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View Full Version : Military bands to cost Pentagon $50B over next 50 years




timosman
08-14-2015, 02:27 AM
http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/161837-analyst-military-bands-to-cost-dod-50b-in-50-years


The Defense Department could be shelling out nearly $50 billion in the next 50 years for its military bands, a prominent defense analyst says, a figure that could raise eyebrows amid Washington’s new climate of fiscal restraint.

“The nation's military services really are going to spend over $25 billion on music bands in the coming years,” Lexington Institute COO and industry consultant Loren Thompson said.

After adjusting that figure for inflation and other factors, Thompson projects the nominal costs of the bands will approach $50 billion — a price tag he derided as “ridiculous.”

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The estimate comes at a time when Washington is grappling with the federal debt. Once considered immune from cuts, the Pentagon is getting a fresh look from lawmakers eager to find savings, and the department is expecting budget reductions in 2012.
Congressional leaders and the White House already slashed the military's 2011 budget request by $18 billion, and President Obama has called for finding another $400 billion in defense cuts over the next 12 years.

Senior House defense appropriators have told The Hill they already have some ideas about areas in the military budget that are ripe for cuts. The band programs could become a target.

The $50 billion tab calculated by Thompson includes travel for band members, salaries and a range of personnel costs.

The sheer number of military bands helps explain the projected total.

The Hill was unable to locate a single listing of all military bands, but the Army alone has more than 100, according to a U.S. Army Bands website.

The nation’s ground service has 35 active-duty bands, 18 Army Reserve bands and over 50 made up of Army National Guard groups, according to the site.

The Air Force has at least 15 bands, 11 regionally organized Air National Guard groups and at least one Air Force Reserve band, according to the Air Force Bands Program website.

Because formal ceremonies are ingrained in military culture, the number of bands has swelled over the years, analysts said.

“The military bands certainly serve a useful function for ceremonies and other important events,” said Todd Harrison, a defense budget analyst at the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Studies.

“Your performances might include parades down Main Street USA or the Avenue des Champs Elysees in Paris; military ceremonies aboard carriers at sea; public shows and concerts; and live radio and television broadcasts,” according to the Navy Music Program’s website.

Defense Secretary Robert Gates has often used a line in budget speeches noting, “We have more people in military bands than they have in the Foreign Service.”

Gates has said he borrowed the quotation from former Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice.

With that many bands, overall costs can swell quickly, analysts said.

Thompson’s figures were generated from a 2010 Washington Post article that calculated the military spends $550 million annually on all its bands.

“Multiply that number by 50 years and then add in a modest inflation factor — say, 2.5 percent per year, compounded — and half a century later you're talking real money, as the late Sen. Everett Dirksen [R-Ill.] might have put it,” Thompson wrote on the think tank’s website.

“If you add inflation and indirect costs like retirement benefits, the ‘then-year’ cost of military bands is more like $50 billion,” Thompson wrote.

A Pentagon spokeswoman said the $25 billion figure is a "good ballpark estimate" for how much the bands might cost over the next 54 years, with adjustment for inflation. She said the total cost for the bands without inflation would be around $17 billion.

The spokeswoman said the Pentagon would spend around $320 million in 2011 for band-related bills.

A $500 million annual military-bands budget “does seem rather high,” Harrison said. “I’m sure the department would be just fine with a lower budget for music.”

The comment from Gates, who last year spearheaded an effort that trimmed over $100 billion from within the Pentagon budget, led some DOD observers to question whether he would eliminate some of the groups. Ultimately, that did not happen.

While trimming the military’s music tab might be an attractive target for Pentagon bean counters, Harrison said there is no shortage of targets within a nearly $700 billion yearly budget, a figure that includes war spending.

“There are literally thousands of items in the budget smaller than this that could be trimmed a bit to reduce costs without losing anything in terms of military capabilities,” Harrison said. “The challenge is finding them all and then making the cuts stick.”

Thompson said he decided to construct the post around the “cumulative cost for military bands between now and the year 2065” to combat criticism about the alleged life-cycle cost of the F-35 fighter fleet.

Over the same 53-year span, some allege the total cost of Lockheed Martin’s F-35 fleet will top $1 trillion.

Thompson, a proponent of the F-35, said critics of the program fail to note the impacts of inflation.

“In the 1970s you could buy a new Mustang convertible for less than $5,000,” Thompson wrote. “Half a century is a very long time in economic terms.”

Gordon Adams, who oversaw defense spending for the Clinton administration, said projecting military costs 50 years into the future — either for fighter jets or bands — is "voodoo economics."

The number of military music groups is not likely to be pared, Adams said, "because people like all the pomp and circumstance."

roho76
08-14-2015, 04:36 AM
Can we at least make them march in front of the jarheads like they used too? Nothing would beat some entrance music to our symphony of destruction.

squarepusher
08-14-2015, 04:49 AM
1 Billion per year (im good at maths)

RJB
08-14-2015, 06:17 AM
Are they equipping them with the equivalent of Stradivariuses? That's a lot of money.

tod evans
08-14-2015, 06:21 AM
I'd much rather them waste tax dollars on music than undeclared wars....

acptulsa
08-14-2015, 06:48 AM
Yeah, we've discussed this before. Billions to help the NFL and NASCAR entertain their attendees and for recruiting fresh meat for the grinder, the occasional table scrap for veterans.

But the really frightening part is this little tidbit:


“The nation's military services really are going to spend over $25 billion on music bands in the coming years,” Lexington Institute COO and industry consultant Loren Thompson said.

After adjusting that figure for inflation and other factors, Thompson projects the nominal costs of the bands will approach $50 billion...

This guy's anticipating the dollar's value is going to drop by half in the near future? What does he know that non-insiders don't?

Ronin Truth
08-14-2015, 07:05 AM
"Military justice is to justice what military music is to music." -- Groucho Marx (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/quotes/authors/g/groucho_marx.html)

Occam's Banana
08-14-2015, 08:40 AM
The Defense Department could be shelling out nearly $50 billion in the next 50 years for its military bands, a prominent defense analyst says, a figure that could raise eyebrows amid Washington’s new climate of fiscal restraint. http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view4/1586878/hyde-s-laugh-o.gif

asurfaholic
08-14-2015, 10:11 AM
Lol ^

Ender
08-14-2015, 11:00 AM
I'd much rather them waste tax dollars on music than undeclared wars....

My thoughts, exactly.

timosman
08-14-2015, 11:05 AM
My thoughts, exactly.

Really ? :rolleyes:

Warrior_of_Freedom
08-14-2015, 11:06 AM
lol okay so where is that 1 billion actually going to? ufos that snatch up dissidents and toss them into the atlantic?

tod evans
08-14-2015, 11:07 AM
lol okay so where is that 1 billion actually going to? ufos that snatch up dissidents and toss them into the atlantic?

Probably pay airfare and lodging for the bands to promote the MIC.......

GunnyFreedom
08-14-2015, 11:31 AM
Article cited in the OP almost certainly adds in all kinds of nonsense, like the cost of sending everyone to boot camp who ultimately goes on to play a tuba, cost of the building where the future tuba player goes to combat training, and so on. There aren't enough band players in all the military to cost a fraction that much.

You've got the "big five" in Washington DC: Army, Air Force, Navy, Marines, Coast Guard, their instruments and travel costs, and then another 5 branch bands in DC, and usually you have unit bands at Corps or division level. 4 divisions of Marines, 10 Army divisions, the Navy usually has a band per 'group' 10 carriers, say a total of 15 groups, Air Force another 5 and Coast guard another 2.

So, adding every single music producing entity in all of the US military, you are looking at 46 bands, total. That makes an average of $21,739,130 per year per band, when the vast majority cost little more than salary and chow.

I have to throw the BS flag on this article. I could buy every single band member in the entire US military a Rolls Royce each and still not spend that much money. The London Philharmonic doesn't have the kind of operating costs that these military bands allegedly do.

Not that I'm defending the waste of taxpayer money, I'm not, but BS article is BS.

euphemia
08-14-2015, 11:46 AM
That's exactly right. These are not union musicians making $XXX for a two hour call.

Zippyjuan
08-14-2015, 11:47 AM
Yeah, we've discussed this before. Billions to help the NFL and NASCAR entertain their attendees and for recruiting fresh meat for the grinder, the occasional table scrap for veterans.

But the really frightening part is this little tidbit:



This guy's anticipating the dollar's value is going to drop by half in the near future? What does he know that non-insiders don't?

They are trying to compound interest. And not exactly the "near future" but 50 years from now.


The Defense Department could be shelling out nearly $50 billion in the next 50 years for its military bands, a prominent defense analyst says, a figure that could raise eyebrows amid Washington’s new climate of fiscal restraint.

acptulsa
08-14-2015, 11:49 AM
Article cited in the OP almost certainly adds in all kinds of nonsense, like the cost of sending everyone to boot camp who ultimately goes on to play a tuba, cost of the building where the future tuba player goes to combat training, and so on. There aren't enough band players in all the military to cost a fraction that much.

You've got the "big five" in Washington DC: Army, Air Force, Navy, Marines, Coast Guard, their instruments and travel costs, and then another 5 branch bands in DC, and usually you have unit bands at Corps or division level. 4 divisions of Marines, 10 Army divisions, the Navy usually has a band per 'group' 10 carriers, say a total of 15 groups, Air Force another 5 and Coast guard another 2.

So, adding every single music producing entity in all of the US military, you are looking at 46 bands, total. That makes an average of $21,739,130 per year per band, when the vast majority cost little more than salary and chow.

I have to throw the BS flag on this article. I could buy every single band member in the entire US military a Rolls Royce each and still not spend that much money. The London Philharmonic doesn't have the kind of operating costs that these military bands allegedly do.

Not that I'm defending the waste of taxpayer money, I'm not, but BS article is BS.

Well, in all fairness, you don't know that the military doesn't pay NASCAR for forcing their paying customers to sit in the southern sun and endure Souza marches. I never knew Bill France to fail to force potential sponsors to pay through the nose.

Nobody ever said recruitment was cheap.

GunnyFreedom
08-14-2015, 12:00 PM
Well, in all fairness, you don't know that the military doesn't pay NASCAR for forcing their paying customers to sit in the southern sun and endure Souza marches. I never knew Bill France to fail to force potential sponsors to pay through the nose.

Nobody ever said recruitment was cheap.

Let's assume that all of this is true, that the DOD is paying NASCAR and the NFL and so on millions of dollars to to 'allow' the bands to play at those events. The article in the OP is still crooked, because those costs belong to a different line item: Public Affairs and recruitment. A race car driver may have to pay an entry fee to race in a given race, but that entry fee is not considered a part of the cost of the car. There are some serious shenanigans going on with these figures. To quote GWB from 2000, "that's just a bunch of Washington fuzzy math."

RonPaul4Prez2012
08-14-2015, 12:03 PM
Its the least the pentagon can do for these brave soldiers who risk their lives fighting in the faux engineered wars that put a little extra lettuce in the military industrial complex's pocket.

Zippyjuan
08-14-2015, 12:07 PM
Just a quick count of the bands listed (and the article says that is not all of them) and I get about $2 million a year for each band.

GunnyFreedom
08-14-2015, 12:32 PM
Just a quick count of the bands listed (and the article says that is not all of them) and I get about $2 million a year for each band.

Sure, I didn't count National Guard and Reserve bands. How much does it really cost to practice one weekend a month, travel once a year to a two week competition, and then play music for internal unit promotions? Around $50,000 for an entire year to include all of the member salaries and instrument repairs and replacements?

Just. Not. Buying it.

timosman
08-14-2015, 12:37 PM
Sure, I didn't count National Guard and Reserve bands. How much does it really cost to practice one weekend a month, travel once a year to a two week competition, and then play music for internal unit promotions? Around $50,000 for an entire year to include all of the member salaries and instrument repairs and replacements?

Just. Not. Buying it.

From TFA:


The spokeswoman said the Pentagon would spend around $320 million in 2011 for band-related bills.

http://thinkprogress.org/security/2011/07/07/262525/gop-military-bands-food-assistance/


House Democrats recently made a small attempt at trying to find savings in the federal budget by cutting $120 million from the Pentagon’s $320 million budget for military bands. However, House Republicans yesterday approved a measure to strip that provision from the defense appropriations bill.

GunnyFreedom
08-14-2015, 12:40 PM
From TFA:



http://thinkprogress.org/security/2011/07/07/262525/gop-military-bands-food-assistance/

Sure, that's less than 1/3 of the cost cited in the OP article, and still probably includes the cost of facilities that are also used by units other than the bands.

GunnyFreedom
08-14-2015, 12:44 PM
Say there is a truck that spends 11 months out of the year moving tank parts back and forth, and 1 month out of the year hauling band instruments to a venue. Because the truck was used by the band, they can claim the entire cost of the truck as part of the operating costs of the band. I do not trust these figures.

More likely a big huge chunk of these band 'expenses' are really feeding into off-the-books black op slush funds. Like the $500 hammer and $1000 toilet seats. The DOD never really paid $500 for a hammer of $1000 for a toilet seat, that's just how they fund off-the-books operations.

I can believe $1Bn a year for band operations if you say 66-75% of that is going to a black ops slush fund. Now that actually makes sense.

Ronin Truth
08-14-2015, 02:41 PM
Isn't that pretty much just loose change to the Pentagon?

phill4paul
08-14-2015, 05:15 PM
Argue dollars and sense as much as you want. There is no reason for the Fed to rob citizens for even a single penny for....

http://blog.cnbeyer.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/original1-e1387009051931.jpg

Ronin Truth
08-14-2015, 05:18 PM
Argue dollars and sense as much as you want. There is no reason for the Fed to rob citizens for even a single penny for....

http://blog.cnbeyer.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/original1-e1387009051931.jpg

Sure there is. Because they can.

euphemia
08-14-2015, 05:23 PM
Part of what we get with military bands is the tradition. It is traditional to have Reville and Taps and each branch has it's own hymn/song that is a march. Who marches but the military?

Bands are in addition to everything else people do in the military. I don't believe it costs as much as they say. I like to keep the tradition of it. America has very little tradition that is so well known as military bands. The tradition of drum and bugle corps and high school bands is directly from the military. Even in ancient times it was traditional for bands of musicians to march ahead of the actual fighting units.

Flame me. I don't care. I like the tradition of military bands.

TheCount
08-14-2015, 06:00 PM
Given that the military has tried to close bases to save money... and been told no by Congress... tried to stop buying tanks... and been told no by Congress...

The bands are really the least of my worries.


If we want to reduce military spending, the absolute first topic should be our nuclear arsenal.

euphemia
08-14-2015, 06:31 PM
Stop sending our military around the world. Our folks when to Africa to do what should be done by the Peace Corps. Sheesh. Bring them home.

alucard13mm
08-14-2015, 06:32 PM
So will they be drummer boys on the front lines?

phill4paul
08-14-2015, 06:46 PM
Part of what we get with military bands is the tradition. It is traditional to have Reville and Taps and each branch has it's own hymn/song that is a march. Who marches but the military?

Bands are in addition to everything else people do in the military. I don't believe it costs as much as they say. I like to keep the tradition of it. America has very little tradition that is so well known as military bands. The tradition of drum and bugle corps and high school bands is directly from the military. Even in ancient times it was traditional for bands of musicians to march ahead of the actual fighting units.

Flame me. I don't care. I like the tradition of military bands.

Then YOU pay for them. Don't expect me to because of "tradition." Problem solved.

Henry Rogue
08-14-2015, 07:02 PM
Gordon Adams, who oversaw defense spending for the Clinton administration, said projecting military costs 50 years into the future — either for fighter jets or bands — is "voodoo economics."


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhiCFdWeQfA

Anti Federalist
08-14-2015, 07:13 PM
You killjoys...hup hup hup.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgABUZ4i9co

heavenlyboy34
08-14-2015, 07:27 PM
Part of what we get with military bands is the tradition. It is traditional to have Reville and Taps and each branch has it's own hymn/song that is a march. Who marches but the military?

Bands are in addition to everything else people do in the military. I don't believe it costs as much as they say. I like to keep the tradition of it. America has very little tradition that is so well known as military bands. The tradition of drum and bugle corps and high school bands is directly from the military. Even in ancient times it was traditional for bands of musicians to march ahead of the actual fighting units.

Flame me. I don't care. I like the tradition of military bands.
Marching bands for sports teams.

Slave Mentality
08-14-2015, 10:26 PM
Maybe they could save some of our money by not making every damn event a tribute to the heros fighting for our freedoms overseas.

heavenlyboy34
08-14-2015, 10:31 PM
Maybe they could save some of our money by not making every damn event a tribute to the heros fighting for our freedoms overseas.

The only remotely practical musician the military could possibly "need" is a bugler or two who can play taps.

acptulsa
08-15-2015, 06:18 AM
Maybe they could save some of our money by not making every damn event a tribute to the heros fighting for our freedoms overseas.

If they hold off on that, how will the impressionable eighteen year old boys see them strutting around in their Class A uniforms, see the male musicians marching next to female musicians, see the girls staring, and want to join up?

If you're going to talk a kid into dying, you had better find a way to convince him that they'll get laid first.

Ronin Truth
08-15-2015, 07:45 AM
The only remotely practical musician the military could possibly "need" is a bugler or two who can play taps.

And there's already several "Taps" MP3s for that.