Kristol: "what's the point" of the U.S. if we don't "command & give orders"

[randomname]

Conservatism, Kristol complained, "is so influenced by business culture and by business modes of thinking that it lacks any political imagination, which has always been, I have to say, a property of the Left." Kristol confessed to a deep yearning for an American empire: "What's the point of being the greatest, most powerful nation in the world and not having an imperial role? It's unheard of in human history. The most powerful nation always had an imperial role." But, he continued, previous empires were not "capitalist democracies with a strong emphasis on economic growth and economic prosperity." Because of its commitment to the free market, the United States lacked the fortitude and vision to wield imperial power. "It's too bad," Kristol lamented. "I think it would be natural for the United States . . . to play a far more dominant role in world affairs. Not what we're doing now but to command and to give orders as to what is to be done. People need that. There are many parts of the world—Africa in particular—where an authority willing to use troops can make a very good difference, a healthy difference." But with public discussion dominated by accountants—"there's the Republican Party tying itself into knots. Over what? Prescriptions for elderly people? Who gives a damn? I think it's disgusting that . . . presidential politics of the most important country in the world should revolve around prescriptions for elderly people. Future historians will find this very hard to believe. It's not Athens. It's not Rome. It's not anything." Kristol thought it unlikely that the United States would take its rightful place as the successor to empires past.

http://new.bostonreview.net/BR29.1/robin.html

[phill4paul]

"What's the point of being the greatest, most powerful nation in the world and not having an imperial role? It's unheard of in human history."

And it is taught of in History books. Past tense.

[DFF]

Kristol thought it unlikely that the United States would take its rightful place as the successor to empires past.

Denies the US is an Empire while simultaneously lamenting that US Imperialism isn't performing up to par. :rolleyes:

Kristol is correct though that somebody has to rule the world. If it isn't the US, it will be China or Russia.

In the future, one or both of these nations will inevitably step into the vacuum and take the US's place.

Then all the people bitching about non-intervention (not pointing the finger, I've been one of them) will suddenly do an about face because they don't like being dictated to.

[acptulsa]

The point of maintaining a republic is that it's a good place to live, and can be made into the greatest nation on earth because a free people can innovate and are motivated.

And the point of preventing it from becoming an empire is empires have tended to destroy republics since the republic was first conceived over two millennia ago.

[VIDEODROME]

Denies the US is an Empire while simultaneously lamenting that US Imperialism isn't performing up to par. :rolleyes:

Kristol is correct though that somebody has to rule the world. If it isn't the US, it will be China or Russia.

In the future, one or both of these nations will inevitably step into the vacuum and take the US's place.

Then all the people bitching about non-intervention (not pointing the finger, I've been one of them) will suddenly do an about face because they don't like being dictated to.

We can intervene if we know WTF we're doing. What is the plan? What defines Victory? We need a War Declaration when taking these actions so we don't have endless mission creep. Or if we go through the War Declaration process, Congress is forced to really think the action through and wonder if this is a bad idea.

[Occam's Banana]

Then all the people bitching about non-intervention (not pointing the finger, I've been one of them) will suddenly do an about face because they don't like being dictated to.

False dichotomy: declining to dictate to others does not mean permitting being dictated to.

[Anti Federalist]

Christ save us all from these modern day Caesars.

[Origanalist]

False dichotomy: declining to dictate to others does not mean permitting being dictated to.

Out of rep.

[phill4paul]

Christ save us all from these modern day Caesars.

I respectfully disagree. And by that I truly mean respectfully.

[Origanalist]

You know, Billy has me convinced. Let's bomb the bejebbers out of Iran just to show the rest of the world what we're really about.

[Henry Rogue]

Then the rest of the world will be "terrorists". But maybe that's what you want Billy boy.

Conservatism, Kristol complained, "is so influenced by business culture and by business modes of thinking that it lacks any political imagination, which has always been, I have to say, a property of the Left." Kristol confessed to a deep yearning for an American empire: "What's the point of being the greatest, most powerful nation in the world and not having an imperial role? It's unheard of in human history. The most powerful nation always had an imperial role." But, he continued, previous empires were not "capitalist democracies with a strong emphasis on economic growth and economic prosperity." Because of its commitment to the free market, the United States lacked the fortitude and vision to wield imperial power. "It's too bad," Kristol lamented. "I think it would be natural for the United States . . . to play a far more dominant role in world affairs. Not what we're doing now but to command and to give orders as to what is to be done. People need that. There are many parts of the world—Africa in particular—where an authority willing to use troops can make a very good difference, a healthy difference." But with public discussion dominated by accountants—"there's the Republican Party tying itself into knots. Over what? Prescriptions for elderly people? Who gives a damn? I think it's disgusting that . . . presidential politics of the most important country in the world should revolve around prescriptions for elderly people. Future historians will find this very hard to believe. It's not Athens. It's not Rome. It's not anything." Kristol thought it unlikely that the United States would take its rightful place as the successor to empires past.

http://new.bostonreview.net/BR29.1/robin.html

[Origanalist]

Kristol thought it unlikely that the United States would take its rightful place as the successor to empires past.

Wasn't the original idea not to be a empire at all?

[acptulsa]

Wasn't the original idea not to be a empire at all?

Are you talking about American Original Intent? And sanity and liberty?

Terrist!

[tony m]

False dichotomy: declining to dictate to others does not mean permitting being dictated to.

Yes.

[Origanalist]

Are you talking about American Original Intent? And sanity and liberty?

Terrist!

Long live the King!

[otherone]

Future historians will find this very hard to believe. It's not Athens. It's not Rome. It's not anything."



I think American conservatives are uniquely equipped to present to the world this vision of the future—a vision worthy of the American past. I've always had a great affection for the words of John Winthrop, delivered to a small band of Pilgrims on the tiny ship Arabella off the coast of Massachusetts in 1630: 'We shall be a city upon a hill. The eyes of all people are upon us, so that if we shall deal falsely with our God in this work we have undertaken and so cause Him to withdraw His present help from us, we shall be made a story and a byword throughout the world.'

Well, America has not been a story or a byword. That small community of Pilgrims prospered and, driven by the dreams and, yes, by the ideas of the Founding Fathers, went on to become a beacon to all the oppressed and poor of the world."

Where's my fucking "Shining City on a Hill"?

[Origanalist]

Where's my fucking "Shining City on a Hill"?

http://joequinn.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/police-state.jpg

[phill4paul]

Shall we try..."Kill them ALL, let God sort them out." Interesting concept if ALL includes you.

[TheCount]

Wasn't the original idea not to be a empire at all?

Yeah but crowns are pretty cool.

[Origanalist]

Shall we try..."Kill them ALL, let God sort them out." Interesting concept if ALL includes you.

I wonder how many who espouse the concept would agree to that?

[phill4paul]

Yeah but crowns are pretty cool.

Before the Constitution there was a push for a prince that was a bi-sexual of a Scandinavian monarch to lord us over. Good stuff. History.

[Origanalist]

Before the Constitution there was a push for a prince that was a bi-sexual of a Scandinavian monarch to lord us over. Good stuff. History.

link?

[phill4paul]

I wonder how many who espouse the concept would agree to that?

In their mindset "the other" doesn't include them. Conversely sometimes it does. I'll not be killing, or a dying, for God or country.

[Origanalist]

In their mindset "the other" doesn't include them. Conversely sometimes it does. I'll not be killing, or a dying, for God or country.

You never really are for either. There was a time people believed they were dying for liberty.

[phill4paul]

link?

No link. Took me a couple of minutes to re-post. Ignore spelling. Close as it get's this evening...

Well, nothing definitive, but....

The Peoples Almanac #2 (1978)...

1786
Having determined that what the United States needed was a King , a powerful group of American politicians -
James Monroe, Alexander Hamilton, and Nathaniel
Gortham, President of the Continental Congress, among others - wrote to 50 year old Prince Henry of Prushia,
younger brother of Frederick the Great, and invited him to become king of the United States (at the suggestion of
Revolutionary war hero Baron von Steuben. Prince Henry vascillated , and by the time he gave his uncertain reply
the Americans decided to have an elected president rather than an constitutional monarch. This may have been
fortunate for American patriots,
who had not been aware that Prince Henry was one of the most debauched and notorius homosexuals in all Europe.

Been meaning to investigate further. Haven't done.

[Origanalist]

No link. Took me a couple of minutes to re-post. Ignore spelling. Close as it get's this evening...

Well, nothing definitive, but....

The Peoples Almanac #2 (1978)...



Been meaning to investigate further. Haven't done.

I find that completely believable, lmao.............

[VIDEODROME]

False dichotomy: declining to dictate to others does not mean permitting being dictated to.

We do do better by having a strong economy rather than militarism if people see us as a key participant in having good business and profits. I do see a strong military as beneficial, but the means to grease the wheels of business and help all who are friends with us have prosperity in business is worth so much more.

[r3volution 3.0]

http://www.pbs.org/arguing/nyintellectuals_krystol_2.html


I was graduated from City College in the spring of 194O, and the honor I most prized was the factthat I was a member in good standing of the Young People's Socialist League (Fourth International). This organization was commonly; and correctly, designated as Trotskyist (not "Trotskiyite," which was a term used only by the official Communists, or "Stalinists" as we called them, of the day). Ihave not set foot on the City College campus since my commencement. The present president of the college, Robert Marshak, has amiably urged me to come and see the place again � it is very different but still recognizable, he says. I have promised to go, but somehow I think I may never find the time.


It is not that my memories of CCNY are disagreeable. On the contrary:

Irving Kristol, "Memoirs of a Trotskyist"

....these people are literally Bolsheviks.

Scum of the earth, anti-people, pure evil.

[The Northbreather]

Dear Africans, it's our destiny to rule you.

Its your destiny to be ruled.

wtf

[acptulsa]

http://www.pbs.org/arguing/nyintellectuals_krystol_2.html



Irving Kristol, "Memoirs of a Trotskyist"

....these people are literally Bolsheviks.

Scum of the earth, anti-people, pure evil.

I wonder how hard we'd have to work for how long to make people see that they want a North American Union so they can set us up some nice gulags up around the Nunavut side of Hudson Bay.

Of course, Nome would do for a Siberia in a pinch. But I get the feeling they want to beat Stalin's record and send us up by the tens of millions, and it could get mighty crowded.

[r3volution 3.0]

^^^I don't trust the voters qua voters (looking at electoral history, can you blame me?), but I do trust the good ol' boys with their deer rifles.

That is the reason why something like this has not already happened here, IMO.

In the 70s we were close.

Win elections, us; and preserve the 2nd amendment, just in case.

...the sort of people we're fighting would thinking nothing of recreating the mass horror of 1917 Russia here.

[Ronin Truth]

C'mon Billy, who told you that the U.S. required a point? :rolleyes:

[acptulsa]

C'mon Billy, who told you that the U.S. required a point? :rolleyes:

No one. It just popped into his pointed head.

[pcosmar]

Christ save us all from these modern day Caesars.

There was Nimrod long before there was Caesar.

And He will put an end to it,, but not till it comes to a horrendous climax.

Sadly,, we have a real mess to look forward to in the near future.

[Occam's Banana]

What's the point of being the greatest, most powerful nation in the world and not having an imperial role?

Kristol is just regurgitating one of the standard-issue nostrums of the warmongers of all parties ...

"What's the point of having this superb military that you're always talking about if we can't use it?"
- Madeleine "It was worth it" Albright (Secretary of State) to Colin Powell (chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff) re: Bosnia

[acptulsa]

Kristol is just regurgitating one of the standard-issue nostrums of the warmongers of all parties ...

"What's the point of having this superb military that you're always talking about if we can't use it?"
- Madeleine "It was worth it" Albright (Secretary of State) to Colin Powell (chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff) re: Bosnia

These being the exact same warmongers who sold the public on funding the war machine by saying, 'It's all about deterrence! If we build too much weaponry, we'll never have to use any of it at all because no one will be foolish enough to make us defend ourselves! We build it so we don't have to use it!'

[Cleaner44]

Conservatism, Kristol complained, "is so influenced by business culture and by business modes of thinking that it lacks any political imagination, which has always been, I have to say, a property of the Left." Kristol confessed to a deep yearning for an American empire: "What's the point of being the greatest, most powerful nation in the world and not having an imperial role? It's unheard of in human history. The most powerful nation always had an imperial role." But, he continued, previous empires were not "capitalist democracies with a strong emphasis on economic growth and economic prosperity." Because of its commitment to the free market, the United States lacked the fortitude and vision to wield imperial power. "It's too bad," Kristol lamented. "I think it would be natural for the United States . . . to play a far more dominant role in world affairs. Not what we're doing now but to command and to give orders as to what is to be done. People need that. There are many parts of the world—Africa in particular—where an authority willing to use troops can make a very good difference, a healthy difference." But with public discussion dominated by accountants—"there's the Republican Party tying itself into knots. Over what? Prescriptions for elderly people? Who gives a damn? I think it's disgusting that . . . presidential politics of the most important country in the world should revolve around prescriptions for elderly people. Future historians will find this very hard to believe. It's not Athens. It's not Rome. It's not anything." Kristol thought it unlikely that the United States would take its rightful place as the successor to empires past.

http://new.bostonreview.net/BR29.1/robin.html

I order Bill to shut the fuck up... he needs that.

[heavenlyboy34]

Denies the US is an Empire while simultaneously lamenting that US Imperialism isn't performing up to par. :rolleyes:

Kristol is correct though that somebody has to rule the world. If it isn't the US, it will be China or Russia.

In the future, one or both of these nations will inevitably step into the vacuum and take the US's place.

Then all the people bitching about non-intervention (not pointing the finger, I've been one of them) will suddenly do an about face because they don't like being dictated to.
More likely Britain. Historically, the Brits are better at empire building than the Russians or Chinese. As the old saying goes "the sun never sets on the British Empire".

[acptulsa]

More likely Britain. Historically, the Brits are better at empire building than the Russians or Chinese. As the old saying goes "the sun never sets on the British Empire".

Um, you do realize that Britain negotiated its entire empire away to us during WWII for our 'lend-lease' goodies, right? And that, except for the occasional tiny dot on the globe like the Falklands and the four Commonwealth Nations (two of which have since broken all ties to Great Britain), they have had neither an empire, nor the means to rebuild one since?