A Warning from Canada: Same-Sex Marriage Erodes Fundamental Rights

[William Tell]

I am one of six adult children of gay parents who recently filed amicus briefs with the US Supreme Court, asking the Court to respect the authority of citizens to keep the original definition of marriage: a union between one man and one woman to the exclusion of all others, so that children may know and may be raised by their biological parents. I also live in Canada, where same-sex marriage was federally mandated in 2005.


I am the daughter of a gay father who died of AIDS. I described my experiences in my book: Out From Under: The Impact of Homosexual Parenting (http://www.amazon.com/Out-Under-Dawn-Stefanowicz/dp/1632323559/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1429134811&sr=8-4&keywords=out+from+under). Over fifty adult children who were raised by LGBT parents have communicated with me and share my concerns about same-sex marriage and parenting. Many of us struggle with our own sexuality and sense of gender because of the influences in our household environments growing up.


We have great compassion for people who struggle with their sexuality and gender identity—not animosity. And we love our parents. Yet, when we go public with our stories, we often face ostracism, silencing, and threats.
I want to warn America to expect severe erosion of First Amendment freedoms if the US Supreme Court mandates same-sex marriage. The consequences have played out in Canada for ten years now, and they are truly Orwellian in nature and scope.


Canada’s Lessons



In Canada, freedoms of speech, press, religion, and association have suffered greatly due to government pressure. The debate over same-sex marriage that is taking place in the United States could not legally exist in Canada today. Because of legal restrictions on speech, if you say or write anything considered “homophobic” (including, by definition, anything questioning same-sex marriage), you could face discipline, termination of employment, or prosecution by the government.


Why do police prosecute speech under the guise of eliminating “hate speech” when there are existing legal remedies and criminal protections against slander, defamation, threats, and assault that equally apply to all Americans? Hate-crime-like policies using the terms “sexual orientation” and “gender identity” create unequal protections in law, whereby protected groups receive more legal protection than other groups.


Having witnessed how mob hysteria in Indiana caused the legislature to back-track on a Religious Freedom Restoration Act, many Americans are beginning to understand that some activists on the Left want to usher in state control over every institution and freedom. In this scheme, personal autonomy and freedom of expression become nothing more than pipe dreams, and children become commodified.


Children are not commodities that can be justifiably severed from their natural parentage and traded between unrelated adults. Children in same-sex households will often deny their grief and pretend they don’t miss a biological parent, feeling pressured to speak positively due to the politics surrounding LGBT households. However, when children lose either of their biological parents because of death, divorce, adoption, or artificial reproductive technology, they experience a painful void. It is the same for us when our gay parent brings his or her same-sex partner(s) into our lives. Their partner(s) can never replace our missing biological parent.


The State as Ultimate Arbiter of Parenthood



Over and over, we are told that “permitting same-sex couples access to the designation of marriage will not deprive anyone of any rights.” That is a lie.


When same-sex marriage was legalized in Canada in 2005, parenting was immediately redefined. Canada’s gay marriage law, Bill C-38 (http://www.parl.gc.ca/about/Parliament/LegislativeSummaries/bills_ls.asp?ls=c38&Parl=38&Ses=1), included a provision to erase the term “natural parent” and replace it across the board with gender-neutral “legal parent” in federal law. Now all children only have “legal parents,” as defined by the state. By legally erasing biological parenthood in this way, the state ignores children’s foremost right: their immutable, intrinsic yearning to know and be raised by their own biological parents.


Mothers and fathers bring unique and complementary gifts to their children. Contrary to the logic of same-sex marriage, the gender of parents matters for the healthy development of children. We know, for example, that the majority of incarcerated men did not have their fathers in the home. Fathers by their nature secure identity, instill direction, provide discipline, boundaries, and risk-taking adventures, and set lifelong examples for children. But fathers cannot nurture children in the womb or give birth to and breast-feed babies. Mothers nurture children in unique and beneficial ways that cannot be duplicated by fathers.


It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to know that men and women are anatomically, biologically, physiologically, psychologically, hormonally, and neurologically different from each other. These unique differences provide lifelong benefits to children that cannot be duplicated by same-gender “legal” parents acting out different gender roles or attempting to substitute for the missing male or female role model in the home.


In effect, same-sex marriage not only deprives children of their own rights to natural parentage, it gives the state the power to override the autonomy (http://thefederalist.com/2014/04/09/bait-and-switch-how-same-sex-marriage-ends-marriage-and-family-autonomy/) of biological parents, which means parental rights are usurped by the government.


Hate Tribunals Are Coming



In Canada, it is considered discriminatory to say that marriage is between a man and a woman or that every child should know and be raised by his or her biological married parents. It is not just politically incorrect in Canada to say so; you can be saddled with tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees, fined, and forced to take sensitivity training.
Anyone who is offended by something you have said or written can make a complaint to the Human Rights Commissions and Tribunals. In Canada, these organizations police speech, penalizing citizens for any expression deemed in opposition to particular sexual behaviors or protected groups identified under “sexual orientation.” It takes only one complaint against a person to be brought before the tribunal, costing the defendant tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees. The commissions have the power to enter private residences and remove all items pertinent to their investigations, checking for hate speech.


The plaintiff making the complaint has his legal fees completely paid for by the government. Not so the defendant. Even if the defendant is found innocent, he cannot recover his legal costs. If he is found guilty, he must pay fines to the person(s) who brought forth the complaint.


If your beliefs, values, and political opinions are different from the state’s, you risk losing your professional license, job, or business, and even your children. Look no further than the Lev Tahor Sect, an Orthodox Jewish sect. Many members, who had been involved in a bitter custody battle with child protection services, began leaving Chatham, Ontario, for Guatemala in March 2014, to escape prosecution for their religious faith (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/lev-tahor-ultra-orthodox-jewish-sect-quietly-moves-to-guatemala-1.2744971), which conflicted with the Province’s guidelines for religious education. Of the two hundred sect members, only half a dozen families remain in Chatham.


Parents can expect state interference when it comes to moral values, parenting, and education—and not just in school. The state has access into your home to supervise you as the parent, to judge your suitability. And if the state doesn’t like what you are teaching your children, the state will attempt to remove them from your home.
Teachers cannot make comments in their social networks, write letters to editors, publicly debate, or vote according to their own conscience on their own time. They can be disciplined or lose any chance of tenure. They can be required at a bureaucrat’s whim to take re-education classes or sensitivity training, or be fired for thinking politically incorrect thoughts.


When same-sex marriage was created in Canada, gender-neutral language became legally mandated. Newspeak proclaims that it is discriminatory to assume a human being is male or female, or heterosexual. So, to be inclusive, special non-gender-specific language is being used in media, government, workplaces, and especially schools to avoid appearing ignorant, homophobic, or discriminatory. A special curriculum is being used in many schools to teach students how to use proper gender-neutral language. Unbeknownst to many parents, use of gender terms to describe husband and wife, father and mother, Mother’s Day and Father’s Day, and “he” and “she” is being steadily eradicated in Canadian schools.


Which Is More Important: Sexual Autonomy or the First Amendment?



Recently, an American professor who was anonymously interviewed for the American Conservative (http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/the-post-indiana-future-christian-religious-liberty-gay-rights/) questioned whether sexual autonomy is going to cost you your freedoms: “We are now at the point, he said, at which it is legitimate to ask if sexual autonomy is more important than the First Amendment?”


Under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms (http://www.charterofrights.ca/en/27_00_01), Canadian citizens were supposed to have been guaranteed: (1) freedom of conscience and religion; (2) freedom of thought, belief, opinion, and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication; (3) freedom of peaceful assembly; and (4) freedom of association. In reality, all of these freedoms have been curtailed with the legalization of same-sex marriage.


Wedding planners, rental halls, bed and breakfast owners, florists, photographers, and bakers have already seen their freedoms eroded, conscience rights ignored, and religious freedoms trampled in Canada. But this is not just about the wedding industry. Anybody who owns a business may not legally permit his or her conscience to inform business practices or decisions if those decisions are not in line with the tribunals’ decisions and the government’s sexual orientation and gender identity non-discrimination laws. In the end, this means that the state basically dictates whether and how citizens may express themselves.


Freedom to assemble and speak freely about man-woman marriage, family, and sexuality is now restricted. Most faith communities have become “politically correct” to avoid fines and loss of charitable status. Canadian media are restricted by the Canadian Radio, Television, and Telecommunications Commission (CRTC), which is similar to the FCC. If the media air anything considered discriminatory, broadcasting licenses can be revoked, and “human rights bodies” can charge fines and restrict future airings.


An example of legally curtailed speech regarding homosexuality in Canada involves the case of Bill Whatcott (http://www.straight.com/blogra/411046/anti-abortion-anti-gay-activist-bill-whatcott-admits-defeat-canada), who was arrested for hate speech in April 2014 after distributing pamphlets that were critical of homosexuality. Whether or not you agree with what he says, you should be aghast at this state-sanctioned gagging. Books, DVDs, and other materials can also be confiscated (http://americansfortruth.com/2014/10/28/aftahs-labarbera-searched-and-detained-again-by-canadian-customs-agents-russian-documentary-sodom-confiscated-as-potential-hate-propaganda/) at the Canadian border if the materials are deemed “hateful.”


Americans need to prepare for the same sort of surveillance-society in America if the Supreme Court rules to ban marriage as a male-female institution. It means that no matter what you believe, the government will be free to regulate your speech, your writing, your associations, and whether or not you may express your conscience.
Americans also need to understand that the endgame for some in the LGBT rights movement involves centralized state power—and the end of First Amendment freedoms.


Dawn Stefanowicz is an internationally recognized speaker and author. She is a member of the Testimonial Committee of the International Children’s Rights Institute. Her book, Out From Under: The Impact of Homosexual Parenting, is available at http://www.dawnstefanowicz.org (http://www.dawnstefanowicz.org). Dawn, a full-time licensed accountant, is married and has two teenaged children.

http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2015/04/14899/

[AngryCanadian]

When same-sex marriage was legalized in Canada in 2005, parenting was immediately redefined. Canada’s gay marriage law, Bill C-38, included a provision to erase the term “natural parent” and replace it across the board with gender-neutral “legal parent” in federal law. Now all children only have “legal parents,” as defined by the state. By legally erasing biological parenthood in this way, the state ignores children’s foremost right: their immutable, intrinsic yearning to know and be raised by their own biological parents.

Yup true to this. Shame really to those that cheered for something that they dont know the legal process nor the consequences of it.

[William Tell]

Yup true to this. Shame really to those that cheered for something that they dont know the legal process nor the consequences of it.

Well, something had to be done about the fact that every human has both a father and mother. That's homophobic, don't ya' know?

[VIDEODROME]

It seems like long oppressed groups of any kind tend to go on a power trip once they gain any kind of recognition or get a hold of the reigns of Government and they keep piling on more and more demands. Some members of such groups are simply power hungry and some underneath are still holding on to resentment and take this as an opportunity to lash out.

The Women's rights movement lead to the ongoing Feminism movement with mixed results. The Civil Rights movement also comes with opportunistic parasites like Al Sharpton or Affirmative Action. It should be no surprise that some element of the LGBT community will do the same.

I'm not sure this is all a reason to dig in and refuse to let Homosexuals marry, try to keep things as they are, or even turn back the clock and shame or stigmatize them back into the 'closet' by blacklisting them from participation in mainstream society.

[Origanalist]

Americans need to prepare for the same sort of surveillance-society in America if the Supreme Court rules to ban marriage as a male-female institution. It means that no matter what you believe, the government will be free to regulate your speech, your writing, your associations, and whether or not you may express your conscience.
Americans also need to understand that the endgame for some in the LGBT rights movement involves centralized state power—and the end of First Amendment freedoms.

This whole mess is going to bring a shitstorm before it's over. I don't see people waking up and taking marriage out of government control, but there are rumblings, I hope I'm wrong.

[Dianne]

This whole mess is going to bring a shitstorm before it's over. I don't see people waking up and taking marriage out of government control, but there are rumblings, I hope I'm wrong.

Everything should be taken out of government control. The Congress is corrupt, the White House is corrupt, the Judges are corrupt. When the top is deviant, the middle and bottom falls in line with them. That's what we are seeing right now. A total degradation of society from the top, down.

[Voluntarist]

xxxxx

[specsaregood]

There are at least two sides to every argument. There are also the kids who meet their bio parents and come back saying, "I'm so grateful I didn't have to grow up with either of them." ... I've got a nephew who met his bio parents and came back with that response. In fact, it kind of brought an end to his teenage rebellion phase.
But the difference is; if when somebody says those things about a hetero set of parents does the following happen?


Yet, when we go public with our stories, we often face ostracism, silencing, and threats.
I think that was a big point in the OP citation.

[Cdn_for_liberty]

The culture war starts now. Churches that don't want to allow homosexual couples married there will be sued.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcGf_yOlai8

[nobody's_hero]

It seems like long oppressed groups of any kind tend to go on a power trip once they gain any kind of recognition or get a hold of the reigns of Government and they keep piling on more and more demands. Some members of such groups are simply power hungry and some underneath are still holding on to resentment and take this as an opportunity to lash out.

The Women's rights movement lead to the ongoing Feminism movement with mixed results. The Civil Rights movement also comes with opportunistic parasites like Al Sharpton or Affirmative Action. It should be no surprise that some element of the LGBT community will do the same.

I'm not sure this is all a reason to dig in and refuse to let Homosexuals marry, try to keep things as they are, or even turn back the clock and shame or stigmatize them back into the 'closet' by blacklisting them from participation in mainstream society.

Yep. See: Puritans. Religiously/politically oppressed in England. Tyrants in the New World.

[Voluntarist]

xxxxx

[Sola_Fide]

Yes, the hate tribunals are coming.

[Tywysog Cymru]

Let me paint a picture of not so long ago: non-caucasian children adopted by caucasian parents ... yep, it did.

Differences in gender are important, differences in race are not.

[twomp]

LOL I can't believe this made it to the front page of RPF. I guess the moderators are trying to make a statement about what RPF stands for hahah

[Sola_Fide]

LOL I can't believe this made it to the front page of RPF. I guess the moderators are trying to make a statement about what RPF stands for hahah

Not necessarily. But since it describes the loss of freedom brought on by decisions like this, it is important to liberty, and should be important to you too.

[RPfan1992]

The leftists want monogamy dead, using sob stories and hyperbole about bad heterosexual relationships to make it happen. We are heading to Brave Ne World type society if things don't change.

[twomp]

Not necessarily. But since it describes the loss of freedom brought on by decisions like this, it is important to liberty, and should be important to you too.

Sorry 2 gay people getting married or having a civil union or a contract or whatever you want to call it doesn't erode my freedom. Bringing up Canada the land of universal health care doesn't really present much of an argument to me either. Gay marriage was going to be acceptable across the United States sooner or later. The Supreme Court just accelerated it a bit.

Meanwhile, our REAL liberties are being taken away the by NSA and the police state armed with tanks. Innocent people die every day to our bombs while you all dwell Canada's gay marriage issues.

[William Tell]

LOL I can't believe this made it to the front page of RPF.

That's awesome, thanks for the heads up.:D

[Wilf]

Yes, the hate tribunals are coming.

Aren't they already in some states?

[Sola_Fide]

Sorry 2 gay people getting married or having a civil union or a contract or whatever you want to call it doesn't erode my freedom. Bringing up Canada the land of universal health care doesn't really present much of an argument to me either. Gay marriage was going to be acceptable across the United States sooner or later. The Supreme Court just accelerated it a bit.

Meanwhile, our REAL liberties are being taken away the by NSA and the police state armed with tanks. Innocent people die every day to our bombs while you all dwell Canada's gay marriage issues.

Dude, wake up.


In Canada, it is considered discriminatory to say that marriage is between a man and a woman or that every child should know and be raised by his or her biological married parents. It is not just politically incorrect in Canada to say so; you can be saddled with tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees, fined, and forced to take sensitivity training.
Anyone who is offended by something you have said or written can make a complaint to the Human Rights Commissions and Tribunals. In Canada, these organizations police speech, penalizing citizens for any expression deemed in opposition to particular sexual behaviors or protected groups identified under “sexual orientation.” It takes only one complaint against a person to be brought before the tribunal, costing the defendant tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees. The commissions have the power to enter private residences and remove all items pertinent to their investigations, checking for hate speech.


The plaintiff making the complaint has his legal fees completely paid for by the government. Not so the defendant. Even if the defendant is found innocent, he cannot recover his legal costs. If he is found guilty, he must pay fines to the person(s) who brought forth the complaint.


If your beliefs, values, and political opinions are different from the state’s, you risk losing your professional license, job, or business, and even your children. Look no further than the Lev Tahor Sect, an Orthodox Jewish sect. Many members, who had been involved in a bitter custody battle with child protection services, began leaving Chatham, Ontario, for Guatemala in March 2014,*to escape prosecution for their religious faith, which conflicted with the Province’s guidelines for religious education. Of the two hundred sect members, only half a dozen families remain in Chatham.


Parents can expect state interference when it comes to moral values, parenting, and education—and not just in school. The state has access into your home to supervise you as the parent, to judge your suitability. And if the state doesn’t like what you are teaching your children, the state will attempt to remove them from your home.
Teachers cannot make comments in their social networks, write letters to editors, publicly debate, or vote according to their own conscience on their own time. They can be disciplined or lose any chance of tenure. They can be required at a bureaucrat’s whim to take re-education classes or sensitivity training, or be fired for thinking politically incorrect thoughts.


When same-sex marriage was created in Canada, gender-neutral language became legally mandated. Newspeak proclaims that it is discriminatory to assume a human being is male or female, or heterosexual. So, to be inclusive, special non-gender-specific language is being used in media, government, workplaces, and especially schools to avoid appearing ignorant, homophobic, or discriminatory. A special curriculum is being used in many schools to teach students how to use proper gender-neutral language. Unbeknownst to many parents, use of gender terms to describe husband and wife, father and mother, Mother’s Day and Father’s Day, and “he” and “she” is being steadily eradicated in Canadian schools.

[Voluntarist]

xxxxx

[twomp]

Dude, wake up.

Why don't you wake up? Canada censors free speech and you blame it on gay marriage.

[Sola_Fide]

Why don't you wake up? Canada censors free speech and you blame it on gay marriage.

America doesn't? (And its not going to get worse now)? Dude, you are in fantasy land.

Here is the Department of Education logo for Facebook:

http://d2rg8jfniu44sp.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Dept_of_Ed_logo.jpg

If you don't think a brand new fascism has arrived, you are just a useful idiot. Freedom of conscience no longer exists in America.

[twomp]

America doesn't? (And its not going to get worse now)? Dude, you are in fantasy land.

Here is the Department of Education logo for Facebook:

http://d2rg8jfniu44sp.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Dept_of_Ed_logo.jpg

If you don't think a brand new fascism has arrived, you are just a useful idiot. Freedom of conscience no longer exists in America.

Your problem is with the attack on the First Amendment. You are using Gay marriage as an excuse. If you want to defend the first amendment, then do so. But don't use gay marriage as the reason for it. You are the useful idiot. What is up with bible thumpers and apocalyptic talk. Every time, it's the end of the world, the sky is falling OMG OMG OMG! Almost every government in the world censors free speech and you pick Canada as an example because of Gay Marriage. Hey guess what asshat, FREE SPEECH isn't allowed in Saudi Arabia EITHER! And guess what? Gay Marriage is punishable by death there!

[Brian4Liberty]

LOL I can't believe this made it to the front page of RPF. I guess the moderators are trying to make a statement about what RPF stands for hahah

Front page new stories do not indicate agreement or disagreement. Sometimes they are just interesting articles.


Not necessarily. But since it describes the loss of freedom brought on by decisions like this, it is important to liberty, and should be important to you too.

That would make it interesting, wouldn't it? ;)

[tfurrh]

Meow

[Sola_Fide]

Your problem is with the attack on the First Amendment. You are using Gay marriage as an excuse. If you want to defend the first amendment, then do so. But don't use gay marriage as the reason for it. You are the useful idiot. What is up with bible thumpers and apocalyptic talk. Every time, it's the end of the world, the sky is falling OMG OMG OMG! Almost every government in the world censors free speech and you pick Canada as an example because of Gay Marriage. Hey guess what asshat, FREE SPEECH isn't allowed in Saudi Arabia EITHER! And guess what? Gay Marriage is punishable by death there!

Well, Saudi Arabia has its fascistic state religion there, and America has its growing fascistic secular religion here. You have no idea what is coming. You are going to look back years from now when you had the freedom to speak or act without losing your job, wealth, reputation, or speech. Facism is here, and you go along with it like it's okay. Yay freedumb.

[twomp]

Well, Saudi Arabia has its fascistic state religion there, and America has its growing fascistic secular religion here. You have no idea what is coming. You are going to look back years from now when you had the freedom to speak or act without losing your job, wealth, reputation, or speech. Facism is here, and you go along with it like it's okay. Yay freedumb.

I completely agree with you. The only difference is I'm not blaming the reason for all that on GAY MARRIAGE!

[tod evans]

Differences in gender are important, differences in race are not.

Now that's some double-good politically correct speech comrade..

[acptulsa]

There are at least two sides to every argument. There are also the kids who meet their bio parents and come back saying, "I'm so grateful I didn't have to grow up with either of them." ... I've got a nephew who met his bio parents and came back with that response. In fact, it kind of brought an end to his teenage rebellion phase.

That's not an argument against keeping record of the child's biological parents and making opportunities for them to meet sooner or later. That's an argument for it. Even if a child doesn't know what genetics are, a child instinctively knows there are things he or she can learn about themselves from observing blood relatives. And 'What If' is a game every human plays. Only the most brutal foster parents have something to lose by letting the child get the answer to that question.


The leftists want monogamy dead, using sob stories and hyperbole about bad heterosexual relationships to make it happen. We are heading to Brave Ne World type society if things don't change.

This. Does anyone really think that anyone in the government driving this thinks it'll be good for children? Of course they don't. This is government engineering a problem, so later there will be a reaction, and they can propose the solution: Take the children away from parents at birth. Better indoctrination that way.

They really are thinking that way. They're just as cold blooded as the next bunch of lizards.


"A liberal is a man who wants to use his own ideas on things in preference to generations who he knows know more than he does."--Will Rogers 1923

And a politician is a buzzard that circles above the liberal, waiting to feast on the carcass of whomever the liberal, in his reckless, headlong rush, compassionately runs down and crushes.

[JK/SEA]

Greece is falling apart. I blame it on gay marriage.

:rolleyes:

[JK/SEA]

Well, Saudi Arabia has its fascistic state religion there, and America has its growing fascistic secular religion here. You have no idea what is coming. You are going to look back years from now when you had the freedom to speak or act without losing your job, wealth, reputation, or speech. Facism is here, and you go along with it like it's okay. Yay freedumb.

all this over 2 people of the same sex in love....yay ...freedumb is right.

[Sola_Fide]

all this over 2 people of the same sex in love....yay ...freedumb is right.

Well, what do you think? Do you think the secular facists behind this movement are closet anarchists? Or do they want to control my speech and expression ?

[jbauer]

Sorry 2 gay people getting married or having a civil union or a contract or whatever you want to call it doesn't erode my freedom. Bringing up Canada the land of universal health care doesn't really present much of an argument to me either. Gay marriage was going to be acceptable across the United States sooner or later. The Supreme Court just accelerated it a bit.

Meanwhile, our REAL liberties are being taken away the by NSA and the police state armed with tanks. Innocent people die every day to our bombs while you all dwell Canada's gay marriage issues.

I don't care whom you want to do bedroom activities with. I do care when they come to my church and demand that my preacher marry them. That is ultimately what is coming next. They came for the florist. They came for the bakers. They'll come for the churches.

Currently I am able to put my children in private school which allows them to be taught the morals and ideals that I want them to grow up in. Thank God!!!

[twomp]

I don't care whom you want to do bedroom activities with. I do care when they come to my church and demand that my preacher marry them. That is ultimately what is coming next. They came for the florist. They came for the bakers. They'll come for the churches.

Currently I am able to put my children in private school which allows them to be taught the morals and ideals that I want them to grow up in. Thank God!!!

Yes and if they legalized marijuana, we would all be heroin addicts. If they stopped monitoring all our phone calls, the jihadists will kill us all. Spare me your fear mongering statist talking points, I've heard them all before.

[William Tell]

Ignoring that the homosexual mafia exists does not make it go away. They are not happy with being left alone, as they have been in recent history. They will not rest until they are worshiped, and held up as an example of humanity at its greatest, that's pretty clear now.

Look at Canada.

[donnay]

Most laws erode fundamental rights. Get government out of all marriages.

[tod evans]

Most laws erode fundamental rights. Get government out of all marriages.

Government isn't going to get out of anything by it's own volition....

They'll have to be forcibly evicted.

[Terry1]

Your problem is with the attack on the First Amendment. You are using Gay marriage as an excuse. If you want to defend the first amendment, then do so. But don't use gay marriage as the reason for it. You are the useful idiot. What is up with bible thumpers and apocalyptic talk. Every time, it's the end of the world, the sky is falling OMG OMG OMG! Almost every government in the world censors free speech and you pick Canada as an example because of Gay Marriage. Hey guess what asshat, FREE SPEECH isn't allowed in Saudi Arabia EITHER! And guess what? Gay Marriage is punishable by death there!

Fact is that the argument for or against homosexual marriage should not be something that's legislated at all. Anyone should be free to marry whomever they wish in a free society. Truth and fact is that there is no good secular argument against homosexuals marrying.

Religiously and speaking on behalf of the church of Christ of all denominations--if they hadn't failed by succumbing to this world by many endorsing something the church as supposed exemplars are supposed to witness against, but with love, mercy and forgiveness--which IMO--they have failed miserably in doing so as well in their harsh judgments of homosexuals, instead of showing mercy, kindness and the love to draw them into the body of Christ instead of pushing them further away with hatred and animosity for this sin.


This is where many Christians have done the body of Christ much harm not understanding how they should be witnesses to the lost--they have become hardened with self-righteousness and judgment instead of mercy, forgiveness and love for the lost. The damage is done now and there is no undoing it at this point.
We can only hope that many who don't understand how the witness for Christ is supposed to be administered the way Christ instructed it to be will at some point realize where they err and get spiritually clued somehow.

Also religiously speaking yes--the Bible speaks of great signs that will tell us just how close we are to the fulfillment of Gods word by the signs. IMO--when state houses follow suit as the leaders of this nation and representative of all of the people of this nation light up the very symbol of who we are what we stand for being the White House in Washington D.C. celebrating something that God calls an "abomination" that will bring eternal death if not repented of--is truly a HUGE biblical sign to the believers and follower of God's word that yes--this can not be ignored or simply brushed off as something that has no bearing on what our Lord said would happen as a result of a nation of people who've turned their backs on God.

At this point I can say without hesitation that the church of four walls in this world has failed to be what they were intended to be, which was also foretold in the word of God.

Still--everyone should be free to decide their own fates and eternal destinies in this life and marry whomever they wish without oppression or laws that prohibit that. God is in control--not government.

[Brian4Liberty]

I would agree that it's not gay marriage in and of itself that will create problems with free speech and other liberties. It's the fact that this is part of the agenda of cultural Marxists and will be used as a tool to demonize and destroy political opponents.

Weapons don't kill people on their own, but when the neo-Marxist-socialist-big brother-totalitarians are driving tanks down Main Street, there may be concern that those weapons will be used.

[RPfan1992]

Ignoring that the homosexual mafia exists does not make it go away. They are not happy with being left alone, as they have been in recent history. They will not rest until they are worshiped, and held up as an example of humanity at its greatest, that's pretty clear now.

Look at Canada.

You are right, this is said by a gay rights advocate on the institution of marriage:

"I agree that we should have the right to marry, but I also think equally that it is a no-brainer that the institution of marriage should not exist. . . . Fighting for gay marriage generally involves lying about what we’re going to do with marriage when we get there, because we lie that the institution of marriage is not going to change, and that is a lie. The institution of marriage is going to change, and it should change, and again, I don’t think it should exist."We have three kids and five parents . . . more or less, and I don’t see why they shouldn’t have five parents legally.”

[twomp]

Fact is that the argument for or against homosexual marriage should not be something that's legislated at all. Anyone should be free to marry whomever they wish in a free society. Truth and fact is that there is no good secular argument against homosexuals marrying.

Religiously and speaking on behalf of the church of Christ of all denominations--if they hadn't failed by succumbing to this world by many endorsing something the church as supposed exemplars are supposed to witness against, but with love, mercy and forgiveness--which IMO--they have failed miserably in doing so as well in their harsh judgments of homosexuals, instead of showing mercy, kindness and the love to draw them into the body of Christ instead of pushing them further away with hatred and animosity for this sin.


This is where many Christians have done the body of Christ much harm not understanding how they should be witnesses to the lost--they have become hardened with self-righteousness and judgment instead of mercy, forgiveness and love for the lost. The damage is done now and there is no undoing it at this point.
We can only hope that many who don't understand how the witness for Christ is supposed to be administered the way Christ instructed it to be will at some point realize where they err and get spiritually clued somehow.

Also religiously speaking yes--the Bible speaks of great signs that will tell us just how close we are to the fulfillment of Gods word by the signs. IMO--when state houses follow suit as the leaders of this nation and representative of all of the people of this nation light up the very symbol of who we are what we stand for being the White House in Washington D.C. celebrating something that God calls an "abomination" that will bring eternal death if not repented of--is truly a HUGE biblical sign to the believers and follower of God's word that yes--this can not be ignored or simply brushed off as something that has no bearing on what our Lord said would happen as a result of a nation of people who've turned their backs on God.

At this point I can say without hesitation that the church of four walls in this world has failed to be what they were intended to be, which was also foretold in the word of God.

Still--everyone should be free to decide their own fates and eternal destinies in this life and marry whomever they wish without oppression or laws that prohibit that. God is in control--not government.

Its Christians like you that do your religion a service. There are very FEW that are like you. The majority of "religious" people no matter what religion they believe in are filled with hate and want to see anyone who disagrees with them demonized. The more religious they are, the more hateful they are. They are the ones that talk about the hate, wrath, hell and Armageddon more than anyone else. And the worse part of it all, they claim to do being doing it for God, love and peace. How IRONIC!

[Terry1]

You are right, this is said by a gay rights advocate on the institution of marriage:

"I agree that we should have the right to marry, but I also think equally that it is a no-brainer that the institution of marriage should not exist. . . . Fighting for gay marriage generally involves lying about what we’re going to do with marriage when we get there, because we lie that the institution of marriage is not going to change, and that is a lie. The institution of marriage is going to change, and it should change, and again, I don’t think it should exist."We have three kids and five parents . . . more or less, and I don’t see why they shouldn’t have five parents legally.”

I agree with Ron Paul's take. Marriage is a sacrament and a spiritual bond between two people that is ordained by God and God alone. A license or piece of paper is simply a legal document and nothing more. If gays want that--then they should be entitled to it because that in no way effects the spiritual bond that two people share as members of the body of Christ.

My argument is against any church of Christ that endorses such a bond under the authority of God almighty and not government being that this lifestyle and choice opposes every single thing that God stands for and He can not endorse such a thing being who He is and what He has ordained for mankind as a whole and allowed within His will. This is one thing that homosexuals can not shove down the throat of God--oil and water does not mix and no matter how much gays want to be within the will of God and still choose this way of life for themselves---can not happen--it is impossible unless they repent of it as Gods word tells them.


May the gays live in peace and be free to choose their own paths without judgment or persecution--God is the one who does that--not man.

[Sola_Fide]

Its Christians like you that do your religion a service. There are very FEW that are like you. The majority of "religious" people no matter what religion they believe in are filled with hate and want to see anyone who disagrees with them demonized. The more religious they are, the more hateful they are. They are the ones that talk about the hate, wrath, hell and Armageddon more than anyone else. And the worse part of it all, they claim to do being doing it for God, love and peace. How IRONIC!

Well your just being Captain Obvious. Most "Christians" out there are statists. Most atheists are statists, and they want to impose secular facism by force. Most everyone is a statist.

[twomp]

Well your just being Captain Obvious. Most "Christians" out there are statists. Most atheists are statists, and they want to impose secular facism by force. Most everyone is a statist.

And you fear monger just like the neo-cons do. Instead of TERRORISTS or instead of the moral battle of the DRUG WARS, you use Gay Marriage as your tool to try and scare everyone else into believing what you do.

YOU have become what you claim to be against.

[Sola_Fide]

And you fear monger just like the neo-cons do. Instead of TERRORISTS or instead of the moral battle of the DRUG WARS, you use Gay Marriage as your tool to try and scare everyone else into believing what you do.

YOU have become what you claim to be against.

I don't think anyone can say that I don't argue against war and the drug war much more than the marriage issue. I am passionately against the war state, the drug war, the surveillance state, the welfare state, etc....and the marriage state. All of it is statism, and there is no question that there is a growing secular facism that you are going to have to deal with as an atheist. Facism is going to take away your freedoms too.

Just as I am critical of Christian conservatives for their facism, you need to be critical of atheists for secular facism. That is, if you care about freedom. You might not.

[Terry1]

Its Christians like you that do your religion a service. There are very FEW that are like you. The majority of "religious" people no matter what religion they believe in are filled with hate and want to see anyone who disagrees with them demonized. The more religious they are, the more hateful they are. They are the ones that talk about the hate, wrath, hell and Armageddon more than anyone else. And the worse part of it all, they claim to do being doing it for God, love and peace. How IRONIC!

Yes--you're right and for this reason the body of Christ suffers from many Christians lacking in the spiritual knowledge of how to witness to the lost. We are never to be unkind, judgmental or hateful, but we are commanded to love them the same as we ourselves want to be loved. This is where I say that it's not gays who are to blame for failure of the church in this world--the blame falls on the church itself--they have failed. We're not talking about all churches because there are some that do teach a witness of Christ rightly--but many fail either by and through support of something that God is against or through their harsh judgments of lost sinners.

Christians are not suppose to judge the lost--our only purpose was always to love them and draw them into the body with love, mercy, forgiveness and the same love that our Lord had shown us when we were lost as well. We are only supposed to sow seeds of love and nothing more and witness that same love that Jesus did for us when He gave the ultimate sacrifice for all sinners.

[William Tell]

When same-sex marriage was legalized in Canada in 2005, parenting was immediately redefined. Canada’s gay marriage law, Bill C-38, included a provision to erase the term “natural parent” and replace it across the board with gender-neutral “legal parent” in federal law. Now all children only have “legal parents,” as defined by the state. By legally erasing biological parenthood in this way, the state ignores children’s foremost right: their immutable, intrinsic yearning to know and be raised by their own biological parents.







Yeah, just fear mongering, couldn't happen in Canada, won't happen here. Nothing to see here, move along......

[twomp]

Yeah, just fear mongering, couldn't happen in Canada, won't happen here. Nothing to see here, move along......

Hey, the majority of the world doesn't accept Gay Marriages and they STILL have no freedom of speech but okay, let's just focus on CANADA because you know Gay Marriage is evil!! Boggity Boggity!!! Boo!!!

[twomp]

Yes--you're right and for this reason the body of Christ suffers from many Christians lacking in the spiritual knowledge of how to witness to the lost. We are never to be unkind, judgmental or hateful, but we are commanded to love them the same as we ourselves want to be loved. This is where I say that it's not gays who are to blame for failure of the church in this world--the blame falls on the church itself--they have failed. We're not talking about all churches because there are some that do teach a witness of Christ rightly--but many fail either by and through support of something that God is against or through their harsh judgments of lost sinners.

Christians are not suppose to judge the lost--our only purpose was always to love them and draw them into the body with love, mercy, forgiveness and the same love that our Lord had shown us when we were lost as well. We are only supposed to sow seeds of love and nothing more and witness that same love that Jesus did for us when He gave the ultimate sacrifice for all sinners.

I would +rep you again if I could! Well said!

[William Tell]

When same-sex marriage was created in Canada, gender-neutral language became legally mandated. Newspeak proclaims that it is discriminatory to assume a human being is male or female, or heterosexual. So, to be inclusive, special non-gender-specific language is being used in media, government, workplaces, and especially schools to avoid appearing ignorant, homophobic, or discriminatory. A special curriculum is being used in many schools to teach students how to use proper gender-neutral language. Unbeknownst to many parents, use of gender terms to describe husband and wife, father and mother, Mother’s Day and Father’s Day, and “he” and “she” is being steadily eradicated in Canadian schools. Way to go! maybe the sexist and hurtful terms husband and wife will finally be banned, and replaced by the intimate word 'partner' by law!

[twomp]

Way to go! maybe the sexist and hurtful terms husband and wife will finally be banned, and replaced by the intimate word 'partner' by law!

Oh CANADA, LOOK at what the GAYS DID TO CANADA!! OMG OMG THE SKY IS FALLING!!!! THE WORLD IS ENDING!!!

[Sola_Fide]

Anyone who is offended by something you have said or written can make a complaint to the Human Rights Commissions and Tribunals. In Canada, these organizations police speech, penalizing citizens for any expression deemed in opposition to particular sexual behaviors or protected groups identified under “sexual orientation.” It takes only one complaint against a person to be brought before the tribunal, costing the defendant tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees. The commissions have the power to enter private residences and remove all items pertinent to their investigations, checking for hate speech.


The plaintiff making the complaint has his legal fees completely paid for by the government. Not so the defendant. Even if the defendant is found innocent, he cannot recover his legal costs. If he is found guilty, he must pay fines to the person(s) who brought forth the complaint.


If your beliefs, values, and political opinions are different from the state’s, you risk losing your professional license, job, or business, and even your children.*


Nah, that can't happen here. BOOGITY BOOGITY

[William Tell]

The UK is enlightened as well.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12LtOKQ8U7c

[twomp]

Nah, that can't happen here. BOOGITY BOOGITY

There are PLENTY of countries that don't allow Gay Marriage, let's see if you find free speech there? After all, its the gays fault right?

[Sola_Fide]

The UK is enlightened as well.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12LtOKQ8U7c


That will never happen here! This is 'Murica... the land of the free and the home of the brave!

[Sola_Fide]

There are PLENTY of countries that don't allow Gay Marriage, let's see if you find free speech there? After all, its the gays fault right?

I already dealt with that argument in post #27 of this thread.

[twomp]

That will never happen here! This is 'Murica... the land of the free and the home of the brave!

I am sure you aren't aware of this but our freedoms were eroding WAYYY before the Supreme Court decision but hey, now would be a good time to blame it all on the GAYS wouldn't it? How convenient.

[twomp]

I already dealt with that argument in post #27 of this thread.

Yes and I dealt with your argument in post #28 of this thread.

[Sola_Fide]

I am sure you aren't aware of this but our freedoms were eroding WAYYY before the Supreme Court decision but hey, now would be a good time to blame it all on the GAYS wouldn't it? How convenient.

Where did I blame it ALL on homosexuals? The recent judicial tyranny is endemic of the growing secular facism in this country. What? Do you think most atheists or homosexuals are anarchists? No, they are staists. You need to deal with this, because if you are not arguing against secular facism like I argue against "Christian" facism, then you need to pick another movement to be a part of. Freedom isn't for you.

[Sola_Fide]

Yes and I dealt with your argument in post #28 of this thread.

No, you agreed with me in post #28.

[twomp]

No, you agreed with me in post #28.

I still do with exception to the one difference. I don't blame this all on GAY MARRIAGE like you do!

[twomp]

I think the reason Gay marriage was passed by the Supreme Court was all your guys fault. You spend too much time trolling these forums and not enough time praying. Back to your rooms and PRAY HARDER! God will take care of this. PRAY MOARRRR!!!

[Sola_Fide]

I think the reason Gay marriage was passed by the Supreme Court was all your guys fault. You spend too much time trolling these forums and not enough time praying. Back to your rooms and PRAY HARDER! God will take care of this. PRAY MOARRRR!!!

Haha...and now you're trying to insult Christians. You are all on board with this campaign. Don't worry, very soon all of our speech will be monitored and praying will be illegal. You'll get what you and the other secular facists want. Congratulations.

It doesn't insult me though. I know that God is the sovereign Judge who judges the nations for their sins. This is what is happening. If you want to deny the Lord and worship the state as an idol, you will get judged for it with servitude.

[William Tell]

I think the reason Gay marriage was passed by the Supreme Court was all your guys fault. You spend too much time trolling these forums and not enough time praying. Back to your rooms and PRAY HARDER! God will take care of this. PRAY MOARRRR!!!
Yeah, shining the light on what is coming is trolling.:rolleyes:

[twomp]

Haha...and now you're trying to insult Christians. You are all on board with this campaign. Don't worry, very soon all of our speech will be monitored and praying will be illegal. You'll get what you and the other secular facists want. Congratulations.

It doesn't insult me though. I know that God is the sovereign Judge who judges the nations for their sins. This is what is happening. If you want to deny the Lord and worship the state as an idol, you will get judged for it with servitude.

It's obvious that the government has failed you. Its time to turn to God to save you like you should have from the beginning. For every post that you post here, pray 5 minutes. 10 posts = 50 minutes of prayer. God doesn't need to hear your words because words are cheap. Sacrifice your time to show your dedication. Go PRAY HARDER!!

[Sola_Fide]

It's obvious that the government has failed you. Its time to turn to God to save you like you should have from the beginning. For every post that you post here, pray 5 minutes. 10 posts = 50 minutes of prayer. God doesn't need to hear your words because words are cheap. Sacrifice your time to show your dedication. Go PRAY HARDER!!

Good zinger man!

[twomp]

Good zinger man!

5 more minutes of praying for you!

[Sola_Fide]

5 more minutes of praying for you!

Boom! You got me again!

[twomp]

Boom! You got me again!

Thanks! I don't know how I come up with it. Maybe "divine inspiration."

[Sam I am]

The article in the OP is very wrong-headed. The whole concern with gay marriage in the article is that other laws might be supported by the same people who supported gay marriage.

That is not a valid excuce for the law to treat people unequally.

[Brett85]

I can't get the link to work. Is there another one?

[tod evans]

The article in the OP is very wrong-headed.

Sounded to me like someones opinion who'd been there, done that......

Do you have anything comparable on which to base your opinion or are you just discounting theirs out of hand?

[Brett85]

Never mind, I found another link.

http://www.cnsnews.com/commentary/dawn-stefanowicz/warning-canada-same-sex-marriage-erodes-fundamental-rights

[Tywysog Cymru]

The radical gay activists aren't satisfied with every state recognizing their perversion. They can't stand that some rural counties in Texas, Kentucky, and elsewhere, which probably have very few gays, won't legitimize it with a license. Likewise, I'm sure that very few gays want to be associated with the Reformed Baptists or the Orthodox Jews, but they just can't stand that someone isn't celebrating their immoral lifestyle, so both of those groups will be forced to "marry" gays.

[Christian Liberty]

Haha...and now you're trying to insult Christians. You are all on board with this campaign. Don't worry, very soon all of our speech will be monitored and praying will be illegal. You'll get what you and the other secular facists want. Congratulations.

It doesn't insult me though. I know that God is the sovereign Judge who judges the nations for their sins. This is what is happening. If you want to deny the Lord and worship the state as an idol, you will get judged for it with servitude.

Also look at Psalm 2 and WHY the nations are judged ;)