FBI Agent: The CIA Could Have Stopped 9/11

[twomp]

No this is not a "truther" conspiracy. See below:


James Bernazzani, who took charge of the FBI contingent at the CTC in Langley, Virginia, soon after 9/11 attacks, recalled an encounter with Rossini. “Mark walks into my office one day at Langley and says, ‘Something's been really bothering me.’ He tells me the whole story" about how he and Miller had been prohibited from telling anyone about the likely presence of at least one Al-Qaeda terrorist, al-Mihdhar, in the U.S. the previous July, Bernazzani says.

“I said, Mark, if it ain't on paper, it never happened. He said, ‘I got it.’ After a few minutes he came back and showed it to me.” Miller, as it turned out, had made a copy of the warning cable he had prepared for FBI headquarters.

“I looked at it and I said, ‘Holy friggin’ shit,’” Bernazzani recalls. “I said, ‘This would've stopped this thing.’ I called up Assistant Director Pat D’Amuro,” who was in charge of the FBI’s investigation into the 9/11 attacks. “I said I needed to see him right away. He said, ‘This better be worth it.’ I assured him it was. I drove straight to FBI headquarters. It took me only about 15 minutes to get there. I probably set some speed records.”

Bernazzani, who retired in 2008 with a Presidential Award for Meritorious Service, says D’Amuro “looks at it, he looks at me, and he says, ‘I’ll take care of it.’”

Bernazzani returned to CIA headquarters. “I told Mark it was done, it was in the right hands,” Bernazzani says. Later, when congressional investigators came looking for documents related to the 9/11 attacks, “the FBI couldn't find it in their computers,” he says. “If they did, they didn't tell me.”

Read the whole thing here:

http://www.newsweek.com/saudi-arabia-911-cia-344693?piano_d=1

[acptulsa]

“I said, Mark, if it ain't on paper, it never happened.

Then he saw it on paper, and turned that paper over to a superior without ever even taking a photocopy of it.

Therefore, it never happened.

[phill4paul]

There was knowledge and there was cover-up that there was knowledge. Debate what brought the buildings down all you want, but our government had actionabble knowledge and refused to act. No government official has received any form of punishment to this date. Not even a written reprimand.

[Zippyjuan]

So we could arrest people for what they might do. Note that most of the 9/11 terrorists were in the country legally and had not previously committed any crimes.

http://www.fairus.org/issue/identity-and-immigration-status-of-9-11-terrorists


According to authorities, all of the hijackers who committed the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks were foreigners. All of them entered the country legally on a temporary visa, mostly tourist visas with entry permits for six months. Although four of them attended flight school in the United States, only one is known to have entered on an appropriate visa for such study, and one entered on an F-1 student visa. Besides the four pilots, all but one of the terrorists entered the United States only once and had been in the country for only three to five months before the attacks.

The four pilots had been in the United States for extended periods, although none was a legal permanent resident. Some had received more than one temporary visa, most of which were currently valid on September 11, but at least three of them had fallen out of status and were, therefore, in the United States illegally.

The terrorists had obtained U.S. identification that was used for boarding flights in the form of Florida, Virginia, California and New Jersey driver's licenses/ID cards. One of the terrorists, Mohamed Atta, was detained in Florida for driving without a license, but subsequently obtained one. Thirteen of the terrorists had Florida driver's licenses or ID cards, seven had Virginia driver's licenses, at least two had California licenses and two had New Jersey driver's licenses.

http://www.fairus.org/issue/identity-and-immigration-status-of-9-11-terrorists


Khalid al-Mihdhar (or Almidhar) — Saudi Arabian

Obtained U.S. tourist visa in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia in April 1999.
In Malaysia in Jan. 2000. Followed by Malaysian agents tipped off by CIA (see Wash. Post 2/3/02).
Arrived at Los Angeles Jan. 15, 2000 with Nawaf al-Hamzi on B-2 tourist visa from Malaysia.
Lived in San Diego, where he took flight training in May 2000 with Nawaf al-Hamzi.
Left U.S. in June 2000 and obtained new B-1 visa in Saudi Arabia. According to the 2/04 Staff Report of the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks, his application falsely indicated he had not previously traveled to the United States and contained “suspicious indicators.” It also revealed that he had more than one passport.
Returned July 4, 2001, lived in New York.
Put on the Watch List for terrorists in August 2001 after entering U.S. last time.
In legal nonimmigrant status at the time of the attack.
Had a Virginia driver's license.

[twomp]

So we could arrest people for what they might do. Note that most of the 9/11 terrorists were in the country legally and had not previously committed any crimes.

Who said anything about arresting them. How about just monitoring them? You know like how the government monitors my grandma's emails to her church? There was probable cause. Nice try at spinning again buddy.

To summarize. FBI notices an AL QAEDA member enters the United States in July. Sends a memo to warn the government. CIA makes that memo disappear.

Zippyjuan jumps in for some reason and talks about arresting them and they didn't have the probable cause to arrest them. Does not mention anything about just monitoring them and doing some investigative work. Just talks about arresting them.

[timosman]

So we could arrest people for what they might do. Note that most of the 9/11 terrorists were in the country legally and had not previously committed any crimes.

We do this all the time nowadays. Have you seen the details of terrorist attacks prevented by the 3 letter agencies ?

[Zippyjuan]

Who said anything about arresting them. How about just monitoring them? You know like how the government monitors my grandma's emails to her church? There was probable cause. Nice try at spinning again buddy.

To summarize. FBI notices an AL QAEDA member enters the United States in July. Sends a memo to warn the government. CIA makes that memo disappear.

Zippyjuan jumps in for some reason and talks about arresting them and they didn't have the probable cause to arrest them. Does not mention anything about just monitoring them and doing some investigative work. Just talks about arresting them.

So you favor monitoring people who have committed no crimes. Would such monitoring have prevented 9/11? At what point before the hijacking could all 19 have been rounded up and on what grounds?

[twomp]

So you favor monitoring people who have committed no crimes. Would such monitoring have prevented 9/11? At what point before the hijacking could all 19 have been rounded up and on what grounds?

So you are in favor of NOT monitoring KNOWN AL QAEDA agents? Get a warrant and do it. Why is that so hard for you to understand? Did they have something more important to do?

[twomp]

The original story that was published. The article in my OP is updated because a THIRD person has come forward to corroborate this story.

The Inside Information That Could Have Stopped 9/11


Rossini is well placed to do just that. He’s been at the center of one of the enduring mysteries of 9/11: Why the CIA refused to share information with the FBI (or any other agency) about the arrival of at least two well-known Al-Qaeda operatives in the United States in 2000, even though the spy agency had been tracking them closely for years.

That the CIA did block him and Doug Miller, a fellow FBI agent assigned to the “Alec Station,” the cover name for CIA’s Osama bin Laden unit, from notifying bureau headquarters about the terrorists has been told before, most notably in a 2009 Nova documentary on PBS, “The Spy Factory.” Rossini and Miller related how they learned earlier from the CIA that one of the terrorists (and future hijacker), Khalid al-Mihdhar, had multi-entry visas on a Saudi passport to enter the United States. When Miller drafted a report for FBI headquarters, a CIA manager in the top-secret unit told him to hold off. Incredulous, Miller and Rossini had to back down. The station’s rules prohibited them from talking to anyone outside their top-secret group.

http://www.newsweek.com/2015/01/23/information-could-have-stopped-911-299148.html

[phill4paul]

So you favor monitoring people who have committed no crimes. Would such monitoring have prevented 9/11? At what point before the hijacking could all 19 have been rounded up and on what grounds?

Do you mean foreigners with a background based on foreign intelligence that they may cause harm? Even a hint? I have no problem if they hold their hand from the time they enter the country until the time they leave.


If San Diego FBI agent Steven Butler had known what the CIA knew about possible terror attacks, he may have had the best chance to stop the Sept. 11, 2001, hijackers, investigators told ABCNEWS.

Butler had two of the hijackers, Nawaf Alhamzi and Khalid Al-Midhar, under his nose for some 18 months, but neither he, nor anyone in the FBI, was warned by the CIA.

The CIA had tracked Alhamzi and Al-Midhar to California after the men were photographed at an al Qaeda planning meeting in Malaysia in January 2000 where, it was later determined, terrorists were plotting the attack on the USS Cole.

Alhamzi and Al-Midhar then moved to San Diego, where the FBI could have monitored them. The two future hijackers actually rented rooms in the house of one of Butler's informants, Abdussattar Shaikh, a leader at the local mosque, who also helped get them a computer and a car.

"We know for a fact that that car was used to travel from San Diego to Phoenix, to meet up with Hani Hanjour …, who [was] another pilot who [was] taking flight training," said Jack Cloonan, a former FBI agent who is now an ABCNEWS consultant. "This is a window of opportunity you are seldom presented with."

Hanjour would end up with Alhamzi and Al-Midhar on American Airlines Flight 77, the jet that smashed into the Pentagon shortly after departing from Dulles airport outside Washington.

A government report on the Sept. 11 attacks, which was prepared by a joint House-Senate committee and released today, says the FBI's informant knew that Alhamzi and Al-Midhar were going to flight school in Arizona but never told his FBI handler, Butler, who was in the dark about the significance of the two men.

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=129563

Yeah, a bit of hand holding may have gone a long way.

[Zippyjuan]

At what point do you end monitoring and either arrest or deport them and the other 17- thereby preventing 9/11? Monitoring alone does not prevent the actions.

[phill4paul]

At what point do you end monitoring and either arrest or deport them and the other 17- thereby preventing 9/11? Monitoring alone does not prevent the actions.

Based on my article above...


The CIA had tracked Alhamzi and Al-Midhar to California after the men were photographed at an al Qaeda planning meeting in Malaysia in January 2000 where, it was later determined, terrorists were plotting the attack on the USS Cole.

As soon as they entered the country.

Edit: Unless, they wanted to surveil and look for a larger plot. In which case a tight reign should have been kept.

[twomp]

At what point do you end monitoring and either arrest or deport them and the other 17- thereby preventing 9/11? Monitoring alone does not prevent the actions.

If you are monitoring them, you arrest them at the point when they say, "hey lets fly airplanes into a building!" I know that's difficult for you to understand. Maybe try reading a bit slower?

[Zippyjuan]

Since you just said that, you should be arrested then if that is all it takes.

[Zippyjuan]

Based on my article above...



As soon as they entered the country.

Edit: Unless, they wanted to surveil and look for a larger plot. In which case a tight reign should have been kept.

Let's say they did stop them from re-entering the country. Does that prevent the remaining 17 from completing their task? Or somebody else from taking over for them?

[phill4paul]

Let's say they did stop them from re-entering the country. Does that prevent the remaining 17 from completing their task? Or somebody else from taking over for them?

You did notice the edit, or no? Certainly they should not have been able to board planes without an armed Air Marshal shadowing them.

[twomp]

Since you just said that, you should be arrested then if that is all it takes.

Nice try at spin again. I don't belong to a KNOWN TERRORIST group. You know how the FBI catches drug dealers? They do these things called investigations. In fact, I'm sure you aren't aware of this but FBI stands for Federal Bureau of INVESTIGATION! That means they INVESTIGATE stuff. Crazy thought right here, IF THE CIA had told the FBI that there was TWO KNOWN AL QAEDA operatives in the United States, they could have conducted what we Americans call an "investigation" which could have led them to a plot about terrorists flying a plane into a building.

BUT THE CIA prevented these guys from notifying the FBI. See how that works? Maybe I was wrong, you don't really know how to read?

[timosman]

You know how the FBI catches drug dealers? They do these things called investigations.

I thought they call their buddies at CIA, who actually deliver the drugs into the country, and obtain the list of distributors. /sarc

[phill4paul]

I thought they call their buddies at CIA, who actually deliver the drugs into the country, and obtain the list of distributors. /sarc


/sarc

:confused:

[twomp]

I thought they call their buddies at CIA, who actually deliver the drugs into the country, and obtain the list of distributors. /sarc

LOL! Good point! I stand corrected!

[Zippyjuan]

You did notice the edit, or no? Certainly they should not have been able to board planes without an armed Air Marshal shadowing them.

At the time of 9/11 there were 33 air marshals in the entire country- covering over 5,000 public airports (600 of those can handle planes with nine or more seats). Commercial airlines make about 30,000 domestic flights a day. Can't come close to covering that and shadow all potentially suspicious passengers. That gives you about one agent for every 1,000 flights. Assuming nobody has the day off.

http://www.businessinsider.com/5-ways-federal-air-marshals-have-changed-since-911-2013-12


The first change to the Federal Air Marshal Service occurred immediately after the attacks of 9/11. The U.S. had just 33 air marshals working in a full time capacity on 9/11, and in the immediate aftermath of the attacks the Bush Administration pushed for a massive and rapid expansion of the program. This included the hiring, training, and activation of 600 air marshals within one month and thousands more in the following months and years. The training of such a large number of air marshals was not an easy task.


And most of those were on international- not domestic routes. (same link):

The second major change to occur for Federal Air Marshal Service since 9/11 was the new focus of air marshal missions. Prior to 9/11, air marshal missions were primarily focused on international routes. Airline plots like Bojinka, and hijackings such as TWA Flight 847 and Kuwait Airways Flight 422, had steered the security program towards an international, “long arm” approach.



That leaves even fewer to tail our suspects.

[timosman]

At the time of 9/11 there were 33 air marshals in the entire country

any time you see the number 33 the BS detector should go off.

[Zippyjuan]

Why? Do you have an alternative number? What other numbers are "tip-offs"?

(according to Wiki Congress had authorized 50 but on 9/11 only 33 were filled) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Air_Marshal_Service

[phill4paul]

At the time of 9/11 there were 33 air marshals in the entire country- covering over 5,000 public airports (600 of those can handle planes with nine or more seats). Chicago O'Hare airport alone has over 2,000 takeoffs and landings a day. Can't come close to covering that and shadow all potentially suspicious passengers.

http://www.businessinsider.com/5-ways-federal-air-marshals-have-changed-since-911-2013-12

These two were known al-Queda. I'm sure one marshal could have been spared from the scatter shot approach of the service as a whole. Also, I am sure there were many FBI agents qualified to fly armed.

http://www.tsa.gov/about-tsa/law-enforcement-officers-flying-armed


The Office of Law Enforcement/Federal Air Marshal Service maintains oversight of the Law Enforcement Officers flying armed program under Title 49 Code of Federal Regulation (CFR) § 1544.219 Carriage of Accessible Weapons.

To qualify to fly armed, Federal Regulation states that an officer must meet the following basic requirements:

Be a Federal Law Enforcement Officer (LEO) or a full-time municipal, county, or state LEO who is a direct employee of a government agency.
Be sworn and commissioned to enforce criminal statutes or immigration statutes.
Be authorized by the employing agency to have the weapon in connection with assigned duties.
Have completed the training program, ‘‘Law Enforcement Officers Flying Armed.”
In addition to the above requirements, the officer must need to have the weapon accessible from the time he or she would otherwise check the weapon until the time it would be claimed after deplaning. The need to have the weapon accessible must be determined by the employing agency, department, or service and be based on one of the following:

The provision of protective duty, for instance, assigned to a principal or advance team, or on travel required to be prepared to engage in a protective function.
The conduct of a hazardous surveillance operation.
On official travel required to report to another location, armed and prepared for duty.
Employed as a Federal LEO, whether or not on official travel, and armed in accordance with an agency-wide policy governing that type of travel established by the employing agency by directive or policy statement.
Control of a prisoner, in accordance with Title 49 CFR § 1544.221, or an armed LEO on a round trip ticket returning from escorting, or traveling to pick up a prisoner. Please note: In 2014, the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) and the International Air Transportation Association (IATA) ruled that Conducted Energy Weapons (CEW), such as TASERs, are considered Hazardous Materials (HAZMAT) due to their chemical composition. These items are prohibited from carriage on board or in checked luggage on any aircraft.

An Air Marshall would not have necessarily been needed just co-ordination with the agency.

[Danke]

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/bukhari_hijackers.html

Planes, Hijackers
and Automobiles



Proof of Lies And Evidence Fabrication Against The Hijacker Suspects of 9-11.


Another Mysterious Plane Crash Victim?

On Sept 11th 2000, exactly one year before the Boeing planes crashed into the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, a much smaller plane crash occurred in Florida. Two small planes collided (20), one of the pilots (both of whom were killed) was a man named Amer Bukhari, who's name appeared on the passenger list of American Airlines Flight 11, the first plane to crash into the World Trade Center towers (5).

The FBI's initial investigation began, as you would expect, by searching the names on the flight manifests (or passenger lists) for possible suspects (4) - then attempting to trace their whereabouts and movements prior to Sept 11th. Around six suspects were chosen from the manifest and quickly investigated in the days immediately after the attacks. Here are their names:

* Mohamed Atta
* Adnan Bukhari (5)
* Ameer Bukhari
* Abdul Alomari
* Amer Kamfar

With the exception of Atta, who was supposedly receiving flight training at Huffman aviation, all of these people are (or were) Saudi Arabian pilots who resided in Vero Beach, Florida - in very close proximity to each other as follows:

* Abdul Alomari (and family) and Amer Kamfer lived at the same address. (1)
* Adnan Bukhari (and family) lived next door to Alomari
* Ameer Bukhari was listed under the same address as Adnan

Imagine the FBI's dismay when it turned out that Adnan Bukhari was still alive, Ameer Bukhari had died a year before and Abdul Rahman Alomari and Amer Kamfar were both still alive and living in Saudi Arabia. It doesn't take a massive leap of imagination to work out that at least four of the five people on this manifest (Flight 11) were using the names and identities of the people listed above.

(It is easy to speculate that Atta's identification was also stolen but this is beyond the scope of this article. You can read a bit more about Atta here.)

This poses a problem for our investigators - proving who was actually using these IDs is very difficult. It also creates the very difficult question: why did they have to steal so many IDs from pilots? Is it more likely to be someone trying to create the illusion that the hijackers flew the planes into the buildings?

Disappearing Pilots

As if to enhance the official story, Alomari (2) and Kamfar (3) left abruptly in the two weeks before the attack. Bukhari had sent his family home but was still in the country himself (25). Once again this would appear to be more than a coincidence in light of the fact that all their names were on the manifests. According to CNN (3):

Because Saudi Airlines is eliminating flight engineers from its three-member crews, Richie said the airline has in the past year sent flight engineers to Florida for pilot training. He said the program has ended for some of the engineers, suggesting that may explain why some have recently left the Vero Beach area.

Whoever really carried out the attack must have been carefully observing the movements of these men and knew they were heading home just before Sept 11th.

Lets make up a story...

It was reported that the two Bukharis hired a Nissan Altima at Logan airport and drove it to Portland Maine the day before the attacks (4). The car was found abandoned at the airport in Portland. In the morning they took a connecting flight (US Airways Flight 5930 at 6 a.m.) to Boston before boarding Flight 11.

As if by magic, this story suddenly changes. If you search the internet for Nissan Altima and Atta, you will now find it reported that Atta and Alomari were the ones who rented the car at Logan, drove to Portland and got the connecting flight to Boston. This story doesn't' really make sense anyway because a White Mitsubishi left at Logan was supposedly hired by Atta (4). Why would you rent a car, leave it in Logan airport, rent another car and leave that one in Portland?

Lets take a look at the evolving list of hijackers:


Original Hijacker Becomes New Hijacker
Mohamed Atta
Adnan Bukhari
Amer Bukhari
Abdul Alomari
Amer Kamfar Mohamed Atta
Waleed Alshehri
Wail Alshehri
Abdulaziz Alomari
Satam Al Suqami


Isn't it a little convenient that Satam Al Suqami's passport was found intact a few blocks away from the World Trade Centre?

It would appear that someone decided to get some new IDs sorted out which might not be so obviously stolen , though some of these identities are also in dispute.

The FBI Affidavit

This tiny little lie about the car has a knock-on effect on some of the other evidence.

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/atta/resources/documents/fbiaffidavit1.htm

This link has a scanned copy of the affidavit submitted by special agent James Lechner regarding several important areas:

* the contents of the Nissan Altima
* The contents of Atta's luggage which conveniently didn't make it onto his connecting flight
* the phone call made by a flight attendant in which she gave details of the hijackers seat numbers

We already know that Atta's connection to the Nissan Altima is a lie. If Atta actually boarded Flight 11 at Boston, without a connecting flight, then it would seem that the bags left in the airport may well also be a fabrication - part stolen, part invention. (Some of us have been saying this for a long time anyway...) Could we also conclude that the phone call made by the flight attendant might well also have been a lie?

A nice way of saying thank you..

http://www.osc.gov/documents/press/2001/pr01_25.htm

An employee of the FAA called James Hopkins decided to do his little bit to help out by searching an FAA database for the names Adnan Bukhari and Mohamed Atta. It showed that a man called Bukhari was trained in Aviation Security at the FAA Academy (Oklahoma) in 1991 and 1998. When he tried to report this to his superiors he ended up getting sacked. Thankfully he got his job back, but it just goes to show you what a sensitive issue these Bukharis can be...

Resources. Don't just believe it - do your own research.

1. http://special.scmp.com/aua/ZZZNPQCVJRC.html
2. http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2001/09/14/hijacker-profiles.htm
3. http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/13/flight.schools/
4. http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200109/13/eng20010913_80131.html
5. http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/2001-09-14/usw_nosuspect.asp Bukahris name on the manifest
6. http://ziggy.dreamland.net/wtc/cnn.com/cnn.com2001US0912investigation.terrorism.html
7. http://www.vcn.bc.ca/~dastow/tst10915.txt
8. http://www.portland.com/news/attack/011006terror.shtml
9. http://www.azstarnet.com/attack/investigation.html
10. http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/13/flight.schools/
11. http://www.tcpalm.com/tcp/pj_local_news/article/0,1651,TCP_1121_1407770,00.html
12. http://www.thehawkeye.com/features/911/Thursday/14.html
13. http://216.239.39.120/translate_c?hl=en&langpair=fr%7Cen&u=http://allafrica.com/stories/
200109210084.html - alive
14. http://www.poconorecord.com/report/wtc/39.htm - lived in same place as alomari
15. http://www.osc.gov/documents/press/2001/pr01_25.htm
16. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1542153.stm - the car found in Logan airport was linked to Atta and Al Shehhi. This would mean that these two drove directly to Boston airport and got on the plane. Who then are the two individuals who were photographed in Maine?
17. http://www.flightsafetyacademy.com/mistakes.htm not brothers - both from Florida same surname
18. http://www.flightsafetyacademy.com/mistakes.htm
19. http://www.heise.de/tp/english/inhalt/te/9607/1.html On September 11, 2000 (note the date), a Piper Cadet piloted by a Saudi named Ameer Bukhari collided in a fatal mid-air collision with a Piper Aztec. Bukhari was on his first solo flight from Vero Beach Airport where had been taking flight lessons from Flight Safety Academy.
20. http://www.tessier.com/2001/Life/09/13/bukhari/ details of Ameer Bukhari's plane crash
21. http://www.azstarnet.com/attack/investigation.html
22. http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/atta/resources/documents/fbiaffidavit1.htm
23. http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/WTC_Investigation011005.html
24. http://www.portland.com/news/attack/011006terror.shtml
25. http://www.sptimes.com/News/091401/State/Attack_suspects_blend.shtml
26. http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/specialnews/Terror/day4/2000h.htm

[Ronin Truth]

So I guess that makes the 9/11 inside job a LIHOP. :( :mad:

9/11? Cui Bono?

May we have our country back now, please?

If $40 BILLION annually was not enough for national security, how much more would have been required to prevent it?

[twomp]

If ZippyJuan were in charge of the CIA during that time and found out that 2 KNOWN AL QAEDA operatives had entered the country, he would have went to get some donuts. Maybe a walk in the park to look at some ducks? I mean why tell the FBI for, there is NOTHING they could have done to stop the attacks anyways.

ZippyJuan would be troubled by this but to soothe his mind, he would then go take a nap. Naps always help clear the conscious for people of ZippyJuan's age.

[acptulsa]

So you favor monitoring people who have committed no crimes. Would such monitoring have prevented 9/11? At what point before the hijacking could all 19 have been rounded up and on what grounds?

Um, Z3.0, there have been laws against conspiracy to commit murder on the books for centuries. Centuries.

No, if we're looking for a reason why the government, which admits it knew all about 9/11 prior to the fact, did not nip it in the bud, we're going to have to go back to the official 'Too Much Compartmentalization' theory. You know, the problem the DHS was supposed to fix, but hasn't.

Or find out the real reason.

[Zippyjuan]

Maybe we can take Ronin's suggestion and spend a few more billion on preventing future occurrances. We could hire more Air Marshals (33 obviously isn't enough). Maybe some big computers to track anybody who might know somebody who has a friend who might do something. Then we need more airport security. Maybe join up all enforcement under one department so we don't have that "compartmentalization" problem. Any other ideas?

[acptulsa]

Maybe we can take Ronin's suggestion and spend a few more billion on preventing future occurrances.

Um, yeah, that was the, 'Create a New Agency to Make the Thirteen Agencies that Gather Intelligence Play Nice Together' plan which led to the DHS. You know, the very agency that I just noted is failing to do that very thing.

And now that I see your edit, I see you're also blathering the original sales pitch for the TSA, another agency which has completely failed to perform as advertised, yet came with no express or implied warrantee at all.

[Zippyjuan]

A sales pitch on DHS was not my intent. We can spend every penny we have on intelligence and security. We can't prevent bad things from happening. That is what led to the Homeland Security Agency and the Patriot Act. Even had the CIA notice gone to the FBI, it likely would not have prevented 9/11. We can scare off the little guys but if somebody is seriously determined, the will find a way. The question is how much money and security we want to spend and how much freedom we give up to try to achieve that. I have raised the same argument on the illegal aliens issue. What level is "not enough" and what level is "too much"? That is a subject of great debate which cannot be answered. Some will say no cost is too high if it prevents even one incident.

Much of the thread was arguing that we could have done more to prevent it. More Air Marshals could have tracked them. More FBI could have investigated and tailed them. More this more that. That is what led to the Patriot Act.

[Ronin Truth]

A sales pitch on DHS was not my intent. We can spend every penny we have on intelligence and security. We can't prevent bad things from happening. That is what led to the Homeland Security Agency and the Patriot Act. Even had the CIA notice gone to the FBI, it likely would not have prevented 9/11. We can scare off the little guys but if somebody is seriously determined, the will find a way. The question is how much money and security we want to spend and how much freedom we give up to try to achieve that. I have raised the same argument on the illegal aliens issue. What level is "not enough" and what level is "too much"? That is a subject of great debate which cannot be answered. Some will say no cost is too high if it prevents even one incident.

Much of the thread was arguing that we could have done more to prevent it. More Air Marshals could have tracked them. More FBI could have investigated and tailed them. More this more that. That is what led to the Patriot Act.


https://www.google.com/search?q=US+pre+warned+of+9%2F11&hl=en&gbv=2&oq=US+pre+warned+of+9%2F11&gs_l=heirloom-serp.12...32532.33485.0.38938.2.2.0.0.0.0.156.296. 0j2.2.0....0...1ac.1.34.heirloom-serp..2.0.0.30bKCwNyDr8\

The Patriot Act, et al., were ALL on the agenda since at least even before the OKC bombing.

[euphemia]

So you favor monitoring people who have committed no crimes. Would such monitoring have prevented 9/11? At what point before the hijacking could all 19 have been rounded up and on what grounds?

They monitor me all the time. And because of these 19 murderers, they feel up my husband at the airport every time he wants to board a plane.

Someone who knew 9/11 was going to happen and didn't throw a big fat, old time, Southern style hissy fit to anyone who would listen should be in prison for treason and accessory to murder.

[Occam's Banana]

To summarize. FBI notices an AL QAEDA member enters the United States in July. Sends a memo to warn the government. CIA makes that memo disappear.

Well, now, to be fair, this kind of thing really is outside the FBI's portfolio. The FBI's job is to bust up terror plots that have been concocted by the FBI.

Busting up someone else's terror plot (be it the CIA's or Al Qaeda's or whomever's) is like "going offsides" and "pass interference" all rolled up into one ,,,

[phill4paul]

Much of the thread was arguing that we could have done more to prevent it. More Air Marshals could have tracked them. More FBI could have investigated and tailed them. More this more that. That is what led to the Patriot Act.

No. Much of the thread has argued that the means were in place. That there was actionable intelligence. Gathered from foreign sources through intel means of the time period, not post 9/11 all encompassing surveillance. That there were failures to act on and disseminate this knowledge. That no individuals that fell asleep while on guard duty were ever disciplined. That's what this thread has been about.
I'm sorry, Zip. You cannot re-write this thread to make it seem like those that are critical of the actions of that period are proponents of what we have gotten in the bargain. It just doesn't work that way.

[Anti Federalist]

Maybe we can take Ronin's suggestion and spend a few more billion on preventing future occurrances. We could hire more Air Marshals (33 obviously isn't enough). Maybe some big computers to track anybody who might know somebody who has a friend who might do something. Then we need more airport security. Maybe join up all enforcement under one department so we don't have that "compartmentalization" problem. Any other ideas?

C'mon...you're whistling past the graveyard here.

Government had actionable intent that they refused to act on, refused deliberately, so say us wacky conspiracy theorists.

Just another little piece of the puzzle.

The whole truth of 9/11 will come out.

But it will be after all of us are dead or too addled to be of any good.

And after it is too late from turning the country into the police state it has become.

And long after anybody cared about it.

[Anti Federalist]

No. Much of the thread has argued that the means were in place. That there was actionable intelligence. Gathered from foreign sources through intel means of the time period, not post 9/11 all encompassing surveillance. That there were failures to act on and disseminate this knowledge. That no individuals that fell asleep while on guard duty were ever disciplined. That's what this thread has been about.
I'm sorry, Zip. You cannot re-write this thread to make it seem like those that are critical of the actions of that period are proponents of what we have gotten in the bargain. It just doesn't work that way.

Nail meet hammer.

Hammer, Nail.

[Anti Federalist]

No. Much of the thread has argued that the means were in place. That there was actionable intelligence. Gathered from foreign sources through intel means of the time period, not post 9/11 all encompassing surveillance. That there were failures to act on and disseminate this knowledge. That no individuals that fell asleep while on guard duty were ever disciplined. That's what this thread has been about.
I'm sorry, Zip. You cannot re-write this thread to make it seem like those that are critical of the actions of that period are proponents of what we have gotten in the bargain. It just doesn't work that way.

Nail meet hammer.

Hammer, Nail.

[Weston White]

Concerning 9/11 every place you turn raises red flags:

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=130051
http://www.newsweek.com/alleged-hijackers-may-have-trained-us-bases-152495
http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=a091201passportfound

[thoughtomator]

Gosh, Pinhead is awfully interested in this thread. Must be getting close to some real truth here.

[Ronin Truth]

Coulda, woulda, shoulda, so who ordered the CIA NOT to do their job?

Cui bono?

[enhanced_deficit]

Any gov agency cannpt have 100% success rate especially when it comes to stopping things like WTC1/2/7 by policing alone as long as there are circumstances on the ground creating seemingly unlimited supply of arab,muslim,chiristian foot soldiers willing to give their lives for the Palestinian cause. Something is bound to slip even if America became a top down police state with zero civil liberties.
Only way CIA can ensure 100% success in stopping WTC1/2/7 would be by cutting off the source and completely disrupting supply of money/bombs from US to Israel that can be used for occupation of Palestinians. Can they do it currently? No because US Congress and voters/tax payers stand in their way.


Checking in for a flight has never been the same since 1967 (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?409735-Checking-in-for-a-flight-has-never-been-the-same-since-1967&)

9/11 was to punish U.S. for Israel policy: Philip Zelikow 9/11 Commission Exec. Dir. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHely2_KkC4&list=PLfrlsC1yJ2dRtvvzX47VwYbu6X-cQuvMM)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHel...VwYbu6X-cQuvMM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHel...VwYbu6X-cQuvMM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHely2_KkC4&list=PLfrlsC1yJ2dRtvvzX47VwYbu6X-cQuvMM)

[acptulsa]

Coulda, woulda, shoulda, so who ordered the CIA NOT to do their job?

Cui bono?

The same person who called off the Air Force...?

We know who that was.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/88/46_Dick_Cheney_3x4.jpg

[P3ter_Griffin]

Nice try at spin again. I don't belong to a KNOWN TERRORIST group. You know how the FBI catches drug dealers? They do these things called investigations. In fact, I'm sure you aren't aware of this but FBI stands for Federal Bureau of INVESTIGATION! That means they INVESTIGATE stuff. Crazy thought right here, IF THE CIA had told the FBI that there was TWO KNOWN AL QAEDA operatives in the United States, they could have conducted what we Americans call an "investigation" which could have led them to a plot about terrorists flying a plane into a building.

BUT THE CIA prevented these guys from notifying the FBI. See how that works? Maybe I was wrong, you don't really know how to read?

Under the system you are clamoring for you don't get to make that call. I think its pretty well documented that the government perceives liberty minded people as, at the very least, potential terrorists.

[P3ter_Griffin]

Armed pilots, not writing the future for the middle eastern-world, those are good ways to have prevented 9/11. The FBI and CIA? Not so much.

[enhanced_deficit]

Armed pilots, not writing the future for the middle eastern-world, those are good ways to have prevented 9/11. The FBI and CIA? Not so much.

It would significantly limit the risk.. in vast majority of cases provided pilot is not like this guy in which case risk would increase.

Plane crash in France, co-pilot 'hijacked Airbus' and 'deliberately killed' 150 people (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?471475-Plane-crash-in-France-co-pilot-hijacked-Airbus-and-deliberately-killed-150-people&)

[P3ter_Griffin]

It would significantly limit the risk.. in vast majority of cases provided pilot is not like this guy in which case risk would increase.

Plane crash in France, co-pilot 'hijacked Airbus' and 'deliberately killed' 150 people (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?471475-Plane-crash-in-France-co-pilot-hijacked-Airbus-and-deliberately-killed-150-people&)

Very true my friend. We could, after all, throw everyone in jail and we could all sleep well in our jail cells knowing we'll be safe.

[twomp]

Under the system you are clamoring for you don't get to make that call. I think its pretty well documented that the government perceives liberty minded people as, at the very least, potential terrorists.

The system I'm "clamoring" for. This system is common sense which might seem to elude you. If a KNOWN Al Qaeda operative enters the United States, he or she should be monitored. The fact that the FBI was not notified by the CIA should raise red flags that you don't seem to understand. The argument that "oh well, they couldn't have stopped them anyways" is a cop out. Someone in the CIA should be in jail for this. I can't believe how someone would argue against this. You act like a court wouldn't give the FBI a warrant to monitor 2 KNOWN AL Qaeda operatives.

[Zippyjuan]

We know he is a bad guy so we have to follow him everywhere.

How did you know he was a bad guy?

Because we have been following him. We thought he might do something bad some day. We only follow bad guys.

[timosman]

We know he is a bad guy so we have to follow him everywhere.

How did you know he was a bad guy?

Because we have been following him. We thought he might do something bad some day. We only follow bad guys.


If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him. - Cardinal Richelieu

but, but, but ..... I have nothing to hide .....

[twomp]

We know he is a bad guy so we have to follow him everywhere.

How did you know he was a bad guy?

Because we have been following him. We thought he might do something bad some day. We only follow bad guys.

Zippyjuan used to make sense when he posted but nowadays in his old age, he has resorted to the MSM tactics of repeating the same nonsense over and over again in hopes of it being accepted eventually. Zippyjuans "fair and balanced" analysis. Repeat it over and over and over and over....

[P3ter_Griffin]

The system I'm "clamoring" for. This system is common sense which might seem to elude you. If a KNOWN Al Qaeda operative enters the United States, he or she should be monitored. The fact that the FBI was not notified by the CIA should raise red flags that you don't seem to understand. The argument that "oh well, they couldn't have stopped them anyways" is a cop out. Someone in the CIA should be in jail for this. I can't believe how someone would argue against this. You act like a court wouldn't give the FBI a warrant to monitor 2 KNOWN AL Qaeda operatives.

I was commenting on your statement that 'I don't belong to a KNOWN TERRORIST group.'. According to the Reid's and Fienstien's you do though. So, should someone at the CIA be held liable for not spying on you if you were to commit an act of terrorism? If not, why do Reid and Fienstien not have a say in what a terrorist group is, and who does? Why are AlQueda members obvious individuals to conduct spying on, but 'right wing extremist' aren't? Common sense does not answer these questions.

[acptulsa]

I was commenting on your statement that 'I don't belong to a KNOWN TERRORIST group.'. According to the Reid's and Fienstien's you do though. So, should someone at the CIA be held liable for not spying on you if you were to commit an act of terrorism? If not, why do Reid and Fienstien not have a say in what a terrorist group is, and who does? Why are AlQueda members obvious individuals to conduct spying on, but 'right wing extremist' aren't? Common sense does not answer these questions.

No. But it is a recent phenomenon that saw us bending over backwards to be friendly enough to our alien visitors to the point where they have at least as much protection under the Constitution as we do. I surely see an attempt at nobility in that, but I see less common sense there.

[P3ter_Griffin]

No. But it is a recent phenomenon that saw us bending over backwards to be friendly enough to our alien visitors to the point where they have at least as much protection under the Constitution as we do. I surely see an attempt at nobility in that, but I see less common sense there.

I think the general reason to treat 'outsiders' differently is because of poor policies we have here. We have to regulate immigration because we have welfare, and we have to monitor muslims because we bomb their homeland. If we do this then we are masking the effects of our poor policy, making the poor policy palatable and longer lasting. We may not have individuals flying into the twin towers, but we would still be dictating the future for large populations. We may not have illegals flooding our schools, but we would still be initiating force when there was none. And so, without better reason to treat outsiders differently than to mask our own bad policy, why should we do so?

[Ronin Truth]

CIA Agent: The FBI could have stopped 9/11.

Me, the Cub Scouts could have stopped 9/11.

[euphemia]

I'm almost thinking that if someone knew that 9/11 was going to happen, and they did nothing to stop it, they should be in jail Someone was derelict in their duties and should be prosecuted.

[paleocon1]

why would the CIA stop something it helped plan?

[Ronin Truth]

why would the CIA stop something it helped plan?

Cover, distraction, diversion, disinfo, misinfo as in Al-CIA DUH, ISIS, general psyops, etc.

[twomp]

why would the CIA stop something it helped plan?

Good point! They sure did gain a lot of power after this didn't they?

[twomp]

I was commenting on your statement that 'I don't belong to a KNOWN TERRORIST group.'. According to the Reid's and Fienstien's you do though. So, should someone at the CIA be held liable for not spying on you if you were to commit an act of terrorism? If not, why do Reid and Fienstien not have a say in what a terrorist group is, and who does? Why are AlQueda members obvious individuals to conduct spying on, but 'right wing extremist' aren't? Common sense does not answer these questions.

Seems like you are the type of person that would let a convicted pedophile play with your children because you want to "keep an open mind" and believe they have been rehabilitated.

There is NOTHING wrong with getting a warrant to watch a KNOWN AL Qaeda operative. If a judge grants a warrant for the FBI to watch a "right wing extremist", I would tell the FBI to go for it too. I don't see why this common sense doesn't apply to you but oh well, it's like talking to a wall.

[TheGrinch]

We know he is a bad guy so we have to follow him everywhere.

How did you know he was a bad guy?

Because we have been following him. We thought he might do something bad some day. We only follow bad guys.

You have gone from a faux devils-advocate to just being an deliberately obtuse and obvious troll. You need to be banned before you waste anyone else's time.