Rand Paul Is Right—Give The Kurds A State

[Virgil]

Sen. Rand Paul is right to call for an independent Kurdistan, and the arming of its forces, the Peshmerga. In doing so, he strikes a balance sorely needed in the GOP’s 2016 foreign-policy platform after years of imbalance.

The Bush administration’s subtly-stated justification for the Iraq War was to establish a vibrant, Muslim, western-style democracy in the Middle East. Such a development’s efforts in preserving Pax Americana can hardly be underestimated. An Arab democracy in the heart of the Muslim world would abide by the rule of law, uphold private property rights, foster free-thinking education, and enshrine the human rights of women and girls—all necessary ingredients to development and happiness dependent upon democracy, and woefully missing in the Middle East.


A vibrant Muslim democracy in the Middle East would also be a major blow to radical Islam, providing an example of modernity and wealth that an Obama-administration jobs program could never hope to accomplish. This would be the Muslim world’s ticket into the twenty-first century.

http://thefederalist.com/2015/03/12/rand-paul-is-right-give-the-kurds-a-state/#disqus_thread

-Virgil

[tod evans]

I don't believe this nation has any business dictating to other nations regardless of who couches the position.

[jmdrake]

Sen. Rand Paul is right to call for an independent Kurdistan, and the arming of its forces, the Peshmerga. In doing so, he strikes a balance sorely needed in the GOP’s 2016 foreign-policy platform after years of imbalance.

The Bush administration’s subtly-stated justification for the Iraq War was to establish a vibrant, Muslim, western-style democracy in the Middle East. Such a development’s efforts in preserving Pax Americana can hardly be underestimated. An Arab democracy in the heart of the Muslim world would abide by the rule of law, uphold private property rights, foster free-thinking education, and enshrine the human rights of women and girls—all necessary ingredients to development and happiness dependent upon democracy, and woefully missing in the Middle East.


A vibrant Muslim democracy in the Middle East would also be a major blow to radical Islam, providing an example of modernity and wealth that an Obama-administration jobs program could never hope to accomplish. This would be the Muslim world’s ticket into the twenty-first century.

http://thefederalist.com/2015/03/12/rand-paul-is-right-give-the-kurds-a-state/#disqus_thread

-Virgil

So....we should destroy the vibrant Muslim democracy in Turkey that is already part of NATO so that we can create a new Muslim democracy? Seriously? :rolleyes:

[orenbus]

So....we should destroy the vibrant Muslim democracy in Turkey that is already part of NATO so that we can create a new Muslim democracy? Seriously? :rolleyes:

I wouldn't say Turkey has a "vibrant" Muslim democracy, they have serious problems over there, in their government especially.

[The Gold Standard]

We should build vibrant democracies with American blood and treasure all over the world.

[orenbus]

We should build vibrant democracies with American blood and treasure all over the world.

https://c2.staticflickr.com/6/5044/5269558397_64406aeb94_z.jpg

[jmdrake]

I wouldn't say Turkey has a "vibrant" Muslim democracy, they have serious problems over there, in their government especially.

And we don't?

[orenbus]

And we don't?

Nope we do, but calling the Turkish democracy "vibrant" isn't really applicable.

[presence]

arming of its forces, the Peshmerga

http://gifsec.com/wp-content/uploads/GIF/2014/04/wut-gif.gif

http://i.imgur.com/rwBdr.gif

http://gunssavelives.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/wut.gif

[orenbus]

Sidenote: Anyone know if this is true, Turkey is the first country that is about to ban Minecraft and they don't let soldiers in the army watch Game of Thrones?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_cuL16P7uI
http://www.ign.com/articles/2015/03/10/is-turkey-about-to-ban-minecraft
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/game-of-thrones-banned-by-the-turkish-army-9854091.html

[jmdrake]

Nope we do, but calling the Turkish democracy "vibrant" isn't really applicable.

I would say it is vibrant as ours. They have a decent economy, women don't have to wear tents, there are peaceful transitions of power. Really, Turkey has too much going for it to consider breaking it up for some neocon Kurdistan dream.

[jmdrake]

Nothing undemocratic about that. If Pat Robertson had managed to get elected president do you have any doubt as whether there would be a whole lotta banning going on here?


Sidenote: Anyone know if this is true, Turkey is the first country that is about to ban Minecraft and they don't let soldiers in the army watch Game of Thrones?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_cuL16P7uI
http://www.ign.com/articles/2015/03/10/is-turkey-about-to-ban-minecraft
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/game-of-thrones-banned-by-the-turkish-army-9854091.html

[twomp]

Why now? If the Kurds are these awesome people who are so deserving of their own country, why is Senator Paul calling for them to have their own country now? Why hasn't he done this since 2010? Why didn't he say these things in 2013? Someone up top is telling their puppets to say these things and the puppets are doing what puppets do.

[orenbus]

I would say it is vibrant as ours. They have a decent economy, women don't have to wear tents, there are peaceful transitions of power. Really, Turkey has too much going for it to consider breaking it up for some neocon Kurdistan dream.

I agree with your main point and those others have made that as a rule we shouldn't be in the business of establishing a Kurdish country or any foreign countries for that matter, especially at a cost or potential cost. Although I'm not even sure if nation building is what is even being advocated here since it sounds like what Rand is saying (and I might be wrong) is that our role would be of being a mediator to facilitate some sort of agreement which the Turks would have to agree to if any of their land is going to be given to the Kurds. And this is assuming he is even talking about Turkish land at all, from what I've heard so far he describes land in Iraq and in Syria, not necessarily Turkey although the Turks would regardless have to be part of the conversation because they have obvious concerns the land would border theirs and because of their past history with the PKK.

Personally I'm not entirely sold on this general idea even still because some of the points you are making, however all I am saying is that Turkey isn't the beacon of democracy some may want us to believe it is and is still far of from being vibrant. Here are some examples;

Oct 10, 2014
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/afp/141022/turkey-arrests-woman-red-stilettos-koran-tweet
Turkey arrests woman for tweet of high heels on a Quran


http://conservativetribune.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Firefox_Screenshot_2014-10-25T16-16-31.084Z-470x425.png

A Turkish woman was arrested on suspicion of blasphemy and inciting religious hatred after allegedly stepping on the Quran and then posting the picture on Twitter, media reported on Wednesday.

The arrest came after Melih Gokcek, Ankara's controversial mayor from the ruling Islamic-rooted Justice and Development Party (AKP), launched a criminal complaint against the 38-year-old-woman, who uses the Twitter handle @kedibiti (cat lice).

The woman, who has over 5,000 followers and describes herself as "an atheist who respects only humans," allegedly shared a picture showing a pair of red high heels on a copy of the Quran, Dogan news agency reported.


Jan 23, 2015

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtV-V4Evq90

Jan 19, 2015

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiVn3-0F_EA

Dec 26, 2014

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AtZeu5IL0Y

Jan 31, 2015

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tbt8PjebWCo

Several websites have been blocked in Turkey, following court orders against sites that are considered insulting to Islam. Most recently, Facebook followed the court’s order by banning a number of them on its pages, so the social media networking site would avoid a possible nationwide ban. This follows protests across Turkey against the satirical French magazine Charlie Hebdo for printing a caricature of Prophet Mohammed.

[orenbus]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1RDRJJFdfQ

Mass brawl in Turkish parliament over controversial police bill
Ruling party and opposition lawmakers fight each other for the second time in a week as homeland security bill debate begins
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/20/mass-brawl-in-turkish-parliament-over-controverisal-police-bill


http://i.guim.co.uk/media/w-620/h--/q-95/cd9e373bdf912f710f9ee578d1e471c7da665bf6/651_0_1849_1109/1000.jpg
Lawmakers from the main opposition Republican People’s Party (CHP) and ruling AK Party (R) scuffle during a debate on a legislation to boost police powers, at the Turkish Parliament in Ankara.

The Turkish parliament descended into fresh chaos on Thursday with lawmakers exchanging punches for a second time over a controversial bill to boost police powers against protesters, local media reported.

Ruling party and opposition lawmakers engaged in fisticuffs while one MP fell down the stairs as parliament was about to begin a debate on the so-called homeland security bill, the private Dogan news agency reported.

The unruly scenes mirrored those seen in the parliament overnight on Tuesday, when five deputies were left injured - including two who suffered head injuries inflicted by a ceremonial gavel.


http://i.guim.co.uk/media/w-620/h--/q-95/b0af82b8db6c1eccbd39f9b5254e0dce358c2290/288_0_2092_1255/1000.jpg
Main opposition Republican People’s Party (CHP) and ruling AK Party (R) lawmakers scuffle during a debate on a legislation to boost police powers at the Turkish Parliament in Ankara.



Opposition parties, strongly opposed to the government-driven bill, earlier this week vowed to stop the draft text from coming to the parliament floor by resorting to delaying tactics such as presenting motions on unrelated subjects.

Before speeches on the bill began on Thursday, opposition parties voiced objections for more than three hours, the Hurriyet newspaper reported on its website.

Heated verbal exchanges between the warring sides quickly escalated into punches and kicks. Caught in the middle of the brawl, lawmaker Orhan Duzgun from the opposition CHP took a tumble down a few steps.

But Duzgun refused to see a doctor and said: “I am fine. I will stay here and keep on with the struggle,” according to Hurriyet.

Turkey’s opposition fears the bill, introduced by the ruling Justice and Development party (AKP) government, will effectively create a police state under President Recep Tayyip Erdogan.

[jmdrake]

You are putting up a years after an Isamic president took over. And, like I said, Pat Robertson with more power. Also the president is doing exactly what the majority wants which is the definition of a democracy. You're thinking consitutional republic.


I agree with your main point and those others have made that as a rule we shouldn't be in the business of establishing a Kurdish country or any foreign countries for that matter, especially at a cost or potential cost. Although I'm not even sure if nation building is what is even being advocated here since it sounds like what Rand is saying (and I might be wrong) is that our role would be of being a mediator to facilitate some sort of agreement which the Turks would have to agree to if any of their land is going to be given to the Kurds. And this is assuming he is even talking about Turkish land at all, from what I've heard so far he describes land in Iraq and in Syria, not necessarily Turkey although the Turks would regardless have to be part of the conversation because they have obvious concerns the land would border theirs and because of their past history with the PKK.

Personally I'm not entirely sold on this general idea even still because some of the points you are making, however all I am saying is that Turkey isn't the beacon of democracy some may want us to believe it is and is still far of from being vibrant. Here are some examples;

Oct 10, 2014
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/afp/141022/turkey-arrests-woman-red-stilettos-koran-tweet
Turkey arrests woman for tweet of high heels on a Quran



Jan 23, 2015

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtV-V4Evq90

Jan 19, 2015

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JiVn3-0F_EA

Dec 26, 2014

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AtZeu5IL0Y

Jan 31, 2015

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tbt8PjebWCo

[orenbus]

You are putting up a years after an Isamic president took over. And, like I said, Pat Robertson with more power. Also the president is doing exactly what the majority wants which is the definition of a democracy. You're thinking consitutional republic.

I tend to disagree and think that although it may have started as a parliamentary representative democracy as months go on it looks to be transforming into an authoritarian regime.

[Brian4Liberty]

Sen. Rand Paul is right to call for an independent Kurdistan, and the arming of its forces, the Peshmerga. In doing so, he strikes a balance sorely needed in the GOP’s 2016 foreign-policy platform after years of imbalance.

The Bush administration’s subtly-stated justification for the Iraq War was to establish a vibrant, Muslim, western-style democracy in the Middle East. Such a development’s efforts in preserving Pax Americana can hardly be underestimated. An Arab democracy in the heart of the Muslim world would abide by the rule of law, uphold private property rights, foster free-thinking education, and enshrine the human rights of women and girls—all necessary ingredients to development and happiness dependent upon democracy, and woefully missing in the Middle East.


A vibrant Muslim democracy in the Middle East would also be a major blow to radical Islam, providing an example of modernity and wealth that an Obama-administration jobs program could never hope to accomplish. This would be the Muslim world’s ticket into the twenty-first century.

http://thefederalist.com/2015/03/12/rand-paul-is-right-give-the-kurds-a-state/#disqus_thread

-Virgil

No, what we have today is just fine. The perfect balance of hegemony and chaos, supporting murder, and denying self-defense to common people. Do not change it. Do not challenge it. Do not come up with different ideas. New ideas are painful to every side and faction of the status quo.

[RabbitMan]

So....we should destroy the vibrant Muslim democracy in Turkey that is already part of NATO so that we can create a new Muslim democracy? Seriously? :rolleyes:

I am pretty sure his proposal said that he would like to make a deal so that Kurdistan would be recognized in northern Iraq and that bit of Syria that Assad doesn't really control anyway, in exchange for the Kurdish nation dropping any claim to Turkish land.

I am not crazy, right?

[RonPaulGeorge&Ringo]

I am pretty sure his proposal said that he would like to make a deal so that Kurdistan would be recognized in northern Iraq and that bit of Syria that Assad doesn't really control anyway, in exchange for the Kurdish nation dropping any claim to Turkish land.

I am not crazy, right?

Of you're crazy. The sane ones are the ones making asinine assertions without reading anything.

[RabbitMan]

Of you're crazy. The sane ones are the ones making asinine assertions without reading anything.

lol

Yeah, here is the passage in question:


I think they would fight like hell if we promised them a country. It’s a little easier to say than it is to actually make it happen, because in order to actually draw a new country you’d have to have the complicity of Turkey and probably Iraq a little bit as well. There really is no Syria to be complicit with, but there is just a little piece of Syria—Kobani and in there is predominantly Kurdish. I think if you did that and could get peace between the Kurds and the Turks, and then the Turks would actually fight if the Kurds would give up any claim to Turkish territory.

I dislike interventions as much as the next guy, but the policy Paul is advocating for is merely acting as a mediator for a peaceful secession. In a different light it is like helping the Austrian-Hungarian Empire peacefully break up when the whole country is in chaos due to ethnic mismatches and nationalism. If they had just let the Serbs go the first World War may not have occured. Yeah, it's a stretch, but you get the idea.

But don't forget that Iraq is a fictional construct of 19th century Europeans, and not a naturally born country. This is helping right a wrong that has been long overdue for correction, at a time when it benefits us and the whole world the most. And we don't need to commit any atrocities? Say it ain't so!

[idiom]

Lol its a good thing America doesn't imprison dissenters like the terrible country Turkey.

Its basically just secessionist policy. Why can't those evil regimes allow regions to peacefully secede like the USA does?

http://static.fjcdn.com/pictures/A+shit+storm+of+epic+proportions+an+online+petitio n+that_22350b_4234357.jpg


Why now? If the Kurds are these awesome people who are so deserving of their own country, why is Senator Paul calling for them to have their own country now? Why hasn't he done this since 2010? Why didn't he say these things in 2013? Someone up top is telling their puppets to say these things and the puppets are doing what puppets do.

It wasn't as blindingly opportune in 2010. The entire region has failed, its a great opportunity for anyone who can to land grab like a crazy person. If done with common sense and not too much dumbassery it could turn out like the transition of Crimea, or it could turn into Gaza.

[fr33]

Makes as much sense as any interventionist policy. In other words, it makes no sense and will fail like all the others.

[orenbus]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUPx20V5Gi0

[69360]

Sen. Rand Paul is right to call for an independent Kurdistan, and the arming of its forces, the Peshmerga. In doing so, he strikes a balance sorely needed in the GOP’s 2016 foreign-policy platform after years of imbalance.

The Bush administration’s subtly-stated justification for the Iraq War was to establish a vibrant, Muslim, western-style democracy in the Middle East. Such a development’s efforts in preserving Pax Americana can hardly be underestimated. An Arab democracy in the heart of the Muslim world would abide by the rule of law, uphold private property rights, foster free-thinking education, and enshrine the human rights of women and girls—all necessary ingredients to development and happiness dependent upon democracy, and woefully missing in the Middle East.


A vibrant Muslim democracy in the Middle East would also be a major blow to radical Islam, providing an example of modernity and wealth that an Obama-administration jobs program could never hope to accomplish. This would be the Muslim world’s ticket into the twenty-first century.

http://thefederalist.com/2015/03/12/rand-paul-is-right-give-the-kurds-a-state/#disqus_thread

-Virgil

I agree but care needs to be taken dangling the carrot in front of the Kurds a third time. If the US screws them over yet again they could turn on us.


I don't believe this nation has any business dictating to other nations regardless of who couches the position.

Allowing the Kurds to sell their crude and use the profits to buy US military gear isn't dictating. Neither is allowing their long time defecto semi autonomous region to become an internationally recognized nation. Heck even Turkey is coming around to the idea because they see Kurdistan as a valuable buffer between the chaos in Syria and Iraq and Turkey.

This is more about stop blocking the inevitable than dictating.

[tod evans]

Allowing the Kurds to sell their crude and use the profits to buy US military gear isn't dictating. Neither is allowing their long time defecto semi autonomous region to become an internationally recognized nation. Heck even Turkey is coming around to the idea because they see Kurdistan as a valuable buffer between the chaos in Syria and Iraq and Turkey.

This is more about stop blocking the inevitable than dictating.


From the link;


A strong case needs to be made for increasing funding for American air power, missile defense, and naval resources, while clearly distinguishing the military prowess necessary to maintain Pax Americana from nation-building.

Take from it what you will.......

[RabbitMan]

From the link;



Take from it what you will.......

I don't think many here would agree with the article persay, but what Rand is advocating is a different story. Most of all, it shows to the public that Rand isn't "running away from the world" like Ron was (:rolleyes:), but rather engaging with smart, bold ideas that are consistent with his extreme reluctance to use force. Toss in his "biggest tax cut in history" proposal and being a leading advocate of reforming the criminal justice system and at the forefront of the marijuana question, and you have a politician deliberately (and successfully) crafting an image of a daring reformer willing to challenge the status quo.

I like it.

[jmdrake]

Here's a brawl in the Japanese Parliament, Korean Parliament and Italian Parliament. Seriously what's your point?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KG-R3BmOtGg


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHMrgwAuJ_U


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2u7Osh0diM




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1RDRJJFdfQ

Mass brawl in Turkish parliament over controversial police bill
Ruling party and opposition lawmakers fight each other for the second time in a week as homeland security bill debate begins
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/feb/20/mass-brawl-in-turkish-parliament-over-controverisal-police-bill

[jmdrake]

I am pretty sure his proposal said that he would like to make a deal so that Kurdistan would be recognized in northern Iraq and that bit of Syria that Assad doesn't really control anyway, in exchange for the Kurdish nation dropping any claim to Turkish land.

I am not crazy, right?

I thought the deal included part of Turkey. Maybe not. Anyway Turkey is already a vibrant democracy. It's better than anything we've cobbled together in Iraq or are likely to cobble together in Kurdistan or what we cobbled together in Afghanistan. When is someone going to figure out that the U.S. cobbling together a democracy to try to fix the Middle East only makes things worse?

[jmdrake]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUPx20V5Gi0

Are you serious? If you are going to judge how vibrant a democracy is by whether on not they have riots then there's never been a vibrant democracy. Hello? We just had violent riots a few months ago here in the USA.

[jmdrake]

I tend to disagree and think that although it may have started as a parliamentary representative democracy as months go on it looks to be transforming into an authoritarian regime.

No more authoritarian than the USA is looking these days.

[orenbus]

No more authoritarian than the USA is looking these days.


I thought the deal included part of Turkey. Maybe not. Anyway Turkey is already a vibrant democracy.

You are making a false comparison between two very different countries, and comparing situations without considering context. By a number of indices Turkey has slid from full democracy to flawed democracy to hybrid regime and is now moving towards authoritarian, this isn't a supposition descriptor that one can make "no more authoritarian than the USA", but based in reality. I'm not saying this about you, but in general to assume that a democracy cannot transform to an authoritarian state would be naive at best. If you have no skin in the game, I'd suggest doing more research to understand the context of what's happening in Turkey and not just consider reactionary opinion based on assumption.

[robert68]

..

[jmdrake]

You are making a false comparison between two very different countries, and comparing situations without considering context. By a number of indices Turkey has slid from full democracy to flawed democracy to hybrid regime and is now moving towards authoritarian, this isn't a supposition descriptor that one can make "no more authoritarian than the USA", but based in reality. I'm not saying this about you, but in general to assume that a democracy cannot transform to an authoritarian state would be naive at best. If you have no skin in the game, I'd suggest doing more research to understand the context of what's happening in Turkey and not just consider reactionary opinion based on assumption.

Let me know when elections get cancelled in Turkey okay? Meanwhile we have black sites where U.S. civilians have been snatched and held without trial. (Chicago). We have kill lists where American citizens have been killed without trial. We have a government that has sold automatic weapons to Mexican drug lords and supported Al Qaeda. And your counter to this is that Turkey has fist fights in parliament, just like Japan, Italy and South Korea? Sorry but that's weak. But let's say you're right. That still doesn't mean that any Kurdistan democracy will be any more vibrant.

[Krugminator2]

No more authoritarian than the USA is looking these days.

Economic freedom is the best measure of freedom. http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking

United States #12
Turkey #70

The United States has slipped from 3 to 12 in the past 15 years. But Turkey is one of the least free countries on the planet.