PDA

View Full Version : The EPA and refrigerant regulations




tod evans
04-11-2015, 06:15 AM
This reeks of a conspiracy to me....:mad:




Feeling the chill: EPA ban on common coolants has lawmakers, industry worried

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/04/11/feeling-chill-epa-ban-on-common-coolants-has-lawmakers-industry-worried/?intcmp=latestnews

Lawmakers and industry groups are worried fast-approaching Environmental Protection Agency rules banning certain gases used in commercial refrigeration and air conditioners could have a chilling effect on business.

The EPA is looking to impose the new rules starting in January 2016, restricting refrigeration coolants commonly found in grocery stores, restaurants and cars -- not only in fridges and air conditioners but also vending machines and insulation.

Critics, though, complain the proposed rules would force commercial refrigeration to shift from what's known as hydrofluorocarbons (HFCs) to alternative coolants -- only a few years after they were told HFCs were the best alternative to ozone-depleting gasses.

And they’re worried about the tight timetable, calling the January 2016 deadline “arbitrary and capricious.”

“That [deadline] puts everyone in a difficult position, with manufacturers not knowing how to spend their resources and dollars,” said Stephen Yurek, president and CEO of the Air Conditioning, Heating and Refrigeration Institute.

“We just can’t go to our members and tell them not to worry about it.”

Rep. Kyle Whitfield, R-Ky., chairman of the House energy and power subcommittee, is also raising concerns, sending a letter to the EPA last week asking for more information about the rules.

“I understand the consensus among the affected companies in the refrigeration, motor vehicle and insulation industries is that the proposed compliance requirement would cause considerable economic harm and job losses, and may increase rather than reduce safety for the American public,” he wrote.

Part of the problem is industry voices say they can’t keep up with federal rules that dictate what is and what isn’t killing the ozone layer and spewing dangerous greenhouse gasses into the air.

More than 20 years ago, the EPA, under the guidance of the Montreal Protocol, decided to end the use of hydrochlorofluorocarbons (HCFCs) because they were accelerating ozone depletion. At the time, HFCs were considered a better alternative because they are safer for the ozone.

But now, HFCs are said to be contributing to greenhouse gas emissions 1,430 times more damaging to the climate than carbon dioxide, as the demand for utilities using HFCs in developing nations rises.

“If HFC growth continues on the current trajectory, the increase in HFC emissions is projected to offset much of the climate benefit achieved by phasing out ozone-depleting substances,” the EPA has stated. It estimates commercial refrigeration accounts for approximately 32 percent of global HFC use.

The EPA issued the new proposed rules (as an amendment to the Clean Air Act) in July 2014, and opened them up to public comment. The agency has not said when the final rules will be announced. The EPA did not return a request for comment.

Whitfield, in his letter, said not only are there concerns with the phase-out but there were concerns with the potential alternatives – one being a specific, flammable alternative gas. Aside from the refrigerants, all foam-blowing sprays used for insulation must be HFC-free by January 2017, and motor vehicle air conditioners by 2021.

Any new construction after the deadline will have to incorporate machines using HFC alternatives. While retail owners will be allowed to use their existing machines with HFCs after January 2016, they won’t be able to buy replacement parts for the old technology, and will eventually have to transition all equipment to adjust to the new coolants.

Whitfield contends it’s a costly process and “American consumers will bear much of the cost of the proposed rule” through higher prices and less energy efficiency. He doesn’t even know if the new rules would be “legal” under the Clean Air Act.

Avipsa Mahapatra, international climate policy analyst at Environmental Investigation Agency, does not agree with Whitfield’s assessment. She said good alternatives are out there, and supermarkets are already taking advantage of them in Europe and Canada and in scattered stores in the U.S.

“It makes good business sense,” she said, insisting that the replacement gases are more efficient, and safer, than the HFCs. She pointed out that globally, HFCs are being phased out, and said the U.S. is in a great position to lead the shift.

Already, major chemical and technology companies like DuPont, Coca-Cola and Honeywell have signed on, with millions of dollars, to make the transition work.

“The [current] technology is becoming obsolete,” Mahapatra told FoxNews.com. “I do not believe this new rule would kill business. If anything it is an amazing opportunity for American businesses to be leaders. In five, 10 or 15 years, when the rest of the world is looking to buy new technology, they will look toward to the U.S. to buy it.”

Yurek said, for his association, it’s not necessarily the rules but the time frame that has them scratching their heads.

“We understand we have to move to refrigeration [coolants] that are available, and that have low global warming potential,” he said. The institute has also pledged $5 million for research and development to find such alternatives. “We want to limit the environmental impact.”

However, “there is all sorts of pressure” to move now, and without widely approved alternatives.

“Everybody is researching and trying to find the alternative that provides the best efficiency and performance – and we don’t have that yet,” Yurek said. “[The deadline is] coming fast. We want to comply but it is so disconcerting.”

Anti Federalist
04-11-2015, 12:44 PM
If congress would get off it's dead ass and assume the role it is supposed to play, there would be less of this nonsense.

What are we paying these cocksuckers for anyway, if it is just the bureaucracy that rules us, by decree and mandate, now?

Regulation without Representation.

Anti Federalist
04-11-2015, 12:50 PM
Meanwhile, stock up on your 134A while you can.

phill4paul
04-11-2015, 12:52 PM
Ecoterrorist Partnership Authoritay. Doing all it can to destroy economic growth to benefit climate change/One World Order special interests.

euphemia
04-11-2015, 03:13 PM
I posted on this article. I think the first thing that should happen is that Congress should cut the EPA's utility budget. No heat or AC, no refrigerators, coffee makers, or soft drink machines. See how long that lasts.

navy-vet
04-11-2015, 03:56 PM
BS!!!!!!

donnay
04-11-2015, 04:06 PM
Someone's favor is being called in. EPA also said the air was safe to breath after 9/11. This agency is worthless and needs to go!

PRB
04-11-2015, 05:23 PM
If global warming is a scam, why do we need coolants?

donnay
04-11-2015, 05:52 PM
If global warming is a scam, why do we need coolants?

Because in the summer it is hot--some places hotter than others.

Stratovarious
04-11-2015, 06:23 PM
70's THE ICE AGE IS COMING WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE !!!! .....
80's OZONE !!!! WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE!!!! BAN HAIR SPRAY....
90's R13 !!!!!! WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE !!!!!
2000's .. GLOBAL WARMING WE'LL ALL BE DEAD THE SKY IS FALLING !!!!!

Only Al Gore can save us with the first real push for GLOBAL TAXES, of which billions will/would line his pockets through the exchange he
co created.

Freedom is no good without TYRANNICAL GLOBALISM....


Three Cheers for the NEW WORLD ORDER ,,,,,HIP HIP ....



:cry::cry::cry:



, ,

Stratovarious
04-11-2015, 06:28 PM
EPA is the only alphabet agency I trust;

When RADIATION LEAKAGE BECOMES INCREDIBLY OVER THE TOP PPM dangerous, they raise the unsafe levels to SAFE X's 1000's .

See what they did there , God Bless Corrupt Government , their heart is always in the right spot.


, ,

PRB
04-11-2015, 06:40 PM
70's THE ICE AGE IS COMING WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIE !!!! .....
, ,

Not true.
http://www.skepticalscience.com/ice-age-predictions-in-1970s-intermediate.htm

echo1
04-11-2015, 07:17 PM
Of course...this is another implementation of Agenda 21..and UN policies in the United States.

Stratovarious
04-11-2015, 07:27 PM
I just sent a check to The New World Order Global Cooling Corporation ATTN: Chicken Little, and dated it 1977 so they'd know waht to use it for.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kGB5MMIAVA

, ,

PRB
04-11-2015, 07:36 PM
Of course...this is another implementation of Agenda 21..and UN policies in the United States.

I said that already.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?472106-UN-Climate-Official-%93We-Should-Make-Every-Effort%94-To-Decrease-World-Population&p=5832980&viewfull=1#post5832980

PRB
04-11-2015, 07:36 PM
I just sent a check to The New World Order Global Cooling Corporation ATTN: Chicken Little, and dated it 1977 so they'd know waht to use it for.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kGB5MMIAVA

, ,

not backed by scientific consensus.

HVACTech
04-11-2015, 07:48 PM
I REALLY don't see this happening. R404A has only been around since the mid to late 90's. and now they are going to ban it?
get real.
R-404A was the only good one of the lot for commercial refrigeration. nearly everything is running it now. (we don't use 134A anymore AF)(but it is still good for cars and domestic appliances. :))
what they are pushing is CO2, but it is only in the pilot stage.
R-410A (puron) is the "golden child" it has been in the domestic market since the late 90's and is only now being forced into the commercial sector.
there are no refrigeration applications for it that I know of.

all of these different gasses, (freon) are making it tough on the young guys. us old dogs were trained when there were only 3. (high, medium and low)
personally, I am getting out of the business, (sorta) and moving in a new direction.

in the same way that it happened to electronics, they seem to be getting rid of real tech's.
and making everything "plug and pray"

:)

Anti Federalist
04-11-2015, 08:02 PM
If global warming is a scam, why do we need coolants?

Because billions of people rely on a safe food supply that requires refrigeration and refrigerants.

Anti Federalist
04-11-2015, 08:13 PM
I REALLY don't see this happening.

Yeah, that's what everybody said about R12.


(we don't use 134A anymore AF)(but it is still good for cars and domestic appliances. :))

Yah that's all I was referencing, automotive use, since I don't fuss around much with stationary systems.

The new "green" refrigerant mandated by EU and EPA is just ducky...all new cars have to use R1234yf.

Joy.

Regulation without Representation.

HVACTech
04-11-2015, 08:20 PM
Because billions of people rely on a safe food supply that requires refrigeration and refrigerants.

this is true.
while they ALL operate on the same principle. (vapor compression)
refrigeration and A/C equipment differ,
in the fact that refrigeration equipment has to run in all weather.
:)

HVACTech
04-11-2015, 08:25 PM
Yeah, that's what everybody said about R12.



Yah that's all I was referencing, automotive use, since I don't fuss around much with stationary systems.

The new "green" refrigerant mandated by EU and EPA is just ducky...all new cars have to use R1234yf.

Joy.

Regulation without Representation.

yeah, I laughed my lmao when I heard that one! R1234yf. 1234 YourFucked! :D

it is still vapor compression btw.

Anti Federalist
04-11-2015, 08:35 PM
yeah, I laughed my lmao when I heard that one! R1234yf. 1234 YourFucked! :D

it is still vapor compression btw.

If cars had these again, most AC use would not be required.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/money/dam/assets/130701103621-vent-window-620xb.jpg

HVACTech
04-11-2015, 08:40 PM
check this shit out. an adjustable TXV? oh, now we are having fun!

http://www2.dupont.com/Refrigerants/en_US/assets/downloads/SmartAutoAC/2008_SAE_ARSS_Visteon_Eval.pdf

I can make sense of those stupid charts if you like. in a sealed vessel, temperature and pressure are the same thing.

what matters is the BTU content per Lb evaporated.
peace.

HVACTech
04-11-2015, 08:52 PM
If cars had these again, most AC use would not be required.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/money/dam/assets/130701103621-vent-window-620xb.jpg

you will get a big argument out of Suze over that one.
here in the south, our women are hot.
:cool:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRWUoDpo2fo&feature=player_detailpage

presence
04-11-2015, 09:12 PM
If cars had these again, most AC use would not be required.



If cars had these they'd stay icy cold in the summer time with engine off.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlJzefbn3EU

HVACTech
04-11-2015, 09:38 PM
If cars had these they'd stay icy cold in the summer time with engine off.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlJzefbn3EU

WTF?

was that? :confused:

)in case you have NOT noticed, I am HVACTech(

:p

Anti Federalist
04-11-2015, 09:46 PM
WTF?

was that? :confused:

)in case you have NOT noticed, I am HVACTech(

:p

You have never heard of the "Icy Ball" refrigeration system?

All it needs is a fire.

http://crosleyautoclub.com/IcyBall/HomeBuilt/HallPlans/LarryHall.GIF

http://crosleyautoclub.com/IcyBall/HomeBuilt/HomeBuilt.html

http://crosleyautoclub.com/IcyBall/crosley_icyball.html

Crosley bought the rights to the Icyball refrigeration idea, and brought it to market. Powel Crosley had a gift for recognizing great ideas and gift for marketing. Crosley built thousands of Icyballs in at least two factories, one in the United States and one in Canada. Icyballs have been spotted throughout North America and as far away as Africa. The Canadian made Icyballs carry a tag indicating that they are Deforest Crosley Icyball, those made in the USA are labeled Crosley Icyball.

The Icyball is an intermittent heat absorption type of refrigerator. A water/ammonia mixture is used as the refrigerant . Water and ammonia combine easily. So, they combine in the hot ball at room temperature.

When the hot ball is heated, for about 90 minutes, the ammonia evaporates first because it has a lower boiling point than water. The other cylinder is in water to help condense the ammonia in the cold ball. When the balls are fully charged, the cold ball is placed in the insulated box, as the ammonia evaporates to recombine with the water in the hot ball it removes heat, cooling the inside of the refrigerator for 24+ hours. A hole in the cold ball was for a special ice cube tray.

HVACTech
04-11-2015, 09:57 PM
not backed by scientific consensus.

dear PRB.
sir. I am having a REAL hard time understanding something..
perhaps YOU can explain it to me sir.

what does "cold" mean?

is there a metric that I can use to understand this word?

:confused:

after nearly 30 years in the HVAC business. why don't YOU explain it to me. :)

kpitcher
04-11-2015, 09:59 PM
in the same way that it happened to electronics, they seem to be getting rid of real tech's.
and making everything "plug and pray"

:)

I see more and more people saying HVAC equipment is bad and needs replacing. I think the increase is not the typical rip off people and make a sale (Which is far too common) but more because they just can't diagnose a problem.

As for this, I browsed the referenced article and it didn't say any specific gases. I looked at the EPA site and found the program mentioned and 410a and others are not mentioned as being phased out. They're just listed as acceptable replacements for R22 and other previous HCFCs.

oyarde
04-11-2015, 10:01 PM
If global warming is a scam, why do we need coolants?

Before air conditioning , as an example , Houston was not a large city .And not so long before that it was a buffalo wallow. So you may be onto something , with no air conditioning , all of the commies may have just ended up in one location , like San Diego or something. This would have been preferable to me .LOL

HVACTech
04-11-2015, 10:03 PM
You have never heard of the "Icy Ball" refrigeration system?

All it needs is a fire.

http://crosleyautoclub.com/IcyBall/HomeBuilt/HallPlans/LarryHall.GIF

http://crosleyautoclub.com/IcyBall/HomeBuilt/HomeBuilt.html

http://crosleyautoclub.com/IcyBall/crosley_icyball.html

Crosley bought the rights to the Icyball refrigeration idea, and brought it to market. Powel Crosley had a gift for recognizing great ideas and gift for marketing. Crosley built thousands of Icyballs in at least two factories, one in the United States and one in Canada. Icyballs have been spotted throughout North America and as far away as Africa. The Canadian made Icyballs carry a tag indicating that they are Deforest Crosley Icyball, those made in the USA are labeled Crosley Icyball.

The Icyball is an intermittent heat absorption type of refrigerator. A water/ammonia mixture is used as the refrigerant . Water and ammonia combine easily. So, they combine in the hot ball at room temperature.

When the hot ball is heated, for about 90 minutes, the ammonia evaporates first because it has a lower boiling point than water. The other cylinder is in water to help condense the ammonia in the cold ball. When the balls are fully charged, the cold ball is placed in the insulated box, as the ammonia evaporates to recombine with the water in the hot ball it removes heat, cooling the inside of the refrigerator for 24+ hours. A hole in the cold ball was for a special ice cube tray.

would you like me to appear impressed?
absorption refrigeration was the very first type discovered by mankind.

there are ONLY two types. absorption and vapor compression.

go ahead, fuck with me dickhead.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cQh1ccqu8M&list=PLQTMlUVIjFgmVIoS2CL122Vq3x1tub1Xl&feature=player_detailpage

oyarde
04-11-2015, 10:09 PM
If I recall , the Buick Castro had in Mexico had a window , ice cooler .

HVACTech
04-11-2015, 10:10 PM
and what is going to happen next,
is that some azzhat is going to explain to me. how. they can buy an "iceless" cooler at wallyworld.
:rolleyes:

Anti Federalist
04-11-2015, 10:10 PM
would you like me to appear impressed?

absorption refrigeration was the very first type discovered by mankind.

there are ONLY two types. absorption and vapor compression.

go ahead, fuck with me dickhead.

Sigh.

Seriously?

You posted a "WTF was that?" post in response to video of a Crosby Icy Ball.

To ask you, with no snark or smart assery, if you had never heard of that, is a perfectly normal and rational response.

I have been doing the same thing for a living for 35 years, and I don't presume to know everything about my field.

Lighten the fuck up, Francis.

HVACTech
04-11-2015, 10:26 PM
I see more and more people saying HVAC equipment is bad and needs replacing. I think the increase is not the typical rip off people and make a sale (Which is far too common) but more because they just can't diagnose a problem.

As for this, I browsed the referenced article and it didn't say any specific gases. I looked at the EPA site and found the program mentioned and 410a and others are not mentioned as being phased out. They're just listed as acceptable replacements for R22 and other previous HCFCs.

HVAC is an important subject, to and for the people.

when I chose it in aug of 08.

I chose it for the same reason HB did. go ahead. just ask him why he chose. "heavenlyboy"

:D

HVACTech
04-11-2015, 10:37 PM
Sigh.

Seriously?

You posted a "WTF was that?" post in response to video of a Crosby Icy Ball.

To ask you, with no snark or smart assery, if you had never heard of that, is a perfectly normal and rational response.

I have been doing the same thing for a living for 35 years, and I don't presume to know everything about my field.

Lighten the fuck up, Francis.

the application was a cah.
with the engine off.

did I get baited?
Rand would be ashamed of me if I did....

PRB
04-12-2015, 12:42 AM
dear PRB.
sir. I am having a REAL hard time understanding something..
perhaps YOU can explain it to me sir.

what does "cold" mean?

is there a metric that I can use to understand this word?

:confused:

after nearly 30 years in the HVAC business. why don't YOU explain it to me. :)

Cold and hot are relative, the best metric is a temperature thermometer. 100C isn't always hot, and 0C isn't always cold, but 100C is always hotter than 0C.

Anti Federalist
04-12-2015, 12:49 AM
the application was a cah.
with the engine off.

did I get baited?
Rand would be ashamed of me if I did....

Go home, you're drunk.

NorthCarolinaLiberty
04-12-2015, 03:45 AM
not backed by scientific consensus.

A lot of things backed by scientific consensus have fallen by the wayside.

Schifference
04-12-2015, 05:31 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnYF0_Tn8yg&spfreload=10
Pretty nice refrigerator for its time. Nice features.

Stratovarious
04-12-2015, 07:21 AM
not backed by scientific consensus.

There was no hockey puck ?

Seriously, do you have documentation that this documentary was pulled out of the air ?

Did this not scare the #### out of the population ?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Do 90% of the Global Warming Congregation understand how to put scientific studies together ?

Do 90% of the Global Warming Congregation understand how data is cherry picked and scewed ?

Do 90% of the Global Warming Congregation go along with the 'scientific community' because they sound Green and Good ?


You're a good freedom fighter PRB, but this GW Agenda is not part of freedom, these idiots are even trying to convince
you and me that Carbon Dioxide is a Pollutant, while it is absolutely the second best thing that every happened to earth.

, ,

Stratovarious
04-12-2015, 07:35 AM
This new Refrigerant SCAM reminds me how ###K### corrupt the EPA and our NEW WORLD ORDER government is.

The EPA PROMOTES AND DEMANDS all Americans use TOXIC PRODUCTS,
the EPA for Christ's sake, how more insane can they get.

An incandescent light bulb is perfect for some locations, puts out no appreciable EMF,
is non toxic (you could almost eat one),they use more power, but for the most part they
are great in locations where they are turned on when needed and off when not.

The new 'bulbs' are TOXIC the EPA promotes TOXIC items that qualify all citizens
as potential FEDERAL CRIMINALS, that can be put in FEDERAL PRISONS for
not properly handling use and disposal of.

What they have done is not wildly different than the IRS offering cash for guns,
all federal agencies work together to tighten the noose around all of our necks.

We need change, and I don't mean Obama style.

, ,

alucard13mm
04-12-2015, 07:40 AM
There are a lot of gases that is more potent than co2 as a greenhouse gas. Methane and water vapor is 1000x more potent than co2...

I think we need to ban water from vaporizing and insert butt plugs into cows.

Stratovarious
04-12-2015, 07:43 AM
and what is going to happen next,
is that some azzhat is going to explain to me. how. they can buy an "iceless" cooler at wallyworld.
:rolleyes:


Sigh.

Seriously?

You posted a "WTF was that?" post in response to video of a Crosby Icy Ball.

To ask you, with no snark or smart assery, if you had never heard of that, is a perfectly normal and rational response.

I have been doing the same thing for a living for 35 years, and I don't presume to know everything about my field.

Lighten the fuck up, Francis.

Wow, what happened here, I thought you guys were doing great, I learned something I didn't know about and it was intereseting...

Oh, well....


But you can see how the refrigerant system was dangerous to federal agencies, there's no use of objectional chemicals, how can
they justify taxation, new laws, and epa inspectors, when you can't force harmful or questional compounds into public use?

, ,

PRB
04-12-2015, 09:34 AM
There was no hockey puck ?

Seriously, do you have documentation that this documentary was pulled out of the air ?


Can I prove that the claim an ice age is coming in 1970 wasn't backed by scientific consensus? Yes.
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2013/06/04/the-1970s-ice-age-myth-and-time-magazine-covers-by-david-kirtley/

Pulled out of thin air? that's a subjective judgment of how unsupported it is.




Did this not scare the #### out of the population ?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


I don't care if it did, it wasn't supported by science.



Do 90% of the Global Warming Congregation understand how to put scientific studies together ?


Do they want to know or care?



Do 90% of the Global Warming Congregation understand how data is cherry picked and scewed ?


Not 90%. But 99% of deniers don't know how data is cherry picked, this is why every year they cry "cooling" and can't let go of climategate. and think that "climate change" is the Orwellian phrase change to accommodate cooling.



Do 90% of the Global Warming Congregation go along with the 'scientific community' because they sound Green and Good ?


Unintentionally, but likely.



You're a good freedom fighter PRB, but this GW Agenda is not part of freedom


Really? Do you know how to separate scientific facts from politics? Can I acknowledge global warming without advocating policy change?



, these idiots are even trying to convince
you and me that Carbon Dioxide is a Pollutant, while it is absolutely the second best thing that every happened to earth.
, ,

CO2 is not a pollutant per se, but it's almost always outputted alongside with pollutants and byproducts.

Stratovarious
04-12-2015, 09:38 AM
Can I prove that the claim an ice age is coming in 1970 wasn't backed by scientific consensus? Yes.
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2013/06/04/the-1970s-ice-age-myth-and-time-magazine-covers-by-david-kirtley/

Pulled out of thin air? that's a subjective judgment of how unsupported it is.




I don't care if it did, it wasn't supported by science.



Do they want to know or care?



Not 90%. But 99% of deniers don't know how data is cherry picked, this is why every year they cry "cooling" and can't let go of climategate. and think that "climate change" is the Orwellian phrase change to accommodate cooling.



Unintentionally, but likely.



Really? Do you know how to separate scientific facts from politics? Can I acknowledge global warming without advocating policy change?



CO2 is not a pollutant per se, but it's almost always outputted alongside with pollutants and byproducts.

The questions was; Can you show me that the Documentary I posted was not based on Science ?

, ,

PRB
04-12-2015, 09:41 AM
The questions was; Can you show me that the Documentary I posted was not based on Science ?

, ,

Yes.
https://www.skepticalscience.com/global-cooling-intermediate.htm

And you? Are you saying it WAS based on science and you still believe it?

Stratovarious
04-12-2015, 09:51 AM
I just sent a check to The New World Order Global Cooling Corporation ATTN: Chicken Little, and dated it 1977 so they'd know waht to use it for.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kGB5MMIAVA

, ,


not backed by scientific consensus.

My Question was; Can you show that this documentary was not backed by science ?

The link you have posted 3 or 4 times does not.

, ,

PRB
04-12-2015, 10:05 AM
My Question was; Can you show that this documentary was not backed by science ?

The link you have posted 3 or 4 times does not.

, ,

How do I prove a negative to you? I can tell you what scientists DID say and that the above claims were NOT supported by either consensus or full consideration of available evidence.

If the link is not enough for you, can you tell me what would be? Now for my question : are you saying it is? Or more importantly, do you accept the claim? Yes or No. If not, why do you care at all?

Stratovarious
04-12-2015, 01:03 PM
How do I prove a negative to you? I can tell you what scientists DID say and that the above claims were NOT supported by either consensus or full consideration of available evidence.

If the link is not enough for you, can you tell me what would be? Now for my question : are you saying it is? Or more importantly, do you accept the claim? Yes or No. If not, why do you care at all?

I don't know, you made the claim, I was just asking if you could substantiate it.

No big , all you had to do is say; no , then continue with your other claims.

We'll have to dig up a GW thread from teh past and carry on if you want, but I've gotta stop posting in this thread, I
don't want to derail it any further than I already have from the OP...


, ,

Anti Federalist
04-12-2015, 02:20 PM
Wow, what happened here, I thought you guys were doing great, I learned something I didn't know about and it was intereseting...

Fuck if I know... :confused:

I thought the same thing, until HVACTech started crying like he had sand in his vagina or some fucking thing.

tod evans
04-12-2015, 02:25 PM
Fuck if I know... :confused:

I thought the same thing, until HVACTech started crying like he had sand in his vagina or some fucking thing.

St.Pete Fla. 1981, I can personally attest that sand abrades a penis much more severely than a vagina........:cool:

Stratovarious
04-12-2015, 03:39 PM
Fuck if I know... :confused:

I thought the same thing, until HVACTech started crying like he had sand in his vagina or some fucking thing.

Yep, a word , an interpretation , it's easy on the iNterweb for things to go south and never know why...

I spent 25 years pulling wires and bending pipe, you'd think I could have a decent conversation on
an electrical site?....lol....someone always gets something wrong or sideways, before you know it wrenches start flying and choking up the bandwidth.

, ,

Anti Federalist
04-12-2015, 06:08 PM
Yep, a word , an interpretation , it's easy on the iNterweb for things to go south and never know why...

I spent 25 years pulling wires and bending pipe, you'd think I could have a decent conversation on
an electrical site?....lol....someone always gets something wrong or sideways, before you know it wrenches start flying and choking up the bandwidth.

, ,

I'm glad my only foil is Danke, when it comes to my work.

Anti Federalist
04-12-2015, 06:11 PM
St.Pete Fla. 1981, I can personally attest that sand abrades a penis much more severely than a vagina........:cool:

Yeouch...

HVACTech
04-12-2015, 06:52 PM
Sigh.

Seriously?

You posted a "WTF was that?" post in response to video of a Crosby Icy Ball.

To ask you, with no snark or smart assery, if you had never heard of that, is a perfectly normal and rational response.

I have been doing the same thing for a living for 35 years, and I don't presume to know everything about my field.

Lighten the fuck up, Francis.

yeah, I am going to have to eat that one...
I was totally out of line and it was also bad form.
I apologize.

HVACTech
04-12-2015, 06:54 PM
Cold and hot are relative, the best metric is a temperature thermometer. 100C isn't always hot, and 0C isn't always cold, but 100C is always hotter than 0C.

wrong. cold does not exist.
1st LAW of thermodynamics.

Anti Federalist
04-12-2015, 07:00 PM
yeah, I am going to have to eat that one...
I was totally out of line and it was also bad form.
I apologize.

No worries brother.

Moving forward...

HVACTech
04-12-2015, 07:01 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnYF0_Tn8yg&spfreload=10
Pretty nice refrigerator for its time. Nice features.

we still have them, they are the norm for campers.
absorption systems are still in use in very large industrial applications also.
back in the 90's they were even being used for A/C systems.

4036

HVACTech
04-12-2015, 07:22 PM
we still have them, they are the norm for campers.
absorption systems are still in use in very large industrial applications also.
back in the 90's they were even being used for A/C systems.

4036

these systems functioned like a chiller does. meaning,
the ammonia system was all outside. water was circulated to provide the cooling.
like a boiler system works, except for cooling.

"cold" does not exist. meaning.
if I have a walk in freezer, and it is sitting at zero degrees Fahrenheit, this is too warm.
when I turn on the cooling, it HAS to be about 15 to 20 degrees COLDER than the zero degrees,
and the warm zero will flow to the colder -15.
heat only flows in one direction.

:)

PRB
04-12-2015, 10:09 PM
wrong. cold does not exist.
1st LAW of thermodynamics.

Cold is an adjective. Cold is a state for which temperature is lower than another temperature.

First law of thermodynamics states that energy is conserved within the universe, that doesn't mean it can't increase or decrease locally.

PRB
04-12-2015, 10:12 PM
I don't know, you made the claim, I was just asking if you could substantiate it.


You made the claim first. So my question, is it or is it not backed by science? I have shown you it doesn't. You denied it and fail to hold yourself to the same standards.

Tell me why I'm wrong, why you believe the claim in the video, or why the video is backed by science. I dare you.



No big , all you had to do is say; no , then continue with your other claims.


Why would I do that to somebody who doesn't know what he's talking about?



We'll have to dig up a GW thread from teh past and carry on if you want, but I've gotta stop posting in this thread, I
don't want to derail it any further than I already have from the OP...
, ,

Always excuses when you can't substantiate your claims. Surprise.

oyarde
04-12-2015, 10:36 PM
How does the rest of the world survive without the EPA?

PRB
04-12-2015, 10:59 PM
How does the rest of the world survive without the EPA?

Which government agency claims it's helping anybody survive?

NorthCarolinaLiberty
04-13-2015, 08:12 AM
Which government agency claims it's helping anybody survive?

Democrats like you. The ones who work in government.

HVACTech
04-13-2015, 08:12 PM
Cold is an adjective. Cold is a state for which temperature is lower than another temperature.

First law of thermodynamics states that energy is conserved within the universe, that doesn't mean it can't increase or decrease locally.


Cold is an adjective. Cold is a state for which temperature is lower than another temperature.

First law of thermodynamics states that energy is conserved within the universe, that doesn't mean it can't increase or decrease locally.


Cold is an adjective. Cold is a state for which temperature is lower than another temperature.
:rolleyes:


First law of thermodynamics states that energy is conserved within the universe, that doesn't mean it can't increase or decrease locally.

you seem to be VERY obtuse, or intentionally trying to obfuscate the subject.
yes! "cold" is a relative term! score one for PRB! did anyone NOT know that?... (PRB had to look it up I suppose)

I am trying to help people unravel complicated stuff. (unlike you)

"heat" can be measured all the way down to.. oh, say -459 degrees Fahrenheit.
what this means, is that anything ABOVE that temperature is, drum roll please, warm!

get this dudette. I am a cooling specialist in the swampy south.. and you know what? all I do is to move heat around! no shit, Sherlock!
I do NOT create cold! no Sir! I remove heat!

crap like this is why I went off the other night, tell me sir, what is the difference between Crosby's "icy balls"
and this. anything?

4038

if, you want to check my math, have at it. dipstick.
ANY idea what this is?
and WHY it is absolute? :confused:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_zero

NorthCarolinaLiberty
04-13-2015, 08:50 PM
score one for PRB! did anyone NOT know that?... (PRB had to look it up I suppose)

I am trying to help people unravel complicated stuff. (unlike you)



I don't think he is a tech. PRB once said he was in prelaw school. I asked him the other day if this is still the case, but he never got back with me.

Stratovarious
04-13-2015, 09:02 PM
Cold is an adjective. Cold is a state for which temperature is lower than another temperature.
...
No Dakota Mar 2014 -20° F ± , are you suggesting that it was not a cold day ? :cornfussed:


, ,

HVACTech
04-13-2015, 09:14 PM
No Dakota Mar 2014 -20° F ± , are you suggesting that it was not a cold day ? :cornfussed:


, ,

-20 is not very "cold" or even cold enough. :D
good heat transfer requires a 15 to 20 degree differential.
if you "want" -15... my machine will need to operate at -30 to -35.
the oil becomes a problem at these temps.
the compressors also tend to overheat.

only ice cream needs, below -10.
:)

mad cow
04-13-2015, 09:22 PM
only ice cream needs, below -10.


Ice cream and seafood.That is where I had my alarms set on the fishing boat.

Stratovarious
04-13-2015, 09:27 PM
-20 is not very "cold" or even cold enough. :D
good heat transfer requires a 15 to 20 degree differential.
if you "want" -15... my machine will need to operate at -30 to -35.
the oil becomes a problem at these temps.
the compressors also tend to overheat.

only ice cream needs, below -10.
:)

I'm planning on moving my N Dakota operations to space so when I get back from -454f (used to be a book 454f...book burning ??)
I'll have a nice warm spring day @ -30f....I'll invite prb and who ever else likes warm spring days...:D
:D
Not cold mind you ....lol

, ,

HVACTech
04-13-2015, 09:38 PM
Ice cream and seafood.That is where I had my alarms set on the fishing boat.

seafood needs to be kept below freezing at all times.
it is sorta like beer in that respect..

(something tells me I should go to bed now)
:toady:

PRB
04-13-2015, 10:58 PM
and WHY it is absolute? :confused:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_zero

Because as far as we know nothing can be lower than it. (Tautology)

If there is a point which is "absolute zero" and anything above it is "warm", then cold DOES exist.

PRB
04-13-2015, 11:00 PM
I don't think he is a tech. PRB once said he was in prelaw school. I asked him the other day if this is still the case, but he never got back with me.

You're still a child molester.

NorthCarolinaLiberty
04-14-2015, 12:36 AM
You're still a child molester.

Neg rep. Nice try, Democrat. Here is some of the evidence of your misdeeds.

If any new members want to know more, then just let me know. There is mounds of evidence:



I am here to belittle people.


I may be a troll, but I'm not flooding.


I can tell PRB is a troll juat by how vitriolic he is. How he gets pleasure from attacking someone...On top of everything PRB simply lies.




I was going to say eduardo or someone in the religion forum has made dumber troll threads, but I reckon you're right now that I think about it.

This wins for dumbest troll thread ever.

It's a silly brand of trolling.

Worst troll attempt in a while.. Merry Christmas op.

(Tool)

I guess it's too bad you weren't around to troll the authors of that document with that question. The mirth you would have created.....

Troll thread??


Trolls gotta troll.

PRB's trolling...




No Internet trolls back then...






My you are a soulless troll, aren't you?

navy-vet
04-14-2015, 03:41 PM
Neg rep. Nice try, Democrat. Here is some of the evidence of your misdeeds.

If any new members want to know more, then just let me know. There is mounds of evidence:
:eek:

HVACTech
04-14-2015, 06:28 PM
If there is a point which is "absolute zero" and anything above it is "warm", then cold DOES exist.

yeah, that is what I was thinking.. :rolleyes:

NorthCarolinaLiberty
04-14-2015, 07:40 PM
:eek:

If you think that's funny about PRB, then check the quotes below. Here's our fake libertarian trying to tell me he owns 4+ guns.



Glocks is one of the more popular brands (along with S&W), so any non-enthusiast is more likely to know it first.

Situations differ, I generally am prepared to use handgun over shotgun as I'm prepared for the easiest and shortest response time. It's more about the weapon than the bullets when it comes to which you can grab. 10mm/.40" isn't that much different than 9mm if they're both handgun bullets. But no, I wouldn't say any handgun bullets beat any buckshots, they're different purposes, distances and damages.



I didn't want to say Glocks to begin with, so when I realized I did, I stopped, that's as much as I'm willing to tell.

PRB
04-14-2015, 10:50 PM
If you think that's funny about PRB, then check the quotes below. Here's our fake libertarian trying to tell me he owns 4+ guns.

You keep calling me a fake and this is the best "evidence" you can come up with?

acptulsa
04-15-2015, 07:29 AM
You keep calling me a fake and this is the best "evidence" you can come up with?

No, he's calling you a fake because you keep trying to derail intelligent and meaningful discussions like who is harmed by our current refrigerants, and who benefits by current refrigerants being outlawed on a regular basis, by trying and failing to call into question the widely accepted postulate of physics that says heat is something--heat is energy--while cold is nothing--it is a description of a lack of energy. This isn't intelligent conversation, it's distraction and obfuscation.

You cannot 'create cold', you can only remove heat. Those very laws of thermodynamics say so. Every physicist will tell you so. Arguing about it is stupid. Cold is just like a vacuum--it isn't something, it is a descriptor indicating a lack of something, and a relative term. 'Cold' isn't the opposite of 'heat', it's the opposite of 'hot'. You said it yourself--cold is an adjective, like hot, while heat is a noun. Cold is a word used to describe something that lacks heat, and hot is a word used to describe something that does not lack heat. Heat is energy, and it can be moved around and can be transformed into other types of energy, like momentum (if you don't believe me, try driving a car without any heat being generated--and don't lie and tell me you drive an electric car without telling me which steam generator allegedly generates the electricity you charge your alleged electric car with).

Being stupid to derail an intelligent conversation about refrigeration and refrigerants is counterproductive and obnoxious. Unless, of course, the company which invented that refrigerant which is now the only legal refrigerant is paying you. In which case, it's still stupid, but profitable.

Root
04-15-2015, 07:40 AM
"If you like your refrigerant, you can keep (using) your refrigerant"

:rolleyes:

NorthCarolinaLiberty
04-15-2015, 08:09 AM
You keep calling me a fake and this is the best "evidence" you can come up with?


I'm not "coming up" with anything. You have become a parody of yourself on this forum. Many times over.

PRB
04-15-2015, 12:17 PM
You cannot 'create cold', you can only remove heat.

That means it doesn't exist?

acptulsa
04-15-2015, 12:19 PM
That means it doesn't exist?

What doesn't exist? Cold air? Cold weather? Cold ice cream? Cold comfort?

What part of what you yourself said--that 'cold' is an adjective--are you pretending to be too stupid to understand?

PRB
04-15-2015, 02:17 PM
What doesn't exist? Cold air? Cold weather? Cold ice cream? Cold comfort?

What part of what you yourself said--that 'cold' is an adjective--are you pretending to be too stupid to understand?

he said it, not me.


wrong. cold does not exist.
1st LAW of thermodynamics.

I did say cold is an adjective, and it's relative, and I still stand by it until corrected.

HVACTech
04-15-2015, 07:34 PM
he said it, not me.



I did say cold is an adjective, and it's relative, and I still stand by it until corrected.

how did you survive until adulthood?

YOU HAVE BEEN CORRECTED!

"cold" starts at absolute zero. and until this can be maintained. it does NOT exist!
how can you be SO dense?

-Rep for trolling.

there is a "Theory of Relativity" there is also one for "Quantum physics"

the LAWS of thermodynamics are called that for a VERY good reason. not only have they NEVER been disproved.
they have been proven correct SO many times that..
they keep getting things added to them.

2young2vote
04-15-2015, 09:44 PM
We have a dozen+ freezers at our shop and two flash freezers that require almost weekly repairs/fill-ups, so our refrigeration guy is coming in almost weekly fixing one freezer or another, or filling gas. I've heard him complain several times about the price of gas and how he hates carrying around thousands of dollars worth of gas in his van. He's been doing this for 40 years and he blames government regulations on the increase in prices.

The only freezers he never works on are our chest freezers and a 50+ year old General Motors belt driven system that cools our walk in freezer. I think that one will last forever.

PRB
04-16-2015, 12:11 AM
how did you survive until adulthood?

YOU HAVE BEEN CORRECTED!

"cold" starts at absolute zero. and until this can be maintained. it does NOT exist!
how can you be SO dense?

-Rep for trolling.

there is a "Theory of Relativity" there is also one for "Quantum physics"

the LAWS of thermodynamics are called that for a VERY good reason. not only have they NEVER been disproved.
they have been proven correct SO many times that..
they keep getting things added to them.

there you have it, cold doesn't exist. Just so if somebody wants to laugh at it, they direct it at the person who actually said it.

NorthCarolinaLiberty
04-16-2015, 11:46 AM
there you have it, cold doesn't exist. Just so if somebody wants to laugh at it, they direct it at the person who actually said it.


He's talking about it in a technical way. You're discussing it in an everyday, consumer way.

acptulsa
04-16-2015, 05:37 PM
He's talking about it in a technical way. You're discussing it in an everyday, consumer way.

Even everyday consumers know that cold, like hot, is a description, not a thing. Cold air exists. Cold does not.

But when you're paid to try to convince the world we're all a bunch of idiots, you're liable to say anything.

HVACTech
04-16-2015, 06:03 PM
He's talking about it in a technical way. You're discussing it in an everyday, consumer way.

no, what he is doing in dumbing down the site.
I might not know everything, but I do know about Refrigeration and refrigerants. I had hoped to provide an intelligent conversation.
to help folks understand everyday systems and those they might encounter (or be responsible for) at work.

this would be inline with the mission statement.
to foster individual excellence.

HVACTech
04-16-2015, 06:40 PM
We have a dozen+ freezers at our shop and two flash freezers that require almost weekly repairs/fill-ups, so our refrigeration guy is coming in almost weekly fixing one freezer or another, or filling gas. I've heard him complain several times about the price of gas and how he hates carrying around thousands of dollars worth of gas in his van. He's been doing this for 40 years and he blames government regulations on the increase in prices.

The only freezers he never works on are our chest freezers and a 50+ year old General Motors belt driven system that cools our walk in freezer. I think that one will last forever.

FWIW. these systems do not consume the "gas" commonly known as "Freon" they simply circulate it. like you car does with antifreeze.

Vapor Compression Refrigeration, is what allows us all to live the way that we do today. (A/C is high temp Refrigeration)

it was discovered in the 1930's but mother nature had been using the principle on which it is based long before that. :)

understanding the basics of how these machines operate, will provide keys of understanding to the physical world around you.
a primer.
#1 there is no such thing as cold, only heat.
#2 heat only flows in one direction, from higher to lower.
#3 there are 2 types of heat. sensible and latent.
#4 there are 3 methods of heat transfer, conduction, convection and radiant.

end of rant.
:)

Anti Federalist
06-11-2015, 01:29 AM
///

Anti Federalist
03-26-2016, 10:17 PM
would you like me to appear impressed?
absorption refrigeration was the very first type discovered by mankind.

there are ONLY two types. absorption and vapor compression.

go ahead, fuck with me dickhead.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cQh1ccqu8M&list=PLQTMlUVIjFgmVIoS2CL122Vq3x1tub1Xl&feature=player_detailpage

hmmph

HVACTech
03-26-2016, 10:33 PM
hmmph

there are other HVACTechs here AF, :)

HVACTech
03-26-2016, 10:46 PM
If cars had these they'd stay icy cold in the summer time with engine off.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AlJzefbn3EU

ya know.. AF actually believed that. :p

you are SO clever! kudos!

HVACTech
03-26-2016, 11:05 PM
This reeks of a conspiracy to me....:mad:




Feeling the chill: EPA ban on common coolants has lawmakers, industry worried

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/04/11/feeling-chill-epa-ban-on-common-coolants-has-lawmakers-industry-worried/?intcmp=latestnews

Lawmakers and industry groups are worried fast-approaching Environmental Protection Agency rules banning certain gases used in commercial refrigeration and air conditioners could have a chilling effect on business.

The EPA is looking to impose the new rules starting in January 2016, restricting refrigeration coolants commonly found in grocery stores, restaurants and cars -- not only in fridges and air conditioners but also vending machines and insulation.

Critics, though, complain the proposed rules would force commercial refrigeration to shift from what's known as hydrofluorocarbons (HFCs) to alternative coolants -- only a few years after they were told HFCs were the best alternative to ozone-depleting gasses.

And they’re worried about the tight timetable, calling the January 2016 deadline “arbitrary and capricious.”

“That [deadline] puts everyone in a difficult position, with manufacturers not knowing how to spend their resources and dollars,” said Stephen Yurek, president and CEO of the Air Conditioning, Heating and Refrigeration Institute.

“We just can’t go to our members and tell them not to worry about it.”

Rep. Kyle Whitfield, R-Ky., chairman of the House energy and power subcommittee, is also raising concerns, sending a letter to the EPA last week asking for more information about the rules.

“I understand the consensus among the affected companies in the refrigeration, motor vehicle and insulation industries is that the proposed compliance requirement would cause considerable economic harm and job losses, and may increase rather than reduce safety for the American public,” he wrote.

Part of the problem is industry voices say they can’t keep up with federal rules that dictate what is and what isn’t killing the ozone layer and spewing dangerous greenhouse gasses into the air.

More than 20 years ago, the EPA, under the guidance of the Montreal Protocol, decided to end the use of hydrochlorofluorocarbons (HCFCs) because they were accelerating ozone depletion. At the time, HFCs were considered a better alternative because they are safer for the ozone.

But now, HFCs are said to be contributing to greenhouse gas emissions 1,430 times more damaging to the climate than carbon dioxide, as the demand for utilities using HFCs in developing nations rises.

“If HFC growth continues on the current trajectory, the increase in HFC emissions is projected to offset much of the climate benefit achieved by phasing out ozone-depleting substances,” the EPA has stated. It estimates commercial refrigeration accounts for approximately 32 percent of global HFC use.

The EPA issued the new proposed rules (as an amendment to the Clean Air Act) in July 2014, and opened them up to public comment. The agency has not said when the final rules will be announced. The EPA did not return a request for comment.

Whitfield, in his letter, said not only are there concerns with the phase-out but there were concerns with the potential alternatives – one being a specific, flammable alternative gas. Aside from the refrigerants, all foam-blowing sprays used for insulation must be HFC-free by January 2017, and motor vehicle air conditioners by 2021.

Any new construction after the deadline will have to incorporate machines using HFC alternatives. While retail owners will be allowed to use their existing machines with HFCs after January 2016, they won’t be able to buy replacement parts for the old technology, and will eventually have to transition all equipment to adjust to the new coolants.

Whitfield contends it’s a costly process and “American consumers will bear much of the cost of the proposed rule” through higher prices and less energy efficiency. He doesn’t even know if the new rules would be “legal” under the Clean Air Act.

Avipsa Mahapatra, international climate policy analyst at Environmental Investigation Agency, does not agree with Whitfield’s assessment. She said good alternatives are out there, and supermarkets are already taking advantage of them in Europe and Canada and in scattered stores in the U.S.

“It makes good business sense,” she said, insisting that the replacement gases are more efficient, and safer, than the HFCs. She pointed out that globally, HFCs are being phased out, and said the U.S. is in a great position to lead the shift.

Already, major chemical and technology companies like DuPont, Coca-Cola and Honeywell have signed on, with millions of dollars, to make the transition work.

“The [current] technology is becoming obsolete,” Mahapatra told FoxNews.com. “I do not believe this new rule would kill business. If anything it is an amazing opportunity for American businesses to be leaders. In five, 10 or 15 years, when the rest of the world is looking to buy new technology, they will look toward to the U.S. to buy it.”

Yurek said, for his association, it’s not necessarily the rules but the time frame that has them scratching their heads.

“We understand we have to move to refrigeration [coolants] that are available, and that have low global warming potential,” he said. The institute has also pledged $5 million for research and development to find such alternatives. “We want to limit the environmental impact.”

However, “there is all sorts of pressure” to move now, and without widely approved alternatives.

“Everybody is researching and trying to find the alternative that provides the best efficiency and performance – and we don’t have that yet,” Yurek said. “[The deadline is] coming fast. We want to comply but it is so disconcerting.”

this is, so, SO terrible! whatsoever shall we do?

pay the HVACTech more? I am OK with that. :p