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benhaskins
12-05-2007, 08:44 PM
any thoughts ?

Matthew Zak
12-05-2007, 08:45 PM
I have some!

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=47685

Great minds think alike.

benhaskins
12-05-2007, 08:46 PM
seems like a natural fit.

RegularRon
12-05-2007, 08:50 PM
Yeah sure it's a natural fit, untill you see Tom Morello wearing an old CCCP t-shirt. And there hatered for Free Markets, Private Property, Freedom, Liberty and everything else we are fighting for.

"Ohhh but they are Anti-War"...and Anti-everything else that Dr. Paul stands for. Go back to the Kunicih boards.

garrettwombat
12-05-2007, 08:52 PM
reminds me of huckabee... "Some of those that were forces are the same that bore crosses"

CJLauderdale4
12-05-2007, 08:53 PM
Yeah, I thought about RATM too, but they are anti-everything and stray so far as "anarchy". Ron Paul is not about anarchy, but the rule of Constitutional law.

BUT, it'd be nice to see RATM move over to that line of thinking...;-)

Paul.Bearer.of.Injustice
12-05-2007, 08:55 PM
Didn't Barry Manilow donate to the RP campaign?

Maybe a Rage/Manilow jam session is in order haha.

forsmant
12-05-2007, 08:57 PM
RATM are socialists. I gathered that from the reading list they have within Evil Empire's CD Jacket. I love RATM.

Anarchy=The absence of Rulers, not the absence of Law.

Oddball
12-05-2007, 09:00 PM
RATM SUCKS!!!!!!

LibertyEagle
12-05-2007, 09:02 PM
Rage Against the Machine are socialists. I see nothing in common with Ron Paul. Sorry.

Revolutn
12-05-2007, 09:04 PM
I love RATM to inspire my musically.

The raw energy and certain aspects of their lyrical message.


But....it is true they are not Libertarians....Highly Socialistic with tendencies towards anarchism.

It's not a perfect match.

"No matter how hard ya try, ya can't stop stop us now...no matter how hard you try you can't stop us now..."

"Renegades are the people, with their own philosophies, they change the course of history - everyday people like you me!"

"Fu@k you I won't do whatja tell me, fu@k you I won't do whatja tell me...."

"How long?! Not Long! Because what you reap is what you sow!"

"They don't gotta burn the books they just remove them While large warehouses fill as quick as the cells. Rally 'round your family, pocket full of shells. They rally round your family with a pocket full of shells, they rally round your family with a pocket full of shell..Bulls on parade!"

Rev

Matthew Zak
12-05-2007, 09:04 PM
They're not completely socialist, and many of their fans, like me, hear part of their message as it relates to Ron Paul's campaign. There IS untapped potential there. I would never, under any circumstances consider myself a socialist, and I'm a big fan of Rage against the machine. It's worth the effort.

garrettwombat
12-05-2007, 09:07 PM
RATM are NOT socialists in the bad sense. for a long time i really liked communism, and i still kinda do... if you actually study what true communism is. its not that bad... everyone just associates it with dictators which is not what true communism was supposed to be.

Ginobili
12-05-2007, 09:10 PM
I my self love the idear, but w/es :P

hard@work
12-05-2007, 09:10 PM
Maybe you should ask yourself "why" they are socialist? What brought them to this point? And maybe you should wonder how it is the Republican party allowed socialism to appear more just than liberty to so many people.

Corporatism has ruined us. Almost completely.

forsmant
12-05-2007, 09:11 PM
True communism and true capitalism have never been tried. Property rights is what its all about. Anarchists and Socialist believe that there is no such thing as ownership. Ownership is what the constitution protects. They are opposed.

In anarchy you would have to protect your property, just as you do now, except there wouldn't be the law backing you up.

RegularRon
12-05-2007, 09:12 PM
RATM are NOT socialists in the bad sense. for a long time i really liked communism, and i still kinda do... if you actually study what true communism is. its not that bad... everyone just associates it with dictators which is not what true communism was supposed to be.

Not socialist in a bad sense?? There's a good sense? Are you kidding me?? And communism?? You are a Ron Paul Supporter am I correct?

It's not Marx, but Mises. Not Engles, But Hayek. Not Stalin but Rothbard. Not Mao, but Friedman. Not Che, but Patrick Henry. Get my drift?

Oddball
12-05-2007, 09:13 PM
Maybe you should ask yourself "why" they are socialist? What brought them to this point? And maybe you should wonder how it is the Republican party allowed socialism to appear more just than liberty to so many people.

Corporatism has ruined us. Almost completely.

Socialism sells to whiny little bich punks in Irvine, CA, when they've never really had to hold down an honest job, then sell out to the dreaded "machine" when the price is right.

garrettwombat
12-05-2007, 09:13 PM
in my true deep down beliefs i do not believe anyone should own anything... and i think true communism if able to be protected would be the absolute best form of government with the best freedom and prosperity with equality.

Paul.Bearer.of.Injustice
12-05-2007, 09:13 PM
RATM was angry that the world isn't all hearts and rainbows and love balloons.
They hoped for a New-Ager type of world where we are all one big family that loves one another.

garrettwombat
12-05-2007, 09:14 PM
Not socialist in a bad sense?? There's a good sense? Are you kidding me?? And communism?? You are a Ron Paul Supporter am I correct?

It's not Marx, but Mises. Not Engles, But Hayek. Not Stalin but Rothbard. Not Mao, but Friedman. Not Che, but Patrick Henry. Get my drift?

no i dont get your drift... i said not in the sense of dicators... if you research what true communism is its not bad... true communism has never existed.

hard@work
12-05-2007, 09:15 PM
Socialism sells to whiny little bich punks in Irvine, CA, when they've never really had to hold down an honest job, then sell out to the dreaded "machine" when the price is right.

So the band got together and said "hey what's a good marketing plan to attract teenage angst?" before they began their careers? You can do better than this. Don't let your own teenage angst well up and override your logic. RATM when asked to do a track for the megaultramovieblockbuster "Godzilla" agreed, then openly ripped into the movie itself. They slipped it by right into the album, it became the smash hit "No Shelter". I think they were not too concerned with teenage angst when they did that.

:)

I guess I can say it another way. Why do people who flock to the ideas of socialism do so in place of liberty? What has created this effect?

I would HOPE ... that some of you ... HOPE ... that some of you would be intelligent enough to at least PARTIALLY be able to construct the reasoning behind my questions and the answers.

Oddball
12-05-2007, 09:15 PM
RATM was angry that the world isn't all hearts and rainbows and love balloons.
They hoped for a New-Ager type of world where we are all one big family that loves one another.

They hoped to sell lots of CDs to suburban wannabe punk boys, who liked hearing the same "lyric" line twenty-eight times in a row.

benhaskins
12-05-2007, 09:16 PM
i thought they were political activists for certain causes. mostly in cases where poor people were being exploited for whatever reason namely abusive government. i havent seen any evidence that they endorse communism.

forsmant
12-05-2007, 09:17 PM
in my true deep down beliefs i do not believe anyone should own anything... and i think true communism if able to be protected would be the absolute best form of government with the best freedom and prosperity with equality.

Well then my friend you are more of an anarchist than you know. Read the short story in the link below.

Oddball
12-05-2007, 09:18 PM
i thought they were political activists for certain causes. mostly in cases where poor people were being exploited for whatever reason namely abusive government. i havent seen any evidence that they endorse communism.

They're activists for their own bank accounts.

benhaskins
12-05-2007, 09:20 PM
The band are vocal supporters of the Zapatista Army of National Liberation (EZLN), especially de la Rocha, who has taken several trips to the Mexican state of Chiapas to aid their efforts.


Zapatista Army of National Liberation
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

The flag of the EZLN.The Zapatista Army of National Liberation (Ejército Zapatista de Liberación Nacional, EZLN) is an armed revolutionary group based in Chiapas, one of the poorest states of Mexico. Their social base is mostly indigenous but they have some supporters in urban areas as well as an international web of support. Their spokesperson and military commander, although not their leader, is Subcomandante Marcos (currently a.k.a. Delegate Zero in relation to the "Other Campaign"). Unlike other Zapatista comandantes, Subcomandante Marcos is not an indigenous Mayan.

The group takes its name from Emiliano Zapata, a proponent of the Mexican Revolution (1910-1920); The Zapatistas see themselves as his ideological heirs.

In 1994, they declared war "against the Mexican state."

Some consider the Zapatista movement the first "post-modern" revolution: an armed revolutionary group that has abstained from using their weapons since their 1994 uprising was countered by the overpowering military might of the Mexican Army. The Zapatistas quickly adopted a new strategy by trying to garner the support of Mexican and international civil society. They try to achieve this by making use of the Internet to disseminate their communiqués and to enlist the support of NGOs and solidarity groups. Outwardly, they portray themselves as part of the wider anti-globalization, anti-neoliberalism social movement while for their indigenous base the Zapatista struggle is all about control over their own resources, particularly the land they live on.

garrettwombat
12-05-2007, 09:20 PM
Well then my friend you are more of an anarchist than you know. Read the short story in the link below.

DO NOT tell me what i am or am not...

research the idea of communism before you come to me with crap like that.
and i dont mean the idea that the dictators had.

benhaskins
12-05-2007, 09:21 PM
The EZLN opposes corporate globalization, or neoliberalism, arguing that it severely and negatively affects the peasant way of life of its indigenous support base.

The North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) is an example of neoliberal policy that the EZLN is against. Apart from opening the Mexican market to cheap mass-produced US agricultural products it spells an end to Mexican crop subsidies and drastically reduces income and living standards of many southern Mexican farmers who cannot compete with the subsidized, artificially fertilized, mechanically harvested and genetically modified imports from the United States. The signing of NAFTA also resulted in the removal of Article 27 Section VII in the Mexican Constitution which previously had guaranteed land reparations to indigenous groups throughout Mexico.

1000-points-of-fright
12-05-2007, 09:22 PM
in my true deep down beliefs i do not believe anyone should own anything...

Then you won't mind if come over and take all your stuff.

garrettwombat
12-05-2007, 09:25 PM
true communism is the belief that everyone is equal... that everyone believes in hard work for the benefit of society(not government or people higher up than you)
everyone has there place but no one is better than anyone else...

you still have freedom and liberties in true communism, there is just no social classes.

the only way true communism could work is to bring about a radical change of thought to people, which i think would be extremely difficult to do.

RegularRon
12-05-2007, 09:25 PM
Then you won't mind if come over and take all your stuff.

LOL. With no thank you's or a reach around. Welcome to Communism

DealzOnWheelz
12-05-2007, 09:27 PM
Then you won't mind if come over and take all your stuff.

Yo I'm coming to man I want his PS3 you can have the laptop.

forsmant
12-05-2007, 09:27 PM
I have researched communism.

Do you believe that property rights should be abolished?

Do you believe in commune style living?

Communism doesn't have to have a ruling class.

here is a brief overview of the different schools of anarchist thought.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism

benhaskins
12-05-2007, 09:30 PM
them being against neoliberalism would be a contradiction

DealzOnWheelz
12-05-2007, 09:30 PM
true communism is the belief that everyone is equal... that everyone believes in hard work for the benefit of society(not government or people higher up than you)
everyone has there place but no one is better than anyone else...

you still have freedom and liberties in true communism, there is just no social classes.

the only way true communism could work is to bring about a radical change of thought to people, which i think would be extremely difficult to do.

Unfortunately that is impossible because what you are saying is that a neurosuergon should be paid the same amount as the "DING FRIES ARE DONE" guy?!?!?!:confused:


If you can explain that to me in a logical manner then I will donate 100 dollars tonight.

Remember LOGICALLY





*will take a couple of people to say "you know what your right!"

ThePieSwindler
12-05-2007, 09:31 PM
no i dont get your drift... i said not in the sense of dicators... if you research what true communism is its not bad... true communism has never existed.

Hmm interesting. True communism, eh? True communism was tried by lenin, that is, lack of even a pricing system, workers soviets ruling over production (rather than centralized planning), etc and they had to turn away from that quickly because it was starting to crash down. The pilgrims and Virginia company tried out communal living, and even in small communities of a few hundred, there were shortages and starvation even among the rich abundant natural resources of the New World - they CONFIRM THIS in their own writings. And they didnt have anyone forcing them to do it - they chose to do it initially. Of course, when they switched to private propety, and gave every man a plot of land to work for his own, they prospered and were able to trade with the indians (in true communism, protectionism is the trading paradigm, to "protect the proletariat" from outside competition). I would consider that true communism, and it failed - miserably. Im not sure in what ideal world "true communism" would work - please, show me an example, even an idealized one. Sure, perhaps "true" communism, like, the kind that "works" might happen if, say, you get rid of that pesky thing called human nature.

Sorry for the scathing reply, im not attacking you. So long as you vote for Ron Paul, i dont care if youre a communist - it actually shows how his integrity is so great he can attract people of opposite ideologies that not only respect him, but support and endorse him. If you want to live communally and not own anything, thats fine, but to make everyone do that, it will require force, because communism is antithetical to human nature and only ideologues would join on their own free will. Of course, as these communes will inevitably not last, it will require either force to keep people in the commune, or a shift toward priate property and markets.

Eric21ND
12-05-2007, 09:31 PM
I love their music, but they are marxist.

RegularRon
12-05-2007, 09:32 PM
true communism is the belief that everyone is equal... that everyone believes in hard work for the benefit of society(not government or people higher up than you)
everyone has there place but no one is better than anyone else...

you still have freedom and liberties in true communism, there is just no social classes.

the only way true communism could work is to bring about a radical change of thought to people, which i think would be extremely difficult to do.

Well, then count me in with the folks who still hate Communism, even if it's the "true version" or Mao, or Stalin, or Marx version. I will only work for the people I am responsible for. Myself and Family. Not you, not for the benefit of some utopian society, and Not for some scum-bag who will sit on his ass, while I'm out in the fields with a Sickle and Hammer.

Radical change? Better bring a lunch, cause that's going to be one hell of a battle.

garrettwombat
12-05-2007, 09:32 PM
I have researched communism.

Do you believe that property rights should be abolished?

no this has nothing to do with true communism


Do you believe in commune style living?

yes, hard work, caring for people in your society, not being better than anyone else, or being lower than anyone else in society.


Communism doesn't have to have a ruling class.

and whats bad about that?


here is a brief overview of the different schools of anarchist thought.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism

we arnt talking about anarchy here, we are talking about COMMUNISM in the true definition of the word.

ThePieSwindler
12-05-2007, 09:36 PM
true communism is the belief that everyone is equal... that everyone believes in hard work for the benefit of society(not government or people higher up than you)
everyone has there place but no one is better than anyone else...

you still have freedom and liberties in true communism, there is just no social classes.

the only way true communism could work is to bring about a radical change of thought to people, which i think would be extremely difficult to do.

Yes and then once people realized that communal living sucked, that there were no incentives to work hard because whether you worked hard or not, you got the same benefits. People would then starve because production eventually slow down and resources would be misallocated. Read about the virginia colony and how they nearly starved due to communal living - EXACTLY the sort you are talking about. What "freedom" and "liberties" do you still have? You might keep your freedom of speech intact for a while, but what happens when someone inevitably becomes disenfranchised with the communal system? Will he be allowed to speak out against the system? Will he be allowed to leave and shun his fellow communists? I hardly consider that "freedom" and "liberty".

Are you sure someone just didnt like, hack your name or something? Its one thing to argue for say, a welfare state, or something like that, but communism? Cmon now, come to your senses.

But anyways, damn people, these RATM "oh maybe theyll endorse ron paul" threads are absurd. Dont talk about smeone endorsing Ron Paul unless, you know, they actually say something like "I like that Ron Paul guy". These threads are so pointless we have to fill them with discussions about communism!

garrettwombat
12-05-2007, 09:37 PM
Unfortunately that is impossible because what you are saying is that a neurosuergon should be paid the same amount as the "DING FRIES ARE DONE" guy?!?!?!


If you can explain that to me in a logical manner then I will donate 100 dollars tonight.

Remember LOGICALLY

like i said, you would have to change the way society thinks.

if you have people only doing things for there self and there familiys it will never work.

but if you take pride in being part of society and believe in honest hard work for the benefit of mankind than it could work. some of the communists were some of the proudest people who ever lived.


and what does a neurosuergon have anything to do with anything? because he gets paid more in the current style of government, yes he worked hard to get where he is at... but does he work as hard as a laborer? this is where communism is a honest and proud way of living...

like i said its a radical change of thought.

garrettwombat
12-05-2007, 09:39 PM
Yes and then once people realized that communal living sucked, that there were no incentives to work hard because whether you worked hard or not, you got the same benefits. People would then starve because production eventually slow down and resources would be misallocated. Read about the virginia colony and how they nearly starved due to communal living - EXACTLY the sort you are talking about. What "freedom" and "liberties" do you still have? You might keep your freedom of speech intact for a while, but what happens when someone inevitably becomes disenfranchised with the communal system? Will he be allowed to speak out against the system? Will he be allowed to leave and shun his fellow communists? I hardly consider that "freedom" and "liberty".

dude im not talking about "what if's" or what could happen... im saying the idiology of communism is a very true and honest idea. and i see nothing wrong with it.

Paul.Bearer.of.Injustice
12-05-2007, 09:40 PM
True communism is only possible without greed or ego.
A romantic idea - probably inspired from an opium or absynthe trip like many works of literature and ideaology in the 19th century.

fletcher
12-05-2007, 09:40 PM
If you like communism, in practice or theory, there really is no reason you should be here at all.

ThePieSwindler
12-05-2007, 09:40 PM
no this has nothing to do with true communism


What? You mean true communism has nothing to do with the abolition of private property. Funny, both Marx and Bakunin, two rivals within communist thought, laid this out as the FIRST PLANKS of their manifestos. Considering the very defintion of communism is the abolition of private property and ownership (actually you are contradicting yourself here, you say you think nothing should be owned, but then you say that not owning anything has nothing to do with true communism) i'm not sure what this mythical "true communism" is of which you speak.

Vendico
12-05-2007, 09:40 PM
lol you guys got sooooo off topic.

forsmant
12-05-2007, 09:44 PM
Communism is an ideology that promotes establishment of a classless, stateless social organization based on common ownership of the means of production.


Anarchist communists propose that a society composed of a number of self-governing communes with collective use of the means of production and direct democracy as the political organizational form, and related to other communes through federation would be the freest form of social organization.

Striaght from wikipedia. Not the best source but a source nontheless.

ThePieSwindler
12-05-2007, 09:46 PM
dude im not talking about "what if's" or what could happen... im saying the idiology of communism is a very true and honest idea. and i see nothing wrong with it.

Then what the fuck are you talking about? The virginia company and the pilgrims are PERFECT EXAMPLES of communal societies with the best of intentions. It was voluntarily organized, there was no supreme leader though there were people directing the colony, no one owned property, everyone worked for the communal pool (well, at least, were supposd to work for the communal pool), everyone was even on decent relations with each other, since they had set up the society together. And you know what happened? There was STILL starvation, lack of resources, and many had to actually WORK FOR THE INDIANS! And this is just on a smal llevel where everything is supposedly managable, where people agreed happily to try communal living together with the best of intentions, etc. Man its fine if you believe what you believe, but you arent even arguing with fact, you are just putting forth opinion. Thats fine - but dont expect to win anyone over to communism with "i see nothing wrong with it".

I also dont get what this "abolish classes" rhetoric is. All communism does is put EVERYONE in the poor working class, and it completely ignores the fact that all humans have different talents, ambitions, etc. There is no reason to be ambitious under communism, thus individualism is destroyed, because it serves to chain down the ambitious nature of some. As churchill said, the virtue of socialism (and even moreso communism) is the equal sharing of misery, the vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings.

I mean none of this as a slight against you, im sure youve done a shit ton for Ron Paul and are just voicing your ideal. Thats fine - in a free society, people may have whatever opinions they wish, even (and especially) unpopular ones. I applaud you for standing up for your belief, and also realizing the merits of Dr. Paul despite your beliefs.

garrettwombat
12-05-2007, 09:50 PM
What? You mean true communism has nothing to do with the abolition of private property. Funny, both Marx and Bakunin, two rivals within communist thought, laid this out as the FIRST PLANKS of their manifestos. Considering the very defintion of communism is the abolition of private property and ownership (actually you are contradicting yourself here, you say you think nothing should be owned, but then you say that not owning anything has nothing to do with true communism) i'm not sure what this mythical "true communism" is of which you speak.

no i told you what the true definition of communism is... im not talking about textbook definition... im talking about what communism was originally dreamed to be.

Marx and Bakunin were not true communists... they each had diffrent ideas about it... and neither were on the lines of what communism was dreamed to be.

and no im not contridicting myself... i said i deep down do not believe anyone has the right to own anything, how do you?... and im saying in true communism you do have the right to ownership??? whats contradicting about that?

garrettwombat
12-05-2007, 09:51 PM
Then what the fuck are you talking about? The virginia company and the pilgrims are PERFECT EXAMPLES of communal societies with the best of intentions.

DID I EVER SAY IT COULD WORK... NOOOOOO...

WHAT THE FUCK DID I SAY? GO BACK AND LEARN TO READ.


and communism doesnt ignore talents... who gives a fuck if you can do something someone else cant... take pride in a talent... dont exploit it.


you think its fair brittney spears makes millions from being a wh*re and getting on stage to sing...

yet some singers who can sing way better never make it and barely make a dime...


and all at the same time im busting my ass in construction making ends meat... how the fuck is that fair?

DealzOnWheelz
12-05-2007, 09:54 PM
like i said, you would have to change the way society thinks.

if you have people only doing things for there self and there familiys it will never work.

but if you take pride in being part of society and believe in honest hard work for the benefit of mankind than it could work. some of the communists were some of the proudest people who ever lived.


and what does a neurosuergon have anything to do with anything? because he gets paid more in the current style of government, yes he worked hard to get where he is at... but does he work as hard as a laborer? this is where communism is a honest and proud way of living...

like i said its a radical change of thought.



So this guy....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFQyib5ZQZY

makes just as much money as lets say...

This guy
http://download.microsoft.com/download/d/a/1/da1340ec-3833-480b-aa53-d04c61858979/Bill_Gates.jpg


HHHHMMMMMMM......:rolleyes:


So in communism I can steal a womans clothing off of her body, right? It's not her possession Thats awesome!!!!


The Borg from Star Trek are communists wy don't you join them...

RESISTANCE IS FUTILE YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED

Mark Rushmore
12-05-2007, 09:55 PM
Then what the fuck are you talking about? The virginia company and the pilgrims are PERFECT EXAMPLES of communal societies with the best of intentions. It was voluntarily organized, there was no supreme leader though there were people directing the colony, no one owned property, everyone worked for the communal pool (well, at least, were supposd to work for the communal pool), everyone was even on decent relations with each other, since they had set up the society together.

Sounds frighteningly like the grassroots movement we've got going on here :(. Only replace 'property' in the tangible sense with 'political property' of the work-for-me-now-get-a-job-tomorrow type that accrues in usual campaigns. Taken in that sense it seems a good fit. Hope things turn out better for us.

garrettwombat
12-05-2007, 09:57 PM
So in communism I can steal a womans clothing off of her body, right? It's not her possession Thats awesome!!!!


your bluring the lines of what i said "I" believe and what the definition i gave for communism is...

please dont twist my words around.

forsmant
12-05-2007, 09:59 PM
You question is irrelevant in my opinion. You neglect the fact that the woman is possessing those clothes and probably wouldn't want to give them to you.You would only be able to steal that womans clothing if she let you. Same as now.

perpetualstateofwar
12-05-2007, 10:01 PM
Why are you supporting Ron Paul? Do you have any idea what he believes in besides his anti war stance? Go support Kucinich or Gravel.

DealzOnWheelz
12-05-2007, 10:01 PM
DID I EVER SAY IT COULD WORK... NOOOOOO...

WHAT THE FUCK DID I SAY? GO BACK AND LEARN TO READ.


and communism doesnt ignore talents... who gives a fuck if you can do something someone else cant... take pride in a talent... dont exploit it.


you think its fair brittney spears makes millions from being a wh*re and getting on stage to sing...

yet some singers who can sing way better never make it and barely make a dime...


and all at the same time im busting my ass in construction making ends meat... how the fuck is that fair?

Are you a talented construction worker?? do you get paid for your talented construction work?? do you donate the money that is above and beyond a Mcdonalds worker's pay to charity??


How many millions of people wanna watch you put a set of stairs together???
At the same time that is not Brittney spears exploiting her talent thats the record companies exploiting her talent, yes she wanted to be a star; but the record companies are the ones doing the exploiting


And wait You never said it would work???

Ok obviously there is something wrong. If you know it won't work, people have proved it won't work Why is it a good thing??? :confused:

And by the way its not just Human nature that makes this impossible its nature in general there is always a heirarchy, whether it be alpha dog or alpha male.

garrettwombat
12-05-2007, 10:03 PM
Why are you supporting Ron Paul? Do you have any idea what he believes in besides his anti war stance? Go support Kucinich or Gravel.

ok because ron paul is the only option we have. yes i know what he believes in... probably more than you do, dont tell me what to do.

all i said was a like the ideology of people being equal and free... what the fuck is so bad about that?

forsmant
12-05-2007, 10:04 PM
[QUOTE=

And by the way its not just Human nature that makes this impossible its nature in general there is always a hierarchy, whether it be alpha dog or alpha male.[/QUOTE]

That is a great point. Although hierarchy can only be established when one submits. Otherwise Alpha and beta are rumblin'

benhaskins
12-05-2007, 10:05 PM
my only point was the band might help attract new people but i guess they want to badger u instead ; ;

1000-points-of-fright
12-05-2007, 10:06 PM
ok because ron paul is the only option we have. yes i know what he believes in... probably more than you do, dont tell me what to do.

all i said was a like the ideology of people being equal and free... what the fuck is so bad about that?

Don't confuse equality with being the same.

DealzOnWheelz
12-05-2007, 10:06 PM
ok because ron paul is the only option we have. yes i know what he believes in... probably more than you do, dont tell me what to do.

all i said was a like the ideology of people being equal and free... what the fuck is so bad about that?

We are equal and we are working on the getting free part thats where ron paul comes in

you were born and i was born we both have a brain

we were both giving life, it is up to you what you make of it nothing is giving everything is earned

Mark Rushmore
12-05-2007, 10:07 PM
all i said was a like the ideology of people being equal and free... what the fuck is so bad about that?

Change "equal and free" to "equally free" and I'm on board ;).

garrettwombat
12-05-2007, 10:08 PM
Are you a talented construction worker?? do you get paid for your talented construction work?? do you donate the money that is above and beyond a Mcdonalds worker's pay to charity??

i dont understand what the hell your trying saying right there


How many millions of people wanna watch you put a set of stairs together???
At the same time that is not Brittney spears exploiting her talent that's the record companies exploiting her talent, yes she wanted to be a star; but the record companies are the ones doing the exploiting

dont be a dick, i never said i was a carpenter just because i said i worked construction... and who cares who is doing the exploiting... either way, someone is making more money over someone with the same talent or even better at the same talent than she has... whoever is doing it is irrelevant to my point.


And wait You never said it would work???

i didnt say it would never work... but i dont think it will ever come about, or it will be nearly impossible to come about.


Ok obviously there is something wrong. If you know it won't work, people have proved it won't work Why is it a good thing???

people have never proved true communism wont work... i like the ideology of communism.
freedom and equality.


And by the way its not just Human nature that makes this impossible its nature in general there is always a hierarchy, whether it be alpha dog or alpha male.

true, man has never been able to rule himself... that's why i said radical change in the way society thinks.

Spirit of '76
12-05-2007, 10:09 PM
Worst idea ever.

transistor
12-05-2007, 10:13 PM
RP and RATM? that made me laugh out loud

they're like polar opposites

MS0453
12-05-2007, 10:17 PM
true communism is the belief that everyone is equal... that everyone believes in hard work for the benefit of society(not government or people higher up than you)
everyone has there place but no one is better than anyone else...

you still have freedom and liberties in true communism, there is just no social classes.

the only way true communism could work is to bring about a radical change of thought to people, which i think would be extremely difficult to do.

Inequality and elitism are both natural and fantastic, in my opinion.

forsmant
12-05-2007, 10:17 PM
equality and freedom don't mesh. A law of thermodynamics says that all things tend toward chaos, (absolute freedom). Nothing is equal unless it is forced to be that way.


This post of mine sucks

forsmant
12-05-2007, 10:19 PM
Inequality and elitism are both natural.

Ahh, a much more eloquent way of saying what i wanted to say in the last post.

CelestialRender
12-05-2007, 10:25 PM
If you want a leftist band, System of a Down would be much more likely, I think.

However, I don't know why we're looking that far when Greenday or Rush would be FAR more likely.

garrettwombat
12-05-2007, 10:26 PM
i think bob dylan would be the best for anything to do with ron paul.

Revolutn
12-05-2007, 10:31 PM
Pilgrims were the first Socialists! - The True Story of Thanksgiving

The story of the Pilgrims begins in the early part of the seventeenth century. The Church of England under King James I was persecuting anyone and everyone who did not recognize its absolute civil and spiritual authority. Those who challenged ecclesiastic authority and those who believed strongly in freedom of worship were hunted down, imprisoned, and executed for their beliefs.

A group of separatists first fled to Holland and established a community. After eleven years, about forty of them agreed to make a perilous journey to the New World, where they would certainly face hardships, but could live and worship God according to the dictates of their own consciences.

On August 1, 1620, the Mayflower set sail. It carried a total of 102 passengers, including forty Pilgrims led by William Bradford. On the journey, Bradford set up an agreement, a contract that established just and equal laws for all members of the new community, irrespective of their religious beliefs. Where did the revolutionary ideas expressed in the Mayflower Compact come from? From the Bible. The Pilgrims were a people completely steeped in the lessons of the Old and New Testaments. They looked to the ancient Israelites for their example.

But this was no pleasure cruise. The journey to the New World was a long and arduous one. And when the Pilgrims landed in New England in November, they found, according to Bradford's own detailed journal, a cold, barren, desolate wilderness. There were no friends to greet them, he wrote. There were no houses to shelter them. There were no inns where they could refresh themselves.

And the sacrifice they had made for freedom was just beginning. During the first winter, half the Pilgrims - including Bradford's own wife - died of either starvation, sickness or exposure. When spring finally came, Native Americans taught the settlers how to plant corn, fish for cod and skin beavers for coats. Life improved for the Pilgrims, but they did not yet prosper!

This is important to understand because this is where modern American history lessons often end. Thanksgiving is actually explained in some textbooks as a holiday for which the Pilgrims gave thanks to the Natives for saving their lives, rather than as a devout expression of gratitude grounded in the tradition of both the Old and New Testaments.

Here is the part that has been omitted: The original contract the Pilgrims had entered into with their merchant-sponsors in London called for everything they produced to go into a common store, and each member of the community was entitled to one common share. All of the land they cleared and the houses they built belong to the community as well.

Bradford, who had become the new governor of the colony, recognized that this form of collectivism was as costly and destructive to the Pilgrims as that first harsh winter, which had taken so many lives. He decided to take bold action. Bradford assigned a plot of land to each family to work and manage, thus turning loose the power of the marketplace.

That's right. Long before Karl Marx was even born, the Pilgrims had discovered and experimented with what could only be described as SOCIALISM...and what happened? It didn't work! Surprise, surprise, huh? What Bradford and his community found was that the most creative and industrious people had no incentive to work any harder than anyone else, unless they could utilize the power of personal motivation!

But while most of the rest of the world has been experimenting with socialism for well over a hundred years - trying to refine it, perfect it, and re-invent it - the Pilgrims decided early on to scrap it permanently. What Bradford wrote about this social experiment should be in every schoolchild's history lesson. If it were, we might prevent much needless suffering in the future.

"The experience that we had in this common course and condition, tried sundry years...that by taking away property, and bringing community into a common wealth, would make them happy and flourishing - as if they were wiser than God," Bradford wrote. "For this community [so far as it was] was found to breed much confusion and discontent, and retard much employment that would have been to their benefit and comfort. For young men that were most able and fit for labor and service did repine that they should spend their time and strength to work for other men's wives and children without any recompense...that was thought injustice."

Do you understand what he was writing? The Pilgrims found that people could not be expected to do their best work without incentive. So what did Bradford's community try next? They unharnessed the power of free enterprise by invoking the under girding capitalistic principle of private property. Every family was assigned its own plot of land to work and permitted to market its own crops and products. And what was the result?

"This had very good success," wrote Bradford, "for it made all hands industrious, so as much more corn was planted than otherwise would have been." Bradford doesn't sound like much of a Liberal, does he? Is it possible that supply-side economics could have existed before the 1980s? Yes. Read the story of Joseph and Pharaoh in Genesis 41. Following Joseph's suggestion (Gen 41:34), Pharaoh reduced the tax on Egyptians to 20% during the "seven years of plenty" and the "Earth brought forth in heaps." (Gen. 41:47)

In no time, the Pilgrims found they had more food than they could eat themselves. So they set up trading posts and exchanged goods with the Native Americans. The profits allowed them to pay off their debts to the merchants in London. And the success and prosperity of the Plymouth settlement attracted more Europeans and began what came to be known as the "Great Puritan Migration."



I'm so sick of communists saying, it's never worked before because the right people haven't tried it.

Rugged Individualism is what always has and always will make nations and people great.

For those who see the evil and inequities of the current system and blame capitalism, take the red pill and wake up from the pro-socialism dream we're being lulled into like a sirens song calling to Utopia, and it show a fundamental lack of understanding of human nature and behavior.

Rev

hasan
12-05-2007, 10:31 PM
any thoughts ?

i have a feeling you have red E.M Forster's 'The Machine'. if not you should. its a great little story

CelestialRender
12-05-2007, 10:32 PM
true communism is the belief that everyone is equal... that everyone believes in hard work for the benefit of society(not government or people higher up than you)
everyone has there place but no one is better than anyone else...

you still have freedom and liberties in true communism, there is just no social classes.

the only way true communism could work is to bring about a radical change of thought to people, which i think would be extremely difficult to do.

Forced communism is necessarily wrong, and will always fail.

If you wanna live on a kibbutz, fine. But educate yourself before you claim that system works on a large-scale. It doesn't, it never will, it cannot by its very nature.

benhaskins
12-05-2007, 10:35 PM
the group that seems to play at their rallies is ok but doesnt really have mainstream popularity.

Spirit of '76
12-05-2007, 10:38 PM
the group that seems to play at their rallies is ok but doesnt really have mainstream popularity.

And among which demographic does RATM maintain popularity?

Oh, yeah. Angst-ridden teenage suburbanites pissed off that their parents are making them get a summer job.

Hardly the sort of folks who vote in Republican primaries...

garrettwombat
12-05-2007, 10:40 PM
If you wanna live on a kibbutz, fine. But educate yourself before you claim that system works on a large-scale. It doesn't, it never will, it cannot by its very nature.

did i ever say it would work large scale??? it would always fail under a dictatorship... true communism has never been tested. your not getting my point here...
all i said this entire time was i liked the ideology of communism... i didnt say it would work, i didnt say lets all try to be communist... its my opinion, get over it. i have educated myself about communism... and who cares if it doesnt work large scale? this has nothing to do with the point i made.

benhaskins
12-05-2007, 10:42 PM
i would guess ron paul has more young support than any other candidate. im open to other ideas but only criticism isnt that productive.

tiznow
12-05-2007, 10:43 PM
rage is misunderstood as clear cut "socialists", "communists" or whatever

they are against injustice that evolves due to big corrupt government globally

the star they use during their set is the flag of the

Zapatista Army of National Liberation (Ejército Zapatista de Liberación Nacional, EZLN)

more information on them can be found below

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The Zapatista Army of National Liberation (Ejército Zapatista de Liberación Nacional, EZLN) is an armed revolutionary group based in Chiapas, one of the poorest states of Mexico. Their social base is mostly indigenous but they have some supporters in urban areas as well as an international web of support. Their spokesperson and military commander, although not their leader, is Subcomandante Marcos (currently a.k.a. Delegate Zero in relation to the "Other Campaign"). Unlike other Zapatista comandantes, Subcomandante Marcos is not an indigenous Mayan.

The group takes its name from Emiliano Zapata, a proponent of the Mexican Revolution (1910-1920); The Zapatistas see themselves as his ideological heirs.

In 1994, they declared war "against the Mexican state."

Some consider the Zapatista movement the first "post-modern" revolution: an armed revolutionary group that has abstained from using their weapons since their 1994 uprising was countered by the overpowering military might of the Mexican Army. The Zapatistas quickly adopted a new strategy by trying to garner the support of Mexican and international civil society. They try to achieve this by making use of the Internet to disseminate their communiqués and to enlist the support of NGOs and solidarity groups. Outwardly, they portray themselves as part of the wider anti-globalization, anti-neoliberalism social movement while for their indigenous base the Zapatista struggle is all about control over their own resources, particularly the land they live on.

--------------------------------------------

regardless i'm a huge rage fan and absolutely love their lyrics regardless of what they stand for, self titled album #1 on my list of favorite album of all time personally

plus their lyrics are timeless as far as anti-establishment agnst goes in general, saw them live for the first time at vegoose at end of october was so awesome

Revolutn
12-05-2007, 10:44 PM
And among which demographic does RATM maintain popularity?

Oh, yeah. Angst-ridden teenage suburbanites pissed off that their parents are making them get a summer job.

Hardly the sort of folks who vote in Republican primaries...

The OP meant PokerFace, not RATM.

And the demongraphic RATM is most popular with tends to be late 20's to middle 30's since that was their demographic fan base when they were actually together.

They'd been broken up for several years, though they recently reformed for a tour.

Last I hear no new material was forthcoming though.

Rev

tiznow
12-05-2007, 10:49 PM
plus they held a concert outside our current "socialist" party the democrats national convention

they've been planting the anti-establishment seed in the younger generation since 1992

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

RATM played a free concert at the 2000 Democratic National Convention in protest of the two-party system. The band had been considering playing a protest concert there since April of that year.[57] Although they were at first required by the City of Los Angeles to perform in a small venue at a considerable distance, early in August a United States district court judge ruled that the City's request was too restrictive and the City subsequently allowed the protests and concert to be held at a site across from the DNC.[57] The police response was to increase security measures, which included a 12 ft fence and patrolling by a minimum of 2,000 officers wearing riot gear, as well as additional horses, motorcycles, squad cars and police helicopters.[58] A police spokesperson said they were "gravely concerned because of security reasons".[58]

During the concert, de la Rocha said to the crowd, "brothers and sisters, our democracy has been hijacked,"[57] and later also shouted "we have a right to oppose these motherfuckers!"[59] After the performance, a small group of attendees congregated at the point in the protest area closest to the DNC, facing the police officers, throwing rocks,[60] and possibly engaging in more violent activity, such as throwing glass, concrete and water bottles filled with "noxious agents,"[61] spraying ammonia on police and slingshotting rocks and steel balls.[62] The police soon after declared the gathering an unlawful assembly,[59] shut off the electrical supply, interrupting performing band Ozomatli,[60] and informed the protestors that they had 20 minutes to disperse on pain of arrest.[63] Some of the protestors remained, however, including two young men who climbed the fence and waved black flags, who were subsequently shot in the face with pepper spray.[62] Police then forcibly dispersed the crowd, using tear gas, pepper spray and rubber bullets.[62] At least six people were arrested in the incident.[63]

The police faced severe and broad criticism for their reaction, with an American Civil Liberties Union spokesperson saying that it was "nothing less than an orchestrated police riot."[61] Several primary witnesses reported unnecessarily violent actions and police abuses, including firing on reporters[60] and people obeying police commands[63]. Police responded that their response was "outstanding" and "clearly disciplined."[63] De la Rocha said of the incident, "I don't care what fucking television station said the violence was caused by the people at the concert, those motherfuckers unloaded on this crowd. And I think it's ridiculous considering, you know, none of us had rubber bullets, none of us had M16s, none of us had billy clubs, none of us had face shields."[64]

Footage of the protest and ensuing violence, along with an MTV News report on the incident, was included in the Live at the Grand Olympic Auditorium DVD.

benhaskins
12-05-2007, 10:55 PM
if u go onto their website they have freedom fighters of the month. the people or organizations seem to be quite the opposite of people supporting communism.

tiznow
12-05-2007, 11:01 PM
yeah they don't fit into some pre-conceived pigeon hole

like "capitalists" "socialists" "communists" whatever

if you want to call them something

call them anti-establishment

rasheedwallace
12-05-2007, 11:01 PM
rage are basically anarchists, at least in the minds of average americans...

the bad press would not be a good look for dr. paul.

tiznow
12-05-2007, 11:03 PM
haha was just looking through comments on a site for meaning of rage lyrics etc and i found this

we are everywhere :D

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"1776 ... long live the Revolution.

Many people forget that this country is a Constitutional Republic not a direct Democracy. A true Democracy is tyranny by majority. The founding fathers understood this and setup our Constitution to provide a Republic where the rights of the individual are protected from the will of the majority.

True "American Patriotism" as our founding fathers saw it, is the resistance of Government tyranny when it infringes on the rights of the individual. Freedom and personal liberty belong to each and every human being regardless of the existence of a government. The founding fathers revolted against King George and the British government by declaring these concepts, indeed risking their lives in the process. Those same men are now some of our greatest heros in history.

Today, men and women who stand for these same ideals are commonly ridiculed. Great men such as Ron Paul who stand firm on concepts that matter to our personal rights, freedom and liberty ... as well as the Declaration of Independence and Constitution are often ignored. Too often all of us are blinded by false perceptions.

Republicans and Democrats are, for the most part, busy wrapped up in using the government to pursue and execute their personal agendas. This concept is wrong. The role of government is not supposed to be social engineering our country the way the majority feels they think it should run. That logic results in oppression of individual liberty that is no different than the fascists we have fought over the years and that we continue to fight today in the Middle East. Instead, the role of Government is supposed to be protecting the rights and liberty of the citizens. Government is indeed needed as designed in a Republic to protect the liberty of each individual from every other person.

We need our country back, we need Ron Paul."

tiznow
12-05-2007, 11:05 PM
rage are basically anarchists, at least in the minds of average americans...

the bad press would not be a good look for dr. paul.

yeah i agree rage and ron paul not a good mix for the masses to put 2 and 2 together

but at the same time they are an instrumental force in the younger crowd that is behind ron paul at the same time

i was signing along to rage lyrics back when i was teenager

and now that i'm grown i feel i actually have a venue in the political world to translate some of that energy and agnst in a positive way

the anti-establishment small government leave me the heck alone seed has been planted in the 20-30 year old crowd for a long time now and not just in rage alone

benhaskins
12-05-2007, 11:06 PM
the band also seems to be politically motivated instead of looking for a paycheck. they might find the ron paul revolution appealing which is all it would take for them to sign up.