Pro Religious Freedom Act Indiana pizzeria that closed after threats gets $130K in support

[enhanced_deficit]

Update: WaPo numbers are old, their supporters have raised over $750K in one day so far.

http://www.gofundme.com/MemoriesPizza


Support Memories Pizza
WALKERTON, IN
$767,230 of $200k
Raised by 26,360 people in 1 day



Indiana pizza shop won’t cater gay wedding, gets over $50K from supporters

By Justin Wm. Moyer April 2 at 5:47 A
The pizza shop in Walkerton, Ind. — a small town of about 2,200 people about 20 miles south of South Bend — doesn’t look like the epicenter of a national controversy. The black-and-white linoleum and red booths are unassuming — the decor of any take-out joint anywhere in America. A Triple XXX Root Beer will set you back $2. It even has a piano — and a prayer suggestion box.
“Every day before we open the store, we gather and pray together,” reads a sign posted in the store, which also boasts numerous crosses, including one that says “Glorify the Lord.” “If there is something you would like us to pray for, just write it down and drop it in the box.”
But Memories Pizza — “a Walkerton mainstay,” according to local media, for more than a decade — is feeling the heat of a great debate about religious freedom and gay rights. Memories has been billed by a local ABC affiliate as the “first business to publicly deny same-sex service” after Gov. Mike Pence (R) signed the state’s Religious Freedom Restoration Act (RFRA) into law. Many feel the law, which advocates say is intended to protect religious freedom, will result in discrimination against homosexuals.
To be clear: No one has reported that Memories has actually denied service to anyone. The owners even told ABC 57 they wouldn’t refuse service to a gay man or woman — they would only refuse to cater a gay wedding. But TMZ reported that Memories temporarily closed its doors after being met with threatening telephone calls and criticism on social media.

Memories also had its share of defenders.
“Cue the Gay Mafia,” another commenter wrote on Yelp. “The fact is, this business has the RIGHT not to provide any services to a ‘wedding’ event for gay or lesbian couples, something that goes against their religious beliefs.”
The dust-up has proved a windfall of sorts for Memories. A GoFundMe page (http://www.gofundme.com/MemoriesPizza) called “Support Memories Pizza” set up to raise $35,000 for the embattled restaurant got almost $50,000 from more than 1,300 donors in 11 hours — and donations continue to come in.

“We’re not discriminating against anyone,” O’Connor said. “That’s just our belief, and anyone has the right to believe in anything.” She added that she was a supporter of the RFRA.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/04/02/indianas-memories-pizza-wouldnt-cater-gay-wedding-gets-40k-in-crowdfunding/






Related

Indiana pizzeria closes after threats
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/237686-indiana-pizzeria-closes-after-threats


The Dana Show
23 hrs ·
Taking a page from ISIS, a ‪#‎BoycottIndiana‬ high school coach wants to burn down ‪#‎MemoriesPizza‬ https://t.co/3bKr32po2n

https://fbexternal-a.akamaihd.net/safe_image.php?d=AQBp5pHKzw33pDX5&w=470&h=246&url=https%3A%2F%2Fpbs.twimg.com%2Fmedia%2FCBhbNE_U 8AAS0HA.jpg%3Alarge&cfs=1&upscale=1



William J. Miller on Twitter
“Since a Leftist said this, does this qualify as a Mostly Peaceful™ arson threat? ->”
twitter.com|By William J. Miller




Cashier Told Obama A Gay Sex Joke And Obama replied 'Bump me' (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?455724-Cashier-Told-Obama-A-Gay-Sex-Joke-And-Obama-replied-Bump-me&)
The Huffington Post | By Paige Lavender
07/14/2014 10:55 am EDT
During a recent visit to Texas, President Barack Obama made a stop at Franklin Barbecue in Austin, where he ordered a ton of meat and was seen giving a cashier one of his famous fist bumps.
That cashier -- Daniel Rugg Webb, a comedian and part-time employee at Franklin Barbecue -- told the Austin Chronicle the fist bump was a reaction to a gay sex joke:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BsNJFiqCAAEB7wm.jpg
(https://twitter.com/dougmillsnyt/status/487313545743179777/photo/1)
(https://twitter.com/dougmillsnyt/status/487313545743179777/photo/1)
As the president approached, Webb threw his hand down and slapped the counter dramatically. "Equal rights for gay people!"
"Are you gay?" the president asked.
"Only when I have sex," [Webb said.]
"That's when he laughed and said, 'Bump me,'" Webb says.
Webb said "it was just a lucky day to be the register girl" when the president, who reportedly ordered more than $300 worth of food for both his crew and the people he cut in line, visited the restaurant.

[Danke]

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/apr/2/jess-dooley-high-school-golf-coach-suspended-for-t/

[enhanced_deficit]

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/apr/2/jess-dooley-high-school-golf-coach-suspended-for-t/

Such a sensible mind coaching the youth in this school.



The dust-up has proved a windfall of sorts for Memories. A GoFundMe page (http://www.gofundme.com/MemoriesPizza) called “Support Memories Pizza” set up to raise $35,000 for the embattled restaurant got almost $50,000 from more than 1,300 donors in 11 hours — and donations continue to come in.

In other news, total went up by $35K in just last 30-40 minutes.


Support Memories Pizza
WALKERTON, IN
$165,409 of $175k
Raised by 5,841 people in 19 hours

[AuH20]

Looks like their site got hacked.

http://i.imgur.com/DFsmy7R.png

[ThePaleoLibertarian]

The leftist mind is by nature thuggish, brutal and intolerant of any ideological opposition. The right is an appeal to order, discourse, and the civilizing forces of humankind, everything the left hates.

[jmdrake]

Should a gay owned pizza shop be forced to cater an event run by Focus on the Family?

[AuH20]

Should a gay owned pizza shop be forced to cater an event run by Focus on the Family?

You know the answer.

[ThePaleoLibertarian]

Should a gay owned pizza shop be forced to cater an event run by Focus on the Family?
A conservative group should go to SF and try to arrange something like that. The spectacle alone would be worth it.

[enhanced_deficit]

The leftist mind is by nature thuggish, brutal and intolerant of any ideological opposition. The right is an appeal to order, discourse, and the civilizing forces of humankind, everything the left hates.

Let's not get carried away though. Without the Iraqi Freedom, a semi-religious initiative championed disproportionally by the Christian Right, there would have been no Barack Hussein Obama/"gay marriage" in 2008-16 and not so many man-man love photos thrusted in the faces of Christians in America. It's a chain reaction of sort.

[Mr.NoSmile]

Looks like their site got hacked.

http://i.imgur.com/DFsmy7R.png

No. Someone bought a domain name and just used that pizza site's name.

[CaptUSA]

How many gay weddings were going to go to a pizza shop for catering?

[phill4paul]

$170k. Lol. Best year ever!

I really need to find a cause celebre.

[ThePaleoLibertarian]

Let's not get carried away though. Without the Iraqi Freedom, a semi-religious initiative championed disproportionally by the Christian Right, there would have been no Barack Hussein Obama/"gay marriage" in 2008-16 and not so many man-man love photos thrusted in the faces of Christians in America. It's a chain reaction of sort.
I think the religious right is mislabeled, largely. I mean they are to the right of Democrats, but they aren't really right wing, not in the way I mean it at least. The right wing as I identify with it is traditionalist, hierarchical, anti-egalitarian, aristocratic and nationalistic. The religious right could only be described as perhaps traditionalists and nationalistic in a civic sense, but not much else.

[AuH20]

The owner should have embraced the suck and ran with a whole new menu of gay oriented items. Butt Secks Parmigiana. Throw in some Sodomy Chicken Rolls. 'Toss a Salad' Veggie Pie. Pillow Biter Pasta Primavera. You never run from a fight when they come after you. Does the gay mafia really think that they hold a monopoly on sarcasm? The entire ghey lifestyle is a treasure trove of comedic material. I would be the richest and most hated man in America if I was given this exposure.

[enhanced_deficit]

I think the religious right is mislabeled, largely. I mean they are to the right of Democrats, but they aren't really right wing, not in the way I mean it at least. The right wing as I identify with it is traditionalist, hierarchical, anti-egalitarian, aristocratic and nationalistic. The religious right could only be described as perhaps traditionalists and nationalistic in a civic sense, but not much else.

Oh ok, gotcha.


$170k. Lol. Best year ever!

I really need to find a cause celebre.

Make that $200K and change.

$205,460 of $200k
Raised by 7,225 people in 20 hours




Does the gay mafia really think that they hold a monopoly on sarcasm?

This isn't just sarcasm though.


Indiana pizzeria closes after threats
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/237686-indiana-pizzeria-closes-after-threats

[Deborah K]

How many gay weddings were going to go to a pizza shop for catering?

The owner was baited. And I don't think it was a gay group who baited her either. This is just another effort to divide people. And idiots like the coach always fall for it hook-line-and sinker.

[AuH20]

Are you more angry about Jade Helm or Memories Pizza? ROFL

[Danke]

Should a gay owned pizza shop be forced to cater an event run by Focus on the Family?

I'd be leery of what might be in the sauce.

[puppetmaster]

The owner should have embraced the suck and ran with a whole new menu of gay oriented items. Butt Secks Parmigiana. Throw in some Sodomy Chicken Rolls. 'Toss a Salad' Veggie Pie. Pillow Biter Pasta Primavera. You never run from a fight when they come after you. Does the gay mafia really think that they hold a monopoly on sarcasm? The entire ghey lifestyle is a treasure trove of comedic material. I would be the richest and most hated man in America if I was given this exposure.

true.....

[heavenlyboy34]

The leftist mind is by nature thuggish, brutal and intolerant of any ideological opposition. The right is an appeal to order, discourse, and the civilizing forces of humankind, everything the left hates.

Your Newspeak skillz are impressive.

[Voluntarist]

xxxxx

[pcosmar]

How many gay weddings were going to go to a pizza shop for catering?
How many weddings (Gay, Hetro, or Dog) have pizza catered?

I have to wonder if these good folks check the sexual background of everyone they sell to..
Do they Cater Weddings for the previously divorced?

Just what other glutinous and hedonistic events are they willing to cater?

I hate hypocrisy more that just about anything else.

[jmdrake]

You know....$150K in a few hours ain't bad. What PC group can I tick off?

[AuH20]

You know....$150K in a few hours ain't bad. What PC group can I tick off?

Gay Hispanic Fat People with Down's Syndrome. Go for the gold!

[PRB]

You know....$150K in a few hours ain't bad. What PC group can I tick off?

Do you think you'd get that if your business turned down blacks?

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Do you think you'd get that if your business turned down blacks?

JM Drake is black. Maybe your liberal intellect can school him on what should be his proper approach.

[jmdrake]

Do you think you'd get that if your business turned down blacks?

Considering that I am black that would be kind of hard to pull off. I guess I could turn down whites.

[PRB]

Considering that I am black that would be kind of hard to pull off. I guess I could turn down whites.

Turning down whites is politically correct, so it won't work.

[mrsat_98]

You know....$150K in a few hours ain't bad. What PC group can I tick off?


I find this suspicious. News media comes by and ambushes your business and the owner has wearwithall to get a go fund me page how soon or before the story hits the fan ?

[Danke]

Do you think you'd get that if your business turned down blacks?

The color of your skin is not a behavior.

[Voluntarist]

xxxxx

[Thor]

The owner was baited. And I don't think it was a gay group who baited her either. This is just another effort to divide people. And idiots like the coach always fall for it hook-line-and sinker.

Divide and Conquer.


Are you more angry about Jade Helm or Memories Pizza? ROFL

Where did that shiny bobble go?

[AuH20]

I never liked Shapiro but he does have a point.

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/04/02/fake-libertarians-run-from-religious-freedom-restoration-act/

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Turning down whites is politically correct, so it won't work.



Don't make me break my foot off in yo ass!



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAgDCMt8Q0A

[euphemia]

Please allow me to point out that ridicule on social media and threatening phone calls (which are a violation of the law) are not persecution, especially in light of the fact that the shop owners made their beliefs public. They didn't actually refuse service to anyone. They voluntarily agreed to an interview with local media and said they would not cater a gay wedding. They were willing to accept publicity for their shop, but not criticism for a lack of wisdom in what they said and how they said it. And now they have a huge windfall.

There was persecution in Kenya today. Garissa University, a Christian college, was the site of a mass murder. Those who confessed to be Christians were shot.

[enhanced_deficit]

Please allow me to point out that ridicule on social media and threatening phone calls (which are a violation of the law) are not persecution, especially in light of the fact that the shop owners made their beliefs public. They didn't actually refuse service to anyone. They voluntarily agreed to an interview with local media and said they would not cater a gay wedding. They were willing to accept publicity for their shop, but not criticism for a lack of wisdom in what they said and how they said it. And now they have a huge windfall.

I had not seen any news to that affect, I was under the impression they were not willing to accept threats that led to the pizza shop being shut down.




There was persecution in Kenya today. Garissa University, a Christian college, was the site of a mass murder. Those who confessed to be Christians were shot.

Good point. There are more details on that terror attack here (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?471630-Has-Obama-ever-condemned-any-Al-Qaeda-terrorist-attack-in-Syria&p=5828748&viewfull=1#post5828748) also if you would life to discuss it more in depth.

[euphemia]

They were interviewed by local media and were probably baited by the interviewer, but it would have been better to have said, "we have served customers in our store for over 10 years and we aren't going to be drawn into some kind of political debate on anything that does not serve our customers well."

[Deborah K]

They were interviewed by local media and were probably baited by the interviewer, but it would have been better to have said, "we have served customers in our store for over 10 years and we aren't going to be drawn into some kind of political debate on anything that does not serve our customers well."

She probably wishes she would have done that, but she didn't, and she paid for it with death threats, nasty websites, vicious comments and ultimately having to close her doors. Someone had the wherewithal to start a fundraising site for her.

I agree that much worse things are happening in Kenya and other places in the world to Christians. But religious persecution is also happening to Palestinians and many others on this planet of ours. Does that mean this pizza owner should just be kicked to the curb because her problems don't equate to the problems of others?

The divide and conquer strategy is alive and well in this country, I'm sorry to say.

[phill4paul]

She probably wishes she would have done that, but she didn't, and she paid for it with death threats, nasty websites, vicious comments and ultimately having to close her doors. Someone had the wherewithal to start a fundraising site for her.

I agree that much worse things are happening in Kenya and other places in the world to Christians. But religious persecution is also happening to Palestinians and many others on this planet of ours. Does that mean this pizza owner should just be kicked to the curb because her problems don't equate to the problems of others?

The divide and conquer strategy is alive and well in this country, I'm sorry to say.

Color me skeptic anytime something like this happens. They will be open within a month and probably $200k richer in the bargain. The divide and profit strategy is also alive and well.

Edit: Damned did I low ball it. Currently sitting at $732k. I really need to find me a cause celebre.

[Deborah K]

Color me skeptic anytime something like this happens. They will be open within a month and probably $200k richer in the bargain. The divide and profit strategy is also alive and well.

Edit: Damned did I low ball it. Currently sitting at $732k. I really need to find me a cause celebre.

It would be interesting to know who set up the fundraising site. Was it a concerned citizen, or family member? Was it her? I'm not willing to assume that anyone knew in advance that the backlash would be a million dollars in her coffers. But make no mistake - those who agree with her right to her beliefs are responding to her being baited and threatened. And more to the point, I think it's important that people like her are supported and not intimidated into boxing up their beliefs, lest we end up like the Christians in other countries. And don't think it can't happen here.

[devil21]

I find this suspicious. News media comes by and ambushes your business and the owner has wearwithall to get a go fund me page how soon or before the story hits the fan ?

It's the new get-rich-quick-scheme. This pizzeria didn't even turn anyone away. They were asked a HYPOTHETICAL question and are now raking in the dough (no pun intended) for their ANSWER alone. It's absurd.

eta: Has anyone considered this whole thing may have been a scam from the beginning? It's been open season by scammers on gullible public over social issues for a while now. See: lesbian waitress receipt scammer, black waitress receipt scammer, and others.

[ThePaleoLibertarian]

I never liked Shapiro but he does have a point.

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/04/02/fake-libertarians-run-from-religious-freedom-restoration-act/
That's a pretty good article, with the exception of what he said about Bill Maher. He hasn't identified as a libertarian in aomse time, and he certainly isn't one of the new breed of libertarian Republicans.

Penn Jillette is a deep disappointment. Any movement that is not properly right wing will become leftist, and this is an example of that process in action.

[enhanced_deficit]

What an outstanding business plan. Do you suppose they'll franchise it?

Don't know but RFRA may get quite popular now across more states going by this support response.


She probably wishes she would have done that, but she didn't, and she paid for it with death threats, nasty websites, vicious comments and ultimately having to close her doors. Someone had the wherewithal to start a fundraising site for her.

I agree that much worse things are happening in Kenya and other places in the world to Christians. But religious persecution is also happening to Palestinians and many others on this planet of ours. Does that mean this pizza owner should just be kicked to the curb because her problems don't equate to the problems of others?

The divide and conquer strategy is alive and well in this country, I'm sorry to say.

Good point.

[JohnM]

It would be interesting to know who set up the fundraising site. Was it a concerned citizen, or family member?

If you look at the web page, you will see that it was set up by Lawrence Billy Jones III, and on the page he writes


My name is Lawrence Jones, and I'm one of the television opinion contributors on Dana's show.

Before the televised interview, producers Rachel, Allison and George discussed the situation with Dana, myself and head writer Ben Howe. We all agreed: this family needs help to get through this assault.

So we set up a GoFundMe page with the modest goal of $25,000. The intent was to help the family stave off the burdensome cost of having the media parked out front, activists tearing them down, and no customers coming in.

As I understand it, after the initial media coverage and the hostile comment on social media, the owners of the business were interviewed on Dana's show on Blaze TV.

Read their account of it here. http://www.gofundme.com/MemoriesPizza

It seems clear to me that the owners of the business did not have the idea of setting up the donation page, that they were genuinely alarmed enough to consider giving up the business permanently, and that nobody initially anticipated that more than $20,000 or $30,000 would be raised.

I had a look at Lawrence Jones' twitter account https://twitter.com/lawrencebjones3 and it made interesting reading.

My take on this is that the owners never anticipated the publicity their comment to the media would cause, never anticipated the amount of bile and vitriol they would receive, and never anticipated the amount of money that would flow into the appeal - currently looking like it might come very close to a million bucks.

[PierzStyx]

The color of your skin is not a behavior.

The Thug Life is tho.http://gnagsta.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/dirty-wigga-300x264.jpg

[PierzStyx]

Please allow me to point out that ridicule on social media and threatening phone calls (which are a violation of the law) are not persecution, especially in light of the fact that the shop owners made their beliefs public. They didn't actually refuse service to anyone. They voluntarily agreed to an interview with local media and said they would not cater a gay wedding. They were willing to accept publicity for their shop, but not criticism for a lack of wisdom in what they said and how they said it. And now they have a huge windfall.

There was persecution in Kenya today. Garissa University, a Christian college, was the site of a mass murder. Those who confessed to be Christians were shot.


Threats of violence and criticism are two different things.

Criticism: The way you run your business is stupid.

Threats: I'm going to burn your fucking homophobic business down!

See the difference?

[Pericles]

The owner was baited. And I don't think it was a gay group who baited her either. This is just another effort to divide people. And idiots like the coach always fall for it hook-line-and sinker.

Could turn out like Chick-fil-a - the owner can now open a chain of pizza joints and knock off Pizza Hut. Free markets FTW!

[oyarde]

I did some hunting near there in the early 90's , seems like there was a good fish house around there .

[AuH20]

http://www.infowars.com/leftists-attempt-to-shut-down-fundraising-for-memories-pizza/

[r3volution 3.0]

I'd wager that the overwhelming majority of the people expressing support for the pizzeria would be on the other side of the barricade if they had turned down a black person, for instance. In other words, they're not protesting for a right to discriminate; they're protesting for a right to discriminate against people they don't like. This may seem like a good cause for libertarians, but it isn't. If we got in there, and made our argument, both sides would end up hating us. Hence Rand's silence.

[PRB]

I'd wager that the overwhelming majority of the people expressing support for the pizzeria would be on the other side of the barricade if they had turned down a black person, for instance. In other words, they're not protesting for a right to discriminate; they're protesting for a right to discriminate against people they don't like. This may seem like a good cause for libertarians, but it isn't. If we got in there, and made our argument, both sides would end up hating us. Hence Rand's silence.

That's because there is no religious justification for racism, only religious justification for being anti-gay marriage.

[Deborah K]

Meanwhile,


.. a GoFundMe campaign “horrified” by support for “a small business that gained fame for no other reason than their public admission of a willingness to discriminate against other human beings” has raised a total of $0 for an LGBT organization of its choice and has since been scrapped.

https://www.yahoo.com/tv/s/indiana-pizzeria-donations-reach-whopping-842-387-wake-230744067.html

[Voluntarist]

xxxxx

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

That's because there is no religious justification for racism, only religious justification for being anti-gay marriage.



Did you fool yourself into thinking that it was only your own religiously-excused bigotry that was being protected by the Indiana law



PRB is a Jewish Democrat who basically got booted from the religion forum for his Catholic bashing. Combine that with his pretending to be libertarian on this forum, and it adds up to not taking him seriously.

[PRB]

By any chance are you confusing the phrase "there is no religious justification for racism" with your own perspective of "there is no justification for racism in my own specific religious beliefs"?



Actually, no. I know what I meant, and I admit I expressed it poorly.


This may be a better phrasing : There is currently no recognized religious excuse to discriminate against protected groups. States vary on whether gays and transgender people are protected groups, but under federal law, minorities based race, sex, nationality, religion are always protected groups. In other words, no state law can allow racial discrimination regardless of what excuse you can think up. But discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity, is still an open door in some states, so religious excuses work fine (though should be unnecessary).




Did you fool yourself into thinking that it was only your own religiously-excused bigotry that was being protected by the Indiana law (and others like it)?



Yes. I'm under the impression that the Indiana law, or RFRA, would only protect discrimination if
1) it's religiously defined (easy to do, hard to prove)
2) it's not against a protected group (protected group basically means, they have more rights under law than property owners, think of disabled people forcing every business in America to have ADA parking spots regardless of how likely it is used)




If the Indiana law is to be believed, then it protects discrimination based upon the religious beliefs of the discriminator, even if those beliefs happen to be contrary to yours or anyone else's specific religious beliefs.



It has nothing to do with whether the discriminator's beliefs conform or conflict with anybody's belief, it only protects the discriminator's rights as long as it's not against a protected group. As I said earlier, if you had a racist religious doctrine (there's plenty), in the US, due to CRA and similar laws, you still cannot refuse to serve a black person, it's flat out illegal and the feds will be happy to persecute the next daring offender.




And the religious beliefs of that person could very well justify discrimination against those who bear the mark of Cain (which they perceive as black skin). That is, of course, unless the government is going to insert itself into sorting out what is a valid and proper relious belief and what is not - something that this law will end up allowing government to do.



You are correct, if you ignored the more basic question, or the law that makes this question irrelevant : racial discrimination is illegal in this country, there are no excuses or recognized justifications. So the government doesn't waste time determining whether you have a valid or religiously protected excuse, the government simply denies your right to discriminate based on race.




Its the unintended consequence of the special protection that the religious have sought via this law.



I'm not sure if it's unintended.




For an example of what government does when invited into religion, witness what the government did to marriage when religion turned it over to them (to keep the races from intermarrying).



Wait, you mean to tell me Americans always wanted to intermarry and religions have fought for it, it was all the government's fault for stopping it? Or is it possible that it's the other way around, Americans never wanted to until they wanted to, then asked the government to force everybody to accept it?




What if your particular creed said there was no justification for discriminating against homosexuals. Would the Indiana law not apply to discrimination against homosexuals because your creed said there was no basis for discrimination against homosexuals.



Like you said already, the law protects the discriminatOR, not the discriminatED, the discriminatED has no say.



How will such sanction of "proper religious excuses for discrimination" be decided - majority vote of the legislature?


Under the first amendment & history of rulings, something is religious if
1) somebody says it is
2) there's no other way to explain it

As far as "who is the government to decide what's a religion?", sorry, that's been true for decades, the IRS is practically the first and last legally in deciding whether an organization is religious. (See the HBO movie "Going Clear") When ruled religious, an organization gets automatic tax exemption, something other non profits have to fight for and prove.

However, whether it's a recognized excuse to do something illegal, is always a simple "no". If smoking pot is illegal, there's no religious excuse. If murder is illegal, there's no religious excuse. If sodomy is illegal, there's no religous excuse. Lynching blacks, prostitution, polygamy, child molestation, ...the list goes on, if something is a crime, it's never excused by religious arguments.

Racism when expressed in discrimination, is illegal, and no excuses for it, religious or otherwise.



If your religious bigotry can garner a majority vote, then it's sanctioned by the state?


Nope.



And so now we'll find that there are some subsets of religious beliefs that are OK to use as justification for discrimination, and some that are not; won't we?


Won't have to.

Lastly, I was expressing and conveying facts based on what I know. The fact the government exists and has laws that restrict our freedom, doesn't mean I like it or advocate it, telling you the things as they are is not the same as saying they "should" be so.

[PRB]

PRB is a Jewish Democrat who basically got booted from the religion forum for his Catholic bashing. Combine that with his pretending to be libertarian on this forum, and it adds up to not taking him seriously.

if you don't want to take me seriously, fine, don't. No need to keep calling me a liar, paid shill, Democrat, Jew or continue following me around neg repping.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

if you don't want to take me seriously, fine, don't. No need to keep calling me a liar, paid shill, Democrat, Jew or continue following me around neg repping.


If you don't want to make legit posts on this site, then fine. No need to keep following people around you claim are "conspiracy theorists," inflation nuts, etc. No need to deny your true intentions here and whine when you're called out on it.

[PRB]

If you don't want to make legit posts on this site, then fine. No need to keep following people around you claim are "conspiracy theorists," inflation nuts, etc. No need to deny your true intentions here and whine when you're called out on it.

Taking this thread as an example, what makes my posts non-legit compared to others?

I'm not playing dumb, I'm sincerely interested in your criticism if you can share.

I follow topics on this forum, not people. I whine when people lie, I can take ridicule and criticism, I don't like liars and child molesters.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Taking this thread as an example, what makes my posts non-legit compared to others?



Oh, be quiet already. You people are absolutely pitiful. The evidence of your misdeeds on this site is overwhelming. OVERWHELMING. You people are as obvious as the nose on your face.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

http://i.imgur.com/DFsmy7R.png


That pizza looks like it has herpes. Or AIDS.

[otherone]

That pizza looks like it has herpes. Or AIDS.

That's why it's "memories" pizza.

[mrsat_98]

Is this thread about the pizza place that would not serve gays that hit the media on April Fools Day ?

[milgram]

Why not just call their bluff? It seems like these customers don't really want service, they want scour the countryside for someone to sue.

"You want my Christian bookstore to cater your gay wedding? Uh, okay. How many copies of the Exhaustive Bible Concordance will you need?"

[PRB]

Oh, be quiet already. You people are absolutely pitiful. The evidence of your misdeeds on this site is overwhelming. OVERWHELMING. You people are as obvious as the nose on your face.

you can't answer a simple question once again.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

you can't answer a simple question once again.

You're denying. Once again. Evidence has been posted countless times.

Nice try at attempting to fool the people not familiar with your fake libertarianism and misdeeds here.

[juleswin]

That's because there is no religious justification for racism, only religious justification for being anti-gay marriage.

Ron Paul says you don't have rights because you belong to a group, you have rights because you are human, so why should being a member of a religious group grant you a special right to discriminate that I don't have as an atheist?

Btw to the people asking, Glen Beck set up or help set up the fundraiser for the pizza shop. And boy did they win the jackpot on this. Now I am wishing someone would send death threats my way.

[PRB]

You're denying. Once again. Evidence has been posted countless times.

Nice try at attempting to fool the people not familiar with your fake libertarianism and misdeeds here.

My question was specifically, IN THIS THREAD, WHAT POST DID I MAKE THAT WAS NOT LEGIT, AND WHY.

[PRB]

Ron Paul says you don't have rights because you belong to a group, you have rights because you are human, so why should being a member of a religious group grant you a special right to discriminate that I don't have as an atheist?


Again, Ron Paul is right, religious beliefs DON'T give you special rights. You CAN discriminate against gay people based on non-religious beliefs (or personal beliefs lacking religious connotation), at least in Indiana without gays being a protected group. You DON'T need to justify discrimination if it's legal, you CAN'T excuse discrimination if it's illegal. Religious arguments have more for PR than practical or legal arguments.

Like I said earlier, what determines if something is religious? Just by a person saying so and the IRS not challenging it. Legally, that's the only criteria.



Btw to the people asking, Glen Beck set up or help set up the fundraiser for the pizza shop. And boy did they win the jackpot on this. Now I am wishing someone would send death threats my way.

Try it, maybe you will get the money you're praying for.

[Deborah K]

Ron Paul says you don't have rights because you belong to a group, you have rights because you are human, so why should being a member of a religious group grant you a special right to discriminate that I don't have as an atheist?


It's not a "special right" to exercise your religious beliefs it's a Constitutional right. A person who identifies as a Christian, does so because they believe in Christ and follow his teachings as they are explained by Christ and his representatives in the New Testament. It clearly states in the N.T. (as well as the Old) that homosexual behavior is an abomination. If a pizzeria makes a decision to refuse services to a group of people who identify as homosexuals - based on their religious beliefs, the pizzaria can easily qualify it by referencing the Bible.

I'd like to make a few points about this:

First, there are many businesses of faith that [I]will[I] cater to gays, because they view the teachings of the Bible differently. As you have most assuredly witnessed in these very forums - not all people of faith interpret the Bible or view things in the same way.

Also, business owners are always vulnerable to public pressure, so if the overriding opinion in their community is that they are wrongheaded about an issue- they will end up going out of business.

Additionally, gays can easily set up their own pizzerias, etc. and cater to other gays if they wish. Almost all metropolis areas have gay communities which do just that. And so the issue of actual homosexual discrimination is extremely minimal and is being blown out of proportion. Imagine that.

And, as a side note: I think these state laws regarding freedom of religion show how the Constitution (which already protects freedom of religion) is slowly but surely being rendered irrelevant. The only way laws like these should be considered, is if the Fedgov is dismantled (yaye!) and state gov'ts put the Bill of Rights in each of their Constitutions.

And finally, if individual freedom is the goal, then you should have the right to refuse service to anyone, without the threat of death or imprisonment. And others should have the right to avoid your establishment, and start their own.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

My question was specifically, IN THIS THREAD, WHAT POST DID I MAKE THAT WAS NOT LEGIT, AND WHY.

I'm not exposing your misdeeds for your benefit. I am talking to others here.

[PRB]

I'm not exposing your misdeeds for your benefit. I am talking to others here.

You can make your excuses all you want, fact is, you don't know the answer. You're full of shit and lies and baseless accusations.

Can you concede in this thread I made no non-legit posts?

[PRB]

It's not a "special right" to exercise your religious beliefs it's a Constitutional right. A person who identifies as a Christian, does so because they believe in Christ and follow his teachings as they are explained by Christ and his representatives in the New Testament. It clearly states in the N.T. (as well as the Old) that homosexual behavior is an abomination. If a pizzeria makes a decision to refuse services to a group of people who identify as homosexuals - based on their religious beliefs, the pizzaria can easily qualify it by referencing the Bible.

I'd like to make a few points about this:

First, there are many businesses of faith that [I]will[I] cater to gays, because they view the teachings of the Bible differently. As you have most assuredly witnessed in these very forums - not all people of faith interpret the Bible or view things in the same way.

Also, business owners are always vulnerable to public pressure, so if the overriding opinion in their community is that they are wrongheaded about an issue- they will end up going out of business.

Additionally, gays can easily set up their own pizzerias, etc. and cater to other gays if they wish. Almost all metropolis areas have gay communities which do just that. And so the issue of actual homosexual discrimination is extremely minimal and is being blown out of proportion. Imagine that.

And, as a side note: I think these state laws regarding freedom of religion show how the Constitution (which already protects freedom of religion) is slowly but surely being rendered irrelevant. The only way laws like these should be considered, is if the Fedgov is dismantled (yaye!) and state gov'ts put the Bill of Rights in each of their Constitutions.

And finally, if individual freedom is the goal, then you should have the right to refuse service to anyone, without the threat of death or imprisonment. And others should have the right to avoid your establishment, and start their own.

That doesn't answer her/his question.

Can an atheist make up his own excuses on why he doesn't want to serve gay people, and be protected under Indiana's law? After all, he can't claim it's religious of he spends the rest of his day insisting he's against religion and atheism isn't a religion.

[Deborah K]

That doesn't answer her/his question.

Can an atheist make up his own excuses on why he doesn't want to serve gay people, and be protected under Indiana's law? After all, he can't claim it's religious of he spends the rest of his day insisting he's against religion and atheism isn't a religion.

He was calling the right a "special right". I scrutinized that terminology because it isn't accurate. Let's leave the Indiana law out of it since religious freedom is already protected. Whether or not atheism is a religion is highly debatable, and is worth a discussion on its own merit, especially since Federal Court has ruled that Secular Humanism is a religion, and that atheism deserves the same protections as all other religions. So, it isn't really an applicable question.

In a truly free society, and putting aside his religious beliefs or lack thereof, if Juleswin, as a store owner, decided he didn't want to serve a certain group - say -the Klu Klux Klan, or a group of men from NAMBLA, or Gays, or Jocks, or whomever, don't you think he should have the right to deny them service if he wants to?

[PRB]

He was calling the right a "special right". I scrutinized that terminology because it isn't accurate. Let's leave the Indiana law out of it since religious freedom is already protected. Whether or not atheism is a religion is highly debatable, and is worth a discussion on its own merit, especially since Federal Court has ruled that Secular Humanism is a religion, and that atheism deserves the same protections as all other religions. So, it isn't really an applicable question.


The applicable question is : do atheists have a right to discriminate against gays based on their non-religious beliefs? Or are only discrimination based on religious beliefs of non-protcted groups allowed? My belief and understanding is, you do not need a religious argument to discriminate, am I right?




In a truly free society, and putting aside his religious beliefs or lack thereof, if Juleswin, as a store owner, decided he didn't want to serve a certain group - say -the Klu Klux Klan, or a group of men from NAMBLA, or Gays, or Jocks, or whomever, don't you think he should have the right to deny them service if he wants to?

Yes. But don't forget racial minorities too.

[Deborah K]

The applicable question is : do atheists have a right to discriminate against gays based on their non-religious beliefs? Or are only discrimination based on religious beliefs of non-protcted groups allowed? My belief and understanding is, you do not need a religious argument to discriminate, am I right?

In my mind, you are right. In the eyes of these stupid lawmakers - yeah - I guess you do need a religious argument to discriminate, but as I stated, a precedent has been set for atheism to have the same rights as the religious.


Yes. But don't forget racial minorities too.

Well as I stated before: if individual freedom is the goal, then you should have the right to refuse service to anyone, without the threat of death or imprisonment. And others should have the right to avoid your establishment, and start their own.

Wouldn't this solve the problem?

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Religious arguments have more for PR than practical or legal arguments.



Religious arguments can be quite practical. You can exempt yourself from war, vaccines, Obamacare, and a laundry list of other things.






You're full of shit and lies and baseless accusations.



LOL. The facts about your misdeeds are well established.

If anybody, or new DP members, want more info, then just let me know.

[DamianTV]

Should a gay owned pizza shop be forced to cater an event run by Focus on the Family?

+Rep for identifying FORCE as the source of the problem.

When two people have sex, both parties must concent. If one party does not concent and sex is forced by either party, it is deemed Rape. Both parties must also retain the right to say No, thereby nullifying Force. The effort that is being made here is using Force By Law to legalize one party raping the other. This is DOUBLETHINK. Holding on to two opposing ideas within a statement. It would be like saying "it is okay for women to rape men, but men are prohibited from raping women". Rape is rape, and this is transactional rape, where gay is used as nothing more as an excuse and is the source of the Doublethink. Solar Powered Flashlight is typically also used as an example of Doublethink, where it is expected to work in the dark, but he dark is the only place the flashlight will not function. Solar Powered Flashlights are interpreted as "funny" because of how obvious the two opposing ideas are. What is really on the line here is the Right to Say No. When we turn Excuses in to Legal Reasons, we enable converting Rights into Priviledges. If people want to retain the Right to Say No, we must support both the positive and negative version of the Right. If I want to retain the Right to Say No to you, I must also support your Right to Say No to me as well. Rights are only limited in their Scope by the Equal Rights of others. And that is exactly what is not happening with that Law. What the Law is saying is Gays can Say No to whoever they want, but Businesses do NOT retain such Rights, thus, Rights in general are whittled away.

Make no mistake that this is not simply a Gay Rights issue. Gay is used as an excuse to use Legal Force to cause Compulsory Concent that only needs to be held by One Party at the expense of the other. jmdrake also got it right because he changed the context to a different situation. Should Gay business owners be Forced to do business with Straight people. But lets try several other situations. Should Black business owners be Forced to do business with White customers? Should White business owners be Forced to do business with Black customers? If a Muslim Female demands sex from a Buddhist Male, should the Buddhist Male be Forced into sex? Flip it to the opposite, where a Straight Pagan Asian Female be able to demand sex from a White Christian Female? Should a Business Owner be able to demand people give them money in exchange for a product or service the forced party does not want? Although Insurance probably comes to mind, think Pizza. Should the Gay owner of a Pizza Business be able to demand that everyone buy their Pizzas? Should a Christian Gay Female be able to demand Straight Hispanic Muslim Males buy their pizzas? By changing the Context, we see that this disparages upon the Right to Say No based on emotional bias to one of the excuses and only results in Less Rights for everyone. Validation is manufactured through the emotional bias one has on the Group Divider, Gay vs Straight, Male vs Female, Christian vs Muslim, simple Divide and Conquer by validating compulsion based on the Divider instead of the Unifier of Equal Rights. Bias is generated by the perceived Importance and Size of the dominant group or individual. The last thing this Law does is validats Govt Intervention and existence. It stems from the concept that Rights come from Govt, which is nothing more than more Group Think Validation. This group of people, because they are a part of a "Legitimate Govt" has more Rights than those who are not a part of the Govt, thus the "Superior Rights of Govt" can be damned and this Law is Invalid because it disparages the Rights of both Individuals and Groups in favor of one with Validation by Govt. The only solution we have is to support both the positive and negative form of the Right to Say No, which places a higher degree of value on Equal Rights instead of a selective group. When we both retain both forms of the Rights, Right to Say Yes, and Right to Say No, we create Equal Rights where one persons Rights are only limited by the Equal Rights of others.

Key Points:
- Right to Say No
- Doublethink
- Equal Rights

Compulsory Action is the Antithesis of Freedom. Cooperation and Mutual Concent are the foundations of Freedom; Compulsion is the foundation of Tyranny.

[jmdrake]

How many weddings (Gay, Hetro, or Dog) have pizza catered?

I have to wonder if these good folks check the sexual background of everyone they sell to..
Do they Cater Weddings for the previously divorced?

Just what other glutinous and hedonistic events are they willing to cater?

I hate hypocrisy more that just about anything else.

Weak analogy. You can be against something and not want to do an invasive background check. I'm against efforts to close the so called "gun show loophole" and make private gun owners do background checks but if I knew ahead of time that someone who wanted to buy a gun from me was a dangerous felon I wouldn't sell it to him. Similarly a pizza shop that doesn't want to cater a wedding for a same sex couple isn't being hypocritical for not "going the extra mile" and doing background checks on every wedding that calls. In fact if someone made an order for pizza for a wedding and didn't say "We're two ladies/dudes getting married" this probably would never be an issue. Pizza is not like a wedding cake where you have figurines of the couple on top. Whenever I've called to order pizza I just said what I wanted and where I wanted delivered. I didn't give the nature of the event let alone details about it.

[jmdrake]

Why not just call their bluff? It seems like these customers don't really want service, they want scour the countryside for someone to sue.

"You want my Christian bookstore to cater your gay wedding? Uh, okay. How many copies of the Exhaustive Bible Concordance will you need?"

That's not in your face enough. There Christian gays. In order to make the point you have to deliver copies of "pray the gay away." Another way to call the bluff is to simply make the order and donate half of the proceeds to James Dobson. :p

[PRB]

Religious arguments can be quite practical. You can exempt yourself from war, vaccines, Obamacare, and a laundry list of other things.

So you ARE saying that (self proclaimed) religious people have special rights, OK, you have a point, I'll take that.

[PRB]

If anybody, or new DP members, want more info, then just let me know.

DP? what's that? Daily Paul?

[jmdrake]

Yeah, you can make all sorts of comparisons. But I like the ones that best fit the actual scenario. What makes this case different than what's been typical in discrimination cases is that this isn't discrimination based on a group but rather discrimination based on an event. Subtle but important difference. The owners said they are fine with serving gays. I believe them. They don't want to service an event that they disagree with. You mentioned black businesses having to service white people. That's the case under current federal civil rights law. And frankly you'd be hard pressed to find a black business owner that didn't want white business! But....a black business having to serve a Tea Party event? Having to listen for hours to people drone on and on about how they can't stand Obama and that Obama is really a Muslim and everything else? Now that would be a problem for people. Realize the paradigm shift here. Catch the fine print. I would be against an ambulance driver being able to show up to an accident and refuse to help someone because that person was gay. That makes me less that 100% libertarian? Fine. Maybe in a "perfect free market", that doesn't exist, where people can start hospitals and ambulance services without government permission this would all work out. But I don't think a pizza owner should have to do a gay wedding or a black wedding or an interracial wedding. I believe, after a lot of thought, that the real reason for the civil rights act was to get the KKK off the backs of white southern businessmen who wanted black dollars. "Hey Bubba! Sorry but we can't discriminate. It's the law." Nowadays the markets will sufficiently punish racists. And over time, if the market wants too, it will sufficiently punish "homophobes." Just ask Chik-Fil-A.


+Rep for identifying FORCE as the source of the problem.

When two people have sex, both parties must concent. If one party does not concent and sex is forced by either party, it is deemed Rape. Both parties must also retain the right to say No, thereby nullifying Force. The effort that is being made here is using Force By Law to legalize one party raping the other. This is DOUBLETHINK. Holding on to two opposing ideas within a statement. It would be like saying "it is okay for women to rape men, but men are prohibited from raping women". Rape is rape, and this is transactional rape, where gay is used as nothing more as an excuse and is the source of the Doublethink. Solar Powered Flashlight is typically also used as an example of Doublethink, where it is expected to work in the dark, but he dark is the only place the flashlight will not function. Solar Powered Flashlights are interpreted as "funny" because of how obvious the two opposing ideas are. What is really on the line here is the Right to Say No. When we turn Excuses in to Legal Reasons, we enable converting Rights into Priviledges. If people want to retain the Right to Say No, we must support both the positive and negative version of the Right. If I want to retain the Right to Say No to you, I must also support your Right to Say No to me as well. Rights are only limited in their Scope by the Equal Rights of others. And that is exactly what is not happening with that Law. What the Law is saying is Gays can Say No to whoever they want, but Businesses do NOT retain such Rights, thus, Rights in general are whittled away.

Make no mistake that this is not simply a Gay Rights issue. Gay is used as an excuse to use Legal Force to cause Compulsory Concent that only needs to be held by One Party at the expense of the other. jmdrake also got it right because he changed the context to a different situation. Should Gay business owners be Forced to do business with Straight people. But lets try several other situations. Should Black business owners be Forced to do business with White customers? Should White business owners be Forced to do business with Black customers? If a Muslim Female demands sex from a Buddhist Male, should the Buddhist Male be Forced into sex? Flip it to the opposite, where a Straight Pagan Asian Female be able to demand sex from a White Christian Female? Should a Business Owner be able to demand people give them money in exchange for a product or service the forced party does not want? Although Insurance probably comes to mind, think Pizza. Should the Gay owner of a Pizza Business be able to demand that everyone buy their Pizzas? Should a Christian Gay Female be able to demand Straight Hispanic Muslim Males buy their pizzas? By changing the Context, we see that this disparages upon the Right to Say No based on emotional bias to one of the excuses and only results in Less Rights for everyone. Validation is manufactured through the emotional bias one has on the Group Divider, Gay vs Straight, Male vs Female, Christian vs Muslim, simple Divide and Conquer by validating compulsion based on the Divider instead of the Unifier of Equal Rights. Bias is generated by the perceived Importance and Size of the dominant group or individual. The last thing this Law does is validats Govt Intervention and existence. It stems from the concept that Rights come from Govt, which is nothing more than more Group Think Validation. This group of people, because they are a part of a "Legitimate Govt" has more Rights than those who are not a part of the Govt, thus the "Superior Rights of Govt" can be damned and this Law is Invalid because it disparages the Rights of both Individuals and Groups in favor of one with Validation by Govt. The only solution we have is to support both the positive and negative form of the Right to Say No, which places a higher degree of value on Equal Rights instead of a selective group. When we both retain both forms of the Rights, Right to Say Yes, and Right to Say No, we create Equal Rights where one persons Rights are only limited by the Equal Rights of others.

Key Points:
- Right to Say No
- Doublethink
- Equal Rights

Compulsory Action is the Antithesis of Freedom. Cooperation and Mutual Concent are the foundations of Freedom; Compulsion is the foundation of Tyranny.

[Deborah K]

Someone rep jmdrake for me please?

[devil21]

Someone rep jmdrake for me please?

did

[juleswin]

It's not a "special right" to exercise your religious beliefs it's a Constitutional right. A person who identifies as a Christian, does so because they believe in Christ and follow his teachings as they are explained by Christ and his representatives in the New Testament. It clearly states in the N.T. (as well as the Old) that homosexual behavior is an abomination. If a pizzeria makes a decision to refuse services to a group of people who identify as homosexuals - based on their religious beliefs, the pizzaria can easily qualify it by referencing the Bible.

I'd like to make a few points about this:

First, there are many businesses of faith that [I]will[I] cater to gays, because they view the teachings of the Bible differently. As you have most assuredly witnessed in these very forums - not all people of faith interpret the Bible or view things in the same way.

Also, business owners are always vulnerable to public pressure, so if the overriding opinion in their community is that they are wrongheaded about an issue- they will end up going out of business.

Additionally, gays can easily set up their own pizzerias, etc. and cater to other gays if they wish. Almost all metropolis areas have gay communities which do just that. And so the issue of actual homosexual discrimination is extremely minimal and is being blown out of proportion. Imagine that.

And, as a side note: I think these state laws regarding freedom of religion show how the Constitution (which already protects freedom of religion) is slowly but surely being rendered irrelevant. The only way laws like these should be considered, is if the Fedgov is dismantled (yaye!) and state gov'ts put the Bill of Rights in each of their Constitutions.

And finally, if individual freedom is the goal, then you should have the right to refuse service to anyone, without the threat of death or imprisonment. And others should have the right to avoid your establishment, and start their own.

I say its a special right because its a right exclusive to religious folks. I agree with just about everything to said in the post, but I am still not convinced that its not a special right. Religious folks get exception to some taxes, fighting wars, vaccinations and now discrimination. I just think they should remove the religious qualifier to it and allow everybody to claim that right. I want all those rights without having to lie about being religious.

Btw I think business discriminating against a paying customer is bad for business but people should have the right to hurt their sales. This is still the "land of the free" right?

Welcome Back Deborah K, you must have lost a ton of weight from that winter hibernation :)

[Deborah K]

Religious folks get exception to some taxes, fighting wars, vaccinations and now discrimination. I just think they should remove the religious qualifier to it and allow everybody to claim that right. I want all those rights without having to lie about being religious.


I agree. It shouldn't be necessary to have to claim religious grounds to have those rights.


Welcome Back Deborah K, you must have lost a ton of weight from that winter hibernation :)

Thank you, Jules. It's good to be back.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

So you ARE saying that (self proclaimed) religious people have special rights, OK, you have a point, I'll take that.

Everyone on earth has the same rights as human beings. No such thing as gay rights, women's rights, religious rights, etc.. You mentioned practical, so I addressed that point. How things play out in real life is often quite different.

[PRB]

Everyone on earth has the same rights as human beings. No such thing as gay rights, women's rights, religious rights, etc.. You mentioned practical, so I addressed that point. How things play out in real life is often quite different.

How things play out in real life is exactly and only what I am talking about. So yes, you basically admitted that practically, religious people have more privileges, rights and benefits than those who do not proclaim their right to refuse war, vaccines, Obamacare, school, contraception for employees, and a laundry list of other things.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

How things play out in real life is exactly and only what I am talking about. So yes, you basically admitted that practically, religious people have more privileges, rights and benefits than those who do not proclaim their right to refuse war, vaccines, Obamacare, school, contraception for employees, and a laundry list of other things.

I don't see it. Anybody can claim to be religious. The same arguments that aren't "religious" parallel the religious ones. You can, for example, be a conscientious objector to avoid battle. Same with vaccines. In fact, the health exemption for vaccines exists in all 50 states, and is easier to get than people think (e.g, just cite allergic reaction). You can be a Mennonite to avoid Obamacare, but Forbes just listed a dozen other Obamacare exemptions that have nothing to do with religion.

Religion is not the only practicality. More than one way to skin a cat.

Anyway, do you, as a Jewish person claim special privilege or right?

[PRB]

I don't see it. Anybody can claim to be religious. The same arguments that aren't "religious" parallel the religious ones. You can, for example, be a conscientious objector to avoid battle. Same with vaccines. In fact, the health exemption for vaccines exists in all 50 states, and is easier to get than people think (e.g, just cite allergic reaction). You can be a Mennonite to avoid Obamacare, but Forbes just listed a dozen other Obamacare exemptions that have nothing to do with religion.

Religion is not the only practicality. More than one way to skin a cat.


Let me put it this way, this is not a trick question, I'm honestly interested in knowing if you know. If you don't know, no worries, I'll wait for somebody who does. Are you saying an atheist can utilize all the ways a religious person skins a cat, without actually saying he's religious? Sure, Obamacare has a dozen non-religious exemptions, but what about vaccines, war, and the rest of the laundry list? Do they all allow anybody to make any argument to be exempt? Or must some be exclusively "religious beliefs"?

I mean, I get that atheists and people who oppose religions open CAN technically lie to get what they want, they may engage in logical contradiction but if the law protects them, good for them.



Anyway, do you, as a Jewish person claim special privilege or right?

I'm not a Jew.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

I'm not a Jew.


You're not? I figure you're atheist/agnostic, but you're not culturally? Parents? I find that very hard to believe, considering your posts.

[PRB]

You're not? I figure you're atheist/agnostic, but you're not culturally? Parents? I find that very hard to believe, considering your posts.

What? Did I post something about Holocaust or Israel that leads you to think I'm a Jew?

[56ktarget]

I guess Paulites don't like the free market response at work

[PRB]

I guess Paulites don't like the free market response at work

huh???

[oyarde]

I guess Paulites don't like the free market response at work

Actually , I do like free markets , very much .

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

What? Did I post something about Holocaust or Israel that leads you to think I'm a Jew?

Ah yes; the scoundrel answering a question with a question. Instead of just answering, you continue to justifying your fibbing by seeing all of this in the context of your lawyer games instead of the larger context.

[pcosmar]

Why not just call their bluff?

Call whose bluff?

No Gay couple wanted this store to cater anything.. NO ONE was refused service.

These people voluntarily made a public announcement that they would not cater a Gay wedding (though they had never been asked) and they got some negative feedback.

Then they closed their shop and cried,,, and people(suckers) are filling their pockets with more money than they could make selling a product.

[jmdrake]

I guess Paulites don't like the free market response at work

The free market just made these pizza owners over $170,000 richer for being against gay marriage. I'm not upset. I'm trying to figure out how to cash in! I don't care either way. I just want the $170K.

[jmdrake]

Call whose bluff?

No Gay couple wanted this store to cater anything.. NO ONE was refused service.

These people voluntarily made a public announcement that they would not cater a Gay wedding (though they had never been asked) and they got some negative feedback.

Then they closed their shop and cried,,, and people(suckers) are filling their pockets with more money than they could make selling a product.

And good for them. It's not every day that you get to make your enemies look stupid and fill your pockets at the same time. And for the "suckers" filling their pockets, they got to feel good about themselves by helping a cause they supported get publicity. Kinda like donating to a moneybomb

[phill4paul]

Call whose bluff?

No Gay couple wanted this store to cater anything.. NO ONE was refused service.

These people voluntarily made a public announcement that they would not cater a Gay wedding (though they had never been asked) and they got some negative feedback.

Then they closed their shop and cried,,, and people(suckers) are filling their pockets with more money than they could make selling a product.

To the tune of $842k. That's the equivalent of selling 56k pizzas @ $15 each. They would have to sell 142 pizzas a day, 7 days a week, in a town of 2,200 people to rake in that amount of cash in a year.

[phill4paul]

The free market just made these pizza owners over $170,000 richer for being against gay marriage. I'm not upset. I'm trying to figure out how to cash in! I don't care either way. I just want the $170K.

Like me you low balled it. They are setting on $847k.

[jmdrake]

To the tune of $842k. That's the equivalent of selling 56k pizzas @ $15 each. They would have to sell 142 pizzas a day, 7 days a week, in a town of 2,200 people to rake in that amount of cash in a year.

Wow! Just freaking wow! They can sell the pizza business, invest the money and retire! This isn't bigotry. It's financial genius!

[Sam I am]

Call whose bluff?

No Gay couple wanted this store to cater anything.. NO ONE was refused service.

These people voluntarily made a public announcement that they would not cater a Gay wedding (though they had never been asked) and they got some negative feedback.

Then they closed their shop and cried,,, and people(suckers) are filling their pockets with more money than they could make selling a product.

My understanding of it is that they actually were approached by a reporter and asked about it, because they were apparently known to be a religious institution, and that's why they gave the statement that they did.

[phill4paul]

Wow! Just freaking wow! They can sell the pizza business, invest the money and retire! This isn't bigotry. It's financial genius!

I know, right? I need to find myself a cause celebre.

[enhanced_deficit]

Wonder how much money these bakers supporters would raise:

Christian bakers fined $135,000 for refusing to make wedding cake for lesbians
By Todd Starnes

Published July 02, 2015

http://a57.foxnews.com/images.foxnews.com/content/fox-news/opinion/2015/07/02/christian-bakers-fined-135000-for-refusing-to-make-wedding-cake-for-lesbians/_jcr_content/par/featured-media/media-0.img.jpg/876/493/1435875220362.jpg?ve=1&tl=1
The owners of a mom and pop bakery have just learned there is a significant price to pay for following their religious beliefs.
Aaron and Melissa Klein, the owners of Sweet Cakes By Melissa, have been ordered to pay $135,000 in damages to a lesbian couple after they refused to bake them a wedding cake in 2013.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2015/07/02/christian-bakers-fined-135000-for-refusing-to-make-wedding-cake-for-lesbians.html

[devil21]

Wonder how much money these bakers supporters would raise:

Christian bakers fined $135,000 for refusing to make wedding cake for lesbians


Unless I can read the actual court order ordering them to pay that clearly absurd amount, I'm going to call bs on this story.