is no space in the pyramids to hold any serious amount of grain, much less seven years worth. The pyramids are mostly solid stone with a few chambers inside for burial. Just look at a basic schematic and you can see this.

https://s.yimg.com/fz/api/res/1.2/fSb0pDXLkjJ7T.eLpMyTeg--/YXBwaWQ9c3JjaGRkO2g9MjQwO3E9OTU7dz0zMDA-/http://i.imgur.com/baXV9U6.jpg

[hells_unicorn]

The last line in the OP is weird.

It's practically a given that Carson is a young earth creationist. Scarborough's way out of touch if he sees that as an extreme view.

This is probably why Scarborough is working for MSNBC, being out of touch is a prerequisite to being employed there. The SDAs generally holding the the young earth view is one of the few areas where they have it right.

[jllundqu]

The last line in the OP is weird.

It's practically a given that Carson is a young earth creationist. Scarborough's way out of touch if he sees that as an extreme view.

I disagree. I think Carson polls high precisely because people DON'T know what his views are, specifically. If he came out and said in an interview he is a YEC... I would think a media-induced firestorm would ensue and he would precipitously decline in the polls.

[erowe1]

I assume Carson's not the first person to suggest this about the pyramids, though I've never encountered the view before.

I tried to find something via google. But all I got was page after page of hits about Carson saying this.

[hells_unicorn]

I assume Carson's not the first person to suggest this about the pyramids, though I've never encountered the view before.

I tried to find something via google. But all I got was page after page of hits about Carson saying this.

It was never a mainstream view even prior to recent excavation efforts in Egypt, I'm not even sure that any Medieval scholars would have speculated that the pyramids only began being constructed in close proximity to Joseph's time there.

[hells_unicorn]

//

[erowe1]

I disagree. I think Carson polls high precisely because people DON'T know what his views are, specifically. If he came out and said in an interview he is a YEC... I would think a media-induced firestorm would ensue and he would precipitously decline in the polls.

That wouldn't happen. Something like 40% of America is young earth creationists. I'm sure that's higher among Republican primary voters. Seeing the media use that to trash him would only energize more of them to support him to thumb their noses at the media.

Also, I believe that Ellen White explicitly taught that the days of Genesis 1 are literal 24-hour days. So it's practically dogma in 7th Day Adventism (maybe jmdrake can correct me if I'm wrong). Given what's already been known about Carson very publicly for a long time, nobody should be surprised if he's a young earther. For someone in the media to be surprised by that would say more about them than it did Carson.

Also, hasn't he already said he didn't believe in the big bang? Old earth creationists practically always believe in the big bang. The most likely reason he wouldn't is that he's a young earther.

[Ronin Truth]

Carson's a member of Skull & Bones. What more info do you need?

[TaftFan]

Carson's a member of Skull & Bones. What more info do you need?

There is no credible proof of that.

[Ronin Truth]

There is no credible proof of that.

Did you check Google? LOL!

[Brian4Liberty]

At risk of repeating myself, Carson's biggest problem is that he likes to run off at the mouth.

[TaftFan]

Did you check Google? LOL!

I still don't think you understand how the internet works. Just because something is on the internet does not make it true.

[Ronin Truth]

I still don't think you understand how the internet works. Just because something is on the internet does not make it true.

Who claimed otherwise? I'll take that as a 'no', you didn't.

[Brian4Liberty]

On the positive side for Carson, this means that they haven't been able to dig up any affairs or sexual harassment accusations.

[timosman]

At risk of repeating myself, Carson's biggest problem is that he likes to run off at the mouth.

He is an idiot on anything except brain surgery. Not sure why people give him a pass on everything.

[Ronin Truth]

He is an idiot on anything except brain surgery. Not sure why people give him a pass on everything.

Not a lawyer nor a politician is a HUGE plus to me.

[jllundqu]

How a man (or woman) thinks is very important in evaluating them. His "theory" about the pyramids tells me he may be a brilliant surgeon, but is intellectually retarded when it comes to basic scientific evidence-based discoveries.

[TaftFan]

Who claimed otherwise? I'll take that as a 'no', you didn't.

I did.

[jllundqu]

And yes, if someone running for POTUS honestly believed the world was 6000 years old, despite countless scientific discoveries to the contrary, it would disqualify them from office, IMO.

And before this thread deteriorates into religious quackery and is forced into the PEACE THRU RELIGION sub... please discuss this in the context of the presidential race, in the spirit of the OP.

[heavenlyboy34]

And yes, if someone running for POTUS honestly believed the world was 6000 years old, despite countless scientific discoveries to the contrary, it would disqualify them from office, IMO.

And before this thread deteriorates into religious quackery and is forced into the PEACE THRU RELIGION sub... please discuss this in the context of the presidential race, in the spirit of the OP.
I think it's a wacky idea too, but the Constitution doesn't say you have to believe or disbelieve anything to be POTUS. According to the parchment, there aren't many significant requirements besides being more or less sentient.

[jllundqu]

I think it's a wacky idea too, but the Constitution doesn't say you have to believe or disbelieve anything to be POTUS. According to the parchment, there aren't many significant requirements besides being more or less sentient.

I agree there are no requirements, but it doesn't change the fact that it reveals how the man thinks. And I choose to use that in my evaluation of a person's judgment and ability.

[Ronin Truth]

When a candidate for public office faces the voters he does not face men of sense; he faces a mob of men whose chief distinguishing mark is the fact that they are quite incapable of weighing ideas, or even of comprehending any save the most elemental — men whose whole thinking is done in terms of emotion, and whose dominant emotion is dread of what they cannot understand. So confronted, the candidate must either bark with the pack or be lost... All the odds are on the man who is, intrinsically, the most devious and mediocre — the man who can most adeptly disperse the notion that his mind is a virtual vacuum.' The Presidency tends, year by year, to go to such men. As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron. -- H L Mencken, Baltimore Sun (26 July 1920)

[opinionatedfool]

It's entirely possible. I've done alot of research on the pyramids and there isn't actually much or any evidence to say they are burial chambers. Those were theories created back in the day, but without evidence to support them.

[hells_unicorn]

And yes, if someone running for POTUS honestly believed the world was 6000 years old, despite countless scientific discoveries to the contrary, it would disqualify them from office, IMO.

That's fine, I think anybody who thinks that mankind are simply primates with less hair shouldn't be president, the Russians and most of Eastern Europe got burned on that one pretty bad for much of the 20th century.

[wizardwatson]

I think the pyramids were just something to keep the mundanes enslaved and occupied with something to do.

Kind of like vBulletin.

[opinionatedfool]

It's entirely possible. I've done alot of research on the pyramids and there isn't actually much or any evidence to say they are burial chambers. Those were theories created back in the day, but without evidence to support them.

http://www.scottcreighton.co.uk/PDF-Files/Ten%20Facts%20that%20Contradict%20the%20Pyramid%20 Tomb%20Theory.pdf

[Ronin Truth]

I'm becoming a fan of the ancient global power transmission grid node theory. Why not? Old pyramids are all over the world.

[DevilsAdvocate]

I'm becoming a fan of the ancient global power transmission grid node theory. Why not? Old pyramids are all over the world.

THIS IS THE TRUTH!!!!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pS7Jf24dQY

[jmdrake]

While I do believe that the Egyptians had to have developed a storage system in order to preserve food during the 7 year famine period, it's a pretty massive stretch to argue that this is what the pyramids were built for, particularly since it's pretty clear that they were being used as royal sepulchers. It's pure speculation at best to assume that they were built for another purpose and then converted into sepulchers later, though it is stipulated that whatever means of preserving grain during this time period would have been overseen by Joseph.

The problem with this is that regardless of whether or not Carson is right or wrong, most people in this country find stuff like this ridiculous and Carson will probably suffer badly among both more orthodox-leaning Evangelicals and skeptics alike as more questions are raised about his SDA background. I've always been confident that Carson would not be the nominee, and this may well be the beginning of a laundry list of problems that will sink him.

There's a lot of evidence that the great pyramid was not a tomb. Other pyramids yes, but not that one. And the grainery theory has been kicked around by people as far back as the middle ages and has continued until today. The truth is nobody knows exactly why the great pyramid was built. There is no SDA stance on the issue though. I believe 9/11 was orchestrated by rogue elements within the U.S. government but that's not an official SDA position either.

For more on "non tomb" theories for the great pyramid see:

http://www.gizapyramid.com/articles/theories-why.htm

[jmdrake]

And yes, if someone running for POTUS honestly believed the world was 6000 years old, despite countless scientific discoveries to the contrary, it would disqualify them from office, IMO.

And before this thread deteriorates into religious quackery and is forced into the PEACE THRU RELIGION sub... please discuss this in the context of the presidential race, in the spirit of the OP.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JyvkjSKMLw

[jllundqu]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JyvkjSKMLw

This is why I love Ron Paul. This video actually makes my point. He said in the video he feels the creator made all of us and the universe and we are not at a point where there is absolute proof on either side. This is exactly my view of things. If he would have said "The earth is 6000 years old and dinosaurs never existed" as most YEC'ers do... I'd have different feelings about him.

[libertyjam]

Incredible: 3,000 Room Egyptian Labyrinth With Hieroglyphs
http://yournewswire.com/incredible-3000-room-egyptian-labyrinth-with-hieroglyphs-video/

http://www.labyrinthofegypt.com/people.html

[Acala]

Only an idiot would build the great pyramid as a grainery. And the ancient Egyptians were not idiots. At least not in the field of architecture and construction. Ben Carson is a ninny.

[Mad Raven]

It's two different questions. What were they built for, and what were they used for, given the opportunity. They might have been used for all kinds of things. And those aren't the only two possibilities for what they were built for.

[r3volution 3.0]

Grain storage? Balderdash

The chief engineer for the project, a fellow by the name of Krugmanhotep, clearly built them to stimulate aggregate demand.

[juleswin]

When a candidate for public office faces the voters he does not face men of sense; he faces a mob of men whose chief distinguishing mark is the fact that they are quite incapable of weighing ideas, or even of comprehending any save the most elemental — men whose whole thinking is done in terms of emotion, and whose dominant emotion is dread of what they cannot understand. So confronted, the candidate must either bark with the pack or be lost... All the odds are on the man who is, intrinsically, the most devious and mediocre — the man who can most adeptly disperse the notion that his mind is a virtual vacuum.' The Presidency tends, year by year, to go to such men. As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron. -- H L Mencken, Baltimore Sun (26 July 1920)

Unfortunately for Carson and his idiot supporters, none of this applies to him since he started peddling this silly notion of history way before he started running for office. This is actually what he believes in and not some attempt to pander to the voters. I can't think of anyone whose is not retarded who looks at the Great Pyramids and says "yes, that was totally built for grain storage".

[Dr.3D]

So he is saying it only took seven years or less to build the pyramids?

[adam220891]

This guy is really far the fuck out there. It's amazing he's polling at #1. You (I) practically fall asleep whenever he talks and the majority of his comments lack any substance or true meaning. Then you see crackpot stuff like this...

[jmdrake]

This is why I love Ron Paul. This video actually makes my point. He said in the video he feels the creator made all of us and the universe and we are not at a point where there is absolute proof on either side. This is exactly my view of things. If he would have said "The earth is 6000 years old and dinosaurs never existed" as most YEC'ers do... I'd have different feelings about him.

You're showing your own ignorance. The vast majority of YEC'ers (your term) believe dinosaurs exist. They believe that dinos and men lived at the same time.

[Influenza]

You're showing your own ignorance. The vast majority of YEC'ers (your term) believe dinosaurs exist. They believe that dinos and men lived at the same time.
I think that's even more ignorant than claiming that dinosaurs didn't exist at all

[jmdrake]

I think that's even more ignorant than claiming that dinosaurs didn't exist at all

Yeah. And you probably believe that man and ape evolved from a common ancestor. Ron Paul doesn't. That's cool. People can believe what they want. There are a lot of people that believe man made global warming is real and a lot that don't. So what?

[presence]

There is no space in the pyramids to hold any serious amount of grain, much less seven years worth.


Exactly its just a big pile of rubble with a cut rock fascade. Its not hollow ffs.

[erowe1]

This is why I love Ron Paul. This video actually makes my point. He said in the video he feels the creator made all of us and the universe and we are not at a point where there is absolute proof on either side. This is exactly my view of things. If he would have said "The earth is 6000 years old and dinosaurs never existed" as most YEC'ers do... I'd have different feelings about him.

Can you cite any young earth creationists saying that dinosaurs never existed?

[wizardwatson]

Exactly its just a big pile of rubble with a cut rock fascade. Its not hollow ffs.

Obviously they build it fast because giants and dinosaurs existed back then. And it's not hollow "now" because they filled it with rocks when they didn't need the grain storage anymore to keep the roof from collapsing and maintain the aesthetics.

You guys have no imagination. Ben does. That's why he's full of win.

[erowe1]

I think that's even more ignorant than claiming that dinosaurs didn't exist at all

It's right up there with saying that coelocanths and human beings lived at the same time.

[erowe1]

And yes, if someone running for POTUS honestly believed the world was 6000 years old, despite countless scientific discoveries to the contrary, it would disqualify them from office, IMO.

And before this thread deteriorates into religious quackery and is forced into the PEACE THRU RELIGION sub... please discuss this in the context of the presidential race, in the spirit of the OP.

If someone believed the universe was 1 minute old, there is no conceivable scientific test that could prove them wrong.

Much less could science have the ability to overturn the belief that it's 6,000 years old.

[jkob]

Carson is 100% certified weirdo

there are an endless amount of weird stuff he's said over the years and will be more the more they dig

do not trust this guy with the launch codes

[wizardwatson]

If someone believed the universe was 1 minute old, there is no conceivable scientific test that could prove them wrong.

Much less could science have the ability to overturn the belief that it's 6,000 years old.

God created Adam from the dust. If you killed him 10 seconds later and gave his body to scientists they would conclude that he had been living for quite some time.

Point is the bible is full of magic. Not the least of which is that little fact of that dude who was reanimated after death, stopped storms with his mind, levitated over water, replicated food out of nothing, and reanimated other people at will just to name a few. His dad did even crazier things in his time.

If God is God, and decides to flood the earth and remove the evidence who is to say he can't?

These discussions about what is "plausible" or really happened when you're talking about a being who has power over time, space and matter seem to me pointless for believers and intellectually dishonest for non-believers when the premise of "God" is that he can do the impossible.

[erowe1]

Carson is 100% certified weirdo

there are an endless amount of weird stuff he's said over the years and will be more the more they dig

do not trust this guy with the launch codes

Good point about the launch codes. But I think a lot of the more mainstream sounding candidates are more likely to nuke someone than he is. And if you put that factor on one side of the scale, and all Carson's peculiar ideas on the other, then his peculiar ideas don't amount to much.

[jkob]

Good point about the launch codes. But I think a lot of the more mainstream sounding candidates are more likely to nuke someone than he is. And if you put that factor on one side of the scale, and all Carson's peculiar ideas on the other, then his peculiar ideas don't amount to much.

Does Carson believe that the end times are upon us and that he'll take an active hand in guiding it? Does he believe that he talks to God?

I'll be honest, I have a religious litmus test for president and if you pass a certain threshold of "craziness" then I can't trust the person no matter what they say their views are. No, the earth is not 6000 years old and the pyramids didn't hold grain.

[Influenza]

You don't need carbon dating to prove the Earth is more than a few thousand years old. Some knowledge of thermodynamics and plate tectonics will suffice... and just some casual observations of the world around us.

[Dr.3D]

Seems some folks don't understand that the rate of passage of time is not constant. It changes as the universe expands.
What looks like it took millions of years to take place may have only taken a single day when it happened.

[alucard13mm]

Based on Stargate, Pyrmids are alien space ships or landing pads

http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/stargate/images/f/f3/Pyramid_ship.JPG/revision/20141124130451

http://oi47.tinypic.com/2r475nc.jpg

[jmdrake]

Can you cite any young earth creationists saying that dinosaurs never existed?


It's right up there with saying that coelocanths and human beings lived at the same time.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to erowe1 again.

[Influenza]

Seems some folks don't understand that the rate of passage of time is not constant. It changes as the universe expands.
What looks like it took millions of years to take place may have only taken a single day when it happened.
It's interesting how you can take inconclusive metaphysical theories to be true yet reject even the most basic science and mathematics

[Dr.3D]

It's interesting how you can take inconclusive metaphysical theories to be true yet reject even the most basic science and mathematics
Here, listen to a physicist explain it.
Genesis and the Big Bang Theory Segment 1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZfgIFuoIBs

Genesis and the Big Bang Theory Segment 2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7Zds9YLJ3k

Genesis and the Big Bang Theory Segment 3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcHCG-4TGWk

Genesis and the Big Bang Theory Segment 4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PZtsfxyo9g

Genesis and the Big Bang Theory Segment 5

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHsNgw4lYmY

Segment 5 really gets to the brass tacks of things.

[enhanced_deficit]

Why make personal theories on such things?

In few years when Jesus returns, all questions will be answered.


Seventh-day Adventist eschatology



https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b3/Adventist_eschatology_timeline.gif


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventh-day_Adventist_eschatology

[jmdrake]

Here, listen to a physicist explain it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZfgIFuoIBs

Thanks! I was trying to find that.

[Dr.3D]

Thanks! I was trying to find that.
You're welcome. Sadly, many won't find the time to view all five segments of this video.

[cajuncocoa]

Not a lawyer nor a politician is a HUGE plus to me.
Miley Cyrus is neither. Would you vote for her?

[Sola_Fide]

Why make personal theories on such things?

In few years when Jesus returns, all questions will be answered.


Seventh-day Adventist eschatology



https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b3/Adventist_eschatology_timeline.gif


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventh-day_Adventist_eschatology

Haha...exactly. The Millerite movement and Ellen G. White's continuation of it, was a movement of false prophets.

[devil21]

If you want to know what the "elite" religious beliefs are, go to yt and check out all of William Cooper's Mystery Babylon Hour of the Time series from the 90's. More than likely what is contained in those videos is what Carson actually subscribes to.

[DevilsAdvocate]

2 out of 3 of these pyramids aren't even hollow. The one that is only has a tiny section carved out inside for a burial chamber, relatively small compared to the immensity of the structure. The other two have burial chambers located beneath them, in the ground. It's unclear what benefit an immense stone pyramid has on the effectiveness of an underground grain storage facility.

[Influenza]

Here, listen to a physicist explain it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZfgIFuoIBs
So the first day was 8 billion years, the second day 4 billion years, the third 2 billion, the fourth 1 billion, and so on. The earth, complete with vegetation and fruit-bearing trees was created in that 2 billion year time-frame of the third day, before the sun shining upon the earth had been created on the fourth. Does that make sense?

Anyways, the purpose of his lecture was not to say the universe is 6000 years old. It stated that the universe, from our perspective is in fact just less than 14 billion years old (the math of his video was off by a couple billion years,) and that by 6 days, the Bible was actually referring to billions of years. He says that from the perspective of the point at which the Big Bang occurred until the time of Adam, 6 days had elapsed. This is due to the expansion of the universe.

Which makes statements like this:


What looks like it took millions of years to take place may have only taken a single day when it happened

completely incorrect and shows a misunderstanding of the concepts presented in the videos. The events that happened on this earth such as geological formation and extinction/evolution of plants and animals, did take millions and millions of years, from our perspective. From the perspective of the point from which the big bang occurred, the "7th day" is taking place.

[DevilsAdvocate]

So the first day was 8 billion years, the second day 4 billion years, the third 2 billion, the fourth 1 billion, and so on. The earth, complete with vegetation and fruit-bearing trees was created in that 2 billion year time-frame of the third day, before the sun shining upon the earth had been created on the fourth. Does that make sense?

Anyways, the purpose of his lecture was not to say the universe is 6000 years old. It stated that the universe, from our perspective is in fact just less than 14 billion years old (the math of his video was off by a couple billion years,) and that by 6 days, the Bible was actually referring to billions of years. He says that from the perspective of the point at which the Big Bang occurred until the time of Adam, 6 days had elapsed. This is due to the expansion of the universe.

Which makes statements like this:



completely incorrect and shows a misunderstanding of the concepts presented in the videos. The events that happened on this earth such as geological formation and extinction/evolution of plants and animals, did take millions and millions of years, from our perspective. From the perspective of the point from which the big bang occurred, the "7th day" is taking place.

Look, I know a thing or two about physics, and the truth is, this is all very fuzzy. We don't even really understand how gravity works on a large scale. Many scientists have concocted bizarre theories about the universe being made up 99% of unobservable "dark matter" (no evidence) in order to explain why their models fail to accurately describe galaxy rotations. We've also observed that the expansion of the universe appears to be accelerating, leading scientists to throw another random variable into the mix: "dark energy". No one knows what it is, it's just something we throw into the mix to explain away these observations that don't fit into our understanding of the universe.

Our current level of science is really immature, we really don't have a consistent understanding of the world around us. Our laws of gravity are flawed. Quantum mechanics is all just bookkeeping, no one really understands what's actually going on. Particle physics isn't predictive (theory follows observation rather than the other way around). Condensed Matter Theory is basically engineering with unknowns.

My point is, that scientists say the universe is 14 billion years old, but expect that to change. It's probably going to change a LOT, if the entire paradigm doesn't shift away from Big Bang theory entirely

[r3volution 3.0]

Look, I know a thing or two about physics, and the truth is, this is all very fuzzy. We don't even really understand how gravity works on a large scale. Many scientists have concocted bizarre theories about the universe being made up 99% of unobservable "dark matter" (no evidence) in order to explain why their models fail to accurately describe galaxy rotations. We've also observed that the expansion of the universe appears to be accelerating, leading scientists to throw another random variable into the mix: "dark energy". No one knows what it is, it's just something we throw into the mix to explain away these observations that don't fit into our understanding of the universe.

Our current level of science is really immature, we really don't have a consistent understanding of the world around us. Our laws of gravity are flawed. Quantum mechanics is all just bookkeeping, no one really understands what's actually going on. Particle physics isn't predictive (theory follows observation rather than the other way around). Condensed Matter Theory is basically engineering with unknowns.

My point is, that scientists say the universe is 14 billion years old, but expect that to change. It's probably going to change a LOT, if the entire paradigm doesn't shift away from Big Bang theory entirely

What developments are you anticipating?

What to replace the BBT?

...disclaimer: I know essentially nothing of physics, so stick figures and puppets would be appreciated

[Influenza]

Look, I know a thing or two about physics, and the truth is, this is all very fuzzy. We don't even really understand how gravity works on a large scale. Many scientists have concocted bizarre theories about the universe being made up 99% of unobservable "dark matter" (no evidence) in order to explain why their models fail to accurately describe galaxy rotations. We've also observed that the expansion of the universe appears to be accelerating, leading scientists to throw another random variable into the mix: "dark energy". No one knows what it is, it's just something we throw into the mix to explain away these observations that don't fit into our understanding of the universe.

Our current level of science is really immature, we really don't have a consistent understanding of the world around us. Our laws of gravity are flawed. Quantum mechanics is all just bookkeeping, no one really understands what's actually going on. Particle physics isn't predictive (theory follows observation rather than the other way around). Condensed Matter Theory is basically engineering with unknowns.

My point is, that scientists say the universe is 14 billion years old, but expect that to change. It's probably going to change a LOT, if the entire paradigm doesn't shift away from Big Bang theory entirely

I don't claim to know how the universe works and exactly how old it is. It's not something that can be known with 100% certainty. Dr.3D simply made a statement and attempted to support it with a series of videos that did not support his beliefs, which I explained. However, my sensibilities tell me that the earth, and thus the universe, is much older than a few thousand years. May God strike me dead if scientists shift their estimate of the universe's age down to thousands of years.

[DevilsAdvocate]

What developments are you anticipating?

What to replace the BBT?

...disclaimer: I know essentially nothing of physics, so stick figures and puppets would be appreciated

I don't know, how could I? But remember how back before Einstein, physicists believed everything in the universe traveled with respect to a fixed reference frame. The "luminiferous ether" that carried the transmission of light waves through seemingly empty space. Scientists had all sorts of theories and models for how the Earth moved through the Ether as it revolved around the Sun.

After the famous Michelson-Morley experiment which demonstrated that light travels roughly the same speed in any direction, scientists had to explain why the Ether seemed to be fixed on Earth, even while it was rotating the sun. All sorts of bizarre theories and rationalizations were constructed to explain this. The Ether "clung" to the Earth somehow, or maybe the Earth made eddies in the Ether, or maybe the Earth was producing the Ether.

Suddenly Einstein came along, and shattered our perception of reality entirely. He said, there IS NO ETHER!!! Everything is relative, there is no fixed background reference frame. There is no universal yardstick. Light can travel in a vacuum without a medium. All of a sudden, space and time became interchangeable concepts, as did mass and energy. Our entire paradigm shifted drastically, the precise geometric Newtonian worldview was replaced.

That same kind of world shattering discovery is on the cusp of happening in Astrophysics right now. We have all sorts of crazy theories about 99% of the universe made of unobservable particles, or there is some mysterious force being generated to accelerate galaxies apart. Or maybe it's other dimensions inflicting on our own. Or maybe it's string theory....no one knows. Scientists are treading water with all these crazy ideas, just waiting for a spectacular insight that will change everything.

[francisco]

Miley Cyrus is neither. Would you vote for her?

If it came down to a choice between Miley and Trump for the Presidency, I'd vote for Miley.

I'd also vote for Miley over Miss Lindsey or Frothy.

[Chester Copperpot]

Grain.. I doubt it.. I also doubt the Egyptian pyramids were built by the Egyptians. But at least Carson isnt swallowing the tired old line of tombs

[wizardwatson]

You're welcome. Sadly, many won't find the time to view all five segments of this video.

Well, I just did. And this may be the next book I read. (The Science of God)

The payoff in the video is really awesome. I had considered that the first 6 days were a cosmological parable, but after viewing those videos and hearing his arguments to that effect I doubt anyone will be able to convince me otherwise. His knowledge of ancient texts is also mind-blowing.

And this hour of videos was only about the age of the universe! I'm excited to hear his scientific interpretation of other biblical concepts related to God.

Very fascinating. The Wiz approves.

[Dr.3D]

Well, I just did. And this may be the next book I read. (The Science of God)

The payoff in the video is really awesome. I had considered that the first 6 days were a cosmological parable, but after viewing those videos and hearing his arguments to that effect I doubt anyone will be able to convince me otherwise. His knowledge of ancient texts is also mind-blowing.

And this hour of videos was only about the age of the universe! I'm excited to hear his scientific interpretation of other biblical concepts related to God.

Very fascinating. The Wiz approves.
I'm glad you understood the video.

I have no idea why someone would think a day would be without sun shining on the earth. I mean, I was talking about literal 24 hour days and some folks think I was talking about something else. Guess they didn't view the last section of the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHsNgw4lYmY

Edit: And by the way, I have The Science of God and it's great. I let my oldest son borrow it and he hasn't returned it yet.

[sparebulb]

Mr. Dr. Ben Carson MD is wrong again.

Everyone knows that the pyramids were constructed to keep the Egyptian razor blades sharp.

http://www.my-introspective.com/MyEnergy/Sharpening_of_Razor_within_Pyramid.jpg

https://web2.ph.utexas.edu/~coker2/index.files/sharpener.jpg

http://www.stropper.com/home/pictures/2Astromatic%20Razor%20Saver%20box.JPG

[enhanced_deficit]

Haha...exactly. The Millerite movement and Ellen G. White's continuation of it, was a movement of false prophets.

Are you suggesting that Ben Carson, darling of anti-Obama evangelicals, is not a Christian but a follower of false prophets?

[wizardwatson]

I'm glad you understood the video.

I have no idea why someone would think a day would be without sun shining on the earth. I mean, I was talking about literal 24 hour days and some folks think I was talking about something else. Guess they didn't view the last section of the video.

Edit: And by the way, I have The Science of God and it's great. I let my oldest son borrow it and he hasn't returned it yet.

Most people don't like to learn. It's rare to find someone who likes to talk and share and also is eager to learn more. Most who talk are interested in displaying what they have learned. This phenomenon I would say is even more pronounced with those who discuss religion because they have a existential stake in giving an appearance of complete knowledge.

Anyway, I understood it "easier" I guess because I've studied this stuff extensively. I was actually a Health Physics Technician in the army at 19 so I had to learn physics as part of my job but was reading this stuff since grade school.

I wasn't really what I would call a "believer" until my 30's. (37 now) Reconciling the science with theology was certainly a challenge. Excited by this guy, who seems like he definitely would have made that challenge easier, because ultimately all knowledge and learning is helpful in communicating this stuff to other people. In the "sword of truth, shield of faith, helmet of salvation" paradigm, learning what this guy has to say falls into the "sword of truth" category.

It's weird, I was just having a theological debate with my 12 year old over dinner. We watched the first segment of that video together even though I didn't know what was going to be in it. I just knew the guy was going to present biblical concepts from the perspective of science. Can't wait to show him the whole series. He's currently belongs to the "monkey religion" (his own words. Apparently, that's what his classmates term evolutionary theory as). But I got some points by emphasizing what the narrator points out about how 2/3rds of scientists in the 1950's thought the universe was eternal.

So really, I like learning how to reconcile these kinds of things for the benefit of communicating with others. For myself, I'm more obsessed with the future theologically. But God has wrapped all that up in codes and puzzles. Fun but slow going. It'll be nice to study up on some foundational stuff and change tracks for awhile.

Thanks again!

[Sola_Fide]

Are you suggesting that Ben Carson, darling of anti-Obama evangelicals, is not a Christian but a follower of false prophets?

Yes. Ellen G. White was a false prophet and false teacher.

[Influenza]

I'm glad you understood the video.

I have no idea why someone would think a day would be without sun shining on the earth. I mean, I was talking about literal 24 hour days and some folks think I was talking about something else. Guess they didn't view the last section of the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHsNgw4lYmY

Edit: And by the way, I have The Science of God and it's great. I let my oldest son borrow it and he hasn't returned it yet.
God, why the hell are you talking about understanding the video when you don't understand it yourself. He is saying that the first 6 days of the universe are from the perspective of the location of the big bang, which is supposedly 16 billion years on earth. As science estimates. His entire argument is that the claims of Genesis match the scientific estimates, not that he's disproving modern science...

[heavenlyboy34]

It's interesting how you can take inconclusive metaphysical theories to be true yet reject even the most basic science and mathematics

Wut? In the doc3d post you quoted, he is describing some of the implications of Einstein's general relativity.

[Dr.3D]

Most people don't like to learn. It's rare to find someone who likes to talk and share and also is eager to learn more. Most who talk are interested in displaying what they have learned. This phenomenon I would say is even more pronounced with those who discuss religion because they have a existential stake in giving an appearance of complete knowledge.

Anyway, I understood it "easier" I guess because I've studied this stuff extensively. I was actually a Health Physics Technician in the army at 19 so I had to learn physics as part of my job but was reading this stuff since grade school.

I wasn't really what I would call a "believer" until my 30's. (37 now) Reconciling the science with theology was certainly a challenge. Excited by this guy, who seems like he definitely would have made that challenge easier, because ultimately all knowledge and learning is helpful in communicating this stuff to other people. In the "sword of truth, shield of faith, helmet of salvation" paradigm, learning what this guy has to say falls into the "sword of truth" category.

It's weird, I was just having a theological debate with my 12 year old over dinner. We watched the first segment of that video together even though I didn't know what was going to be in it. I just knew the guy was going to present biblical concepts from the perspective of science. Can't wait to show him the whole series. He's currently belongs to the "monkey religion" (his own words. Apparently, that's what his classmates term evolutionary theory as). But I got some points by emphasizing what the narrator points out about how 2/3rds of scientists in the 1950's thought the universe was eternal.

So really, I like learning how to reconcile these kinds of things for the benefit of communicating with others. For myself, I'm more obsessed with the future theologically. But God has wrapped all that up in codes and puzzles. Fun but slow going. It'll be nice to study up on some foundational stuff and change tracks for awhile.

Thanks again!
What you said reminds me of this quote.

NRS 1 Corinthians 1:27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong;

Again, you are welcome, glad I could help.

[wizardwatson]

God, why the hell are you talking about understanding the video when you don't understand it yourself. He is saying that the first 6 days of the universe are from the perspective of the location of the big bang, which is supposedly 16 billion years on earth. As science estimates. His entire argument is that the claims of Genesis match the scientific estimates, not that he's disproving modern science...

No, goober. He is saying that from the moment time STARTED 6 days would be 15 billion years. That is, when the energy first coalesced into matter, which is the point where we can actually say time began (since time requires matter to work on), if you you sat in that frame of reference for 6 days, it would be close to 15 billion years compared to how a watch you wear now would calculate time now in this frame of reference, compared to then.

To say another way. If you could somehow "observe" those six days you spent in that initial frame of reference by some instrument today, it would appear you sat in that frame of reference for 15 billion years.

The six day breakdown in genesis, as the author puts it, is just "for the heck of it". Meaning not only does the 6 days before humans match the cosmological 1,000,000,000,000 seconds to 1 second scientific estimate (which matches the 15 billion years when you calculate 6 days worth of seconds using that ratio), but the way in which the 6 days are biblically narrated matches the cosmological scientific narration of the evolution of the cosmos and life.

[Liberty74]

It's more likely aliens built or at least helped build the pyramids than say some Biblical figure did.

Just saying...

[jmdrake]

Haha...exactly. The Millerite movement and Ellen G. White's continuation of it, was a movement of false prophets.

Yeah. False prophets like Daniel and John the Revelator. :rolleyes:

[jmdrake]

Are you suggesting that Ben Carson, darling of anti-Obama evangelicals, is not a Christian but a follower of false prophets?

You know that Sola_Fide is on record saying that he doesn't believe Rand Paul is a Christian right?

[jmdrake]

God, why the hell are you talking about understanding the video when you don't understand it yourself. He is saying that the first 6 days of the universe are from the perspective of the location of the big bang, which is supposedly 16 billion years on earth. As science estimates. His entire argument is that the claims of Genesis match the scientific estimates, not that he's disproving modern science...

You've got a reading comprehension problem. Dr.3D's point wasn't that the video disproves modern science but that you can believe modern science and the Genesis account of creation. Maybe it's a logic problem.

[jmdrake]

Yes. Ellen G. White was a false prophet and false teacher.

William Miller never claimed to be a prophet and he came up with 1844 based on an otherwise accurate year for year application of Daniel's 2300 day prophet. So you're basically calling Daniel a false prophet. The 2300 prophecy predicted the time of Christ quite accurately. Extend it out and you end up at 1844. Ellen White never had a vision of any kind until after 1844. Clearly Jesus didn't come in 1844 so either the day for the year interpretation was wrong, in which case Jesus coming the first time when He did was just a coincidence, or 1844 was significant for some other reason. Oh, and you don't believe Rand Paul is a Christian so your opinion on this subject in a political forum is moot. Regardless of who you vote for, you're going to vote for someone you don't believe is a Christian. (Maybe you think Huckabee is a Christian?)

[jmdrake]

I'm glad you understood the video.

I have no idea why someone would think a day would be without sun shining on the earth. I mean, I was talking about literal 24 hour days and some folks think I was talking about something else. Guess they didn't view the last section of the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHsNgw4lYmY

Edit: And by the way, I have The Science of God and it's great. I let my oldest son borrow it and he hasn't returned it yet.

I need to buy a copy and send it to a friend that used to be a Christian but is now agnostic leaning towards atheism.

[jmdrake]

Does Carson believe that the end times are upon us and that he'll take an active hand in guiding it? Does he believe that he talks to God?

I'll be honest, I have a religious litmus test for president and if you pass a certain threshold of "craziness" then I can't trust the person no matter what they say their views are. No, the earth is not 6000 years old and the pyramids didn't hold grain.

The great pyramid didn't hold tombs that's for sure. No hieroglyphs or anything typically found in a burial chamber. Nobody actually knows what it was used for. So if nobody knows what it was used for, how can anybody be sure what it was not used for? Anyway, I wouldn't vote for you for president as you're too narrow minded.

[jmdrake]

You're welcome. Sadly, many won't find the time to view all five segments of this video.

This is the first time I saw the other 4 segments. I'll watch them as I have time and share them. I also found this interesting by the same author:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=5&v=eQVm8RokoBA

[Influenza]

No, goober. He is saying that from the moment time STARTED 6 days would be 15 billion years. That is, when the energy first coalesced into matter, which is the point where we can actually say time began (since time requires matter to work on), if you you sat in that frame of reference for 6 days, it would be close to 15 billion years compared to how a watch you wear now would calculate time now in this frame of reference, compared to then.

To say another way. If you could somehow "observe" those six days you spent in that initial frame of reference by some instrument today, it would appear you sat in that frame of reference for 15 billion years.

The six day breakdown in genesis, as the author puts it, is just "for the heck of it". Meaning not only does the 6 days before humans match the cosmological 1,000,000,000,000 seconds to 1 second scientific estimate (which matches the 15 billion years when you calculate 6 days worth of seconds using that ratio), but the way in which the 6 days are biblically narrated matches the cosmological scientific narration of the evolution of the cosmos and life.
Thanks for essentially repeating exactly what I had typed in both my responses. Unfortunately, statements such as this


What looks like it took millions of years to take place may have only taken a single day when it happened.
remain unsupported

[Influenza]

You've got a reading comprehension problem. Dr.3D's point wasn't that the video disproves modern science but that you can believe modern science and the Genesis account of creation. Maybe it's a logic problem.

No. He used that video to support this statement:


What looks like it took millions of years to take place may have only taken a single day when it happened.

Yet the video doesn't support that statement at all.

[wizardwatson]

Thanks for essentially repeating exactly what I had typed in both my responses. Unfortunately, statements such as this


What looks like it took millions of years to take place may have only taken a single day when it happened.

remain unsupported

What looks like it took millions of years to take place (from our current position in time and space) may have only taken a single day when it happened (from the perspective of time and space when time started).

Pretty sure the video does validate such a statement. It's basic relativity. Agree to disagree I guess.

[Chester Copperpot]

While I do believe that the Egyptians had to have developed a storage system in order to preserve food during the 7 year famine period, it's a pretty massive stretch to argue that this is what the pyramids were built for, particularly since it's pretty clear that they were being used as royal sepulchers. It's pure speculation at best to assume that they were built for another purpose and then converted into sepulchers later, though it is stipulated that whatever means of preserving grain during this time period would have been overseen by Joseph.

The problem with this is that regardless of whether or not Carson is right or wrong, most people in this country find stuff like this ridiculous and Carson will probably suffer badly among both more orthodox-leaning Evangelicals and skeptics alike as more questions are raised about his SDA background. I've always been confident that Carson would not be the nominee, and this may well be the beginning of a laundry list of problems that will sink him.

oh? care to enlighten us?

[Influenza]

What looks like it took millions of years to take place (from our current position in time and space) may have only taken a single day when it happened (from the perspective of time and space when time started).

Pretty sure the video does validate such a statement. It's basic relativity. Agree to disagree I guess.

Yet that's not what the original statement said. The original statement implied that millions of years of geological formation, evolution, etc, occurred in fast-forward on a single day. If no frame of reference is introduced in the original statement, it is entirely false.

[Dr.3D]

No, goober. He is saying that from the moment time STARTED 6 days would be 15 billion years. That is, when the energy first coalesced into matter, which is the point where we can actually say time began (since time requires matter to work on), if you you sat in that frame of reference for 6 days, it would be close to 15 billion years compared to how a watch you wear now would calculate time now in this frame of reference, compared to then.

To say another way. If you could somehow "observe" those six days you spent in that initial frame of reference by some instrument today, it would appear you sat in that frame of reference for 15 billion years.

The six day breakdown in genesis, as the author puts it, is just "for the heck of it". Meaning not only does the 6 days before humans match the cosmological 1,000,000,000,000 seconds to 1 second scientific estimate (which matches the 15 billion years when you calculate 6 days worth of seconds using that ratio), but the way in which the 6 days are biblically narrated matches the cosmological scientific narration of the evolution of the cosmos and life.

I'm almost afraid to say anything because I don't want to confuse anybody further. But, yes, Dr. Schroeder is saying, each 24 hour day, back when the earth was very young, took around 1,000,000,000,000 of our days as we know them now. Of course in the Bible, a day is measured from one sunset to the next so we understand that we are talking about literal 24 hour days. It's just that the days lasted 1,000,000,000,000 times longer than the ones we have now, sunset to sunset.

I know it's confusing, because we are not used to thinking about time that way. As the universe spread out, the days became shorter until we have the length of day as we know them now. Knowing this, we can say, the earth is around six thousand years + 6 days old, the six extra days being before Adam came into the scene.

This accounts for why it seems like the earth is older than it really is. We are measuring time by the way we know it now instead of by the way it was back then.

Now I'm sure I've confused many folks by opening my mouth once again.

[DevilsAdvocate]

Here are the three "grain storage facilities". Tell me if you can find any architectural design flaws?

Pyramid Khufu:
http://www.slidego.com/res/palooza/world/AncientMiddleEast-2/AD3DD4A7.jpg

Pyramid Khafre:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/13/Khephren-plan.jpg

Pyramid Menkaure:
http://www.mummies2pyramids.info/images/interior-menkaure-pyramid-3.gif

[Dr.3D]

This is the first time I saw the other 4 segments. I'll watch them as I have time and share them. I also found this interesting by the same author:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=5&v=eQVm8RokoBA
Thank you. :)

[KingNothing]

And now it comes out that he didn't receive a scholarship offer from West Point.

And also that he probably never tried to stab his friend or brain his mother with a hammer. ...yeah, I mean, maybe that is a good thing though?

This guy is batshit insane, and will be back to polling at 1-percent by Thanksgiving.

[EBounding]

And now it comes out that he didn't receive a scholarship offer from West Point.

And also that he probably never tried to stab his friend or brain his mother with a hammer. ...yeah, I mean, maybe that is a good thing though?

This guy is batshit insane, and will be back to polling at 1-percent by Thanksgiving.

I dunno. Unlike someone like Herman Cain, Carson was basically drafted to run by supporters.

[TheTexan]

Well, if Joseph didn't build the pyramids, then who did? Aliens?

[Ronin Truth]

Well, if Joseph didn't build the pyramids, then who did? Aliens?

Volunteer Pharaoh devout Egyptians, or so one popular theory goes. <shrug>

[Sola_Fide]

You know that Sola_Fide is on record saying that he doesn't believe Rand Paul is a Christian right?

He's not.

[sparebulb]

I dunno. Unlike someone like Herman Cain, Carson was basically drafted to run by supporters Goldman Sachs, Mossad, Koch Brothers, CFR, Trilateral Commission and other unnamed handlers.

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Bd72KPg3dOU/maxresdefault.jpg

[jmdrake]

No. He used that video to support this statement:



Yet the video doesn't support that statement at all.

Did you miss in the video where the author stated that there are places in the universe where billions of years pass as if a single 24 hour period? Watch it again if you missed that.

[erowe1]

Yet that's not what the original statement said. The original statement implied that millions of years of geological formation, evolution, etc, occurred in fast-forward on a single day. If no frame of reference is introduced in the original statement, it is entirely false.

You totally botched the original statement.

It's all about frames of reference. What is a certain amount of time from one frame of reference is a different amount of time from another.

[Influenza]

Your problem is that you are correlating two separate frames of reference. You can't add 6 days with 6000 years. 6 Days from that frame of reference is equivalent to 15.75 billion years in our frame of reference . So, if correct, the age of the universe from our perspective is 15.75 billion + 6000 years, while from the reference of the big bang, 7 days have not yet completed

[jmdrake]

Your problem is that you are correlating two separate frames of reference.

Tell the truth. You didn't actually watch the video did you? The idea that the torah treats the 6 days differently than the other 6,000 years is one of the main points of the video.

[erowe1]

Your problem is that you are correlating two separate frames of reference. You can't add 6 days with 6000 years. 6 Days from that frame of reference is equivalent to 15.75 billion years in our frame of reference . So, if correct, the age of the universe from our perspective is 15.75 billion + 6000 years, while from the reference of the big bang, 7 days have not yet completed

That's the point.

[Influenza]

I did watch the video, and what I've been saying this entire time is that the video DOES NOT support statements like this:


Knowing this, we can say, the earth is around six thousand years + 6 days old, the six extra days being before Adam came into the scene.


What looks like it took millions of years to take place may have only taken a single day when it happened.
^It looks like it took millions of years because it DID take millions of years. The frame of reference of another location in the universe is ONLY relevant in explaining what the Bible is referring to as "days," and should not be equated with 6 rotations of the earth, as billions and billions of rotations of the earth occurred during that time-frame. The earth didn't even exist as we know it during most of the first two days.

[erowe1]

I did watch the video, and what I've been saying this entire time is that the video DOES NOT support statements like this:




^It looks like it took millions of years because it DID take millions of years. The frame of reference of another location in the universe is ONLY relevant in explaining what the Bible is referring to as "days," and should not be equated with 6 rotations of the earth, as billions and billions of rotations of the earth occurred during that time-frame. The earth didn't even exist as we know it during most of the first two days.

Nobody in the discussion you are talking about equated the 6 days of creation with 6 rotations of the earth. What the video and others are saying is that it DID take millions (billions) of years from one frame of reference, and from another it did not.

Which part of either of the quotes you just said it doesn't support does that video not support?

[Influenza]

By adding 6 days with 6000 years, you are equating 6 days of creation with 6 rotations of the earth.


I'm almost afraid to say anything because I don't want to confuse anybody further. But, yes, Dr. Schroeder is saying, each 24 hour day, back when the earth was very young, took around 1,000,000,000,000 of our days as we know them now. Of course in the Bible, a day is measured from one sunset to the next so we understand that we are talking about literal 24 hour days. It's just that the days lasted 1,000,000,000,000 times longer than the ones we have now, sunset to sunset.

I know it's confusing, because we are not used to thinking about time that way. As the universe spread out, the days became shorter until we have the length of day as we know them now. Knowing this, we can say, the earth is around six thousand years + 6 days old, the six extra days being before Adam came into the scene.

This accounts for why it seems like the earth is older than it really is. We are measuring time by the way we know it now instead of by the way it was back then.

Now I'm sure I've confused many folks by opening my mouth once again.
Time did not suddenly change rate of passage on the earth when Adam was created.
Anyways, I'm done posting here as I'm sick of repeating myself again and again only to have everyone but Dr 3D agreeing, have fun

[erowe1]

Time did not suddenly change rate of passage on the earth when Adam was created.
Anyways, I'm done posting here as I'm sick of repeating myself again and again only to have everyone but Dr 3D agreeing, have fun

Nobody said that.

And nobody who understands the conversation agrees with you.

[jllundqu]

The mental gymnastics necessary to uphold the young earth creation myth never ceases to amaze...

:facepalm:

[Dr.3D]

The mental gymnastics necessary to uphold the young earth creation myth never ceases to amaze...

:facepalm:
That's because you are too smart to understand it.

[DevilsAdvocate]

The mental gymnastics necessary to uphold the young earth creation myth never ceases to amaze...

:facepalm:

Could have happened if this universe is really just a computer program with an almighty creator programmer

[Influenza]

to erowe:

I said I wasn't gonna respond, but I'll respond to you without furthering the actual topic we were discussing.

I said:

Time did not suddenly change rate of passage on the earth when Adam was created.
You said:

Nobody said that.

You also said:

Nobody in the discussion you are talking about equated the 6 days of creation with 6 rotations of the earth.

Which I explained to you that he did in my previous posts, which you cleverly edited from my quote as if I didn't just prove you wrong.

I'm not going to hold your hand again and explain why what he says implies a change in the rate of passage of time on earth, you can read through his posts and determine that yourself. Or maybe you won't, as you've shown absolutely no effort in discussing or understanding anyone's arguments in this thread. I'll be sure to avoid discussing anything with "erowe1" in the future, as you are fucking dismal

[erowe1]

Which I explained to you that he did in my previous posts, which you cleverly edited from my quote as if I didn't just prove you wrong.


You did not explain that he did that. You just asserted it and gave quotes from him that didn't support your claim.

What you did wasn't holding anybody's hand to explain something they failed to understand, it was just totally botching what others had said.

I mean, look at the twisted argument you have to make to keep this going:

By adding 6 days with 6000 years, you are equating 6 days of creation with 6 rotations of the earth.

Huh? How this claim makes any sense to you I can't conceive. No, adding what is billions of year's from the earth's vantage point (the days of creation, or 6 days from some other vantage point) to 6,000 more years from the earth's vantage point is not equating the days of creation with 6 rotations of the earth.

[Influenza]

If he thinks I unfairly characterized his statements, I'd love for him to make them a little more clear.
But if he continues adding 6 days with 6000 years, without making clear that those 6 days are billions of years on earth, he is equating the 6 days of creation with 6 rotations of the earth. If you can't see that, then you are very lost

[Ronin Truth]

Where on Earth would Ben get such an idea?

[Influenza]

Huh? How this claim makes any sense to you I can't conceive. No, adding what is billions of year's from the earth's vantage point (the days of creation, or 6 days from some other vantage point) to 6,000 more years from the earth's vantage point is not equating the days of creation with 6 rotations of the earth.

He never made clear that those 6 days are billions of years from the earth's vantage point. He never said that at all in this entire thread, yet used the video to support his posts.

[wizardwatson]

I'm almost afraid to say anything because I don't want to confuse anybody further. But, yes, Dr. Schroeder is saying, each 24 hour day, back when the earth was very young, took around 1,000,000,000,000 of our days as we know them now. Of course in the Bible, a day is measured from one sunset to the next so we understand that we are talking about literal 24 hour days. It's just that the days lasted 1,000,000,000,000 times longer than the ones we have now, sunset to sunset.

I know it's confusing, because we are not used to thinking about time that way. As the universe spread out, the days became shorter until we have the length of day as we know them now. Knowing this, we can say, the earth is around six thousand years + 6 days old, the six extra days being before Adam came into the scene.

This accounts for why it seems like the earth is older than it really is. We are measuring time by the way we know it now instead of by the way it was back then.

Now I'm sure I've confused many folks by opening my mouth once again.

Well, no, not when the earth was very young. That 1 day then equals 1,000,000,000,000 days now ratio is from when time started, when matter first existed. Influenza seems preoccupied with criticizing you for not accurately summarizing the scientists 1 hour worth of video.

It's a forum. You posting the video was good enough, imo. Influenza thinks your commentary on it is substandard and I guess wants some sort of kudo for showing that you aren't putting into your own words clearly enough.

It's like you delivered a croissant to him to eat and he's berating you for pronouncing it wrong. :)

[wizardwatson]

He never made clear that those 6 days are billions of years from the earth's vantage point. He never said that at all in this entire thread, yet used the video to support his posts.

How dare he!

[hells_unicorn]

The mental gymnastics necessary to uphold the young earth creation myth never ceases to amaze...

:facepalm:

Let me know when you successfully pull off one of those back-flips with a twist that explains how we popped out of that mutant fish-monkey Dawkins thinks birthed humanity.

[Brian4Liberty]

Well, if Joseph didn't build the pyramids, then who did? Aliens?

Taxpayers.

[Brian4Liberty]

This, my friends, is a grain elevator. Also note the man-made water storage system for crop irrigation in the foreground.




4610

[DevilsAdvocate]

http://www.libertyharborrv.com/uploads/statue.jpeg

You'd be surprised how much grain you can fit inside it

[Rothbardian Girl]

https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/12187768_10205925193943110_6395354350090758400_n.j pg?oh=195e4160dae9dd717a40147cf6367a0c&oe=56C5DFE9

[enhanced_deficit]

Just because he built "Trump Plaza", Trump seems to think he is qualified to challenge personal theory of world reknowned brain surgeon & George W Bush Freedom Medal Winner Dr. Ben Carson MD CEO:



http://www.redstate.com/uploads/2015/11/trump-tweet-small.png

http://www.cheapatlanticcity.com/images/trumplazapic1.jpghttps://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/92/fe/40/92fe409a7b202672df802914546b6b5f.jpg


As RG's above post points out, Dr Carson probably just mixed up Egyptian Pyramids with Food Pyramid...happens all the time.

[CPUd]

https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/12187768_10205925193943110_6395354350090758400_n.j pg?oh=195e4160dae9dd717a40147cf6367a0c&oe=56C5DFE9

Thread winner!

[YesI'mALiberal]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-dAM6iH1ZALA/VQZJg8b28DI/AAAAAAAAAYo/rftlhGfaEEw/s1600/junk-food-pyramid-imspirational-ideas-on-food-yummy.jpg

[AngryCanadian]

Where on Earth would Ben get such an idea?

From this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcctafQ1QpI

[Brian4Liberty]

It's all about evolution. Eventually, there will only be Brawndo...

4611

[devil21]

Now people are starting to catch on....

[jonhowe]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JyvkjSKMLw

And he didn't win. You're proving jllundqu's point!



EDIT: Everyone here knows/agrees the Hebrews were never enslaved in Egypt, right? It's literally made up.

[erowe1]

https://scontent-lga3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/12187768_10205925193943110_6395354350090758400_n.j pg?oh=195e4160dae9dd717a40147cf6367a0c&oe=56C5DFE9

The eye at the top.

[erowe1]

EDIT: Everyone here knows/agrees the Hebrews were never enslaved in Egypt, right? It's literally made up.

Why do you believe that?

[hells_unicorn]

Why do you believe that?

Because the blowup doll of Richard Dawkins that he sleeps with every night tells him so. If you actually parse what these modern "materialists" think, it's about as ridiculous as what Carson said about the pyramids.

[juleswin]

Because the blowup doll of Richard Dawkins that he sleeps with every night tells him so. If you actually parse what these modern "materialists" think, it's about as ridiculous as what Carson said about the pyramids.

Maybe its because it is written in a book filled with fairy tale believes and there is no historical evidence that the Jews were ever enslaved in Egypt except for assertions from the bible itself. Richard Dawkins be damned but I don't believe anything from the bible for which the only evidence or historical reference comes from the bible itself.

[enhanced_deficit]

Not a fan of Carson but did not expect to see such headlines on a pro Obama media outlet.

Mainstream media finally begins referring to Ben Carson as mentally ill

http://dailynewsbincom.c.presscdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/ben-carson-150x150.jpg

Last week I wrote an op-ed piece pointing out what most Americans have been quietly thinking: Ben Carson is almost certainly suffering from a mental illness in a way which goes beyond mere politics or left vs right battles. The article was largely well received, with a some of his conservative supporters being predictably unhappy. But there were a few liberals who pushed back as well. The gist of their counter argument: “Sure we all know he’s crazy, but you don’t see other new outlets talking about him like that.” And I understood their point. But as I glance around at the latest Ben Carson headlines today, what a difference a week makes.

This week major mainstream news outlets are running headlines calling Ben Carson everything from “crazy” to “disturbed” to “crackpot” to “lost his mind.” While a few are being flippant, most of them are taking the same stance that I did: this is a once-brilliant man who has dissolved into the kind of mental incompetence that you’d normally get from a guy on a street corner, not from a guy who’s in second place in his party’s race for President.

Ben Carson admits he made up the names of the people he supposedly attacked violently

Just hours after several people from Ben Carson’s past confirmed that none of his claims about his own youth are true, Carson is responding by changing his story and admitting he made up the names of the people he claims to have attacked violently. The Presidential candidate got into hot water when he claimed to have committed several acts of violence in his youth, which sent researchers digging into his past and researching his life. It turns out none of his claims could be verified by anyone who knew him. And now we know why his supposed victims can’t be found: he’s finally admitting they don’t exist.

http://www.dailynewsbin.com/opinion/mainstream-media-finally-begins-referring-to-ben-carson-as-mentally-ill/22808/

[juleswin]

Not a fan of Carson but did not expect to see such headlines on a pro Obama media outlet.

Mainstream media finally begins referring to Ben Carson as mentally ill

By Bill Palmer | October 13, 2015

http://dailynewsbincom.c.presscdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/ben-carson-150x150.jpg



Last week I wrote an op-ed piece pointing out what most Americans have been quietly thinking: Ben Carson is almost certainly suffering from a mental illness in a way which goes beyond mere politics or left vs right battles. The article was largely well received, with a some of his conservative supporters being predictably unhappy. But there were a few liberals who pushed back as well. The gist of their counter argument: “Sure we all know he’s crazy, but you don’t see other new outlets talking about him like that.” And I understood their point. But as I glance around at the latest Ben Carson headlines today, what a difference a week makes.


This week major mainstream news outlets are running headlines calling Ben Carson everything from “crazy” to “disturbed” to “crackpot” to “lost his mind.” While a few are being flippant, most of them are taking the same stance that I did: this is a once-brilliant man who has dissolved into the kind of mental incompetence that you’d normally get from a guy on a street corner, not from a guy who’s in second place in his party’s race for President.

Ben Carson admits he made up the names of the people he supposedly attacked violently

Just hours after several people from Ben Carson’s past confirmed that none of his claims about his own youth are true, Carson is responding by changing his story and admitting he made up the names of the people he claims to have attacked violently. The Presidential candidate got into hot water when he claimed to have committed several acts of violence in his youth, which sent researchers digging into his past and researching his life. It turns out none of his claims could be verified by anyone who knew him. And now we know why his supposed victims can’t be found: he’s finally admitting they don’t exist.

http://www.dailynewsbin.com/opinion/mainstream-media-finally-begins-referring-to-ben-carson-as-mentally-ill/22808/

Nobody lies all the time even the devil and some "good" guys can find themselves in a bigger hole trying to tunnel themselves out of a small lie. So try not to shot the messages just because you are displeased with the message.

[jonhowe]

Because the blowup doll of Richard Dawkins that he sleeps with every night tells him so. If you actually parse what these modern "materialists" think, it's about as ridiculous as what Carson said about the pyramids.
Not blowup, it's plush.


Why do you believe that?

Why do you believe they were there? Other than your anthology of mythological stories from the middle east?

My ancestors' mythology teaches me there is a city filled with gods on top of Mt Olympus. Let's go see if we can find it, eh?

[erowe1]

Why do you believe they were there? Other than your anthology of mythological stories from the middle east?

Why would you exclude evidence like that when studying history? Does the fact that Christians regard an ancient book as scripture mean that nothing that book mentions ever happened? If only nobody believed 1 Kings were inspired by God, then it would be of some use to historians, but since some people do, now it can't be? You made a positive claim that the Hebrews were never slaves in Egypt. You didn't say that it's uncertain whether they were or not, but that they certainly weren't. Do you have no reason behind that assertion at all?

As a matter of fact, the documents that Christians today count as the Old Testament do contain important evidence for this historicity of the Hebrews' enslavement in Egypt. Archaeology and Egyptian records corroborate this. Of course, those Egyptian records were also written by people who believed in gods you don't believe in, just like every other premodern text that we have.



My ancestors' mythology teaches me there is a city filled with gods on top of Mt Olympus. Let's go see if we can find it, eh?

The very same mythology that talks about the gods on Mt. Olympus also talks about lots of things that human beings did in actual places and times in this world, many of which most historians believe to be historical. Do you rule them all out too just because an ancient text that mentions them also mentions gods that you don't believe in?

[jonhowe]

Why would you exclude evidence like that when studying history? Did nothing the Bible talks about really happen? You made a positive claim that the Hebrews were never slaves in Egypt. You didn't say that it's uncertain whether they were or not, but that they certainly weren't. Do you have no reason behind that assertion at all?



The very same mythology that talks about the gods on Mt. Olympus also talks about lots of things that human beings did in actual places and times in this world, many of which most historians believe to be historical. Do you rule them all out too just because an ancient text that mentions them also mentions gods that you don't believe in?

No. I rule out the clearly supernatural ones, as well as the ones unsupported by actual evidence. Like the Jews in egypt. Or Medusa.

There probably was a Trojan war. There certainly was not a giant cyclops that ate people. Just as the entire Hebrew race of was almost certainly not enslaved in Egypt.

[DevilsAdvocate]

http://i.4cdn.org/pol/1446924681938.jpg

[erowe1]

No. I rule out the clearly supernatural ones, as well as the ones unsupported by actual evidence. Like the Jews in egypt. Or Medusa.

There probably was a Trojan war. There certainly was not a giant cyclops that ate people. Just as the entire Hebrew race of was almost certainly not enslaved in Egypt.

Being slaves in Egypt isn't clearly supernatural. If you believe it isn't supported by actual evidence, why is that?

Now it's "the entire Hebrew race"? That's not what you said before. Nobody, including the Bible, ever said that the entire Hebrew race was ever enslaved in Egypt.

[r3volution 3.0]

Everyone here knows/agrees the Hebrews were never enslaved in Egypt, right? It's literally made up.

It's a common view among academics that Jews may have served as mercenaries for the Egyptian state during the Bronze Age.

From this, it's not hard to imagine how the biblical story may have evolved. Think Visigoths in the late Roman Empire.

[anaconda]

Stalin DID NOT build the pyramids. What is Ben Carson thinking?

[Crashland]

Well, if Joseph didn't build the pyramids, then who did? Aliens?


Stalin DID NOT build the pyramids. What is Ben Carson thinking?

Bernie Madoff built the pyramids.

[TheNewYorker]

Stalin DID NOT build the pyramids. What is Ben Carson thinking?

Of course not, he would have made them of steel, not huge bricks.

[robert9712000]

While Joseph may not have built the pyramids, there is a compelling documentary on Netflix that shows some pretty definitive evidence that the Jews were in Egypt and then Joseph was real. It even shows artifacts that support a Exodus. If you are into all history i think you will find the documentary "Patterns of evidence: Exodus" fascinating.

[erowe1]

While Joseph may not have built the pyramids, there is a compelling documentary on Netflix that shows some pretty definitive evidence that the Jews were in Egypt and then Joseph was real. It even shows artifacts that support a Exodus. If you are into all history i think you will find the documentary "Patterns of evidence: Exodus" fascinating.

Is that really on Netflix now? I've been wanting to see it since it came out in theaters awhile back.

ETA: Sure enough. I just checked and it's up there. Thanks for the tip.

@johnhowe, Before you spout off any more about a subject you've never studied, you might want to look into it. This documentary is a good place to start.

[anaconda]

Carson was referring to the popular former TV game show:

https://mcdn1.teacherspayteachers.com/thumbitem/10000-Pyramid-PowerPoint-Game-Show-template/original-81518-1.jpg

[Ronin Truth]

How long did it take Joseph to build them, according to Ben?

[Philhelm]

If I recall correctly, building the Pyramid wonder in a Civ game confers a food production bonus. Perhaps Carson isn't so crazy after all?

[idiom]

When did the slavery of the Jews in Egypt begin .................................... supposedly?

Right after Joseph enslaved every single fucking person in Egypt. Genesis 47. It wasn't the Hebrews (the Jews were only one of the 13 tribes) that were slaves, it was everybody. And it was because of FUCKING JOSEPH.

[idiom]

Being slaves in Egypt isn't clearly supernatural. If you believe it isn't supported by actual evidence, why is that?

Now it's "the entire Hebrew race"? That's not what you said before. Nobody, including the Bible, ever said that the entire Hebrew race was ever enslaved in Egypt.

Have you read, like, any of the Bible?


And Pharaoh spake unto Joseph, saying, Thy father and thy brethren are come unto thee:

6 The land of Egypt is before thee; in the best of the land make thy father and brethren to dwell;

Josephs entire family, the ancestors of the Hebrews moves to Egypt


Wherefore shall we die before thine eyes, both we and our land? buy us and our land for bread, and we and our land will be servants unto Pharaoh: and give us seed, that we may live, and not die, that the land be not desolate.

20 And Joseph bought all the land of Egypt for Pharaoh; for the Egyptians sold every man his field, because the famine prevailed over them: so the land became Pharaoh's.

21 And as for the people, he removed them to cities from one end of the borders of Egypt even to the other end thereof.

Joseph enslaves the fuck out of Egypt.

Ergo, Joseph set up the system that would lead to the Hebrews being slaves along with everyone else.


Anybody who references Joseph in any sort of good light needs to be kept the hell out of government.

[Peace&Freedom]

Ergo, Joseph set up the system that would lead to the Hebrews being slaves along with everyone else.

Anybody who references Joseph in any sort of good light needs to be kept the hell out of government.

Actually, the Bible explains it was the forgetting or abandonment of the ways of Joseph by the next generation of rulers that led to the enslavement of the Israelites:


"Now a new king arose over Egypt, who did not know Joseph. He said to his people, "Behold, the people of the sons of Israel are more and mightier than we. "Come, let us deal wisely with them, or else they will multiply and in the event of war, they will also join themselves to those who hate us, and fight against us and depart from the land." So they appointed taskmasters over them to afflict them with hard labor..." Exodus 1:8-11

[erowe1]

Have you read, like, any of the Bible?



Josephs entire family, the ancestors of the Hebrews moves to Egypt



Joseph enslaves the fuck out of Egypt.

Ergo, Joseph set up the system that would lead to the Hebrews being slaves along with everyone else.


Anybody who references Joseph in any sort of good light needs to be kept the hell out of government.

Where did you get the idea that Joseph's family were the ancestors of the Hebrews? There were many other descendants of Eber in the world at the time that Jacob's family went down to Egypt.

Yes, Ive read the Bible.

Where do you get your ideas of morality that dictate that anyone who references Joseph in a good light should be kept out of government? And who here did that anyway?

And since when is buying someone's land the same as enslaving them? They sold the land voluntarily. And they benefited from doing so.

[idiom]

And since when is buying someone's land the same as enslaving them? They sold the land voluntarily. And they benefited from doing so.

They sold the land and themselves, to avoid starving to death, in exchange for food they had grown that Joseph had taken.

Voluntarily.


"buy us and our land for bread, and we and our land will be servants unto Pharaoh"

[idiom]

Actually, the Bible explains it was the forgetting or abandonment of the ways of Joseph by the next generation of rulers that led to the enslavement of the Israelites:

The Bible actually says they kept the ways of Joseph, they just forgot him. The systems he set up led to the enslavement of his family.


26 And Joseph made it a law over the land of Egypt unto this day, that Pharaoh should have the fifth part, except the land of the priests only, which became not Pharaoh's.

27 And Israel dwelt in the land of Egypt, in the country of Goshen; and they had possessions therein, and grew, and multiplied exceedingly.

So basically the descendants of Israel fell victim to the unintended consequences of the abuses of power by one of their patriarchs.

[YesI'mALiberal]

26 And Joseph made it a law over the land of Egypt unto this day, that Pharaoh should have the fifth part, except the land of the priests only, which became not Pharaoh's.

20-20-20!

[Peace&Freedom]

The Bible actually says they kept the ways of Joseph, they just forgot him. The systems he set up led to the enslavement of his family.


Joseph's instituting a law regarding the treatment of the land, is not the same thing as a later ruler instituting enslavement in his treatment of the people. Nor is it established in any way from the text that one led to the other. Ex 1:8-11 does not suggest land considerations led them to enslave---it was forgetting Joseph and fearing the people that did.

[TheNewYorker]

If I recall correctly, building the Pyramid wonder in a Civ game confers a food production bonus. Perhaps Carson isn't so crazy after all?

Pyramids: Tile improvement construction speed increased by 25% and 2 Workers appear near the City

[enhanced_deficit]

If I recall correctly, building the Pyramid wonder in a Civ game confers a food production bonus. Perhaps Carson isn't so crazy after all?



I know little about 7DA but skeptics could be underestimating divine truths that Dr. Ben Carson CEO MD may have access to.



Ben Carson has a painting of him with Jesus (http://nypost.com/2015/11/08/ben-carson-features-portrait-of-him-and-jesus-in-home/)

November 8, 2015
https://********************************/2015/11/ben-carson-jesus.jpg?quality=100&strip=all&w=664&h=441&crop=1
Ben Carson has this painting of him with Jesus in his home in Upperco, Md.

[YesI'mALiberal]

https://********************************/2015/11/ben-carson-jesus.jpg?quality=100&strip=all&w=664&h=441&crop=1



BRODY: How is that conversation going with God about this potential presidential run? Has He grabbed you by the collar yet? I read an article about that.

CARSON: I feel fingers. But, um, it’s mostly me. I have to be sure. And I have a surgical personality which says always look before you leap, and don’t leap before you have to.

[enhanced_deficit]

BRODY: How is that conversation going with God about this potential presidential run? Has He grabbed you by the collar yet? I read an article about that.

CARSON: I feel fingers. But, um, it’s mostly me. I have to be sure. And I have a surgical personality which says always look before you leap, and don’t leap before you have to.

He has come a long way. Before he developed surgical personality, he used to have a younger personality that leaped to stab someone without looking at belt buckle.

[idiom]

Joseph's instituting a law regarding the treatment of the land, is not the same thing as a later ruler instituting enslavement in his treatment of the people. Nor is it established in any way from the text that one led to the other. Ex 1:8-11 does not suggest land considerations led them to enslave---it was forgetting Joseph and fearing the people that did.

Yeah the Egyptian people had absolutely no memory of who swindled them out of their land. They hated the children of Israel purely for being Jewish and were jealous of them.

[erowe1]

They sold the land and themselves, to avoid starving to death, in exchange for food they had grown that Joseph had taken.

Voluntarily.

Heaven forfend that somebody who risks starving to death should be allowed to sell their property in exchange for food.

[Bman]

You have a whole slew of morons who believe the big bang theory so why not?

[Peace&Freedom]

Yeah the Egyptian people had absolutely no memory of who swindled them out of their land. They hated the children of Israel purely for being Jewish and were jealous of them.

Since the text says Joseph had been forgotten (as the events of the Exodus were hundreds of years later), it means he had been forgotten, period. A transaction is not a swindle---one could counter argue that by accepting drought-ravaged, almost valueless land as payment, it was Joseph and the government who got the bad end of the bargain.

Compared to the purchase of Manhattan Island by the colonists, the Egyptian people got a better deal (enough life saving seeds to save the population in exchange for barren land, whereas the Native Americans got no where near the same value). As for bondage, I don't like the decision made by the Egyptians, but it was also part of the transaction. I thought the secular libertarian doctrine of some here was "I own myself." If that's true, what's wrong with selling yourself into slavery?

[Ronin Truth]

Was Ben taught that in church?

[Jamesiv1]

I think Carson mis-spoke saying Joseph built the pyramids - I think he simply meant that Joseph *used* the pyramids for storing grain. Joseph was the Pharoah's head guy in charge of storing up grain for the coming 7-year famine, so sure... why not?

If his point about hermetically sealed compartments is true, his theory is not unreasonable.

[idiom]

Heaven forfend that somebody who risks starving to death should be allowed to sell their property in exchange for food.

Where pray-tell did Joseph get the food?

[idiom]

I think Carson mis-spoke saying Joseph built the pyramids - I think he simply meant that Joseph *used* the pyramids for storing grain. Joseph was the Pharoah's head guy in charge of storing up grain for the coming 7-year famine, so sure... why not?

If his point about hermetically sealed compartments is true, his theory is not unreasonable.

They pyramids have almost no internal volume.

Egypt had granaries near the cities. Why would anyone transport grain so far away, to store such a tiny amount of it?

[erowe1]

Where pray-tell did Joseph get the food?

He saved it up over seven good years.

[Dr.3D]

Where pray-tell did Joseph get the food?
From the seven years of great plenty.

Genesis 41:29 Behold, there come seven years of great plenty throughout all the land of Egypt:

Genesis 41:48 And he gathered up all the food of the seven years, which were in the land of Egypt, and laid up the food in the cities: the food of the field, which was round about every city, laid he up in the same.

[idiom]

From the seven years of great plenty.

Right... So Joseph was a farmer???

What forum am I even on?

How is using state power to seize goods and create a monopoly, then using that monopoly to exort an entire country out of its possessions a god damn voluntary exchange?

Joseph could very easily have rationed out the food over a seven year period to the farmers he had 'gathered' it from.

How are people defending the use of the state to enslave citizens?!?

[Dr.3D]

Right... So Joseph was a farmer???

What forum am I even on?

How is using state power to seize goods and create a monopoly, then using that monopoly to exort an entire country out of its possessions a god damn voluntary exchange?

Joseph could very easily have rationed out the food over a seven year period to the farmers he had 'gathered' it from.

How are people defending the use of the state to enslave citizens?!?

You should tell that to Pharaoh, he was the boss at the time.

[erowe1]

How are people defending the use of the state to enslave citizens?!?

I haven't seen anyone do that. Can you provide the quote you're talking about?

[idiom]

You should tell that to Pharaoh, he was the boss at the time.

Well, see Pharaoh said...


41 And Pharaoh said unto Joseph, See, I have set thee over all the land of Egypt.

So clearly Joseph could do whatever he wanted.

[idiom]

He saved it up over seven good years.

He didn't save it up.

He seized 20% of all the grain for seven years.

Then he traded it back to the people who had grown in it the first place at rates so extortionate that they had to sell themselves into slavery to avoid starvation just 3 years into the famine.

And he did it with all the power of the state.

[idiom]

I haven't seen anyone do that. Can you provide the quote you're talking about?

Hmm lets see...


And since when is buying someone's land the same as enslaving them? They sold the land voluntarily. And they benefited from doing so.

They sold their land and themselves in exchange for food that they grew and had been taken from them.

You don't even believe in free will so I guess I can see how you would think this exchange counts as voluntary. Threaten people with death if they don't do what you say... its voluntary as long as your threat is a passive one? Even if you constructed the passive threat of death?

[idiom]

http://i.imgur.com/JqMwgOF.jpg

[enhanced_deficit]

Ben Carson Thinks There’s a Star of David on the Dollar Bill. There’s Not. (http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/ben-carson-thinks-star-david-dollar-bill/story?id=35562091)
Dec 3, 2015
Addressing the Republican Jewish Coalition today, Republican presidential candidate Dr. Ben Carson told a story about how the Star of David came to be on the U.S. dollar bill.
Only one problem: There’s no Star of David on the dollar bill.
Carson was telling the story of wealthy Jewish merchant Haym Salomon, who is said to have been a major financier of George Washington’s troops during the Revolutionary War.
"Salomon gave all his funds to save the U.S. Army and, some say, no one knows for sure, that’s the reason there’s a Star of David on the back of the one dollar bill," Carson said in Washington, D.C.
There is a conspiracy theory that a design of stars arranged above the eagle on the U.S. seal printed on the bill forms a Jewish star and that this was done as a way to thank Salomon for his generosity.
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/ben-c...ry?id=35562091 (http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/ben-carson-thinks-star-david-dollar-bill/story?id=35562091)

[devil21]

Ben Carson Thinks There’s a Star of David on the Dollar Bill. There’s Not. (http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/ben-carson-thinks-star-david-dollar-bill/story?id=35562091)
Dec 3, 2015
Addressing the Republican Jewish Coalition today, Republican presidential candidate Dr. Ben Carson told a story about how the Star of David came to be on the U.S. dollar bill.
Only one problem: There’s no Star of David on the dollar bill.
Carson was telling the story of wealthy Jewish merchant Haym Salomon, who is said to have been a major financier of George Washington’s troops during the Revolutionary War.
"Salomon gave all his funds to save the U.S. Army and, some say, no one knows for sure, that’s the reason there’s a Star of David on the back of the one dollar bill," Carson said in Washington, D.C.
There is a conspiracy theory that a design of stars arranged above the eagle on the U.S. seal printed on the bill forms a Jewish star and that this was done as a way to thank Salomon for his generosity.
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/ben-c...ry?id=35562091 (http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/ben-carson-thinks-star-david-dollar-bill/story?id=35562091)

Well, it is there. And the Star of David has much older symbolic significance than just a sign for Judaism.

[jmdrake]

http://i.imgur.com/JqMwgOF.jpg

Question. Why did the great pyramid of Giza not have anyone buried in it? Why no hieroglyphs or anything else associated with an Egyptian burial? Why did some Egyptian scholars in the past advance the grain theory? I'm not saying it's right, but the idea being pushed by the media, and you in this post, that all of the pyramids were expensive tombs is simply false. Why are you propagating it without even thinking about it? Just because it makes a good joke?

[jmdrake]

Well, it is there. And the Star of David has much older symbolic significance than just a sign for Judaism.

http://tabish.me/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/star-of-david-dollar-bill.jpg

[Ronin Truth]

Well, it is there. And the Star of David has much older symbolic significance than just a sign for Judaism.

2D Merkabah representation?

[torchbearer]

When did the slavery of the Jews in Egypt begin .................................... supposedly?


Hebrews?

[Ronin Truth]

Hebrews?

OK, Hebrews.

When?

[torchbearer]

OK, Hebrews.

When?



Academics have narrowed the time period during which the Exodus might have occurred to the reign of three kings, or pharoahs, who are first called such in Egyptian texts. First was King Akhenaten, who reportedly brought monotheism to Egypt (as Dayan believes that groups of Hebrews resided in Egypt since the beginning of Jewish history, it is plausible either that the king passed monotheism onto the Jews or that they could have influenced his theology); next was Ramses II, who moved the Egyptian capital to the delta where many “Habirus” — or Hebrews — resided and also near to where the haggadah says that Israelites “built treasure cities Pitom and Ramses” for Pharoah; and then there is Merneptah Stele, the son of Ramses II who, among his many conquests, conquered “Israel” in the land of Canaan — an indication that the Israelites had already left Egypt and were living in the land.

http://www.jewishjournal.com/passover/article/passover_proof_lies_in_egyptian_hieroglyphs_201003 24/

[Ronin Truth]

http://www.jewishjournal.com/passover/article/passover_proof_lies_in_egyptian_hieroglyphs_201003 24/

Any time relevant artifacts recovered from the bottom of the Red Sea, yet?

[torchbearer]

Any time relevant artifacts recovered from the bottom of the Red Sea, yet?


During my studies it was posed that it was the Sea of Reeds, not the red sea. the hebrews being in eqypt can be confirmed, the hebrews making it to canaan can be confirmed, and the now israelites being conquered again can be confirmed. a chase through a trench in the red sea can not be confirmed.

[enhanced_deficit]

Well, it is there. And the Star of David has much older symbolic significance than just a sign for Judaism.

I just reported news, will have to examine the issue once I can locate a dollar bill.


But sometimes people seem too rough to Ben Casron, mideastern things can be confusing for foreign experts. It is quite possible that Ben Carson is not as stupid as he appears.


Ben Carson Confuses 'Hamas' With 'Hummus'

6 days ago - In a rather stiff speech to the Republican Jewish Coalition today, Ben Carson appeared to struggle to pronounce the name of Hamas, the ...
http://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/nb/...n-about-hummus (http://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/nb/tim-graham/2015/12/06/npr-anchor-couldnt-resist-mocking-ben-carson-about-hummus)

[jmdrake]

He didn't save it up.

He seized 20% of all the grain for seven years.

Then he traded it back to the people who had grown in it the first place at rates so extortionate that they had to sell themselves into slavery to avoid starvation just 3 years into the famine.

And he did it with all the power of the state.

You're exactly right. Joseph taxed the people and then sold them back their own grain. That said, if he hadn't done that, would any of them have followed the process on their own or would they have starved to death? And yeah....sounds statist like social security only a bit more honest. Of course a free market approach would be for Joseph to contract with the farmers and say "Hey, let me have some of your grain and I'll store it for you for a fee and give it back to you over time when there is a famine." Some would have believed him....some wouldn't have.

[Ronin Truth]

During my studies it was posed that it was the Sea of Reeds, not the red sea. the hebrews being in eqypt can be confirmed, the hebrews making it to canaan can be confirmed, and the now israelites being conquered again can be confirmed. a chase through a trench in the red sea can not be confirmed.

Same artifact recovery/salvage question. Any chariot parts, skeletons, metallic Egyptian weapons, etc.?