The VW “Scandal”

[Anti Federalist]

The VW “Scandal”

http://ericpetersautos.com/2015/09/23/crucified-by-uncle/

by eric • September 23, 2015

This could kill VW – until recently (until last week) the world’s largest car company.

But unlike say the exploding Pinto fiasco this is not a story about defective cars.

It is a story about defective public policy.

None of the VW cars now in the crosshairs are unreliable, dangerous or shoddily built. They were simply programmed to give their owners best-case fuel economy and performance. Software embedded within each vehicle’s computer – which monitors and controls the operation of the engine – would furtively adjust those parameters slightly to sneak by emissions tests when the vehicle was plugged in for testing. But once out on the road, the calibrations would revert to optimal – for mileage and performance.

Now, the hysterical media accounts of the above make it seem that the alteration via code of the vehicles’ exhaust emissions was anything but slight. Shrill cries of up to “40 times” the “allowable maximum” echo across the land.

Well, true.

But, misleading.

Because not defined – put in context.

What is the “allowable maximum”?

It is a very small number.

Less than 1 percent of the total volume of the car’s exhaust. We are talking fractions of percentages here. Which is why talk of “40 percent” is so misleading and, frankly, deliberately dishonest.

Left out of context, the figure sounds alarming. As in 40 percent of 100 percent.

As opposed to 40 percent of the remaining unscrubbed 1-3 percent or .05 percent or whatever it is (depending on the specific “harmful” byproduct being belabored).

The truth – explained rarely, for reasons that will become obvious – is that the emissions of new cars (and recent-vintage cars) have been so thoroughly cleaned up they hardly exist at all. Catalytic converters (and especially “three way” catalytic converters with oxygen sensors) and fuel injection alone eliminated about two-thirds of the objectionable effluvia from the exhaust stream – and they’ve been around since the 1980s. Most of the remaining third was dealt with during the ’90s, via more precise forms of fuel delivery (port fuel injection replaced throttle body fuel injection) and more sophisticated engine computers capable of real-time monitoring and adjustment of parameters, and of alerting the vehicle’s owner to the need for a check (OBD II).

Since the late ’90s/early 2000s, the industry has been chasing diminishing returns. The remaining 3 percent or so of the exhaust stream that’s not been “controlled.”

You may begin to see the problem here.

Internal combustion is always going to produce some emissions. The engineers have picked the low hanging (and mid-hanging) fruit. But the EPA insists on what amounts to a zero emissions internal combustion engine.

Which, of course, is impossible.

Which may be just the point.

Set unattainable standards – then denounce the victim for “noncompliance.”

VW’s sin was trying to get diesels that people would want to buy into the showrooms. These would be diesels that went farther than an otherwise-equivalent gas-engined car on a gallon of fuel to offset the higher up-front cost of buying the diesel-powered vehicle. Or at least, far enough – relative to the gas-engined equivalent – to justify the price premium.

People also expected – demanded – that the vehicles perform. That they accelerate when the accelerator is pushed.atlas shrugged image

VW set the calibrations to deliver those things. The operating characteristics its customers want.

VW is in hot water because of that. Because it put customers – rather than government – first.

No one has alleged that any of the “affected” vehicles runs poorly.

The fact is they run better than they would have if VW had set the calibrations to appease the implacable EPA.

Which will never be appeased until we’re all driving $60,000 “zero emissions” electric cars we can’t afford. Which will put most of us into public (that is, government) transport. If we’re transported at all. Probably, we’ll be herded into urban cores, stacked like proles – for the sake of “the environment.”

It is a tragedy of stupidity and maliciousness and engineering ignorance.

Consider, for instance, the fact that if it were not for federal “safety” mandates, VW (and other car companies) would be able to sell vehicles hundreds of pounds lighter than the current average. Which, in turn, would allow for smaller engines – which burn less fuel. Which, in turn produce a lesser volume of exhaust. Even if a hypothetical 1,600 pound ultra-light vehicle’s exhaust stream were, let’s say, 2 percent “dirtier” than a current 2,300 pound EPA (and DOT) approved “safety” car’s, if the ultra-light burns 40 percent less fuel, its total output is still much lower than then government-approved car’s.

But such cars (the ultra-lights) have – effectively – been legislated out of existence.

At the same time, the cars that may still be manufactured are required to meet increasingly unattainable standards, putting the manufacturers (like VW) in the position of manufacturing government-compliant cars that cost too much and perform poorly that few will want to buy… or “cheating” the government, in order to build cars people will actually want to buy.

What’s happening to VW could have come right out of Atlas Shrugged, Ayn Rand’s cumbersome but nonetheless predictive novel of 50 years ago. VW cast as the real-life version of Rearden Steel.

Some inside baseball: Mazda has been trying to get its Sky-D diesel engine EPA-compliant (while also customer-viable) for the past two years, without success so far. You are denied this 50-plus MPG (and extremely clean) diesel because of the particulate jihadists in Washington.

Remember: In neither case (VW or Mazda) are we talking about a return to the LA of the early ’70s, a feasting on lead chip paints and bathing in DDT.

It’s all a bogey at this point. A straw man. A phantom, meant to scare you. But it has no reality.

The “emissions problem” has been solved – decades ago. But the EPA, et al, cannot admit this.

Because then there’d be no need for the EPA.

[Brian4Liberty]

Are the emission standards for a passenger VW the same as they are for other vehicles like big rigs, pick-ups, various construction vehicles, buses, gardening equipment, etc?

[CaptUSA]

Follow the money. VW gives less than 10% of the amount other car companies pay to politicians in political donations.

That's all. It's about setting up a regulatory state to punish those who don't pay up. Legal extortion at its best.

[klamath]

I agree with the article but is he confusing "40 times" with "40%"?

[Acala]

Good article. EPA was set up for a permanent, and typical of all bureaucracies, expanding existence. It was not created to solve a problem and then go away. Hence it continues to redefine the "problem" to perpetuate its mission.

[fatjohn]

As a european, this is the third time the americans are damaging our economy in the past year.

First by blowing the russia ukraine stand off out of proportions and pushing us into sanctions against russia

Then by destabilizing surrounding muslim countries like libya and syria.

Now this!

FU obama administration.

[Acala]

As a european, this is the third time the americans are damaging our economy in the past year.

First by blowing the russia ukraine stand off out of proportions and pushing us into sanctions against russia

Then by destabilizing surrounding muslim countries like libya and syria.

Now this!

FU obama administration.

We are just trying to protect your freedom!

[klamath]

As a european, this is the third time the americans are damaging our economy in the past year.

First by blowing the russia ukraine stand off out of proportions and pushing us into sanctions against russia

Then by destabilizing surrounding muslim countries like libya and syria.

Now this!

FU obama administration.Actually it was Europe mainly france the pushed the Libyan intervention. However Germany had no part in that.

[heavenlyboy34]

As a european, this is the third time the americans are damaging our economy in the past year.

First by blowing the russia ukraine stand off out of proportions and pushing us into sanctions against russia

Then by destabilizing surrounding muslim countries like libya and syria.

Now this!

FU obama administration.

We're #1, so take it like a bitch! 'Murica, fuck yeah! ;)

[Sonny Tufts]

What’s happening to VW could have come right out of Atlas Shrugged, Ayn Rand’s cumbersome but nonetheless predictive novel of 50 years ago. VW cast as the real-life version of Rearden Steel.

Hardly. Rearden wouldn't have lied to his customers.

[Anti Federalist]

I agree with the article but is he confusing "40 times" with "40%"?

It's like this:

1 ppm of NOx is allowed, per gram of fuel (or whatever, it is a tiny amount)

40 ppm, at max, were observed.

[Anti Federalist]

Hardly. Rearden wouldn't have lied to his customers.

I own one these VWs.

I'm not sure who to be more pissed off at right now.

But I do have to admire the outright "fuck you" attitude toward EPA.

Eric is right, they sold me a car that did exactly what I wanted: provide good performance, longevity and outstanding fuel economy in a relatively simple, manual transmission package.

[Anti Federalist]

http://i.imgur.com/7ef3GAj.png

[limequat]

Are the emission standards for a passenger VW the same as they are for other vehicles like big rigs, pick-ups, various construction vehicles, buses, gardening equipment, etc?

Nope.

[Anti Federalist]

http://country-balls.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/country-balls-a-land-of-muslim-rooskies-with-oil.png

[limequat]

I don't have proof, but I suspect, somebody somewhere in VW decreed: you will meet diesel emissions standards with NO urea injection!

For those of us that are not dieselgeeks, most OEMs are only able to meet emissions standards by injecting synthetic cat piss into the exhaust stream. This forces a reaction of NOx emissions into plain ol' Nitrogen (as in the shit we breathe) and water. Otherwise, the NOx tends to form a nitric acid and could even precipitate acid rain.

The problem is, it's yet another tank to fill, another maintenance expense, another thing to go wrong. The customer DOES NOT WANT IT.

VW galloped in on their white horse and introduced their clean, torquey diesels, that better EPA fuel economy figures and .... do not require Urea injection.
The market loved it. In hindsight, we probably could have guessed what happened at that point.

So now, millions of VW diesel owners are gonna have to go in for a recall, and their cars are gonna come out making less power and getting less fuel economy. Would you take time out of your day for that recall?

Anyway, VW delivered what the market wants instead of what the government wants. That is why they will pay. I'm not saying they're the heroes here, because they lied to their customers too. But if I had to pick sides, I'd go with the guy that sells shit that people want over the guy sits around and beats the first guy with a stick.

[Ender]

I own one these VWs.

I'm not sure who to be more pissed off at right now.

But I do have to admire the outright "fuck you" attitude toward EPA.

Eric is right, they sold me a car that did exactly what I wanted: provide good performance, longevity and outstanding fuel economy in a relatively simple, manual transmission package.

Here's the REAL VW "scandal"


Volkswagen and Foreign Policy
Karen De Coster

Government Motors executives knowingly kept putting faulty ignition switches on vehicles, playing the numbers game and covering up its con game that killed 120+ people. Then they pocket the US Justice Department and walk away with inconsequential fines and no criminal prosecution.

The Peanut Corporation of America (PCA) will have 3 corporate officers/managers sent to prison for a very long time for a salmonella outbreak, even in spite of shaky evidence that these folks were acting out in a criminal manner.

Volkswagen *increases its investment in Russia* and bypasses the EPA’s politically-motivated, special interest-benefiting mandates, and so the company is currently being threatened with $18B in fines, while that same Justice Department cranks up a criminal probe and the financial markets slaughter 20%+ of the company’s value. Volkswagen is now an object of US foreign policy and Middle East diplomacy.

As dominoes continue to fall — Germany, France, the United Kingdom, South Korea and Italy are calling for queries into Volkswagen — the damage to the iconic German company became more clear Tuesday. Volkswagen CEO Martin Winterkorn has apologized and is fighting to keep his job, denying reports in German media that he would be replaced by Matthias Müller, the chairman of VW’s sister company Porsche. Volkswagen’s stock dropped nearly 20 percent Tuesday, a repeat of Monday’s slide. Qatar, the oil rich nation that is one of the Volkswagen’s largest shareholders, has already lost $5 billion on its investment.

7:37 pm on September 22, 2015

https://www.lewrockwell.com/lrc-blog/volkswagen-and-foreign-policy/

[phill4paul]

Good article. EPA was set up for a permanent, and typical of all bureaucracies, expanding existence. It was not created to solve a problem and then go away. Hence it continues to redefine the "problem" to perpetuate its mission.

Where the hell are they gonna get a pay-check if they declare "problem solved?" Just like MADD, the goal posts have to keep moving to make them relevant.

[dannno]

I own one these VWs.

I'm not sure who to be more pissed off at right now.

But I do have to admire the outright "fuck you" attitude toward EPA.

Eric is right, they sold me a car that did exactly what I wanted: provide good performance, longevity and outstanding fuel economy in a relatively simple, manual transmission package.

I'm just mad they got caught.

[Acala]

Where the hell are they gonna get a pay-check if they declare "problem solved?" Just like MADD, the goal posts have to keep moving to make them relevant.

Yup. Once an agency was created to both define the problem and then solve it, the problem became permanent.

[Acala]

So now, millions of VW diesel owners are gonna have to go in for a recall, and their cars are gonna come out making less power and getting less fuel economy. Would you take time out of your day for that recall?



No. Unless I must in order to keep my vehicle registered, which I think is likely. Then I will be the one who is screwed.

[georgiaboy]

I'm thinking Rand could make some serious anti-big gov hay with this one.

VW Owners = voters

[phill4paul]

No. Unless I must in order to keep my vehicle registered, which I think is likely. Then I will be the one who is screwed.

Depends on the emission testing standards for given states.

You know, I could actually see the EPA getting involved in this one right down to the consumer. They could easily get the purchaser records from VW as part of a "leniency" deal. Then send notice to the owners that they need to submit recall proof or be fined.

[dannno]

Depends on the emission testing standards for given states.

You know, I could actually see the EPA getting involved in this one right down to the consumer. They could easily get the purchaser records from VW as part of a "leniency" deal. Then send notice to the owners that they need to submit recall proof or be fined.

Nah, like I said in the other thread I think they'll probably just stop them from being able to re-register their vehicles until they get it done.

[Acala]

Depends on the emission testing standards for given states.

You know, I could actually see the EPA getting involved in this one right down to the consumer. They could easily get the purchaser records from VW as part of a "leniency" deal. Then send notice to the owners that they need to submit recall proof or be fined.

It's even easier than that. EPA simply orders States with Clean Air Act primacy to require proof of the mods. Then I will need to show proof in order to get my emissions cert, which is needed to update my tags. I don't see any way around it. The EPA wants to savage VW. I have seen first hand EPA using innocent parties as tools to get at their real target. EPA will hurt the owners of the vehicles so the owners will turn around and sue VW.

So what is the diminution in value to my vehicle from having its performance and economy significantly diminshed? I should think it would be at least ten percent of the value. Let's say a thousand dollars. Now multiply that by millions of vehicles. The civil liability to VW is potantially in the billions.

[limequat]

Is anybody else thinking of ways to make money off this huge government-induced market disruption?

[kcchiefs6465]

Is anybody else thinking of ways to make money off this huge government-induced market disruption?
Not specifically.

I'd love a car that can cheat emissions tests though if you are looking into doing that.

[Yehudi]

So now, millions of VW diesel owners are gonna have to go in for a recall, and their cars are gonna come out making less power and getting less fuel economy. Would you take time out of your day for that recall?
I highly doubt most people will take their car in to be "repaired."

[Anti Federalist]

I highly doubt most people will take their car in to be "repaired."

As others already noted, it will be mandated.

Even in states with no inspection/emissions testing, you will end up having to prove that you took the vehicle in to get "hobbled" properly, or no registration renewal.

[Anti Federalist]

Ten percent?

That's more than generous.

Nobody will touch these cars in the second hand market now.

Our re-sale value is shot, kaput.


It's even easier than that. EPA simply orders States with Clean Air Act primacy to require proof of the mods. Then I will need to show proof in order to get my emissions cert, which is needed to update my tags. I don't see any way around it. The EPA wants to savage VW. I have seen first hand EPA using innocent parties as tools to get at their real target. EPA will hurt the owners of the vehicles so the owners will turn around and sue VW.

So what is the diminution in value to my vehicle from having its performance and economy significantly diminshed? I should think it would be at least ten percent of the value. Let's say a thousand dollars. Now multiply that by millions of vehicles. The civil liability to VW is potantially in the billions.

[phill4paul]

Ten percent?

That's more than generous.

Nobody will touch these cars in the second hand market now.

Our re-sale value is shot, kaput.

That's the government for you, always looking out for your best interests.

[Kade]

Alright. Is the core of this beef confined to the fact that regulations forced the hand of VW to cheat, and that ultimately those regulations are -- (insert common core RPF lingo)? Sure, I'll concede the regulatory points all the way up to Valhalla, fine. The fact remains that cheating is a divergence outside the boundary, independent of whatever boundary system you choose. VW chose to create a proprietary hack of their emissions system, (protected by some questionable IP law on the software) for the sole reason to pass emissions test to gain advantage in a competitive market (remember, ignoring whatever boundary we chose).

This has always been my MAJOR concern. In any competitive system, the boundaries are stretched and rocked until equilibrium is achieved. This is a pure cybernetica principle, and the math works in all sciences, especially evolutionary. Equilibrium in the human sense is normally achieved through dominance of one group or individual. Entirely sub-optimal to our shared political and societal goals.. (for most of us)...

So back to the cars. VW cheated. Regardless of the reasoning why, cheating must be punished in our society (to a nominal level of appropriateness), less we are willing to concede other unimaginary points about the human condition and, well, game theory in general.

[Kade]

Are the emission standards for a passenger VW the same as they are for other vehicles like big rigs, pick-ups, various construction vehicles, buses, gardening equipment, etc?

The emissions standards are the same for all vehicles in their class. Which is why the software built into the OBD was cheating.

[Working Poor]

Follow the money. VW gives less than 10% of the amount other car companies pay to politicians in political donations.

That's all. It's about setting up a regulatory state to punish those who don't pay up. Legal extortion at its best.

They are just doing what they have to do.:rolleyes:

[Anti Federalist]

So back to the cars. VW cheated. Regardless of the reasoning why, cheating must be punished in our society (to a nominal level of appropriateness), less we are willing to concede other unimaginary points about the human condition and, well, game theory in general.

Yeah, in the manner that a peck on the cheek from your secretary is "cheating" on your wife.

We're not talking hookers and blow cheating, making cars that are deliberately and definably dangerous lets say.

Western jurisprudence always had as one its guiding principle: the punishment fits the crime.

In these days of asset forfeiture, "three strikes", mandatory minimums and drug warriors, that has gone out the window.

Thus you have the possibility for 18 BILLION in fines for regulatory "work arounds".

Hi Kade, by the way.

[osan]

I don't see the problem here. I see no problem with adjusting the engines to give the best readings at idle during test. It's all a load of shit anyway.

It seems we are overdue for a near-extinction event because humanity is just to stupid to continue as its current average mental constitution stands. I say knock the fuckers back to the hunter-gatherer stage and start over. This all is just stupid, anymore.

[dannno]

So back to the cars. VW cheated. Regardless of the reasoning why, cheating must be punished in our society (to a nominal level of appropriateness), less we are willing to concede other unimaginary points about the human condition and, well, game theory in general.

The Jews who escaped concentration camps cheated, too.

[phill4paul]

I don't see the problem here. I see no problem with adjusting the engines to give the best readings at idle during test. It's all a load of shit anyway.

It seems we are overdue for a near-extinction event because humanity is just to stupid to continue as its current average mental constitution stands. I say knock the fuckers back to the hunter-gatherer stage and start over. This all is just stupid, anymore.

But, but, then we'd have to cook over fires that would destroy the ozone.

[Danke]

Ten percent?

That's more than generous.

Nobody will touch these cars in the second hand market now.

Our re-sale value is shot, kaput.

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/7SS24_CgwEM/maxresdefault.jpg


And such a sweet ride.


Buy 'merican next time.

[dannno]

It's even easier than that. EPA simply orders States with Clean Air Act primacy to require proof of the mods. Then I will need to show proof in order to get my emissions cert, which is needed to update my tags. I don't see any way around it. The EPA wants to savage VW. I have seen first hand EPA using innocent parties as tools to get at their real target. EPA will hurt the owners of the vehicles so the owners will turn around and sue VW.

So what is the diminution in value to my vehicle from having its performance and economy significantly diminshed? I should think it would be at least ten percent of the value. Let's say a thousand dollars. Now multiply that by millions of vehicles. The civil liability to VW is potantially in the billions.


Like $18 billion maybe? Of course the government gets to keep that :rolleyes:

[dannno]

Instead of fining VW, they should just make them install cat piss injectors on all the cars and give the owners some small amount of money to deal with it all and possible downfall from the ruling..

I mean, my solution would just be to abolish the EPA, but as far as staying within the current paradigm..

[Anti Federalist]

And such a sweet ride.

Buy 'merican next time.

Yeah, like a Honda.

[limequat]

I don't know.
I think a large contigent of TDI buyers are the mileage at any cost type. Emissions? Don't care. Slow? Don't care. Sounds funny? Don't care. Get 50 mpg on the freeway? YES PLEASE!

I think after the EPA has their way with the TDIs, there's gonna be a huge demand to revert them back to the way they were.

A gent mentioned to me that there might be a some money to be had in buying California cars (emissions testing) and selling them in Michigan (no emissions testing).


Ten percent?

That's more than generous.

Nobody will touch these cars in the second hand market now.

Our re-sale value is shot, kaput.

[limequat]

Also...who will be the first to test the Chevy Cruise in real world conditions? Why wasn't it test to compare against the VWs?

[pcosmar]

FU obama administration.

dear fatjohn

It goes far beyond Obama.
It goes to the same folks that infected Europe with Socialism. Who then infected the US.

[osan]

Alright. Is the core of this beef confined to the fact that regulations forced the hand of VW to cheat

FORCED? How do you reason?


Sure, I'll concede the regulatory points all the way up to Valhalla, fine.

Very generous of you.


The fact remains that cheating is a divergence outside the boundary, independent of whatever boundary system you choose.

Let us assume this to be a valid description of "cheating". Now consider the fact that VW did not CHOOSE the system. Rather, it was foisted upon them by dolts and dullards of the lowest cast; men of ignorance and almost certain corruption who were empowered by purest usurpation to make decisions for all, against all rationally justifiable and morally credible principle. *I* surely did not choose it, and while I will not speak for anyone else in particular, I will state with strong confidence that the same may be said for a very significant proportion of the of the nation. Of that last bit I hold zero doubt.

Given that we did not choose the system; given that it was forced upon us by threat and strong-arming; given that it was imposed with less than zero authority beyond the muzzle of the gun, I would have to thereby conclude that VW is in no possible way assessable as being guilty per your assertion. Your assertion carries the same credibility as the one that concludes that you are a murderer when you slay a cop who is attempting to arrest you at the end of a pistol where he has no just cause for so doing. Just as self-defense <> murder, evading the drag-inducing stupidity of governmental tyranny is in no conceivable way "cheating".

QED.


VW chose to create a proprietary hack of their emissions system,

And may God put his blessings upon them for having done so.


(protected by some questionable IP law on the software)

FAIL that smacks of strawmanery. The point is utterly irrelevant to the discussion at hand and serves but one purpose: to prejudice the reader by poisoning the well. In a court of law you would be spanked for this and, given a competent and honest judge, would be given an unequivocal warning about jail time if you did such a thing a second time, not to mention a possible mis-trial declaration.


for the sole reason to pass emissions test to gain advantage in a competitive market (remember, ignoring whatever boundary we chose).


Yeah - note your own adjectival massaging of "market" - COMPETITIVE. I once again heap praise upon VW for taking the initiative and remind you of your grotesque FAIL in asserting VW chose the system in question. FAIL FAIL ULTRA-ÜBER-FAIL.


This has always been my MAJOR concern.

As would only be expected of a dyed-in-the-wool statist.


In any competitive system, the boundaries are stretched and rocked until equilibrium is achieved.

This may be acceptable, so far as it goes. The statement, however, does not quite go far enough, but let us see where you take the broader discussion.


This is a pure cybernetica principle,

A what? I've been in "cybernetics" for over 30 years, have taught graduate-level comp. sci. courses at university, and yet I have no idea of what it is to which you here refer. Care to explain?


and the math works in all sciences, especially evolutionary.

Either this means something and I'm just not smart enough, or you're waving your hands a mite.


Equilibrium in the human sense is normally achieved through dominance of one group or individual.

Is it?


Entirely sub-optimal to our shared political and societal goals.. (for most of us)...

The hell? "shared political and societal goals"? The fact that the world is at its own throat on a thousand fronts speaking most eloquently to the point that the goals of which you appear to refer are not shared by very many. They are shoved down our throats in the manner of a hung porno-stud shoving it down the throat of his "co-star". Anyone thinking the poor lass is loving every inch has got to be a blind and hopelessly corrupt idiot, believing what he wants so he can successfully complete his stropping action at the expense of some poor stooge who got herself into far more than she dreamed would be part of the bargain.

One of the most fundamental problems of the race of men today is the virtually total absence of knowledge of what should be shared in such terms as you address. We don't think in terms of "breathing" and "beating hearts", but of whether vanilla ice cream should be mandated and chocolate banned. Shared political and societal goals, my ass. 99.999% of the race of men know nothing of what should qualify as such. Their "intellectual" lives along these lines are lived like bad acid trips.


So back to the cars. VW cheated.

By your own words and implied definition, given above, they most definitely did NOT.


Regardless of the reasoning why, cheating must be punished in our society

Oh well, in that case let me get on my jack-boots and practice my goose-stepping. ZFH! (Zieg Fucking Heil! - and yes, I know Sieg is the proper spelling, having once been a very fluent speaker of German)

"Cheating must be punished..." Says who? You? Please.


(to a nominal level of appropriateness),

Uh huh... and who will determine propriety here?


less we are willing to concede other unimaginary [sic] points about the human condition and, well, game theory in general.

Oh, so now we bring Nash into the fray? To what end?

[helmuth_hubener]

I don't see the problem here. I see no problem with adjusting the engines to give the best readings at idle during test. It's all a load of shit anyway.

It seems we are overdue for a near-extinction event because humanity is just to stupid to continue as its current average mental constitution stands. I say knock the fuckers back to the hunter-gatherer stage and start over. This all is just stupid, anymore.
You just don't realize how stupid we were before, or you probably wouldn't say that!

It took thousands of years of breeding for intelligence for Europe to get smart enough to come up with the Industrial Revolution. You want to throw that away and bet on it happening again... in a few thousand years? I don't. It took a lot of work to get to where we're at. A ton of work. A ton of patience. A ton of wisdom. Let's not throw that all away. Let's build on it.

[helmuth_hubener]

I mean, my solution would just be to abolish the EPA, but as far as staying within the current paradigm.. The is no solution within the "current paradigm."

The solution is just what you say:
abolish the tyrant E.P.A.!

[Anti Federalist]

The is no solution within the "current paradigm."

The solution is just what you say:
abolish the tyrant E.P.A.!

This!

No Regulation without Representation.

[helmuth_hubener]

Right! Who are these people? Who do they think they are? No elections. No accountability. No Constitutional authority. And yet, once in they're in for life and they can just decree whatever they want.

And we're supposed to go along with it?

We're supposed to pretend this is OK?

[phill4paul]

Right! Who are these people? Who do they think they are? No elections. No accountability. No Constitutional authority. And yet, once in they're in for life and they can just decree whatever they want.

And we're supposed to go along with it?

We're supposed to pretend this is OK?

You're supposed to do more than pretend. You're supposed to participate by funding.

And I do like the word "supposed."

adjective
generally assumed or believed to be the case, but not necessarily so.

[Lindsey]

Am I the only who heard this news story and had the first thought was positive toward VW? I was like, "Hell yeah. If they are making getting through emissions easier on me, sweet!" Everyone else in the room just looked at me funny.

[acptulsa]

The emissions standards are the same for all vehicles in their class. Which is why the software built into the OBD was cheating.

It's also why only Volkswagen even attempted to sell a diesel-powered vehicle in that (or any passenger car) class on these shores. Which admittedly makes them the ones who sell the loudest, most foul-smelling new passenger cars. And might make them the ones who sell the passenger cars most likely to put out actual deadly toxins. And certainly makes these cars the ones most likely to cause acid rain under any circumstances, since sodium is an element found in diesel oil and almost nonexistent in gasoline.

It also makes Volkswagen the company doing the most to curb carbon dioxide emissions (not a deadly toxin, or in any way limited by the EPA auto emissions regulations). And the company doing the most to help us cut our dependence on foreign oil that we keep dropping emissions-unregulated bombs on the middle east in order to obtain. All of this pertains directly to diesel engines. And if you'll notice, no one is accusing Volkswagen of cheating in this way with the engine management systems of their gasoline-powered products.

Now. Is this situation sparking any intelligent conversation on these matters? Do the powers that be have any intention of discussing these matters in any kind of a rational way? Will the media ever stop talking about Kareashians and Donald Trump's combover long enough to address this? And if not, then would not any liberal consider this a ripe moment for civil disobedience? And since VW did this only with their diesels and not their gas-powered products, would not this count as civil disobedience?

[osan]

Right! Who are these people? Who do they think they are? No elections. No accountability. No Constitutional authority. And yet, once in they're in for life and they can just decree whatever they want.

And we're supposed to go along with it?

We're supposed to pretend this is OK?


According to Themme, that is precisely what we are supposed to do.

Now, in practical terms, how do you propose we proceed such that we do not only fight Themme, but prevail? Without serious violence, I see little to no possibility. Why? Because Theye are now of a mindset such that they appear to hold our desires, pleadings, demands, whatever you wish to call them, as irrelevancies - just as if they did not exist.

Do you believe the Congress is going to abolish EPA? I suppose it is possible, but I also suppose the possibility is vanishingly thin. So, if Theye simply ignore us, which always seems to be the case, save in the truer irrelevancies like certain groups rioting and carrying on like imbeciles, what do you think people should materially do - that is, actually go out and execute in terms of real-deal, physical action? Protest? Have a love in? A hate-in? Have mass sex in the streets? Riot? What?

[helmuth_hubener]

Now, in practical terms, how do you propose we proceed such that we do not only fight Themme, but prevail?
What do you think people should materially do - that is, actually go out and execute in terms of real-deal, physical action? Protest? Have a love in? A hate-in? Have mass sex in the streets? Riot? What?
One sentence answer: You just ignore everything that’s stuck in a government quagmire and just create a new system.

One word answer: Entrepreneurship.

That's my own personal strategy.

[helmuth_hubener]

That is my favorite kind of question, by the way. It's the kind of question we should be asking ourselves and talking about a lot more often.

There's not just one answer either, by the way. Entrepreneurship is great, but is not for everyone. Certainly protests and education I would applaud and support. For people interested in that, I would suggest that Humor is a highly powerful and grossly underused tool we have at our disposal. If you are funny: be a hero and use it! Make us laugh! Your country will be forever grateful.

[osan]

You just don't realize how stupid we were before, or you probably wouldn't say that!

Who was stupid, and before what, exactly?


It took thousands of years of breeding for intelligence for Europe to get smart enough to come up with the Industrial Revolution.

The value of the IR is questionable, at the minimum. It is eminently arguable as well, so far as I can see.


You want to throw that away and bet on it happening again... in a few thousand years?

Do words to the effect of "I would like to see..." appear anywhere in that post? I wrote that IT SEEMS. Drawing a possible conclusion based on observed facts is a pretty far cry from expressing desire in this case. Do I want to return to hunter-gather mode? Not 100% sure, but probably not.


It took a lot of work to get to where we're at.

It also took a lot of tyranny to hold us back for thousands of years. I hope you realize that the IR became possible only after the enlightenment pretty well cut the balls off the church in the sense the Rome no longer held to sort of sway over men that could prevent them from inquiry and invention. Prior to, those bastards of the Holy See burned at the stake almost everyone and anyone who dared wander off the parochial plantation. Gallileo came frighteningly close to snuffing it. Did not Copernicus also dodge a pope's bullet by a hair's breadth when he challenged the Ptolemaic cosmology? They were some of the lucky ones. The church slaughtered millions of people for little or no valid reason, save that they sniffed past the wire.


A ton of work. A ton of patience. A ton of wisdom. Let's not throw that all away. Let's build on it.

Yes yes... sure. Now, how are we to do it in a world that is rapidly falling into a new Dark Age where the high priest forbids any path leading to sensible empowerment of the individual?

[helmuth_hubener]

Who was stupid, and before what, exactly? Humans were more stupid, before now. Go back to 20,000 BC and try to have an intelligent conversation.


The value of the IR is questionable, at the minimum. It is eminently arguable as well, so far as I can see. I see it as immensely good and wonderful. An astounding achievement of the human mind and will. Finally we were able to escape the Malthusian trap.

The alternative is the elimination and starvation of the vast, vast bulk of humanity, and then the bare subsistence poverty of the few remaining, in perpetuity, forever. No, it is not at all arguable, in my opinion. I will leave the arguing against the Industrial Revolution to the insane.


Do words to the effect of "I would like to see..." appear anywhere in that post? Yes. You wrote "I say knock [humanity] back to the hunter-gatherer stage and start over." That would seem to be a recommendation. I am glad to see you now say: "Do I want to return to hunter-gather mode? Not 100% sure, but probably not." That seems a far more reasonable, less insane, position.


I hope you realize that the IR became possible only... I am happy to hear your explanation of how and why the Industrial Revolution came to occur. My own historical interpretation may differ, but that probably doesn't matter.


Yes yes... sure. Now, how are we to do it in a world that is rapidly falling into a new Dark Age where the high priest forbids any path leading to sensible empowerment of the individual? I offered two suggestions: entrepreneurship and humor.

Forming libertarian communities would be one more. Would you be interested in moving to a small township or county if 2,000 other liberty-lovers were also moving there, osan?

[loveshiscountry]

I bet there is a third party that sells similar software. Wish I thought of it first.

[Anti Federalist]

The Mushroom Cloud Expands

http://ericpetersautos.com/2015/09/25/the-mushroom-cloud-expands/

by eric • September 25, 2015

Well, there’s good and bad news wafting upward from the immolation of Volkswagen over its now-public end-running of the EPA’s preposterously over-strict emissions rigmarole.

First, the good news:

* The affected vehicles actually run better than they would have, had VW not “recalibrated” the software that runs the computer that controls the operation of the engines in these vehicles.

They get higher mileage – and give better performance.

The last time something like this happened – that I know about – was back in 1973, when GM’s Pontiac division (RIP) tried to slip the high-performance SD-455 V8 (destined for the Trans-Am) under the EPA’s radar by including this de-tuned race engine within the already-approved “family” of ordinary 455 V8s, even though the SD shared almost no parts (in particular, its high-performance camshaft) with ordinary, run-of-the-mill 455s. EPA found out – and Pontiac got “busted.”

But back then, people cheered Pontiac.

And boo’d the EPA.

You will probably be able to score a sweet deal on a new diesel-powered VW. As the mushroom cloud expands, the fallout will rain on VW dealerships all across the country. Cars that commanded full MSRP – plus some – just a week ago will be discounted heavily in the very near future, if this disaster is not contained.

Keep in mind, the vehicles are in no way “bad” vehicles (unlike, say, the epically awful GM diesels of the early 1980s) but the negative publicity will create that impression and the cars stand a very good chance of becoming pariahs. Which will benefit people smart enough to see past the know-nothing hysterics and pick one up at a fire sale price.

The “scandal” may expose the lunacy of current federal regulations – which have gone from reasonable to ridiculous.

The media is not explaining to people that the emissions in question amount to fractions of a percent of the total exhaust volume; nor that these cars meet very strict (just not insane) European standards. Perhaps people will begin to comprehend that a fractional difference in emissions output is not that big a deal – especially when the “affected” vehicle actually uses less fuel – which (think about it) means it produces a lesser volume of total exhaust gasses.

Perhaps people will ask why it is that American buyers are denied access to 60 MPG diesel cars that are commonly available in western Europe, where the air seems to be quite breathable and people are not walking around wearing surgical masks or hooked up to oxygen tanks…

Now, for the bad.

If you already own a VW, its value – like the value of the VW itself – just took a nosedive. Cars that just a week ago held their value better than most are now losing value like a rusted-out ’01 Aztek with 149,000 miles on the clock. People who financed a VW could find themselves owing more on the car than the car is worth – before they’ve paid the thing off. And people looking to buy a used VW can expect to pay higher interest on their loans, as interest rates are based on retail values.VW execs

But the really bad news is that VW – the company – now faces the possibility of what could prove to be one of the largest class-action lawsuits ever. Potentially, every person who owns a VW – whether it’s a diesel or not – could claim they’ve been defrauded (see above in re resale/depreciation) and seek compensation. We’re talking millions of people – and possibly, billions of dollars. On top of what the government is going to do VW.

Worst case, VW goes out of business. This could happen. (The Explorer/Firestone tire fiasco of the ’90s almost killed Ford – and that fiasco was of much lesser magnitude than this one.) Millions of people could lose their jobs. Not just directly (those employed in VW plants and dealerships) but also indirectly (suppliers and so on) whose business will go away if VW does.

If you own an “affected” vehicle, the government is probably – almost certainly – going to insist that you bring it in for “fixing.” It will be returned to you “fixed,” all right. It will use more fuel – and not perform as well – once recalibrated to pass muster with Uncle.

And if you resist (which is futile), the government will probably resort to nastiness such as denying you renewal of your vehicle registration, rendering the vehicle effectively useless to you.

This nastiness is likely to expand beyond VWs, too.

In a way, it already has.

Word inside the business is that Mazda – which had promised a new line of “Sky-D” diesel engines for models like the CX-5 crossover and the Mazda3 sedan – has decided to forget it because of the near-impossibility of complying with Uncle’s edicts while also managing to deliver the mileage and performance customers expect.

Mazda will sell the Sky-D engine outside the U.S., where policies are less insane.

But that’s of no particular help to us.

Also, expect “smog checks” to become more onerous – as EPA stomps around and demands “stricter” enforcement mechanisms.

The words of Rahm Emmanuel spring to mind:

Never let a good crisis go to waste.

[klamath]

The Mushroom Cloud Expands

http://ericpetersautos.com/2015/09/25/the-mushroom-cloud-expands/

by eric • September 25, 2015

Well, there’s good and bad news wafting upward from the immolation of Volkswagen over its now-public end-running of the EPA’s preposterously over-strict emissions rigmarole.

First, the good news:

* The affected vehicles actually run better than they would have, had VW not “recalibrated” the software that runs the computer that controls the operation of the engines in these vehicles.

They get higher mileage – and give better performance.

The last time something like this happened – that I know about – was back in 1973, when GM’s Pontiac division (RIP) tried to slip the high-performance SD-455 V8 (destined for the Trans-Am) under the EPA’s radar by including this de-tuned race engine within the already-approved “family” of ordinary 455 V8s, even though the SD shared almost no parts (in particular, its high-performance camshaft) with ordinary, run-of-the-mill 455s. EPA found out – and Pontiac got “busted.”

But back then, people cheered Pontiac.

And boo’d the EPA.

You will probably be able to score a sweet deal on a new diesel-powered VW. As the mushroom cloud expands, the fallout will rain on VW dealerships all across the country. Cars that commanded full MSRP – plus some – just a week ago will be discounted heavily in the very near future, if this disaster is not contained.

Keep in mind, the vehicles are in no way “bad” vehicles (unlike, say, the epically awful GM diesels of the early 1980s) but the negative publicity will create that impression and the cars stand a very good chance of becoming pariahs. Which will benefit people smart enough to see past the know-nothing hysterics and pick one up at a fire sale price.

The “scandal” may expose the lunacy of current federal regulations – which have gone from reasonable to ridiculous.

The media is not explaining to people that the emissions in question amount to fractions of a percent of the total exhaust volume; nor that these cars meet very strict (just not insane) European standards. Perhaps people will begin to comprehend that a fractional difference in emissions output is not that big a deal – especially when the “affected” vehicle actually uses less fuel – which (think about it) means it produces a lesser volume of total exhaust gasses.

Perhaps people will ask why it is that American buyers are denied access to 60 MPG diesel cars that are commonly available in western Europe, where the air seems to be quite breathable and people are not walking around wearing surgical masks or hooked up to oxygen tanks…

Now, for the bad.

If you already own a VW, its value – like the value of the VW itself – just took a nosedive. Cars that just a week ago held their value better than most are now losing value like a rusted-out ’01 Aztek with 149,000 miles on the clock. People who financed a VW could find themselves owing more on the car than the car is worth – before they’ve paid the thing off. And people looking to buy a used VW can expect to pay higher interest on their loans, as interest rates are based on retail values.VW execs

But the really bad news is that VW – the company – now faces the possibility of what could prove to be one of the largest class-action lawsuits ever. Potentially, every person who owns a VW – whether it’s a diesel or not – could claim they’ve been defrauded (see above in re resale/depreciation) and seek compensation. We’re talking millions of people – and possibly, billions of dollars. On top of what the government is going to do VW.

Worst case, VW goes out of business. This could happen. (The Explorer/Firestone tire fiasco of the ’90s almost killed Ford – and that fiasco was of much lesser magnitude than this one.) Millions of people could lose their jobs. Not just directly (those employed in VW plants and dealerships) but also indirectly (suppliers and so on) whose business will go away if VW does.

If you own an “affected” vehicle, the government is probably – almost certainly – going to insist that you bring it in for “fixing.” It will be returned to you “fixed,” all right. It will use more fuel – and not perform as well – once recalibrated to pass muster with Uncle.

And if you resist (which is futile), the government will probably resort to nastiness such as denying you renewal of your vehicle registration, rendering the vehicle effectively useless to you.

This nastiness is likely to expand beyond VWs, too.

In a way, it already has.

Word inside the business is that Mazda – which had promised a new line of “Sky-D” diesel engines for models like the CX-5 crossover and the Mazda3 sedan – has decided to forget it because of the near-impossibility of complying with Uncle’s edicts while also managing to deliver the mileage and performance customers expect.

Mazda will sell the Sky-D engine outside the U.S., where policies are less insane.

But that’s of no particular help to us.

Also, expect “smog checks” to become more onerous – as EPA stomps around and demands “stricter” enforcement mechanisms.

The words of Rahm Emmanuel spring to mind:

Never let a good crisis go to waste. About the resale value of those TDI diesels. I bought a jetta sportswagon new and put about 20,000 on it. About a year later I traded it in and got 500 more than I paid for it new. You could smell or see nothing from the tailpipe. Sad day that the consumers have forever lost the option of having those cars.

[Anti Federalist]

About the resale value of those TDI diesels. I bought a jetta sportswagon new and put about 20,000 on it. About a year later I traded it in and got 500 more than I paid for it new. You could smell or see nothing from the tailpipe. Sad day that the consumers have forever lost the option of having those cars.

All done at the hands of unelected and unaccountable regulators, that when they are not busy destroying millions of people's property and wealth, keep themselves occupied by dumping millions of gallons of toxic sludge into one of the prettiest rivers in Colorado and hold themselves blameless.

This is called freedom.

[klamath]

All done at the hands of unelected and unaccountable regulators, that when they are not busy destroying millions of people's property and wealth, keep themselves occupied by dumping millions of gallons of toxic sludge into one of the prettiest rivers in Colorado and hold themselves blameless.

This is called freedom.I hear you. I was just at that river in june and it WAS a beautiful river. As someone posted they were warned publically before they did it, on exactly what would happen. Any kid making model rivers and dams with a garden hose could have told them what would happen.

[Occam's Banana]

All done at the hands of unelected and unaccountable regulators, that when they are not busy destroying millions of people's property and wealth, keep themselves occupied by dumping millions of gallons of toxic sludge into one of the prettiest rivers in Colorado and hold themselves blameless.

This is called freedom.

http://i.imgur.com/OzRJRrr.png

[jclay2]

My liberal coworkers are convinced that this is WORSE than the BP spill because it was done on purpose. The facepalm is strong with this one. :(

[limequat]

My liberal coworkers are convinced that this is WORSE than the BP spill because it was done on purpose. The facepalm is strong with this one. :(

Ask them a two part question:

1) What ill effects are caused by NOx emissions?
2) Why aren't we currently experiencing them if there were thousands of cars operating at 40x the limit?

[Kade]

Yeah, in the manner that a peck on the cheek from your secretary is "cheating" on your wife.

We're not talking hookers and blow cheating, making cars that are deliberately and definably dangerous lets say.

Western jurisprudence always had as one its guiding principle: the punishment fits the crime.

In these days of asset forfeiture, "three strikes", mandatory minimums and drug warriors, that has gone out the window.

Thus you have the possibility for 18 BILLION in fines for regulatory "work arounds".

Hi Kade, by the way.

Hi. =)

How about I concede that the DMCA deserves serious blame, and we take it as 'prevention' of free market controls.

[Kade]

The Jews who escaped concentration camps cheated, too.

Godwin much? Also, this misses the point so badly, I don't know where to start... really I don't.

[acptulsa]

Godwin much? Also, this misses the point so badly, I don't know where to start... really I don't.

Does it really?

And while we're burning more fuel to get around (and releasing more carbon too) because diesel fuel has sulphur in it and diesels have more compression to oxidize nitrogen with, and we're afraid of dumping acid rain on our heads, where are we getting this greater quantity of petroleum? And how many brown heads are we dropping bombs on to get it?

The problem with coming here of all places to trumpet the Great Progressive Morality is that in the really really real world everything is a tradeoff. And we're actually smart enough to know what those tradeoffs are. Do you really not see that using less petroleum can be an act of anti-Establishment protest in the service of peace? After all, if we could only cut all our petroleum usage, what would ExxonMobil use to bribe the Congress into declaring war?

And please don't argue that there are no VW TDI owners who think along those exact lines, because there most certainly are.

[Occam's Banana]

Does it really?

And while we're burning more fuel to get around (and releasing more carbon too) because diesel fuel has sulphur in it and diesels have more compression to oxidize nitrogen with, and we're afraid of dumping acid rain on our heads, where are we getting this greater quantity of petroleum? And how many brown heads are we dropping bombs on to get it?

The problem with coming here of all places to trumpet the Great Progressive Morality is that in the really really real world everything is a tradeoff. And we're actually smart enough to know what those tradeoffs are. Do you really not see that using less petroleum can be an act of anti-Establishment protest in the service of peace? After all, if we could only cut all our petroleum usage, what would ExxonMobil use to bribe the Congress into declaring war?

And please don't argue that there are no VW TDI owners who think along those exact lines, because there most certainly are.

Cheater.

Reported.

[Kade]

It's also why only Volkswagen even attempted to sell a diesel-powered vehicle in that (or any passenger car) class on these shores. Which admittedly makes them the ones who sell the loudest, most foul-smelling new passenger cars. And might make them the ones who sell the passenger cars most likely to put out actual deadly toxins. And certainly makes these cars the ones most likely to cause acid rain under any circumstances, since sodium is an element found in diesel oil and almost nonexistent in gasoline.

It also makes Volkswagen the company doing the most to curb carbon dioxide emissions (not a deadly toxin, or in any way limited by the EPA auto emissions regulations). And the company doing the most to help us cut our dependence on foreign oil that we keep dropping emissions-unregulated bombs on the middle east in order to obtain. All of this pertains directly to diesel engines. And if you'll notice, no one is accusing Volkswagen of cheating in this way with the engine management systems of their gasoline-powered products.

Now. Is this situation sparking any intelligent conversation on these matters? Do the powers that be have any intention of discussing these matters in any kind of a rational way? Will the media ever stop talking about Kareashians and Donald Trump's combover long enough to address this? And if not, then would not any liberal consider this a ripe moment for civil disobedience? And since VW did this only with their diesels and not their gas-powered products, would not this count as civil disobedience?

I agree with you. It is a ripe moment in many facets, unfortunately, this specific incident hits home way too hard... my 'day job' if you will is heavily focused on this sort of thing, and as a member of the EFF, we see it as an opportunity to showcase the problems with copyright law. Something we should all be able to agree with...

[Anti Federalist]

Hi. =)

How about I concede that the DMCA deserves serious blame, and we take it as 'prevention' of free market controls.

I can shake on that.

[dannno]

Godwin much? Also, this misses the point so badly, I don't know where to start... really I don't.

You should start with the fact that it is actually right on point.

I think the people who perpetuate Godwin's law as an argument to win debates are fascist. It's one way I have to spot them.

People who are "rule of law" types should take their argument to its logical conclusion, which is that if the state makes it illegal to slaughter a group of people then it is ok because it is legal. Kidnap and cage people for growing a plant? It's ok, it's legal. That is the entire basis for the "rule of law". The "rule of law" is complete bullshit.

[Kade]

You should start with the fact that it is actually right on point.

I think the people who perpetuate Godwin's law as an argument to win debates are fascist. It's one way I have to spot them.

People who are "rule of law" types should take their argument to its logical conclusion, which is that if the state makes it illegal to slaughter a group of people then it is ok because it is legal. Kidnap and cage people for growing a plant? It's ok, it's legal. That is the entire basis for the "rule of law". The "rule of law" is complete bullshit.

Oh come now. There is a threshold of societal contract with governance. Some cultures and societies can handle more tyranny than others, some have no choice, ultimately, sic temper tyrannis. I know we have a wide and massive disagreements, but I have always said that our differences are skimming. Many 'liberty' advocates support THRESHOLD reform that would require my ... 'engagement', such as theocratic rule or total anarchist markets, I support certain things that I'm sure some of you think cross the line, like public education and some social entitlements.

This is where compromise really matters, right? You honestly can't believe I would stand by at a mutual threshold... say, a genocide?

Carbon emissions regulations is not the holocaust, and it isn't a fair comparison.

[Lucille]

Oh bruddah.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-09-28/found-volkswagen-portland

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user3303/imageroot/2015/09-overflow/20150928_vw_0.jpg

[Anti Federalist]

http://bhtooefr.org/images/NOxEmissionsComparison.png

[Anti Federalist]

Something to keep in mind:

New EPA regulations on economy and emissions will not be able to be met by anybody.

Tier 3 EPA regulations.

http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/documents/tier3/420f14009.pdf

Here are the new EU regulations:

Standards regulating NOx and other exhaust emissions from passenger cars in the EU have become more stringent over time: The permissible limit for emissions of nitrogen oxides (NOx) from diesel cars declined from 500 milligrams per kilometer (mg/km) under Euro 3 (effective January 2000) to 80 mg/km under Euro 6 (effective September 2014).

[timosman]

This was hardly news to anyone for a while. Wonder why almost a year wait ?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjUr3RQRERM

[Anti Federalist]

It took a while to gather enough data.

The automakers are allowed to test for compliance themselves, thus all the work arounds.

The fact of the matter is that soon, if not already, arbitrary emissions limits will become non-achievable.

Meaning one of two things:

1 - You will no longer be allowed to buy a new a car.

2 - The cost of a new car will be so costly, most people will not be able to afford it.


This was hardly news to anyone for a while. Wonder why almost a year wait ?

[phill4paul]

It took a while to gather enough data.

The automakers are allowed to test for compliance themselves, thus all the work arounds.

The fact of the matter is that soon, if not already, arbitrary emissions limits will become non-achievable.

Meaning one of two things:

1 - You will no longer be allowed to buy a new a car.

2 - The cost of a new car will be so costly, most people will not be able to afford it.

Cash for clunkers round two. Get them old non-computer brained animals off the road. Bring in the new computer automatons full bore. Sure people won't be able to afford one out right, but deals can be made. ;)

[RonPaulIsGreat]

That's so hot, makes me frisky. These businesses think they are big shit, then one bureaucrat shows them who is in charge. Love it. No one can do destruction like government. Man, I wish I had a government job must be awesome, drunk with power and get paid good for it. Capitalist pigs must suffer. Always making products and inventing stuff, they think they are so important.

[Anti Federalist]

Cash for clunkers round two. Get them old non-computer brained animals off the road. Bring in the new computer automatons full bore. Sure people won't be able to afford one out right, but deals can be made. ;)

And real time monitoring.

[limequat]

Speaking of cash for clunkers...

Cash For Clunkers Spent $20.7 Million To Sell You Dirty VW Diesels
http://jalopnik.com/cash-for-clunkers-spent-20-7-million-to-sell-you-dirty-1733032396

So Government paid consumers cash to crush serviceable cars and buy other cars that government now says cannot be sold. WTF.

[limequat]

Two thoughts:

NOx is really a diesel problem. This will be the end of diesels sold in the US (except the ginormous HD rigs in pickup trucks).
NOx is actually good for plants. It is fertilizer. Well, unless it forms Nitric acid. Then it burns 'em to the roots.

[Anti Federalist]

And real time monitoring.

Called it:


It’s Not Just VW’s Problem Now

by eric • October 1, 2015

http://ericpetersautos.com/2015/10/01/its-not-just-vws-problem-now/

It’s not just VW’s problem now.

The company may go the way of the Dodo because of brutal fines and crippling lawsuits and media demagoguery that’s turning the VW brand into the automotive equivalent of NAMBLA.

But if you think it’ll stop there…

So, where will it stop?

How about real-time monitoring of the emissions output of all cars, all the time? This would certainly put the kibosh on “cheating” – by owners as well as car manufacturers.

And it’s already in the works.

Has been, for some time. This VW debacle will simply provide the necessary justification for implementing it – much in the same way that a school shooting becomes the justification for taking everyone’s guns away.

It’s called OnBoard Diagnostics III (OBD III). The successor to OBD II – which your car already has, if it’s newer than circa the ’96 model year.

OBDII cars all have a universal plug-in “diagnostic” port – like an iPod’s USB hook-up – that’s used to connect the car (its computer controller, actually) to an external computer. The two electronic brains talk to one another, exchanging information. If your car has an issue with its emissions systems, a code (or codes) that have been stored in the onboard computer’s memory will be flashed over to the external computer, so that a technician can be made aware of the problem and – ideally – repair what’s wrong.

But, the OBD II system has a weakness. It can only transfer the information about a “fault” with the emissions system if it is physically hooked up to a testing computer (as at a repair shop or a smog check station). The most an OBD II-equipped car can do if you don’t take it in is illuminate the yellow “check engine” light in the dashboard. Which of course, you are free to ignore for as long as you like. Or at least, until the time comes to have the car smog checked – which might be only once a year or once every several years, depending on where you live. In some areas, those few that don’t (yet) have mandatory smog checks, a person could drive with the “check engine” light on indefinitely.

Enter OBD III.

When it detects a problem with your car’s emissions controls, rather than light the “check engine” light and wait patiently for you to take the car in for service, it will immediately narc you out to the DMV (or similar apparat) which will send you notice almost as immediately informing you that you’re required to take the car in to a state-approved monitoring/repair facility within “x” days and if you don’t, either fines will be rained upon your head or your vehicle’s registration will be benched.

It is even conceivable – because it is technically possible – for them to simply turn your car off remotely after the fix-it date comes and goes. The car becomes inert until you have it towed to an approved facility for repairs.

OBD III was pie-in-in-the-sky until technologies such as OnStar (and its equivalents), in-car GPS and mobile WiFi (internet access) became feasible and (lately) as commonplace as power windows and air conditioning. Your car – if it’s less than about five years old – already communicates with the external world, or has the capability to do so.

“Real time” traffic updates, satellite radio, the ability to check e-mail (and send it); roadside emergency and concierge assistance. They all rely on technology that lets the car send and receive information wirelessly and on the move. The same technology could just as easily send the DMV a message that your catalytic converter isn’t working – or has been removed. Or that you have reflashed the computer to illegally alter the engine’s performance, a la VW.

And that’s where things are headed.

It will be argued – by the EPA and similar bodies, such as the California Air resources Board – that “cheating” is prolific and once-annually (or whatever) checks are no longer sufficient to catch “cheaters.” They will point out that just as it was easy for a major automaker like VW to “cheat” the tests, it’s just as easy – under the current “outdated” system – for an individual owner to do so. It’s actually easier to reprogram an ECU (that’s the technical name for the computer that controls your car’s engine) than it was back in the day to install a catalytic converter “test pipe” (that is, a hollow tube) that you ran for 364 days a year and then – for the one day out of the year you had to comply with the test – reinstall the actual converter.

With OBD II and ECUs, all it takes is a hand-held plug-in to jigger your car’s computer to your heart’s delight and without even getting your hands dirty.

Anyhow, this will be the case made for OBD III – which (like the “Patriot” Act) has been in the works for a long time, just waiting for the right crisis.

Which VW has furnished.

Or rather, which a rat within VW furnished to the EPA – which probably would otherwise never have known. Because the “emissions” of the “affected” vehicles are infinitesimal, tweaked or not.

Note that the actual quantity of “bad gasses” (in this case, oxides of nitrogen and possibly also particulates, or soot) is never quantified or put into context by the media witch hunters, nor the EPA (or CARB). The impression they both seek to convey is of an Exxon Valdez-esque spewing of noxious compounds into the air. Which is demagoguery even worse than the shrieks about “assault rifles” (which are used almost never to murder people, excepting in a military – that is, government – context).

Yes, the “affected” VWs emit more oxides of nitrogen emissions (and possibly particulates) than the federal standard dictates. But the federal standard calls for effectively zero emissions. We are talking fractions of a percent differences. Car A’s tailpipe exhaust is 98.7 percent “clean.” Car B’s is 98.4 percent “clean.” They are both very “clean.” But car B is portrayed – misleadingly – as “dirty,” a “polluter”… because its output is .4 rather than .7.

This is what we’re dealing with.

And what EPA refuses to acknowledge – and the lazy (or politically motivated) media refuses to discuss.

But which will become the pretext for Orwellian, 24-7 monitoring of our vehicles.

Anyone who questions it or takes issue with it will be smeared as a “polluter” – or a “denier.”

In other words – never overtly spoken, just an association implied – a person who questions that sanity of destroying a major automaker and imposing Stalinist controls on the populace over fractions of a percent’s difference in tailpipe exhaust emissions is morally in the same camp as a Holocaust denier.

These people are very, very good.

Also not discussed is that if a given emissions control (or programming) results in lower fuel economy the vehicle’s overall output of whatever noxious gas might be (and often actually is) higher than an otherwise identical car’s that’s been programmed in such a way that it goes farther on a gallon of gas (despite its tailpipe exhaust emissions being fractionally higher).

While EPA is turning the screws on the car industry to achieve fractional reductions in the tailpipe emissions of cars that have been 95 percent or more “clean” since the mid-1990s, no one seems interested in an easy – and cheap – way to cut emissions not by fractions of a percent but by actual whole percentages.

And then some.

If the fuel efficiency of a given car is increased by say 30 percent, its total output of harmful emissions will decline dramatically – without any changes to its existing package of emissions controls. Burn less fuel, produce less exhaust. Simple.

Sane.

If EPA were really interested in reducing emissions – rather than dishonest political grandstanding – it would lock horns with the DOT and NHTSA to ease off on the “safety” mandates that have added hundreds of pounds to curb weight of the average new car, and reduced fuel efficiency dramatically as a result.

But that would mean less control for EPA – and DOT/NHTSA.

Which is why we’ll get OBD III instead of lighter, more fuel-efficient cars that produce dramatically lower emissions.

[Acala]

Meaning one of two things:

1 - You will no longer be allowed to buy a new a car.

2 - The cost of a new car will be so costly, most people will not be able to afford it.

Please be realistic. You really think government is going to outlaw cars in the USA? Ain't gonna happen in your lifetime and I'll put money on it.

[Anti Federalist]

Please be realistic. You really think government is going to outlaw cars in the USA? Ain't gonna happen in your lifetime and I'll put money on it.

That sounds exactly like what I heard when I told people that smoking would be effectively banned in 30 years, even in your own home or car, when it started as asking for smoking or non smoking.

Or what I heard twenty years ago when I told people that early, "mild" seat belt laws would lead to arrests and compliance checkpoints.

Where is your imagination?

Government and tree huggers have, for years now, been working in conjunction to get people out of cars, or at least, autonomous, internal combustion engined cars.

Take a look at EPA's Tier 3 (BIN2) regulations coming down in the next twenty years. They effectively call for zero emissions.

There is a reason that the new F150 has an aluminum body, and it's not because the market demanded it.

Automotive engineers are turning to increasingly arcane and exotic construction methods and engines to try and achieve compliance with the new regs.

An internal combustion car will soon be a rich hobbyist's pursuit only.

This is the future for the rest of us Mundanes:

http://s3.amazonaws.com/theoatmeal-img/blog/google_self_driving_car/road_ready_small.jpg

A safe and sane max speed of 25 mph, max range of 50 miles, electric, self driving and self reporting people pods, all under the watchful eye of 24/7 surveillance.

[Acala]

That sounds exactly like what I heard when I told people that smoking would be effectively banned in 30 years, even in your own home or car, when it started as asking for smoking or non smoking.

Or what I heard twenty years ago when I told people that early, "mild" seat belt laws would lead to arrests and compliance checkpoints.

Where is your imagination?

Government and tree huggers have, for years now, been working in conjunction to get people out of cars, or at least, autonomous, internal combustion engined cars.

Take a look at EPA's Tier 3 (BIN2) regulations coming down in the next twenty years. They effectively call for zero emissions.

There is a reason that the new F150 has an aluminum body, and it's not because the market demanded it.

Automotive engineers are turning to increasingly arcane and exotic construction methods and engines to try and achieve compliance with the new regs.

An internal combustion car will soon be a rich hobbyist's pursuit only.

This is the future for the rest of us Mundanes:

http://s3.amazonaws.com/theoatmeal-img/blog/google_self_driving_car/road_ready_small.jpg

A safe and sane max speed of 25 mph, max range of 50 miles, electric, self driving and self reporting people pods, all under the watchful eye of 24/7 surveillance.

Cars will not be outlawed for several reasons:
1. Too deeply imbeded in the culture and infrastructure of the nation;
2. Cars INCREASE government surveillance and warrantless search powers;
3. The auto industry is very profitable for the Banks.

Now I agree that cars will get ever-more expensive, requiring longer-term loans. But cars will not be illegal nor will they become a hobby for the elite.

[Anti Federalist]

Cars will not be outlawed for several reasons:
1. Too deeply imbeded in the culture and infrastructure of the nation;
2. Cars INCREASE government surveillance and warrantless search powers;
3. The auto industry is very profitable for the Banks.

Now I agree that cars will get ever-more expensive, requiring longer-term loans. But cars will not be illegal nor will they become a hobby for the elite.

The level of government control, regulation and influence in our lives would be unthinkable to somebody that has not been slow boiled in it for the past forty years.

Bet a shot of bourbon.

If we're both still here in 25 years, I'll be back to collect.

[Lucille]

http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/cb092915dAPR20150928074530.jpg

[timosman]

An internal combustion car will soon be a rich hobbyist's pursuit only.

This is the future for the rest of us Mundanes:

http://s3.amazonaws.com/theoatmeal-img/blog/google_self_driving_car/road_ready_small.jpg

A safe and sane max speed of 25 mph, max range of 50 miles, electric, self driving and self reporting people pods, all under the watchful eye of 24/7 surveillance.

The future is already here - http://www.boston.com/cars/news-and-reviews/2015/10/03/fiat-holds-its-own-competitors/mS6YfXXujFuqhXVMlRiglL/story.html


Pope Francis’s use of a Fiat 500L on his recent visit to the United States could have been the ultimate example of product placement.

Except that it wasn’t a Fiat PR arrangement; instead, it was the real thing.

http://www.fiatusa.com/assets/images/2015/vehicles/500/overview/500-overview-hero-1600x480.jpg

[Anti Federalist]

Bastards!

50 mpg and and 0-60 in 8 seconds!

How dare they?!!


http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/cb092915dAPR20150928074530.jpg

[osan]

Cars will not be outlawed for several reasons:

He did not say that cars would be outlawed. What he said:




An internal combustion car will soon be a rich hobbyist's pursuit only.



Phag-wagons and gaymobiles don't count.

Ooops... looks like I anti-PC'd. Quickly, someone report me so I can pay my debt to society by lethal injection.


1. Too deeply imbeded in the culture and infrastructure of the nation;

That is irrelevant in Theire eyes. If Theye wanted us out of cars, they could have us out in short order. Recall and never again allow yourself to forget that Theye do not care the least whit about what we want, how we feel, and so forth, save to the degree that we might come to our senses and cause Themme real loss. Theye know that is vanishingly likely, and therefore we get that to which we daily bear witness. That is not to suggest that Theye could not push us too far, but only that it is unlikely it would ever happen.


3. The auto industry is very profitable for the Banks.


New profit centers, like cheap whores, are a dime a dozen. One can barely take a step and not trip over one... when you're a bank, that is.

[presence]

http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/cb092915dAPR20150928074530.jpg



I feel so violated.

[Lucille]

Volkswagen Of America CEO Grilled In Congress Over Emissions Scandal - Live Webcast
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-10-08/volkswagen-america-ceo-grilled-congress-over-emissions-scandal-live-webcast


What may be the worst month in Volkswagen's corporate history is about to get a cherry on top, when the CEO of Volkswagen of America CEO Michael Horn is set undergo the Kangaroo Court treatment, when he testifies before a House Energy and Commerce subcommittee investigating last month's admission the company had installed on-board computer software designed to cheat on government emissions tests in nearly 500,000 of its four-cylinder "clean diesel" cars starting with the 2009 model year.

According to ABC, an advance copy of Horn's prepared remarks provided to the committee Wednesday revealed VW's plans to withdraw applications seeking U.S. emissions certifications for its 2016 model Jettas, Golfs, Passats and Beetles with diesel engines. That raised questions about whether a so-called "defeat device" similar to that in earlier models is also in the new cars.


By withdrawing the applications for the 2016 models, VW is leaving thousands of diesel vehicles stranded at ports nationwide, giving dealers no new diesel-powered vehicles to sell. It wasn't immediately clear when VW would refile its application, but Horn's testimony said the company is working with regulators to get certification.

In other words, the massive "channel stuffing" car parking lots previously observed in the vicinity of major US ports are about to get even bigger.

More on today's hearing:


Thursday's appearance will be the first on Capitol Hill by Horn, a 51-year-old German and veteran VW manager who took the reins of the brand's American subsidiary last year. He is expected to face blistering questions about when top executives at the company first learned of the scheme.

Horn will tell Congress he only learned about the cheating software "over the past several weeks," VW spokeswoman Jeannine Ginivan told The Associated Press Wednesday. He will also echo prior statements by the company's global chief executive apologizing for the cheating.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=zOl_dtrfi7g

[donnay]

Germany's FBI raid Volkswagen's HQ and seize computers and data files relating to who ordered emissions cheating software to be installed

By Allan Hall In Berlin for MailOnline
Published: 10:00 EST, 8 October 2015

The VW car giant's HQ in Germany was raided on Thursday in a move that drastically raises the stakes in the ongoing emissions scandal.

Officials swarming into the vast Wolfsburg plant is being interpreted as a sign that the company has been less than cooperative with authorities over the fraud which may end up breaking it.

As well as Wolfsburg German media reported that other VW sites were raided in the afternoon. The searches were confirmed by the public prosecutor's office in Braunschweig.

The raids were carried out by prosecutors supported by police and officials of the LKA - Germany's equivalent of America's FBI.

Files and computer data were seized, understood to be in connection with just who ordered the fitting of emissions-cheating software to millions of vehicles sold around the world.

Whether and to what extent this software actually attacks in an unauthorized manner, is currently still subject to internal and external audits', VW announced on Thursday before the news of the raids.

Daily newspaper Bild pointed out that the sprawling Wolfsburg plant has been designated by the VW board as the place where most repairs to affected vehicles in Germany will be repaired.

The affair has already cost VW CEO Martin Winterkorn his job and there is clamouring in America for other top executives to be handed over.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3265110/Germany-s-FBI-raid-Volkswagen-s-HQ-seize-computers-data-files-relating-ordered-emissions-cheating-software-installed.html

[Anti Federalist]

No More Affordable Diesels

by eric • October 8, 2015

http://ericpetersautos.com/2015/10/08/no-more-affordable-diesels/

VW was the only major automaker selling affordable diesel powered passenger vehicles in the United States. You could, for instance, buy a diesel-powered Jetta sedan, Golf or Beetle for about $22k.

Not anymore.

At least, not for awhile.

VW announced yesterday that it will withdraw emissions certification applications tendered to the EPA for all 2016 model year diesel-powered VW passenger car models.

This means they will not be legal for sale in the U.S.

Which means they will not be sold.

Which means, if you want an affordable diesel-powered car, you had better hurry to your local (or not-so-local) VW dealer and buy a 2015 Jetta, Golf or Beetle TDI before the remaining inventory runs out.

After that, you’ll be out of luck.

With the diesel VWs out of the game, there is only one diesel-powered car remaining that costs less than $30,000. That would be the diesel-powered version of Chevy’s Cruze sedan, a kinda-sorta rival of the Jetta TDI’s. Kinda-sorta, because it’s about the same size. But it’s much more expensive. Base price: $25,660 vs. $21,640 for the VW.

A difference – a price jump – of about $4,000.

Now, the Chevy’s a nice car. But its price tag – the price difference – does a number on the economic argument for the diesel engine under its hood. You will have to drive many miles before the savings at the pump make up for what you paid up front. And that, as they say, is the rub.

VW’s “sin” was to sell affordable diesels.

When people ponder purchasing a diesel-powered car, they weigh the diesel’s mileage vs. that of an otherwise similar gas-engined car and base their decision about which to buy on whether the diesel’s higher price “up front” would be amortized over time by the diesel engine’s superior fuel efficiency. If it is, then the diesel makes economic sense.

If it’s not, then not.

The Cruze doesn’t make economic sense – even though it gets very good mileage (27 city/46 highway). Buy it because it’s well-equipped (it is; Chevy only sells the Cruze diesel in one “loaded” trim) or because you enjoy the right-now torque output of the turbo-diesel engine.

But if you’re buying it to save money, you’re math skills are lacking.

And it is the only remaining diesel-powered car on the market that’s priced under $30,000.

Next up after the Cruze is the Audi A3 diesel. It’s an Audi, so an entry-luxury model. Base price, $32,600. It makes even less economic sense than the Cruze diesel. After that, you’re definitely swimming in the deep end of the pool with models like the diesel-powered version of the BMW 3 Series sedan (the $39,000 to start 328d) and the Mercedes-Benz E250 BlueTec ($54,300).

Some inside baseball:

Mazda had planned to bring an affordable diesel to market. The 2014 Mazda3 sedan (and the 2015 CX5) were supposed to have been available with Mazda’s new “Sky-D” diesel engine. And they are.

Just not here.

Mazda was unable to figure out a way to make them compliant with federal rigmarole and both efficient enough and priced low enough to make them plausibly competitive in the U.S. market. To meet the federal requirements, efficiency would suffer – and the cost would go up. While people might pay $32k for an Audi diesel (or $54k for a Benz diesel) a $26k (or more) Mazda diesel is a much harder sell.

Ditto the Honda i-DTEC diesel. Available in the UK and Western European countries. But not here.

Ask Chevy how many diesel-powered Cruzes they sell.

The answer, Alex, is not many.

Because they cost too much. And because it’s a Chevy.

Meanwhile, in Europe, there are diesel-powered versions of practically every passenger car, from the humblest economy car all the way up to the highest-end cars (and SUVs, too).

In Europe, diesels are not for-the-rich-only.

Here, they are.

Because of an out-of-control EPA and federal regulatory apparat that has imposed unreasonable – economically impossible to deal with – emissions rigmarole on diesel engines. If you have any doubt about this, ask yourself whether it’s an emissions-free-for-all in Western European countries like Germany and France. Do you believe their governments allow soot-spewing stinkpots on the road?

The problem is not that the diesels are “dirty.” It is that the EPA is out-of-control. This anti-democratic bureaucracy, subject to no vote, accountable to no American citizen, simply decrees standards that must be complied with irrespective of cost – or benefit.

And that is the nut of the problem here.

The people never had a say in this. No one ever empowered EPA to decide that a less-than-1-percent reduction in the overall output of oxides of nitrogen is worth whatever it costs to achieve compliance. EPA does not have to consider the economic impact of its fatwas. It simply issues fatwas – and leaves it up to the targeted industry to comply.

Regardless of cost.

The American people get no say. They simply get to pay. The best they can do is “call their representative” – which is like calling a “customer service” line in Mumbai to complain about a defective toaster.

Even Congress can do very little to rein in the EPA.

Because Congress has abdicated its legal obligation under the Constitution to pass laws. It has given to the EPA (and other federal “agencies”) de facto authority to legislate. What else is it, after all, when the EPA can issue a regulatory fatwa that has the force of law, that must be complied with?

This mess could be dealt with, if Congress would grow a pair. It need not even abolish the EPA (which would be like trying to abolish Kudzu in the South).

However, it could actually pass a law to the effect that any diesel-powered passenger car that meets European emissions standards is automatically legal for sale in all 50 U.S. states.

Remember: European diesel emissions standards are not lax. They are in fact very strict. But they are different than EPA’s loony standards. And it is the cost of complying with both the European and the U.S. standards that is keeping clean, high-efficiency diesels (some of which deliver 60 MPG or more) out of the U.S. market.

There is no legitimate reason for that.

EPA is run by maniacs, that’s all.

It’s time to chain them to a wall in a nicely padded room.

[phill4paul]

Politics. Pure and simple. Someone didn't pay someone.

Just remember, every tax dollar you give pays an EPA officials wages.

[Anti Federalist]

Kicking Ourselves in the Nuts

http://ericpetersautos.com/2015/10/30/kicking-ourselves-in-the-nuts/

by eric • October 30, 2015

VW just announced it has lost nearly four billion dollars ($3.84 billion, to be precise about it) so far as a result of the “cheating” debacle. This does not include the punitive government fines or the likely class-action civil litigation that’s coming as surely as the winter.

This is a measure of the cost of government to you. Or do you operate under the delusion that something called “VW” will foot the bill?

Volkswagen is a corporation and so a “body” of sorts (a corpus) but it is not a living thing that needs a job.

VW provides jobs.

Well, did.

How many actual bodies – people – will lose their jobs as a result of all this? If VW goes keel up, turrets plummeting toward the bed (the rest of the hulk following suit once the bulkheads burst) you can bet it will be many. Not just at the corporate level. There is manufacturing and retail, the dealers that sell the cars. The suppliers. Etc.

It is very serious.

The total costs – the bleeding – could end up as high as 78 billion euros. In American, that is a really big number.

Nazi war criminals were not hounded this viciously.

And VW hasn’t actually harmed anyone.

There are, of course, the usual hysterical and utterly exaggerated claims about the “health effects” of microcosmic, fractional (literally) increases in the output of certain exhaust byproducts. These are similar to the nonsense about the “dangers” of second-hand smoke.

One doctored EPA “study” (lambasted by a federal judge, who openly accused EPA of cherry picking data and then distorting it like a fun house mirror to suit its preconceived agenda) was sufficient to fuel a jihad that continues to this day.

The same is likely to happen to VW – to diesel vehicles generally.

They will be portrayed as “dirty,” notwithstanding that they aren’t. People with asthma and so on will be found who can cough on cue in the courtroom, their maladies laid at the feet of diesel-powered VWs.

The prospect of this will drive other diesels headlong for the hills. Mazda is just one that appears to have decided it may not be such a good idea to offer the diesel engine it had planned to offer in several models (CX-5 and Mazda3). And even those brands that already sell diesels – and which have not been accused of anything (yet) may also decide it’s smart policy to get out of the game.

Some of you may remember the last time this happened.

It was the late ’70s. GM brought out a diesel engine that – as it turned out – was not quite ready for prime time. Unlike the situation today, that diesel did have problems. It soured a generation of American buyers. It took decades for diesel engines to make a comeback.

How long will it take this time?

VW – which had been the number one car brand in terms of total sales volume – is now not. One reason why is slumping sales but another – potentially far more lethal – is depreciation. How much – and how quickly – a given car loses value.

VWs – not just diesel-powered models – are losing value, fast. The industry publication F&I (finance and interest) notes that since Sept. 18, the Jetta and Passat TDI (diesel) sedans have depreciated by 7.9 percent (see here for more) while the TDI-powered Beetle slipped 6.5 percent. This is metastatic cancer for a car company. Those who currently own an “affected” car just got dunned hundreds, even thousands of dollars. The car that was worth say $25,000 on September 1 (before the “cheating” scandal broke) is now worth about $2,000 less, solely because of depreciation driven by a media feeding frenzy.burning cash

This sort of thing matters to people who are thinking about buying a given car.

It also matters to those considering a lease.

Rates depend on residual value, which is a function of depreciation. A car with an expected high depreciation rate will cost more to lease because it’ll be worth less at the end of the lease.

What most people don’t seem to get is that the burning shit bag left on VW’s door step is going to get shit on all our shoes. Whether you happen to own a VW or not.

There will be fewer diesel-powered cars generally as other manufacturers simply opt out. The handful that remain will cost more – and go less far on a gallon of fuel (in order to comply with the pound-foolish emissions rigmarole, which would rather the car pollute fractionally less at the tailpipe even if it produces a greater total volume of exhaust byproduct by dint of burning more fuel overall). They will thus be less appealing to buyers – who will buy fewer of them. Resulting in a market incentive to offer fewer of them for sale. Cue circling the drain.

We kick ourselves in the balls, you see.

VW may end up going out business. Or just being crippled. But when all is said and done, it’s us who’ll pay the bill, one way or another.

[Anti Federalist]

That red, ass kicking machine, is government.

http://33.media.tumblr.com/ec9d1c15d491c6aec799f8848f51f172/tumblr_muzqw7nO4d1qa68j2o1_500.gif

[ChristianAnarchist]

If only I were in the market for an economy car... I'd be looking ONLY at used VW diesels...

[Anti Federalist]

If only I were in the market for an economy car... I'd be looking ONLY at used VW diesels...

Now's the time to buy, if you're in the market.

Get 'em before they are gone, or get ten tons of nonsense and horse piss sprayers hung on them.

[squarepusher]

Now's the time to buy, if you're in the market.

Get 'em before they are gone, or get ten tons of nonsense and horse piss sprayers hung on them.

I wouldn't buy one, since they are going to force new software on it that will make it run like shitt!

[Anti Federalist]

I wouldn't buy one, since they are going to force new software on it that will make it run like shitt!

It's not available yet, that's why I said NOW.

[Anti Federalist]

EPA is run by maniacs, that’s all.

It’s time to chain them to a wall in a nicely padded room.

Where I will give Trump an A.

[osan]

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by osanhttp://www.ronpaulforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?p=6000301#post6000301)Who was stupid, and before what, exactly?



Humans were more stupid, before now. Go back to 20,000 BC and try to have an intelligent conversation.You appear to be conflating ignorance with stupidity. As for 20K BC, for one thing we don't know what people were like then as far as I can tell. For another, one cannot judge the people then by today's standards. Mr. Apples, meet Mr. Oranges.


The value of the IR is questionable, at the minimum. It is eminently arguable as well, so far as I can see.

I see it as immensely good and wonderful. An astounding achievement of the human mind and will. Finally we were able to escape the Malthusian trap.

The alternative is the elimination and starvation of the vast, vast bulk of humanity, and then the bare subsistence poverty of the few remaining, in perpetuity, forever. No, it is not at all arguable, in my opinion. I will leave the arguing against the Industrial Revolution to the insane.
Yes you can see it that way. It is equally valid to see it from the perspective of costs, which have been very high. Possibly too high, from certain standpoints.

As for your apparent assessment of the results of the so-called "Malthusian Trap", others may see it differently. Certainly you are entitled to your opinion on the matter, but so are others. I can swing either way on the issue, depending on the broader context in which it is being considered. Ideally, I would like to see everyone happy, healthy, manifesting good intelligence, smarts, and attitudes befitting Freemen. Meanwhile, on planet earth, we witness ignorance and the will to stupidity on a global scale such that it becomes something of a wonder as to how the world of men does not fly apart from one second to the next.





Do words to the effect of "I would like to see..." appear anywhere in that post?


Yes. You wrote I say knock [humanity] back to the hunter-gatherer stage and start over." That would seem to be a recommendation. I am glad to see you now say: "Do I want to return to hunter-gather mode? Not 100% sure, but probably not." That seems a far more reasonable, less insane, position.


Point taken.






Yes yes... sure. Now, how are we to do it in a world that is rapidly falling into a new Dark Age where the high priest forbids any path leading to sensible empowerment of the individual?


I offered two suggestions: entrepreneurship and humor.

Forming libertarian communities would be one more. Would you be interested in moving to a small township or county if 2,000 other liberty-lovers were also moving there, osan?

Neither will succeed in the current context.

So long as the greater mass of people retain the inferior attitudes of Weakmen, entrepreneurship will not likely set us to rights. Might may not make right, but it makes positive reality most of the time. As long as the Meaner embraces the conditions that leave him stuck with the status of Weakman and Merecog, there is vanishingly small chance that the world will edge any closer to freedom. The Tyrant doesn't even have to bring out his gunmen in this case because the Weakmen do his work for him in that they comply of their free will. The rest, those of the insufficient minority who would be at least closer to freedom, are controlled with overt threats and the occasional snuffing. They mostly want it, only not enough to risk death and dismemberment to have it. The subset that do is so small as to be worthy of little mention, even if Theye keep their eyes on them just to be safe.

Humor... a nice thing, but not much of a weapon against Themme in a world that wants what Theye dish out.

Forming libertarian communities... how do you figure to pull that off in a world where Theye forbid the crossing of certain boundaries.

Imagine Libertaria is established with 1 million people. That's pretty large. Now imagine there is a murder. Do you believe for even a New York minute that the community would be left to its devices to investigate and, ideally, adjudicate and administer the resultant justice? Not on your fucking life. It would NEVER HAPPEN. Why? Because even Theye cannot afford the consequences of the message such a thing would send to the entire world, which broadcasts that we really don't need Themme and that we can actually get away with muscling them out. That would be the end for a subpopulation hell bent on controlling the rest - on RULING. That shit would be squashed in an instant in one way or another, one of those being through cooption. A fart by any other name...

Your ideas hold merit only in a world that wants the result they promise and the will to stand tall in the face of men who would have you cut down in an instant in order to preserve their position.

We need to be painfully real when discussing such matters. Theye become more entrenched with every minute.