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tangent4ronpaul
03-22-2015, 05:21 AM
http://www.thenation.com/blog/201369/what-about-israels-nuclear-bomb

After Bibi Netanyahu’s provocative speech to Congress, The New York Times provided helpful clarifications in an article headlined “What Iran Won’t Say About the Bomb.” Written by two superbly expert reporters, William Broad and David Sanger, the piece walked through the technical complexities for non-experts (myself included) and explained key questions Iranians have failed to answer.

But this leads me to ask a different question: What about Israel’s bomb? Why isn’t that also part of the discussion?

In the flood of news stories about Iran’s nuclear intentions, I have yet to see mention of Israel’s nuclear arsenal (if I missed some mentions, they must have been rare).

Yet Israel’s bomb is obviously relevant to the controversy. The facts are deliberately murky, but Israel has had nuclear weapons for at least forty years, though it has never officially acknowledged their existence. The Israeli diplomatic approach has been called “nuclear ambiguity.”

I asked a friend who’s a national-security correspondent in Washington why news stories don’t mention Israel’s bomb. He shrugged off my question. “Because everybody knows that,” he said. Probably that’s true among policy elites and politicians, though I am not so sure this is widely known among average Americans.

In any case, if everyone knows Israel has the bomb, why not acknowledge this in the public debate?

I asked another friend (a well-informed journalist sympathetic to the Palestinian cause) why reporters don’t talk about the Israeli bomb. “Groupthink,” he said. “It’s almost as though Israel gets a bye from the media.”

The Iranians, he added, have raised the issue of the Israeli bomb many times in the past, but their complaints were generally ignored in the Western press. Iranian diplomats pointed out that Iran has signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty and submits to international inspections as the treaty requires (though Iran still hides stuff, as The New York Times account described). Israel has never signed the NPT and therefore does not submit to inspections.

My point is, the existence of Israel’s nuclear superiority is clearly a pivotal fact of life in the chaotic conflicts and occasional wars of the Middle East. It should not be left out.

Israel’s bomb might be an important factor in motivating Iran to seek a nuclear bomb of its own (though Iran denies that intention). It might also be the subtext for Netanyahu’s bellicose warnings and his occasional calls for bombing Iran’s nuclear facilities.

Bibi’s country would lose valuable leverage if it no longer had a nuclear monopoly in the region. Yet it might be considered a provocative act if Israel bluntly acknowledged its nuclear arsenal.

According to Wikipedia’s account, largely based on scholarly sources, Israel has seventy-five to 400 bombs (others say it is more like 100 to 200). It has never threatened to use them anywhere, though during the Yom Kippur War in 1973 Israeli leaders put eight of its nuclear-armed F-4’s on alert. Its adversaries no doubt got the word.

Other nations with nukes are Pakistan, India and North Korea as well as the United States, Russia, China, Britain and France. The United States is the only nation that has ever used atomic bombs on people in another nation—Japan at the close of World War II.

The Center for Public Integrity in Washington published an article in September 2014 by Douglas Birch and Jeffrey Smith that described the tangled history of Israel’s poorly kept secret. Some scholars, they wrote, complained that the lack of candor complicates efforts to confront Iran, since the US government cooperates in the pretense of not knowing.

Back in 2009, President Obama was asked about whether Israel possessed nuclear bombs. “With respect to nuclear weapons, you know, I don’t want to speculate,” the president said. In US terms, it is an official secret. The government can even prosecute people with security clearance if they tell the truth to the American public.

In a sense, Israel’s nukes have been like an “invisible hand” that warns hostile neighbors and keeps them from going too far. At the same time, however, Israel adopted an “option of pre-emption”—attacking neighbors like Iraq and Syria with non-nuclear bombs if they seemed to be developing nuclear arms.

Israel’s essential rationale was described by various sources cited by Wikipedia: “It cannot afford to lose a single war and thus must prevent them by maintaining deterrence including the option of preemption.”

That brings the story back around to Bibi. For roughly twenty years, Netanyahu has now and then called for bombing Iran to crumple its nuclear intentions. The Obama administration is attempting to accomplish the same result peacefully, through negotiations.

As Juan Cole has written in The Nation, that may be a false choice, because Israeli intelligence and a former defense minister have admitted that Iran has no nuclear weapons program. Cole explained: “Nuclear weapons are in any case defensive, not offensive, and Iran could not deploy a bomb (if it had one, which it doesn’t) against Israel because the Israelis would retaliate by wiping Iran off the map,”

In other words, even if Tehran were to acquire nukes, it could not use them against Israel. Both nations would become prisoners of the stalemate that ruled the United States and Soviet Union for forty years during the Cold War. The doctrine was known as Mutually Assured Destruction, or MAD for short..

That’s an unsatisfying result for the hawks in Israel but also the hawks in the United States. Remember Senator John McCain singing his light-hearted little ditty? “Bomb, Bomb, Bomb, Bomb, Bomb Iran.”

But isn’t talk-talk preferable to risking massive human slaughter and the destruction of nations? The war party in Washington evidently doesn’t think so. Inspired by Bibi, wannabe warriors are brutally trashing their American president. Their logic assumes the mullahs in Tehran are crazy fanatics and that crazy people are not deterred by the prospect of self-destruction.

If Obama’s negotiations fail or Republican meddling derails them, then Americans would face the ultimate question. Do we really want to go to war—again—in the Middle East? Israel might face a different question. Do Israeli citizens really want to bomb Iran if their American friends say, No, thanks—this time you’re on your own?

Maybe the Times reporters, Broad and Sanger, could do another article about the Israeli bomb that has been absent from the debate.

-t

Ronin Truth
03-22-2015, 07:35 AM
The Nation of Rothschild has a bunch.

enhanced_deficit
03-22-2015, 07:58 AM
One word, sacrosanct.


Currently, dDG's puppet masters won't allow him to discuss Israeli nuclear program even after Netanyahu spat on his face.

Obama Tells Haim Saban “Israel’s Security Is Sacrosanct”

(http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?450257-The-Neoconservative-Reference-List&p=5816015&viewfull=1#post5816015)http://www.globalresearch.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/obama.saban_.jpg (http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CAcQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.globalresearch.ca%2Fobama-and-kerry-drop-talk-of-palestinian-state-for-state-institutions-and-transition%2F5361120&ei=DPwNVdrsEtPAgwSr-ILwAw&bvm=bv.88528373,d.eXY&psig=AFQjCNHJRxURFSAP5_MxaXKMQMqcvcBZ3A&ust=1427065296517297)






Historic context:

Newly declassified documents reveal how U.S. agreed to Israel's nuclear program (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?458885-Newly-declassified-documents-reveal-how-U-S-agreed-to-Israel-s-nuclear-program&)

Zippyjuan
03-22-2015, 12:33 PM
DOES Israel actually have nuclear weapons? Or do they pretend to to deter attacks? They have never said one way or another and there has been no verified test of an Israeli nuclear device. There is a lot of speculation but no facts on their alleged program.

satchelmcqueen
03-22-2015, 12:56 PM
israel is good mkay.
iran
iran is bad...mkay.
bad guys dont need bums, um the good guys do mkay.

juleswin
03-22-2015, 01:13 PM
DOES Israel actually have nuclear weapons? Or do they pretend to to deter attacks? They have never said one way or another and there has been no verified test of an Israeli nuclear device. There is a lot of speculation but no facts on their alleged program.

Some people say (even though I don't believe it) that was what Saddam Hussein was doing i.e. pretending to have nuclear weapons in order to deter attacks outside attacks. But the west installed an inspection regime and sanction so sever that they did not find any weapons but still attacked Iraq. And wouldn't you know it, Netenyaho supported the war on Iraq.

Iran is saying they don't have nuclear weapons, they are not planning of having one but the country playing games on whether they have nuclear weapons or not is allowed to badger other countries into fighting/increasing sanctions on the country denying nuclear weapons.

Zippyjuan
03-22-2015, 01:22 PM
There is no question that Iran wants nuclear power. That is no secret- they get (or did prior to all the sanctions) most of their government revenues from exporting oil but their domestic demand has been rising and was nearing their total output- leaving little available to export and get money for. So they want other power sources for domestic energy to free up more oil for export purposes. The question is do they intend to go beyond that and become a nuclear power? They say "no" but the US says "yes". Historically, Iran has never been an aggressor nation. Wars they have fought, they have been forced into (like when Iraq attacked them). Would going nuclear change that? Other nuclear powers have been less aggressive after acquiring nuclear weapons- not more so.

juleswin
03-22-2015, 01:34 PM
There is no question that Iran wants nuclear power. That is no secret- they get (or did prior to all the sanctions) most of their government revenues from exporting oil but their domestic demand has been rising and was nearing their total output- leaving little available to export and get money for. So they want other power sources for domestic energy to free up more oil for export purposes. The question is do they intend to go beyond that and become a nuclear power? They say "no" but the US says "yes". Historically, Iran has never been an aggressor nation. Wars they have fought, they have been forced into (like when Iraq attacked them). Would going nuclear change that? Other nuclear powers have been less aggressive after acquiring nuclear weapons- not more so.

Not likely. Seeing how it did not change Israel, North Korea, Pakistan, China, India. Those countries did what they used to do in fact in the case of India and Pakistan, it create a more peaceful neighborhood. Why in the world do we believe it would be different for if Iran got the bomb?

69360
03-22-2015, 01:48 PM
Iran signed the non-proliferation treaty. Israel didn't. That's all anyone needs to know on the subject to draw a reasonable conclusion.

JK/SEA
03-22-2015, 01:55 PM
just to let you guys know...you are not supposed to talk about Israel's nuclear weapons that we gave them....

juleswin
03-22-2015, 01:56 PM
Iran signed the non-proliferation treaty. Israel didn't. That's all anyone needs to know on the subject to draw a reasonable conclusion.

I am sure there was no pressure whatsoever to sign it and even though they haven't violated the NPT, that hasn't stopped the western countries from levying strict economic sanctions on Iran. Also why is a country who is not a signatory to the NPT worried about whether a country is violating the treaty or not?

There is way more to the warmongering about Iran than just understand the NPT. I wonder if a country can un sign a treaty? and what would all those countries who see no problem with Israel not signing it do when Iran tries to get out of it? I am sure the treaty was not a life time treaty.

Zippyjuan
03-22-2015, 02:01 PM
Iran signed the non-proliferation treaty. Israel didn't. That's all anyone needs to know on the subject to draw a reasonable conclusion.

India and Pakistan never signed it either and have been more peaceful towards each other since going nuclear.

tangent4ronpaul
03-22-2015, 02:30 PM
There is no question that Iran wants nuclear power. That is no secret- they get (or did prior to all the sanctions) most of their government revenues from exporting oil but their domestic demand has been rising and was nearing their total output- leaving little available to export and get money for. So they want other power sources for domestic energy to free up more oil for export purposes. The question is do they intend to go beyond that and become a nuclear power? They say "no" but the US says "yes". Historically, Iran has never been an aggressor nation. Wars they have fought, they have been forced into (like when Iraq attacked them). Would going nuclear change that? Other nuclear powers have been less aggressive after acquiring nuclear weapons- not more so.

Actually, they are supposed to lack refinery capability and that would be the bottleneck. Though I am sure they want to sell more oil as they get things in trade for it, like weapons systems. Refinery capacity causes problems for everyone.

-t

twomp
03-22-2015, 02:39 PM
DOES Israel actually have nuclear weapons? Or do they pretend to to deter attacks? They have never said one way or another and there has been no verified test of an Israeli nuclear device. There is a lot of speculation but no facts on their alleged program.


The Negev Nuclear Research Center (Hebrew: קריה למחקר גרעיני – נגב‎) is an Israeli nuclear installation located in the Negev desert, about thirteen kilometers to the south-east of the city of Dimona. The purpose of Dimona is believed to be the manufacture of nuclear weapons.[1] Israel acknowledges the existence of the site, but refuses to disclose any information about its purpose in a policy known as nuclear ambiguity. Information about the facility remains highly classified.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negev_Nuclear_Research_Center

twomp
03-22-2015, 02:40 PM
double post

phill4paul
03-22-2015, 02:42 PM
DOES Israel actually have nuclear weapons? Or do they pretend to to deter attacks? They have never said one way or another and there has been no verified test of an Israeli nuclear device. There is a lot of speculation but no facts on their alleged program.

There is only one way to get to the middle of the tootsie pop. Sanctions and forced inspections. Now the question is...which politician is gonna suggest that?

specsaregood
03-22-2015, 02:50 PM
just to let you guys know...you are not supposed to talk about Israel's nuclear weapons that we gave them....

But we gave them to them by funneling through the British so technically it was the Brits that gave them the nukes and it was all before we signed the npt so its all good.

Zippyjuan
03-22-2015, 03:02 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negev_Nuclear_Research_Center

Thanks. It is BELIEVED to be a nuclear weapons plant. Which Israel will neither confirm nor deny.


but refuses to disclose any information about its purpose in a policy known as nuclear ambiguity.

They want people to at least THINK they may have nuclear weapons.

69360
03-22-2015, 04:33 PM
There is only one way to get to the middle of the tootsie pop. Sanctions and forced inspections. Now the question is...which politician is gonna suggest that?

Israel is not a treaty signatory. So UN NPT inspections are not possible.

Israel gets a pass from the UN on all sorts of other actions that would get any other nation sanctioned and nukes is no exception.

phill4paul
03-22-2015, 04:35 PM
Israel is not a treaty signatory. So UN NPT inspections are not possible.

Israel gets a pass from the UN on all sorts of other actions that would get any other nation sanctioned and nukes is no exception.

Of course.

paleocon1
03-22-2015, 05:00 PM
Odds are fair that israel has nukes planted in USA and European cities.

surf
03-22-2015, 06:31 PM
Atoms for Peace

(look it up if you aren't familiar)

enhanced_deficit
03-22-2015, 09:22 PM
DOES Israel actually have nuclear weapons? Or do they pretend to to deter attacks? They have never said one way or another and there has been no verified test of an Israeli nuclear device. There is a lot of speculation but no facts on their alleged program.

What is at this site, electric freedom generation program?

Breaking: Rockets fired over Isreali nuclear site Dimona (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?455409-Breaking-Rockets-fired-over-Isreali-nuclear-site-Dimona&)

pcosmar
03-23-2015, 07:12 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xq1-oFjuPeI

Zippyjuan
03-23-2015, 04:26 PM
What is at this site, electric freedom generation program?

Breaking: Rockets fired over Isreali nuclear site Dimona (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?455409-Breaking-Rockets-fired-over-Isreali-nuclear-site-Dimona&)

They have a nuclear reactor there- sure. But do they actually have any nuclear weapons there? Nobody knows.

donnay
03-23-2015, 05:12 PM
Israeli whistleblower Mordechai Vanunu (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/apr/19/mordechai-vanunu-suffering-israel) gave enough information to allow foreign sources to estimate Israel has 80 to 400 nuclear warheads.

In 2012, Jimmy Carter said in a Time (http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2104825,00.html) interview that Israel has 300 nukes due to intelligence reports he has read over the course of his lifetime.

Zippyjuan
03-23-2015, 05:18 PM
He has also said 150 in a more recent interview. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7420573.stm He doesn't know for certain either. Mordechai Vanunu is the only source for the information which has not been verified by anybody else.


Most experts estimate that Israel has between 100 and 200 nuclear warheads, largely based on information leaked to the Sunday Times newspaper in the 1980s by Mordechai Vanunu, a former worker at the country's Dimona nuclear reactor.

Natural Citizen
03-23-2015, 05:48 PM
But do they actually have any nuclear weapons there? Nobody knows.

Come on, Zip. Does a frog bump his ass on the rocks?

enhanced_deficit
03-24-2015, 07:56 AM
They have a nuclear reactor there- sure. But do they actually have any nuclear weapons there? Nobody knows.

Similar was case for Iraq's WMDs... until we invade and do on the premise checking, we'll never know for sure.

pcosmar
03-24-2015, 08:01 AM
Nobody knows.

Many people know. just few officials will say.

PaleoPaul
03-24-2015, 10:02 AM
I thought it was common knowledge that Israel had nukes.

Suzanimal
03-26-2015, 05:49 PM
From Lew Rockwell's FB page.



Lew Rockwell
3 hrs ·
The US finally admits that Israel has a massive nuclear weapons program. Until now, it has been extremely un-PC not to adhere to the “studied ambiguity” of Israeli policy, that is, never to confirm nor deny its WMD. The truth is long overdue, especially given all the neocon eyewash about Iran.
The general public has known the truth since 1986, when Mordechai Vanunu revealed it to the British press and the world. Note: I highly recommend The Samson Option: Israel’s Nuclear Arsenal and American Foreign Policy, by Seymour M. Hersh.



US Declassifies Document Revealing Israel's Nuclear Program


In a development that has largely been missed by mainstream media, the Pentagon early last month quietly declassified a Department of Defense top-secret document detailing Israel's nuclear program, a highly covert topic that Israel has never formally announced to avoid a regional nuclear arms race, and which the US until now has respected by remaining silent.

But by publishing the declassified document from 1987, the US reportedly breached the silent agreement to keep quiet on Israel's nuclear powers for the first time ever, detailing the nuclear program in great depth.

The timing of the revelation is highly suspect, given that it came as tensions spiraled out of control between Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu and US President Barack Obama ahead of Netanyahu's March 3 address in Congress, in which he warned against the dangers of Iran's nuclear program and how the deal being formed on that program leaves the Islamic regime with nuclear breakout capabilities.

Another highly suspicious aspect of the document is that while the Pentagon saw fit to declassify sections on Israel's sensitive nuclear program, it kept sections on Italy, France, West Germany and other NATO countries classified, with those sections blocked out in the document.

The 386-page report entitled "Critical Technological Assessment in Israel and NATO Nations" gives a detailed description of how Israel advanced its military technology and developed its nuclear infrastructure and research in the 1970s and 1980s.

Israel is "developing the kind of codes which will enable them to make hydrogen bombs. That is, codes which detail fission and fusion processes on a microscopic and macroscopic level," reveals the report, stating that in the 1980s Israelis were reaching the ability to create bombs considered a thousand times more powerful than atom bombs.

The revelation marks a first in which the US published in a document a description of how Israel attained hydrogen bombs.

The report also notes research laboratories in Israel "are equivalent to our Los Alamos, Lawrence Livermore and Oak Ridge National Laboratories," the key labs in developing America's nuclear arsenal.

Israel's nuclear infrastructure is "an almost exact parallel of the capability currently existing at our National Laboratories," it adds.

"As far as nuclear technology is concerned the Israelis are roughly where the U.S. was in the fission weapon field in about 1955 to 1960," the report reveals, noting a time frame just after America tested its first hydrogen bomb.

Institute for Defense Analysis, a federally funded agency operating under the Pentagon, penned the report back in 1987.

Aside from nuclear capabilities, the report revealed Israel at the time had "a totally integrated effort in systems development throughout the nation," with electronic combat all in one "integrated system, not separated systems for the Army, Navy and Air Force." It even acknowledged that in some cases, Israeli military technology "is more advanced than in the U.S."

...

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/193175#.VRSZU_nF9x1

ChiefJustice
03-26-2015, 07:22 PM
The ironic thing about the Israeli fear mongering of Iran, which is really a smoke screen for their treatment of the Palestinians, is that if any country in the world would be most likely to use a nuclear bomb it would be Israel. Im just saying they are the most likely not that it would happen.

The scary part? Neocons would still support Israel if they hypothetically nuked one of their enemies. They might even applaud it.

enhanced_deficit
03-26-2015, 08:04 PM
The ironic thing about the Israeli fear mongering of Iran, which is really a smoke screen for their treatment of the Palestinians, is that if any country in the world would be most likely to use a nuclear bomb it would be Israel.

Above statement is way too undiplomatic and blunt.
Israel is the only non racist, pro life democracy in the mideast and highly opposed to murdering innocent babies.






Related

Notorious Cal Tom:

Does Obama want Israel to commit suicide?
http://a57.foxnews.com/global.fncstatic.com/static/managed/img/FB/48/48/128x128-cal-thomas.jpg?ve=1&tl=1
By Cal Thomas
Published March 24, 2015
In 1982, during one of many visits to Israel, I had the opportunity to speak with Prime Minister Menachem Begin, who told me, "Israel needs friends." He added that in the end, his nation could not trust any nation with its fate and security. The protection of Israel, he said, was ultimately the responsibility of Israelis.
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2015/03/24/iran-nuclear-deal-does-obama-want-israel-to-commit-suicide/

brushfire
03-26-2015, 08:21 PM
The whiny sound of Bachmann's voice starts echoing in my head - Annnderson Annnnderson Annnnderson

Just remember, Iran is only a few months away.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4B8XVqBUmM