N.Y. Gov. Cuomo Enacts $15 Hourly Fast Food Minimum Wage

[BarryDonegan]

http://truthinmedia.com/cuomo-15-fast-food-minimum-wage/

Rather than putting the question to a vote by the New York State Legislature, N.Y. Governor Andrew Cuomo enacted a $15 per hour minimum wage for fast food workers in the state by first creating and appointing an unelected Fast Food Wage Board which recommended the policy for approval by New York State Commissioner of Labor Mario Musolino, who then issued a wage order imposing the mandate on fast food businesses.

[euphemia]

It won't help. Given the high rents in the NYC area, it won't begin to provide a living for families, which is why I assume the governor signed the order. Median rents in the Bronx, the cheapest of the five boroughs is around $1500 a month, and that's for a tiny hole in the wall.

[dannno]

I'm glad they are doing it there first so everybody can see what a disaster it is.

[jllundqu]

http://i.imgur.com/6R1egQu.jpg

[phill4paul]

Erecting multitudes of offices and sending hither and thither un-elected offices to eat out our substance. Regulation without representation. I'm sure that everyone except fast food business are ecstatic about it though.

[euphemia]

It's really pathetic to see what passes for an apartment in NYC. $1500 a month would buy a very nice home here. It would more than pay for a nice apartment here.

[GunnyFreedom]

NY State is different from NY City. If this were just in the city it would have almost no impact at all, on account of the already extreme cost of living there. Either the food prices would double but nobody would notice except tourists, or they would transition to ordering kiosks like Sheetz laying off half of their employees and the food prices remain roughly the same. Out in the rest of the State however it'll be hit and miss considering the cost of living fluctuations in New York. I don't support price controls because they inevitably backfire, but I have to sympathize with some poor schlep trying to live in NYC on a $9 30hr McJob. I don't know how they would do it without working 3 jobs, or selling pirated DVD's out of their trunk.

[euphemia]

I hear you, Gunny. That's why people need to give careful consideration about how they want to live and put the pieces in place to make that happen. Nobody should be working at McDonald's indefinitely. It's not meant to be a living wage for anyone. It's supposed to help a teenager have date money.

[phill4paul]

I hear you, Gunny. That's why people need to give careful consideration about how they want to live and put the pieces in place to make that happen. Nobody should be working at McDonald's indefinitely. It's not meant to be a living wage for anyone. It's supposed to help a teenager have date money.

That's what it was for me when I was 16. Didn't take long to move on to the next better paying job. About six-months.

[brandon]

Confused about if this applies to the state or just the city. The article seems to imply both at different times. I imagine it's just the city, right?

[GunnyFreedom]

Confused about if this applies to the state or just the city. The article seems to imply both at different times. I imagine it's just the city, right?

If it's just the city, then it will have the same effect on the economy as a couple drops of dye has on the pacific ocean. Don't misunderstand me, I'm certainly not recommending this, I'm just saying the cost of living is already so high in the city that only the tourists will notice that the cost of a McBurger doubles.

[DevilsAdvocate]

Stupid is as stupid does as my momma always said

[Anti Federalist]

Erecting multitudes of offices and sending hither and thither un-elected offices to eat out our substance. Regulation without representation. I'm sure that everyone except fast food business are ecstatic about it though.

Exactly.

Amazing that, even here, the argument is over the economics of $15 an hour wages, and NOT the fact that this was decreed by King Cuomo to be "the Law".

[69360]

If this is the whole state, a lot of people in upstate new york with skilled but low paying jobs are are about to say f it quit their jobs and go flip burgers at mcdonalds.

[tod evans]

Does this mean from now on you'll have your order taken by a clean and reasonably presentable english speaking polite employee?

Clean floors and bathrooms?

[Lucille]

http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user3303/imageroot/2015/05-overflow/20150524_mcd_0.jpg

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-05-24/mcdonalds-responds-minimum-wage-protests

[Anti Federalist]

Confused about if this applies to the state or just the city. The article seems to imply both at different times. I imagine it's just the city, right?


If this is the whole state, a lot of people in upstate new york with skilled but low paying jobs are are about to say f it quit their jobs and go flip burgers at mcdonalds.

According to the article, the "Wage Board" wrote the rule and NYC fast food joints must comply by 2018 and the rest of the state by 2012.

But it seems that it still must go through some sort of legislative process:

Flanked by Vice President Joe Biden, New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo on Thursday proposed that the state adopt what would be the nation’s highest minimum wage—$15 an hour—embracing a cause dear to liberal Democrats and setting him up for a fierce fight with the state legislature.

“If you work full time, you shouldn’t have to live in poverty—plain and simple,” Mr. Cuomo said at a rally in Manhattan. “The truth is, it’s wrong to have an economy where the rich get richer while the poor get poorer, where the American dream of mobility and opportunity has become more of a cruel myth.”

The Democratic governor’s effort to boost the wages of the working poor is likely to face intense opposition in the legislature, where the Republican-led senate opposes raising the minimum wage and has resisted previous efforts to boost it more modestly.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/new-york-gov-cuomo-backs-15-an-hour-minimum-wage-with-biden-at-side-1441918076

[kpitcher]

“The truth is, it’s wrong to have an economy where the rich get richer while the poor get poorer, where the American dream of mobility and opportunity has become more of a cruel myth.”

I thought the American dream included either working hard to elevate yourself to a good job, getting a good education for a good job / trade, lucking out on being in the right place or right time, or being a good athlete.

[morfeeis]

As i always say when i see stuff like this, Bring it on, why stop at $15 raise it to $20 an hour. i mean everyone should be able to make 41k a year with no education at all. the faster they can screw up the economy the faster reason and logic can step back in after they crash this ship, put your money in real assets, vote for the party that promises the most "free" stuff and sit back and watch the shit show.

The only thing that is going to stop the virus of stupid that is running through this country is hunger pains.

[Jan2017]

I'm glad they are doing it there first so everybody can see what a disaster it is.
And the Ten dollar BigMac and Whopper soon follow . . . with a real beef burger up to $15.

[euphemia]

And in the meantime, professional servers who work for some of the best chefs in the world, make $2.64 per hour (or something like that) and have to split tips with the host, runner, bartender, etc.

Don't try to get a reservation, though, because that place is booked until June.

[erowe1]

So does NY have a legal definition of "fast food"?

[TheTexan]

They certainly worked hard for that pay raise. I say, congratulations

[paleocon1]

It won't help. Given the high rents in the NYC area, it won't begin to provide a living for families, which is why I assume the governor signed the order. Median rents in the Bronx, the cheapest of the five boroughs is around $1500 a month, and that's for a tiny hole in the wall.

A quick net search says differently. Around $800/month or less is quite doable.

[erowe1]

A quick net search says differently. Around $800/month or less is quite doable.

In New York City? You sure about that?

Although the problem is, the governor enacted a statewide policy that also covers areas where the cost of living is a fraction of what it is in NYC.

[Ronin Truth]

Yet one more very good reason to not buy any fast food in New York.

[nobody's_hero]

http://i.imgur.com/6R1egQu.jpg

I was just about to post relative pay for EMTs in NY.

It's actually about $18/hr but still,why go to school and take on that debt when you can make $15/hr with a kindergarten diploma? This will send ripples throughout the economy and everyone's pay will have to adjust upward.

And then a few years from now the burger flipper will be pissed that he only makes $15/hr. Rinse repeat.

[parocks]

I read about this when it first happened or first was proposed a month or so ago.

Whoever thinks this is going have a massive effect on prices of food in NYC is not paying attention to how things like rent factor into prices as well.

Upstate NY might be a different story, but that's not until 2022, and it's hard to predict how much the national minimum wage will go up in that time.

You know that the minimum wage always goes up, right?

[parocks]

Yet one more very good reason to not buy any fast food in New York.

Explain that in greater detail.

You shouldn't buy terrible food in NY, but you should buy it somewhere else, because, why again, explain this?

Do you actually think that fast food is expensive now, or will be expensive when this takes effect? Is raising the minimum wage from one number set by the number set by the government to another, larger number set by the government, more government in any way?

[erowe1]

Is raising the minimum wage from one number set by the number set by the government to another, larger number set by the government, more government in any way?

Yes. It's more government intervention. It affects more people and it affects them in greater degrees.

If, in an unregulated market there would be 100,000 people working for below $7.25/hr. and 1,000,000 people working for below $15/hr., then having a minimum wage of $7.25/hr. bans 100,000 jobs, and having a minimum wage of $15/hr. bans 1,000,000 jobs.

[Ronin Truth]

Any guesstimates numbers of fast food worker migrations into New York?

"If you want to understand, what's REALLY going on, just follow the money!"

[erowe1]

Any guesstimates numbers of fast food worker migrations into New York?

"If you want to understand, what's REALLY going on, just follow the money!"

Not into. Out of.

[erowe1]

On the other hand, any restaurants that don't meet whatever the legal criteria of "fast food" are, will benefit from this, since it hurts their fast-food competitors and not them. I expect that all the restaurants that are counted as "fast food" are now desperate for changes they can make that will allow them to say they aren't, so that they can get around this.

[Ronin Truth]

Not into. Out of.

Yeah, let's all move out to NJ and PA where we can each make half the NY currently legally mandated minimum hourly wage. :rolleyes:

[PRB]

It won't help. Given the high rents in the NYC area, it won't begin to provide a living for families, which is why I assume the governor signed the order. Median rents in the Bronx, the cheapest of the five boroughs is around $1500 a month, and that's for a tiny hole in the wall.

nobody is forcing them to live there.

[PRB]

I hear you, Gunny. That's why people need to give careful consideration about how they want to live and put the pieces in place to make that happen. Nobody should be working at McDonald's indefinitely. It's not meant to be a living wage for anyone. It's supposed to help a teenager have date money.

nobody is forcing them to work, they can work if they want money, move somewhere else, just dont ask taxpayers to help pay your rent and child care. I might agree it's not "intended" to be a living wage, but nor is any other job, people are free to take the job they want or quit.

[erowe1]

Yeah, let's all move out to NJ and PA where we can each make half the NY currently legally mandated minimum hourly wage. :rolleyes:

Half is better than nothing, which is what they'll make staying in NY.

[silverhandorder]

Yeah, let's all move out to NJ and PA where we can each make half the NY currently legally mandated minimum hourly wage. :rolleyes:

I don't think people in NY will be able to take advantage of the minimum wage.

NYC already has high wages. The jobs that pay under 15 can be eliminated and usually done by kids.

Upstate there are ways to make you work for that money. For example business like factories will just eliminate under 15$ jobs and spread responsibilities to the rest of the workers. They will hire more but not more than they were budgeted for. So still more work for workers and less jobs.

Mom and pop shops will just be paying their own kids. So no money out of pocket. Farms will just not hire their interns/apprentices.

NJ and PA are actually pretty good with work.

[Ronin Truth]

Half is better than nothing, which is what they'll make staying in NY.

For $30K per year full time, you can afford to commute to work fast food from neighboring states.

[erowe1]

For $30K per year full time, you can afford to commute to work fast food from neighboring states.

I don't think you get the affects minimum wage actually has.

If you could just give everyone a raise by passing a law requiring that they be paid more, and this would have no affects on the rate of employment, then all the neighboring states, and every other state for that matter, ought to just follow suit and pass laws requiring that everyone work for whatever arbitrarily high wage we want.

But that's not what happens. What these laws actually do is ban all the jobs that produce less value than the minimum wage. Any job that isn't worth that amount of pay just won't be allowed, and those people will not get raises, they'll be out of work.

[tod evans]

I don't think you get the affects minimum wage actually has.

If you could just give everyone a raise by passing a law requiring that they be paid more, and this would have no affects on the rate of employment, then all the neighboring states, and every other state for that matter, ought to just follow suit and pass laws requiring that everyone work for whatever arbitrarily high wage we want.

But that's not what happens. What these laws actually do is ban all the jobs that produce less value than the minimum wage. Any job that isn't worth that amount of pay just won't be allowed, and those people will not get raises, they'll be out of work.

Yup, doesn't matter if the employer can afford to pay more, it's all about whether or not it's worth it to the person writing the check.

Were it me standing under a mandate to pay $15.00hr for burger flippers I'd shut the doors and open elsewhere unless my bottom line also doubled...

[TheNewYorker]

McDoubles in NY used to be $1 each, now they jacked the price up last week to $1.89.

Used to be a quick, frugal albeit unhealthy way to feed kids and all their friends. 10 burgers for $10 was a steal. Or 50 for $50 when they had a lot of friends over.

I know I'm complaining over 89 cents but that's a huge increase in price %

[Ronin Truth]

I don't think you get the affects minimum wage actually has.

If you could just give everyone a raise by passing a law requiring that they be paid more, and this would have no affects on the rate of employment, then all the neighboring states, and every other state for that matter, ought to just follow suit and pass laws requiring that everyone work for whatever arbitrarily high wage we want.

But that's not what happens. What these laws actually do is ban all the jobs that produce less value than the minimum wage. Any job that isn't worth that amount of pay just won't be allowed, and those people will not get raises, they'll be out of work.

I "get it" just fine, and have for over 40 years now.

"Everyone" is not getting the raise. Just the fast food workers statewide. Will that market in the state be destroyed? Possibly.

"Everything government touches turns to crap." -- Ringo Starr

[erowe1]

"Everyone" is not getting the raise. Just the fast food workers statewide.

No. You still don't get it. The fast food workers statewide aren't getting raises. They're getting their jobs outlawed. Their pay will not get raised to $15/hr, but cut to $0/hr.

Meanwhile, the fast food restaurants in neighboring states will benefit from the loss experienced by NY's fast food restaurants, and their demand for employees will go up; most likely, so will their pay rates.

[parocks]

Yes. It's more government intervention. It affects more people and it affects them in greater degrees.

If, in an unregulated market there would be 100,000 people working for below $7.25/hr. and 1,000,000 people working for below $15/hr., then having a minimum wage of $7.25/hr. bans 100,000 jobs, and having a minimum wage of $15/hr. bans 1,000,000 jobs.

It's the same amount of government intervention.

We agree on the general idea that people will buy less of things that cost more.

[erowe1]

It's the same amount of government intervention.


I can't fathom what kind of twisted reasoning leads you to say this.

Is outlawing the sale of all milk the same amount of government intervention as outlawing the sale of only some milk?

[parocks]

On the other hand, any restaurants that don't meet whatever the legal criteria of "fast food" are, will benefit from this, since it hurts their fast-food competitors and not them. I expect that all the restaurants that are counted as "fast food" are now desperate for changes they can make that will allow them to say they aren't, so that they can get around this.

I believe that it's chains of 25 or more. But yup.

[erowe1]

I believe that it's chains of 25 or more. But yup.

So things like Ruby Tuesdays and Red Lobster would count as fast food?

[parocks]

Half is better than nothing, which is what they'll make staying in NY.

People will stop eating?

More money will be in the pockets of fast food workers in NY.

Upstate might have some problems depending on what the national minimum wage is in 2022. By 2022, the national minimum wage could be $15.

The minimum wage went from $.25 in 1938 to $3.35 in 1981 to $7.25 today. That's 10x in 43 years. 5x in 40 years is still a smaller rate of growth.

[parocks]

Yup, doesn't matter if the employer can afford to pay more, it's all about whether or not it's worth it to the person writing the check.

Were it me standing under a mandate to pay $15.00hr for burger flippers I'd shut the doors and open elsewhere unless my bottom line also doubled...

Labor costs are one of many costs. McDonalds is still going to keep the stores open, for the most part.

[parocks]

So things like Ruby Tuesdays and Red Lobster would count as fast food?

I don't know that. I just know that 25+ chains are part of it. Smaller chains, no. Don't know what exactly counts as fast food.

[parocks]

I can't fathom what kind of twisted reasoning leads you to say this.

Is outlawing the sale of all milk the same amount of government intervention as outlawing the sale of only some milk?

It's a law, it's a number. I'm talking in general about the minimum wage. The same amount of government intervention could have different effects as to the specifics.

$7.25 minimum wage or $15 minimum wage is the same amount of government intervention.

[parocks]

No. You still don't get it. The fast food workers statewide aren't getting raises. They're getting their jobs outlawed. Their pay will not get raised to $15/hr, but cut to $0/hr.

Meanwhile, the fast food restaurants in neighboring states will benefit from the loss experienced by NY's fast food restaurants, and their demand for employees will go up; most likely, so will their pay rates.

Their pay will be raised to $15/hr. In some cases, they'll lose their jobs.

But try to remember. Do we have minimum wages now? Are there no minimum wage jobs? Has the minimum wage been going up periodically for the last 70+ years?
Are there still jobs?

It will be interesting to see what happens on the ground. But neither one of us can guess with any certainly what will happen at the small town McDonalds in Elmira, NY in 2022. I'd assume that the prices would go up a little. Just like the prices of everything go up all the time, for many different reasons.

[erowe1]

Their pay will be raised to $15/hr. In some cases, they'll lose their jobs.

But try to remember. Do we have minimum wages now? Are there no minimum wage jobs? Has the minimum wage been going up periodically for the last 70+ years?
Are there still jobs?

It will be interesting to see what happens on the ground. But neither one of us can guess with any certainly what will happen at the small town McDonalds in Elmira, NY in 2022. I'd assume that the prices would go up a little. Just like the prices of everything go up all the time, for many different reasons.

Those whose pay will go up to $15/hr. would have been able to get that pay rate without this law. Those whose productivity does not warrant paying them this much will lose their jobs.

Prices for some things will go up. Prices for other things will go down. The net effect of this on all prices will be zero, since it will not change the money supply.

The most important effect will be that employment will be lower than it would be without the minimum wage increase.

Yes. There is a minimum wage now, it's lower than $15/hr. The higher it gets the greater its negative impact, the lower it gets the less its negative impact.

[erowe1]

It's a law, it's a number. I'm talking in general about the minimum wage. The same amount of government intervention could have different effects as to the specifics.

$7.25 minimum wage or $15 minimum wage is the same amount of government intervention.

No. A $15/hr. minimum wage is more government intervention than a $7.25/hr. minimum wage. The higher the minimum wage is, the greater the government intervention is.

Banning a million peoples' jobs is more government intervention than banning a thousand peoples' jobs.

[parocks]

No. A $15/hr. minimum wage is more government intervention than a $7.25/hr. minimum wage. The higher the minimum wage is, the greater the government intervention is.

Banning a million peoples' jobs is more government intervention than banning a thousand peoples' jobs.

No. Same intervention, different effect.

[erowe1]

No. Same intervention, different effect.

You just keep repeating this, but it's obviously not true. The reason the effect is different is because the intervention is different. You might as well say that all governments that have ever existed have intervened the same amount and only differed in their effects.

[parocks]

Those whose pay will go up to $15/hr. would have been able to get that pay rate without this law. Those whose productivity does not warrant paying them this much will lose their jobs.

Prices for some things will go up. Prices for other things will go down. The net effect of this on all prices will be zero, since it will not change the money supply.

The most important effect will be that employment will be lower than it would be without the minimum wage increase.

Yes. There is a minimum wage now, it's lower than $15/hr. The higher it gets the greater its negative impact, the lower it gets the less its negative impact.

We don't live in a free market and we (us, you and me) never have.

You can't use free market rules and apply them to oligopolies.

This - "Those whose pay will go up to $15/hr. would have been able to get that pay rate without this law." is wrong.

You have to know that it's wrong.

You have to know that McDonalds is still here. There have been many, many minimum wage hikes, and yet, McDonalds is still there.

McDonalds will pay the minimum wage, unless there's a shortage of labor. And there typically isn't. If you miss the first day of Econ 101 where they tell you that the rules that they're going to be using for the next 4 years haven't applied to the real world in at least 100 years, you'll end up saying things that you really should know aren't true.

What you're saying might be solid economics, but it isn't true today. These aren't the days of Adam Smith and John Marshall and free markets. McDonalds charges whatever it wants, not what it costs to make. In classical economics, the price of a good is the cost to make the good. And we all know that's not true in the real world of 2015, and it's never been true in our lifetimes. It might be true for wheat farmers, but it really isn't true for anyone else.

I'll agree that a hike in the minimum wage will tend to decrease employment. I don't agree that more money in the hands of the fast food workers is a negative impact.

We live in a fkd up world right now. What appears as total garbage is somehow modified in ways to make things worse. The government takes 1/3d of the money. That completely destroys any invisible hand that would be working. People don't have money to give to other people. Government took it. If everybody gets to keep their money, the invisible hand works, people pass the money around, and everything works out ok. When government takes so much, all the locals don't have the money to make that system work. So, the government steps in with minimum wage and welfare.

[parocks]

You just keep repeating this, but it's obviously not true. The reason the effect is different is because the intervention is different. You might as well say that all governments that have ever existed have intervened the same amount and only differed in their effects.

You keep on repeating what you keep repeating, too.

One law, different numbers.

New law on new topic, additional intervention.

Different words. Intervention vs effect or impact.

I'll grant effect and impact, but not intervention. It is not additional governmental intervention. Since 1938, the Fed Government has had a minimum wage.

What you want to do, wrongly, is argue that a raise in the minimum wage is additional government intervention, because of your ideology. It isn't additional government intervention. It's the same governmental intervention.

[erowe1]

You keep on repeating what you keep repeating, too.

One law, different numbers.

New law on new topic, additional intervention.

Different words. Intervention vs effect or impact.

I'll grant effect and impact, but not intervention. It is not additional governmental intervention. Since 1938, the Fed Government has had a minimum wage.

What you want to do, wrongly, is argue that a raise in the minimum wage is additional government intervention, because of your ideology. It isn't additional government intervention. It's the same governmental intervention.

Those different numbers are literally the different amounts of intervention. That is the whole point in their being different. Raising the minimum wage from $7.25/hr. to $15/hr. is increasing the amount of intervention just like raising it from $0/hr. to $7.25/hr. would.

Hiking tax rates increases government intervention.

Raising the drinking age increases government intervention.

All these numbers aren't just abstractions. They're measurements of real-world government intervention.

[erowe1]

We don't live in a free market and we (us, you and me) never have.

You can't use free market rules and apply them to oligopolies.

This - "Those whose pay will go up to $15/hr. would have been able to get that pay rate without this law." is wrong.

You have to know that it's wrong.

You have to know that McDonalds is still here. There have been many, many minimum wage hikes, and yet, McDonalds is still there.

McDonalds will pay the minimum wage, unless there's a shortage of labor. And there typically isn't. If you miss the first day of Econ 101 where they tell you that the rules that they're going to be using for the next 4 years haven't applied to the real world in at least 100 years, you'll end up saying things that you really should know aren't true.

What you're saying might be solid economics, but it isn't true today. These aren't the days of Adam Smith and John Marshall and free markets. McDonalds charges whatever it wants, not what it costs to make. In classical economics, the price of a good is the cost to make the good. And we all know that's not true in the real world of 2015, and it's never been true in our lifetimes. It might be true for wheat farmers, but it really isn't true for anyone else.

I'll agree that a hike in the minimum wage will tend to decrease employment. I don't agree that more money in the hands of the fast food workers is a negative impact.

We live in a fkd up world right now. What appears as total garbage is somehow modified in ways to make things worse. The government takes 1/3d of the money. That completely destroys any invisible hand that would be working. People don't have money to give to other people. Government took it. If everybody gets to keep their money, the invisible hand works, people pass the money around, and everything works out ok. When government takes so much, all the locals don't have the money to make that system work. So, the government steps in with minimum wage and welfare.

You misunderstand economic laws. Obviously, the whole point of my post was to describe what happens when the market is not free. The fact that the market isn't free doesn't mean these laws don't work. It means that we are seeing the effects of them constantly.

What I said about the person who is capable of commanding a wage of $15/hr. is true. If that is their productivity, then they can command up to that rate from their employer, lest they quit and their employer lose money because of that loss of productivity. Having a labor shortage makes this all the more true.

On the other hand, if someone's productivity is less than that, then raising the minimum wage only means that they are unemployable. The government will have banned their job by increasing the amount of its intervention in the marketplace by raising the MW.