You own nothing

[Anti Federalist]

Not just cars, everything in the new internet of things.

Enjoy your brave new world kids, it's liable to be hell on earth.


“Your” Car? Not So Much…

by eric • May 6, 2015 • 18 Comments

http://ericpetersautos.com/2015/05/06/your-car-not-so-much/

The government wants to control your car – how it’s made, what it comes equipped with and (of course) how you’re allowed to drive it.

Now comes the other half of the pincers:

The car companies want to prevent you from working on the thing.

Modifications – performance enhancements – and even routine maintenance are to become illegal via the application (and enforcement) of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) to cars.

They are claiming propriety rights to the software embedded in the computer – technically, the Electronic Control Unit or ECU – that pretty much runs a modern car.

They claim – and you knew this was coming, right? – that saaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaafety is threatened by people doing their own maintenance or tweaking/tuning as such might affect how the various saaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaafety systems embedded in the car and controlled by the ECU operate.

A blind stroke victim ought to have seen this coming.

Cars, claim the car companies, are mobile computing devices – you know, like sail fawns – and so fall under the aegis of the DMCA. Have a read:

“Automobiles are inherently mobile, and increasingly they contain equipment that would commonly be considered computing devices… Many of the ECUs embodied in today’s motor vehicles are carefully calibrated to satisfy federal or state regulatory requirements with respect to emissions control, fuel economy, or vehicle safety. Allowing vehicle owners to add and remove programs at whim is highly likely to take vehicles out of compliance with these requirements, rendering the operation or re-sale of the vehicle legally problematic. The decision to employ access controls to hinder unauthorized “tinkering” with these vital computer programs is necessary in order to protect the safety and security of drivers and passengers and to reduce the level of non-compliance with regulatory standards. We urge the Copyright Office to give full consideration to the impacts on critical national energy and environmental goals, as well as motor vehicle safety, in its decision on this proposed exemption. Since the record on this proposal contains no evidence regarding its applicability to or impact on motor vehicles, cars and trucks should be specifically excluded from any exemption that is recommended in this area.”

This statement (see here for the full text) was issued by the Auto Alliance – the great collective that speaketh for every major car company doing business in the United States, including Ford, GM, Mazda, Jaguar Land Rover, Toyota, VW/Audi, Mitsubishi, Mercedes, BMW and Volvo, et al.

Note carefully the way that government edicts relating to saaaaaaaaaaaaafety (and emission and fuel efficiency) are now being turned outward, against the car owner. Heretofore, these mandates directly affected the car companies, who were forced to add, as an example, a (cue El Guapo) plethora of air bags to new vehicles, or direct injection and auto-stop/start (more recently) to eke out a fractional gain in MPGs in order to appease the federal government’s Corporate Average Fuel Efficiency (CAFE) fatwa.

But now, the wheel turns – and what’s been good for the goose (the industry) is going to be good for the gander (us), too. It’s a kind of vengeful lashing out, on the one hand. The industry – sick, probably, of taking these endless demands on the chin – with most consumers being engineering illiterates and just expecting cars to become ever saaaaaaaaaaaafer, ever more fuel efficient, by decree.

Just – cue Captain Picard – make it so.

Well, no.

It takes a lot of brain sweat to figure out how to – for example – maintain the capability to get to 60 MPH in less than 10 seconds while also averaging 35.5 MPG (next year’s CAFE fatwa). Let alone 50 MPG (the proposed CAFE fatwa for 2020). Let’s make the consumers feel our pain, they reasoned. Perhaps they will begin to ask questions and come to understand that there truly ain’t no such thing as a free lunch.

More likely, though, is that the perfect vehicle for exercising complete control over “our” (air quotes) cars was conceived – and is now in the process of being born. It is genius, really. You have to admire it.

First, establish the principle in law that the government’s job is to be your parent – to protect you from yourself. From theoretical risk, as defined by government. You might wreck your car. If you do, an air bag might save your life (it might also gouge out one of your eyes, but that’s a mere incidental). Ergo, government has the right to require that you buy a car equipped with an air bag.

Because the government is your Mommy.

And now – drum roll, please – government (egged on by the car companies, which are big cartels and becoming indistinguishable from the government) has the right to criminalize any “meddling” by you with the car that could even theoretically compromise the saaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaafety of the vehicle.

Or its emissions output.

Or its gas mileage.

It will be become an actionable offense to use more gas than you’re allowed. Notwithstanding you paid for it. High-flow injectors? A conical air filter? $500 fine. Or maybe they just seize the car.

Or, just turn it off – remotely.

None of this is new, by the way. For decades, it has been illegal in California and some other states to “modify or alter” any drivetrain (the engine) components that affect emissions output. Even if emissions themselves are not affected at all. Or affected for the better. Ask someone who lives in California about this. It is even illegal (in CA) to put a more modern (and less “emitting”) engine in an older vehicle, regardless of whether the newer engine’s tailpipe outpourings are less than those produced by the car’s original/factory engine. You could, however, file paperwork with an entity called the California Air Resources Board (CARB) and – maybe – get an exemption.

DMCA will close that “loophole” – and do it nationally.

What’s been implicit for a long time in American politics and law is becoming quite explicit:

We don’t own anything anymore.

The government does.

What does it mean to own something? Is it your name on a piece of paper? Renters also have their names on a piece of paper. It is called a lease. You are allowed temporary and conditional use of the property.

We are all renters now.

Your home is a rental – whether you’ve got a mortgage or not. You pay rent in perpetuity to the county/state in the form of property tax.

If you decline to pay the rent, you will find out in short order who truly does own “your” home.

DMCA will apply the principle to “our” cars, too. You will make the payments – but you will only be allowed to use the car as decreed. And the enforcement mechanism is already in place.

It is already in the car.

Every new car not only has an ECU, it also has the capability to be accessed electronically without your knowledge or consent. If it has a system such as GM’s OnStar (and other automakers have similar systems now) your car can have a furtive conversation with the car company that built it – or the government – which (again) increasingly amounts to the same thing.

They see you when you’re sleeping, the know when you’re awake, they know if you’ve been bad or good, so be good for goodness sake…

Or else.

The “or else” being they’ll simply shut you down once alerted. Once the car narcs you out.

In the same of saaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaafety.

It calls to mind a famous epitaph, that of novelist H.G. Wells:

Goddamn you all: I told you so.

[helmuth_hubener]

You know what else is against the Digital Millennium Copyright Act?

This (https://thepiratebay.se/)

and this (http://putlocker.is/)

and probably this. (http://www.mp3juices.cc/)

But you know what? "It's happening". Nobody seems to be able to stop it.

We'll still be able to fix and modify and tune and hack our cars. Don't worry. The stupid attitudes of the of the stupid (the Clovers) are annoying, but, you know what's nice about the stupid?

They're stupid.

They can't stop us.

[hillertexas]

We Can’t Let John Deere Destroy the Very Idea of Ownership

Over the last two decades, manufacturers have used the DMCA to argue that consumers do not own the software underpinning the products they buy—things like smartphones, computers, coffeemakers, cars, and, yes, even tractors. So, Old MacDonald has a tractor, but he owns a massive barn ornament, because the manufacturer holds the rights to the programming that makes it run....
http://www.wired.com/2015/04/dmca-ownership-john-deere/?utm_source=thenextmeme

[phill4paul]

Goddamn you all: I told you so.

Goddamn you all: I told you so.

Goddamn you all: I told you so.

[staerker]

You know what else is against the Digital Millennium Copyright Act?

This (https://thepiratebay.se/)

and this (http://putlocker.is/)

and probably this. (http://www.mp3juices.cc/)

But you know what? "It's happening". Nobody seems to be able to stop it.

We'll still be able to fix and modify and tune and hack our cars. Don't worry. The stupid attitudes of the of the stupid (the Clovers) are annoying, but, you know what's nice about the stupid?

They're stupid.

They can't stop us.

Yes, and no. If they lock everything down correctly, you'd have to completely reprogram every drive by wire car (assuming someone finds out how to integrate it with the hardware.) And the data needed to do that correctly wouldn't be available without extensive testing-- for every model.

[Origanalist]

Yes, and no. If they lock everything down correctly, you'd have to completely reprogram every drive by wire car (assuming someone finds out how to integrate it with the hardware.) And the data needed to do that correctly wouldn't be available without extensive testing-- for every model.

Exactly, and the punishment for doing so will be severe. Think $850.00 for a no insurance ticket is bad? Hah! Just wait.

[staerker]

Exactly, and the punishment for doing so will be severe. Think $850.00 for a no insurance ticket is bad? Hah! Just wait.

Indeed. Though the chances of you making one screw up that causes your vehicle to completely fail (while on the road) is much greater than being found out. I wouldn't trust myself with that program without a whole team, designing the thing from scratch.

What we need is an AR15 of the road.

[helmuth_hubener]

Yes, and no. If they lock everything down correctly, you'd have to completely reprogram every drive by wire car (assuming someone finds out how to integrate it with the hardware.) And the data needed to do that correctly wouldn't be available without extensive testing-- for every model.

Has Apple locked down the iPhone correctly?

[jbauer]

We Can’t Let John Deere Destroy the Very Idea of Ownership

http://www.wired.com/2015/04/dmca-ownership-john-deere/?utm_source=thenextmeme

John Deere has been doing the end around on this crap for quite some time. My Dad has a bigger JD tractor. A hydraulic hose broke under the cab. In a normal tractor you would be able to raise the cab up and easily replace said hose for almost nothing to as much as $100. On this tractor you need a special machine only owned by JD to make a farm call to feed/bend this hose through their chaise. They turned a $20 part into $900 service call/new hose.

My Dad no longer buys green equipment.

[helmuth_hubener]

Exactly, and the punishment for doing so will be severe.

I doubt it. Not in real life.

Look, my signature line is breaking the DMCA every single time I post. You know how many times I have received severe punishment for it?

How many times per year does the FBI impose its $50,000 fine that it warns us about before each and every movie we watch at home?

Approximately zero in both cases. It's a paper tiger.

No one is going to be inspecting your car's computer software to make sure you haven't jailbroken it. There are still many states with no inspection programs at all, and that is not going to be changing any time soon. One can (trivially!) easily just license out of one of those states.

[helmuth_hubener]

John Deere has been doing the end around on this crap for quite some time. My Dad has a bigger JD tractor. A hydraulic hose broke under the cab. In a normal tractor you would be able to raise the cab up and easily replace said hose for almost nothing to as much as $100. On this tractor you need a special machine only owned by JD to make a farm call to feed/bend this hose through their chaise. They turned a $20 part into $900 service call/new hose.

My Dad no longer buys green equipment.
http://farmhack.org/home/

[Slave Mentality]

They won't be satisfied until we are all living in 3rd world squaller, working 18 hour days, living in perpetual debt, and riding around in tuk-tuks. Not kidding at all.

Wait until they really start going after the older cars. It will be a situation to where if you don't buy an iCar, then you are not going to be driving. Enjoy it while it lasts boys!

[surf]

on an unrelated note, I have a newer truck, and the first oil change I got (because it's under warrantee, don't yell at me about not doing my own) they put in 0/20 oil. having never heard of it, I asked what the hell zero twenty motor oil was. attendant had no clue.

it's quite the change from my last vehicle - an early 90's GMC that I actually could work on myself.

this truck desperately wants me to connect it w/my smarty phone. jokes on the truck though, I don't have one. i'm uncomfortable that it can be tracked.

[presence]

We urge the Copyright Office to give full consideration to the impacts on critical national energy and environmental goals

Now that it comes full circle... can you see very concept of intellectual property is 100% scam? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture)

[staerker]

Has Apple locked down the iPhone correctly?

Yes, but a car isn't a toy. When you're working with moving mechanical parts and high voltage, a single small glitch = potential deaths.

Also, most people rely on optimal performance from their vehicles. Each and every model of said "jailbroken" cars would have to undergo extensive testing, by an underground group of experienced engineers, with access to the right equipment. Underground.

I am not against it, I am just saying it would be extremely difficult, and not worth the effort (versus designing a vehicle from the ground up.)

[helmuth_hubener]

If they lock everything down correctly, you'd have to completely reprogram every drive by wire car (assuming someone finds out how to integrate it with the hardware.) And the data needed to do that correctly wouldn't be available without extensive testing-- for every model.Has Apple locked down the iPhone correctly?YesOK, then. And yet, it is easy to customize and modify the iPhone.

I highly doubt that auto manufacturers will lock down their cars more effectively than the iPhone. They don't have the brainpower resources. No, they will be "locked down" less effectively, meaning that customization will be even easier.


Also, most people rely on optimal performance from their vehicles. Do they?


Each and every model of said "jailbroken" cars would have to undergo extensive testing, by an underground group of experienced engineers, with access to the right equipment. Underground. I disagree. Just don't mess with the anti-lock braking algorithm.

What exactly are you envisioning that people will want to tweak that will be so deadly and finnicky and horribly difficult?


I am not against it, I am just saying it would be extremely difficult, and not worth the effort (versus designing a vehicle from the ground up.) My own sense is that it will be easy, and that it will be worth the (small) effort.

But yes, we can both agree that the state is stupid and wrong and obnoxious and shouldn't be (feebly, hopelessly) trying to tell people what they can do with their property.

[heavenlyboy34]

Now that it comes full circle... can you see very concept of intellectual property is 100% scam? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture)

+rep, mega. This almost deserves its own thread. :cool:

[Anti Federalist]

on an unrelated note, I have a newer truck, and the first oil change I got (because it's under warrantee, don't yell at me about not doing my own) they put in 0/20 oil. having never heard of it, I asked what the hell zero twenty motor oil was. attendant had no clue.

it's quite the change from my last vehicle - an early 90's GMC that I actually could work on myself.

this truck desperately wants me to connect it w/my smarty phone. jokes on the truck though, I don't have one. i'm uncomfortable that it can be tracked.

0/20 is oil with the consistency of (real) maple syrup.

The tolerances are so tight on new engines, to try and run 10/40 weight oil in them would probably blow one up.

Again, great, while everything works.

Nearly impossible to repair later down the road.

[Anti Federalist]

My own sense is that it will be easy, and that it will be worth the (small) effort.

But yes, we can both agree that the state is stupid and wrong and obnoxious and shouldn't be (feebly, hopelessly) trying to tell people what they can do with their property.

Just came back from the VW stealership, where I talked with a fellow that was on the hook for $5200 worth of exhaust parts because the previous owner swapped out the exhaust and "chipped" the engine.

Sure, there are always "work arounds", but it is not wise to poo poo these things off as not having huge consequences.

Those work arounds will get more and more difficult as the surveillance grids expand and enhance their reach.

The new V2V technology will broadcast via wireless networking to every cop within a half a mile that your vehicle is not "in compliance", just for example.

Much better to squash this before it's born, than to try and run and hide from it later.

[Anti Federalist]

+rep, mega. This almost deserves its own thread. :cool:

Yah, it's shit like this that is making me reconsider the whole idea of patent and copyright protection.

[Anti Federalist]

They won't be satisfied until we are all living in 3rd world squaller, working 18 hour days, living in perpetual debt, and riding around in tuk-tuks. Not kidding at all.

Wait until they really start going after the older cars. It will be a situation to where if you don't buy an iCar, then you are not going to be driving. Enjoy it while it lasts boys!


Last edited by Slave Mentality; Today at 11:17 AM. Reason: Kan't spele

* squalor

;)

[CPUd]

Just came back from the VW stealership, where I talked with a fellow that was on the hook for $5200 worth of exhaust parts because the previous owner swapped out the exhaust and "chipped" the engine.

Sure, there are always "work arounds", but it is not wise to poo poo these things off as not having huge consequences.

Those work arounds will get more and more difficult as the surveillance grids expand and enhance their reach.

The new V2V technology will broadcast via wireless networking to every cop within a half a mile that your vehicle is not "in compliance", just for example.

Much better to squash this before it's born, than to try and run and hide from it later.

Why not just tell your V2V to broadcast "compliant"?

[Henry Rogue]

Why not just tell your V2V to broadcast "compliant"?
I wouldn't know how, that means I would have to hire someone like you to do it for me instead of buying that new knee brace I had my eye on.

[TheTexan]

The trick to this is to simply rent everything anyway, so you don't have to maintain it.

Owning things just ties you down.

[CPUd]

I wouldn't know how, that means I would have to hire someone like you to do it for me instead of buying that new knee brace I had my eye on.

There will be plenty of people out there who can show you how to do those kinds of things for free. It's not about the money, but it will cost some time.

[staerker]

My own sense is that it will be easy, and that it will be worth the (small) effort.

But yes, we can both agree that the state is stupid and wrong and obnoxious and shouldn't be (feebly, hopelessly) trying to tell people what they can do with their property.

I guess I was mostly considering electric vehicles. Which is where we are headed.

[Slave Mentality]

* squalor

;)

I am originally from Arkansas. Gimme a break.

[Anti Federalist]

Why not just tell your V2V to broadcast "compliant"?

Again, I'm sure that, given enough tweaking and fooling and finger fucking with laptops, you could do this.

Of course, it would be a federal felony to do so, and everybody involved would be an accessory to that felony.

Still better to kill this now, rather than work around with band aid fixes and hacks after the fact.

[puppetmaster]

on an unrelated note, I have a newer truck, and the first oil change I got (because it's under warrantee, don't yell at me about not doing my own) they put in 0/20 oil. having never heard of it, I asked what the hell zero twenty motor oil was. attendant had no clue.

it's quite the change from my last vehicle - an early 90's GMC that I actually could work on myself.

this truck desperately wants me to connect it w/my smarty phone. jokes on the truck though, I don't have one. i'm uncomfortable that it can be tracked. my buddy says Harleys require Harley change the oil to continue warranty

[CPUd]

Again, I'm sure that, given enough tweaking and fooling and finger fucking with laptops, you could do this.

Of course, it would be a federal felony to do so, and everybody involved would be an accessory to that felony.

Still better to kill this now, rather than work around with band aid fixes and hacks after the fact.

If you're talking about legislation, then yeah, it is worthwhile to push back on that. With new technology comes new issues and questions that fall outside existing laws, but government will try to find a context to put a new issue into, like export controls on 3D printing (from the other thread). The technology itself, that is going to happen no matter what. And the act of hacking or finding workarounds, that is what drives it.

[Danke]

The trick to this is to simply rent everything anyway, so you don't have to maintain it.

Owning things just ties you down.

If it flies floats or fucks, it is cheaper to rent.

[Mani]

And at this point it is pretty much impossible to take an old beater and rebuild it without the computers inside, because that car won't be up to code with all the new regulations.

[Anti Federalist]

And at this point it is pretty much impossible to take an old beater and rebuild it without the computers inside, because that car won't be up to code with all the new regulations.

Well, not impossible, it can be done, you can buy a nicely restored truck for instance:

http://www.azcarsandtrucks.com/tlehmannlg7.jpg

For $10,000

Nothing wrong with this as a daily driver, and with careful care and maintenance will last another thirty years.

What's going to happen is that all "old" vehicles will not be allowed to be driven or tagged.

[heavenlyboy34]

Yah, it's shit like this that is making me reconsider the whole idea of patent and copyright protection.

It won't be long till someone figures out how to patent DNA. Then they'll snitch a bit of yours from whatever item you drooled or bled on...BAM...every "expression" of your DNA is property of the patent owner, and you get to pay royalties out the ass for the "privilege" of a lot of your very existence. Mark my words, brother.

[heavenlyboy34]

If it flies floats or fucks, it is cheaper to rent.

LMAO! :D +rep

[CPUd]

It won't be long till someone figures out how to patent DNA. Then they'll snitch a bit of yours from whatever item you drooled or bled on...BAM...every "expression" of your DNA is property of the patent owner, and you get to pay royalties out the ass for the "privilege" of a lot of your very existence. Mark my words, brother.

http://i.imgur.com/NKnk9m6.jpg

[tod evans]

my buddy says Harleys require Harley change the oil to continue warranty

Harleys don't have aluminum jugs and 'puters in my world....:cool:

http://www.picsauto.com/images/harley-davidson-shovelhead-01.jpg

[phill4paul]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VbI5zcB8Ac

[ghengis86]

Such bullshit. This is like Microsoft and their software model now. You 'buy' Office, but pay a monthly fee instead of owning it outright. Corporations are looking to make you into a constant revenue stream, and lock you up forever. Anyway they can milk you, they'll do it. Hiding behind DCMA or other IP, licensing, TOS contracts etc., are the tools and their cronies working for the state do their bidding.

FFS, you don't own your land, your body, your thoughts....nothing

[helmuth_hubener]

Just came back from the VW stealership, where I talked with a fellow that was on the hook for $5200 worth of exhaust parts because the previous owner swapped out the exhaust and "chipped" the engine. "On the hook"? Did they not give him an estimate beforehand? Maybe mention, "Hey, we want to do 5 grand of work on your car, do you approve that?" Surely they did, or else surely he would be well within his rights (rights as understood by normal people, universally, not just by us) to refuse to pay and have them put it back the way it was. Why did he even bring it to the dealer in the first place?


Sure, there are always "work arounds", but it is not wise to poo poo these things off as not having huge consequences. I am not "poo-poo"-ing this proposal. As I said, I hate it as much as you do. It's an outrage that bureau-rats are even talking about doing this.

However, when problems arise in life, one can complain, or one can take action to fix the situation.

I'm more of a take action kind of a guy.


Much better to squash this before it's born, than to try and run and hide from it later. Oh, and how should I do that? How are you going to do it?

Sorry: doesn't sound like a thought-out action plan to me. Yes, let's squash it. Huzzah! But I have Zip idea how to do that with realistic chance of success, nor do you, I think. And so, I'll take a wrench in hand over 12 indignant squawkings in the bush.

I'm about solutions. One can whine about John Deere and his in-hindsight-poor decision to buy one, or one can join Farm Hack and do something about it; problem solved. One can whine about how computerized cars are becoming, or one can get Dash (https://dash.by/) or Mojio (https://www.moj.io/#whyMojio2) and take control, or get a non/de-computerized car; problem solved. One can whine about intrusive police state car inspections, or one can license his car out of a non-inspection state and never be inspected again; problem solved. These are solutions that will actually work, that are proven, and that you can implement yourself, unilaterally, instantaneously, with no approval from nor help from nor rallying of any other human being. Just yourself.

So, here's the question, take your pick, which would you rather experience in your life:

1. Problem solved
2. Endless whining

[tod evans]

"On the hook"? Did they not give him an estimate beforehand? Maybe mention, "Hey, we want to do 5 grand of work on your car, do you approve that?" Surely they did, or else surely he would be well within his rights (rights as understood by normal people, universally, not just by us) to refuse to pay and have them put it back the way it was. Why did he even bring it to the dealer in the first place?

I am not "poo-poo"-ing this proposal. As I said, I hate it as much as you do. It's an outrage that bureau-rats are even talking about doing this.

However, when problems arise in life, one can complain, or one can take action to fix the situation.

I'm more of a take action kind of a guy.

Oh, and how should I do that? How are you going to do it?

Sorry: doesn't sound like a thought-out action plan to me. Yes, let's squash it. Huzzah! But I have Zip idea how to do that with realistic chance of success, nor do you, I think. And so, I'll take a wrench in hand over 12 indignant squawkings in the bush.

I'm about solutions. One can whine about John Deere and his in-hindsight-poor decision to buy one, or one can join Farm Hack and do something about it; problem solved. One can whine about how computerized cars are becoming, or one can get Dash (https://dash.by/) or Mojio (https://www.moj.io/#whyMojio2) and take control, or get a non/de-computerized car; problem solved. One can whine about intrusive police state car inspections, or one can license his car out of a non-inspection state and never be inspected again; problem solved. These are solutions that will actually work, that are proven, and that you can implement yourself, unilaterally, instantaneously, with no approval from nor help from nor rallying of any other human being. Just yourself.

So, here's the question, take your pick, which would you rather experience in your life:

1. Problem solved
2. Endless whining

I clicked the links provided and I want no part of linking car computers to I-phones..

Pretty sure AF was talking about the same thing....

If, and that's a huge if, one is going to rely on computers to manage their vehicle it would seem that a stand alone computer owned by the consumer would be a better solution. Something that lets the owner decide which features to enable or disable, which fuel or braking parameters to use, whether or not data is stored or scrapped...

Or the option of carburetors and magnetos could be offered.......Same for mechanically injected diesel....

[helmuth_hubener]

And at this point it is pretty much impossible to take an old beater and rebuild it without the computers inside
Happily, this is not correct. Next time you stop over in Hawaii, notice how many VW Bugs there are tooling around on those islands.

Old cars are everywhere. Old trucks are everywhere. They won't disappear overnight. Accommodation is made, and will continue to be made.

You say:


because that car won't be up to code with all the new regulations.

and AF says:


What's going to happen is that all "old" vehicles will not be allowed to be driven or tagged. ...but my own future-predicting senses tell me that that is not a likely outcome. Wyoming is going to continue to license old trucks. So will Montana, North Dakota, Alaska, etc, etc. What, do they want a rancher uprising or something? Hawaii is going to continue to license old VW Bugs.

The walls may be closing in, but they're not nearly as close as you may think. The situation is not even close to as gloomy as you have been led to believe. Options are available.

[tod evans]

For gearheded nerds;

http://bigstuff3.com/

[helmuth_hubener]

I clicked the links provided and I want no part of linking car computers to I-phones..

or get a non/de-computerized car; problem solved.




If, and that's a huge if, one is going to rely on computers to manage their vehicle it would seem that a stand alone computer owned by the consumer would be a better solution. Something that lets the owner decide which features to enable or disable, which fuel or braking parameters to use, whether or not data is stored or scrapped...
That is the kind of thing you will be able to do with car-hacking solutions. It's at an early stage, but the apps will come.

If you want to do this stuff yourself, right now, with your existing vehicles, check out the CANtact (http://cantact.io/).

[helmuth_hubener]

Or, yes, you could just completely replace the electronics controller with a third-party one like BigStuff3.

[tod evans]

There's several things in play in regards to car 'lectronics..

The older generation isn't 'puter savvy enough to fiddle with much while the younger generation may be computer literate the mechanical components the electronics manage are beyond many...

Then government mandates and regulations get thrown into the mix....:eek:

It would seem that with the increasing cost of transportation that a pick-n-choose your features, build it yourself vehicle wouldn't be far off?

S&S has been offering kits to motorcyclists for years now....

[Anti Federalist]

It won't be long till someone figures out how to patent DNA. Then they'll snitch a bit of yours from whatever item you drooled or bled on...BAM...every "expression" of your DNA is property of the patent owner, and you get to pay royalties out the ass for the "privilege" of a lot of your very existence. Mark my words, brother.

I have no doubt.

[Anti Federalist]

"On the hook"? Did they not give him an estimate beforehand? Maybe mention, "Hey, we want to do 5 grand of work on your car, do you approve that?" Surely they did, or else surely he would be well within his rights (rights as understood by normal people, universally, not just by us) to refuse to pay and have them put it back the way it was. Why did he even bring it to the dealer in the first place?

On the hook in the sense that the dealer is the only one capable of re-flashing the ECM to recognize the new exhaust system components and stop throwing codes in order for the car to pass inspection.


I am not "poo-poo"-ing this proposal. As I said, I hate it as much as you do. It's an outrage that bureau-rats are even talking about doing this.

However, when problems arise in life, one can complain, or one can take action to fix the situation.

I'm more of a take action kind of a guy.

To be commended.

So am I. I pulled the engine and electronic controls from my 1993 F-150 and "retro" fitted a non electronic engine.


Oh, and how should I do that? How are you going to do it?

Sorry: doesn't sound like a thought-out action plan to me. Yes, let's squash it. Huzzah! But I have Zip idea how to do that with realistic chance of success, nor do you, I think. And so, I'll take a wrench in hand over 12 indignant squawkings in the bush.

I'm about solutions. One can whine about John Deere and his in-hindsight-poor decision to buy one, or one can join Farm Hack and do something about it; problem solved. One can whine about how computerized cars are becoming, or one can get Dash (https://dash.by/) or Mojio (https://www.moj.io/#whyMojio2) and take control, or get a non/de-computerized car; problem solved. One can whine about intrusive police state car inspections, or one can license his car out of a non-inspection state and never be inspected again; problem solved. These are solutions that will actually work, that are proven, and that you can implement yourself, unilaterally, instantaneously, with no approval from nor help from nor rallying of any other human being. Just yourself.

So, here's the question, take your pick, which would you rather experience in your life:

1. Problem solved
2. Endless whining

Yes, I agree, how to stop it eludes me, I'll make no bones about that.

But, like, say, zippyjuan, I think what you are lacking is vision.

Maybe it's because it is so foreign to you, you can't think like or get in the head of typical statist controller.

I can see long term, down the road, decades from now, where all this is heading, and see what the ramifications are for, not me, but my children and their children.

[Origanalist]

Well, not impossible, it can be done, you can buy a nicely restored truck for instance:

http://www.azcarsandtrucks.com/tlehmannlg7.jpg

For $10,000

Nothing wrong with this as a daily driver, and with careful care and maintenance will last another thirty years.

What's going to happen is that all "old" vehicles will not be allowed to be driven or tagged.

When that happens I'm screwed.

[Anti Federalist]

When that happens I'm screwed.

You and me both.

Outside of the diesel VW of mine, everything else in the fleet is well over 20 years old.

[helmuth_hubener]

But, like, say, zippyjuan, I think what you are lacking is vision.

Maybe it's because it is so foreign to you, you can't think like or get in the head of typical statist controller.

I can see long term, down the road, decades from now, where all this is heading, and see what the ramifications are for, not me, but my children and their children. Just because I propose solutions is not (IMO) a reason for assuming I lack vision. You read me as saying "Enh, this is not that bad. Don't worry. Move along." But it's a misread; actually, I think it's infuriatingly bad. I hate it. I loathe it. I loathe everything these rats do and everything they stand for. I don't need to envision unrealistic future doom scenarios for my grandchildren to be infuriated. To me, the doom's here now. It's bad enough now. I'm outraged now. To me, it's become boring and repetitive to express that outrage, however, and so I generally don't. That is likely why you misunderstood me.

We don't need to exaggerate or misunderstand the current and likely future situation in order to be outraged. Better that we should understand exactly what the situation is, good and bad, without hyperbole. Then we can deal with reality more effectively.


So am I. I pulled the engine and electronic controls from my 1993 F-150 and "retro" fitted a non electronic engine. Yes! See, this is exactly what we can do! And it's not that hard/expensive to do with these older trucks. Plenty of room under the hood to work. And if in a few years NH ever starts making it hard to tag it, just do as I say and get it licensed elsewhere. Wyoming prices the tag by blue book value, and so you can save a significant amount of money, too, on older vehicles. I feel like a plan like this should work fine for at least a decade.

[helmuth_hubener]

On the hook in the sense that the dealer is the only one capable of re-flashing the ECM to recognize the new exhaust system components and stop throwing codes in order for the car to pass inspection.

So NH has mandatory car inspections? Ah, I see emissions and periodic safety (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_inspection_in_the_United_States). Bummer.

I seriously would not license my vehicles there, AF. Michigan, Kentucky, and SC seem to be your closest havens. If this poor guy hadn't been going to inspection, he wouldn't have had a problem. Even then, he had other options, like going to a mechanic with a different plan of action to get it past inspection. There's never just one way to skin a cat.

But yeah, take-away is that you're in a a bad situation in NH there, AF. License elsewhere. Free yourself.

[Anti Federalist]

So NH has mandatory car inspections? Ah, I see emissions and periodic safety (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_inspection_in_the_United_States). Bummer.

I seriously would not license my vehicles there, AF. Michigan, Kentucky, and SC seem to be your closest havens. If this poor guy hadn't been going to inspection, he wouldn't have had a problem. Even then, he had other options, like going to a mechanic with a different plan of action to get it past inspection. There's never just one way to skin a cat.

But yeah, take-away is that you're in a a bad situation in NH there, AF. License elsewhere. Free yourself.

Ah, but the emissions are based solely on an OBDII readout of current codes.

Pre 1996 are exempt, thus the reason why I have a fleet of pre 1996 vehicles.

The 2009 VW he had was of course, stuck in the system.

He had tried a number of non dealer mechanics, VW however maintains a pretty tight grip on its aftermarket supply chain.

There is very little in non VW aftermarket parts out there.

Between the particulate re-burner and the ECM programming, it was pretty much a dealer only option.

Keep in mind all this nonsense is only there because of EPA mandates that force diesel exhaust to be as clean as wafting rose petals.

There is no good reason that half the US fleet should not be diesel powered, getting 50-60+ mpg in engines that will last 300,000 miles or more, other than ridiculously stringent emissions levels imposed solely by regulatory fatwa.

[helmuth_hubener]

Ah, but the emissions are based solely on an OBDII readout of current codes.

Pre 1996 are exempt, thus the reason why I have a fleet of pre 1996 vehicles.

The 2009 VW he had was of course, stuck in the system.

He had tried a number of non dealer mechanics, VW however maintains a pretty tight grip on its aftermarket supply chain.

There is very little in non VW aftermarket parts out there.

Between the particulate re-burner and the ECM programming, it was pretty much a dealer only option. Yeah, sounds like it.


Keep in mind all this nonsense is only there because of EPA mandates that force diesel exhaust to be as clean as wafting rose petals.

There is no good reason that half the US fleet should not be diesel powered, getting 50-60+ mpg in engines that will last 300,000 miles or more, other than ridiculously stringent emissions levels imposed solely by regulatory fatwa. Yes, I more or less agree. Diesel is pretty elegant.

[CPUd]

Such bullshit. This is like Microsoft and their software model now. You 'buy' Office, but pay a monthly fee instead of owning it outright. Corporations are looking to make you into a constant revenue stream, and lock you up forever. Anyway they can milk you, they'll do it. Hiding behind DCMA or other IP, licensing, TOS contracts etc., are the tools and their cronies working for the state do their bidding.

FFS, you don't own your land, your body, your thoughts....nothing

It's a SLA that is becoming standard for "the cloud model". All the real work is being done on their end, they deliver the results to your end. In 5 or 10 years, you won't be able to go to staples or whatever and buy a disc in a box, that section gets smaller every year. games are going that way, too.

Why are people paying for Office when they can get LibreOffice (that looks nearly the same and does nearly the same things) for free?

[helmuth_hubener]

Why are people paying for Office when they can get LibreOffice (that looks nearly the same and does nearly the same things) for free?

Because Office is better.

[Danke]

For AF: http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2015/05/07/keeping-your-car-safe-from-hacking/

[heavenlyboy34]

Because Office is better.

Bah humbug. I use OpenOffice and it works just as well. I use Adobe InDesign for srs bizness like layouts though, so IDK if my opinion technically counts here... :confused:

[CPUd]

Because Office is better.

I do believe Powerpoint is better than Impress.

Some people I work with use Office, so I multisave to PDF and Office 2003 formats. But I don't work with the 2007 .___x formats because they vex me.

[helmuth_hubener]

But I don't work with the 2007 .___x formats because they vex me. I also prefer pre-2007.