Students refusing to pay their federal loans wrote to the Department of Education

[aGameOfThrones]

Fifteen students are refusing to pay back federal student loans taken out to attend schools owned by Corinthian Colleges, Inc., a network of for-profit colleges located across the US and in Canada.

The students — who refer to themselves as the Corinthian 15 — created a website where they've published a letter they wrote to the Department of Education asking for loan forgiveness.

All 15 also tell their own personal stories on the website.

In the letter, the students identify themselves as "people living paycheck to paycheck, single mothers, and young people just starting out."

They tell the Department, "... We trusted you to ensure that the education system in this country would do so. But Corinthian took advantage of our dreams and targeted us to make a profit. You let it happen, and now you cash in."


Here's the full letter published on their website:



TO THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION:
19 February, 2015

Who are we? We are the first generation made poor by the business of education.

We are people living paycheck to paycheck, single mothers, and young people just starting out. We wanted an education because we were driven to learn and to achieve a better life for ourselves and for our families.

We trusted that education would lead to a better life. And we trusted you to ensure that the education system in this country would do so. But Corinthian took advantage of our dreams and targeted us to make a profit. You let it happen, and now you cash in.

Each month you force us to make payments into an immoral system that profits from our aspirations.

We paid dearly for degrees that have led to unemployment or to jobs that don't pay a living wage. We can't and won't pay any longer.

Repayment plans presented as a helping hand simply aren't good enough. The wrong done to us is deeper than that.

We are not alone in this fight. Corinthian's predatory empire pushed hundreds of thousands into a debt trap. But even beyond for-profit schools, tens of millions of students are in more debt than they can ever repay. And you are the debt collector, with powers beyond a payday lender’s wildest dreams.

To the Department of Education and to the lenders, servicers, and guarantee agencies who have stolen our futures, we say: enough! Erase these loans.

To current and former college students across the country, we say: we stand with you to demand the end of a higher education system that profits from all our dreams. Join our fight.

We won't pay. We are the Corinthian Fifteen,


http://finance.yahoo.com/news/heres-letter-15-students-refusing-154329062.html

[asurfaholic]

They want a free education in a school they didn't care enough to research in a degree program they didn't care to research.

These people have no right to complain about the debt they brought onto themselves. These are the welfare 15.

Im making 6 figures and I didn't go to college. I could have gone but didn't see any benefit in it. I do real work in a real field that has a real need for more people like me. Oh, I never asked anyone for anything. Keep my head up and a smile on my face, and do even the most tedious and dirty jobs with a positive attitude with only the top quality completion of the job as my goal.

It's really that simple. Throw these 15 in jail for defrauding the govt.

[morfeeis]

On one hand i'm like you got the debt you freaking pay for it, on the other hand i'm like take your living wage verbiage and shove it up your ass. But on the left leg i'm like damn i hate the banking system and on the other leg i'm like if there wasn't any federal loan guarantees than a college education would be a lot more affordable.

But still; i cant get past the wording they use, fuck those guys if they are spending on bullcrap and then crying like i think they are.

[morfeeis]

It's really that simple. Throw these 15 in jail for defrauding the govt.

I agree with everything else but that last part, they fuck us every day, sometimes you gotta share .....

[JK/SEA]

They want a free education in a school they didn't care enough to research in a degree program they didn't care to research.

These people have no right to complain about the debt they brought onto themselves. These are the welfare 15.

Im making 6 figures and I didn't go to college. I could have gone but didn't see any benefit in it. I do real work in a real field that has a real need for more people like me. Oh, I never asked anyone for anything. Keep my head up and a smile on my face, and do even the most tedious and dirty jobs with a positive attitude with only the top quality completion of the job as my goal.

It's really that simple. Throw these 15 in jail for defrauding the govt.

too bad not everyone is as smart as you isn't it?...

government loves it when you fuck up, and then we get people like you defending the government....

would you say tuition is too low or too high?...

[oyarde]

These miscreants will likely end up being made an example of . Sorry they had no person to tell them not to borrow from the gubmit .

[oyarde]

I need to set up an advice column for youngsters .

[AuH20]

On one hand, you have to feel for them for being deceived. On the other, you wonder if they can survive in this 'dog eat dog' world if they are this gullible. I was starting to see through this stuff in my late teens deductively.

[AuH20]

These miscreants will likely end up being made an example of . Sorry they had no person to tell them not to borrow from the gubmit .

This explains what happened.

http://youtu.be/U-apLT6Ot3s?t=2m4s

[tod evans]

I need to set up an advice column for youngsters .

I remember being "young".......

I knew everything then!

[nobody's_hero]

I need to set up an advice column for youngsters .

And they'd need to read it.

[asurfaholic]

I agree with everything else but that last part, they fuck us every day, sometimes you gotta share .....

So a person takes a personal loan to start a business then subsequently because the idea of the business was based on no foresight or plan, the business fails. So you think it's ok when this person says well damn this bank who is running a scam by offering loans to me when I could fail- I refuse to pay!

Of course not, this would be morally wrong and a crime Where the bank is a victim and deserving to be compensated.

Two wrongs don't make a right, you can't willingly take a service, even a government service, then willingly refuse to pay back according to the terms you agreed upon. This is also a crime, and like it or not, there is really a victim.

So if you are against the DOE don't take a loan from them then act all high and mighty once you realize YOU made a mistake.

I have no patience or sympathy for hypocrits. Fraud is fraud.

[asurfaholic]

too bad not everyone is as smart as you isn't it?...

government loves it when you fuck up, and then we get people like you defending the government....

would you say tuition is too low or too high?...

There's a difference between defending morals and defending the govt. Stealing is stealing. Two wrongs don't make a right, and I got no love for these morons who asked for a loan from the federal govt, then after they made poor college choices find themselves looking to get out of the mess THEY PUT THEMSELVES IN TO.

[phill4paul]

There's a difference between defending morals and defending the govt. Stealing is stealing. Two wrongs don't make a right, and I got no love for these morons who asked for a loan from the federal govt, then after they made poor college choices find themselves looking to get out of the mess THEY PUT THEMSELVES IN TO.

While I agree that a man should pay his debts I am against predatory lending that is encouraged by the government and its system. If the government had been completely out of this transaction then I would be in agreement. The public education system has been a brainwashing mind-fuck on this generation. 24/7 they were told that by going to college was the ticket to the good life. That there were jobs out there for them if they only had a college education.
Who here has not anticipated this? These companies made loans knowing that these loans could not be repaid because they have a bail-out waiting in the wings.

[Anti Federalist]

While I agree that a man should pay his debts I am against predatory lending that is encouraged by the government and its system. If the government had been completely out of this transaction then I would be in agreement. The public education system has been a brainwashing mind-fuck on this generation. 24/7 they were told that by going to college was the ticket to the good life. That there were jobs out there for them if they only had a college education.
Who here has not anticipated this? These companies made loans knowing that these loans could not be repaid because they have a bail-out waiting in the wings.

This.

And once again, the long suffering taxpayer is on the hook.

[Anti Federalist]

To current and former college students across the country, we say: we stand with you to demand the end of a higher education system that profits from all our dreams. Join our fight.

Insert "WANTS MOAR GOVERNMENT - MOAR GOVERNMENT" gif here.

[thoughtomator]

this is where the concept of odious debt comes into play

[jllundqu]

I'm just pissed that my student loans are at a high interest rate and my wife's from about 10 years ago are like 1.3%.... WTH?

[AuH20]

I'm just pissed that my student loans are at a high interest rate and my wife's from about 10 years ago are like 1.3%.... WTH?

Sounds like you have a political movement to start. :) Male rate equality.

[heavenlyboy34]

So a person takes a personal loan to start a business then subsequently because the idea of the business was based on no foresight or plan, the business fails. So you think it's ok when this person says well damn this bank who is running a scam by offering loans to me when I could fail- I refuse to pay!

Of course not, this would be morally wrong and a crime Where the bank is a victim and deserving to be compensated.

Two wrongs don't make a right, you can't willingly take a service, even a government service, then willingly refuse to pay back according to the terms you agreed upon. This is also a crime, and like it or not, there is really a victim.

So if you are against the DOE don't take a loan from them then act all high and mighty once you realize YOU made a mistake.

I have no patience or sympathy for hypocrits. Fraud is fraud.
Businesses can be liquidated to pay back lenders. Schooling can't. There are plenty of good criticisms of this bunch, but you've chosen (probably) the weakest one.

[heavenlyboy34]

While I agree that a man should pay his debts I am against predatory lending that is encouraged by the government and its system. If the government had been completely out of this transaction then I would be in agreement. The public education system has been a brainwashing mind-fuck on this generation. 24/7 they were told that by going to college was the ticket to the good life. That there were jobs out there for them if they only had a college education.
Who here has not anticipated this? These companies made loans knowing that these loans could not be repaid because they have a bail-out waiting in the wings.
This^^ Let's also not forget the regime's brilliant anti-discrimination laws that forced employers into demanding degrees for jobs that previously didn't in the first place because intelligence testing is illegal.

[UWDude]

So a person takes a personal loan to start a business then subsequently because the idea of the business was based on no foresight or plan, the business fails. So you think it's ok when this person says well damn this bank who is running a scam by offering loans to me when I could fail- I refuse to pay!

Of course not, this would be morally wrong and a crime Where the bank is a victim and deserving to be compensated.

Two wrongs don't make a right, you can't willingly take a service, even a government service, then willingly refuse to pay back according to the terms you agreed upon. This is also a crime, and like it or not, there is really a victim.

So if you are against the DOE don't take a loan from them then act all high and mighty once you realize YOU made a mistake.

I have no patience or sympathy for hypocrits. Fraud is fraud.

Actually, this happens all the time. It's called filing for bankruptcy.

I intend to pay my loans back as slowly as possible, and invest in real assets. Eventually inflation or downfall will cancel my debt, paying it forward and fast would be retarded, (I realized this after paying about 3000 ahead of schedule).

I'd hate to be one of the suckers that paid off my loans, only to have inflation, downfall, a bankruptcy option, or politics make it so that I have nothing, while those who didn't pay have everything they got in the meantime. It's a dog-eat-dog world.

And I really don't care about the fiat system, or my obligation to the bailed out, too big to fail banks, who will take far more than me in taxes to pay off the national debt interest.

[euphemia]

Did they not know they had not saved up money for college? Did someone hold a gun and make them sign up for a loan? It's funny. I feel like I have been robbed at gunpoint every time I look at my pay stub.

Edited to add: I am up to here with people whining about being victims of society or banks or whatever. They had choices. The answer is not to victimize everyone else.

[asurfaholic]

Businesses can be liquidated to pay back lenders. Schooling can't. There are plenty of good criticisms of this bunch, but you've chosen (probably) the weakest one.

Does it matter if you get a loan to pay for a car or finance your dream? A loan is a loan. Its an agreement where you are well aware that you are to pay back, regardless of what happens next.

Its a shame that the "weakest" argument against this group is pointing out the lack of morals coming from the group. I really dislike using the term morals when arguing that someone is doing something good or bad, because I realize that not everyone shares the same morals. But at some point there is a line that needs to be drawn where it becomes a real crime, and just because the person committing the crime is doing it against the government doesn't make it any less a crime. Morally it is wrong to steal - doesn't matter really what you do on Sundays.

But I think you may be focusing on the lesser of my point- Some people seem to think that these people should be let off the hook because they were "brainwashed" or whatever from a "very young age" to think that they NEED the government or higher education. But lets be real. These were young adults when they went off and applied for college. I dont think I saw in the article what their major was, but seems that half their complaint was that they got a major LOL and couldn't see it into real success past college. Who's fault is that? But even before that, these people embarked upon a journey that involved living in a situation where they would be minimally productive at the cost of obtaining some extra education. To that end, you would think that someone should have taught these people how to add and subtract. So easy to do with a calculator. But they didn't do this, they just planned to go ahead with whatever visions of grandeur they could dream up and embark upon a quest for college at everyone else's expense. This was their plan all along. So now they want out of their loans because "the DOE and colleges profit" off of people like that.

Well too bad, and pay the damn loans back.

[sparebulb]

I will have sympathy for the Corinthian Fifteen at such time that the Southern Poverty Law Center places them on their list of extremist organizations and live in fear of a midnight visit from the Dept. of Education SWAT team.

Until then, they can go pound sand.

[CPUd]

On their site (https://debtcollective.org/studentstrike), they each tell their stories. A couple of them claim Everest took out loans in their name without their approval- a bit hard to believe, but if true, I could see their gripe if it was done in a way that was not transparent.

For a lot of them, it looks like they were partially through their respective programs when the school went under. Because this is Everest, like 90% of their credits won't transfer to other schools' programs that have more mainstream accreditations. Some others had just graduated when the school went under, but they had to clear their account with the school before they award the degree. So these folks walk away with nothing but useless credits. But they should at least share the responsibility for getting into a program that has useless or nonexistent accreditations.

The ones who thought the school was under some kind of obligation to get them a job should just chalk this up as a very expensive life lesson.

[heavenlyboy34]

Does it matter if you get a loan to pay for a car or finance your dream? A loan is a loan. Its an agreement where you are well aware that you are to pay back, regardless of what happens next.

Its a shame that the "weakest" argument against this group is pointing out the lack of morals coming from the group. I really dislike using the term morals when arguing that someone is doing something good or bad, because I realize that not everyone shares the same morals. But at some point there is a line that needs to be drawn where it becomes a real crime, and just because the person committing the crime is doing it against the government doesn't make it any less a crime. Morally it is wrong to steal - doesn't matter really what you do on Sundays.

But I think you may be focusing on the lesser of my point- Some people seem to think that these people should be let off the hook because they were "brainwashed" or whatever from a "very young age" to think that they NEED the government or higher education. But lets be real. These were young adults when they went off and applied for college. I dont think I saw in the article what their major was, but seems that half their complaint was that they got a major LOL and couldn't see it into real success past college. Who's fault is that? But even before that, these people embarked upon a journey that involved living in a situation where they would be minimally productive at the cost of obtaining some extra education. To that end, you would think that someone should have taught these people how to add and subtract. So easy to do with a calculator. But they didn't do this, they just planned to go ahead with whatever visions of grandeur they could dream up and embark upon a quest for college at everyone else's expense. This was their plan all along. So now they want out of their loans because "the DOE and colleges profit" off of people like that.

Well too bad, and pay the damn loans back.

No, not all loans are created equal. That's why in non-cronyist industries/economies lenders expect collateral. Say you're a lender. An 18 y/o asks you to lend 10,000-20,000 FRNs to major in women's studies. He offers nothing as collateral should he default. He graduates into an economy which can't offer him a job and he lacks the personalty traits to be an entrepreneur. You gave away thousands of FRNs to a dumbass kid on a gamble that he might somehow figure out how to repay. That's just plain dumb lending practice.


But I think you may be focusing on the lesser of my point- Some people seem to think that these people should be let off the hook because they were "brainwashed" or whatever from a "very young age" to think that they NEED the government or higher education. But lets be real. These were young adults when they went off and applied for college. I dont think I saw in the article what their major was, but seems that half their complaint was that they got a major LOL and couldn't see it into real success past college. Who's fault is that? But even before that, these people embarked upon a journey that involved living in a situation where they would be minimally productive at the cost of obtaining some extra education. To that end, you would think that someone should have taught these people how to add and subtract. So easy to do with a calculator. But they didn't do this, they just planned to go ahead with whatever visions of grandeur they could dream up and embark upon a quest for college at everyone else's expense. This was their plan all along. So now they want out of their loans because "the DOE and colleges profit" off of people like that. Well too bad, and pay the damn loans back.
You're right, it is easy for a rational person to think through consequences of taking out a loan. But, few 18 y/o's are so rational. AND, as I mentioned before, a sane lender would recognize that the borrower is an unwise/irrational investment-and demand collateral accordingly. The lenders took an insanely dumb gamble because Uncle Sam made them greedy. As with other types of loans, let the lenders eat the loss for being stupid. The free market can be a cruel mistress to the greedy and foolish.

(IMO, people ought to pay back the loans like I am, but it's rational to tell predatory lenders to take a hike as in every other walk of life)

[heavenlyboy34]

Did they not know they had not saved up money for college? Did someone hold a gun and make them sign up for a loan? It's funny. I feel like I have been robbed at gunpoint every time I look at my pay stub.

Edited to add: I am up to here with people whining about being victims of society or banks or whatever. They had choices. The answer is not to victimize everyone else.
That's interesting. We can say something similar about S.S. Do any adults really not know that S.Security is not a big trust fund in D.C.? Srsly? Why do they whine so whenever someone wants to reform or "sunset" the program?

sheesh. Institutionalized socialism is silly enough to make a guy crazy...

[euphemia]

That's interesting. We can say something similar about S.S. Do any adults really not know that S.Security is not a big trust fund in D.C.? Srsly? Why do they whine so whenever someone wants to reform or "sunset" the program?

sheesh. Institutionalized socialism is silly enough to make a guy crazy...


You won't hear me whining. We do without a lot now to make sure our private retirement accounts have something in them. We don't expect to ever draw Social Security. Didn't retirees take a math class or two when they were in school? They should know that I can't support them and me when they demand a discount for everything.

[VIDEODROME]

I felt I made a reasonable choice focusing my studies on Cyber Security. Everyone has been hyping that field. Unfortunately, there are no entry level computer security jobs that I've seen. So am I one of many who just made a bad choice or was given bullshit advice?

I've been deferring and delaying my payments for half a year. I finally got a job doing phone tech support which kind of sucks but it's something and my foot is in the door now. Maybe I can claw my way up the ladder. It has been freakin hard for me to get any kind of tech job at all though.

I do think a lot of IT hopefulls went to college and have been screwed. They put in their time, but the college curriculum is mostly a waste of time at least as far as IT goes. In my program, I had to classes in Firewalls and not once did I configure a Firewall. We just read about management and disaster recovery plans. Also, from my experience, colleges are being damn lazy when it comes to following through on promised Job Placement assistance.

It seems like a lot of students are being ripped off and the government as the lender is being ripped off. Perhaps it's the government who should be threatening to withhold payment to the colleges if they clearly fail to live up to promises the Admissions people give to students.

[amy31416]

I need to set up an advice column for youngsters .

You really should consider it. I'd contribute to that column.

[VIDEODROME]

Basically, this seems like one of many cases where the government cranks out checks for other people to pay. As the lender or even investor, they should be looking for results if supposedly this is all for a better education workforce with more people employed in good jobs.

Sure a lot of kids will waste time "finding themselves" in college taking 6 years to finish what should be a 2 year degree, but many others are earnestly following the advice given to them. They're doing the work expecting this expensive piece of paper will get them a good job, but industry wants nothing to do with training noobies. They hold out for experience, because they know college kids have no experience with enterprise level equipment or software.

Just sayin a lot of kids really do the research, but have been severely mislead. Or the truth is that the industry they aimed for does have a high demand for jobs, but is only interested in industry veterans with 5-10 years experience. Noobies are expected to just invent their own experience somehow while somehow dealing with bills and keeping gas in their car.

It's hard to even volunteer anymore though, because people don't want someone that lacks experience to break their equipment. Also, for some stupid reason, I even talked to the V. A. Hospital and they only one people still in college doing official college internships, not someone out of college. Bunch of bullshit.

[aGameOfThrones]

Basically, this seems like one of many cases where the government cranks out checks for other people to pay. As the lender or even investor, they should be looking for results if supposedly this is all for a better education workforce with more people employed in good jobs.

Sure a lot of kids will waste time "finding themselves" in college taking 6 years to finish what should be a 2 year degree, but many others are earnestly following the advice given to them. They're doing the work expecting this expensive piece of paper will get them a good job, but industry wants nothing to do with training noobies. They hold out for experience, because they know college kids have no experience with enterprise level equipment or software.

Just sayin a lot of kids really do the research, but have been severely mislead. Or the truth is that the industry they aimed for does have a high demand for jobs, but is only interested in industry veterans with 5-10 years experience. Noobies are expected to just invent their own experience somehow while somehow dealing with bills and keeping gas in their car.

It's hard to even volunteer anymore though, because people don't want someone that lacks experience to break their equipment. Also, for some stupid reason, I even talked to the V. A. Hospital and they only one people still in college doing official college internships, not someone out of college. Bunch of bullshit.

That's the MFing truth.

[heavenlyboy34]

That's the MFing truth.

A-MEN!

[The Free Hornet]

Don't lend what you can't afford to lose. The primary beneficiaries here are a bloated academia. I'd like to see where this group goes. Even unprincipled opposition is more than the GOP has mustered.

[phill4paul]

Don't lend what you can't afford to lose.

A motto taught to me loooong ago.


No, not all loans are created equal. That's why in non-cronyist industries/economies lenders expect collateral. Say you're a lender. An 18 y/o asks you to lend 10,000-20,000 FRNs to major in women's studies. He offers nothing as collateral should he default. He graduates into an economy which can't offer him a job and he lacks the personalty traits to be an entrepreneur. You gave away thousands of FRNs to a dumbass kid on a gamble that he might somehow figure out how to repay. That's just plain dumb lending practice.


You're right, it is easy for a rational person to think through consequences of taking out a loan. But, few 18 y/o's are so rational. AND, as I mentioned before, a sane lender would recognize that the borrower is an unwise/irrational investment-and demand collateral accordingly. The lenders took an insanely dumb gamble because Uncle Sam made them greedy. As with other types of loans, let the lenders eat the loss for being stupid. The free market can be a cruel mistress to the greedy and foolish.

(IMO, people ought to pay back the loans like I am, but it's rational to tell predatory lenders to take a hike as in every other walk of life)

I'll not shed a tear for the lenders that hopped on the education bandwagon knowing it was an unwise investment. No more so than the housing lenders that hopped on the same bandwagon.

And like the housing lenders they did so because they are expecting a bail out of similar proportions. The lenders planned on this as a safety.

But some would rather excoriate the kids that have a degree that can't find a job above minimum wage, in an economy wrecked by government policy, than the lending institutions that are hoping, and rightfully so, that the government will pull their ass out of the fire.

[aGameOfThrones]

Even for a crappy job they are asking for 1 or 2 years of experience. How are you going to get experience when nobody will hire you without experience? Fuck!

[heavenlyboy34]

Even for a crappy job they are asking for 1 or 2 years of experience. How are you going to get experience when nobody will hire you without experience? Fuck!

Work for nothing, of course! Servitude FTW! :rolleyes: /sarc

[kcchiefs6465]

They want a free education in a school they didn't care enough to research in a degree program they didn't care to research.

These people have no right to complain about the debt they brought onto themselves. These are the welfare 15.

Im making 6 figures and I didn't go to college. I could have gone but didn't see any benefit in it. I do real work in a real field that has a real need for more people like me. Oh, I never asked anyone for anything. Keep my head up and a smile on my face, and do even the most tedious and dirty jobs with a positive attitude with only the top quality completion of the job as my goal.

It's really that simple. Throw these 15 in jail for defrauding the govt.
While I understand the sentiment and agree with you in large part, the educational system these children were forced into stressed the importance (even the need) of college, mandated that they sit down and explore possible career paths with regards to 'higher education', and lied about the figures.

I remember it well. Taken from class, the whole group, put on computers, taken to a government website that had charts and graphs about various fields and their supposed expected growth.

The government defrauds you by debasing the currency to finance these waste of times. Who really ought to be put in jail?

Furthermore, there are no crimes against the state. There are simply crimes. Now while they should be repaying what they took, as well as bankruptcy laws being applicable to their financial situation, they defrauded no one. The institution that pimps overpriced and state licensed education on the naive and easily manipulated should be addressed.

It will be near a whole generation in debt and the bubble bursting will probably collapse this economy. Surely once they have the votes to say, through legislation, that they will not pay, the legislation will be written and it will pass (the people of America will pay--the banks bailed out).

I hear the train a coming...

[kcchiefs6465]

And that's before I even get started on government guaranteed loans. The whole thing is a cluster fuck and is quite frankly what will drive this country into a socialist despotism.

[kcchiefs6465]

Even for a crappy job they are asking for 1 or 2 years of experience. How are you going to get experience when nobody will hire you without experience? Fuck!
You volunteer. You watch videos and learn about that which you are trying to make yourself hireable for. You speak to people in the industry. You'd be amazed at how aware many are. You can imagine my annoyance when the pittance they take from me is siphoned. Now consider the annoyance of those who write checks in the tens of thousands of dollars to the government annually.

There are countless ways to make yourself more employable. Once you get your foot in the door, you gain a few references, you showcase work ethic and dependability, the sky is the limit. Now of course other factors are at play but regardless, being successful is a state of mind, mainly. Education and a willingness to work are the most surefire ways to get noticed. I've talked to my boss's boss's boss in depth about issues I see. All within the proper channels and as well, there is a time and place to make a point.

For instance if I was going to apply at a machine shop manufacturing AR uppers, as the business is booming and there are quite a few shops in the area, I'd go to Youtube and watch a few hours on the process. I'd know shop terminology and would be able to speak on the subject with some confidence. I'd go to forums and ask questions on particulars that I did not understand. I would talk to people I know who run or have ran CNC mills. I'd go to the library and check out a book on the matter. I'd make myself friendly to the locals who participate in such employment. Bars. Frequent a few near the work site. Talk to people. Know the issues. For instance, with said employment avenue, one should be versed on firearms and firearms legislation. This is just one possible avenue in a jobs market that has been completely degraded through legislation and regulation, as well as the tax system.

I find often (and of course I'm not referring to you) that the people who speak about jobs being hard to come by, etc. are the people who advocate for the laws that make such a relative truth so.

[heavenlyboy34]

You volunteer. You watch videos and learn about that which you are trying to make yourself hireable for. You speak to people in the industry. You'd be amazed at how aware many are. You can imagine my annoyance when the pittance they take from me is siphoned. Now consider the annoyance of those who write checks in the tens of thousands of dollars to the government annually.

There are countless ways to make yourself more employable. Once you get your foot in the door, you gain a few references, you showcase work ethic and dependability, the sky is the limit. Now of course other factors are at play but regardless, being successful is a state of mind, mainly. Education and a willingness to work are the most surefire ways to get noticed. I've talked to my boss's boss's boss in depth about issues I see. All within the proper channels and as well, there is a time and place to make a point.

For instance if I was going to apply at a machine shop manufacturing AR uppers, as the business is booming and there are quite a few shops in the area, I'd go to Youtube and watch a few hours on the process. I'd know shop terminology and would be able to speak on the subject with some confidence. I'd go to forums and ask questions on particulars that I did not understand. I would talk to people I know who run or have ran CNC mills. I'd go to the library and check out a book on the matter. I'd make myself friendly to the locals who participate in such employment. Bars. Frequent a few near the work site. Talk to people. Know the issues. For instance, with said employment avenue, one should be versed on firearms and firearms legislation. This is just one possible avenue in a jobs market that has been completely degraded through legislation and regulation, as well as the tax system.

I find often (and of course I'm not referring to you) that the people who speak about jobs being hard to come by, etc. are the people who advocate for the laws that make such a relative truth so.

That's all well and good for someone who has some kind of decent income stream or perhaps an undergrad living with family. For the average college grad/entry level person, exchanging labor and time for experience is a quick route to poverty because unless you're on the dole, you're going to accumulate debt faster than income. (gaining experience by working for nothing doesn't pay the bills) I thought about becoming a design intern/assistant, but at the school I went to it costs 3 credit hours, which ain't cheap. (something like 350 FRNs in 2008)

IMHO, the best future for the typical person lies in "Non-Jobs" rather than working for a company. See http://nonjob.org/ for more on "non-jobs".

[TheTexan]

IMHO, the best future for the typical person lies in "Non-Jobs" rather than working for a company. See http://nonjob.org/ for more on "non-jobs".

Can you give a summary of what a non-job is that doesn't require me to fill in a form, or listen to a 20 minute marketing video?

[heavenlyboy34]

Can you give a summary of what a non-job is that doesn't require me to fill in a form, or listen to a 20 minute marketing video?

I would be more inclined to do so in detail if you had been more polite than giving me a nasty -rep. :P I suppose a decent tl:dr version would be: turning something you love or enjoy doing into your job instead of working for someone else. This is typically something like what Elliot Hulse does-he started up his own gym to train athletes and people who just want to be fit.

[heavenlyboy34]

IDK why the website sucks now, but here's one of Elliot's videos on the subject that used to be there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxVLKvSkRf0&spfreload=10

[kcchiefs6465]

That's all well and good for someone who has some kind of decent income stream or perhaps an undergrad living with family. For the average college grad/entry level person, exchanging labor and time for experience is a quick route to poverty because unless you're on the dole, you're going to accumulate debt faster than income. (gaining experience by working for nothing doesn't pay the bills) I thought about becoming a design intern/assistant, but at the school I went to it costs 3 credit hours, which ain't cheap. (something like 350 FRNs in 2008)

IMHO, the best future for the typical person lies in "Non-Jobs" rather than working for a company. See http://nonjob.org/ for more on "non-jobs".
You don't have to be on the dole. Having someone in your life with an income is helpful, or even better having income coming in of your own, but it is not necessary.

Even with how completely distorted things are, there are still charities and churches etc. which will help one get clothes, a haircut, give them a place to shower, feed them, etc.

I didn't go as in-depth as I perhaps should have (most people aren't going to read more than a funny one liner anyways, so I was trying to keep it relatively brief).

There are fundamental problems with this current system that impede progress with regards to job creation. Anyone who does not believe me, I leave it simply as an eye opening experience to think of something you'd like to do and then research the regulations and cost of starting up said business in said sector. I thought I knew the breadth of it but it is really beyond one's wildest imagination. Take a simple lemonade stand and the regulations involved with that. Now imagine countless alphabet agencies applying their own regulations and interpretations of law and it is easy to see why productivity is stymied.

Not to mention they piss away capital on bombing helpless peasants as well as their virtually endless plethora of schemes and scams. They study duck dicks through the debasement of the currency, enact a minimum wage preventing many entry level opportunities, and tax the people upwards of 50 plus percent. Then it is, "Well why aren't there any jobs!?" As if one needs a crystal ball and Godly clairvoyance to recognize the issue's integral to this system. One in nine of the employed work for the government. They make more off of the theft from people than the people who are stolen from themselves make. Of course it isn't going to work.

It is difficult to be concise and touch on the issue when so many things are at fault. I just recently met a guy who got hit with a $22,000 fine for not having an electrician's license. It's $25,000 per instance of not collecting the run off water from pressure washing. Each time an employee does not take at least a thirty minute lunch, it's $3,000. That's on the rather 'fair' end of their bureaucracy. Every city, county, state, and the federal government has their own regulations and 'laws'.... their own tax code.

The whole thing is ridiculous.

I remember someone here told me that there was no artificial barrier to entry with regards to manufacturing firearms--Someone who is very well versed on a lot of what I speak about. Needless to say, it took me all of ten seconds to find about ten artificial barriers to that particular market. The exact measurable effect on jobs will never be truly known.

[heavenlyboy34]

You don't have to be on the dole. Having someone in your life with an income is helpful, or even better having income coming in of your own, but it is not necessary.

Even with how completely distorted things are, there are still charities and churches etc. which will help one get clothes, a haircut, give them a place to shower, feed them, etc.

I didn't go as in-depth as I perhaps should have (most people aren't going to read more than a funny one liner anyways, so I was trying to keep it relatively brief).

There are fundamental problems with this current system that impede progress with regards to job creation. Anyone who does not believe me, I leave it simply as an eye opening experience to think of something you'd like to do and then research the regulations and cost of starting up said business in said sector. I thought I knew the breadth of it but it is really beyond one's wildest imagination. Take a simple lemonade stand and the regulations involved with that. Now imagine countless alphabet agencies applying their own regulations and interpretations of law and it is easy to see why productivity is stymied.

Not to mention they piss away capital on bombing helpless peasants as well as their virtually endless plethora of schemes and scams. They study duck dicks through the debasement of the currency, enact a minimum wage preventing many entry level opportunities, and tax the people upwards of 50 plus percent. Then it is, "Well why aren't there any jobs!?" As if one needs a crystal ball and Godly clairvoyance to recognize the issue's integral to this system. One in nine of the employed work for the government. They make more off of the theft from people than the people who are stolen from themselves make. Of course it isn't going to work.

It is difficult to be concise and touch on the issue when so many things are at fault. I just recently met a guy who got hit with a $22,000 fine for not having an electrician's license. It's $25,000 per instance of not collecting the run off water from pressure washing. Each time an employee does not take at least a thirty minute lunch, it's $3,000. That's on the rather 'fair' end of their bureaucracy. Every city, county, state, and the federal government has their own regulations and 'laws'.... their own tax code.

The whole thing is ridiculous.

I remember someone here told me that there was no artificial barrier to entry with regards to manufacturing firearms--Someone who is very well versed on a lot of what I speak about. Needless to say, it took me all of ten seconds to find about ten artificial barriers to that particular market. The exact measurable effect on jobs will never be truly known.
+rep for thoughtful and good post. :)

[angelatc]

They want a free education in a school they didn't care enough to research in a degree program they didn't care to research.



It's really that simple. Throw these 15 in jail for defrauding the govt.

Here's the kicker for me: they aren't really paying any interest.

The interest comes right off their taxable income. If you made $20,200 and paid $1,000 in interest, combined with the $6,200 exemption, your taxable income would only be $13,000 and you'd get a huge refund back.

[angelatc]

That's all well and good for someone who has some kind of decent income stream or perhaps an undergrad living with family. For the average college grad/entry level person, exchanging labor and time for experience is a quick route to poverty because unless you're on the dole, you're going to accumulate debt faster than income. (gaining experience by working for nothing doesn't pay the bills) I thought about becoming a design intern/assistant, but at the school I went to it costs 3 credit hours, which ain't cheap. (something like 350 FRNs in 2008)

IMHO, the best future for the typical person lies in "Non-Jobs" rather than working for a company. See http://nonjob.org/ for more on "non-jobs".

I agree 100% about finding your own work. Most of the services we hire are from people who used to be employees and are working off Craigslist. Our mechanic comes to the house. We do not have a garage, and he would work in the snow if I called him. I do not need my car that bad though, so I am not going to ask him to do that.

I did taxes for 2 women this year who both had husbands that left them with kids. Both of them started cleaning houses out of desperation, and both of them made over $25000 this year. It stands to be seen if they can take it to the next level.

My friend's husband was laid off in Florida 25 years ago and he started running ads in the little free paper for home handyman services. Today he employs 7 people, and most of his work is still generated by word of mouth.

[paleocon1]

..............................
Edited to add: I am up to here with people whining about being victims of society or banks or whatever. They had choices. The answer is not to victimize everyone else.

There are many who were in fact victimized by rent seeking banksters. The Answer is to confiscate the illgotten rent seeking personal and corporate gains. Use those funds to cover the State's expenses rather than taxes on the mundanes.