National debt

[timosman]

What is the meaning of the national debt ? Is it the amount of money the government was able to extract from the economy ? Maybe the real goal of the government is to burn through the money as quickly as possible ? If this is the case we are doing pretty good.

[Zippyjuan]

Government spends more money than they take in in taxes and fees. The have to borrow money and pay it back in interest in the form of US Treasury notes. This year's deficit (money shortfall and thus needed borrowing to make up the difference) gets added to all the previous year's shortages and this totals the US debt. According to the debt clock, it is currently over $18 trillion. Just under $6.2 trillion is held by foreigners. http://www.treasury.gov/ticdata/Publish/mfh.txt The Federal Reserve bought a bunch of it as part of their "quantitative easing". They currently have $2.5 trillion.

The government itself besides the Fed holds a huge chunk. Some is in retirement plans for government workers. Some is held by the department of Social Security (IOU's for money they "borrowed" from their "trust fund"- excess monies from years when social security taxes brought in more money than it had to pay out that year. These groups have about 30% of US debt. http://useconomy.about.com/od/monetarypolicy/f/Who-Owns-US-National-Debt.htm


Social Security (Social Security Trust Fund and Federal Disability Insurance Trust Fund) - $2.783 trillion
Office of Personnel Management Retirement - $924 billion
Military Retirement Fund - $483 billion
Medicare (Federal Hospital Insurance Trust Fund, Federal Supplementary Medical Insurance Trust Fund) - $270 billion
All Other Retirement Funds - $117 billion
Cash on Hand to Fund Federal Government Operations - $463 billion.

The rest breaks down to:


Mutual Funds - $1.033 trillion
State and Local Government, including their pension funds - $818 billion
Private Pension Funds - $506 billion
Banks - $407 billion
Insurance Companies - $269 billion
U.S. Savings Bonds - $177 billion
Other (individuals, government-sponsored enterprises, brokers and dealers, bank personal trusts and estates, corporate and non-corporate businesses, and other investors) - $1.115 billion.

[timosman]

Government spends more money than they take in in taxes and fees. The have to borrow money and pay it back in interest in the form of US Treasury notes.

Paying back will never happen. We can at most service the debt, which is what the Main street is being used for. Can you disprove my thesis that the government's goal is to run up as much debt as possible as if somebody was keeping score ?

[Zippyjuan]

I can't say what their goal is. Actually their goal is to get re-elected. They promise stuff then don't worry about paying for it. We go "cool stuff!" and vote for them again.

[kfarnan]

In reality the only national debt is every cent created by the Fed w/ interest. Instead of being printed for the US, it is printed for foreign banks and the US borrows from them at principal and interest. Other countries buy that debt as loans w/interest. That makes it simpler to understand.

[Seraphim]

I can't say what their goal is. Actually their goal is to get re-elected. They promise stuff then don't worry about paying for it. We go "cool stuff!" and vote for them again.

Holy shit this might be Zippy's best ever post.

[Acala]

In reality the only national debt is every cent created by the Fed w/ interest. Instead of being printed for the US, it is printed for foreign banks and the US borrows from them at principal and interest. Other countries buy that debt as loans w/interest. That makes it simpler to understand.




I find this incomprehensible. The National Debt consists of outstanding written promises by the US government to pay specified amounts of dollars at specified times to the holders of those written promises. It does not include the vast unfunded obligations on various programs, pensions, etc. It does not include the likely bailouts of various favored industries and political subdivisions.

[heavenlyboy34]

I find this incomprehensible. The National Debt consists of outstanding written promises by the US government to pay specified amounts of dollars at specified times to the holders of those written promises. It does not include the vast unfunded obligations on various programs, pensions, etc. It does not include the likely bailouts of various favored industries and political subdivisions.

This^^ The welfare programs are usually called "off the books" or "off-budget" debts or some similar Newspeak term.

[Zippyjuan]

This^^ The welfare programs are usually called "off the books" or "off-budget" debts or some similar Newspeak term.

The budget for welfare programs like Medicare/Medicaid are budgeted to what they will cost the government to pay this year's benefits. They aren't "off budget". Future benefits are not budgeted for this year because those expenses are not paid out this year. Next year's benefits will be paid out of next year's taxes (and borrowing if the taxes are not enough). They don't need to be in this year's budget. Social Security is supposed to be "self funded" and is kept separate from the rest of the budget (though if they have extra revenues, those are "borrowed" to fund other programs in the main budget so it really isn't completely separate).

[kfarnan]

I find this incomprehensible. The National Debt consists of outstanding written promises by the US government to pay specified amounts of dollars at specified times to the holders of those written promises. It does not include the vast unfunded obligations on various programs, pensions, etc. It does not include the likely bailouts of various favored industries and political subdivisions.

Looking at the larger picture, the source of all debt. Who creates the promise notes (treasuries). The US gov. writes the IOU, then the federal reserve loans the fiat currency at interest. No one else can create debt from nothing.

[LibForestPaul]

Looking at the larger picture, the source of all debt. Who creates the promise notes (treasuries). The US gov. writes the IOU, then the federal reserve loans the fiat currency at interest. No one else can create debt from nothing.

Thats increasing M3 ...
and why the dollar constantly depreciates in value.

[Zippyjuan]

Looking at the larger picture, the source of all debt. Who creates the promise notes (treasuries). The US gov. writes the IOU, then the federal reserve loans the fiat currency at interest. No one else can create debt from nothing.

Yes, Treasury issues the debt (borrows the money). But they don't make the money (technically they do- they print all paper notes and stamp out all coins). They borrow from (sell Treasury notes to) people who have money.

The Federal Reserve does not buy all US debt- as part of "Quantitative Easing" they have been purchasing US debt (and yes, they did create the money to do that) but they only have about eleven percent of the US debt. As for that interest the Fed gets (as all other other purchasers of US debt get), they turn all money they earn (which includes that interest) after expenses back to the US Treasury. Last year, they gave about $98 billion to the Treasury- far more than the interest generated by the Treasuries they own. http://www.forbes.com/sites/samanthasharf/2015/01/09/fed-sending-98-7-billion-of-2014-profits-to-u-s-treasury/

[acptulsa]

I can't say what their goal is.

Can not, or may not because you'll be fired?

The bankers don't want us to balance the budget because having that massive debt over our heads encourages us to let them print FRNs until they're worthless. And they like making money the old fashioned way--by printing it.


Actually their goal is to get re-elected. They promise stuff then don't worry about paying for it. We go "cool stuff!" and vote for them again.

I thought you said you couldn't say. Or was that just you explaining why you don't say the real reason, and instead offer this excuse?

Well, there is truth in it.


'The budget is a mythical beanbag. Congress votes mythical beans into it, and then tries to reach in and pull real beans out.'--Will Rogers

But giving away free stuff isn't that big a selling point at election time--especially since most people can plainly see we don't get that much, and pay dearly for what little we do get. What wins reelections is television ads and positive coverage from bought and paid for media outlets. And bankers have never been slow to promote deficit spenders. Because nine out of ten of them like the bond market to be big and have a lot of bonds in it.

[kfarnan]

The only way to push the income tax scam was to create a debt to paydown. There was no need before the fed in 1913.
Why would they allow such idiocy. Seems the only reason was to enslave the populace.