Gold-Backed Debit Card

[helmuth_hubener]

Would any of you be interested in using a gold-backed debit card?

That is, you'd have an account of gold. You would own the gold, not dollars. Upon swiping the card to pay for your meal or shopping or whatever (or having it auto-debited to pay for rent or electricity) dollars would be transferred to the merchant, as normal. It would seem just like a normal transaction to them. The card would be accepted everywhere Visa is accepted.

The gold-to-dollar conversion would be automatic behind the scenes, taken care of by the card so you don't have to do anything.

Would you use such a thing? Would you prefer to keep your money in gold rather than a bank account denominated in dollars?

I'd love to hear any thoughts and opinions. I'd use it but only if it had such-and-such? Needs this feature or that? Stupid idea? I want to know!

[P3ter_Griffin]

Put me down as 'would use' ;). You didn't describe how you'd ascertain the gold to US dollar conversion, so I'm assuming you'd use the futures price. I think that is a faulty price, because individuals with open contracts on expiration date do not have to complete their side of the contract, sellers don't have to posses or have the means to posses the gold they are 'selling', and buyers don't have to accept delivery of gold they are 'buying'. So I would yearn for better price discovery, if that is in fact how you'd get pricing.

[helmuth_hubener]

Cool, thanks, Peter.

It would be the current spot price, not the futures price. This is widely available everywhere, like so:

http://goldprice.org/NewCharts/gold/images/gold_1d_k_USD.png

This may not be the perfect price, but it is the price that one can buy and sell gold for on the world market. Would you want the debit card to convert at a higher gold price, or lower? Or, different in some other way that you might be able to explain? I just am not sure what you're envisioning.

[presence]

This concept is already available in bitcoin.

[presence]

Would you want the debit card to convert at a higher gold price, or lower? Or, different in some other way that you might be able to explain? I just am not sure what you're envisioning.

spot price can swing wildly; often something such as 1h hl/2 or 1h hlc/3 is used; or 2 hour moving average etc.

[helmuth_hubener]

Whoops, I don't think gold is at $38,000/oz just yet today. I guess that is not a live link. How about this instead:

http://www.kitco.com/LFgif/au3650nys.gif (http://www.kitco.com/charts/livegold.html)

[NoOneButPaul]

This concept is already available in bitcoin.

Too bad Bitcoin has no tangible value.

Ever since I heard David Morgan talk about this idea (Apparently this debit card system is how people use Gold and Silver as money in Utah where it's recognized as legal tender) I knew it was the wave of the future to bringing down the dollar system.

GoldMoney also recently went full on into BitGold which is apparently trying to combine the ease of using bitcoins while actually having a valuable backing to it.

Getting gold and silver electronic, and NOT ALLOWING ANYONE to fractionally reserve the physical, is the best chance we have at exiting the system.

You can completely destroy a government if you figure out a real way to transact outside of it.

[helmuth_hubener]

This concept is already available in bitcoin.
Really? Where? There are bitcoin cards, kind of, couple guys in Canada as I recall for one, but no Visa (nor any other common card) card that one could pay for things in dollars and yet have the balance denominated in bitcoin. That's that I knew of. Things are rapidly evolving in the bitcoin world.

[helmuth_hubener]

spot price can swing wildly; often something such as 1h hl/2 or 1h hlc/3 is used;

Often used where, by whom?

[NoOneButPaul]

spot price can swing wildly; often something such as 1h hl/2 or 1h hlc/3 is used; or 2 hour moving average etc.

The exact same thing can be said about bitcoin and people are using it and accepting it just fine.

Bitcoin has given us the blueprint to the future (open source, p2p, etc.) but the coin itself is worthless. When people figure out a way to incorporate bitcoin's foundations into gold and silver the world is never going to be the same.

[P3ter_Griffin]

Cool, thanks, Peter.

It would be the current spot price, not the futures price. This is widely available everywhere, like so:

http://goldprice.org/NewCharts/gold/images/gold_1d_k_USD.png

This may not be the perfect price, but it is the price that one can buy and sell gold for on the world market. Would you want the debit card to convert at a higher gold price, or lower? Or, different in some other way that you might be able to explain? I just am not sure what you're envisioning.

I am unsure how spot price is figured. I believe it starts with the 'gold fix' a couple of times a day, but then is it actual transactions where gold and dollars are changing hands that are reflected in the price movements? I'm unsure, I'd have to read about it a bit more.

I don't have any desire for specific US denominated gold prices, I just think there would be better price discovery if both parties were actually interested in completing the transaction. This may very well be the case with spot price though, and either way isn't a reflection on a 'gold backed debit card', just what tools you'd have available for the conversion rate.

[helmuth_hubener]

GoldMoney also recently went full on into BitGold
WOW! Thanks for this news! I had not heard at all! GoldMoney was purchased by BitGold. There are no remaining DGC (digital gold currency) news outlets really remaining, at least not active, so not too surprising I hadn't heard. Didn't even know a deal was being considered. Anyway, that is very interesting.

NoOneButPaul, would you want a gold-backed debit card? Would you use it as your main account, or just for novelty? Or not interested at all?

[presence]

Often used where, by whom?

I deal with bitcoin a lot; an example there is coinbase, prior to being an exchange, they allowed you to buy or sell bitcoin at an "average" price.


https://support.coinbase.com/customer/portal/articles/1404311-why-is-the-price-on-coinbase-different-from-other-websites-

Seeing as you're not operating an "exchange" spot price really isn't what you're after. You're offering banking services; similar to what coinbase was prior to becoming an exchange.

bitpay is another example of a derived price is a similar business environment to what you're proposing:

https://bitpay.com/bitcoin-exchange-rates#bbb


BitPay consolidates market depth from multiple exchanges to provide buyers with a Bitcoin Best Bid (BBB) exchange rate. We currently calculate the BBB based on bitcoin/US Dollar rates because of maximum liquidity.
To calculate the exchange rate for US Dollars, we pull the market depth from exchanges with adequate liquidity and withdrawal capability in USA and the Eurozone. The exchange order books are merged into a Consolidated Level II table.
Exchange rates for non-USD currencies are provided by the Open Exchange Rates API (http://openexchangerates.org) at the time the invoice is generated.
The BBB is calculated by simulating an auto-routing market sell order, across all exchanges, with zero commission fees. Buyers will always get a better value by spending their bitcoins at a BitPay merchant than by selling them on an exchange.




Here's an example of a company that already offers gold backed debit cards (not offering service to US residents):

http://www.safehaven.com/article/24584/how-to-put-yourself-on-the-gold-standard


It is always converted at the daily exchange rates.

So they're converting at "daily close"


Spot prices are continually changing -- they fluctuate according to varying supply and demand. To mitigate the risk of continuously changing prices, investors created derivatives. Derivatives such as forwards, futures (http://www.investinganswers.com/financial-dictionary/optionsderivatives/futures-1002) and options allow buyers and sellers to "lock in" the price at which they buy or sell an asset in the future. Locking in prices with derivatives is one of the most common ways investors reduce risk.

http://www.investinganswers.com/financial-dictionary/stock-market/spot-price-2007



so

"spot" speaks in terms of settling at a specific point of time in the future; we'll settle this at the end of the day closing price; we'll settle this at the "last" price at the time you click "buy".

This can be very dangerous because price may only be at "spot" for a brief moment; it has the potential to be an outlier and leave you liable. Perhaps only 2 grams of gold actually sold at a peak spot price.... but your customer makes a million dollar purchase with their debit card at that flashing moment when price is really high.

You wouldn't want to be liable for a financial condition that lasted a split second; it would be much more prudent to price in terms of a moving average.

http://i.imgur.com/QKGKfTB.png

[presence]

The exact same thing can be said about bitcoin and people are using it and accepting it just fine.

Bitcoin has given us the blueprint to the future (open source, p2p, etc.) but the coin itself is worthless. When people figure out a way to incorporate bitcoin's foundations into gold and silver the world is never going to be the same.


yes but that's peer to peer via exchange pricing.


He's talking about being an 3rd party intermediary between gold and dollars; making payments in dollars on behalf of deposits held in gold. Its impossible to liquidate real time at spot price. Spot price reflects the price of the last transaction not the next.

[presence]

This concept is already available in bitcoin.

I'm not sure what your options are in the US; but the EU is loaded with options

bitpay, xapo, coinkite, anxbitcoin, etc.


https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1001849.0

[helmuth_hubener]

I deal with bitcoin a lot; an example there is coinbase, prior to being an exchange, they allowed you to buy or sell bitcoin at an "average" price.
Gotcha. Thanks. My concept is a little different.

[helmuth_hubener]

I'm not sure what your options are in the US; but the EU is loaded with options

bitpay, xapo, coinkite, anxbitcoin, etc.


https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1001849.0

Awesome, thank you so much, presence! Yeah, I'm out of it. Those look like some solid options. Here they are:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CA5gmpZW4AAdmG2.png

Presence, what if there were a card like that with no ordering fee, monthly fee, no transaction fee, and free global ATM withdrawals?

And what if you could choose to have it backed by gold or bitcoin, or whatever mix of both you wish?

Would you personally be interested in using it?

[presence]

Presence, what if there were a card like that with

no ordering fee, monthly fee, no transaction fee, and free global ATM withdrawals?

And what if you could choose to have it backed by gold or bitcoin, or whatever mix of both you wish?

Would you personally be interested in using it?

One time when I was a little kid my uncle asked me what kind of ice cream I wanted; strawberry? chocolate? vanilla? mint chip? I was excited. Then he told me he was fucking with me and didn't have any icecream.

[heavenlyboy34]

Too bad Bitcoin has no tangible value.

Ever since I heard David Morgan talk about this idea (Apparently this debit card system is how people use Gold and Silver as money in Utah where it's recognized as legal tender) I knew it was the wave of the future to bringing down the dollar system.

GoldMoney also recently went full on into BitGold which is apparently trying to combine the ease of using bitcoins while actually having a valuable backing to it.

Getting gold and silver electronic, and NOT ALLOWING ANYONE to fractionally reserve the physical, is the best chance we have at exiting the system.

You can completely destroy a government if you figure out a real way to transact outside of it.
Nothing has tangible value (or "intrinsic" value). All value is subjective. Austrian econ FTW. :cool:

[heavenlyboy34]

btw, WRT OP, I'd use a 100% gold card. I imagine whoever creates such a thing would also devise a way to instantly convert FRNs via some device to gold so's to calculate prices in real time.

[helmuth_hubener]

One time when I was a little kid my uncle asked me what kind of ice cream I wanted; strawberry? chocolate? vanilla? mint chip? I was excited. Then he told me he was messing with me and didn't have any icecream.

LOL, this answer is sufficient. :D Assuming you like ice cream. There's going to be a catch, maybe more than one catch, but what I'm thinking of is doable. I'm just gauging interest. Doesn't seem like a lot.

Then again, RPF may be kind of dead.

Is there a bitcoin venue that would be more informative to gauge the actual interest level that you'd recommend? Do you think that a very large number of bitcoin people are interested in gold, or more of a fringe, rare thing?

[presence]

You might want to talk to the people from amagi metals about where they market, etc.

[osan]

When people figure out a way to incorporate bitcoin's foundations into gold and silver the world is never going to be the same.

In principle, this is not a difficult thing. If gold and silver become the global standard for money and is honestly and transparently administered (good luck on that last bit), then whatever the official global monetary pool of gold and silver might at a given time would represent the total number of bitcoins floating about. The ratio gives you the value of gold in terms of bitcoins and bitcoins in terms of gold.

One question in my mind is whether the "official" global monetary gold stock should be held constant the way the number of bitcoins is supposed to.

[osan]

One time when I was a little kid my uncle asked me what kind of ice cream I wanted; strawberry? chocolate? vanilla? mint chip? I was excited. Then he told me he was fucking with me and didn't have any icecream.

And you've hated him ever since?

[presence]

And you've hated him ever since?

No we're good now... he comes to my house from time to time... Whenever he shows up, I offer Jack, Crown, Patron, Grey Goose... whatever he wants.

[muh_roads]

Too bad Bitcoin has no tangible value.

Ever since I heard David Morgan talk about this idea (Apparently this debit card system is how people use Gold and Silver as money in Utah where it's recognized as legal tender) I knew it was the wave of the future to bringing down the dollar system.

GoldMoney also recently went full on into BitGold which is apparently trying to combine the ease of using bitcoins while actually having a valuable backing to it.

Getting gold and silver electronic, and NOT ALLOWING ANYONE to fractionally reserve the physical, is the best chance we have at exiting the system.

You can completely destroy a government if you figure out a real way to transact outside of it.

You are talking about the Byzantine Generals' problem. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Generals%27_Problem

This has already been solved with bitcoin. Math is the backing and it shouldn't be downplayed. Not just the limited supply but more importantly it's the revolutionary breakthrough of solving the double-spend problem.

Adding gold to bitcoin introduces counterparty risk. Counterparty risk is a very important concept that shouldn't be ignored. It's no different than keeping bitcoins on an exchange. You have to trust someone else.

BTW bitgold doesn't use bitcoin as its payment rail. You can buy into bitgold with btc but they are not the same. It is a very centralized system that isn't available to many countries, including the US.

[helmuth_hubener]

btw, WRT OP, I'd use a 100% gold card.

HB, would you use a 90% one?

That is one of the "catches" I was mentioning to presence. It turns out having a card denominated and backed 90% in gold is a ton easier than having one backed 100% by gold. Would this be a deal-breaker for you? Or would you still consider it worthwhile to have your main financial account be (e.g.) $9,000 in gold and $1,000 in US dollars?

How about the rest of you?

[heavenlyboy34]

HB, would you use a 90% one?

That is one of the "catches" I was mentioning to presence. It turns out having a card denominated and backed 90% in gold is a ton easier than having one backed 100% by gold. Would this be a deal-breaker for you? Or would you still consider it worthwhile to have your main financial account be (e.g.) $9,000 in gold and $1,000 in US dollars?

How about the rest of you?
Actually, I don't see that as a problem. As it is, I don't have access to 100% of my checking or savings FRNs at any given time (Checking is ~96%, IDR savings ATM).
I reckon if even just 90% is gold, the purchasing power and stability long term would make up for it. :) Agreed?

[helmuth_hubener]

Bump.

[Krugminator2]

I'll take the unpopular view and say I would not. For one thing, the dollar has been very stable especially since the early 80's. Secondly, when people talk about the dollar losing 96% of its value since the creation of the Fed that doesn't mean someone who held dollars would lose 96% of their purchasing power by holding cash. For the majority of that time you could hold dollars in an interest bearing or treasuries that would roughly keep pace with inflation.

And why link the account the gold? Why not to equities? Equities went up, I think a million percent in the 1900's. The best book making the case is Triumph of the Optimists. It looks at the stock performance of every global index since their inception. Equities do very well in countries with inflation deflation credit defaults, etc. I also agree with this article that rips into Justin Amash which makes points that are somewhat related to why you might bring up the idea of a gold checking account. http://www.forbes.com/sites/johntamny/2014/03/02/rep-justin-amashs-libertarianism-will-greatly-disappoint-libertarians/

[thechitowncubs]

Vaultoro

[NoOneButPaul]

WOW! Thanks for this news! I had not heard at all! GoldMoney was purchased by BitGold. There are no remaining DGC (digital gold currency) news outlets really remaining, at least not active, so not too surprising I hadn't heard. Didn't even know a deal was being considered. Anyway, that is very interesting.

NoOneButPaul, would you want a gold-backed debit card? Would you use it as your main account, or just for novelty? Or not interested at all?

I would be very interested in helping this move forward. It would not be my main account at first until enough people accepted it (or just the right places like bitcoin) but I really do think it's the waive of the future.

And all you bitcoiners can say i'm wrong but the future will prove me right. It's the foundations of bitcoin (namely open source) that make it valuable. The coin itself is a pump and dump scheme that's destined to implode. I own 10 of them that i've had for many years but to me they're just something I need to sell when they get pumped again. 500 people own over half the coins (and they're the loudest cheerleaders feeding you all this BS and I should know the BS when I see it because I just spent the last 4 years watching PM shills do the same thing).

Gold introduces some counterparty risk but there's a ton of counterparty risk with bitcoin already (Silk road, hello? Mt. Gox, hello?) as I said before so long as the gold and/or silver were not fractionally reserved this would work just fine.

In fact with Texas just opening the first state wide bullion depository, that is EXEMPT from federal confiscation attempts, you could likely use them as your base of operations in the beginning.

[NoOneButPaul]

https://www.perpetualassets.com/silver-debit-card/

Well someone was listening... apparently this is becoming a reality. Still without truly understanding the vaulting service (and knowing it's not fractionally reserved) it's hard to trust it fully.

[H. E. Panqui]

Presence, what if there were a card like that with no ordering fee, monthly fee, no transaction fee, and free global ATM withdrawals?


:eek:

...sounds like we've found the holy grail of free lunche$!..;)...(btw, can i make my free global withdrawal in the gold:D...or the frn's/tokens:(..

...monetary reality...until/unless the rule$ are changed you will be controlled by the frn banksters...gold bugs and bitcoiners be damned...

...and if 'they' are forced to 'change,' :rolleyes: i submit 'they' will have already acquired all the gold/mines, etc. ad nauseam, 'they' will ever need.....

[helmuth_hubener]

Presence, what if there were a card like that with no ordering fee, monthly fee, no transaction fee, and free global ATM withdrawals?It sounds like we've found the holy grail of free lunches Nope, no free lunch; the lunch is paid for by many people, mostly by merchants who accept the card, ultimately.


Can I make my free global withdrawal in the gold:D...or the frn's/tokens:(.. Sorry, it's the frowny-face: FRNs. Or Euros, or Rupees, or whatever, if you're abroad. If you can find an ATM that dispenses gold, you could even do that. You may be able to find some in Germany, also a couple in Singapore, and one in Florida.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzb4uQZ9kyc


...monetary reality...until/unless the rule$ are changed you will be controlled by the frn banksters At some point in a man's life, he needs to take control of his own life, accept responsibility for his own life, start making bold choices for his own life, and stop whining incessantly about the choices and beliefs of others.

[H. E. Panqui]

At some point in a man's life, he needs to take control of his own life, accept responsibility for his own life, start making bold choices for his own life, and stop whining incessantly about the choices and beliefs of others.

:cool:

...?said the armed white ma$ter to the unarmed chained slave?..

a little hint helmuth, political bulletin boards and politics in general are rife with 'whining' (i refer to my assessment of your ideas as 'enlightened criticism')...you whine with the worst and best of us, helmuth..;)

...do yourself a favor and acquaint yourself with 'monetary realism'...it will change your whole outlook on thing$... ;)

[helmuth_hubener]

...said the armed white master to the unarmed chained slave

If you see me as a master and yourself as a helpless slave, that says more about your own psychological state than anything about reality. And what it says to me is: hapless; pathetic; contemptible; dead-end.

I am a master, and strive to be one ever more-so, but not of slaves.

[helmuth_hubener]

And if I had a slave, I would probably not choose you. :p

[H. E. Panqui]

:rolleyes:

...good grief, helmuth!...anyone knowledgeable about 'our' :rolleyes: stinking monetary order understands they are a $lave...your apparent lack of knowledge is troubling...as you seem intent on commenting on/proposing future 'improvement$' :rolleyes:...whilst unaware of the pre$ent and pa$t!..;)

“While boasting of our noble deeds we're careful to conceal
the ugly fact that by an iniquitous money system we have
nationalized a system of oppression which, though more refined,
is not less cruel than the old system of chattel slavery.”
― Horace Greeley (https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/648163.Horace_Greeley)

[heavenlyboy34]

Bump.

Now that you've bumped this, could you reply plz to the question I posed immediately before your bump?
Actually, I don't see that as a problem. As it is, I don't have access to 100% of my checking or savings FRNs at any given time (Checking is ~96%, IDR savings ATM).
I reckon if even just 90% is gold, the purchasing power and stability long term would make up for it. :) Agreed?
Thnx.

[helmuth_hubener]

Now that you've bumped this, could you reply plz to the question I posed immediately before your bump?
Thnx.
Oh, sorry, I missed it, HB! Thanks for re-asking; sorry to make you have to. :)

Your question is whether I agree that "if even just 90% is gold, the purchasing power and stability long term would make up for it". It depends what you mean by that. I do agree that whatever a 100% gold account would be doing, a 90% gold account is going to be doing something very similar, long-term. So yes, the purchasing power and stability of 90% gold 10% cash is going to be very close to the purchasing power and stability of 100% gold.

I do think that you need to be aware, however, that gold is not necessarily going to be more stable in terms of purchasing power than other assets, at least in the short and medium term. If you look at a chart of gold over the past year or even over ten, you will see that it's been quite volatile in terms of the dollar. Now, you could say that really it's the dollar that's been volatile in terms of gold, and that would be a fair point. Nevertheless, it means that your purchasing power to buy products with US dollar-denominated prices has fluctuated a great deal.

Over the last twenty years, and even over the last ten years, that fluctuation has very much been in gold's favor. The ounce of gold that could buy you about $350 dollar's-worth of goods in 1995 could buy you more like $450 in 2005 and more like $1,100 today. But shorter-term can be different. This past 12 months, for example, gold has fallen by about 10% against the dollar.

I just want you to be aware of the risks and realities. If you had a gold-denominated account linked to a debit card that you were using for all your financial needs as your main every-day payment card, you would have to be aware that you may deposit a paycheck worth $578.00 one day, and a week later -- without spending anything -- your account balance may be just $500. Or it could be $650. That would be an especially volatile week, but not unheard of in the gold market. You would, of course, still have the .5 ounces or so just exactly the same as when you deposited it. So in terms of gold, it would remain unchanged. With the 90% gold card I'm floating the idea of, the gain/loss would be dampened slightly: about $507/$643 instead of $500/$650.

Because of this volatility, you would need to have some amount of cushion, some amount of savings that is, so that the day-to-day volatility doesn't mess up your finances and make it difficult to pay your bills. You can't be living totally paycheck-to-paycheck. You have to have some savings, I'd say at minimum a month's worth (two would be better), and be regularly saving, say 10% of your income. That would mean your expenses are 10% less than your income. That would put you on sound enough financial footing to get such a card, otherwise I would not be comfortable recommending it.

What do you think? Still interested?

[helmuth_hubener]

stinking monetary order Don't you mean $tinking monetary order? Come on, Panqui, get it right! You lack of $ is troubling.

Anyway, if I am so ignorant of history -- and I will readily admit that I am! -- how about you teach me, and all the rest of us, what historical facts and episodes, specifically, you want us to become aware of? That's the thing about history: there's so much of it! It would be impossible for anyone to know anything but a very, very tiny percentage of it. But I am always happy to know more.

So, let us know!

[helmuth_hubener]

News flash:

BitGold just let me know that as of this morning, they are now allowing US citizens to open accounts.

Don't get too excited: despite the website, they do not actually have a payment card yet. So, it's just storage.

[H. E. Panqui]

how about you teach me, and all the rest of us, what historical facts and episodes, specifically, you want us to become aware of?

:rolleyes:

...probably not 'all' :rolleyes: the rest of 'us'...i'm pretty sure there are some monetary realists lurking here....you'd ALWAYS do well to speak for yourself only..btw, as one wag put it, 'in the end, we are all our own teachers'..it seems the best i can do is make you aware that you are unaware...(and i sense you are among the vast throng of unaware...btw, the worst are the academic economists..yuck!!..)...

...unaware of/oblivious to the basic realities of our stinking monetary order...blaming the real victims of this stinking monetary order, rather than working towards exposing/revealing/describing this hideou$ fraud to others...

..btw, i sense you are a decent sort---albeit maybe a little bit of whiner when you negged me and commented 'you make no sense' :rolleyes:...but i sense you are among the vast herd who doesn't understand they are servants to banksters...(you don't understand 'deposit creation')..etc..you appear to blame government but it's the bankster/'money power'--not 'the government' to whom you/we are $lave..as the borrower is $ervant to the lender...;)

[helmuth_hubener]

Monetary Realism

If by that you mean you adhere to Real Business Cycle Theory, then we can discuss that. I think the idea is completely and soundly disproven (at least in its rigid, absolute form).

If by that you mean the mishmash of ideas adhered to by one Cullen Roche, then... is there even anything to talk about? Are there any clear statements made by this "monetary realism" of Cullen's that could be agreed with, or disagreed with? I doubt it. But if this is what you mean and you do want to attempt to talk about it: by all means, have at. I will try to play along.

[helmuth_hubener]

I've cracked it. Those actually interested in beta testing a gold-backed debit card may send me a private message. Declare your independence from the corrupt, statist, crony, fractional reserve banking system.

[H. E. Panqui]

helmuth queries: Are there any clear statements made by this "monetary realism" of Cullen's that could be agreed with, or disagreed with? I doubt it. But if this is what you mean and you do want to attempt to talk about it: by all means, have at. I will try to play along.




...from what little i read of 'cullen,' he appears as yet another in a long long line of 'republicrat economic theorists'...yet another with his cake-hole frequently working as to the illion 'dollar' economy absent an honest, REAL understanding of the origin, nature, etc. of even one stinking 'dollar'...

REALISM: 'the quality or fact of representing a person, thing, or situation accurately or in a way that is true to life.'

...so, for one of many examples, helmuth, i would expect a true 'monetary realist' to understand that most of 'our money' is created by commercial banks in the process of their fraudulent 'deposit creation' privilege/scheme...and not 'printed by the government'....as your typical republicrat-voting gd fool 'believes'..including, apparently, most/all of the teabag 'liberty' republicrat cheerleaders too!!



helmuth beckons: 'Declare your independence from the corrupt, statist, crony, fractional reserve banking system.'

...a 'monetary realist' understands that without major legislative change--(not even being whispered about by the stinking republicrats, btw) anyone not an 'indian on untaxed land' who doesn't use federal reserve notes/tokens--or someone using them in their behalf-is very quickly dead/in jail/both here in 'murka...get realism, helmuth!

as one wag put it, helmuth: "Banking was conceived in iniquity and was born in sin. The bankers own the earth. Take it away from them, but leave them the power to create money, and with the flick of the pen they will create enough deposits to buy it back again. However, take away from them the power to create money and all the great fortunes like mine will disappear and they ought to disappear, for this would be a happier and better world to live in. But, if you wish to remain the slaves of bankers and pay the cost of your own slavery, let them continue to create money."

[helmuth_hubener]

REALISM: 'the quality or fact of representing a person, thing, or situation accurately or in a way that is true to life.'

...so, for one of many examples, helmuth, i would expect a true 'monetary realist' to understand that most of 'our money' is created by commercial banks in the process of their fraudulent 'deposit creation' privilege/scheme... Well, check!, count me in I guess, by that criterion.


helmuth beckons: 'Declare your independence from the corrupt, statist, crony, fractional reserve banking system.'[/I]

...a 'monetary realist' understands that without major legislative change--(not even being whispered about by the stinking republicrats, btw) anyone not an 'indian on untaxed land' who doesn't use federal reserve notes/tokens--or someone using them in their behalf-is very quickly dead/in jail/both here in 'murka...get realism, helmuth!
Watch and wonder.

Come on, is RPF really this dead? Virtually no interest in this whatsoever? Come on, guys: gold bullion debit card. Insanely low fees. Protect yourself from inflation. How are you guys not crawling over each other to be on the waiting list?

http://www.anony.ws/i/2015/07/15/Ice-Cream-Cone.jpg

[H. E. Panqui]

....helmuth, remember that the true 'owners' of that land upon which you lay your head down at night, the land your food is grown upon, etc..is yours to use only if you cough up some federal reserve notes...you hand them gold and they'll tell you to sell it for some federal reserve notes you can then use to pay the land rental fee ('property tax')...

...another example of realism, helmuth...;)

[helmuth_hubener]

....helmuth, remember that the true 'owners' of that land upon which you lay your head down at night, the land your food is grown upon, etc..is yours to use only if you cough up some federal reserve notes...you hand them gold and they'll tell you to sell it for some federal reserve notes you can then use to pay the land rental fee ('property tax')...

...another example of realism, helmuth...;)
JIT - Just-in-Time:
An inventory strategy companies employ to increase efficiency and decrease waste by receiving goods only as they are needed

[H. E. Panqui]

helmuth asserts his monetary realism: Well, check!, count me in I guess, by that criterion.


;)

....good for you, helmuth!!...true monetary realists are rare indeed...(for example, to my knowledge, there are no current federal politicians who are monetary realists...)

...i did make note of a small sample of your monetary realism here at post #160, etc:...please paste a link to your best writing/thinking on the $ubject...i assure you i will read it thoroughly and comment honestly...

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?470119-Is-the-US-national-quot-debt-quot-an-illusion/page6

...are you doing anything to make your vision of a 'gold-backed money' workable?...have you lobbied your representative(s) to submit bills making gold/silver 'legal tender,' (acceptable for the payment of taxes) etc.?...

[presence]

I've cracked it. Those actually interested in beta testing a gold-backed debit card may send me a private message.


interested, send me more info :D

[helmuth_hubener]

Please paste a link to your best writing/thinking on the subject. I assure you i will read it thoroughly and comment honestly.

I will just link you to my posting of Harry Browne's explanation. It is very clear, and very good, I think.

The Best Explanation of Fractional Reserve Banking Ever (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?453410-The-Best-Explanation-of-Fractional-Reserve-Banking-Ever!)

[H. E. Panqui]

....nice post, helmuth!..some great $tuff...

...btw, others (?here too?) don't believe me when i tell them, 'bankers get bonds for nothing...you/i have to 'work' to acquire the money to buy bonds, but the banksters get them for absolutely nothing'...(which amounts to a bankster tax upon all)..what say you, helmuth?...

...my problem with browne--and i really liked him--was that he really never blew the whistle on 'bankster privilege' enough...he badmouthed 'government' more than he badmouthed 'the banksters'...'the government' are merely puppets of 'the banksters'...

...as one wag put it, 'the fact that these stinking republicrats NEVER talk about 'the money' tells anyone not a gd republicrat fool all they need to know....';)

[Son_of_Liberty90]

still waiting

[osan]

Would any of you be interested in using a gold-backed debit card?

That is, you'd have an account of gold. You would own the gold, not dollars. Upon swiping the card to pay for your meal or shopping or whatever (or having it auto-debited to pay for rent or electricity) dollars would be transferred to the merchant, as normal. It would seem just like a normal transaction to them. The card would be accepted everywhere Visa is accepted.

The gold-to-dollar conversion would be automatic behind the scenes, taken care of by the card so you don't have to do anything.

Would you use such a thing? Would you prefer to keep your money in gold rather than a bank account denominated in dollars?

I'd love to hear any thoughts and opinions. I'd use it but only if it had such-and-such? Needs this feature or that? Stupid idea? I want to know!

Questions.




Whence the gold? Do you physically bring it to a bank? Is there a service that would take care of this for you... for a fee?
How are accounts reconciled? After spending 1/2 of your reserve, where does the "used" gold go?
What happens when someone buys something from YOU, using dollars? Is that converted to gold? What if no gold is available?
If the bank is robbed of the physical gold, where would you stand as the ultimate robbee? Would FDIC or similar protection be available?
Would your gold be safe from government action such as that taken by Roosevelt in confiscation?


There are probably more issues, but this is a good start, methinks.

I like the idea, but there appear to be kinks. The notion of armored cars moving huge stores of heavy metal back and forth does present problems, IMO. In a simpler world, 2# of gold in a man's pockets would perhaps be little trouble to him, save for the usual threats posed by thieves and other miscreants. In this world of paranoia, endless theft by legitimization, and other stupidities unimaginable just 200 years ago, I am not entirely convinced that gold remains a sound sink of value. The simple fact that our technologies are so capable, yet in the hands of brigands we call "government", I feel little to no security regarding gold. Imagine I go through security at an airport and ten pounds of gold are discovered in my possession. You bloody well know it will likely be confiscated under civil forfeiture on the pretext that I must be a drug dealer. Then I would have to go to prison for murder in defense of my property and it's all downhill from there.

Anyhow, those are some of the concerns I have with the idea.

[helmuth_hubener]

Gradually rolling it out in a bigger way:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?509813-The-Return-of-Sound-Money

I'm giving RPFers early adopting priority in line by posting it here. Let me know if you'd like to get a card and help test it.

[opal]

I'm going to have to pass.. I trust no one with my physical gold but me

[helmuth_hubener]

Great questions, osan!


Whence the gold? Do you physically bring it to a bank? Is there a service that would take care of this for you... for a fee? Switzerland. We, Midas, own it, through an intermediary. When you fund your account, we purchase the gold on your behalf. You fund the account in the normal way, with dollars. The dollars are then converted to gold. See?



How are accounts reconciled? After spending 1/2 of your reserve, where does the "used" gold go? Whenever you spend gold, it is converted into dollars. The gold is then sold back to the intermediary.

What happens when someone buys something from YOU, using dollars? Is that converted to gold? What if no gold is available? We do not offer a merchant account (at least not yet). This is just like a normal bank account. Just as in your previous normal experience, if someone pays you, they will be giving you a check or actual paper dollars. You can then deposit this into your account. If you are using Midas, then yes: upon deposit the funds are used to buy gold and immediately converted from dollars to ounces.


If the bank is robbed of the physical gold, where would you stand as the ultimate robbee? Would FDIC or similar protection be available?
The gold is in a vault in Switzerland. This is exceedingly unlikely.


Would your gold be safe from government action such as that taken by Roosevelt in confiscation? From that particular government action? Yes. The gold is in a vault in Switzerland. Not in the jurisdiction of Roosevelt and his successors. However, no tangible asset can ever be completely safe from government action.


I am not entirely convinced that gold remains a sound sink of value. If Midas takes off and becomes popular, the framework I have built can be used for other backing assets as well. We could make a bitcoin-backed debit card, a silver-backed debit card, an anything-you-want-backed debit card. The sky's the limit.

[helmuth_hubener]

I'm going to have to pass.. I trust no one with my physical gold but me
Fair enough! Thanks for the feedback, though!