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ProBlue33
12-04-2007, 10:00 AM
I have been thinking about this for a while and decided to write some thoughts out on it.

For those of you who don't believe in God this might be hard to accept.

Throughout history God has had a purpose for this planet, sometimes with all the suffering and injustices that has been hard for us to see.

During different times God has used certain rulers to advance his purpose or fulfill bible prophesy, irregardless if they believed in him or served him in the proper way, God used those certain people. Perhaps not for their entire lifetime but while they were in this "mode" they had a certain level of protection, to fulfill their roles.
When it was finished God's protection left them, they may have continued to live for many years or died quite soon after.

Examples in history

King David (Isreal)
Nebuchadnezzar (Babylon)
Cyrus the Great (Medio Persian Empire)
Alexander The Great(Greece)

All these world rulers had a role to play that touched on God's purposes, if only it was to just to fulfill bible prophesy, when they were in that "Zone" of work unknown to them they had a measure of protection other world leaders would
never see, and victories were a sure thing. Notice the different countries and empires used.

Is it America's turn? And really the first turn in American history?
So the point is, does this apply to Ron Paul, I really don't know???

But if it does then the following applies:

-He can't be defeated.
-All attempts to kill him in the short term can not succede.
-Many people will be in utter shock when he wins.
-Grassroots efforts themselves might be the vehicle that God uses to bypass other area's of Satan's sphere of control. You know that if God wants it, Satan will fight it, and lose.
(Havn't you ever wondered why this whole thing seems self-propelled by the grassroots with amazing results, and forces are trying really hard to fight it, but aren't succeding)
-God may want to fix certain specific injustices sooner than later.
-When his job from God's perspective is done, he could pass from the scene.

The "IF" in this is very interesting and we can only wait and watch. This is why watching this whole thing is so addictive. Politics is usually really boring, but this time it isn't and there is a reason for that.

Suzu
12-04-2007, 10:11 AM
God wants to fix injustices? Wow, that's news to me.

ProBlue33
12-04-2007, 10:40 AM
Yes you might be suprized, how he has done it in the past, how he doing presently, and how he will do it in the future. Humans tend look at things from a perspective that is derived from our short life span.

rooteroa
12-04-2007, 10:42 AM
Hilarious.

Mark
12-05-2007, 08:02 AM
Great post.

I know someone who knows what cyanide smells like. God still wanted them here apparently. Man cannot destroy what The Most High God desires.

BillyDkid
12-05-2007, 08:11 AM
God wants to fix injustices? Wow, that's news to me.Same here. I haven't noticed any particular efforts by God in regard to the injustice thing, ever, throughout history. If there is a God - and I'm not saying there is or there isn't - I believe as JFK said, essentially, we are God's hands on earth.

scubasteve01
12-05-2007, 08:19 AM
God is a non-interventionist.

hawkeyenick
12-05-2007, 08:38 AM
God created a broken world, why would he want to fix it?

Remember, he's perfect, he gets everything right the first time.

FreeTraveler
12-05-2007, 08:42 AM
God helps him who helps himself.

CelestialRender
12-05-2007, 08:46 AM
God's only requirement (in my -- admittedly strange -- way of thinking) is that History make a good story.

Luckily, this whole thing does.

hambone1982
12-05-2007, 08:53 AM
(Havn't you ever wondered why this whole thing seems self-propelled by the grassroots with amazing results, and forces are trying really hard to fight it, but aren't succeding)

Everyday.

hambone1982
12-05-2007, 08:55 AM
God is a non-interventionist.

Amen - and I believe there is lots of good biblical data to back up that statement.

(Free Will for man being the most obvious).

Mark
12-05-2007, 08:56 AM
Amazing how so many who don't even know there is a God, knows what He does.

Almighty God does more to stop Evil in this world than you will EVER know in this life.

I know. I am an instrument of Him. Everyone WILL know at the appointed time.

Man from La Mancha
12-05-2007, 09:00 AM
Maybe only the pure of heart will pass thru and be protected?
http://www.neverendingstory.com/images/Image088.jpg

wecandoit
12-05-2007, 09:09 AM
I have been thinking about this for a while and decided to write some thoughts out on it.

For those of you who don't believe in God this might be hard to accept.

Throughout history God has had a purpose for this planet, sometimes with all the suffering and injustices that has been hard for us to see.

During different times God has used certain rulers to advance his purpose or fulfill bible prophesy, irregardless if they believed in him or served him in the proper way, God used those certain people. Perhaps not for their entire lifetime but while they were in this "mode" they had a certain level of protection, to fulfill their roles.
When it was finished God's protection left them, they may have continued to live for many years or died quite soon after.

Examples in history

King David (Isreal)
Nebuchadnezzar (Babylon)
Cyrus the Great (Medio Persian Empire)
Alexander The Great(Greece)

All these world rulers had a role to play that touched on God's purposes, if only it was to just to fulfill bible prophesy, well they were in that "Zone" of work unknown to them they had a measure of protection other world leaders would
never see, and victories were a sure thing. Notice the different countries and empires used.

Is it America's turn? And really the first turn in American history?
So the point is, does this apply to Ron Paul, I really don't know???

But if it does then the following applies:

-He can't be defeated.
-All attempts to kill him in the short term can not succede.
-Many people will be in utter shock when he wins.
-Grassroots efforts themselves might be the vehicle that God uses to bypass other area's of Satan's sphere of control. You know that if God wants it, Satan will fight it, and lose.
(Havn't you ever wondered why this whole thing seems self-propelled by the grassroots with amazing results, and forces are trying really hard to fight it, but aren't succeding)
-God may want to fix certain specific injustices sooner than later.
-When his job from God's perspective is done, he could pass from the scene.

The "IF" in this is very interesting and we can only wait and watch. This is why watching this whole thing is so addictive. Politics is usually really boring, but this time it isn't and there is a reason for that.


Good post and I totally agree. Anything is possible with God on your side, ANYTHING.

The logic, means, motives, timing and methods cannot be easily understood by mortals, but if God wants it done, there is no obstacle big enough to stop it.

Something contuing to succeed, when by all rights it should not, is indeed what appears to be happening in Paul's campaign, I would not rule out divine intervention.

Ridiculous
12-05-2007, 09:15 AM
God is a non-interventionist.

QFT

+1

Richie
12-05-2007, 09:30 AM
Great essay. There's no doubt in my mind that Dr. Paul is an instrument of God. His victories in Congress (representing a district that relies on the government) prove that to me. There's one point I would like to add - it might be part of God's plan for Dr. Paul to lose. Think about it - he's already won! He created a movement and it's spreading like a wildfire.

MadOdorMachine
12-05-2007, 09:49 AM
In the same light that God has allowed righteous leaders to obtain a leadership position, he has also allowed unrighteous leaders. If you've read the Bible particularly the end-time prophesies found in Daniel and Revelations you know what the end result is. If you look at things like the NAU, National I.D. card, RFID chips, UN, WTO, NAFTA, and the situation in the middle east, it should be blindingly obvious that the time for Jesus' return is very, very close. All of these things must come to pass.

If it is God's will for Ron Paul to win, he will win. God allowed President George W. Bush to be elected and he allowed 911 and the Iraq War to occur. I believe this was a major warning to our country (along with Katrina) to turn from our sinful ways and return to him. Hopefully if we are redeemed in the eyes of God, our country will be spared some of the terrible tribulations that will occurr until the day of judgement. I will say this though, Jesus had a very faithful following who probably weren't all that different from us grassroot supporters.

Proemio
12-05-2007, 09:49 AM
I have been thinking about this for a while and decided to write some thoughts out on it....

FWIW, I came to pretty much the same conclusion without considering the God angle; something I simply can't wrap my mind around. Doesn't mean I'm an atheist - that cult gives me the creeps - but rather an I-have-no-clueist, and perfectly content that way.

Whatever. Everything you conclude, also works perfectly well from a simple common sense approach. If tyranny were ever to prevail irreversibly, 'life' (for lack of a better word) would cease. But the same would be true if 'good' would irreversibly triumph. The two poles are stuck, in a finally not so bad way... The example you list would also fit with that idea of fundamental inevitability - it was time.

Whether this is it, who knows. I was not expecting it so soon, but expect it I certainly did (on the record). What I must disagree with, is the idea that "we can only wait and watch" - that clearly won't do, God or not...

leonster
12-05-2007, 11:14 AM
If it is God's will for Ron Paul to win, he will win. God allowed President George W. Bush to be elected and he allowed 911 and the Iraq War to occur. I believe this was a major warning to our country (along with Katrina) to turn from our sinful ways and return to him.

I've had similar thoughts before... I don't know, of course, no one can know... they were just thoughts...

...but I think it is POSSIBLE that there is a bigger plan at work--that Bush's election and re-election... and enactment of all kinds of stuff that is, let's face it, not the kind of stuff God would be cheering on... and Bush's LOW approval right now...

Well, it's POSSIBLE that the purpose of that is to wake people up, when they otherwise would not have been woken up.

Who knows... it's possible Bush really is a Christian at heart, being guided to do things for this purpose, to "take one for the team" (unaware of his role). This isn't just an American thing, potentially... we know people around the world have been inspired by Ron Paul, and if he actually wins, it's POSSIBLE to have an explosion of liberty in MANY countries around the world, by our good example (not by force of arms).

I know there have been things in my life that I NEVER would have thought... immoral things, even... that a couple years later, I can look back and see, without A I wouldn't have come to B, and without B I wouldn't have been led to this place where I can find God...



But really... who knows. :) Not outside the realm of possibility, though... for me, anyways.

DJ RP
12-05-2007, 11:24 AM
God is a non-interventionist.

Either god does not exist or this is the truth.

risiusj
12-05-2007, 11:26 AM
God grants us free will. If he didn't it'd be like he was playing video games while using all the cheat codes.

voytechs
12-05-2007, 11:31 AM
Good thoughts. I've been thinking and praying for same thing.

http://www.prayer4paul.com/

Revolution9
12-05-2007, 11:32 AM
God wants to fix injustices? Wow, that's news to me.

If the Original Source is viewed as anthropomorphic I can see the reasoning of the question and the follow-up reaction. However in this case i would tend to ascribe a mass concsiousness as bringing forth an individual right for the time and capable of expressing into the real world dynamic the hope of those many minds, silent to the world but loud to the ethers. This world seems to be a school where the lessons taught are how to deal with and disengage from mind parasites.

Best
Randy

RoyalShock
12-05-2007, 11:36 AM
God is a non-interventionist.

If you don't believe in God, then don't bother addressing this reply.

But if you do, please explain His intervention in the plight of the Israelites.

Then explain why He (Christ) appeared to Saul on the road to Damascus.

I am a firm believer in free will and cringe whenever people recite cliches like "it was/wasn't meant to be" or "it was his/her time to go". But God clearly intervenes at his discretion and when his will needs to be imposed.

Revolution9
12-05-2007, 11:36 AM
Either god does not exist or this is the truth.

What is IT that sustains the motions of the heavens in their course...

Randy

Lexx78
12-05-2007, 11:46 AM
I liked the piece.

God exists in the hearts of good and honest people.

I think god isn't about whether there is a higher being or not, we might see that after this life (if we live well).

but the search for the spark of god inside ourselves that allows us to have moral values, emotions and can speak free about that is more important.

disciple
12-05-2007, 11:48 AM
"..Andrew replied: "But how is that to be understood which God said to Moses, that he will have mercy on whom he wills to have mercy and will harden whom he wills to harden." Jesus answered: "God says this in order that man may not believe that he is saved by his own virtue, but may perceive that life and the mercy of God have been granted him by God of his bounty. And he says it in order that men may shun the opinion that there be other gods than he.

If, therefore, he hardened Pharaoh he did it because he had afflicted our people and essayed to bring it to nought by destroying all the male children in Israel: whereby Moses was near to losing his life. Accordingly, I say to you truly, that predestination has for its foundation the Law of God and human free will. Yes, and even if God could save the whole world so that none should perish he would not will to do so lest thus he should deprive man of freedom, which he preserves to him in order to do despite to Satan, in order that this [lump of ] clay, scorned of the spirit, even though it shall sin as the spirit did, may have power to repent and go to dwell in that place whence the spirit was cast out. Our God wills, I say, to pursue with his mercy man's free will, and wills not to forsake the creature with his omnipotence. And so on the day of judgment none will be able to make any excuse for their sins, seeing that it will then be manifest to them how much God has done for their conversion, and how often he has called them to repentance.."

Jesus of Nazareth

rice_classic
12-05-2007, 11:52 AM
God wants people to realize that God will not help humans in matters where they can help themselves.

God will not help Ron. Ron will help Ron, we will help Ron, the message will help Ron and finally the American People will LEARN to help themselves. No one will provide for us but ourselves, the sooner we realize this the more prosperous we will be, both individually and as a people.

God isn't going to get anyone elected, God isn't going to fight for you. We are the ones in the here and now, we are the ones with the power.

God Provided us with what we have now, with the situation we are in and with the tools well enough to fight it and the decisions are up to us. If we are waiting for Divine Intervention, if we are waiting for God to fight our battle for us, we will be waiting ourselves into a quiet oblivion.

God is all that is and all that is not, God is the past, the present and future. God has already seen this election, this battle, this timeline. It has all long ago been created but we are just now living it, realizing it and making it our own experience. God is not part of the equation. If we do not take action with our own hands we will fail as history has proven that those who do take action with their own hands have always been the victor.

disciple
12-05-2007, 12:04 PM
God is testing the people as who will stand up for humanity and for truth and justice, and who will follow the path of lies and oppression. The wheat and the chaff, the lambs and the goats are being separated as we speak before the day harvest. But He will intervene in due time and I suspect it will be soon.

ProBlue33
12-05-2007, 12:10 PM
God will not help Ron. Ron will help Ron, we will help Ron, the message will help Ron and finally the American People will LEARN to help themselves. No one will provide for us but ourselves, the sooner we realize this the more prosperous we will be, both individually and as a people.

Perhaps you missed this part of the comments

"-Grassroots efforts themselves might be the vehicle that God uses to bypass other area's of Satan's sphere of control. You know that if God wants it, Satan will fight it, and lose.
(Havn't you ever wondered why this whole thing seems self-propelled by the grassroots with amazing results, and forces are trying really hard to fight it, but aren't succeding)"


One thing is for sure God has picked his spots very carefully over the eons as to when he will influence things. At times when WE think he should have intervened he hasn't, and when WE think he shouldn't he does.
This is because of Satan who never questioned Gods absolute power but rather the way he does things, and this has forced some very unpleasant things on humanity.

A Ron Paul Presidency could change a great deal and quickly too, my point is God could be using this junction in history to advance his purpose in stealth mode, for those not in the know.
Again this advancement would be challanged at the highest levels, as we have seen, and will continue to see.

hawkeyenick
12-05-2007, 12:13 PM
What is IT that sustains the motions of the heavens in their course...

Randy

It's called gravity..

I have a better question for you? This is one galaxy, EVERY SINGLE PIXEL OF LIGHT IS A STAR, it has millions of stars and planets that go with each star

http://www.spacetelescope.org/images/publicationjpg/heic0710a.jpg

We can see tens of thousands of galaxies as they were hundreds of millions of years ago right now, this is just one


Look at that and tell me that we're special...sorry, but we're not

Kingfisher
12-05-2007, 12:31 PM
I cant say for sure God is with Ron Paul. But if He is he will win no matter what. In spite of what the intellectuals that know nothing about say. By the way God created a perfect world. Man screwed it up, and continues to do so.

hawkeyenick
12-05-2007, 12:32 PM
I cant say for sure God is with Ron Paul. But if He is he will win no matter what. In spite of what the intellectuals that know nothing about say. By the way God created a perfect world. Man screwed it up, and continues to do so.

That means god created man imperfect...make up your mind.

What you just said was that god created us imperfect, and is now punished us for his mistakes.

risiusj
12-05-2007, 12:34 PM
That means god created man imperfect...make up your mind.

What you just said was that god created us imperfect, and is now punished us for his mistakes.

Actually the argument is that God created a perfect world and put us in it with the ability of free will. God basically said, here's all this cool stuff, but don't go do this bad stuff. But we did bad stuff.

AlexMerced
12-05-2007, 12:40 PM
I'm not spirtual, but man, I wouldn't be surprised, I tend to have some very bizzarre luck

disciple
12-05-2007, 12:44 PM
>>A Ron Paul Presidency could change a great deal and quickly too, my point is God could be using this junction in history to advance his purpose in stealth mode, for those not in the know.>>


To use Jesus' words:"Not a leaf stirreth without the will of God"; so yes, I believe that divine providence is forcing Ron Paul into the limelight in the midst of incredible odds and determined enemies. And clearly Ron Paul is now a major player. And so whether Ron Paul wins the presidency or not, and whether the presidencial elections shall take place at all, the fact remains that Ron Paul has risen to the occasion, knowing full well that his very life may be in jeopardy, while thousands of dedicated supporters are standing by him till the very end, sacrificing times and money, and maybe even willing to give their very lives to protect this revolution.

This is a major phenomenon and a certain sign that something big is going to take place. The good news, and I do not pretend to know the future -although I know of a great secret- is that it is us who will win in the end, along with every human being on this face of this earth who stood for peace, truth, and justice against unjust wars, tyranny, and lies.

So yes we can cheer this revolution no matter what the immediate outcome.

jesshwarren
12-05-2007, 01:00 PM
I was told! It's in the BIBLE. Prophesy that is to yet be fulfilled.

There will be a big war in the Middle East. It will be a HUGE war. It will be the worst war yet. That’s what I am told. Russia will be involved.

According to prophesy America sets out off this big war. I was told the only way this could happen is if a president like Ron Paul is in office.

disciple
12-05-2007, 01:03 PM
>>We can see tens of thousands of galaxies as they were hundreds of millions of years ago right now, this is just one


Look at that and tell me that we're special...sorry, but we're not>>.

We are indeed insignificant; and this immense universe is a testimony to the greatness of an infinite God and the lowliness of a finite man.Still, God did create this universe and all that is for the sake of man.

We are not however all the same: some of us will stand by truth, peace, and justice, while others will not. And this will make all the difference as to whether we become allies with God, the author of truth and justice, or we become His enemies by corrupting and destroying humanity and His creations.

disciple
12-05-2007, 01:07 PM
I was told! It's in the BIBLE. Prophesy that is to yet be fulfilled.

There will be a big war in the Middle East. It will be a HUGE war. It will be the worst war yet. That’s what I am told. Russia will be involved.

According to prophesy America sets out off this big war. I was told the only way this could happen is if a president like Ron Paul is in office.

If you really need to know what the near future holds, check out the Fifth Vision of Ezra, and the "Apocalypse of Weeks" in the First Book of Enoch.

RonPaulVolunteer
12-05-2007, 01:08 PM
Great post.

I know someone who knows what cyanide smells like. God still wanted them here apparently. Man cannot destroy what The Most High God desires.

Cyanide smells like almonds.

disciple
12-05-2007, 01:14 PM
No, it won't be a Ron Paul presidency that will lead to such scenario, and I know what you are shooting at. The end- times scenario or rather the approaching "Day of the Lord" was set in motion by the election of Bush Jr.in the year 2000.

Just keep your eyes open for the arrival of the two witnesses, Enoch and Elijah.

Voluntaryist
12-05-2007, 01:15 PM
God helps him who helps himself.

Thats not Biblical. According to the Bible, God helps those who give up all their trust and responsibility and love to him, and nobody else.

speciallyblend
12-05-2007, 01:15 PM
Great post and i think anyone who questions or doesnt believe should keep any sarcasm to themselves. wrong or right ,he is watching;) you wouldnt want to be wrong.

Though i believe in God(Higher Being),i have lost faith in organized religions..

I'm a Ron Paul Republican, hopefully i didnt sound sarcastic or overbearing

I'm sure many judgements will come from what i just said,but ill just assume they are all wrong;)

Voluntaryist
12-05-2007, 01:15 PM
Cyanide smells like almonds.

Burning almonds, to be precise.

Voluntaryist
12-05-2007, 01:18 PM
Actually the argument is that God created a perfect world and put us in it with the ability of free will. God basically said, here's all this cool stuff, but don't go do this bad stuff. But we did bad stuff.

The concept of "bad" could not have existed without Gods endorsement.

Where can evil come from if not from the creator of everything? And if evil did indeed not come from God, then he isnt as grand of a creator as he claims.

Besides, God declares multiple times in the Bible that he creates evil and calamity and that all bad things happen because he wills them to.

Original_Intent
12-05-2007, 01:21 PM
God wants to fix injustices? Wow, that's news to me.

Agree.

I think God is watching to see what we do to fix injustices.

speciallyblend
12-05-2007, 01:22 PM
Agree.

I think God is watching to see what we do to fix injustices.

+1

disciple
12-05-2007, 01:24 PM
The concept of "bad" could not have existed without Gods endorsement.

Where can evil come from if not from the creator of everything? And if evil did indeed not come from God, then he isnt as grand of a creator as he claims.

Besides, God declares multiple times in the Bible that he creates evil and calamity and that all bad things happen because he wills them to.


On the nature of sin:


.." Verily, verily, I say to you, that even as the child errs which causes its shoes to be made by the measure of a giant, even so errs he who would subject God to the law, as he himself as man is subject to the law. When, therefore, you shall believe that only to be sin which God wills not, you will find the truth, even as I have told you. Wherefore, because God is not composite nor changeable, so also is he unable to will and not will a single thing; for so would he have contradiction in himself, and consequently pain, and would not be infinitely blessed."

Philip answered: 'But how is that saying of the prophet Amos to be understood, that "there is not evil in the city that God has not done?" Jesus answered: 'Now here see, Philip, how great is the danger of resting in the letter, as do the Pharisees, who have invented for themselves the "predestination of God in the elect," in such wise that they come to say in fact that God is unrighteous, a deceiver and a liar and a hater of judgment (which shall fall upon them).

Wherefore I say that here Amos the prophet of God speaks of the evil which the world calls evil: for if he had used the language of the righteous he would not have been understood by the world. For all tribulations are good, either for that they purge the evil that we have done, or are good because they restrain us from doing evil, or are good because they make man to know the condition of this life, in order that we may love and long for life eternal. Accordingly, had the prophet Amos said: "There is no good in the city but what God has wrought it," he had given occasion for despair to the afflicted, as they beheld themselves in tribulation and sinners living in prosperity. And, what is worse, many, believing Satan to have such sovereignty over man, would have feared Satan and done him service, so as not to suffer tribulation. Amos therefore did as does the Roman interpreter, who considers not his words [as one] speaking in the presence of the high-priest, but consider the will and the business of the Jew that knows not to speak the Hebrew tongue..."

Jesus of Nazareth

Rob
12-05-2007, 01:34 PM
Thats not Biblical. According to the Bible, God helps those who give up all their trust and responsibility and love to him, and nobody else.

He's right about that. The New Testament and Old Testament make that abundantly clear.

Rob
12-05-2007, 01:38 PM
The concept of "bad" could not have existed without Gods endorsement.

Where can evil come from if not from the creator of everything? And if evil did indeed not come from God, then he isnt as grand of a creator as he claims.

Besides, God declares multiple times in the Bible that he creates evil and calamity and that all bad things happen because he wills them to.

Most Christian faiths describe evil as "the absence of God". While it is true He is omnipresent, scholars assume that he deliberately removes himself from certain things so that free will may exist. Free will can thus lead to "evil", without contradicting the existence of God.

Voluntaryist
12-05-2007, 01:51 PM
Most Christian faiths describe evil as "the absence of God".

They should try quoting the bible more and making up their own interpretations less.


While it is true He is omnipresent, scholars assume that he deliberately removes himself from certain things so that free will may exist. Free will can thus lead to "evil", without contradicting the existence of God.

Wrong. And allow me to QUOTE THE BIBLE to refute you, something that you have not done at all in your apologizing as of yet:

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. —Isaiah 45:7

Thats just for starters. I got plenty more "I create evil" bible quotes available. But this one from Isaiah is the standard shot across the bow.

Voluntaryist
12-05-2007, 01:53 PM
On the nature of sin:


.." Verily, verily, I say to you, that even as the child errs which causes its shoes to be made by the measure of a giant, even so errs he who would subject God to the law, as he himself as man is subject to the law. When, therefore, you shall believe that only to be sin which God wills not, you will find the truth, even as I have told you. Wherefore, because God is not composite nor changeable, so also is he unable to will and not will a single thing; for so would he have contradiction in himself, and consequently pain, and would not be infinitely blessed."

Philip answered: 'But how is that saying of the prophet Amos to be understood, that "there is not evil in the city that God has not done?" Jesus answered: 'Now here see, Philip, how great is the danger of resting in the letter, as do the Pharisees, who have invented for themselves the "predestination of God in the elect," in such wise that they come to say in fact that God is unrighteous, a deceiver and a liar and a hater of judgment (which shall fall upon them).

Wherefore I say that here Amos the prophet of God speaks of the evil which the world calls evil: for if he had used the language of the righteous he would not have been understood by the world. For all tribulations are good, either for that they purge the evil that we have done, or are good because they restrain us from doing evil, or are good because they make man to know the condition of this life, in order that we may love and long for life eternal. Accordingly, had the prophet Amos said: "There is no good in the city but what God has wrought it," he had given occasion for despair to the afflicted, as they beheld themselves in tribulation and sinners living in prosperity. And, what is worse, many, believing Satan to have such sovereignty over man, would have feared Satan and done him service, so as not to suffer tribulation. Amos therefore did as does the Roman interpreter, who considers not his words [as one] speaking in the presence of the high-priest, but consider the will and the business of the Jew that knows not to speak the Hebrew tongue..."

Jesus of Nazareth

Got book, chapter, and verse for where in the bible you found this? Cause it looks like youre attributing this to Jesus himself, but I dont recall Jesus saying most of these things in the Bible.

Todd
12-05-2007, 01:54 PM
God is a non-interventionist.

Give us and example please.

Rob
12-05-2007, 01:57 PM
They should try quoting the bible more and making up their own interpretations less.



Wrong. And allow me to QUOTE THE BIBLE to refute you, something that you have not done at all in your apologizing as of yet:

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. —Isaiah 45:7

Thats just for starters. I got plenty more "I create evil" bible quotes available. But this one from Isaiah is the standard shot across the bow.

Ummm...did you actually read what I said? I said "Most Christian faiths" I wasn't talking about what the Scripture says. I'm not sure how you think you can refute a statement about how many people believe something by arguing they shouldn't believe in it. What you did was like arguing most Americans didn't vote for Bush in the last election because he makes bad decisions and is unfit for the presidency.

Voluntaryist
12-05-2007, 02:02 PM
Ummm...did you actually read what I said? I said "Most Christian faiths" I wasn't talking about what the Scripture says.

Yes, I am fully aware of that. That is why I said that Christian faiths should spend more time reading their Bibles and less time making up what they think it says. In other words, I was directly responding to your claim by pointing out that most Christian faiths are not aligned with Biblical teachings.


I'm not sure how you think you can refute a statement about how many people believe something by arguing they shouldn't believe in it.

Its another way of throwing the "argumentum ad populum" red flag. Your claim that "most christians believe" was your attempt to refute my claim that the Bible declares in no uncertain terms that God creates evil.

So, my response to your response was simply a way to point out that what you said had nothing to do with the truth content of my original claim that God does certainly create evil.

Anyway, here is where we now are: I have supported my assertion that Gods word declares that He creates evil. And your claim that "most Christians believe" has no bearing on the truth of my statement. In fact, your argumentum ad populum was totally irrelevant to the issue at hand: whether or not God creates evil.

Voluntaryist
12-05-2007, 02:04 PM
Give us and example please.

Well, God didnt intervene when those kids got molested in all those churches. :rolleyes:

Mark
12-05-2007, 02:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RonPaulVolunteer http://www.ronpaulforums.com/gfx_RedWhiteBlue/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?p=535378#post535378)
Cyanide smells like almonds.


Burning almonds, to be precise.

Ya got me, I wasn't precise.

I know someone who noticed a really strong odor and couldn't figure out what it was or where it came from.
Later they were told by someone that it was cyanide, and that it was supposed to kill them.
And the person that told them was surprised because the person didn't die.
It was in 1994 and really, it's been so long, the person can't remember now exactly what it smells like,
they just had a really big whiff of it.

There is a God. Please trust me on that one. At least try and live your life like God sees all. Because He does.

disciple
12-05-2007, 02:11 PM
Got book, chapter, and verse for where in the bible you found this? Cause it looks like youre attributing this to Jesus himself, but I dont recall Jesus saying most of these things in the Bible.

You are right; this quote was taken from outside the Bible. It is however a true quote from an authentic source. Now the reason I left out the reference is because it is an extremely controversial subject, and I did not want to divert from what we are doing here ie. support Ron Paul's election.

In due time, however, I will reveal the source if needs be.

ProBlue33
12-05-2007, 02:22 PM
I find these comments to be most interesting from Ron Paul, from a recent interview this month.

"Religion happens to be very important to me, and there are lots of bad things that comes from religious values and religious beliefs.....The constitution is very clear there is to be no organized religion.":eek:

Now that I find very interesting, and he believes in both bible and God.

What you need to ask yourself is how would God use somebody with that viewpoint in the future? And why would he protect a ruler with that perspective?

Mark
12-05-2007, 02:23 PM
No, it won't be a Ron Paul presidency that will lead to such scenario, and I know what you are shooting at. The end- times scenario or rather the approaching "Day of the Lord" was set in motion by the election of Bush Jr.in the year 2000.

Just keep your eyes open for the arrival of the two witnesses, Enoch and Elijah.

Actually, other than Jesus, Enoch is my favorite person in the Bible.
I've used the "nickname" Emac for many years, mac are my initials, E is for Enoch.

Mark is such a common name, and since I've always admired Enoch for being so close to God,
In the spiritual realm I use the nickname Enoch. It commands respect from the spirits.

ValidusCustodiae
12-05-2007, 02:26 PM
Amos 3:6
Shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it?

Luke 19:27 (Jesus speaking)
But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

If God created everything, then any "injustice" that exists is also created and designed by God. You can't have it both ways.

Mark
12-05-2007, 02:26 PM
Agree.

I think God is watching to see what we do to fix injustices.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

Mark
12-05-2007, 02:32 PM
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. —Isaiah 45:7



The Amplified Bible makes the meaning clearer.

I form the light and create darkness, I make peace [national well-being] and I create [physical] evil (calamity);

I am the Lord, Who does all these things.

The Dane
12-05-2007, 02:36 PM
God is a non-interventionist.

... a Classic

But he makes exceptions when people ask him to, though. ;)

Mark
12-05-2007, 02:38 PM
Well, God didnt intervene when those kids got molested in all those churches. :rolleyes:

Do you know everything that happened? That some intervention didn't happen?
That it could have been worse?
That's it's been revealed now instead of still going on to the extent it was?

Do you even know there is a God? Do you even believe there is a Creator?

Tell us what God has done. We're listening, since you seem to think you know.

Mark
12-05-2007, 02:42 PM
I find these comments to be most interesting from Ron Paul, from a recent interview this month.

"Religion happens to be very important to me, and there are lots of bad things that comes from religious values and religious beliefs.....The constitution is very clear there is to be no organized religion.":eek:

Now that I find very interesting, and he believes in both bible and God.

What you need to ask yourself is how would God use somebody with that viewpoint in the future? And why would he protect a ruler with that perspective?
Organized STATE Religion. There's not to be an "Official" State Religion. Dictated by the State. (Gov)

Voluntaryist
12-05-2007, 03:59 PM
There is a God. Please trust me on that one. At least try and live your life like God sees all. Because He does.

You better watch out, you better not pout, you better not cry Im telling you why. Jesus Christ is coming to town.

He sees you when youre sleeping, he knows when youre awake, he knows if youve been bad or good so be good for goodness sake!

Voluntaryist
12-05-2007, 04:02 PM
The Amplified Bible makes the meaning clearer.

I form the light and create darkness, I make peace [national well-being] and I create [physical] evil (calamity);

I am the Lord, Who does all these things.

The Hebrew word for "evil" and "calamity" is the word "ra". And in the original text, they use the word "ra". God explicitly takes credit for the creation of evil, calamity, and all the other nasty unpleasantness that we see so much of every day.

Voluntaryist
12-05-2007, 04:10 PM
Do you know everything that happened? That some intervention didn't happen?
That it could have been worse?

Well, perhaps god intervened in the creation of sex laws in order to set a statute of limitations in order to protect his precious, precious priests.


That's it's been revealed now instead of still going on to the extent it was?

If god did intervene, it was more likely that he intervened before the abuses took place, in terms of setting the stage. He prevented the victims from coming forward until decades later, when they were adults, and after most of the Priests went to heaven already, and those who were still alive were protected by the statute of limitations.


Do you even know there is a God? Do you even believe there is a Creator?

No. According to the law of conservation of matter/energy, aka the first law of thermodynamics (which is what we use to get the equation E=mc2), the universe cannot be created nor destroyed.

To say there is a creator is nonsensical, because the universe is not something that ever began to exist. It is only time itself that is temporal as it is a property of the matter and energy of which the universe is comprised. So, it is time that has a beginning, and not the universe itself.


Tell us what God has done. We're listening, since you seem to think you know.

Hes done just as much as leprechauns, the tooth fairy, and santa claus has done.

Okay hold on a sec. I think Im contributing to the derailing of this thread and that was not my intention. Im just the kind of guy who loves to debate about god and religion.

Let me me make it clear just in case it wasnt so far: I am an atheist. Im a rather vocal atheist and in my sig you can find a link to my atheist blog, "Kill The Afterlife".

But what I want to get to here is that Ron Paul is a uniter, not a divider. I may argue with the Christians and other theists here about whether or not God exists, but I want you to know that I stand side by side with you in support of a Christian candidate, Ron Paul. Paul is the only one we can trust to let theist and atheist alike live in peace. Paul will guarantee the freedom of all of us to worship as much or as little as we see fit.

Suzu
12-05-2007, 08:40 PM
Now it's abundantly clear why talking about religion is a bad idea.

Here are a few comments on The Book of Genesis:

# God creates light and separates light from darkness, and day from night, on the first day. Yet he didn't make the light producing objects (the sun and the stars) until the fourth day (1:14-19). 1:3-5

# God spends one-sixth of his entire creative effort (the second day) working on a solid firmament. This strange structure, which God calls heaven, is intended to separate the higher waters from the lower waters. 1:6-8

# Plants are made on the third day before there was a sun to drive their photosynthetic processes (1:14-19). 1:11

# In an apparent endorsement of astrology, God places the sun, moon, and stars in the firmament so that they can be used "for signs". This, of course, is exactly what astrologers do: read "the signs" in the Zodiac in an effort to predict what will happen on Earth. 1:14

# "He made the stars also." God spends a day making light (before making the stars) and separating light from darkness; then, at the end of a hard day's work, and almost as an afterthought, he makes the trillions of stars. 1:16

# "And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth." 1:17

# God commands us to "be fruitful and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over ... every living thing that moveth upon the earth." 1:28

# "I have given you every herb ... and every tree ... for meat." 1:29

# Even God gets tired sometimes. 2:2

# A tale of two trees: "The tree of life ... and the tree of knowledge of good and evil." 2:9

# God makes the animals and parades them before Adam to see if any would strike his fancy. But none seem to have what it takes to please him. (Although he was tempted to go for the sheep.) After making the animals, God has Adam name them all. The naming of several million species must have kept Adam busy for a while. 2:18-20

# God's clever, talking serpent. 3:1

# God walks and talks (to himself?) in the garden, and plays a little hide and seek with Adam and Eve. 3:8-11

# God curses the serpent. From now on the serpent will crawl on his belly and eat dust. One wonders how he got around before -- by hopping on his tail, perhaps? But snakes don't eat dust, do they? 3:14

# God curses the ground and causes thorns and thistles to grow. 3:17-18

# God kills some animals and makes some skin coats for Adam and Eve. 3:21

# God expels Adam and Eve from the garden before they get a chance to eat from that other tree -- the tree of life. God knows that if they do that, they well become "like one of us" and live forever. 3:22-24

# Cain is worried after killing Abel and says, "Every one who finds me shall slay me." This is a strange concern since there were only two other humans alive at the time -- his parents! 4:14

# "And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD." 4:16

# "And Cain knew his wife." That's nice, but where the hell did she come from? 4:17

# Lamech kills a man and claims that since Cain's murderer would be punished sevenfold, whoever murders him will be punished seventy-seven fold. That sounds fair. 4:23-24

# "And to Seth ... was born a son." Where'd he find his wife? 4:26

# God created a man and a woman, and he "called their name Adam." So the woman's name was Adam, too! 5:2

# The first men had incredibly long life spans. 5:5, 5:8, 5:11, 5:14, 5:17, 5:20, 5:23, 5:27, 5:31, 9:29

# Enoch doesn't die he just ascends into heaven. 5:21-24

# When Lamech was born, nine generations were alive at once. Adam, Seth, Enos, Cainan, Mahalaleel, Jared, Enoch, Methuselah, and Lamech were all alive at the time of Lamech's birth. Adam lived to see his great-great-great-great-great-great-grandson. 5:25

# When Noah was 500 years old, he had three sons.
[Three sons in one year? Was that with one (nameless) wife or several?] 5:32

I don't want to make too long of a post... If you want to read more, go to Skeptics Annotated Bible website (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/abs/long.htm).

Revolution9
12-05-2007, 09:29 PM
Originally Posted by Revolution9
"What is IT that sustains the motions of the heavens in their course..."

Hawkeyenick wrote and posted giant pics of pretty stars
"It's called gravity..

I have a better question for you? This is one galaxy, EVERY SINGLE PIXEL OF LIGHT IS A STAR, it has millions of stars and planets that go with each star"..

Well goody gmdrops. Call me a fascinated kiddiegarter kid. Actually scientifically speaking it is not gravity but electric charge and velocity with the tachyon field that sustains the course and not gravity. Gravity is an effect.

Philosophically speaking what you have done is simply pointed a finger at the moon and thought the finger was the moon.

HTH
Randy

Suzu
12-05-2007, 11:34 PM
There is a God. Please trust me on that one. At least try and live your life like God sees all.

That's called Pascal's Wager (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager). I ain't a bettin' person.

Mark
12-06-2007, 04:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark http://www.ronpaulforums.com/gfx_RedWhiteBlue/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?p=535750#post535750)
There is a God. Please trust me on that one. At least try and live your life like God sees all.


That's called Pascal's Wager (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager). I ain't a bettin' person.

No, it's called "what I said."

I did say "Please". ;) I didn't say that you had to. And you can't say that you weren't told.

ForLiberty-RonPaul
12-06-2007, 04:48 AM
http://photos-889.ll.facebook.com/photos-ll-sctm/v171/30/89/666581889/n666581889_480492_9127.jpg

Lexx78
12-06-2007, 06:02 AM
lol :D

eloquensanity
12-06-2007, 06:21 AM
God is testing the people as who will stand up for humanity and for truth and justice, and who will follow the path of lies and oppression. The wheat and the chaff, the lambs and the goats are being separated as we speak before the day harvest. But He will intervene in due time and I suspect it will be soon.

Thats what I think too, and I think thats why the phenomenon is becoming global.
:)