Mitt Romney: Take Down the Confederate Flag Immediately

[AuH20]

Okay. After we take down the flag, we can ban the LDS too. How bout it Mitt?

https://twitter.com/MittRomney/status/612276050182049792


Take down the #ConfederateFlag at the SC Capitol. To many, it is a symbol of racial hatred. Remove it now to honor #Charleston victims.

[Ronin Truth]

MYOB Mitt! :p

[Warlord]

Romney is an idiot

[Brett85]

I don't see any reason not to take it down. There are too many libertarians that I've run into that still defend the Confederacy. In reality slavery is the antithesis to libertarianism, and there should be nothing but disgust and contempt for the Confederacy. I know that the North had their problems as well, but I see no reason to defend the Confederacy.

[William Tell]

Mitt Romney, the Yankee liberal.

[VIDEODROME]

I sometimes wonder why people really want to fly the Confederate flag or display it. I could maybe see displaying both flags together on Memorial Day for the sake of history and remembering the loss of life on both sides of the Civil War. That's about it.

Otherwise, I tend to associate it with redneck culture and some racism with that. I would be embarrassed to live in a state that still displayed the Confederate Flag in an official way.

[William Tell]

I sometimes wonder why people really want to fly the Confederate flag or display it. I could maybe see displaying both flags together on Memorial Day for the sake of history and remembering the loss of life on both sides of the Civil War. That's about it.

Otherwise, I tend to associate it with redneck culture and some racism with that. I would be embarrassed to live in a state that still displayed the Confederate Flag in an official way.
And you are not embarrassed by the flag of the Union?

[TheTexan]

I don't see any reason not to take it down. There are too many libertarians that I've run into that still defend the Confederacy. In reality slavery is the antithesis to libertarianism, and there should be nothing but disgust and contempt for the Confederacy. I know that the North had their problems as well, but I see no reason to defend the Confederacy.

Yes, people who defend the Confederacy are racist racists and should be shunned accordingly, as there is no other reason to defend the Confederacy than if you're a slavery-loving racist.

[TheTexan]

Sir President Abraham F. Lincoln, Freer of Slaves, Uniter of States, Hero to the Republic:

http://i467.photobucket.com/albums/rr35/arcadefire325/Abe-Lincoln-Riding-Grizzly-Bear-Holding-Gun.jpg

[VIDEODROME]

And you are not embarrassed by the flag of the Union?

In the context of this discussion where we are talking about formally displaying the Union Flag with the State Flag in front state capitol buildings, no. Like it or not, that Flag is just showing my state as being part of the United States even if the behavior of this nation sometimes makes you want to barf in your mouth a little when.

But why display a flag for a Confederacy that doesn't exist anymore? What is the state trying to say here going out of they're way to display a symbol connected with either Slavery or Secession?

Also, I'm partly biased here for some reason, but I just strongly connect this symbol rednecks. It just think it would be a good PR move for them to take down this flag.

[Carlybee]

I sometimes wonder why people really want to fly the Confederate flag or display it. I could maybe see displaying both flags together on Memorial Day for the sake of history and remembering the loss of life on both sides of the Civil War. That's about it.

Otherwise, I tend to associate it with redneck culture and some racism with that. I would be embarrassed to live in a state that still displayed the Confederate Flag in an official way.


Then by all means feel free to sig heil your American flag on a daily basis.

[Carlybee]

In the context of this discussion where we are talking about formally displaying the Union Flag with the State Flag in front state capitol buildings, no. Like it or not, that Flag is just showing my state as being part of the United States even if the behavior of this nation sometimes makes you want to barf in your mouth a little when.

But why display a flag for a Confederacy that doesn't exist anymore? What is the state trying to say here going out of they're way to display a symbol connected with either Slavery or Secession?

Also, I'm partly biased here for some reason, but I just strongly connect this symbol rednecks. It just think it would be a good PR move for them to take down this flag.


Slavery bad..nothing wrong with secession but hey thanks for referring to my entire ancestry that fought for the south as rednecks....they being descendants of those who defeated the British during the Revolution.

[VIDEODROME]

http://www.addictinginfo.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/stupid_confederate_flag.jpg

[Carlybee]

http://www.addictinginfo.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/stupid_confederate_flag.jpg


4264

[Carlybee]

It's a flag, stupid. No more offensive than having to serve a federal flag. If you are offended by symbols go to the line marked butthurt.


Banning the confederate flag confirms the assumption that every one from the south is going to go out and committ mass murder against blacks. The truth is, they do a pretty good job of murdering themselves in large quantities. (See crime in Chicago..any given day). It confirms the assumption that everyone in the South still supports slavery. You would be very hard pressed to find that many who don't think slavery was abhorrent. If flags represent violence or oppression, then Old Glory might have a bit to answer for as well. Is there an American flag on the side of war drones that kill thousands of innocent people around the world?

While what happened in SC is horrible, the fact that people are murdered in this country every day is rarely seen on the msm unless it serves to advance an agenda.

If you believe in states' rights, then this would be a states issue anyway.

First they came for the flags.....

[sparebulb]

Willard wants me and my people to feel extra bad about the Confederacy.

Fair enough.

Why doesn't Willard and his people take responsibility for the original 9/11, the Mountain Meadow Massacre?

Only the sound of crickets for 157 years now and counting.....

[William Tell]

Then by all means feel free to sig heil your American flag on a daily basis.
It was the American way....

http://forgottenhistoryblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/untitled-21.jpg

[Zippyjuan]

In the context of this discussion where we are talking about formally displaying the Union Flag with the State Flag in front state capitol buildings, no. Like it or not, that Flag is just showing my state as being part of the United States even if the behavior of this nation sometimes makes you want to barf in your mouth a little when.

But why display a flag for a Confederacy that doesn't exist anymore? What is the state trying to say here going out of they're way to display a symbol connected with either Slavery or Secession?

Also, I'm partly biased here for some reason, but I just strongly connect this symbol rednecks. It just think it would be a good PR move for them to take down this flag.

Maybe they should fly other flags from our history as well. Texas state house could fly the Mexican flag since most of the state used to be Mexico. New Orleans could fly the French flag. The colonial states could fly the British flag. Alaska the Russian flag. Florida the Spanish flag.

[Southron]

Hey look, another Yankee telling people in other states how to live! :rolleyes: Over 150 years and some things are still the same.

[William Tell]

Maybe they should fly other flags from our history as well. Texas state house could fly the Mexican flag since most of the state used to be Mexico. New Orleans could fly the French flag. The colonial states could fly the British flag. Alaska the Russian flag. Florida the Spanish flag.

Actually, Zippy, the welcome center in Texas flies the 6 main flags which flew over Texas. Including the Spanish, French, Mexican, Texan, Confederate, and United States flags.

The 1824 flag which represents the old Mexican Constitution is still popular with many Texas patriots.

[VIDEODROME]

It's a flag, stupid. No more offensive than having to serve a federal flag. If you are offended by symbols go to the line marked butthurt.


Banning the confederate flag confirms the assumption that every one from the south is going to go out and committ mass murder against blacks.

Just want to clarify that I don't support a State or Federal Ban on the freedom of speech for individuals to display this flag. As I read the Tweat, it seemed to just suggest that the state government take down their confederate flag from their capitol.

[Zippyjuan]

Actually, Zippy, the welcome center in Texas flies the 6 main flags which flew over Texas. Including the Spanish, French, Mexican, Texan, Confederate, and United States flags.

The 1824 Mexican flag which represents the old Mexican Constitution is still popular with many Texas patriots.

Interesting. Thanks for sharing.

[phill4paul]

http://www.veteranstoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/h_k_edgerton_5.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-1ObQgujQKiM/TWxR4C4EU0I/AAAAAAAAAMo/rss0vEoauD0/s1600/black+with+cs+flag.jpg

[William Tell]

https://scontent-dfw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/1538945_342272875914239_1464616334_n.jpg?oh=1b40e9 93ed8ce8a34ba45e14d26c4e86&oe=562FA4FE

[William Tell]

Born a slave in 1846, Collier served as a Confederate sharpshooter and cavalryman. Famed as a bear hunter, he guided Pres. Theodore Roosevelt on a a bear hunt near Onward MS in 1902. When Roosevelt refused to shoot a bear Collier had roped, cartoonists coined the term "Teddy Bear". Collier was buried here in Live Oak Cemetery in 1936.

https://scontent-dfw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/q81/p526x296/1536482_655719384489186_894436701_n.jpg?oh=f97758c c069c44df993182d975dba442&oe=55F2CD5A
(https://www.facebook.com/BlackConfederateSoldiers/photos/a.494468537280939.1073741826.494463197281473/655719384489186/?type=1)





https://www.facebook.com/BlackConfederateSoldiers/photos/a.494468537280939.1073741826.494463197281473/655719384489186/?type=1&theater

[phill4paul]

I'm by no means what you would call a Neo-Confederate. I don't attempt to rewrite history the way a lot of Southerners and Northerners do. I just study history and attempt to call it like I see it without bias. I have had numerous discussions with supposed "historians" online who refuse to do the same. These discussions always have the same context, people calling themselves historians who are very closed minded about that time period. The problem begins when someone looks at the 1800's through modern eyes.
First, let me say this, I do not condone slavery, I truly believe it was an evil thing. However, it was legal at the time. These modern eyed historians believe the war was fought over something that was legalized by the American government. Now a Neo-Confederate believes the war would have happened had slavery not been involved. That also is a ridiculous statement. Yet, there was more to that war than just black and white, good versus evil, there were lots of gray areas, plenty of good and evil on both sides. These modern day historians refuse to believe that money had anything to do with the war. They ignore other problems the nation had at the time besides slavery. It doesn't fit into their perfect American government ideals. They went to school as children and were brainwashed with the old stories of how our founding fathers and leaders never sin, etc, and they refuse to believe any differently.
Now, for their theory to work, they have to believe that the black race would never have supported the Confederacy. So they convince themselves that there were no black Confederate soldiers. Let's take a look at what I have learned in about five minutes of research and see what I've uncovered.

Negro Confederate pickets

The above drawing appeared in Harper's Weekly (A New York paper) in 1863 showing black Confederate pickets on guard duty as seen through a Federal officers field glasses during the war

It's true that the Confederate government didn't recognize black soldiers, yet there are many incidents to show that blacks served the army. One "historian" argued with me that they were merely cooks, valets, and therefore not soldiers. I used to work with a guy that is a Vietnam veteran, he was a cook during the conflict, but this "historian" considers him a soldier. Why? Because the Vietnam veteran has a piece of paper that states he was a soldier. You see here how people twist things to suit their own agenda.
Just how bad was it to be a slave during that time period? I did a conversion of what a thousand dollars (what a healthy slave cost in 1860) and it comes to 29,500 dollars in today's money. We've all seen the Hollywood movies (and we all know that movies never lie about history) of white slave owners beating and mistreating their slaves. There were without a doubt some mean slave owners just like there are bad husbands, fathers, and mothers today, but most people that spend that kind of money will not abuse what they've bought, but take good care of it.
The best way to learn what being a slave was like at the time is from the mouth of the enemy. United States Colonel John Beatty commanding the Third Ohio Infantry was posted in Murfreesboro, Tennessee and observed: "The poor whites are as poor as rot, and the rich are very rich. There is no substantial well-to-do middle class. The slaves are, in fact, the middle class here. They are not considered so good, of course, as their masters, but a great deal better than the white trash…The women sport flounces and the men canes…all are slaves.”
Later, during the Battle of Murfreesboro (Stones River for you Yankee's) we learn that Confederate Brigadier General St. John Liddell had a black bugler. Private John Berry of the Eighth Arkansas Infantry describes an incident with captured Federal soldiers: "Passing through the yard of a nice farmhouse, we captured some of the Federal outposts, who pleaded for mercy. General Liddell swore at them, telling them they were fine fellows, invading our country and then asking pardon. Old Jake, the bugler, whacked one of them over the head with his saber, saying, with an oath, 'You youst get home, den.'"
Another argument from the "historians" against black troops serving the Confederacy is that black men weren't allowed to carry weapons. Old Jake evidently was allowed to carry a saber. There is also the incident involving a black guard named Ben who carried a rifle. Ben was placed by Confederate Brigadier General William Mahone to guard surplus rations. When a white soldier approached and attempted to steal rations, Ben ordered him to halt. He ignored the command, so Ben fractured his skull with the rifle, killing the white Confederate soldier. The soldier's friends wanted to kill Ben, but General Mahone took up for Ben. In 1928, an amendment was added so that black Confederate's could collect a military pension.
Another black soldier is listed as fighting under Confederate Brigadier General James Holt Clanton at Greensport, Alabama. The black soldier named Griffin approached General Clanton and asked, "Where is Marse Batt?" Clanton pointed toward the Federal lines and said, "He is there dead." Griffin charged and recovered the white Confederate's body amid severe Federal fire. When he returned to Clanton's position, Clanton asked, "Is he dead?" Griffin replied, "I don't know. My mammy was his nurse and I'm older than he is. I promised to take care of him and bring him to her. I'm carrying him home now."
There was also the incident of a black man named Sam that went to Shiloh with his white best friend named Billy Patton. Sam was owned by Billy's father George Patton (who became governor of Alabama following the war). When Billy was killed during the first days fighting, Sam refused to leave the field without Billy's body. Sam found Billy's body and brought him all the way from Shiloh to Corinth and then back to Florence, Alabama. One story says that the Confederate army took the horse away from Sam in Corinth and Sam was forced to carry Billy's body home himself. Either way, Sam was treated as a hero for the remainder of his life by the Patton family.
There is a video on youtube of an ex black Confederate who says he's been to all the reunions of Confederate soldiers and has been treated the same as any other soldier. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVYLswFcI48


Image result for black confederates

A black Confederate soldier at a reunion

Here is a small list of Black Confederate soldiers that I have found with minimal trouble.

Griffin, First Alabama Cavalry, referred to as a soldier.

Dan Robertson, Company B, 35th Alabama Infantry, fifer owned by the Lagrange Military Institute.

Henry Adcock , John Brown, Alley Newton (cook), John Pride, Tom Pride, Anthony Steward, all of the 4th Tennessee Cavalry, and all free men.

Bill King (cook), Reuben Battle, Bob Battle, all of the 20th Tennessee Infantry, all free men.

Brunton Alexander, Sampson Alley, Harris Bruington, Jeff Bruington, Jo Bruington, Lafayett Bruington, Vincent Bruington, William Burgess, John Cummings, James Farley, James Fields, William Gibson, John Hale, James Harris, Rufus Harris, William Albans Harris, all of the 25th Tennessee Infantry and all free men.

Adam (cook), Lewis (cook), Solomon (cook) of the 3rd Mississippi Infantry, Adam and Lewis were slaves, Solomon was free.

Ben (guard) of the 16th Virginia Infantry, armed with a rifle.

Let the record speak for itself, although all those "historians" that refuse to believe the obvious will continue to ignore the evidence. It will not fit into their perfect little world of the holy north against the evil south.

http://trrcobb.blogspot.com/2015/03/the-argument-over-black-confederate.html

[phill4paul]

The Confederate Flag: Part 1


The Battle Flag

Nothing in this country causes more controversy today than for someone to display the Confederate Battle Flag in public. Recently, I attended the re-enactment of Confederate President Jefferson Davis in Montgomery, Alabama. Newspapers covering the event tried to twist the entire thing into something it wasn't. Why, you might ask? Because, controversy sells newspapers. I was recently listening to the Paul Finebaum talk radio show and he brought something to my attention I hadn't thought about before. With everyone getting the news free on the internet today, newspapers are going out of business. He made the statement that reporters must write stories that will attract attention if that means ignoring the truth.
I normally try and avoid discussing issues that involve controversy between two different races because no matter what you say, you end up being labeled a racist. I'm going out on a limb here and attempt a discussion without offending anyone. Hopefully, I won't end up regretting writing this blog.
I've never understood what the Confederate flag has to do with racism. The flag was used in battle to distinguish Confederate units from Federal units. It was never an official flag that represented the Confederate government, but represented military forces. It wasn't the only flag that flew over Confederate military forces.



The Trans-Mississippi Flag



Cleburne's Division Battle Flag



Polk's Corps Battle Flag

All three of the flags above flew over Confederate troops in battle, yet there is no controversy surrounding either of them. I drove around with a tag on my truck that was the Bonnie Blue Flag which was the first flag of the Confederacy. It remained on my truck for over ten years and no one complained about that flag. As a matter-of-fact, I was often asked why I had a Texas flag on my truck.
I've often heard that people hate the Confederate Battle Flag because the Ku Klux Klan often carried the flag. That argument doesn't make any sense. The Ku Klux Klan has carried the American Flag just as often as the Confederate Flag, yet no one complains about the American Flag.



KKK Marching in Washington in 1952

Today, the majority of Klan members are located in the northern states, particularly the state of Ohio. I love the Confederate Flag and racism has nothing to do with the reason I love that flag. I have numerous friends who are African American. One good friend named Larry told me he knew there wasn't a racist bone in my body. He understands that I just love history, but there is more to it than just history. Allow me to discuss this further and hopefully I won't come across as unpatriotic.

Today we honor American troops fighting in Iraq and we are called traitors if we don't support those troops. What are those troops doing in Iraq? It was proven that there were no weapons of mass destruction in that country. As I tell everyone who asks me what the American Civil War was fought over, all wars are fought for one reason and that reason is money. Our troops are in Iraq today for oil no matter how you try and justify them being there. We still honor the flag that sent them there, because they are dying everyday under that flag. The same can be said about the Confederate Flag. Good men died fighting under the Confederate Flag. Good men who owned no slaves and never fought to defend slavery. My Confederate ancestor in the 35th Alabama Infantry could barely afford shoes, much less another human. I'm not defending slavery here either, I think it is morally wrong and I would never attempt to own another human being.

Let me get back to the Davis Inauguration Re-enactment. Newspapers there interviewed local blacks about us re-enacting the event of 150 years ago. One NAACP leader stated that we were up there spreading ignorance. I'd never known until that day that every re-enactment which I consider a hobby is a means of spreading ignorance. I would like for that man to explain to me how a Civil War Re-enactment spreads ignorance. I talked to a black friend of mine before attending the re-enactment in Montgomery. I explained to him that the NAACP was discussing protesting us having the re-enactment and asked his opinion. He has strong feelings about slavery and what went on in the United States prior to the Civil War, but his reply was simple. He told me to go enjoy myself, that there was nothing wrong with a re-enactment.

Another woman was interviewed about the event and stated that she thought we were intentionally insulting black people by having the event during black history month. Of course, the reporter failed to mention that we didn't have the re-enactment just because it was black history month, but because we re-enact these events on the anniversary of the actual event. The inauguration of Davis occurred 150 years ago, long before February was designated black history month.



African American Lady who had a Confederate Ancestor

My wife took the above picture of an African American lady who marched in the parade. She has a black Confederate ancestor and she attended the event to honor the man as a soldier. When the reporter wrote his article, many who oppose the Confederate Flag commented that blacks were forced to fight for the Confederacy against their will. They said that not one black soldier fought willingly for the Confederacy. I suppose black Confederate veterans were forced to attend Confederate soldier reunions years after the war also.



Black Confederate Veterans at a reunion

I will go into more detail about the misunderstood flag and the facts in the next part. Again, I hope I'm not offending anyone, just making an attempt to get to the truth.

http://trrcobb.blogspot.com/2011/02/confederate-flag-part-1.html




The Confederate Flag: Part 2


The First Confederate National Flag

Another lie reported by the Montgomery reporter stated that there were more marchers than spectators because no one cared for the event. I guess it would have been too much trouble to check around and ask why. The men in charge of the parade decided it would be a nice gesture if they would invite the spectators present to march with the reenactors. My wife and children were among this group. It amazes me how the media twists stories to suit what they want.
You may wonder why newspaper reporters resort to stirring up controversy in their papers and I have the answer. This is a quote from an actual historian about present day reporters: "Newspapers are a thing of the past and they will stir up any controversy in order to sell a newspaper and save their jobs."



These men understand what the flag stands for

An African American friend of mine on Facebook understands what the flag meant. He was the president of the NAACP in Asheville, North Carolina and was forced out of office because he refused to declare the Confederate Flag as a racist symbol among other things. He supports the flag today and the following is a quote of what he believes: "The Civil War had almost nothing to do with the issue of slavery. Abraham Lincoln supported an amendment that would create permanent slavery, and five Northern states kept slavery until they were forced to abandon the institution, due to the 13th amendment. Even then, Delaware, a Northern loyalist state, refused to ratify the amendment. He believes that the South had a constitutional right of secession, arguing that not only was southern secession legal, it was justified. Outrageous tariffs drove the south into extreme poverty, and many unconstitutional actions of Abraham Lincoln lead to the secession of the Confederate States of America. H.K. Edgerton blames the North for the onslaught of racism in the twentieth century, pointing out that post-civil war poverty in the south, that lasted until post World War II lead to feelings of resentment, and resulted in the violent racism of the civil rights era. He points out that if the South had been allowed to go peacefully, both the United States and the Confederate States would have abandoned racism long before the 1900s, while keeping a booming trade alive between the industrial North, and Agricultural South."

We can figure out which flag should be hated for flying over slavery very easily by going through the history of slavery in this country. It is estimated that around 645,000 African's were shipped to the United States as slaves. The idea of slavery began with something called 'indentured service' which meant a person worked for another person until a certain amount of time. This was used for both races, black and white. In 1769, Spain abolished the use of American Indian slaves in its territories.
In 1789, slavery had been legalized in New York, Ohio, Connecticutt, New Jersey, and Deleware among states in the south. By 1821 all the northern states except Deleware had abolished slavery. Ironically, Deleware would not abolish slavery until the 13th Amendment was ratified by congress after the Civil War.
The United States outlawed the importation of slaves into the country in 1808. Anyone found guilty would be tried for piracy and sentenced to death. Only one man was ever executed in the United States for importing slaves. That man was Nathaniel Gordon of Maine. Since the practice of importing slaves into America was outlawed in 1808, guess which flag was flying at the time. The Confederate Battle Flag wasn't invented until the 1860's. That leaves only one flag.



The only flag in this country that ever allowed slaves to be imported

That is also the same flag that waged war on Native Americans and attempted to exterminate the race. I don't see that flag being denounced as racist. It seems that the political correct community decides it will rewrite history to suit their agenda. In the next couple of weeks I will write a blog on the true Abraham Lincoln and not the myth that school teachers and politically correct people try to cram down our throats today. I also plan on writing a few blogs to show that African Americans fought for the Confederate States during the war. Again, I hope I haven't offended anyone.

http://trrcobb.blogspot.com/2011/03/confederate-flag-part-2.html

[Tywysog Cymru]

I agree with Rod Dreher from the American Conservative:

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/down-with-the-confederate-flag/

[Zippyjuan]

Can we put up a rainbow LGBT flag instead?

[DisneyFan]

Thank you, Mitt, for saying this at a time when the party is already deeply divided. Now we're going to be fighting over this nonsense.

[AuH20]

Obama thinks the Confederate flag belongs in a museum:

http://www.infowars.com/obama-thinks-confederate-flag-belongs-in-a-museum/

I feel like buying a confederate flag now, just for the sake of defiance!

[Carlybee]

Can we put up a rainbow LGBT flag instead?

I'm sure we'll be forced to eventually.

[Ronin Truth]

FWIW, I still like the Gadsden flag too. :)

https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&hl=en&source=hp&q=gadsden+flag&gbv=2&oq=Gadsden&gs_l=img.1.1.0l10.2766.5813.0.9313.7.5.0.2.2.0.172 .842.0j5.5.0....0...1ac.1.34.img..0.7.920.EE5uCkae KWk

[Zippyjuan]

I'm sure we'll be forced to eventually.

So some would not like to see that flag over their state capital. Kinda like some don't care for a Confederate Flag flying there.

What if we just had state and national flags flying? You can fly whatever you want at your own property.

[Ronin Truth]

"Disobedience is the true foundation of liberty. The obedient must be slaves." ~ Henry David Thoreau

[Zippyjuan]

So some would not like to see that flag over their state capital. Kinda like some don't care for a Confederate Flag flying there.

What if we just had state and national flags flying? You can fly whatever you want at your own property.

No special treatment for any group but equality for all.

[Ronin Truth]

No special treatment for any group but equality for all.

Do you talk/argue/quote with yourself when you're not here?

[phill4paul]

No special treatment for any group but equality for all.

I, and others I know, don't care for the American flag and what it represents. What about my group? How about just state flags? Oh, but there are others that don't like state flags. What about their group?

[TheTexan]

I, and others I know, don't care for the American flag and what it represents. What about my group?

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/08/15/7e/08157e1aa2d3d4e9f2985305e3ed7893.jpg

[phill4paul]

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/08/15/7e/08157e1aa2d3d4e9f2985305e3ed7893.jpg

Can I do it without paying a penalty or filing the proper paperwork?

[TheTexan]

Can I do it without paying a penalty or filing the proper paperwork?

No. This will require $2350. You can make the check out to "USA".

[Carlybee]

So some would not like to see that flag over their state capital. Kinda like some don't care for a Confederate Flag flying there.

What if we just had state and national flags flying? You can fly whatever you want at your own property.


Then the people of SC need to contact their state reps and pressure them to remove it..not Mitt Romney or the Feds telling them they have to. Is that not how it generally works?

[sparebulb]

Willard wants me and my people to feel extra bad about the Confederacy.

Fair enough.

Why doesn't Willard and his people take responsibility for the original 9/11, the Mountain Meadow Massacre?

Only the sound of crickets for 157 years now and counting.....

Willard's flag is flying over the the pile of rocks that commemorates the atrocities perpetrated by Willard's ancestors. The flag must mean that some Americans did it, rather than a group of religious separatists and potential successionists.

http://mountainmeadowsmassacre.com/files/2014/05/mountain-meadows-massacre-memorial.jpg

How nice. Massacred by whom? Must of been those pesky Injuns.

http://www.rickety.us/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/Mountain_Meadows-Massacre_gravesite_memorial_dedication.jpg

[Anti Federalist]

Not a Confederate flag to be seen.

https://www.lewrockwell.com/assets/2001/04/klan1923.jpg

https://www.lewrockwell.com/assets/2001/04/klan1925.jpg

https://www.lewrockwell.com/assets/2001/04/klanpat.jpg

https://www.lewrockwell.com/assets/2001/04/klan1960.jpg

[Intoxiklown]

Here is my flag. Good damn luck getting it down though. In the interest if being fair, you should probably pack a lunch, and bring some crazy ass friends. This tat almost kept me out of the Army, but my recruiter (black) laughed, and told them, "Shit. All it ,means is he's a southern boy.". He then pointed out the American eagle, and it's wings being the stars and bars.....southern American.


http://i57.tinypic.com/25q6n1d.jpg

[enhanced_deficit]

Mitt Romney knows power of symbolism very well.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-QAo1MRFJ_1U/Tbxa9C6Fy-I/AAAAAAAACWA/zVAEhjY-pP4/s1600/Twitter+-+Romney+Lynch+2.JPG (http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CAcQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Flegalinsurrection.com%2F2011%2F04 %2Fsaturday-night-card-game-mitt-romney-gives-race-card-players-the-rope-with-which-to-hang-him%2F&ei=_vuFVereNIOwyAT55Jy4DA&bvm=bv.96339352,d.aWw&psig=AFQjCNGzUzesMtZM5sMaxmEg_WoVL0FA0A&ust=1434930548658210)

Romney suggests it's time to 'hang' Obama
www.nydailynews.com/.../mitt-romney-suggests-time-hang-pres...Daily (http://www.nydailynews.com/.../mitt-romney-suggests-time-hang-pres...Daily) News
Apr 30, 2011 - Mitt Romney suggests it's time to 'hang' President Obama during stop in ... going to have to hang the 'Obama Misery Index' around his neck.".

[DamianTV]

I vote we just take down Mitt Romney from opening his big mouth and uttering his violence provoking twaddlespeak.

[VIDEODROME]

Then the people of SC need to contact their state reps and pressure them to remove it..not Mitt Romney or the Feds telling them they have to. Is that not how it generally works?

Yes

[Origanalist]

http://www.addictinginfo.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/stupid_confederate_flag.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CH-G9pmUAAEurRj.jpg

[Origanalist]

I'm sure we'll be forced to eventually.

That day may be closer than you think.

[Origanalist]

Iv'e been following this on twitter and I have never seen a better example of mob mentality in my lifetime. I fully expect a lynching before this is over.

[Dianne]

Yeah, Mitt... It wasn't the psychotropic drugs, it was the confederate flag. Mitt, you're an idiot.

[69360]

FWIW, I still like the Gadsden flag too. :)

https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&hl=en&source=hp&q=gadsden+flag&gbv=2&oq=Gadsden&gs_l=img.1.1.0l10.2766.5813.0.9313.7.5.0.2.2.0.172 .842.0j5.5.0....0...1ac.1.34.img..0.7.920.EE5uCkae KWk

If you fly the Gadsden flag you are a domestic terrorist. :rolleyes:

If the south had won the civil war, would mitt be demanding no American flags be flown?

This is a states rights issue. If the people of SC want the flag they can have it.

[Brett85]

This is a states rights issue. If the people of SC want the flag they can have it.

I didn't hear Romney advocate passing a federal law forcing South Carolina to take down the Confederate flag. I think he was just giving his opinion that South Carolina should vote to take down the Confederate flag.

[Origanalist]

I didn't hear Romney advocate passing a federal law forcing South Carolina to take down the Confederate flag. I think he was just giving his opinion that South Carolina should vote to take down the Confederate flag.

I think DC should take down the stars and stripes. It represents much more evil than the stars and bars ever did.

[Origanalist]

Just my opinion.

[r3volution 3.0]

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/54-cts-Mzoo/maxresdefault.jpg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQmO-WfEkk4


I don't see any reason not to take it down. There are too many libertarians that I've run into that still defend the Confederacy. In reality slavery is the antithesis to libertarianism, and there should be nothing but disgust and contempt for the Confederacy. I know that the North had their problems as well, but I see no reason to defend the Confederacy.

You're way off my friend. It was our second war of independence (but we lost this one).

To understand the war as pro-slave South v. anti-slave North is to gravely misunderstand it.

See this thread (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?465331-Did-the-Confederacy-really-secede-over-quot-states-rights-quot&p=5817139&viewfull=1#post5817139).

[Uriel999]

http://www.pensapedia.com/wiki/City_of_Five_Flags

Pensacola a fantastic town I spent two years in...5 flags...I guess perhaps Pensacola should be nuked for flying so many flags expressing its rich and awesome history.

[69360]

I didn't hear Romney advocate passing a federal law forcing South Carolina to take down the Confederate flag. I think he was just giving his opinion that South Carolina should vote to take down the Confederate flag.

If he respected states rights, he as a political figure from another state wouldn't voice an opinion as he is not a SC resident.

[RonPaul4Prez2012]

Hey look, another Yankee telling people in other states how to live! :rolleyes: Over 150 years and some things are still the same.


true, many uneducated liberals who dont know what the flag stands for get brainwashed into thinking it has something to do with slavery.

http://www.trainweb.org/seaboard/FLAG/confederateflag.htm

[r3volution 3.0]

If he respected states rights, he as a political figure from another state wouldn't voice an opinion as he is not a SC resident.

As far as I'm concerned, Williard is free to say what he likes.

If he wants to express his enjoyment of orangutan S&M, for instance, that's just fine.

The problem, as I see it, is not that he lacks standing to speaking on this, but that what he's saying is fucking moronic.

...demonstrating a total lack of understanding of what actually happened.

Incidentally, for those sharing the mainstream view of the war, I suggest looking into (dis)Honest Abe's own views on race; you won't find them terribly enlightened. He wanted the slaves just free enough to be put on a boat and shipped back to Africa - literally. In many ways, the slave-holding Southerners had a more humane attitude toward the blacks. Jefferson Davis freed his slaves during the war and adopted several of the black slave children into his home. Do you think there were any blacks in the Lincoln White House? ...think again. And who knows that tens of thousands of blacks fought for the Confederacy, and were paid (yes, paid, not slaves) better than their Union counterparts in the O so enlightened North?

I'm more than sick of latter day Yankee moralizing about this.

[Pauls' Revere]

Willard wants me and my people to feel extra bad about the Confederacy.

Fair enough.

Why doesn't Willard and his people take responsibility for the original 9/11, the Mountain Meadow Massacre?

Only the sound of crickets for 157 years now and counting.....

Thanks for the history lesson:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Meadows_massacre

http://www.religioustolerance.org/lds_mass.htm

http://mountainmeadowsmassacre.com/

"The Mountain Meadows Massacre stands without a parallel amongst the crimes that stain the pages of American history. It was a crime committed without cause or justification of any kind to relieve it of its fearful character... When nearly exhausted from fatigue and thirst, [the men of the caravan] were approached by white men, with a flag of truce, and induced to surrender their arms, under the most solemn promises of protection. They were then murdered in cold blood." William Bishop, Attorney to John D. Lee. 2

[Warrior_of_Freedom]

The concept the confederate flag is a flag that represents racial hatred is a fallacy just like how the Nazi flag itself somehow symbolizes racial hatred. With this logic, the U.S. flag represents racial hatred because of the Japanese internment.

[Tywysog Cymru]

1860: Member of an anti-slavery party is elected President.
1861: Most of the slave states leave the union.

History is truly full of such strange coincidences!:rolleyes:

[rg17]

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/54-cts-Mzoo/maxresdefault.jpg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQmO-WfEkk4



You're way off my friend. It was our second war of independence (but we lost this one).

To understand the war as pro-slave South v. anti-slave North is to gravely misunderstand it.

See this thread (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?465331-Did-the-Confederacy-really-secede-over-quot-states-rights-quot&p=5817139&viewfull=1#post5817139).

Confederate anthem better than the US one.

[Badger Paul]

"Mitt Romney, the Yankee liberal."

Who near all Southern whites voted for. Maybe they should listen to him. They certainly did in 2012. And if it's only because he was a white Republican, then what does that tell you?

Enough is enough. The war is over. The North won. The ideals of the USA won out. You don't get to re-write history because you don't like the results. Lord knows the USA is hardly perfect but its the country we live and you make it better, not pine for a defeated memory because somehow you think it has "honor". So did the boys in blue and they won. Yes, the winners get to dictate terms. Deal with it.

[osan]

Romney is an idiot

Your gift of understatement is noted.

[osan]

I don't see any reason not to take it down.

Of course you don't.


There are too many libertarians that I've run into that still defend the Confederacy.

Funny, I think there are too many fools spouting off, sans any clue whatsoever.


In reality slavery is the antithesis to libertarianism

The implication here being that the Confederacy and the war were about slavery. FAIL.


and there should be nothing but disgust and contempt for the Confederacy


Because your fine statist self says so. Got it. Next.


I know that the North had their problems as well, but I see no reason to defend the Confederacy.

How magnanimous and broad-minded of you.

Posts like this tend to give smart people headaches.

[tod evans]

Something tells me that all this butthurt comes from the Tee-Vee because I'm not seeing it out here in the real world..

[pcosmar]

Romney is an idiot

But a very rich idiot.

[AuH20]

1860: Member of an anti-slavery party is elected President.
1861: Most of the slave states leave the union.

History is truly full of such strange coincidences!:rolleyes:

Most importantly the ratification of the Morrill Tariff. Like I routinely tell the sheep. Do you think Operation: Iraqi Freedom was about freeing the Iraqi people? The post Civil War rewriting was the same propaganda.

https://www.lewrockwell.com/2011/01/thomas-dilorenzo/more-lies-about-the-civil-war/



As I have written numerous times, in his first inaugural address Lincoln announced that it was his duty "to collect the duties and imposts," and then threatened "force," "invasion" and "bloodshed" (his exact words) in any state that refused to collect the federal tariff, the average rate of which had just been doubled two days earlier. He was not going to "back down" to tax protesters in South Carolina or anywhere else, as Andrew Jackson had done.

The most egregious falsehood spread by Loewen is to say that the tariff that was in existence in 1860 was the 1857 tariff rate, which was in fact the lowest tariff rate of the entire nineteenth century. In his famous Tariff History of the United States economist Frank Taussig called the 1857 tariff the high water mark of free trade during that century. The Big Lie here is that Loewen makes no mention at all of the fact that the notorious Morrill Tariff, which more than doubled the average tariff rate (from 15% to 32.6% initially), was passed by the U.S. House of Representatives during the 1859–60 session of Congress, and was the cornerstone of the Republican Party's economic policy. It then passed the U.S. Senate, and was signed into law by President James Buchanan on March 2, 1861, two days before Lincoln's inauguration, where he threatened war on any state that failed to collect the new tax. At the time, the tariff accounted for at least 90 percent of all federal tax revenues. The Morrill Tariff therefore represented a more than doubling of the rate of federal taxation!

And then of course, no one wants to talk about the 5 union states that still maintained slavery AFTER the Emancipation Proclamation. Those being Delaware, Maryland, Kentucky, Missouri, and West Virginia.

[Brett85]

BTW, in my original comment I wasn't saying that the north was any better than the south. I think that both sides were very anti liberty, and libertarians should dislike both sides.

[Brett85]

Because your fine statist self says so. Got it. Next.

And of course on Facebook I'm called an "anarchist" by my liberal and neoconservative friends. I guess it just depends on your perspective. I suppose technically anyone who doesn't want to completely abolish the state is a statist, which would mean that every minarchist would get that label as well.

[AuH20]

BTW, in my original comment I wasn't saying that the north was any better than the south. I think that both sides were very anti liberty, and libertarians should dislike both sides.

No one is saying that the South was a libertarian utopia because it was far from it. It was more of an agrarian based aristocracy. Slavery is an atrocious act, but the whitewashing of the North's crimes are legendary.

[osan]

1860: Member of an anti-slavery party is elected President.
1861: Most of the slave states leave the union.

History is truly full of such strange coincidences!:rolleyes:

'A'.

'B'.

Therefore 'A' -> 'B'.

A FAIL-plex, i.e. FAIL^FAIL.

No soup for you.

[Southron]

1860: Member of an anti-slavery party is elected President.
1861: Most of the slave states leave the union.

History is truly full of such strange coincidences!:rolleyes:

Only 7 of the 15 slave states seceded because of the election of Lincoln.

But a majority did secede when Lincoln told them they would have to invade and kill their neighbors.

[osan]

So some would not like to see that flag over their state capital. Kinda like some don't care for a Confederate Flag flying there.

The hell are you going on about? Sentence structure, man... a sentence and a group thereof need to make sense. You're not making much here...

But if I have the gist of that which you are here raving, what if I don't want the stars and bars over my capitol? What's that? "Fuck you anyway and because"?

That's what I thought.


What if we just had state and national flags flying? You can fly whatever you want at your own property.

We could just dispense with flags altogether.

[georgiaboy]

"So Rand, do you agree with Mitt Romney, whom you endorsed for president in 2012, that SC should forever take down the Confederate Battle Flag from its capitol?"

I mean Mitt, really, did you do this on purpose or what?

[AuH20]

this is getting good..............I wonder how it feels to be so willfully ignorant. Good vs Evil. ROFL So simplistic.

http://www.freep.com/story/opinion/contributors/2015/06/19/south-carolina-shootings/28982177/


And Roof was true to the colors of the Stars and Bars. He is said to have believed in the inferiority of black people, who were employed mostly as slaves by South Carolina and other states in the South when they started a bloody revolution in 1861 to "protect their states rights" to enslave other human beings.

Affidavits spell out chilling case against Dylann Roof

Although the Confederate states lost, they were never punished enough and this allowed white attitudes of racial superiority to flourish in the South, even today, 150 years after that war.

The flying of the flag is a purposeful affront not only to African Americans but also to humanity in general.

In that South Carolina will never willingly take down the flag, the time has come for opponents to exercise their First Amendment right to free speech and burn the Confederate flag — at the state Capitol in South Carolina, in front of the White House, in front of Fox News or maybe even outside the Grand Ol' Opry.

Don't burn it in a way that can cause harm. Make sure people are not in the vicinity and check the direction of the wind. Keep a fire extinguisher near in case a grass fire accidentally starts. Don't use too much flammable liquid to start it.

Of course, burning the Confederate flag would be disrespectful. That is exactly the point.

There is no need to respect a symbol that is as evil and vicious to African Americans as the Nazi swastika flag is to Jews. In fact, it is important to actively disrespect the banner that represents a pure form of human evil.

The display of the Confederate flag — anywhere — is a nonverbal statement of race hate. Its burning would be a nonverbal response to its crude attitude. You're sure not going to change their attitudes with sweet reason. Fight their figurative fire with the real thing.

People who still believe in the values of the "Lost Cause" need to be educated about how normal people feel about their insurrection. We are happy that Abraham Lincoln and the Union army smashed a society based on cruel exploitation, rape and sadism.

We resent how your ancestors insisted on founding our nation on the Original Sin of slavery and how the poison of racism has permeated all 50 states, to some degree or another, to this very day, even with a black president in the White House.

Lemme guess. This fool is white?

[William Tell]

"Mitt Romney, the Yankee liberal." Who near all Southern whites voted for. Maybe they should listen to him. They certainly did in 2012. And if it's only because he was a white Republican, then what does that tell you? Enough is enough. The war is over. The North won. The ideals of the USA won out. You don't get to re-write history because you don't like the results. Lord knows the USA is hardly perfect but its the country we live and you make it better, not pine for a defeated memory because somehow you think it has "honor". So did the boys in blue and they won. Yes, the winners get to dictate terms. Deal with it.'

Lol, wars are like elections, the worst guys usually win. I guess when your country is taken over and the women get raped everyone just needs to deal with it, oh well.

Liberty is an idea, it won't be boxed in by the fact that an imperial army won. being politically involved is certainly the way to go. But I will not change my thinking on a war because of who won.

[JK/SEA]

Thank you, Mitt, for saying this at a time when the party is already deeply divided. Now we're going to be fighting over this nonsense.

Mitts just trying to expand the base....

[William Tell]

this is getting good..............I wonder how it feels to be so willfully ignorant. Good vs Evil. ROFL So simplistic.


Although the Confederate states lost, they were never punished enough and this allowed white attitudes of racial superiority to flourish in the South, even today, 150 years after that war.

http://www.freep.com/story/opinion/contributors/2015/06/19/south-carolina-shootings/28982177/



Lemme guess. This fool is white?

Not punished enough? What is his point, that Yankee soldiers should have raped and killed more black women in New Orleans than they did? What a moron. Punishing the South more would have hurt blacks more than whites. And caused far more racial strife.

[sparebulb]

Mitts just trying to expand the base....

Willard proves that America is ready for a single political party system.

[Tywysog Cymru]

And then of course, no one wants to talk about the 5 union states that still maintained slavery AFTER the Emancipation Proclamation. Those being Delaware, Maryland, Kentucky, Missouri, and West Virginia.

I'm pretty sure West Virginia was admitted as a free state. But notice how most of those states you mentioned had pro-CSA factions. It was the slave states that the CSA appealed to.


'A'.

'B'.

Therefore 'A' -> 'B'.

A FAIL-plex, i.e. FAIL^FAIL.

No soup for you.

You don't think the two might be connected?


Only 7 of the 15 slave states seceded because of the election of Lincoln.

But a majority did secede when Lincoln told them they would have to invade and kill their neighbors.

If the CSA was all about freedom from the Federal government then why was it only the slave states that joined it? Why didn't Northerners who voted against Lincoln rally behind the Southern cause?


Mitts just trying to expand the base....

How dare he!

[phill4paul]

If the CSA was all about freedom from the Federal government then why was it only the slave states that joined it? Why didn't Northerners who voted against Lincoln rally behind the Southern cause?


Many in the North fought for the South. Just as many in the South fought for the North. If one tries to paint this war in black and white, good vs. evil, this vs. that then one misses much of the multi-hued panorama that was the Civil War.

[Occam's Banana]

Why didn't Northerners who voted against Lincoln rally behind the Southern cause?

They did. At the least, they rallied behind the anti-war cause (if not the "Southern" cause). Or they tried to ...

They were called Copperheads (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copperheads_%28politics%29). They were systematically hounded, persecuted, jailed, etc. by the Lincoln regime and Northern "patriots."

One of them - Clement Vallandigham (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clement_Vallandigham) - was a congressman from Ohio who was forcibly "exiled" from the Union because of his vehement opposition to the war.

[phill4paul]

They did. At the least, they rallied behind the anti-war cause (if not the "Southern" cause). Or they tried to ...

They were called Copperheads (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copperheads_%28politics%29). They were systematically hounded, persecuted, jailed, etc. by the Lincoln regime and Northern "patriots."

One of them - Clement Vallandigham (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clement_Vallandigham) - was a congressman from Ohio who was forcibly "exiled" from the Union because of his vehement opposition to the war.

And let's not forget the Draft Riots of 1863. Or the fact that New York Mayor, Fernando Wood, called for the city to secede from the Union.

[William Tell]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CH-G9pmUAAEurRj.jpg

Wow, that flag is clearly racist. Next thing you'll be telling me that the U.S flag flew over the oppression of natives, and Japanese Americans. And that the Confederate army did not have racial segregation, while the Union army did.:eek:

[Occam's Banana]

And let's not forget the Draft Riots of 1863. Or the fact that New York Mayor, Fernando Wood, called for the city to secede from the Union.

And all the journalists, newspaper editors and others who were jailed (sans habeas corpus, courtesy of Mr. Lincoln) because they were publically critical of or opposed to the war.

IIRC, they numbered in the thousands ...

[phill4paul]

And all the journalists, newspaper editors and others who were jailed (sans habeas corpus, courtesy of Mr. Lincoln) because they were publically critical of or opposed to the war.

IIRC, they numbered in the thousands ...

Anyone that believes that the North, in it's entirety, rose up to "free the slaves from bondage" or that the South, in it's entirety, rose up to "keep the slaves shackled" has had their blinders of public re-education and media manipulation on so long that is just easier for them to ignore the facts that are on either side of the road.

[Tywysog Cymru]

Many in the North fought for the South. Just as many in the South fought for the North. If one tries to paint this war in black and white, good vs. evil, this vs. that then one misses much of the multi-hued panorama that was the Civil War.


They did. At the least, they rallied behind the anti-war cause (if not the "Southern" cause). Or they tried to ...

They were called Copperheads (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copperheads_%28politics%29). They were systematically hounded, persecuted, jailed, etc. by the Lincoln regime and Northern "patriots."

One of them - Clement Vallandigham (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clement_Vallandigham) - was a congressman from Ohio who was forcibly "exiled" from the Union because of his vehement opposition to the war.

I would have probably been a Copperhead if I had lived back then. However, opposing the war did not make them pro-Confederate. Just like opposing the Iraq War didn't make one pro-Hussein.

What I'm saying is that if the Civil War wasn't about slavery it would have been a national rebellion. Instead, it was confined to the states that had slavery. And it was started because an abolitionist was elected President.

Here is a link to a speech by Jefferson Davis from before the war about slavery and secession. (http://www.confederatepastpresent.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=117:speech-of-jefferson-davis-before-the-mississippi-legislature-nov-16-1858q-where-he-advocates-secession-if-an-abolitionist-is-elected-president-&catid=41:the-gathering-storm)

[phill4paul]

I would have probably been a Copperhead if I had lived back then. However, opposing the war did not make them pro-Confederate. Just like opposing the Iraq War didn't make one pro-Hussein.

What I'm saying is that if the Civil War wasn't about slavery it would have been a national rebellion. Instead, it was confined to the states that had slavery. And it was started because an abolitionist was elected President.

Here is a link to a speech by Jefferson Davis from before the war about slavery and secession. (http://www.confederatepastpresent.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=117:speech-of-jefferson-davis-before-the-mississippi-legislature-nov-16-1858q-where-he-advocates-secession-if-an-abolitionist-is-elected-president-&catid=41:the-gathering-storm)

Certainly, for many, opposing the war absolutely did not mean they were pro-Confederate. Had it not been for forced conscription, on both sides, I doubt much would have come about because of declared war.

[William Tell]

Certainly, for many, opposing the war absolutely did not mean they were pro-Confederate. Had it not been for forced conscription, on both sides, I doubt much would have come about because of declared war.

I believe conscription did not take place until 1862.

[phill4paul]

I believe conscription did not take place until 1862.

The Union Enrollment Act took place March 3, 1863. The Confederacy passed one of it's first conscription acts a year earlier on April 16th. People were tiring of the war. The average man considered it "a rich man's battle, but a poor man's fight." They weren't re-enlisting and something had to be done by both sides.

[Inkblots]

If I were a citizen of South Carolina, I'd ask my representatives to vote for the bill to stop flying the Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia over the Statehouse grounds.

But I'm not a citizen of South Carolina, so my views on the matter frankly don't matter all that much.

[Occam's Banana]

What I'm saying is that if the Civil War wasn't about slavery it would have been a national rebellion. Instead, it was confined to the states that had slavery.

:confused: These statements do not make any sense. The Civil War was certainly a national conflict.
Two parts of the nation warred against one another. It does not get any more "national" than that ...

The South sought political separation - and there is no question that secession was motivated by (among other things) a desire to preserve the institution of slavery, which they regarded as being in jeopardy should they remain in political union with the North. But their reasons for secession were NOT the reason for the war. Those were entirely separate things.

The North sought to forcibly maintain political union. That is why the war was fought. It was NOT fought by the North in order to end slavery (the South's desire to preserve slavery notwithstanding). Had the North been willing to permit secession (or unable to prevent it), no war would have been fought.


And it was started because an abolitionist was elected President.

Lincoln was not an abolitionist.

In his first inaugural, as a sop to the South, he offered his support for the so-called "Corwin amendment" (what would have become the 13th amendment, had it passed), which would have forbidden the federal government from abolishing slavery. That's a pretty damn strange thing for an "abolitionist" to do ... (and the only way around this is to say that Lincoln was merely opposed to abolition at the federal level - i.e., that he was a "states' rights" guy - a claim that would be even more bizarre than that he was an abolitionist ...)

Furthermore, it is instructive to note that in the very same inaugural address in which he stated his willingness to support the Constitutional preservation of slavery in perpetuo, he also made it clear that he would not hesitate to use military force against any state that did not comply with the recently-passed (and in the South, much-hated) Morrill Tariff ...

[Southron]

Let's be honest. Demands to take down the Battle Flag have more than to do with smashing any remaining vestiges of defiance that still exist in the South than any perceived offenses.

The people who venerate the flag are much less likely to be your typical Romney voter than Reconstructed Southerners or transplant Yankees.

[Tywysog Cymru]

Let's be honest. Demands to take down the Battle Flag have more than to do with smashing any remaining vestiges of defiance that still exist in the South than any perceived offenses.

The people who venerate the flag are much less likely to be your typical Romney voter than Reconstructed Southerners or transplant Yankees.

You're right, they're you're typical Newt Gingrich voter. McCain won SC in 2008 by the way. The deep South also overwhelmingly rejected Ron Paul.


:confused: These statements do not make any sense. The Civil War was certainly a national conflict.
Two parts of the nation warred against one another. It does not get any more "national" than that ...

The South sought political separation - and there is no question that secession was motivated by (among other things) a desire to preserve the institution of slavery, which they regarded as being in jeopardy should they remain in political union with the North. But their reasons for secession were NOT the reason for the war. Those were entirely separate things.

The North sought to forcibly maintain political union. That is why the war was fought. It was NOT fought by the North in order to end slavery (the South's desire to preserve slavery notwithstanding). Had the North been willing to permit secession (or unable to prevent it), no war would have been fought.

I wasn't defending the North, I'm just saying that slavery was the reason for secession and that is well documented.


Lincoln was not an abolitionist.

In his first inaugural, as a sop to the South, he offered his support for the so-called "Corwin amendment" (what would have become the 13th amendment, had it passed), which would have forbidden the federal government from abolishing slavery. That's a pretty damn strange thing for an "abolitionist" to do ... (and the only way around this is to say that Lincoln was merely opposed to abolition at the federal level - i.e., that he was a "states' rights" guy - a claim that would be even more bizarre than that he was an abolitionist ...)

Furthermore, it is instructive to note that in the very same inaugural address in which he stated his willingness to support the Constitutional preservation of slavery in perpetuo, he also made it clear that he would not hesitate to use military force against any state that did not comply with the recently-passed (and in the South, much-hated) Morrill Tariff ...

Lincoln was perceived as an abolitionist in the South and the Republican Party was an abolitionist party.

[William Tell]

You're right, they're you're typical Newt Gingrich voter. McCain won SC in 2008 by the way. The deep South also overwhelmingly rejected Ron Paul.

Total nonsense. All the people I know who are serious about defending the Confederacy are Ron Paul supporters or Constitutionalists.

[Tywysog Cymru]

Total nonsense. All the people I know who are serious about defending the Confederacy are Ron Paul supporters or Constitutionalists.

Really? In South Carolina I rarely see Ron Paul supporters. In Kentucky, Indiana, and Ohio, they are quite common.

[William Tell]

Really? In South Carolina I rarely see Ron Paul supporters. In Kentucky, Indiana, and Ohio, they are quite common.
Yes really, in Texas anyway. All the people I know who are involved in historical Confederate groups supported Ron Paul, as far as I know.

I am not involved in any of those groups, but I know a lot of people who are.

[Tywysog Cymru]

Yes really, in Texas anyway. Everyone I know who is involved in Sons of Confederate veterans, all the people I know who are involved in historical Confederate groups supported Ron Paul, as far as I know.

I guess it's a Texan thing. Because most people I've met who defend the Confederacy also defend the legacy of George W. Bush.

[Occam's Banana]

I wasn't defending the North,

Nor am I defending the South - except insofar as I am defending the right of secession.

Otherwise, to hell with them. They were human-chattel slavers. 'Nuff said.


I'm just saying that slavery was the reason for secession and that is well documented.

Agreed 100%. I'm just saying that their "reasons for secession" and the "reasons for the war" are disjoint sets - or at least, their intersection does not include slavery.


Lincoln was perceived as an abolitionist in the South

Of course he was. A nice bit of useful propaganda, that - an easy way to rally & rile up the base (rather like interventionists conveniently "perceiving" Ron Paul as an "isolationist" ...)

But regardless of how he was perceived in the South, Lincoln was not, in fact, an abolitionist.


and the Republican Party was an abolitionist party.

The extent of their abolitionism appears to have been mostly restricted to a desire to prevent slavery from expanding into the western territories - a desire that largely seems to have been motivated not by any particular moral abhorrence of slavery, but rather to an eminently "practical" wish to prevent the bloc of slave states from gaining any more representation (and, hence, power) in the national legislature.

As a party, they were certainly not principled abolitionists (like William Lloyd Garrison). It is worth noting that the aforementioned "Corwin amendment" (which would have enshrined slavery in perpetuo, as far as the federal government was concerned) was conceived, authored and proposed by Thomas Corwin - a Republican congressman from Ohio - and was, as mentioned, supported by newly-elected president Abraham Lincoln, who was also a Republican ...

[CaptUSA]

To be honest, I didn't read all of the posts, but did anyone mention the establishment using this "controversy" as a means to misdirect the conversation?

They do this every so often and it always seems to work. Racial division is a powerful tool in their arsenal.

[Southron]

Look what the media have created. Now people are vandalising Confederate statues.

http://www.abcnews4.com/story/29371364/confederate-statue-vandalized-downtown#.VYcxRkcNzsA.t

[Voluntarist]

xxxxx

[Brett85]

Total nonsense. All the people I know who are serious about defending the Confederacy are Ron Paul supporters or Constitutionalists.

That's disappointing, because they're giving Ron Paul and the liberty movement a bad name.

[Origanalist]

That's disappointing, because they're giving Ron Paul and the liberty movement a bad name.

Aww, poor thing.

[donnay]

FWIW, I still like the Gadsden flag too. :)

https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&hl=en&source=hp&q=gadsden+flag&gbv=2&oq=Gadsden&gs_l=img.1.1.0l10.2766.5813.0.9313.7.5.0.2.2.0.172 .842.0j5.5.0....0...1ac.1.34.img..0.7.920.EE5uCkae KWk

I fly mine proudly!

----------------------------------

Mitt is typical establishment trash trying to help start a race war. You ever notice that the biggest racists are the biggest hypocrites?

[Brett85]

Aww, poor thing.

How some of you support the Confederacy is beyond me. Slavery and the Confederacy is the antithesis to liberty. You also don't have to be a supporter of Abraham Lincoln and the north to realize how awful the Confederacy was.

[Brett85]

If he respected states rights, he as a political figure from another state wouldn't voice an opinion as he is not a SC resident.

Being in favor of states' rights doesn't mean that you can't voice your opinion about laws in other states. That's just an absurd interpretation of states' rights. States' rights simply means that you oppose federal laws that overturn laws passed by state legislatures or the people in the various states.

[William Tell]

That's disappointing, because they're giving Ron Paul and the liberty movement a bad name.

Cry us a river.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bz3PZSLjhmA

[Carlybee]

How some of you support the Confederacy is beyond me. Slavery and the Confederacy is the antithesis to liberty. You also don't have to be a supporter of Abraham Lincoln and the north to realize how awful the Confederacy was.

The Confederacy no longer exists. The Confederate flag exists as a rememberance of the thousands who died in the war. I don't see anyone here supporting slavery so where do you get that and how can someone support something that no longer exists?

[Aratus]

"Take down the #ConfederateFlag at the SC Capitol. To many, it is a symbol of racial
hatred. Remove it now to honor #Charleston victims." MITT ROMNEY in 2015 on Twitter

All during 2o12 he had me guessing about his stances on the many issues of the day, and now that
he's not running for the presidency he's starting to speak his mind??? This being said before i EVEN
wade into the basic question over where and how a Confederate flag ought to be flown and why!!!!

[Brett85]

Anyone that believes that the North, in it's entirety, rose up to "free the slaves from bondage" or that the South, in it's entirety, rose up to "keep the slaves shackled" has had their blinders of public re-education and media manipulation on so long that is just easier for them to ignore the facts that are on either side of the road.

It's not true that the Civil War was entirely about slavery, and that the north was fighting to free the slaves and the south was fighting to preserve slavery. Obviously it's far more complex than that. But neither is it true that the Civil War had nothing to do with slavery as some claim. The truth is more nuanced and is somewhere in between. The north didn't use slavery as a reason for fighting the Civil War until near the very end of the war, and it's not likely that the north in the beginning wanted to fight the war in order to end slavery. At the same time, the south did indeed secede from the union mostly to preserve slavery, as they stated in their written documents detailing why they wanted to secede.

[donnay]

The Confederacy no longer exists. The Confederate flag exists as a rememberance of the thousands who died in the war. I don't see anyone here supporting slavery so where do you get that and how can someone support something that no longer exists?

So while some in this forum are arguing that the confederate flag is about slavery...this is the new slavery flag--for us all.

http://www.voicesofflowermound.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/american-flag.jpg


"None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free."

[Brett85]

Cry us a river.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bz3PZSLjhmA

That wasn't very smart either IMO. That's why we can't expand the base of the liberty movement beyond white men.

[Brett85]

The Confederacy no longer exists. The Confederate flag exists as a rememberance of the thousands who died in the war. I don't see anyone here supporting slavery so where do you get that and how can someone support something that no longer exists?

They seemed to at least be arguing that the Confederacy was on the right side of the Civil War, and I just don't agree. I do agree that the north and Abraham Lincoln weren't the heroic anti slavery crusaders that history books make them out to be, but that doesn't mean that the Confederacy was any better or any more pro liberty than the north.

[TheCount]

Total nonsense. All the people I know who are serious about defending the Confederacy are Ron Paul supporters or Constitutionalists.

Welp, not in SC.

[Brett85]

Welp, not in SC.

Yeah, people on this forum are defending the views of people who are most likely the same people who booed Ron in the SC GOP debate for saying that our government should follow the golden rule in foreign policy.

[Aratus]

i'm a Baystater. i can indeed remember when he was our governor and took the responsibilities of his high office seriously.
we've had over 300 years worth of governors and Mitt was easily better than average let alone better than most. I regard
the shooting as a major tragedy, I know why he is upset, but even so, i find myself thinking over the many times he took
several contradictory stances on an issue of the day. refreshingly, he is at least speaking his mind without being terribly
confusing, and even if the debate over all Confederate flags shall continue on well after the events of the past week or so,
at least we know where he stands on the issue. Both sides in this debate have their merit, there were Copperheads aplenty
in the North in the early 1860s and Scalawags aplenty all over Jefferson Davis's Confederacy. Our own Civil War had several
causes, and we as a nation are still healing its wounds in more ways than one! At least Mitt is being quite honest with us all...

[Carlybee]

They seemed to at least be arguing that the Confederacy was on the right side of the Civil War, and I just don't agree. I do agree that the north and Abraham Lincoln weren't the heroic anti slavery crusaders that history books make them out to be, but that doesn't mean that the Confederacy was any better or any more pro liberty than the north.


The Confederate war was mainly poor men fighting for rich mens property. The slave owners were the minority in numbers but the federal governments actions threatened everyone in the south's livelihoods and abilities to feed their families. Slavery issues aside, it was also about states rights. I don't think very many people think the Confederacy was on the right side of the slavery issue. I'm still not sure how anyone back then could think it was okay to own humans. Many of the founders did as well and it was a practice that came directly over from Europe. Even some Indian tribes kept slaves. It's definitely a complex issue, but I can understand wanting to remember the 500,000 dead and wounded as being of historical significance in the south. Ultimately though this flag issue is going to end up a federal referendum on being PC, just like forcing football teams to change their mascot names. That's where the liberty issue comes in.

[PierzStyx]

I don't see any reason not to take it down. There are too many libertarians that I've run into that still defend the Confederacy. In reality slavery is the antithesis to libertarianism, and there should be nothing but disgust and contempt for the Confederacy. I know that the North had their problems as well, but I see no reason to defend the Confederacy.

Right up there with libertarians who defend Andrew Jackson. I don't care if Jackson was busting central banks because he was also using the military to attack and remove people from the lands they legally own and were legally protected on to exile them outside the country so he and his rich buddies could win re-election. I am, of course, talking about the Indian Removal. Likewise, I don;t care how much I support individual secession, the Confederacy was still a slaveocracy and its government defended the idea that it was moral to own another human being. Both sides did actually. There were no countries in the Civil War that weren't slaveocracies.

[PierzStyx]

Slavery issues aside, it was also about states rights..

You CAN'T just set the enslavement of millions of people aside. Slavery is monstrous and monstrous nations support it. Also, the rights the states were worried about was if the Fedgov could tell them to end slavery or not.

[PierzStyx]

HOnestly, if you're going to fly a Confederate flag, fly the CSA national flag, which most people will probably confuse for a Revolutionary era flag, or the Bonnie Blue, which looks nicer.

[Vanguard101]

Surprised there isn't more outrage by the neo-confederates on this page

[Carlybee]

You CAN'T just set the enslavement of millions of people aside. Slavery is monstrous and monstrous nations support it. Also, the rights the states were worried about was if the Fedgov could tell them to end slavery or not.


Yes it was monstrous, however to many who didn't own slaves, they were still concerned about the federal government confiscating their savings and property so for them it wasn't necessarily about slavery even though slavery was the catalyst.

THIS issue with the flag is about states rights and the people of SC are the ones who should be allowed to choose what flags fly over their Capitol...not the federal government, not Mitt Romney, and not the media.

[Southron]

Add Jeb Bush to the list as well.
http://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics-government/article25106668.html

[ChiefJustice]

The truth of the matter is that YES it should be removed. It represents a failed rebellion based largely upon the preservation of the institution of slavery. Thats simply a fact. Gotta love when the apologists try to parade the whole "states rights" excuse. They cared about states rights because they were afraid they would be told to free the slaves like most all world powers had already done by that point. South Carolina is part of the United States of America. That and the state flag (though some of these states have Confederate references on their flags) should be the only things flying above the state house. Southern heritage my ass.

The Confederacy was a disgraceful entity that had a dark purpose behind it. I don't weep at the thought of a thousand Confederate flags being put to the flame.

[cindy25]

you can't force it, that would only cause more resentment, more racial divisions. Germany dropped the Nazi flag by choice, but Japan still has the rising sun, which is hated in China and Korea.

if taken down on public buildings you will see it fly on more private businesses and homes than now. it should be allowed to die a natural death.

[cindy25]

Yes it was monstrous, however to many who didn't own slaves, they were still concerned about the federal government confiscating their savings and property so for them it wasn't necessarily about slavery even though slavery was the catalyst.

THIS issue with the flag is about states rights and the people of SC are the ones who should be allowed to choose what flags fly over their Capitol...not the federal government, not Mitt Romney, and not the media.

its not their capital, that came down in 2000. its over a war memorial-which was a compromise agreed by both sides.

[AuH20]

That wasn't very smart either IMO. That's why we can't expand the base of the liberty movement beyond white men.

That problem goes FAR BEYOND a flag.

[Carlybee]

The truth of the matter is that YES it should be removed. It represents a failed rebellion based largely upon the preservation of the institution of slavery. Thats simply a fact. Gotta love when the apologists try to parade the whole "states rights" excuse. They cared about states rights because they were afraid they would be told to free the slaves like most all world powers had already done by that point. South Carolina is part of the United States of America. That and the state flag (though some of these states have Confederate references on their flags) should be the only things flying above the state house. Southern heritage my ass.

The Confederacy was a disgraceful entity that had a dark purpose behind it. I don't weep at the thought of a thousand Confederate flags being put to the flame.

Do you live in SC?

[Carlybee]

you can't force it, that would only cause more resentment, more racial divisions. Germany dropped the Nazi flag by choice, but Japan still has the rising sun, which is hated in China and Korea.

if taken down on public buildings you will see it fly on more private businesses and homes than now. it should be allowed to die a natural death.

Yep

[AuH20]

A little known fact about the EVIL Confederacy..........

http://www.libertyclassroom.com/slavery-and-the-civil-war-revisited/


In 1864, Duncan F. Kenner, perhaps the largest slave holder in the South at the time and representative from Louisiana, approached Davis with a unique proposal. In order to gain the recognition of the British and French governments, something that had eluded the Confederacy since the beginning of the War, Kenner suggested that Davis tell both governments that the Confederacy would abolish slavery. No timeframe was discussed, and Kenner originally floated the idea of presenting the plan to the Confederate Congress. Davis asked Kenner not to do so and rejected the idea outright, thinking that the situation was not yet desperate enough to warrant such a move, but in late 1864 he sent for Kenner and told him to put the plan in motion. Kenner was given credentials and set out on a secret mission to Europe in January 1865. He arrived just weeks before Robert E. Lee surrendered at Appomattox Courthouse and met with the two Confederate commissioners, James M. Mason (grandson of George Mason) and John Slidell, in Paris. Slidell at first refused to support the plan, but Kenner told him that such refusal would result in his immediate suspension.

[ChiefJustice]

Do you live in SC?Nope I'm from New England. While I'm sure there are Carolinians who aren't racist and support the Confederate flag being flown, that doesn't change the history behind it and why it is wrong to fly the flag.

It represents an entity that fought a rebellion to preserve slavery. All the stuff about states rights, the tariffs, nullification it all goes back to the root of the motivation...slavery.

And while there were many poor Southerners fighting under the Confederacy that doesn't make it justifiable to be proud of it. Many of the non-slave owners fully supported the institution of slavery that they were ultimately fighting for.

Be proud to be a Southerner...but don't be proud of the Confederacy which sought to protect the biggest black mark on the history of our country. Flying the Confederate flag symbolizes the protection of slavery.

I've seen multiple people flying Confederate flags up in places like New Hampshire, even Maine. Guess what? Those who I've actually talked to are prejudiced toward minorities and made comments indicative of that. Like it or not it's also come to be a representation of racism.

[Christian Liberty]

I don't see any reason not to take it down. There are too many libertarians that I've run into that still defend the Confederacy. In reality slavery is the antithesis to libertarianism, and there should be nothing but disgust and contempt for the Confederacy. I know that the North had their problems as well, but I see no reason to defend the Confederacy.

Can I hate both sides? :p

[AuH20]

Nope I'm from New England. While I'm sure there are Carolinians who aren't racist and support the Confederate flag being flown, that doesn't change the history behind it and why it is wrong to fly the flag.

It represents an entity that fought a rebellion to preserve slavery. All the stuff about states rights, the tariffs, nullification it all goes back to the root of the motivation...slavery.

And while there were many poor Southerners fighting under the Confederacy that doesn't make it justifiable to be proud of it. Many of the non-slave owners fully supported the institution of slavery that they were ultimately fighting for.

Be proud to be a Southerner...but don't be proud of the Confederacy which sought to protect the biggest black mark on the history of our country. Flying the Confederate flag symbolizes the protection of slavery.

I've seen multiple people flying Confederate flags up in places like New Hampshire, even Maine. Guess what? Those who I've actually talked to are prejudiced toward minorities and made comments indicative of that. Like it or not it's also come to be a representation of racism.

Do you think that Lincoln would have rolled back the controversial Morrill Tariff and called back the troops if the South simply gave up slavery? The answer is a resounding no.

[DevilsAdvocate]

Who cares? It's a flag. Anyway, the South wasn't fighting for slavery, that's an extremely childish and undeveloped point of view.

[Carlybee]

Nope I'm from New England. While I'm sure there are Carolinians who aren't racist and support the Confederate flag being flown, that doesn't change the history behind it and why it is wrong to fly the flag.

It represents an entity that fought a rebellion to preserve slavery. All the stuff about states rights, the tariffs, nullification it all goes back to the root of the motivation...slavery.

And while there were many poor Southerners fighting under the Confederacy that doesn't make it justifiable to be proud of it. Many of the non-slave owners fully supported the institution of slavery that they were ultimately fighting for.

Be proud to be a Southerner...but don't be proud of the Confederacy which sought to protect the biggest black mark on the history of our country. Flying the Confederate flag symbolizes the protection of slavery.

I've seen multiple people flying Confederate flags up in places like New Hampshire, even Maine. Guess what? Those who I've actually talked to are prejudiced toward minorities and made comments indicative of that. Like it or not it's also come to be a representation of racism.


So? I'm not the thought police. Apparently you are. If the voters who live there want it down, they'll take it down....unless of course you prefer to give the federal government the power to ban symbols and monitor thought.

[jonhowe]

Anyone who cares at all about ANY flag of ANY country has fallen victim to the disease of nationalism.

[jonhowe]

So? I'm not the thought police. Apparently you are. If the voters who live there want it down, they'll take it down....unless of course you prefer to give the federal government the power to ban symbols and monitor thought.

Who is saying it should be banned?

Decent people shouldn't fly it. A decent electorate would pressure their representatives to vote to take it down on state property.

I hope no one is calling for a ban. That's absurd.

[Carlybee]

Who is saying it should be banned?

Decent people shouldn't fly it. A decent electorate would pressure their representatives to vote to take it down on state property.

I hope no one is calling for a ban. That's absurd.


Obviously thats where it's headed. I'm not the morals and decency police either. Regardless of the symbolism of this flag, can anyone tell me how it is harming anything other than feelings?

[AuH20]

Anyone who cares at all about ANY flag of ANY country has fallen victim to the disease of nationalism.

In this particular case, the people who want the flag down have nefarious motives in mind. This is no longer about the flying of the flag. It's about raw power manifested at the federal level and the staunch defense of such abhorrent practices.

[Carlybee]

In this particular case, the people who want the flag down have nefarious motives in mind. This is no longer about the flag. It's about raw power manifested at the federal level.

But it's hurting people's feelings dude...even though it's over something that took place in the 1800s and no longer exists. The government needs to step in because apparently racist mass murderers are lurking in their mom's basements throughout the south and the flag is telling them to kill black people.

[TheTexan]

Decent people shouldn't fly it.

Yes, people who fly the Confederate flag are indecent individuals. And indecent Americans.

May the unions that bind these states together, forged from the deaths of more than 600,000 men, shall forever remain as strong as iron shackles around the legs and necks of these great United States.

Long live the United States of America.

http://www.politicspa.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/American-Flag.jpg

[wizardwatson]

In this particular case, the people who want the flag down have nefarious motives in mind. This is no longer about the flying of the flag. It's about raw power manifested at the federal level and the staunch defense of such abhorrent practices.

Nefarious motives indeed.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4GlztVGlJs

http://i.imgur.com/cegYZVi.jpg

I used to have a general lee toy car. I loved it. I think it was the color, and looking back maybe that's why I want a Charger more than any other car.

[AuH20]

Nefarious motives indeed.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4GlztVGlJs

http://i.imgur.com/cegYZVi.jpg

Nascar outlawed the General Lee at any preracing events. Even they caved.

[AuH20]

Yes, people who fly the Confederate flag are indecent individuals. And indecent Americans.

May the unions that bind these states together, forged from the deaths of more than 600,000 men, shall forever remain as strong as iron shackles around the legs and necks of these great United States.

Long live the United States of America.

http://www.politicspa.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/American-Flag.jpg

http://leagueofthesouth.com/take-it-down-and-keep-it-flying/


Everywhere leftists are calling for the removal of the Confederate battle flag, especially at the State House in Columbia, SC.

We in The League of the South agree that a flag should be taken down. Not the most recognizable historic flag of the South but the flag of our occupiers for the last 150 years. Yes, the one to the far right over there! That ugly gridiron now stands for multiculturalism, tolerance, and diversity–the left’s unholy trinity. It also stands for Bruce/Caitlyn Jenner, Rachel Dolezal, and every other fraud and pervert who is held up as an example of “courage” in 2015 America. It represents the homosexual agenda, open borders and Third World immigration, a culture that is an open sewer, perpetual war for perpetual profit, among many other enormities.

In sharp contrast, our beautiful battle flag (near right, of course!) stands for the heroic effort our people made 150 years ago to avoid the fate were are experiencing today. And, God willing, it will be the banner that flies over the fight that gains us our liberty in the 21st century!

Michael Hill

Can't disagree with him there. The CSA flag may have more dignity than our current flag.

[wizardwatson]

Nascar outlawed the General Lee at any preracing events. Even they caved.

It's all retarded. The banks are the real slave owners. That's why Lincoln was in such a pickle. Ending slavery bankrupted the South.

Imagine if today Obama declared that all land between the rocky mountains and the Mississippi would be returned to the Native Americans. There would be war. It's the same thing. It was about money. The bankers could have financed a solution that involved buying out the slaves but they didn't. War and poverty makes for great buying opportunities.

They should keep the flag until America gets it in its head what really happened in that war.

[Occam's Banana]

Anyone who cares at all about ANY flag of ANY country has fallen victim to the disease of nationalism.

Indeed. One of the chief purposes of States is to bind people togetther in arbitrary and non-consensual union, and "nationalistic" symbols - especially flags - are indispensible to this purpose ...


Who is saying it should be banned?

Decent people shouldn't fly it. A decent electorate would pressure their representatives to vote to take it down on state property.

I hope no one is calling for a ban. That's absurd.

Unfortunately, this is an issue that involves "public" spaces (such as statehouse flagpoles). If it was merely a matter of what private persons chose to do with private pieces of colored cloth and private flagpoles, the "solution" to the "problem" would be as simple as it is obvious. Indeed, there wouldn't even be a "problem" to begin with - or if there was, it would not be nearly so magnified and amplified as it is (and would be much more localized and "contained" than it is) with the State involved.

Just as with virtually everything the State touches, something that would otherwise be non-problematic (or not-nearly-as-problematic) becomes a major point of vitriolic contention. You can observe exactly the same phenomenon in many other areas - such as evolution vs. creationism in "public" schools, to cite just one example. No matter what happens in any of these State-tainted issues, one "side" is going to find the outcome detestable and intolerable, and will seek to use the State to "correct" the matter in their favor - thereby setting off yet another round of battles in an interminable State-fostered tug-of-war ...

As for my own opinion regarding the display of the Confederate flag in "public" venues, I am essentially indifferent. Howerver, I must confess that I can't help but roll my eyes with impatient & contemptuous disgust when I see so many people reflexively howling & spluttering with "outrage" because some particular rag is being (or might no longer be) run up some particular "public" flagpole somewhere, while many of those same people have few if any problems with my money being forcibly extracted from me in order to make bombs to drop on innocent people on the other side of the world - or to force children to attend government indoctrination centers - or to give it to politically favored corporations that couldn't cut it in the marketplace - or to lock people up in cages for using the "wrong" drugs - or etc., etc., ad nauseam ...

[Origanalist]

Indeed. One of the chief purposes of States is to bind people togetther in arbitrary and non-consensual union, and "nationalistic" symbols - especially flags - are indispensible to this purpose ...



Unfortunately, this is an issue that involves "public" spaces (such as statehouse flagpoles). If it was merely a matter of what private persons chose to do with private pieces of colored cloth and private flagpoles, the "solution" to the "problem" would be as simple as it is obvious. Indeed, there wouldn't even be a "problem" to begin with - or if there was, it would not be nearly so magnified and amplified as it is (and would be much more localized and "contained" than it is) with the State involved.

Just as with virtually everything the State touches, something that would otherwise be non-problematic (or not-nearly-as-problematic) becomes a major point of vitriolic contention. You can observe exactly the same phenomenon in many other areas - such as evolution vs. creationism in "public" schools, to cite just one example. No matter what happens in any of these State-tainted issues, one "side" is going to find the outcome detestable and intolerable, and will seek to use the State to "correct" the matter in their favor - thereby setting off yet another round of battles in an interminable State-fostered tug-of-war ...

As for my own opinion regarding the display of the Confederate flag in "public" venues, I am essentially indifferent. Howerver, I must confess that I can't help but roll my eyes with impatient & contemptuous disgust when I see so many people reflexively howling & spluttering with "outrage" because some particular rag is being (or might no longer be) run up some particular "public" flagpole somewhere, while many of those same people have few if any problems with my money being forcibly extracted from me in order to make bombs to drop on innocent people on the other side of the world - or to force children to attend government indoctrination centers - or to give it to politically favored corporations that couldn't cut it in the marketplace - or to lock people up in cages for using the "wrong" drugs - or etc., etc., ad nauseam ...

The hypocrisy is astounding.

[PRB]

Not a Confederate flag to be seen.

https://www.lewrockwell.com/assets/2001/04/klan1923.jpg

https://www.lewrockwell.com/assets/2001/04/klan1925.jpg

https://www.lewrockwell.com/assets/2001/04/klanpat.jpg

https://www.lewrockwell.com/assets/2001/04/klan1960.jpg

Let me help you.

This was in Florida 1964

http://www.drbronsontours.com/sitebuilder/images/kkkrallystaug4-760x606.jpg

http://www.drbronsontours.com/images/kkkrallystaug.jpg

http://www.theseamericans.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/rc18122.jpg

Just because the Klan has used it, doesn't mean it's a symbol of hate. Just because Klan groups use it today, doesn't mean it's a symbol of hate.

Instances of rebel flags flown in the 60s by KKK people many not be common, but they existed, probably more prevalent than finding black confederate soldiers in the war.

[DevilsAdvocate]

Anyone who cares at all about ANY flag of ANY country has fallen victim to the disease of nationalism.

In my opinion some brand loyalty is a good thing. But nationalism is mostly used to raise a healthy crop of soldiers bound to the state. How do you get people to fight and die for your country? Nationalism. It's an extremely powerful and successful survival strategy used by various nations since ancient times.

Once you understand a problem, you can fix it.

[Badger Paul]

Cry us a river.

Indeed, he lost twice largely because of this crap.

[Brett85]

Can I hate both sides? :p

Yes, that's what I said in another post, that both sides were evil. There's no reason why anyone should even pick a side.

[enhanced_deficit]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwLMUkkyXPo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pwLMUkkyXPo

[Carlybee]

To those who believe the flag should be removed...if you drive through Georgia and a lot of the Carolinas, there are confederate flags all over the place in people's yards. Should public opinion demand those be removed as well? I mean, they are conceivably just as offensive, no?

[Southron]

Yes, that's what I said in another post, that both sides were evil. There's no reason why anyone should even pick a side.

Obviously the winning side feels threatened by the display of the Battle flag though. I wonder why that is?

[jonhowe]

In this particular case, the people who want the flag down have nefarious motives in mind. This is no longer about the flying of the flag. It's about raw power manifested at the federal level and the staunch defense of such abhorrent practices.

What is my nefarious motive?


(A: To not rub salt in the wounds of others.)

[wizardwatson]

What is my nefarious motive?


(A: To not rub salt in the wounds of others.)

Don't you think the U.S. flag "rubs salt" in the wounds of Native Americans? Do you support removing that?

If you're going to advocate something it has to be consistent, doesn't it?

[enhanced_deficit]

Don't you think the U.S. flag "rubs salt" in the wounds of Native Americans? Do you support removing that?

If you're going to advocate something it has to be consistent, doesn't it?

That's slippery slope. If family members of children killed by dgp's drone attacks also wanted removal of US flag, will US flag be disappeared.

[AuH20]

What is my nefarious motive?


(A: To not rub salt in the wounds of others.)

You're trying to placate others. I'm talking about the progs who want to enforce their will on the South as well as disparage the notion of state rights.

[jonhowe]

To those who believe the flag should be removed...if you drive through Georgia and a lot of the Carolinas, there are confederate flags all over the place in people's yards. Should public opinion demand those be removed as well? I mean, they are conceivably just as offensive, no?

They are somewhat less offensive, I'd guess, because it doesn't come with the implicit endorsement of "the state", but still offensive. That being said, I STRONGLY support people's right to be offensive. It is a vitally important right. Anyone suggesting a ban on any symbol is not someone you'll find posting here.

[jonhowe]

Don't you think the U.S. flag "rubs salt" in the wounds of Native Americans? Do you support removing that?

If you're going to advocate something it has to be consistent, doesn't it?

Yes, it does. At least most southerners agree that, while states rights are important, slavery was bad. Most Americans seem to still have no problem with the European genocide of the native peoples of 2 continents.

I'm in favor of not flying flags at all; I can't think of a good reason for them other than inspiring people to go to war. That being said, I'm also practical and realistic about these things; I don't expect to see the US flag retired.

[jonhowe]

You're trying to placate others. I'm talking about the progs who want to enforce their will on the South as well as disparage the notion of state rights.

Not trying to placate. Just advocating people not be needlessly rude to one another.

[AuH20]

Not trying to placate. Just advocating people not be needlessly rude to one another.

That's acceptable in my eyes, but I find it strange how this entire Roof situation immediately turned to the Confederate flag. It's almost like these activists don't care that Roof was on suboxone.

[wizardwatson]

Yes, it does. At least most southerners agree that, while states rights are important, slavery was bad. Most Americans seem to still have no problem with the European genocide of the native peoples of 2 continents.

I'm in favor of not flying flags at all; I can't think of a good reason for them other than inspiring people to go to war. That being said, I'm also practical and realistic about these things; I don't expect to see the US flag retired.

Well, lot's of people died fighting for that flag, not fighting for slavery. They have just as much right to fly that flag as the U.S. flag. And like I said further up in the thread, I support letting it fly just so people will learn the real story.

As long as slavery is viewed as "white shame" instead of "banker/business shame" people haven't learned their lesson. The powerful always use racial and religious demographic propaganda to hide themselves.

The war on terror is as much about terrorists as the civil war was about racism.

Of course racists and terrorists exist. But they are pawns. And for black people to focus on "white people need to own up to racism" is completely missing the source of their oppression.

The same people that started the Civil War were the same people that paid for the boats to bring them over here.

[Brett85]

To those who believe the flag should be removed...if you drive through Georgia and a lot of the Carolinas, there are confederate flags all over the place in people's yards. Should public opinion demand those be removed as well? I mean, they are conceivably just as offensive, no?

No, but that's a different issue. People have the 1st Amendment right to fly the Confederate flag on private property. This is just an issue about whether the Confederate flag should be flown on property owned by the government.

[jonhowe]

Well, lot's of people died fighting for that flag, not fighting for slavery. They have just as much right to fly that flag as the U.S. flag. And like I said further up in the thread, I support letting it fly just so people will learn the real story.

It's very hard for most people, myself included, to see the difference between fighting for that flag (which represented a new nation founded in order to maintain a way of life that included slavery) and fighting for slavery. Many Nazis weren't fighting for Hitler's ideology, but for their homeland. That doesn't mean it's fine and dandy to fly nazi flags (though, it should be legal).

You're totally right, though, about war and money.







That's acceptable in my eyes, but I find it strange how this entire Roof situation immediately turned to the Confederate flag. It's almost like these activists don't care that Roof was on suboxone.

Suboxone was likely what lit the match, but this guy was a powder keg. Most people don't yet know/understand how prevalent such drugs are in mass shootings so don't really care.

I think the fact that he was such a flag enthusiast (South Africa and Rhodesia on his shirt, a confederate one in his hand, and pics of him spitting on a US flag) is what has brought this issue to the fore. But it IS a little absurd how much attention it is getting.

[tod evans]

No, but that's a different issue. People have the 1st Amendment right to fly the Confederate flag on private property. This is just an issue about whether the Confederate flag should be flown on property owned by the government.

If you're not from SC then you have no say in what that states government does.

If you see one flying over your state capitol then you have cause to get all flustered.

This is absolutely not an issue for the feds. (Although it might spark a few states to buck a little)

[Carlybee]

No, but that's a different issue. People have the 1st Amendment right to fly the Confederate flag on private property. This is just an issue about whether the Confederate flag should be flown on property owned by the government.


If the majority of taxpayers want it to stay...what then? ( I don't know what that consensus is)
The government being of, by and for the people...presumedly.

[Pericles]

Hey look, another Yankee telling people in other states how to live! :rolleyes: Over 150 years and some things are still the same.

This thread reflects sectional differences that persist to this day. One example:

“I speak to Cobb and he tells me he is a Georgian; to Floyd, and he tells me his a Virginian; to you, and you tell me you are a Carolinian. I am not a Michigander; I am a citizen of the United States.”
Secretary of State Lewis Cass for President Buchanan

Southerners have long considered the USA to be a collection of independent states, rather than one nation split into state administrative districts. Loyalty went bottom to top in order of priority. Northerners went the opposite direction - Loyalty first to the US and then down .....

Another observation - Southerners consider conflict nothing unusual, and Northerners consider conflict a failure of societal mechanisms. The Southern view - "Hey, there is going to be a fight! Which side do we take?" while the Northerners viewed the same situation as "A fight? What went wrong, and what does that have to do with us."

This observation came from a nurse who was in the Army in World War II.

[jonhowe]

If the majority of taxpayers want it to stay...what then? ( I don't know what that consensus is)
The government being of, by and for the people...presumedly.

Then it will likely stay. People should WANT it to come down because they're decent and care about their fellow South Carolinians.



If you're not from SC then you have no say in what that states government does.

If you see one flying over your state capitol then you have cause to get all flustered.

This is absolutely not an issue for the feds. (Although it might spark a few states to buck a little)

Again. Who is saying this is an issue for the feds? This is an issue of decency, not law or authority. It's offensive to a large segment of the public; the right thing to do is not fly it on state property.

[tod evans]

Again. Who is saying this is an issue for the feds? This is an issue of decency, not law or authority. It's offensive to a large segment of the public; the right thing to do is not fly it on state property.

Obviously people in SC feel differently.

[enhanced_deficit]

What is my nefarious motive?


Not nefarious but might be slippery slope motive. If family members/supporters of children killed by dgp's drone attacks also wanted removal of US flag, will US flags be disappeared from tax payers funded poles?

http://i.guim.co.uk/static/w-620/h--/q-95/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2013/12/31/1388519770946/42a8baee-e4ee-4dee-b70b-a53a2c2705a0-620x372.jpeg
http://axisoflogic.com/artman/uploads/2/obama-flag_burning_in_kabul_univ_students-480.jpg



Sunday, November 11, 2012

No Drones Wisconsin

No Drones: Lars explains the upside down American flag



http://nodroneswisconsin.blogspot.co...side-down.html

[Carlybee]

Then it will likely stay. People should WANT it to come down because they're decent and care about their fellow South Carolinians.




Again. Who is saying this is an issue for the feds? This is an issue of decency, not law or authority. It's offensive to a large segment of the public; the right thing to do is not fly it on state property.


Moralize much? Who is to tell others what the "right" thing to do is? And if you don't think this isn't going to end up being a federal mandate, you haven't been paying attention to what has been happening at the federal level much.

[wizardwatson]

It's very hard for most people, myself included, to see the difference between fighting for that flag (which represented a new nation founded in order to maintain a way of life that included slavery) and fighting for slavery. Many Nazis weren't fighting for Hitler's ideology, but for their homeland. That doesn't mean it's fine and dandy to fly nazi flags (though, it should be legal).

You're totally right, though, about war and money.

Not picking on you, but to make a point...

NEWSFLASH

The flag currently flying represents slavery. And oppression. And war. And corruption. The Civil War didn't get rid of the plantation. It just moved the Afro's to the big house. The cotton fields got outsourced. Instead of cotton it's electronics, instead of whips it's suicide nets. All American's were purchased officially by their slaver bankers in 1913. Before that we were owned by proxy.

People who get upset about stupid crap like a flag, as I said, miss the point. Sure the Nazi flag is shameful, but only because Germany lost. If they'd won, it would no doubt be a symbol of freedom and righteousness. The American flag IS THE NAZI FLAG.

I repeat.

THE AMERICAN FLAG IS THE NAZI FLAG.

You must apply justice to the whole earth and do triage with respect to who actually is oppressed the most. It isn't American blacks, it isn't the gays, it isn't Israeli Jews. When we pander to these pet issues of our closest neighbors we only do the Nazi's work for them. You must strike the root. Every time you don't and you pander you only create more dissonance.

[r3volution 3.0]

Let's be honest. Demands to take down the Battle Flag have more than to do with smashing any remaining vestiges of defiance that still exist in the South than any perceived offenses.

Bingo. Anyone who thinks politicians are deeply, personally, offended by slavery and therefore want to remove the flag needs to stop huffing glue.

They simply don't like it because it's a reminder that, once upon a time, people actually resisted the federal leviathan.

That's what the whole "history" of the civil war is about - giving the federalist cause moral cover via the slavery issue.

It's no different than any other nonsense war propaganda.


How some of you support the Confederacy is beyond me. Slavery and the Confederacy is the antithesis to liberty. You also don't have to be a supporter of Abraham Lincoln and the north to realize how awful the Confederacy was.

Does the same apply to the founders and the first war of independence?

Or, for that matter, virtually every society in human history prior to the mid 19th century?

Are they all to be unconditionally condemned because they had slavery?

We cannot recognize something pro-liberty and valuable in, say, ancient Greece, Rome, or the Venetian Republic - since they all permitted slavery?


It's not true that the Civil War was entirely about slavery, and that the north was fighting to free the slaves and the south was fighting to preserve slavery. Obviously it's far more complex than that. But neither is it true that the Civil War had nothing to do with slavery as some claim. The truth is more nuanced and is somewhere in between. The north didn't use slavery as a reason for fighting the Civil War until near the very end of the war, and it's not likely that the north in the beginning wanted to fight the war in order to end slavery. At the same time, the south did indeed secede from the union mostly to preserve slavery, as they stated in their written documents detailing why they wanted to secede.

Secession was not at all about preserving slavery. The slavery question was a source of tension between North and South, but - since secession would obviously have undermined rather than helped preserve slavery - the preservation of slavery was not the material goal which the South hoped to achieve by seceding. That material goal was, rather, to escape the Morrill Tariff. Eliminating most tariffs was the first item of business for the South after secession. And that, incidentally, is why the Lincoln decided to invade the South and turn peaceful secession into war - to reimpose the tariff. Lincoln says this explicitly in his inaugural - he will invade the South to collect the tax. And so he did.

Why had South Carolina nearly succeeded in 1828 (hint: not about slavery)?

And why did New York City nearly succeed in 1861 along with the South (hint: not about slavery)?

And why did Lincoln endorse the Corwin amendment (hint: not because he was an abolitionist!)?

...and many other facts which make a mockery of the thesis that slavery was the cause.

See the thread (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?465331-Did-the-Confederacy-really-secede-over-quot-states-rights-quot&p=5817139&viewfull=1#post5817139) I linked earlier, where all this is documented at length from primary sources.


Yeah, people on this forum are defending the views of people who are most likely the same people who booed Ron in the SC GOP debate for saying that our government should follow the golden rule in foreign policy.

:rolleyes:

The South of today bears virtually no resemblance to that of 1861.

The people there are the biological descendents of the confederates, but their religion, culture, and ideology are totally changed (much for the worse).

[AuH20]

Mike Church's Response On Facebook. Whoa!


I will spare all of you the agony of watching South Carolina descend into a satire of moral courage by beating up on a 2 ft x 4 ft rectangular piece of poly-cotton dyed with Indigo and scarlet ink. Logic dictates that flags are inanimate objects that are neither racist nor sexually active. Cloak yourself in one that blasphemes against the beauty of God's creation called the rainbow and you are a Saint. Cloak yourself, nay get within a city block of another [flag] that honors and distinguishes the graves of 450,000 men, women and children killed in an UnJust war and you are "symbol of hate". I have a suggestion for the phony sympathizers outraged at the "loss of black life" (a genuine tragedy). Find an abortion clinic near you to weep and demand an end to the killing of innocent life of ALL races and the monsters that perpetrate the crimes, no flag is needed.

[AuH20]

RINO Haley to call for removal of flag...

http://jezebel.com/sc-governor-will-reportedly-call-for-confederate-flag-t-1713064673

[AuH20]

National Burn the Confederate Flag Day.....................June 27th....................Let them have their fun.

https://www.facebook.com/events/864638520287156/


America is reeling over the racist massacre of 9 black parishioners who had opened their doors and accepted in their killer only an hour earlier. The country was shocked by the assassination of state senator Clementa Pinckney, who served as pastor of the historic church in Charleston, S.C. In mourning, flags all across America were lowered to half-mast to remember the innocent lives lost solely due to the color of their skin.

But one flag still flaps high and proud above South Carolina. It is the flag of slavery, the flag of treason. It's the flag of lynching and the flag of the KKK. It's the flag that was waved proudly during segregation and outside of church burnings.

The Confederate flag is not the flag of states' rights. It's the flag of racism, and it flew high as a young, angry, ignorant white man murdered 9 innocent African Americans -- just as it flew over countless racist killings before.

The Confederate flag has flown in America for 150 years too long. The Civil War is long over. Fortunately, our First Amendment right gives us the power of free speech that will allow us to display our feelings by burning the flag of slavery from sea to shining sea. Join us for a PEACEFUL DAY OF PROTEST and burn the Confederate flag.

This is our day to demonstrate that it is no longer acceptable to fly this flag anywhere. Organize a Confederate flag burning event in your area on Saturday, June 27th, and flood social media with pictures and videos using the hashtags #FeelTheBurn and #TakeItDown

Remember that we want PEACEFUL and LAWFUL protests!!

Demonstrate LOUD and CLEAR to the nation, and to the world, that America will no longer allow state-sponsored racism to find aid and comfort on our noble shores.

#FeelTheBurn #TakeItDown

"Stars and Bars," your time is up.

[FloralScent]

What is my nefarious motive?


(A: To not rub salt in the wounds of others.)


False wounds, entirely created by the PTB through an intense campaign of indoctrination over the last 50 years or so. Why? The Confederate flag is a symbol of rebellion against centralized authority and the Empire will not tolerate the existence of such symbols, and in fact encourages violence against those who would display them. I don't believe you have a nefarious motive, you're just not real smart, or extremely young and naive.

[RonPaulMall]

That's acceptable in my eyes, but I find it strange how this entire Roof situation immediately turned to the Confederate flag. It's almost like these activists don't care that Roof was on suboxone.

Well, if you actually read his manifesto, it was mostly the virulent anti-white propaganda of the MSM that motivated him. So they had a vested interest in changing the topic to some random irrelevancy.

[Carlybee]

Next up...if you don't worship the American flag...you are a traitor.

[wizardwatson]

Mike Church's Response On Facebook. Whoa!


I will spare all of you the agony of watching South Carolina descend into a satire of moral courage by beating up on a 2 ft x 4 ft rectangular piece of poly-cotton dyed with Indigo and scarlet ink. Logic dictates that flags are inanimate objects that are neither racist nor sexually active. Cloak yourself in one that blasphemes against the beauty of God's creation called the rainbow and you are a Saint. Cloak yourself, nay get within a city block of another [flag] that honors and distinguishes the graves of 450,000 men, women and children killed in an UnJust war and you are "symbol of hate". I have a suggestion for the phony sympathizers outraged at the "loss of black life" (a genuine tragedy). Find an abortion clinic near you to weep and demand an end to the killing of innocent life of ALL races and the monsters that perpetrate the crimes, no flag is needed.



Pretty much in line with my initial thoughts.

And to top it all off Obama is going to give the eulogy. So Dylann the murderer prays with them. And now gay marriage pushing drone gangsta atheist Obama is going to stand above Hillary supporting pastors dead body in God's house and school us on how great a man he was and how Jesus isn't the sacrificial lamb but all 9 of those [alleged] God-deniers were.

[enhanced_deficit]

... And now gay marriage pushing drone gangsta atheist Obama is going to stand above Hillary supporting pastors dead body in God's house and school us on how great a man he was and how Jesus isn't the sacrificial lamb but all 9 of those [alleged] God-deniers were.

This comment reminded me of this protester sign from old Time mag story:





https://timedotcom.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/dronesprotester_rtr3nfrl_reuters.jpg?quality=65&strip=color&w=1100 Lucas Jackson—Reuters A demonstrator holds up a sign protesting the Obama administration's use of drones, in New York, May 1, 2014

[liveandletlive]

BOTH flags are a disgrace. when I think Confederacy i think of a state that failed to protect individual rights, had a monetary policy that lead to hyperinflation, instituted a draft (the first one in US history).

When i think "old glory" i think imperialism and interventionist foreign policy. A government bought and sold by the corporate lobbyists and crony capitalist who wield their power by bullying small 3rd world countries.

Now if those "good old boys" actually were consistent in their belief in states rights, maybe i'd be more sympathetic. They wanted the Feds to protect their own interests when they needed them.

[Aratus]

Mitt Romney utilized the word "immediately" in his recent tweet and voiced his anger and outrage over the shooting. Governor Haley by now bringing a new focus on the flag is opening up the debate once more as she clearly indicates how close a political ally she is to Gentleman Mitt! Jack Hunter is an intelligent man. He says what he thinks. He just laid out a major insight. "I now have different priorities. Dylann Roof is a reminder of what’s at stake." Kids like Dylann Roof must be talked to. Right after May of 1865 our Civil War ends, in part because Jefferson Davis is captured by Union troops after he leaves Abbeville, South Carolina. I looked at the film COPPERHEAD online because I missed my opportunity to see the film in a local movie house. Likewise, THE CONSPIRATOR, the "indie" film that Robert Redford directed so well and competantly in a theater near me is another missed opportunity. I really liked the fine British actor who plays out the role of Reverdy Johnson! Its easy to feel sorry for Mary Surratt, or even ask, if Andrew Johnson was to later on in that year by X~mas or New Years hand out a partial or full presidential pardon to so many Confederates, why did he hold back in terms of Doctor Samuel Mudd, Mary Surratt and George Adzerodt? Answer --- Andrew Johnson was a very contrary Tennessee Scalawag of a politician, loyal to a fault to Honest Abe but often delighting in the way we could get his opponents PO'ed. He often quarreled with Senator Jefferson Davis and was never known to have worshipped the ground he walked on. Andrew Johnson did his darndest to keep Tennessee in the Union. If one is vaguely familar with both the Presidential Reconstruction and then the Congressional Reconstruction that follows on the heels of the election of 1866 one has seen the adjective RADICAL modifying the word Republican, and one can get confused. The political stances taken by today's LIBERAL REPUBLICANs are very similar to the stances taken by Senator Charles Sumner, who by definition IS a Radical Republican. Not many GOP people after the time of William McKinley are being described as a being a Radical Republican. Senator Ed Brooke is a Liberal Republican. Mitt Romney is a Centrist Republican. His tweet does not change this. Clearly John Hunter is being less the politician and more like the great Irish statesman Edmund Burke who was aghast at what the French Revolution did to France and then defined Toryism in a good way as well as Conservatism here and in the U.K! Sometimes in a manner like Edmund Burke one finds oneself ceasing to be as Whig as one becomes more Tory. Sometimes one has to say when things are becoming sadly violent, whether on a small scale or a much greater scale. I am not trying to lump this recent tragedy in with Columbine or the shooting in Newtown, Connecticut a few years back and simply say guns are to blame. Its more than this. There is a climate of hatred that some people are more open to, hense why our POTUS suggested the other day that the flag belongs in a museum. Over the last few weeks and months I've been following events in the U.K and was delightfully fascinated by the pomp and ceremony that reburied the mortal remains of RICHARD III. Between 2o12 and 2o15 I've been looking at online episodes of America Unearthed and the controversy about the Kensington Rune Stone. Normally our great Civil War is remembered in great detail by all re-enactors, they take great pride in getting their equipment and uniforms correct. Small details are important. Just the other day the U.K celebrated the 800th anniversary of the very reluctant signing of the Magna Carta by King John at Runnymede. In 1485 the wrong king may have won the battle of Bosworth Field, and the same can be said about 1066 and Harold Godwinson, who Edward the Confessor wanted as his sworn heir! I'm bringing up 1492 also, and how often Scott Wolter thinks a European got to our Western Hemisphere shores well long before Christopher Columbus. In my minds eye I was comparing 1485 to 1066, and as I was going into Riii related Facebook sites and webpages, i encountered a geneology. In Spain, prior to the union of Aragon and Castile, at least ten kings with the name Alfonso ruled Castile. Richard III has Alfonso X of Spain as an ancestor. I had thought of him as being French or Norman French but not as being part Castilian! Freshly from this ancient lore i was when i looked at the two photos online that show Dylann Roof next to the date 1488 in the sand. Well I knew that Francis Lovell tries to organize a revolt against HENRY TUDOR but it is in 1487, and is put down. Henry VII when on the English throne tends to act like King John, his ancient ancestor. He likes to have heavy taxes placed on England's peasants and yeoman farmers. Any positive social reforms that happened under either Edward IV or Richard III run the risk of being rolled back under Henry Tudor. He can be said to be England's last truly Catholic king, which if we discuss kings who both reign and rule, we start to articulate out the thought that poor Richard the Third was the second to last Catholic monarch of any significance before the Reformation and Henry the Eighth! I view Dylann Roof as a classic example of the way our public school can fail the people who go through it. I know why Mitt Romney expressed himself on Twitter in the manner he did, please keep in mind he could run in 2o2o if Senator Rand Paul sits that one out. He'd get 60% of the vote in 2o2o because he, Governor Haley and Barack Obama are in an agreement on this. I'm backing Jack Hunter to every ounce of my being, he is very correct on this! Yes, lets honour the fallen dead with their appropriate flags who fight and fell for the South, but let us also humour the idea if we do not understand the reasons why we fought our great Civil War we may doom our descendents to fight things out in a repeat performance of the events of 1861 to 1865 if we ever become as polarized again on an issue of the day. As i said before, I have my reasons as to why the better king dies on Bosworth Field, even if we skim over the House of Tudor, we find that the mid-1600s saw a very polarizing Civil War in the U.K and it is no coincidence many of dscendents of the people who backed York or Lancaster either went very Royalist or very Roundhead when trying to see where England was going. In time, as the Puritans lost out, their supporters tended to emigrate here NORTH of the Mason-Dixon line, even if their Royalist and very Cavalier cousins and kin would emigrate SOUTH of the Mason-Dixon line. The power we hand to our POTUS at the federal level is akin to the legitimate degree and level of authority handed to England's kings from the time of Emperor Constantine the Great and King Arthur onwards. If we are ethnically English or British, we have ancestors who grumbled about, protested or hated heavy, unjust and high handed taxes. This sums up everything from the Doomsday book to now. I am more focused on 1066, 1485 and even 1688 if i try to ignore 1775 or 1776. The two photos of Dylann Roof scrawling out his version of 1488 in beach sand is part of our national tragedy. Lets break apart and fragment away this polarizing political cycle of more than a thousand years duration, that in time did evolve the Whig and Tory parties of Edmund Burke's day in a good way. If we cannot break what is an ancestral pattern, we may be dooming everyone's descendants to something worse than what has gone before. I admire Jack Hunter for his logic and his honesty. He understands John Locke much better than most of us here...

http://drmudd.org/

[FloralScent]

http://www.addictinginfo.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/stupid_confederate_flag.jpg

I was going to wish a brain tumor on you but I may be too late.

[VIDEODROME]

I was going to wish a brain tumor on you but I may be too late.

Uhhh... ok :confused:

http://www.homerbackingintothings.com/static/images/homer.gif

[Rudeman]

Eh I don't worship a flag so it really doesn't matter to me. I mean from a strictly optics pov (ignoring anything the flag stands for) I would say the battle flag looks better but that's about it.

[Southron]

A people without a heritage are easily persuaded. -Karl Marx

[r3volution 3.0]

Even if you don't understand/care-about the confederacy, you ought to be seriously concerned about this move.

We're rapidly losing the ability to say anything evenly remotely controversial (read: true and critical of the state).

Where are the Voltaireans, as it were: I may disagree with what you say, but I'll fight to the death for your right to say it.

Anyone, anyone...Bueller?

O...that's only for PC (state approved) topics? I see...

[sparebulb]

Even if you don't understand/care-about the confederacy, you ought to be seriously concerned about this move.

We're rapidly losing the ability to say anything evenly remotely controversial (read: true and critical of the state).

Where are the Voltaireans, as it were: I may disagree with what you say, but I'll fight to the death for your right to say it.

Anyone, anyone...Bueller?

O...that's only for PC (state approved) topics? I see...

The R's know just as well as the D's that sometimes you just have to break a few eggs.....

[Rudeman]

Even if you don't understand/care-about the confederacy, you ought to be seriously concerned about this move.

We're rapidly losing the ability to say anything evenly remotely controversial (read: true and critical of the state).

Where are the Voltaireans, as it were: I may disagree with what you say, but I'll fight to the death for your right to say it.

Anyone, anyone...Bueller?

O...that's only for PC (state approved) topics? I see...

I agree with this but I also don't understand the strong attachment to the flag. I mean it being just a piece of fabric argument goes both ways. Still I strongly support everyone having the right to display it, wear it etc. if they want. I can understand both sides of the argument when it comes to the flag at the state's capital/memorial? site.


Personally I hate when people try to force their views onto others so I'd be more likely to support the non-PC position. I just wouldn't wish a brain tumor on someone who disagreed.

[r3volution 3.0]

I agree with this but I also don't understand the strong attachment to the flag....

It's a symbol.

For those of us defending it, it means basically the original American republic - which the South seceded to preserve.

To the ignorant leftists (but I repeat myself) it means racism and/or an obstacle to totalitarian federal control.

This episode is a proxy fight between libertarianism and socialism as far as I'm concerned.

[Rudeman]

It's a symbol.

For those of us defending it, it means basically the original American republic - which the South seceded to preserve.

To the ignorant leftists (but I repeat myself) it means racism and/or an obstacle to totalitarian federal control.

This episode is a proxy fight between libertarianism and socialism as far as I'm concerned.

And that's fine, to me it's just a flag and to you and others it's a lot more than that. I would never want to tell someone what they can and can't find important.

Really I would probably push things to the other extreme and take down the American flag claiming I find it offensive (whether I did or not). It is the Rebel flag, might as well rebel right? I mean slavery existed before the Civil War under the American flag, the American's pushed a great genocide on Native Americans under the American flag, the Americans segregated even after the Civil War under the American flag, the Americans put the Japanese in internment camps under the American flag etc.




the Americans = the American government.

[TheCount]

Even if you don't understand/care-about the confederacy, you ought to be seriously concerned about this move.

We're rapidly losing the ability to say anything evenly remotely controversial (read: true and critical of the state).


This is about official speech of the state, not personal speech.


The ability of the state to speak in support of or against anything at all should be extremely limited. The state should not fly the confederate flag, the pride flag, the flag of the team that won the superbowl, or any other.

[Origanalist]

Next up...if you don't worship the American flag...you are a traitor.

Next? No, it's here.

[Origanalist]

In the context of this discussion where we are talking about formally displaying the Union Flag with the State Flag in front state capitol buildings, no. Like it or not, that Flag is just showing my state as being part of the United States even if the behavior of this nation sometimes makes you want to barf in your mouth a little when.

But why display a flag for a Confederacy that doesn't exist anymore? What is the state trying to say here going out of they're way to display a symbol connected with either Slavery or Secession?

Also, I'm partly biased here for some reason, but I just strongly connect this symbol rednecks. It just think it would be a good PR move for them to take down this flag.

Two things;

1. What's bad about secession?

2. Truthfully if I had to chose between a bunch of rednecks and these self righteous hypocrites demanding the flag be taken down I would have to go with the rednecks.

[wizardwatson]

It's a symbol.

For those of us defending it, it means basically the original American republic - which the South seceded to preserve.

To the ignorant leftists (but I repeat myself) it means racism and/or an obstacle to totalitarian federal control.

This episode is a proxy fight between libertarianism and socialism as far as I'm concerned.

Yep.

And what we may be seeing is the Babylonians finally trying to flush us all out and get rid of us.

Appears to be working.

[Occam's Banana]

Two things;

1. What's bad about secession?

2. Truthfully if I had to chose between a bunch of rednecks and these self righteous hypocrites demanding the flag be taken down I would have to go with the rednecks.

Two more things:

3. What's bad about secession?

4. What's bad about secession?

[Origanalist]

Two more things:

3. What's bad about secession?

4. What's bad about secession?

Well, it's racist. Or something. Oh yeah, and unpatriotic, traitorous and stuff.

[Ronin Truth]

Hey Mitt.

"Don't have a cow, Man!" -- Bart Simpson