PDA

View Full Version : Why you can not buy a $7000 car that gets 50 mpg




Anti Federalist
08-20-2015, 10:29 AM
Crippling Technology

by eric • August 19, 2015

http://ericpetersautos.com/2015/08/19/crippling-technology/

So much would be possible – if it weren’t for the government.

Government, remember, is not composed of experts in much of anything – except control and manipulation. Politicians and bureaucrats are not people who do things.

They force others to do things.

In the car world, you have the ridiculous spectacle of non-engineer mechanical imbeciles dictating functional parameters of engine design to people who actually do know how a four-stroke engine works, the meaning of stoichiometry; who understand that there is an inherent conflict between fuel economy and “safety.” That the more a car is designed to meet the first objective, the less it will meet the second.

And the reverse.

Result?

The engineers are told to deliver both in equal measure – and we end up with cars that are heavy and thirsty.

It’s a tragedy – a comic one, when you put it in context.

Here we are – almost 2016 – and the typical new car is about as economical to drive as the typical car of 1985. This is hard to believe, but you should believe it because it’s true. The typical car of the early-mid-1980s was averaging mid-high 20s – just like today. There were numerous models available that approached or even exceeded 40 MPG on the highway. A few (like the diesel-powered VW Rabbit) got into the 50s.

They did this without direct-injection or even port fuel-injection. Many still had carburetors. Eight and nine-speed transmissions (with the top three gears being overdrives) were unheard of. Most automatics of this era had four speeds. Some still had just three.

But the one thing the cars of that era did have was less weight – about 500-800 pounds less of it, on average, than comparable cars have today. And the sole and only reason for all this additional weight is the increased demand for “safety” eructing from the solons in Washington. Well, so we must presume. Because the people who actually buy the cars were never offered the free choice. It would be interesting to find out what they’d choose if they did have that choice.

We can make some rough calculations.

Let’s start with a pretty fuel-efficient (but ridiculously heavy) car like the current/2015 Honda Civic sedan. This compact (by current standards) weighs in at 2,811 pounds. A 1985 Civic sedan (see here) weighed 1,962 pounds – 849 pounds less than the current model.

It is not surprising that – notwithstanding a direct-injected engine with variable valve timing and an ultra-efficient continuously variable (CVT) automatic transmission – the ’15 Civic sedan only averages 33 MPG – vs. 27 MPG for its ancestor from 30 years ago.

A six MPG overall improvement.

Pathetic.

But absolutely understandable, given the almost 900 pounds additional metal the ’15 is carrying around. And it is carrying it in order to pass muster with Uncle’s “safety” mandates – which include a mandate that a car’s roof must be able to bear the entire weight of the car in the event the car rolls on its back. Of course, most cars live their entire lives – from dealer’s showroom to crusher, many years hence – without ever rolling on their back. Probably there are many people out there who would prefer to have been carting around 900 pounds less metal all those years – saving thousands of very real dollars in fuel costs rather than having to pay for some bureaucrat’s idea of what might be helpful if the car ever did roll on its back.

And it is thousands of dollars we’re talking about. If the ’15 Civic – with all its technological advantages – weighed what the ’85 Civic weighed, it is certain the car would be averaging 40-45 MPG. It would, after all be 30 percent lighter. And a 10 MPG or so uptick is probably a very conservative estimate.

Over a typical vehicle of life of 15 years or so, the savings would be no small change. Figure one less fill-up per month for the typical driver and assume a fill-up equals about 13 gallons at today’s $2.25 or so per gallon. That’s about $30 a month saved – or $360 a year in your pocket instead of ExxonMobil’s. Over fifteen years, the savings amounts to $5,400 – and that’s assuming the cost of gas stays the same.

Which, probably, it won’t. It’s likely to go up.

But even if it doesn’t, that’s still five grand you didn’t have to spend on gas.

Well, wouldn’t have to spend on gas – were it not for the fact that you’re denied this option. A bureaucrat in Washington (well, ok, several of them) have decided your “safety” – as defined by them – is more important than your right (past tense) to drive an economical car. The cost-benefit calculation has been taken out of your hands, as if you were still an eight-year-old and needed momma to make sure you don’t chew on lead paint chips.

Here, by the way, is a real-world example of the kind of car we could have – and which the Mexicans do have. It’s the Chevy Matiz – and it costs less than $7,000 U.S. and gets 45-50 MPG… . But it’s not “safe” – so you’re not allowed to buy it.

http://details-of-cars.com/wp-content/uploads/parser/Chevrolet-matiz-s-1.jpg

It’s even worse when it comes to diesels.

The federal flapdoodle imposed on them has made them barely more economical to operate than many of today’s gas engines – and a lot more expensive to buy, feed and maintain. Diesels used to simple and cheap. Now they are complicated and pricey – and their small advantage at the pump is very questionable, economically-speaking, vs. what you have to pay for them up front.

Again, Uncle.

With all the technology on tap, modern diesels would be able to deliver 60-plus MPG on average, in a car that weighed less than 2,000 pounds like our ’85 Civic example. You’d think – if your thoughts were logical – that government bureaucrats would be “all over” that. They are, after all, here to help…

Except they’re not.

Consciously or not, the desideratum of politicians and bureaucrats is control and direction. If this were not true, then force would not be necessary. They’d rely on reason and persuasion. Surely that would be sufficient. If the object of the exercise weren’t control and direction.

But of course, it is.

And that, friends, is why we have “high tech” cars that get maybe 6 MPG better than their ancestors did 30 years ago.

presence
08-20-2015, 10:32 AM
Why you can not buy a $7000 car that gets 50 mpg

YOU CAN !!!

http://www.foobert.com/carhunt.html


:D

Zippyjuan
08-20-2015, 12:00 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdGEaR3Fges

bunklocoempire
08-20-2015, 03:14 PM
I say "Hi" you say "lux" Sam sez no.

:mad:

TaftFan
08-20-2015, 03:34 PM
http://www.eliomotors.com/

$6,800, 84 MPG

puppetmaster
08-20-2015, 03:43 PM
http://www.eliomotors.com/

$6,800, 84 MPG not a car.

TheTexan
08-20-2015, 04:16 PM
increased demand for “safety” eructing from the solons in Washington. Well, so we must presume. Because the people who actually buy the cars were never offered the free choice. It would be interesting to find out what they’d choose if they did have that choice.

Uh, safety. Duh. Mystery solved.

acptulsa
08-20-2015, 04:27 PM
Two vehicles, one quiz:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d1/Dodge_Grand_Caravan_SE_--_12-26-2009.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b2/1975_Dodge_Coronet_Crestwood.jpg

Which is older? Which is roomier? Which has more seat belts? Which is easier to get in and out of? Which has larger crumple zones for safety? Which has a lower center of gravity, a better suspension, and if riding the same tires, better handling? Which is far less likely to roll over in an accident? Which is more than five hundred pounds lighter than the other?

If you did not answer all these questions the same way, you got some of them wrong.

If you put an equally modern drive line and equally modern tires on the old station wagon, it will not only handle better, it will use less fuel. If you try to reproduce them new and sell them in the U.S. market, you will be arrested.

This is what the progressives call 'progress'.

kpitcher
08-20-2015, 09:28 PM
I have a car story to tell.

My father visited the LaForce car company back in the 70s along with an automotive supply company. Using leaded gas engines this guy managed to get them to burn clean enough to run in a closed garage, get more mileage and even more horsepower. My father said a V6 drove like a V8 in the hills of Vermont. The engineers along tested and agreed that things were indeed as clean as LaForce claimed. LaForce said an after market kit could be installed at any auto shop and would cost about $150.

The auto supply company wasn't interested as the entire industry had just got on board with catalytic converters and they were busy making those. Also the EPA totally screwed LaForce over. An EPA tester was taped telling LaForce that the engine was clean but was told by his bosses to make it not pass. So the tester changed the testing equipment, and it still passed. So then they just lied about things.

LaForce said he left just enough out of his patents to make it patented but not fully working. He also had a car engine that could run, without water and a tiny motorcycle size air radiator and the exhaust manifold could be touched with a bare hand.

I wonder what ever happened to those cars and engines.


http://www.rexresearch.com/laforce/laforce.htm

Anti Federalist
08-20-2015, 09:39 PM
I wonder what ever happened to those cars and engines.

Government happened.

Back then, in the early years of the EPA, you could still tinker with your car.

Technically, now, if you were to do what LaForce did, you'd be committing a federal felony.

Jan2017
08-20-2015, 09:56 PM
Every single engineering school in the USA makes some prototype car/transportation - don't ya' see, why ?

TaftFan
08-20-2015, 10:27 PM
Considering how many wrecks there are and the drivers I interact with, given the choice I would go with the greater safety. Well worth the price.

acptulsa
08-20-2015, 10:33 PM
Considering how many wrecks there are and the drivers I interact with, given the choice I would go with the greater safety. Well worth the price.

I can drive. As far as I'm concerned, the lighter, lower, better handling car is safer because when I have one of those I don't survive accidents, I avoid them altogether.

The federal government thinks I have no right to make that choice, that I must instead drive a tank. What do you think? Do I have no right to prefer a nimble vehicle to a tank?

moostraks
08-21-2015, 11:16 AM
Two vehicles, one quiz:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d1/Dodge_Grand_Caravan_SE_--_12-26-2009.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b2/1975_Dodge_Coronet_Crestwood.jpg

Which is older? Which is roomier? Which has more seat belts? Which is easier to get in and out of? Which has larger crumple zones for safety? Which has a lower center of gravity, a better suspension, and if riding the same tires, better handling? Which is far less likely to roll over in an accident? Which is more than five hundred pounds lighter than the other?

If you did not answer all these questions the same way, you got some of them wrong.

If you put an equally modern drive line and equally modern tires on the old station wagon, it will not only handle better, it will use less fuel. If you try to reproduce them new and sell them in the U.S. market, you will be arrested.

This is what the progressives call 'progress'.

I LOVE station wagons, especially with the wood panels.:D I think it has to do with Doris Day movies that were the few bright spots of my childhood. I ended up rearing a few OES dogs, too!!! (That and went on to have a large family as well to fill said station wagon) *sigh*

libertariantexas
08-22-2015, 03:10 AM
not a car.

Yeah, the ELIO is a car.

I've actually seen one up close and personal. I sat in it. It's a freakin' car, even if the lame-brained bureaucrats in SOME states call it a "motorcycle" (which is completely fucking absurd). Normal CAR instrumentation. Stereo, AC, auto transmission, doors, roof, car seats, tons of space. It's a freakin' car, just a small (and highly efficient one). Sit in the cockpit of an ELIO, and you won't find it any different than any small, low priced econo car, except that it has MORE DRIVER SPACE THAN MOST.

It has everything a car would have. Full instrumentation, fully enclosed. Seating for 2. About all it doesn't have is that fourth wheel. You'd have to be a moron (or a government drone) to call it anything other than a car.

It ain't powerful. It ain't fancy. But it's for damned sure a car. And I'm a big boy, I can't fit comfortably in a lot of small "cars." You'd have to use a shoe horn to get me into some of them. But this thing has a ton of space for the driver. It's as comfortable to drive as my full sized pickup.

And yeah, if this thing ever goes into production, I'm ordering one on day one. Probably not great as a primary family vehicle given that it has limited passenger space (enough for a petite woman or a child, but that's about it). But perfect as a 2nd or 3rd car or commuter car.

Oh, and did I mention that it only costs about $7k?

http://www.eliomotors.com/

Anyone who sat in one and had a functioning brain would call it a car (note: this does not apply to government bureaucrats).

squarepusher
08-22-2015, 04:28 AM
I understand the safety issue, however if you are allowed to drive a motorcycle (which is about the most unsafe vehicle possible), then they should allow these regular auto's which are "not safe" assuming maybe the drivers passes a special course on safety.

acptulsa
08-22-2015, 05:20 AM
Texas, be glad the bureaucrats think it's a motorcycle. Otherwise they wouldn't let you have one.

Or, at least, they wouldn't let you have one unless and until it was reengineered to be at least fifty percent heavier and to have explosives in the dash and steering wheel.

I think you are on the leading edge of a trend. And I know we could devise a better three wheeler than that one. And sell a lot of them, if we were feeling entrepreneurial.

square, they're allegedly safer for their own drivers. How does that make them such a public liability that society needs to demand special training and licensing? If anything, the fact that the four wheelers are hundreds of pounds heavier, less nimble, and harder to stop makes them the more dangerous vehicles--to everyone else, especially those trying to get around town under their own power on foot or on a bicycle. So, why aren't they the ones who need special training and licensing?

Anti Federalist
08-22-2015, 07:55 AM
I understand the safety issue, however if you are allowed to drive a motorcycle (which is about the most unsafe vehicle possible), then they should allow these regular auto's which are "not safe" assuming maybe the drivers passes a special course on safety.

Wow, that was so thick with government permission-ism, I'm at a loss for words.

Anti Federalist
08-22-2015, 07:55 AM
I understand the safety issue, however if you are allowed to drive a motorcycle (which is about the most unsafe vehicle possible), then they should allow these regular auto's which are "not safe" assuming maybe the drivers passes a special course on safety.

Wow, that was so thick with government permission-ism, I'm at a loss for words.

Anti Federalist
08-22-2015, 08:06 AM
I LOVE station wagons, especially with the wood panels.:D I think it has to do with Doris Day movies that were the few bright spots of my childhood. I ended up rearing a few OES dogs, too!!! (That and went on to have a large family as well to fill said station wagon) *sigh*

So do I.

Thirty years ago, I was bombing around in one of these:

http://clubs.hemmings.com/northcascadevcca/images/morris_station_wagon_small.jpg

One of the few Government Motors cars I've ever owned.

I prefer the Fords however.

I keep threatening Mrs. AF with something like this as the new family truckster:

http://www.originalpaintcars.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/1971-Country-Squire.jpg

This one sold on EBay, for how much, I do not know.

PaulConventionWV
08-22-2015, 08:19 AM
Considering how many wrecks there are and the drivers I interact with, given the choice I would go with the greater safety. Well worth the price.

That's your choice. I would choose differently, but, well, I can't.

Anti Federalist
08-22-2015, 08:19 AM
Considering how many wrecks there are and the drivers I interact with, given the choice I would go with the greater safety. Well worth the price.

Key word: choice.

My situation is completely different, from what I am assuming yours is, as nobody in the family commutes daily, we live rural with little to no traffic, and do not interact with other drivers very much, which, no matter who it is behind the wheel, there is always a varying degree of contempt for. (Anybody that drives slower than "x" is an "idiot", and anybody driving faster is a "maniac")

Not only that, I have very little patience with the "zero incident" model of safety and it's added cost, complexity and "counter intuitive" nature, i.e.: exploding dirigibles in the steering wheel that can randomly take your head off.

So, I would make a choice very different from yours.

If I was allowed to.

But I am not, because in the land of the free, I am not permitted to make such a choice.

Which was the point of the OP.

PaulConventionWV
08-22-2015, 08:23 AM
Yeah, the ELIO is a car.

I've actually seen one up close and personal. I sat in it. It's a freakin' car, even if the lame-brained bureaucrats in SOME states call it a "motorcycle" (which is completely fucking absurd). Normal CAR instrumentation. Stereo, AC, auto transmission, doors, roof, car seats, tons of space. It's a freakin' car, just a small (and highly efficient one). Sit in the cockpit of an ELIO, and you won't find it any different than any small, low priced econo car, except that it has MORE DRIVER SPACE THAN MOST.

It has everything a car would have. Full instrumentation, fully enclosed. Seating for 2. About all it doesn't have is that fourth wheel. You'd have to be a moron (or a government drone) to call it anything other than a car.

It ain't powerful. It ain't fancy. But it's for damned sure a car. And I'm a big boy, I can't fit comfortably in a lot of small "cars." You'd have to use a shoe horn to get me into some of them. But this thing has a ton of space for the driver. It's as comfortable to drive as my full sized pickup.

And yeah, if this thing ever goes into production, I'm ordering one on day one. Probably not great as a primary family vehicle given that it has limited passenger space (enough for a petite woman or a child, but that's about it). But perfect as a 2nd or 3rd car or commuter car.

Oh, and did I mention that it only costs about $7k?

http://www.eliomotors.com/

Anyone who sat in one and had a functioning brain would call it a car (note: this does not apply to government bureaucrats).

Have you tried taking it around any 90 degree curves lately?

RonPaulIsGreat
08-22-2015, 08:35 AM
I think everyone should have the right to drive around in a death trap if they want to, that sounds sarcastic but I'm serious. However, I'd personally pay an extra 500 for a reinforcement around the occupant area. I actually was rear ended on the interstate, and the car was pushed off the interstate went air borne and either landed on its roof or rolled on it. The only part of the car that wasn't crushed was the drivers seat area, and they actually do reinforce that even more than the other areas, because that seat is occupied the most obviously. Everyone that saw the car, from the cops, to the salvage yard, said they can't believe I walked out of that alive. I actually crawled out myself, and even walked home from the hospital a few hours later.

Anyway, point being, I'm not hyper paranoid about safety, but air bags, and extra strong passenger compartments get no complaints from me.

acptulsa
08-22-2015, 08:37 AM
Have you tried taking it around any 90 degree curves lately?

It'll do a damned sight better job of it than a four wheel drive Tahoe.

It isn't just the square footage between the wheels. It's also about the center of gravity. It isn't just about the fedgov making 'motorcycles' attractive by making good cars illegal, it's about the fedgov making good cars illegal and Americans fleeing to topheavy trucks.

Non-argument. Texas wins again.

Anti Federalist
08-22-2015, 08:45 AM
However, I'd personally pay an extra 500 for a reinforcement around the occupant area.

You're paying quite a bit more than $500, which is also the point of the OP.

Given that you could buy the Matiz in Mexico for less than $7000, and the cheapest econ-box that you could buy here is roughly twice that, you are paying roughly 7 grand for Uncle Sucker's Safety.

And, like health care that has been completely bollixed by hidden costs, there is no real way to itemize all the mandates, it's not on the sticker, you can not make an informed or rational choice about any of it: "I need this, but don't want that, and will not pay this".

samforpaul
08-22-2015, 10:25 PM
from AF's article:

"Here we are – almost 2016 – and the typical new car is about as economical to drive as the typical car of 1985. This is hard to believe, but you should believe it because it’s true. The typical car of the early-mid-1980s was averaging mid-high 20s – just like today. There were numerous models available that approached or even exceeded 40 MPG on the highway. A few (like the diesel-powered VW Rabbit) got into the 50s."


One of those models from the 80's was Chevy Sprint Metro. I bought a 1988 and got 54 MPG - highway. Wish I still got mileage like that.

satchelmcqueen
08-22-2015, 10:44 PM
i like my 70 maverick!!!!