The ‘Southern Avenger’ Repents: I Was Wrong About the Confederate Flag

[randomname]

States’ rights? Heritage? I was wrong: The Confederate flag has always been about race.

As a Charleston, South Carolina-based conservative radio personality known as the “Southern Avenger,” I spent a decade defending the Confederate flag that is yet again the center of so much controversy.

I said the flag was about states’ rights. I said it stood for self-determination. I said it honored heritage.

I argued the Confederate flag wasn’t about race. I believed it. Millions of well-meaning Southerners believe it too.

I was wrong. That flag is always about race. Whatever political or historical points the flag’s defenders make, there will never be a time—and never has been a time—in which millions of Americans have looked at that symbol and not seen hatred.

We can argue for the rest of time whether this is fair or not. And for the rest of time, that symbol will still be seen in an overwhelmingly negative light.

Those who see hatred have political and historical reasons too.

This has always been the Confederate flag debate game. One camp’s arguments are supposed to trump the other’s.

I’m not here to settle those arguments. I tired of them years ago.

But I am here to say there is something at stake far more important than this symbol.

Heritage might not be hate. But battling hate is far more important than anyone’s heritage, politics, or just about anything else. We should have different priorities.

I now have different priorities.

Dylann Roof is a reminder of what’s at stake.

***

The week before a white supremacist murdered nine black men and women in my hometown of Charleston, I was angry at my fellow conservatives.

A 14-year-old black girl attending a pool party in McKinney, Texas, had been manhandled and thrown to the ground by a police officer. The girl had done nothing except talk. She was just standing there with other teenagers.

It was revolting to watch. I asked others to imagine it was their daughter.

The overwhelming response was that she was a “thug” who was “no saint” and needed to be taught “respect.” The comments were as revolting as the act—an adult mob praising the assault of a 100-pound, half-naked and scared black kid. I pleaded again for people to stop defending this. It got uglier.

It bothered me greatly, probably because at one time I might have done the same thing.

In my role as a conservative radio personality, I would’ve likely joined in in calling a group of excited black teenagers, or protesters, “thugs.” I might have called illegal immigrants criminals or worse. Muslims would’ve been slandered as terrorists.

Ugliness was a stock-in-trade.

I thought a big part of being conservative meant picking a “side” and attacking the other. I thought not caring what others thought or felt was part of it. Some of my Confederate flag debates certainly reflected that mentality.

This is something ideologues do and is by no means exclusive to the right, as evidenced by the way some liberals cartoonishly portray conservatives, Christians, and, yes, Southerners.

Ideologues ridicule and dehumanize people at the expense of their personhood. Ideologues believe some groups must be attacked, and although the groups are comprised of flesh-and-blood human beings, it’s better not to think of them as people too much—it could get you off message.

It’s crude collectivist thinking. It’s an intentional lack of sympathy. It’s dehumanization. It’s at the heart of everything that’s wrong with our politics and culture.

In its most extreme form, it’s what’s wrong with Dylann Roof.

Between the reports of his racist words and manifesto, we know Roof had a mission: to murder black people. Entering the Emmanuel A.M.E. Church Wednesday and sitting with the group for an hour, Roof confessed that he “almost didn’t go through with it because everyone was so nice to him.”

But instead he chose to “go through with his mission.” He had to shrug off their kindness. These weren’t people. They were just “blacks.” They were on the wrong side.

Roof’s hateful tunnel vision led him to commit pure evil.

What is the polar opposite of such hatred? The forgiveness demonstrated by Roof’s victim’s families. Said the daughter of Ethel Lance, “I will never be able to hold her again, but I forgive you.”

“And have mercy on your soul. You hurt me. You hurt a lot of people but God forgives you, and I forgive you.”

This is humanity. It is a rejection of collectivist thinking. It is the epitome of sympathy. It’s grace. It’s love.

My attraction to libertarianism a number of years ago began a journey of rejecting groupthink and placing primacy on the individual. Once you start down the path of putting individual human beings above whatever group they belong to, it puts politics—and everything else—in a new light.

Putting people before an agenda or broad prejudices puts us all in a much better place. It can, and should, make us repentant of our past behavior. It did for me.

A 14-year-old girl at a pool party isn’t a “thug” who deserves abuse. She’s a child. Decent people should view her as such.

We can be more decent.

As a native of Charleston, I was touched, but not surprised by some of the victims’ families’ responses to Roof. My hometown is filled with loving men and women of all races. You’ve seen them in the streets and at the vigils in the last week throughout the South Carolina Lowcountry, holding hands and sharing this grief.

They are also the kind of Southerners who would be attacked in another context for their religious or traditional beliefs. They are the kind of people who are being attacked right now by pundits living thousands of miles away from this heartbroken city, who know nothing about Charleston and choose to impose their own politics on this tragedy. Peggy Noonan is right, “Why don’t you leave the grieving alone right now? Why don’t you not impose your agenda items on them? Why don’t you not force them to debate while they have tears in their throats?”

Some of the people you’ve seen join hands with their Charleston brethren in recent days likely have supported the Confederate flag. Support for this symbol is hard for most outside the South to even understand.

I would ask readers to at least try to understand these folks. Many are not coming from a place of hate.

Others are. Too many have for a very long time. One hateful man did so again last week in a way our nation will not soon forget.

This is why it’s finally time to take down the Confederate flag.

***

As a Southerner, I long stuck up for my “side.” The South was right. The North was wrong. The Confederate flag was right and those who attacked it were wrong.

Those who defend the Confederate flag always have to add the caveat that others have “appropriated” it for racist causes. This is true.

Dylann Roof appropriated it precisely for this reason. He didn’t choose a random symbol and make it his own. He chose the Confederate flag precisely because of the negative light in which most view it.

I’m writing this column in a restaurant I frequent and am conscious every time a particular black server I’ve come to know walks by. I don’t want him to see the words “Confederate flag” and think I’m writing about it positively.

As a Southerner, I long stuck up for my “side.” The South was right. The North was wrong.

I have no intention of stopping him to educate him about the “true” meaning of the Confederate flag, as I might have years ago. I’m certain as a black American he already has a pretty concrete idea of how he feels about that symbol.

Black Americans have too many reasons to despise the Confederate flag. From slavery, to Jim Crow, to last week—it is so bloodstained today that it can only be thought of primarily as a symbol of terror.

Confederate flag supporters have argued for years that everyone should understand them. But black Southerners have tolerated something most of them consider intolerable for a century-and-a-half.

That’s time enough for understanding.

Understand this: Imagine your great-grandfather was a slave. Imagine your great-grandfather was lynched. Imagine your grandfather was forced to drink from a separate fountain. Imagine your father or mother was murdered by a deranged man with the Confederate flag all over his website.

Imagine these kinds of horrors were your American heritage. Imagine every time you saw a Confederate flag it reminded you of this.

Now imagine being told you don’t understand what the flag “really” means.

It’s an insult.

I care about moving beyond groupthink where right and left stop dehumanizing people more than I care about a flag. I care about white and black Southerners and Americans coming together, as we’ve seen on the streets of Charleston, more than I care about a flag. I’d like to see more coming together.

We will have a future that can be so much better than what a lot of Southern and American heritage represents, but only if we stop thinking of each other as separate camps constantly at war. We can only improve to the degree that we begin viewing one another not as enemies to be attacked but brothers to be loved.

Dylann Roof reminds us how hate destroys. The families of those he murdered remind us of the love we’re capable of.

The Confederate flag will always be a roadblock to the betterment of our natures. Let’s take it down so that we might all rise up.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/06/22/the-southern-avenger-repents-i-was-wrong-about-the-confederate-flag.html

[asurfaholic]

But the question is whether or not you can force someone else to take the flag down if they choose to fly it, wear it, tattoo it personally..

I believe people have the right to express what they want, and offended people should say what they want but forcibly taking down someone's symbolic expressions would be a severe violation of first amendment rights.

[phill4paul]

Jack wants back into politics. To do that you have to go with the direction the political wind is blowing.

[The Northbreather]

Why can't anyone ever understand individual responsibility.

This is definitely about a fucked up individual..

[wizardwatson]

God forgives Dylann? Really?

No repent no forgive. And repentance doesn't necessarily save you from the judgment.

But the families lack of biblical knowledge doesn't surprise me. Currently an hour into the Sunday service youtube and haven't heard a word about OBEYING anything or REPENTING for anything. Just victimhood and only scripture he read was "God is on our side" Psalm 46 and a bunch of "Lordy, Lordy" crap.

AME is another false Christian church. And if God allowing the shooter in there wasn't sign enough, now the gay marriage pushing, drone gangster atheist, Obama is going to eulogize the abortion-supporting-Hillary-supporting dead pastor.


As to Southern Avenger's newfound repentance for being a racist whitey, he can pander all he wants. I prefer milquetoast believers in truth and liberty out themselves as political yoyo's. I hope all the rest fall like dominos too.

Let everyone show their true colors.

Dylann wanted to start a race war and America obeyed like the spineless self-glorifying hand-holding pansies filled with hate and vanity that they are.

[enhanced_deficit]

A 14-year-old girl at a pool party isn’t a “thug” who deserves abuse. She’s a child. Decent people should view her as such.

Well said. Decency the key word here.

Now what is SA's view on US flag?
If family members/supporters of children killed by dgp's drone attacks also wanted removal of US flag, will US flags be disappeared from tax payers funded poles?

http://i.guim.co.uk/static/w-620/h--/q-95/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2013/12/31/1388519770946/42a8baee-e4ee-4dee-b70b-a53a2c2705a0-620x372.jpeg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Hv5F5G2rPjY/UTjs9RJw1OI/AAAAAAAANYY/M0ZV407FSVQ/s1600/droneC1.PNG


Sunday, November 11, 2012

No Drones Wisconsin

No Drones: Lars explains the upside down American flag



http://nodroneswisconsin.blogspot.co...side-down.html






Bill ‏@DefendWallSt
#BlackLivesMatter protesters and their children setting American flags on fire in #McKinney Texas
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CHBHVPnWQAAm6O-.jpg (https://twitter.com/DefendWallSt/status/608064439045234689/photo/1)
Retweets 114
5:13 PM - 8 Jun 2015


http://toprightnewscom.c.presscdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/flag.jpg

[UWDude]

I always liked the southern avenger.

[Sola_Fide]

Good for Jack. I agree. A libertarian stands against slavery in every regsard.

[dannno]

Good for Jack. I agree. A libertarian stands against slavery in every regsard.

Well, as we are discussing on the other thread, slavery would have probably ended in the south soon anyway. The Civil War wasn't about slavery, and a much greater longterm tyranny was inflicted on the entire country due to the results of the Civil War. Many people see it as a symbol of freedom from central authority and nothing to do with slavery, so you don't have to be a neo-confederate and support slavery.

[anaconda]

Why can't anyone ever understand individual responsibility.

This is definitely about a fucked up individual..

I don't even want to read the article.

[anaconda]

Well, as we are discussing on the other thread, slavery would have probably ended in the south soon anyway. The Civil War wasn't about slavery, and a much greater longterm tyranny was inflicted on the entire country due to the results of the Civil War. Many people see it as a symbol of freedom from central authority and nothing to do with slavery, so you don't have to be a neo-confederate and support slavery.

Well said, and shame on Rand's recent comments. I wouldn't blame any southerner for blowing Rand off in the ballot booth. And I live in the San Francisco Bay Area.

[ThePaleoLibertarian]

So not only is he caving in to the proglodytes, but he's pushing the white guilt narrative of the McKinney pool party incident... Let me know when Jack gets his balls back.

[Southron]

So what happened to this guy really? He hasn't gained the respect of the people who took him down and he lost all the respect of those who used to follow him.

[nobody's_hero]

Well it's a good thing S.C. took the flag down and killed racism once-and-for-all. I mean, who knew it was so easy?

Abe Lincoln got tangled in a war which split the country in half and ended with over half a million dead, but all he really had to do was go rounding up flags and *poof* racial harmony.

And yes I'm being facetious, and probably politically incorrect and in poor-taste so soon after the tragedy, but it's a symbol. Taking down a flag isn't going to do much to end racial violence. 99% percent (probably more) of the white people who admire, revere (or whatever you want to call it) the Confederate flag don't do so for racial motivations, and aren't going to commit racial violence regardless of whether it flies or not, and the remaining 1% (probably less) who are actual racists are simply going to be more incensed regarding its removal. I seriously doubt the flag motivated Dylan Roof to commit that heinous act. He did it because he already hated black people, and more apparent, he was a fucking psychopath.

Then there's also the theory that erasing or obscuring history might not be particularly wise for those wishing not to repeat it.

[CaptUSA]

Then there's also the theory that erasing or obscuring history might not be particularly wise for those wishing not to repeat it.

Of course, if your goal is to re-institute a subservient society, then it makes sense to erase all reminders of what that looked like before.

Once again, the media has taken an incident and used it for their devious game. First, they get the discussion to be about race - which is good for ratings, a great division tool and a perfect distraction. Next, they get to paint "the South" in a disparaging light - always good for those who like power. They also get to further dismiss the idea of a rebellion. At a time when people are starting to recognize the tyrannical government they have, it is useful to have the populace associate the symbol of the last rebellion with disgust.

I don't care about the flag one way or the other, but I do care about how and why this "controversy" is being managed. You can be sure of this: it isn't being done to create racial harmony.

[thoughtomator]

The North isn't comfortable with slavery unless you are supplying them with a lot of oil.

[otherone]

Well it's a good thing S.C. took the flag down and killed racism once-and-for-all. I mean, who knew it was so easy?


The sad part is that if they had just removed those flags the day before the killings, they might not have taken place.
At least now we can all rest easy that their removal prevented a massacre tomorrow.
We've all been led to believe that guns kill people, yet it was flags all along.

Oh...and life iS that easy...
https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=JN.OqIUdQ7Eo30dBimygo6cTQ&pid=15.1&P=0
see? EASY!

[fisharmor]

We've known for 3 years he does whatever Rand is doing.

[fisharmor]

Good for Jack. I agree. A libertarian stands against slavery in every regsard.

I am a libertarian, a Christian, and I am very much not against slavery simply because of what it is.

I can read, I know what the text of the 13th amendment says, and unlike what seems like everyone else, I know that slavery was never banned outright in the US.

[otherone]

I am a libertarian, a Christian, and I am very much not against slavery simply because of what it is.

I can read, I know what the text of the 13th amendment says, and unlike what seems like everyone else, I know that slavery was never banned outright in the US.

Three felonies a day.
https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=JN.erf0RXdchWJmGeYx54s1ng&pid=15.1&P=0

[nobody's_hero]

Of course, if your goal is to re-institute a subservient society, then it makes sense to erase all reminders of what that looked like before.

I'm glad someone else understands this line of thought.

If you're gonna take down the flag, you might as well destroy every relic civil war cannon on every battlefield park in the U.S. Fort Sumter needs to be demolished. etc etc. But then again, you'd also need to demolish every statue or rename every library named after Abolitionists, etc etc. I mean, if you're going to destroy every remnant of the Confederacy or slavery, then what exactly were these anti-slavery people fighting against? See? It wouldn't make sense.

But I think people are overblowing the racism thing. Roof was a psychopath, plain and simple. The fact that he was a racist should be an afterthought considering you first have to arrive at the conclusion that it's just not fucking normal to sit through a bible study meeting waiting to kill people, period. But to hear the media tell it, it's more like the guy's worst characteristic was that he was a racist, and he just happened to kill 9 people.

Being a racist is bad, being a killer is bad, but, um, if I had to prioritize the two . . . um, yeah.

[phill4paul]

I'm glad someone else understands this line of thought.

If you're gonna take down the flag, you might as well destroy every relic civil war cannon on every battlefield park in the U.S. Fort Sumter needs to be demolished. etc etc. But then again, you'd also need to demolish every statue or rename every library named after Abolitionists, etc etc. I mean, if you're going to destroy every remnant of the Confederacy or slavery, then what exactly were these anti-slavery people fighting against? See? It wouldn't make sense.

But I think people are overblowing the racism thing. Roof was a psychopath, plain and simple. The fact that he was a racist should be an afterthought considering you first have to arrive at the conclusion that it's just not fucking normal to sit through a bible study meeting waiting to kill people, period. But to hear the media tell it, it's more like the guy's worst characteristic was that he was a racist, and he just happened to kill 9 people.

Being a racist is bad, being a killer is bad, but, um, if I had to prioritize the two . . . um, yeah.

The National Park Service has asked it's store's to quit selling the flag. At Civil War memorial sites. WTF? Really?

"So, children, here we see the flag of the Union of the North which fought against the Confed...ummm, some bad people, ummm, racists from the Sou...ummm, somewhere."

[William Tell]

So what happened to this guy really? He hasn't gained the respect of the people who took him down and he lost all the respect of those who used to follow him.

It seems to me Jack has lost all independent thought, and that he is now nothing more than a parrot of whatever Rand Paul says. Don't get me wrong, I support Rand, but I don't have much respect for Jack if he can't think for himself. I used to think Jack Hunter was cool, he sounds like a wimp now.

[Mr.NoSmile]

Well, as we are discussing on the other thread, slavery would have probably ended in the south soon anyway. The Civil War wasn't about slavery, and a much greater longterm tyranny was inflicted on the entire country due to the results of the Civil War.

I needed a good laugh this morning.

[William R]

Can you blame him?? He's trying to save his career. But he should know better. The Confederate flag is based on the Scottish National flag which is based on the Saint Andrews' cross. St Andrew was crucified on a large X because he felt he wasn't worthy to be crucified on the same type of cross as Jesus. Today St Andrew is the Patron Saint of Russia and Scotland.

[AuH20]

How do you go from Southern Avenger to this in a very short time? I smell a rat.

[William Tell]

Can you blame him?? He's trying to save his career. But he should know better.

He was the Southern Avenger though, this was his career. Sure, he can do whatever he wants. But this is like Babe Ruth saying Baseball sucks, and people who like Baseball are morons.

Jack used to be a fire breathing paleoconservative, now he's a whimpering political Shih Tzu.

[Peace&Freedom]

I'm glad someone else understands this line of thought.

But I think people are overblowing the racism thing. Roof was a psychopath, plain and simple. The fact that he was a racist should be an afterthought considering you first have to arrive at the conclusion that it's just not fucking normal to sit through a bible study meeting waiting to kill people, period. But to hear the media tell it, it's more like the guy's worst characteristic was that he was a racist, and he just happened to kill 9 people.

Being a racist is bad, being a killer is bad, but, um, if I had to prioritize the two . . . um, yeah.

And I would maintain Roof was neither psychopath nor racist, but government coordinated or shepherded (likely through SSRI drugs). He was a disturbed, but high functioning asset. Severe psychos are unpredictable and undisciplined---they are not able to plan a massacre for over six months, patiently sit through a service, carefully identify the pastor main target, efficiently reload the weapon several times, leave in likewise smooth manner, drive for a day without other incident, and react calmly to their arrest.

These are the earmarks of very controlled, premediated behavior, which if there is a federal/civil rights trial will be pointed out by the prosecutors, as in other "psycho" shooting cases. Yet the media coverage always follows the "he was out of control" model of framing the matter to the public, so it won't ask the wrong questions. Nor does a "racist" have lots of black friends in his Facebook account, liberal Democrat family members, and so on. So the other way to account for all this "non-normal" behavior is to recognize it's a trained person who was activated to perform a false flag op.

[Sam I am]

He was the Southern Avenger though, this was his career. Sure, he can do whatever he wants. But this is like Babe Ruth saying Baseball sucks, and people who like Baseball are morons.

Jack used to be a fire breathing paleoconservative, now he's a whimpering political Shih Tzu.

I don't think that he's really changed that much. I've just watched a couple of his recent videos, and his overall tone is about the same as it was 8 years ago. The only major way that he's changed that I know of is his superficial identification with the confederacy.

[Acala]

I am a secessionist and I like the article.

Being a symbol, the Confederate flag means different things to different people. There is no question that to many it represents slavery and racism. There is no denying this. And any advocate of freedom and humanity must oppose slavery and racism. But when it comes to the meaning of the Confederate flag, there is a baby floating around in that filthy bathwater: the idea that the only legitimate form of government is by consent of the governed and when people choose to dissolve their bonds to a government and institute a new one, they should be free to do so peacefully. That is a crucial issue that goes to the very foundation of a free society. So how do we pour out the bathwater and save the baby? I don't know. Maybe we can't. It is likely that the Confederate flag can't be rescued from the taint of slavery and racism any more than the swastika can be returned to its pre-Nazi usage. Is it worth trying to fight for it? Or is it better to sacrifice it on the alter of love as the Southern Avenger does in this article? I tend to think the later.

[Acala]

But the question is whether or not you can force someone else to take the flag down if they choose to fly it, wear it, tattoo it personally..

I believe people have the right to express what they want, and offended people should say what they want but forcibly taking down someone's symbolic expressions would be a severe violation of first amendment rights.

I don't think anyone is seriously talking about a law against the symbol. They are talking about the State government flying it on public property. Big difference.

[phill4paul]

I don't think anyone is seriously talking about a law against the symbol. They are talking about the State government flying it on public property. Big difference.

Just for general information...

The flag was removed from the dome of the S.C. State House in 2000. It was placed upon the State House grounds at a Civil-War memorial site. In 2001 an African American memorial site was added to these same grounds.

[Acala]

Just for general information...

The flag was removed from the dome of the S.C. State House in 2000. It was placed upon the State House grounds at a Civil-War memorial site. In 2001 an African American memorial site was added to these same grounds.

Yup. I had an office in Columbia in the late 90's and could see the flag on the dome (then under renovation) from my window. The memorial to the Civil War dead on the grounds features a beautiful poem on a large plaque. The poem is heartbreaking. I can't find it online at the moment . . .

[fisharmor]

Three felonies a day.
https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=JN.erf0RXdchWJmGeYx54s1ng&pid=15.1&P=0

Not my point.

Slavery was never abolished in its entirety in the US. Slavery is still 100% legal in this country under certain circumstances.

I disagree with large swaths of the constitution. But the actual idea which actually is encapsulated in the actual 13th amendment, as written, is a good idea.
That idea is that slavery should be perfectly acceptable in certain circumstances.

[Southron]

Can you blame him?? He's trying to save his career.

He had a good following until he repudiated everything he was.

Now he is just another libertarian in a sea of libertarian commentators and columnists.

[Ender]

Well, as we are discussing on the other thread, slavery would have probably ended in the south soon anyway. The Civil War wasn't about slavery, and a much greater longterm tyranny was inflicted on the entire country due to the results of the Civil War. Many people see it as a symbol of freedom from central authority and nothing to do with slavery, so you don't have to be a neo-confederate and support slavery.

Exactly.

The Civil War was never a "civil war"- it was a War Between the States that was over money; the old taxation w/o representation stuff. the South was being regulated to death to support the North and they wanted out. Slavery was ending all over the world and was due to come to an end in America.

[AuH20]

Exactly.

The Civil War was never a "civil war"- it was a War Between the States that was over money; the old taxation w/o representation stuff. the South was being regulated to death to support the North and they wanted out. Slavery was ending all over the world and was due to come to an end in America.

The Northern industrialists wanted to finance their infrastructure improvements on the back of the South, who were extremely vulnerable to the high tariff rates. That's basically what occurred. Not too dissimilar to what we are encountering today with the various trade agreements and SCOTUSCare.

[fisharmor]

Exactly.

The Civil War was never a "civil war"- it was a War Between the States that was over money; the old taxation w/o representation stuff. the South was being regulated to death to support the North and they wanted out. Slavery was ending all over the world and was due to come to an end in America.

Detractors like to point out that negro slavery was explicitly protected in the Confederate constitution. However the wording of article 4 section 3, taken as a whole, is clearly nothing more than a reiteration of the Dred Scott decision, enshrined in their constitution.
But the telling thing is that the Article V convention of the CSA constitution calls for a convention to convene at the request of three states.
Not two-thirds of anything - three states. That's it.
All it would have taken to change that part of their constitution is rabblerousing from three states.

Confederate slavery might have lasted into the 1890s if they were left alone. Maybe it would have lasted into the 20th century. But life would have improved for negro slaves throughout that time as industrialization took the south. One has to consider that they weren't just slaves, they were assets, and their owners would have treated them as assets.

So we have to ask hard and honest questions as to whether or not earlier freedom and continually crappy living conditions for the next century was a good tradeoff for the alternate scenario, which would have had another 50 years potentially of people who are technically slaves but who would have to have been educated to keep up with industry, who would eventually would have been freed without so much ill will toward them lingering on to this very day.

That's the part I'm surprised nobody ever mentions about the war between the states. Was it begun over slavery? Everyone believes that regardless of its falsehood. But select few seem to recognize the historical fact that the war left a scar on the United States which, given the fact that we're even talking about this, has not healed.

I submit that letting the secessionists figure out their own course would have left slavery where it is today, later, sure, but without that scar.

[AuH20]

Detractors like to point out that negro slavery was explicitly protected in the Confederate constitution. However the wording of article 4 section 3, taken as a whole, is clearly nothing more than a reiteration of the Dred Scott decision, enshrined in their constitution.
But the telling thing is that the Article V convention of the CSA constitution calls for a convention to convene at the request of three states.
Not two-thirds of anything - three states. That's it.
All it would have taken to change that part of their constitution is rabblerousing from three states.

Confederate slavery might have lasted into the 1890s if they were left alone. Maybe it would have lasted into the 20th century. But life would have improved for negro slaves throughout that time as industrialization took the south. One has to consider that they weren't just slaves, they were assets, and their owners would have treated them as assets.

So we have to ask hard and honest questions as to whether or not earlier freedom and continually crappy living conditions for the next century was a good tradeoff for the alternate scenario, which would have had another 50 years potentially of people who are technically slaves but who would have to have been educated to keep up with industry, who would eventually would have been freed without so much ill will toward them lingering on to this very day.

That's the part I'm surprised nobody ever mentions about the war between the states. Was it begun over slavery? Everyone believes that regardless of its falsehood. But select few seem to recognize the historical fact that the war left a scar on the United States which, given the fact that we're even talking about this, has not healed.

I submit that letting the secessionists figure out their own course would have left slavery where it is today, later, sure, but without that scar.

You really wonder what the country would look like without Reconstruction. That was the moment the bad guys got their foot in the door and haven't looked back since.

[Warrior_of_Freedom]

talk more about flags and less about TPP plz our shadowy overlords are really good at this distraction thing

[Acala]

Exactly.

The Civil War was never a "civil war"- it was a War Between the States that was over money; the old taxation w/o representation stuff. the South was being regulated to death to support the North and they wanted out. Slavery was ending all over the world and was due to come to an end in America.



As with most things in life, it's more complicated than the soundbites and historical summaries. There is no single answer to the question "what was the Civil War about?"

If you asked the individual soldiers who fought, you would have had a thousand different answers. Some fought over the issue of slavery, but not very many on either side. Some fought over issues of political rights, tariffs and the Constitution. But not very many. Some fought to preserve the Union. But not very many. I would hazard to guess that, as in most wars, the soldiers who did the fighting did so out of some combination of pride, fear of being labeled a coward, lust for glory, money, adventure, hatred of the other side, comfort of joining a team doing something big, forced conscription, and so on. The men who were doing the shooting and doing the dying were no more doing it over the issue of taxation than they were over the issue of slavery.

But there were other people with other interests that pushed the war. Northern industrialists and Southern farmers were in conflict about slavery and tariffs - the evidence of this is in the Confederate Constitution.

And politicians were, as usual, manipulating, pandering, and seeking power without regard to principles.

So nobody can really say "The Civil War was about X." But you CAN say that it was not all about slavery. No rational historian would argue that point.

[AuH20]

Lincoln was for secession before he was against it................ It's amazing what a little prodding by some wealthy friends can do.

In a speech in 1848 on the Mexican War, Abraham Lincoln said, "...Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up, and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better-- This is a most valuable, -- a most sacred right -- a right, which we hope and belive, is to liberate the world..."

[Warrior_of_Freedom]

Lincoln was for secession before he was against it................ It's amazing what a little prodding by some wealthy friends can do.

In a speech in 1848 on the Mexican War, Abraham Lincoln said, "...Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up, and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better-- This is a most valuable, -- a most sacred right -- a right, which we hope and belive, is to liberate the world..."

this only applies when it's part of America's interest. Just like how Crimea 90%+ voting to secede to Russia is somehow Putin invading Ukraine.

[phill4paul]

As with most things in life, it's more complicated than the soundbites and historical summaries. There is no single answer to the question "what was the Civil War about?"

If you asked the individual soldiers who fought, you would have had a thousand different answers. Some fought over the issue of slavery, but not very many on either side. Some fought over issues of political rights, tariffs and the Constitution. But not very many. Some fought to preserve the Union. But not very many. I would hazard to guess that, as in most wars, the soldiers who did the fighting did so out of some combination of pride, fear of being labeled a coward, lust for glory, money, adventure, hatred of the other side, comfort of joining a team doing something big, forced conscription, and so on. The men who were doing the shooting and doing the dying were no more doing it over the issue of taxation than they were over the issue of slavery.

But there were other people with other interests that pushed the war. Northern industrialists and Southern farmers were in conflict about slavery and tariffs - the evidence of this is in the Confederate Constitution.

And politicians were, as usual, manipulating, pandering, and seeking power without regard to principles.

So nobody can really say "The Civil War was about X." But you CAN say that it was not all about slavery. No rational historian would argue that point.

Yep, “rich man’s war and poor man’s fight."

[devil21]

Can you blame him?? He's trying to save his career. But he should know better. The Confederate flag is based on the Scottish National flag which is based on the Saint Andrews' cross. St Andrew was crucified on a large X because he felt he wasn't worthy to be crucified on the same type of cross as Jesus. Today St Andrew is the Patron Saint of Russia and Scotland.

Hmm, interesting points. Two countries that have historically been thorns in the side of the ruling elite...

[dannno]

Well said, and shame on Rand's recent comments. I wouldn't blame any southerner for blowing Rand off in the ballot booth. And I live in the San Francisco Bay Area.

I disagree with Rand's statement but I think he made the politically expedient move - hopefully people will get over it and he won't lose too many votes. It's not like he is encouraging the Federal Govt. to limit speech or anything.

[PaleoPaul]

If people won't vote for Rand over a damn flag, then they deserve an establishment Republican nominee, and come 2017, an establishment Republican or Hitlary as President.

[ThePaleoLibertarian]

Good for Jack. I agree. A libertarian stands against slavery in every regsard.
Jack Hunter is not a libertarian.

[LibForestPaul]

Sounds like preparing for next stage...race war. Gotta keep the peons fighting amongst themselves.

[William R]

He was the Southern Avenger though, this was his career. Sure, he can do whatever he wants. But this is like Babe Ruth saying Baseball sucks, and people who like Baseball are morons.

Jack used to be a fire breathing paleoconservative, now he's a whimpering political Shih Tzu.

Well he got a taste of big politics by being on Rand Paul's staff and decided he liked it I suspect. That said he's now changed his webzine RARE and in order to post you have to have a Facebook account. I used to be a semi regular poster there, but since I don't have an account with Facebook I guess those days are over. I suspect he didn't want a bunch of anonymous people raking him over the coals for his 180 on the Confederate flag.

[Tywysog Cymru]

Jack Hunter also has been standing up for minorities lately. I'm so glad that he's come around on this issue as well!

[wizardwatson]

Jack Hunter also has been standing up for minorities lately. I'm so glad that he's come around on this issue as well!

Obviously, THIS thread needs my little creation more than any other.

http://i.imgur.com/KWlFdxx.jpg

[TaftFan]

Anyone been following him and his page (Rare Liberty) on Facebook? Talk about beating a dead horse.

[TaftFan]

Looks like Tom Woods is getting annoyed:

One of the worst things to me is the spectacle of people who conveniently "change their minds" when the heat is on, and then look down their noses at those who hold the same views they themselves held 10 minutes earlier. Then they win praise and huzzahs. Well, you can stick your media praise you know where, because you'll never see me crawling to beg for it.
At some point you have to decide to be a man, and quit pandering and apologizing. (This is not a reference to Rand Paul, in case you thought it was.)

[wizardwatson]

Looks like Tom Woods is getting annoyed:
One of the worst things to me is the spectacle of people who conveniently "change their minds" when the heat is on, and then look down their noses at those who hold the same views they themselves held 10 minutes earlier. Then they win praise and huzzahs. Well, you can stick your media praise you know where, because you'll never see me crawling to beg for it.
At some point you have to decide to be a man, and quit pandering and apologizing. (This is not a reference to Rand Paul, in case you thought it was.)

Haha. Are the parentheses your addition or Tom's? It's a shame they're necessary.

[TaftFan]

Haha. Are the parentheses your addition or Tom's? It's a shame they're necessary.

His.

[Chieppa1]

Anyone been following him and his page (Rare Liberty) on Facebook? Talk about beating a dead horse.

He spends a good amount a time telling his followers what to think. Like to remember to insult and dismiss "conspiracy theorists".

[kahless]

One of the worst things to me is the spectacle of people who conveniently "change their minds" when the heat is on, and then look down their noses at those who hold the same views they themselves held 10 minutes earlier. Then they win praise and huzzahs. Well, you can stick your media praise you know where, because you'll never see me crawling to beg for it.
At some point you have to decide to be a man, and quit pandering and apologizing. (This is not a reference to Rand Paul, in case you thought it was.)

Too bad there are not more people like Tom in the media. This is so typical, cuckold cowards.

[Acala]

A wise general picks their battlefields. A foolish general allows thier enemies to do so. A wise General also yields territory when it will put them in a better position to win the war.

[AuH20]

A wise general picks their battlefields. A foolish general allows thier enemies to do so. A wise General also yields territory when it will put them in a better position to win the war.

They are coming over the ramparts and people are doing nothing. That's all I see.

[NewRightLibertarian]

They are coming over the ramparts and people are doing nothing. That's all I see.

Time to take measures into our hands. There is no other possible way for keeping our freedom.

[AuH20]

Time to take measures into our hands. There is no other possible way for keeping our freedom.

The people who think that they can just keep their head down and get along are deeply mistaken. The goalposts are continually being shifted, until one day you'll be living in a 6x6 box.

[Acala]

They are coming over the ramparts and people are doing nothing. That's all I see.

The government of South Carolina taking down a flag is equivalent to an enemy "coming over the ramparts"? I'm not seeing it.

[nobody's_hero]

The government of South Carolina taking down a flag is equivalent to an enemy "coming over the ramparts"? I'm not seeing it.

It's more like they're crawling slowly over the ramparts.

Political correctness has replaced common sense slowly, imperceptibly to the point that even the proverbial frog in boiling water is looking at us saying "WTF is wrong with you people?"

I say that the overwhelming purge going on now (not just flags at state capitol buildings, but museums, toys, church windows, and grave sites, etc) may cause at least a few frogs to jump out. The rest are just gonna stick around in the pot waiting for some moment to 'pick the right battles'.

I've been waiting 28 years so far. We keep waiting and they'll be looking for a place to move our graves.

[phill4paul]

The government of South Carolina taking down a flag is equivalent to an enemy "coming over the ramparts"? I'm not seeing it.

What about disinterring graves in Memphis. It won't stop at flags unless it is stopped at flags.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?477361-Memphis-Mayor-Wants-To-Dig-up-the-Grave-of-Confederate-General-Nathan-Bedford-Forrest

[Aratus]

"Anti Federalist" in a very recent posting brought up the old story about
KING CANUTE and the sea rising by degrees... its either a metaphor
http://allpoetry.com/King-Canute or more than just an allegory.

King Canute --------- by William Makepeace Thackeray


KING CANUTE was weary hearted; he had reigned for years a score,
Battling, struggling, pushing, fighting, killing much and robbing more;
And he thought upon his actions, walking by the wild sea-shore.

'Twixt the Chancellor and Bishop walked the King with steps sedate,
Chamberlains and grooms came after, silversticks and goldsticks great,
Chaplains, aides-de-camp, and pages,—all the officers of state.

Sliding after like his shadow, pausing when he chose to pause,
If a frown his face contracted, straight the courtiers dropped their jaws;
If to laugh the king was minded, out they burst in loud hee-haws.

But that day a something vexed him, that was clear to old and young:
Thrice his Grace had yawned at table, when his favorite gleemen sung,
Once the Queen would have consoled him, but he bade her hold her tongue.

"Something ails my gracious master," cried the Keeper of the Seal.
"Sure, my lord, it is the lampreys served to dinner, or the veal?"
"Psha!" exclaimed the angry monarch, "Keeper, 'tis not that I feel.

"'Tis the HEART, and not the dinner, fool, that doth my rest impair:
Can a king be great as I am, prithee, and yet know no care?
Oh, I'm sick, and tired, and weary."—Some one cried, "The King's arm-chair!"

Then towards the lackeys turning, quick my Lord the Keeper nodded,
Straight the King's great chair was brought him, by two footmen able-bodied;
Languidly he sank into it: it was comfortably wadded.

"Leading on my fierce companions," cried he, "over storm and brine,
I have fought and I have conquered! Where was glory like to mine?"
Loudly all the courtiers echoed: "Where is glory like to thine?"

"What avail me all my kingdoms? Weary am I now and old;
Those fair sons I have begotten, long to see me dead and cold;
Would I were, and quiet buried, underneath the silent mould!

"Oh, remorse, the writhing serpent! at my bosom tears and bites;
Horrid, horrid things I look on, though I put out all the lights;
Ghosts of ghastly recollections troop about my bed at nights.

"Cities burning, convents blazing, red with sacrilegious fires;
Mothers weeping, virgins screaming vainly for their slaughtered sires.—"
Such a tender conscience," cries the Bishop, "every one admires.

"But for such unpleasant bygones, cease, my gracious lord, to search,
They're forgotten and forgiven by our Holy Mother Church;
Never, never does she leave her benefactors in the lurch.

"Look! the land is crowned with minsters, which your Grace's bounty raised;
Abbeys filled with holy men, where you and Heaven are daily praised:
YOU, my lord, to think of dying? on my conscience I'm amazed!"

"Nay, I feel," replied King Canute, "that my end is drawing near."
"Don't say so," exclaimed the courtiers (striving each to squeeze a tear).
"Sure your Grace is strong and lusty, and may live this fifty year."

"Live these fifty years!" the Bishop roared, with actions made to suit.
"Are you mad, my good Lord Keeper, thus to speak of King Canute!
Men have lived a thousand years, and sure his Majesty will do't.

"Adam, Enoch, Lamech, Cainan, Mahaleel, Methusela,
Lived nine hundred years apiece, and mayn't the King as well as they?"
"Fervently," exclaimed the Keeper, "fervently I trust he may."

"HE to die?" resumed the Bishop. He a mortal like to US?
Death was not for him intended, though communis omnibus:
Keeper, you are irreligious, for to talk and cavil thus.

"With his wondrous skill in healing ne'er a doctor can compete,
Loathsome lepers, if he touch them, start up clean upon their feet;
Surely he could raise the dead up, did his Highness think it meet.

"Did not once the Jewish captain stay the sun upon the hill,
And, the while he slew the foemen, bid the silver moon stand still?
So, no doubt, could gracious Canute, if it were his sacred will."

"Might I stay the sun above us, good sir Bishop?" Canute cried;
"Could I bid the silver moon to pause upon her heavenly ride?
If the moon obeys my orders, sure I can command the tide.

"Will the advancing waves obey me, Bishop, if I make the sign?"
Said the Bishop, bowing lowly, "Land and sea, my lord, are thine."
Canute turned towards the ocean—"Back!" he said, "thou foaming brine.

"From the sacred shore I stand on, I command thee to retreat;
Venture not, thou stormy rebel, to approach thy master's seat:
Ocean, be thou still! I bid thee come not nearer to my feet!"

But the sullen ocean answered with a louder, deeper roar,
And the rapid waves drew nearer, falling sounding on the shore;
Back the Keeper and the Bishop, back the king and courtiers bore.

And he sternly bade them never more to kneel to human clay,
But alone to praise and worship That which earth and seas obey:
And his golden crown of empire never wore he from that day.
King Canute is dead and gone: Parasites exist alway.


© by owner. Added by volunteers for educational purposes and provided at no charge. Dmca
Here (William Makepeace) Thackeray is retelling the legend of Canute, an early King of Britain.
Canute after a long and hectic reign was bemoaning his weakness and age whilst walking on the
sea-shore one day. His courtiers in an effort to curry favour praised him as an omnipotent personage
with God-like powers.
(The Jewish captain is a reference to the Old Testament warrior Joshua - see Joshua chapter 10, verses 12-13.).
The king shows them they are wrong by telling the tide to turn back which, of course, it does not do.
The final line says that the king is dead and gone but idiotic sycophantic courtiers still remain.

[Warrior_of_Freedom]

They can take away the confederate flag after they stop buying products made with slave labor from China and other countries. 99% of those idiots are probably fingering their iPhones as we speak. Btw I don't personally know anyone who actually gives 1/10th of a shit about this "issue" so I can only assume it's being manufactured by the news.

[LibertyEagle]

Jack just lost any respect I had for him.

[LibForestPaul]

It's more like they're crawling slowly over the ramparts.

Political correctness has replaced common sense slowly, imperceptibly to the point that even the proverbial frog in boiling water is looking at us saying "WTF is wrong with you people?"

I say that the overwhelming purge going on now (not just flags at state capitol buildings, but museums, toys, church windows, and grave sites, etc) may cause at least a few frogs to jump out. The rest are just gonna stick around in the pot waiting for some moment to 'pick the right battles'.

I've been waiting 28 years so far. We keep waiting and they'll be looking for a place to move our graves.

I do not care about this country or its people to pick any battles. Maybe when I am 70 and have nothing to lose.
Right, now, just looking for a nice slave plantation to work on.
How to be a house slave:101.

[nobody's_hero]

I do not care about this country or its people to pick any battles. Maybe when I am 70 and have nothing to lose.
Right, now, just looking for a nice slave plantation to work on.
How to be a house slave:101.

Haha, I'm waiting for this 'collapse' that Ron Paul promised me. I've already got my survival camp planned out and I'm reading everyone else's posts trying to decide which among you I think worthy to share my food. The rest can eat each other.

(I'm joking)




(sort of)

[Ronin Truth]

WANTED!

"NEW" SOUTHERN AVENGER

BALLS ARE REQUIRED!

[Origanalist]

How do you go from Southern Avenger to this in a very short time? I smell a rat.

I thought he neutered himself quite some time ago.

[William Tell]

I thought he neutered himself quite some time ago.

It has become more apparent.

[UWDude]

Detractors like to point out that negro slavery was explicitly protected in the Confederate constitution. However the wording of article 4 section 3, taken as a whole, is clearly nothing more than a reiteration of the Dred Scott decision, enshrined in their constitution.
But the telling thing is that the Article V convention of the CSA constitution calls for a convention to convene at the request of three states.
Not two-thirds of anything - three states. That's it.
All it would have taken to change that part of their constitution is rabblerousing from three states.

No, it would taken a lot more than that, it would have taken those three states convincing the rest. Good luck with that.


Confederate slavery might have lasted into the 1890s if they were left alone. Maybe it would have lasted into the 20th century. But life would have improved for negro slaves throughout that time as industrialization took the south. One has to consider that they weren't just slaves, they were assets, and their owners would have treated them as assets.

They treated them like assets the whole time. Before the importation of slaves was banned, you should read about how these "assets" were treated on slave ships. The inhumanity of it is truly sickening.


So we have to ask hard and honest questions as to whether or not earlier freedom and continually crappy living conditions for the next century was a good tradeoff for the alternate scenario, which would have had another 50 years potentially of people who are technically slaves but who would have to have been educated to keep up with industry, who would eventually would have been freed without so much ill will toward them lingering on to this very day.

You got to be kidding me to say that 50 more years of slavery would have been better. It would have just put black people behind 50 more years. I am sure they still would have had to go through jim crow. It would not have gone over easily, and the elite would not just give up their "assets" or the sake of a better CSA. Yeah, life for black people was bad after the civil war too. It's not the Civil War's fault that most white people hated or looked down on black people, nor is it the civil war's fault now that some white people still hate black people.


That's the part I'm surprised nobody ever mentions about the war between the states. Was it begun over slavery? Everyone believes that regardless of its falsehood. But select few seem to recognize the historical fact that the war left a scar on the United States which, given the fact that we're even talking about this, has not healed.

It was about slavery, when you get right down to it. Yes, the civil war was about slavery.

And to black people, damn straight it was about slavery. There was certainly no doubt about it back then. Confederate army in town? You are a slave. Union army comes to town? You are free.

And the confederate flag? Means slavery to them.


You really wonder what the country would look like without Reconstruction.

For black people, reconstruction was one of the better times of their history. All that was reversed in 50 years, to where the 1920's and 1930's were the worst, post-slavery.

Freedom in Texas against the Mexican government, meant freedom to own slaves, because Mexico had outlawed it long before the US.
Freedom in the CSA meant the freedom to own slaves too.



And seriously, I knew a couple of kids who liked the confederate flag in high school.

They were racists. Not a coincidence.

[Southron]

Part 1 of his 4 part anti-Southern video series.
http://rare.us/story/why-the-confederate-flag-just-doesnt-fly-in-todays-america/