Automakers seeking federal approval to deem at-home car repairs a violation of DMCA copyright

[devil21]

It is federal government related, since the Feds now determine what constitutes a "copyright violation" under the DMCA, therefore this is appropriate subforum.

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/04/20/automakers-gearheads-car-repairs/


Automakers are supporting provisions in copyright law that could prohibit home mechanics and car enthusiasts from repairing and modifying their own vehicles.

In comments filed with a federal agency that will determine whether tinkering with a car constitutes a copyright violation, OEMs and their main lobbying organization say cars have become too complex and dangerous for consumers and third parties to handle.

Allowing them to continue to fix their cars has become "legally problematic," according to a written statement from the Auto Alliance, the main lobbying arm of automakers.

The dispute arises from a section of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act that no one thought could apply to vehicles when it was signed into law in 1998. But now, in an era where cars are rolling computing platforms, the U.S. Copyright Office is examining whether provisions of the law that protect intellectual property should prohibit people from modifying and tuning their cars.

more at link

[tod evans]

Insanity! :mad:

[asurfaholic]

Full steam ahead tyranny :(

[VIDEODROME]

Fuckit, I'm installing Linux on mah car.

[Anti Federalist]

Told you so.

Told you ten years ago, this was going to happen.

Fuck A Bunch Of Computer Cars

[sparebulb]

Told you so.

Told you ten years ago, this was going to happen.

Fuck A Bunch Of Computer Cars


Sorry AF,

Your '63 Rambler 'Murikan won't pass a future inspection.

It will no longer be safe to drive on the autobahn, per statutes.

Bet you feel screwed now after Mittens' daddy pitched this car to your parents on the merits of its safety features.

Ironically, I bet that Mittens is OK with this court ruling.

[FindLiberty]

Linux?

Instead, strike at the root.

Simply "upgrade" the entire fed/gov down to a single hardened RISC processor with a heartbeat monitor that reboots itself every 4,294,967,295 milliseconds (~49.7 days) from a ROM that's permanently loaded with binary versions of the U. S. Constitution and the first 10 amendments. Optionally, running Kaspersky anti-tyranny protection is highly recommended.

[Anti Federalist]

Yup, that's next.

Oh, sure, you'll be able to get tags for a "classic" car, but you won't be able to drive it everyday, you'll be restricted to 500 miles a year, daytime only and outrageous insurance fees.


Sorry AF,

Your '63 Rambler 'Murikan won't pass a future inspection.

It will no longer be safe to drive on the autobahn, per statutes.

Bet you feel screwed now after Mittens' daddy pitched this car to your parents on the merits of its safety features.

Ironically, I bet that Mittens is OK with this court ruling.

[devil21]

Can't have people saving money that stealerships deserve nor modifying their new spymobiles. How ya gonna tax-by-mile if Joe Schmo can disable the GPS tracker or pull a Hastings on a loudmouth if he can disable remote controlled braking and steering?

It's not like you ever own your car any way. You just rent it from government. You did sign over the title to them, remember?

[Christopher A. Brown]

Told you so.

Told you ten years ago, this was going to happen.

Fuck A Bunch Of Computer Cars

I have to agree. Even the ECU is offensive. All those advances and they only added about 5mpg average.

If we were unified as a people and had more tightly knit communities, we could make this backfire in their face.

What if 25 families that we more or less neighbors, perhaps a few thousand such groups in cities, had the where-with-all to say ENOUGH! They all give up on consumerism, share a 1 ton 14 passenger van and only do politics for fun and fulfillment.

Abandon the entire needless consumer package, all of it not associated with needs. No more travel to sports, no more motor vacations, only protests and shopping for necessities. Publicize that it was all done because of automakers collusion with government creating tyrannical control over the machines that are supposed to be private property.

Watch a bunch of hate from the corporate world exploiting consumers get focused on automakers for waking up their cash cow.

Yea, I know how fancifully unlikely it is, but we are going to be forced there anyway eventually IF we can maintain enough freedom.

[Anti Federalist]

I have to agree. Even the ECU is offensive. All those advances and they only added about 5mpg average.

If we were unified as a people and had more tightly knit communities, we could make this backfire in their face.

What if 25 families that we more or less neighbors, perhaps a few thousand such groups in cities, had the where-with-all to say ENOUGH! They all give up on consumerism, share a 1 ton 14 passenger van and only do politics for fun and fulfillment.

Abandon the entire needless consumer package, all of it not associated with needs. No more travel to sports, no more motor vacations, only protests and shopping for necessities. Publicize that it was all done because of automakers collusion with government creating tyrannical control over the machines that are supposed to be private property.

Watch a bunch of hate from the corporate world exploiting consumers get focused on automakers for waking up their cash cow.

Yea, I know how fancifully unlikely it is, but we are going to be forced there anyway eventually IF we can maintain enough freedom.

Or get government out of the auto business, and let people buy what they want.

You don't NEED a computer car, or all the government mandated nonsense that drives the cost and complexity up.

Millions of people get around in Tata Nanos, currently the cheapest new car available, at about $3000.

Of course, you can't buy or drive one here in the land of the free.

Nor can you buy any one of numerous 60-70 MPG diesel cars and mini trucks here.

[Anti Federalist]

What you can't have.

http://media.treehugger.com/assets/images/2011/10/Ford-Focus-Econetic-photo-01.jpg

[Christopher A. Brown]

Or get government out of the auto business, and let people buy what they want.

You don't NEED a computer car, or all the government mandated nonsense that drives the cost and complexity up.

Millions of people get around in Tata Nanos, currently the cheapest new car available, at about $3000.

Of course, you can't buy or drive one here in the land of the free.

Nor can you buy any one of numerous 60-70 MPG diesel cars and mini trucks here.

Yes, get gov out that biz and cease the service to US automakers by blocking the imports you mention. I had forgotten about that.

I mean didn't they just get bailed out by tax dollars? They apparently mismanaged themselves so badly they were going belly up. Now the gov is babysitting their profits 'cause they can't build as good of a machine as foreign corporations.

What goes around comes around. The dumbing down cost the elite bit time too.

How hypocritical to have "free trade" agreements for multinational corporations then block what consumers need in order to benefit American corporations.

These are all things that a lawful and peaceful revolution can address very well. Not to mention some overarching issues that can be dealt with no other way.

[jclay2]

What you can't have.

http://media.treehugger.com/assets/images/2011/10/Ford-Focus-Econetic-photo-01.jpg

After you mentioned it, I looked this car up. Apparently it is not in the states due to the high cost of meeting EPA requirements. What a joke.

[tangent4ronpaul]

Told you so.

Told you ten years ago, this was going to happen.

Fuck A Bunch Of Computer Cars

Watch the second clip here.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?472980-VIDEO-Darpa-Memex-project

remember a certain reporter?

-t

[muh_roads]

Because the gold standard dollar was swapped for the "oil standard" sometime around '71, all the shitty things are shitty things by design.

You guys should check out a movie called PUMP on netflix. They talk about how most cars with the ODB2 port can be reprogrammed by a simple laptop to become Flex vehicles and can accept E85 without needing new engine parts. They make the claim that the engine parts for both gasoline and ethanol are identical. The ethanol is only bad on the engine if the software is programmed for gasoline-only.

[tangent4ronpaul]

Ethanol drives up food prices.

You are also paying hidden taxes for it via subsidies.

Even the environmentalists think it's a horrible idea.

-t

[devil21]

Because the gold standard dollar was swapped for the "oil standard" sometime around '71, all the shitty things are shitty things by design.

You guys should check out a movie called PUMP on netflix. They talk about how most cars with the ODB2 port can be reprogrammed by a simple laptop to become Flex vehicles and can accept E85 without needing new engine parts. They make the claim that the engine parts for both gasoline and ethanol are identical. The ethanol is only bad on the engine if the software is programmed for gasoline-only.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKw5mBh4rYs

Sorry....just fit.

[GunnyFreedom]

Fine. The answer is obviously an open source automaker.

[puppetmaster]

After you mentioned it, I looked this car up. Apparently it is not in the states due to the high cost of meeting EPA requirements. What a joke. more likely the lost revenue from taxes. They only pretend they are concerned about the environment when in reality it is money and control they must have.

[GunnyFreedom]

more likely the lost revenue from taxes. They only pretend they are concerned about the environment when in reality it is money and control they must have.

This is true. Much of the diesel stuff stems from Europe formerly offering a much cleaner grade of diesel fuel than the US. Ours contained high amounts of sulfur. Therefore diesel engines were dirtier here than they were in Europe. Nearly all American diesel is now also low sulfur, so even if it once made sense (it didn't really) it clearly no longer does. It's just an excuse.

[Henry Rogue]

Automakers are supporting provisions in copyright law that could prohibit home mechanics and car enthusiasts from repairing and modifying their own vehicles.

In comments filed with a federal agency that will determine whether tinkering with a car constitutes a copyright violation, OEMs and their main lobbying organization say cars have become too complex and dangerous for consumers and third parties to handle.

Allowing them to continue to fix their cars has become "legally problematic," according to a written statement from the Auto Alliance, the main lobbying arm of automakers.

The dispute arises from a section of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act that no one thought could apply to vehicles when it was signed into law in 1998. But now, in an era where cars are rolling computing platforms, the U.S. Copyright Office is examining whether provisions of the law that protect intellectual property should prohibit people from modifying and tuning their cars.

Lol, more laws more chaos. IP monopoly protection revealing its absurdity.

[GunnyFreedom]

Need to write a Linux based onboard management software that "virtual boxes" any OEM ECU, and make it all open source so all anyone has to do is replace their ECU with this open source one that can mimic any car on the planet and you are good to go. No DMCA violations because we tossed your junk software out the window.

[GunnyFreedom]

[User adjustments]
[OEM SW Emulator] ------ [OEM ECU]
[Virtual Box] ------ [OEM Passthrough Module]
[User-Accessed Switch]
[Linux Computer Open-ECU]
|
|
|
[Vehicle Chassis]

[Danke]

///

[Christopher A. Brown]

Because the gold standard dollar was swapped for the "oil standard" sometime around '71, all the shitty things are shitty things by design.

You guys should check out a movie called PUMP on netflix. They talk about how most cars with the ODB2 port can be reprogrammed by a simple laptop to become Flex vehicles and can accept E85 without needing new engine parts. They make the claim that the engine parts for both gasoline and ethanol are identical. The ethanol is only bad on the engine if the software is programmed for gasoline-only.

I will view that.

If Americans could rise to a lawful and peaceful revolution,

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?471555-A-lawful-and-peaceful-revolution

The FDA could be controlled and hemp could provide ethanol instead of corn. In that process there are other substantial savings.

We have so many failures of governmental agencies to do their job properly related to this issue, that anything but a lawful and peaceful revolution is easily seen as superfluous.

[Brian4Liberty]

Why are you guys all hating on managed free trade? You are protectionists and isolationists! The government-corporate complex always knows best, resistance is futile.

[invisible]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKw5mBh4rYs

Sorry....just fit.

OMG! One of the greatest movies of all time! The karate kick in that scene is classic! And just so many great quotes!
"I'm so bad I kick my own ass twice a day"
"And while you was gone, I put your girls through karate school"
"Tell him I want him out of here in 24 hours, and 23 of them are already gone"
I could quote that movie all day, lol. If you watch the closing credits carefully, the dojo scenes were filmed in Chuck Norris' place.

edit: you must spread some reputation around..

[muh_roads]

I will view that.

If Americans could rise to a lawful and peaceful revolution,

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?471555-A-lawful-and-peaceful-revolution

The FDA could be controlled and hemp could provide ethanol instead of corn. In that process there are other substantial savings.

We have so many failures of governmental agencies to do their job properly related to this issue, that anything but a lawful and peaceful revolution is easily seen as superfluous.

Yeah definitely check that movie out. Everyone should. The one thing it didn't talk about was hemp for ethanol, which was a bit infuriating. And when talking about corn ethanol choking food supply, they sorta danced around that with very quick convoluted answers.

Otherwise I learned a lot that I hadn't heard before. There are forums out there I guess where people talk all day long about software tuning your on-board computer. Makes sense why they want to keep that illegal...can't let ppl get away from oil too quickly...

[limequat]

These are the automakers that make up the Alliance that's pushing for this:


BMW Group
FCA US LLC
Ford Motor Company
General Motors Corporation
Jaguar Land Rover
Mazda
Mercedes-Benz USA
Mitsubishi Motors
Porsche
Toyota
Volkswagen Group of America
Volvo Cars North America

[RonPaulIsGreat]

You can't fix that, build that, not buy that -- President Obama, second to last president of the former United States of America.

[tangent4ronpaul]

Repair, smare. Just print out a new car on a 3D printer.
(someone has already done it)

-t

[oyarde]

Well these dipshits are trying to peddle wares that are yearly , median income priced.Why would they need fixed at all ? for 40K they should stand by the product , or at least man up and challenge me to a duel when I replace a battery, alternator , tailight .Pussies.

[invisible]

Repair, smare. Just print out a new car on a 3D printer.
(someone has already done it)

-t

Did it pass the inspection and emissions testing?

[PRB]

Sorry AF,

Your '63 Rambler 'Murikan won't pass a future inspection.

It will no longer be safe to drive on the autobahn, per statutes.

Bet you feel screwed now after Mittens' daddy pitched this car to your parents on the merits of its safety features.

Ironically, I bet that Mittens is OK with this court ruling.

Not ironic, they sold you a POS so they can sell you another one.

as far as copyright violation, is it for all cars? or just cars which involve computing?

[Christopher A. Brown]

These are the automakers that make up the Alliance that's pushing for this:


BMW Group
FCA US LLC
Ford Motor Company
General Motors Corporation
Jaguar Land Rover
Mazda
Mercedes-Benz USA
Mitsubishi Motors
Porsche
Toyota
Volkswagen Group of America
Volvo Cars North America

Virtually all of them.

Okay, time for a journey into absolutes.

Corporations trying to be dictators because we cannot unify and cannot be independent.

If we could be independent, we would not need them.

If we could unify, we could compel them to do what is needed.

Instead of what they want, profit.

Letting them get what they want eventually destroys what we need. Air and water that are pure. They need good air and water too.

Letting them get what they want because of what we want, ease, comfort and convenience, let's them feel better than us. Like we are incompetent and cannot get what we want without destroying vital elements, so they have to manage it for us to stretch out their profit making as long as possible,

Wants are infinite, needs are limited.

What if we could change what we wanted, so it did not interfere with what we needed?

Is there anyone here that can discuss in the realm of absolutes, or is it all corpspeak?

[PRB]

These are the automakers that make up the Alliance that's pushing for this:


BMW Group
FCA US LLC
Ford Motor Company
General Motors Corporation
Jaguar Land Rover
Mazda
Mercedes-Benz USA
Mitsubishi Motors
Porsche
Toyota
Volkswagen Group of America
Volvo Cars North America

much easier to count the car companies that DON'T want this.

[tangent4ronpaul]

Did it pass the inspection and emissions testing?

There were "issues" with licensing, so they drove it on a race track. It worked!

-t

[PRB]

Virtually all of them.

Okay, time for a journey into absolutes.

Corporations trying to be dictators because we cannot unify and cannot be independent.

If we could be independent, we would not need them.


Nobody is forcing you to buy any car.



If we could unify, we could compel them to do what is needed.

Instead of what they want, profit.


Who is we and why do you want to unify to compel anybody to do anything? Compulsion is force, force is violence.

[Christopher A. Brown]

Nobody is forcing you to buy any car.

Who is we and why do you want to unify to compel anybody to do anything? Compulsion is force, force is violence.

Our social system forces compliance to fulfill needs.

Corporations are not people, they do not have bodies. They are fictions comprised of groups of people that have committed to an unnatural agreement that our social system has normalized for temporary exploitation of people.

Their groups are the one forcing us a into extinction because they adhere to the social system that forces conformance to social norms that are unnatural. Ask the Indigenous Americans if this is true.

Are you a covert agent attempting cognitive infiltration?

[CPUd]

Need to write a Linux based onboard management software that "virtual boxes" any OEM ECU, and make it all open source so all anyone has to do is replace their ECU with this open source one that can mimic any car on the planet and you are good to go. No DMCA violations because we tossed your junk software out the window.


https://github.com/makes/c30-linux

or


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UqRoWkUPvik

[PRB]

Our social system forces compliance to fulfill needs.


What system and what needs?



Corporations are not people, they do not have bodies.


Corporations are either groups of people (like a political party) or assets (property owned by people).



They are fictions comprised of groups of people that have committed to an unnatural agreement that our social system has normalized for temporary exploitation of people.


Care to elaborate or explain by specific example?



Their groups are the one forcing us a into extinction because they adhere to the social system that forces conformance to social norms that are unnatural. Ask the Indigenous Americans if this is true.


What do native Americans have to do with corporations??




Are you a covert agent attempting cognitive infiltration?

I'm not talking out of my ass if that's what you're asking.

[Dr.3D]

I'll work on my own vehicles, catch me if you can.

[Weston White]

OK, how then about a lobby group to counter this stupidity with legislation pertaining to interstate commerce that all digital components included in any manufactured automobile must be functionally independent form the mechanical operation of the vehicle at all times or otherwise each violation is a federal felony amounting to 10-years in prison and/or a $1-million fine--all aftermarket upgrades would be exempted?

[Christopher A. Brown]

What system and what needs?

Corporations are either groups of people (like a political party) or assets (property owned by people).

Care to elaborate or explain by specific example?

What do native Americans have to do with corporations??

I'm not talking out of my ass if that's what you're asking.

Pretending you do not understand these terms or relationships is cognitively ineffective and I'm not participating.

I will ask you if you accept that the ultimate purpose of free speech is to enable unity adequate to alter or abolish government destructive to our unalienable rights?

[PRB]

Pretending you do not understand these terms or relationships is cognitively ineffective and I'm not participating.


You give me too much credit, I ask because I am honestly lost on what you mean.



I will ask you if you accept that the ultimate purpose of free speech is to enable unity adequate to alter or abolish government destructive to our unalienable rights?

Minor semantic disagreement, so I'll put it this way.

Free speech, like any other God given right, is an end of itself, not a means to an end. However, the legal and practical consequence of guaranteeing free speech, and other freedoms given to man by God, is to keep government in check. Government's authority is the result of free people who gave it, freedom is not the result of government's generosity.

Does that answer you?

[Mach]

If they were going to really try this they would have to ban car part sales to private consumers in all 50 states and I don't see that entire industry just saying... yeah, ok, cool, whatever.

[PRB]

If they were going to really try this they would have to ban car part sales to private consumers in all 50 states and I don't see that entire industry just saying... yeah, ok, cool, whatever.

That's basically why I am asking if it's all repairs and modifications, or only those which pertain to computing.

Of course the after market and car part, car repair industry isn't going to just roll over, but too bad they don't have enough money and thugs to pressure politicians over it.

[Ronin Truth]

The whiny butt automakers can just take their DMCA copyright and stick it where the sun doesn't shine. :p :mad:

[Christopher A. Brown]

You give me too much credit, I ask because I am honestly lost on what you mean.

I'm posting on a phone, meaning I'm not able to expand explanation regarding corporations and what they are, why they are and their limits or agendas. They are not people, they are groups of people. Not the same.


Minor semantic disagreement, so I'll put it this way.

Free speech, like any other God given right, is an end of itself, not a means to an end.

Not minor within the framework of law.


However, the legal and practical consequence of guaranteeing free speech, and other freedoms given to man by God, is to keep government in check. Government's authority is the result of free people who gave it, freedom is not the result of government's generosity.

Does that answer you?

You are not wrong, but not comprehensively correct with your answer. But we have advanced to a point where the lack of an answer to another question should elicit agreement and acceptance of the first question.

How did the framers intend for the people to have the power to alter or abolish government destructive to the peoples unalienable rights if freedom of speech was not what what had the implied intent to serve that purpose?

God is a different subject all together and really more of a feature of our unconscious existence but as our conscious social systems become more aware of the eternal intent, we develop as individuals and assure our continuity as a species.

[Christopher A. Brown]

Of course the after market and car part, car repair industry isn't going to just roll over, but too bad they don't have enough money and thugs to pressure politicians over it.

The people can have that power IF they align with agreement upon rights that work to assure existence.

[Christopher A. Brown]

OK, how then about a lobby group to counter this stupidity with legislation pertaining to interstate commerce that all digital components included in any manufactured automobile must be functionally independent form the mechanical operation of the vehicle at all times or otherwise each violation is a federal felony amounting to 10-years in prison and/or a $1-million fine--all aftermarket upgrades would be exempted?

This is a good idea. It can go hand in hand with a lawful peaceful revolution. Basically when the people initiate governmental control over corporations, it's a good thing.

It's a situation where consumer options are protected. However, consumers probably need to unlearn some corporatism related to high performance. When environmental concerns replace that, it becomes more constitutional.

Corporations exploited our instincts dynamically related to high perf cars, speed, power etc, and it's not really a good thing just for the sake of it. I won't deny that there is an occasional need for a light fast vehicle, but rarely is there one for a heavy fast one unless it's a fire truck or ambulance.

Aside from that, some manufacturers clearly have some superior components and that's where your lobby concept can really pay off in several ways. Interchangeability that allows high efficiency, longevity and environment impacts that empower consumers to easily upgrade systems according to what actually works best, after being proven out by usage, will really put the right kind of pressure on manufacturers.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

...I ask because I am honestly lost on what you mean.





Honestly? You? LOL.

[pcosmar]

Fine. The answer is obviously an open source automaker.

Where is John DeLorean these days?

Oh yeah,, he's dead.

[Christopher A. Brown]

Honestly? You? LOL.

Yes, that lack of accountability issue is a glaring feature.

Hey, but at least old De Loreans
http://e.fastcompany.net/multisite_files/coexist/article_feature/delorean-ev-main.jpg
and Clenets are around for bored Americans to work on.
http://www.clenetclub.com/images/clenet/SerI-Car168-A-1920x1200.jpg

[devil21]

John Deere is taking the same angle on their products too.

http://www.wired.com/2015/04/dmca-ownership-john-deere/


It’s official: John Deere and General Motors want to eviscerate the notion of ownership. Sure, we pay for their vehicles. But we don’t own them. Not according to their corporate lawyers, anyway.

In a particularly spectacular display of corporate delusion, John Deere—the world’s largest agricultural machinery maker —told the Copyright Office that farmers don’t own their tractors. Because computer code snakes through the DNA of modern tractors, farmers receive “an implied license for the life of the vehicle to operate the vehicle.”

It’s John Deere’s tractor, folks. You’re just driving it.

much more at link

Check out the comments section for a lesson in how to derail the hell out of a comment section. 600 comments and almost none are about the article itself until you scroll through the first couple hundred, which most people don't.

Also, if you use banker funny money in the transaction, you never own the property you obtained with it. That's part of the contract one agrees to when using their funny money. I see things like this DMCA stuff as not so much about creeping tyranny, but rather about the tyranny that's existed since 1913 simply losing pieces of it's facade.

[LibForestPaul]

Linux?

Instead, strike at the root.

Simply "upgrade" the entire fed/gov down to a single hardened RISC processor with a heartbeat monitor that reboots itself every 4,294,967,295 milliseconds (~49.7 days) from a ROM that's permanently loaded with binary versions of the U. S. Constitution and the first 10 amendments. Optionally, running Kaspersky anti-tyranny protection is highly recommended.

How far off do you think this is...Buck rogers 2500?

All decisions based on Deep Blue...

[Anti Federalist]

It’s John Deere’s tractor, folks. You’re just driving it.

It's the same for everything else.

You'll own nothing, serf, and like it.

We're all nothing but chattel.

Enjoy your brave new world.

[JK/SEA]

i can't work on these new cars anyway. My tool box is for pre-seventy cars. I bought a 2014 FORD Escape Titanium. Haven't even looked under the hood yet. No point, except to wipe the dust off the engine.